Jon Stewart & Rory Stewart on Trump’s Restructured Global Order | The Weekly Show

RORY STEWART: When I was running in opposition, I realized that the easiest way to win is you just say, this is all bullshit. These guys are idiots. They've got no idea what they're doing. JON STEWART: Hey, stop describing my show. That's my job. [THEME MUSIC]. Hello, everybody. Welcome once again. Weekly Show Podcast with Jon Stewart. My name is Jon Stewart. I'm actually the person in the intro. I don't know, it just worked out that way.

What a-- we are talking to you Wednesday, April 23. We always try and date it because of the speed. in which current events has been moving. It is exhausting. We are approaching the first hundred days of Donald Trump's. re-presidency and the first Congressional casualty, Mr. Dick Durbin. Senator Dick Durbin of Illinois. "Illi-noise"? Illinois.

I like to add the S. Although what would a plural? Illinois? Illinoises? I don't know. We'll figure it out. He said he's not going to seek re-election, and here's the shocking part. He's only been in Congress, I think, 40 some years, and he's only 80. To see a Senator self-deport at the ripe young age of 80? My God. My God, what have we become as a society.

as to drive these kinds of adolescent junior senators. from office? It's like watching someone declare. for the draft as a freshman. No, sir. You're not ready. You're not ready to go. You must mature. Generally fucked, as-- and the trade war is apparently now.

This is going to be such an interesting Houdini-esque. escape from these utterly disastrous. self-inflicted tariffs. You saw Trump today in a press conference. Well, now, you know China. They've got to make a deal. They've got to do it. And so because they have to make the deal. and because everybody's kissing my ass-- even. though no deals are done--. I'm probably just going to, you know, remove the tariffs at some point, having nothing to do with the fact. that yesterday I sat down with Target and Walmart and all.

the big box stores and they were like, you're fucking killing us. We are the only thing keeping the economy going. for cheap goods, and we will have nothing on our shelves. in, like, a week. You're going to see a run on toilet paper that. would make the COVID era panic seem like a stroll in the park. For God's sakes.

And somehow they'll pull off the feat. of saying this was the plan the whole time. and what a brilliant strategy it was to tank. the global economy for as long as he did, while still getting nothing out of it. Meanwhile, overseas, who the hell knows? Will the EU move towards China? Will Russia just be able to consume Ukraine in the way.

that they want to? We just have no idea. This is a failure on all levels. The first hundred days have been. nothing but sturm und drang and noise signifying nothing. And it doesn't have to be this way. So many of their policy goals could. be achievable in non-chaotic terms, and yet they seem incapable of playing that out. Fucking madness.

But we're going to get the view from Europe. today with our guest, which I'm very excited about. Quite a Renaissance gentleman that we have joining. us on the program today. Delighted to have him. [THEME MUSIC]. Ladies and gentlemen. Delighted today, the Stewart brothers. RORY STEWART: That's it. JON STEWART: Reunited. Rory Stewart, née Leibowitz, brothers. from a different mother. Co-host of The Rest is Politics, but truly, an enlightenment gentleman.

Author, former MP, former minister. We're excited to have you discussing. things with us today. Rory, you are-- obviously, you know, your career as an author. and as a minister, you're so ensconced in politics. as well as, you know, broadcasting. and all these other things. We just thought you'd be a great person. to give us a broad perspective on the view. from overseas towards America.

As you know, America, we're very shy. We don't like people to think about us. RORY STEWART: That's right, Jon. Famously shy. JON STEWART: Famously shy. And obviously, I don't want to start. on a confrontational note. And these are, you know, these conversations should be civil. And we're going to try and keep it that way. But Rory, here in America, we're wondering, why is Europe so hostile? Why do they use us? The UK, the EU, why do they victimize.

America to such an extent? It's hurtful, Rory. RORY STEWART: It is, and you're right. And this is what JD Vance wants to know. and all those wonderful Signal chats. Why are we so mean to you? Why have we been bullying you for such a long time? JON STEWART: Why, Rory? That's really the simple question. RORY STEWART: No, that's right. I mean, it's an amazing flip, isn't it? That JD Vance sometimes wakes up in the morning. and thinks the United States is this. incredible global superpower that's going. to tell China what to do. And in other moods, he's like, oh,

we're the victimized kid on the playground. Everybody's stealing our lunch money. These horrible Europeans. I was trying to get my head around the mentality, but I guess the mentality at the moment. feels like, from Europe, that the Trump. administration is obsessed with not being taken for a sucker. They seem to think everybody's kind of ripping. them off all the time. JON STEWART: Yes. RORY STEWART: Is that right? JON STEWART: Oh, I don't think there's. any question about that. And we have a very powerful man baby at the helm whose career--.

you know, I think so much of this-- what. makes it so difficult is that a lot of the ramifications that. are being felt economically throughout the world. are the product of a psychological wound. that our present leader suffered as a real estate. developer from Queens, who did not feel. that he was given enough fealty from the Manhattan real estate.

And so because of that, this is all a search for validation, loyalty, and fealty. Unfortunately, it seems to be plunging the world. into a global depression. RORY STEWART: And Jon, it's weird, isn't it? Because I noticed this, that we talk. so much about his psychology. And of course, it's very difficult. to work out his psychology. So you'll get people who know him well. They'll say one moment, oh, he won't be able to put up.

for Elon Musk for more than a couple of days. because he can't bear anyone else in his limelight. And then they'll have to change their view. and they'll be like oh, no. The thing about Trump is he really likes wealthy people. Or they'll say-- they'll say, you know, he doesn't--. the one thing he cares about is the stock market. And then when he tanks the stock market, everyone's like, no, no, no, he doesn't really. care about the stock market. But what I think it's showing, if I was going to be. pretentious for a second--. JON STEWART: Please. RORY STEWART: --is that the structure's falling down. You only start focusing on the psychology of the individual.

when the system isn't working. Because when you've got a properly functioning system, the civil servants are working, the courts are working, Congress is working, the details. of the mysterious psychology of the president. is less important. It only becomes important when it all goes executive orders. And I think that's what's so strange about this. This is a guy who, particularly with tariffs, has suddenly found this sort of emergency weapon. that he can deploy. And then we all have to start worrying about his psychology.

JON STEWART: Well, it's actually, the modus operandi for this administration is to--. you know, throughout the history of the United States, the executive has always had a great deal of power, but it's always supercharged that power through the process. of emergency declarations. We have an emergency declaration. We have to suspend habeas corpus. Emergency declaration. What if we imprisoned all of our Japanese citizens? Emergency declaration in the '50s for tariffs.

They're very shrewd about, you know, the Illegal Enemies Act, the Enemies and Aliens--. you know? They find those moments. So he catastrophizes to get elected. and then uses those trumped up--. pardon the pun-- catastrophes to enact. these emergency powers that basically. negate the other branches. And I think that's how he operates. RORY STEWART: Jon, can I--. again--. JON STEWART: Please. Rory, I'm here to help you. RORY STEWART: Thank you.

JON STEWART: You know, originally I was going. to get Europe's vision of us. I'm here to help you. RORY STEWART: Well, you do need to help us. JON STEWART: Please. RORY STEWART: So let me, I think, give a little bit of background. So I was briefly a British soldier, and then I was a British diplomat, and I served in the Balkans. So the Bosnia and Kosovo interventions. I was then in Afghanistan. I was in Iraq. JON STEWART: Famously walked through Afghanistan. and wrote a brilliant book about it. RORY STEWART: Thank you. Thank you. And in all those places, I worked very, very closely.

with the United States. And so I think I need to begin by setting up the world. that I grew up in, which was a world where--. it was an American world. I mean, European or British, but it was an American world. And I think it's just trying to get across the sense. that since the Second World War, the world has been defined by the US. The us set up NATO, basically set up the UN,

set up the World Bank, set up the IMF. And when we deployed to Afghanistan, we deployed because the United States had. triggered Article V of NATO. And some of you pointed out, we came to help the United States. Somebody who was in NATO had been attacked and we deployed. And I developed so much respect for my American colleagues, for their professionalism, for their seriousness. And I really mean this. I mean, they were more professional and serious often, I'm afraid, than we were, because they had more.

power and more responsibility. JON STEWART: And took that power. and responsibility seriously. Is that right? RORY STEWART: Yeah, and you really got that sense. You know? I became close to people that-- listeners. will be familiar with General Petraeus, General McChrystal, Richard Holbrooke, Hillary Clinton. I worked with these people. And I was so struck by how committed they were, how serious they were, and how idealistic they could be. Often when we Europeans were being a little bit cynical, it was the Americans in the room who'd say, no,

we've got to do this properly. We actually care about democracy. or we care about human rights. We're not going to allow this warlord to just. go around abusing people. And it was very precious to me. I mean, it was very precious to me. when I used to teach at Harvard, I now teach at Yale. I'm married to an American. JON STEWART: By the way, don't think that that. means that you can stay. Just know this. We've changed the rules slightly. RORY STEWART: But particularly not after appearing. on your podcast, Jon.

I'm going to blame you when I turn up. and some ICE agent looks at my TikTok account, flings me out. JON STEWART: Send you to Louisiana, and whatever happens, happens. RORY STEWART: Yeah, exactly. I'm coming after you. I'm going to be there. JON STEWART: As you should. RORY STEWART: You better come and visit me. in Guantanamo or El Salvador, wherever it is, because it'll be your fault. JON STEWART: Absolutely. RORY STEWART: No, so just to finish the thought, I mean, I think to really understand the bewilderment, maybe even the overreaction in Britain and Europe to Trump,

you have to understand how, for 70, 80 years, America created this very, very complicated, delicate balance of allies. I'm going to finish with a final little anecdote, which mattered to me. When I was chair of the Defense Select Committee in the UK. Parliament, 2015, we were looking at basically options. of shutting down most of the British defense manufacturing. and just buying from the US because it was going to be. cheaper and they produced at scale,

and we were looking at closing down most of our navy. and becoming a sort of marine corps attached to the US. And we didn't do it in the end, partly because we were worried. about employment in the UK and the navy put up a fight. for its own institutions. But nobody then, nobody 10 years ago. ever said, well, wait a second, are you. not taking a big risk here? Because what happens if the US was no longer a reliable ally? It was inconceivable. I mean, literally nobody in that room.

said, well, hold a second. You're going to put yourself completely dependent on buying. US defense equipment. What happens if a president comes. in who says he's going to switch. off the software on the F-35s? Or, you know, you're going to get rid of your aircraft. carriers and your navy, and you're. going to design yourself into a marine corps. to deploy with the US? Well, what happens if the US is trying. to take Greenland off you? JON STEWART: Yeah. That never came up before? That wasn't something that was going around the room?

RORY STEWART: I mean, it's maybe. a silly point and obvious to listeners, but we had no doctrine. When we went to military training. or we looked at strategy, we had no doctrine for what to do. if the US became an adversary. We literally don't have any plans for defending Greenland. because it was inconceivable. JON STEWART: So that you never thought that we would trigger. Article V by attacking you? RORY STEWART: Right. I mean, we wouldn't know what to do. JON STEWART: That makes sense. RORY STEWART: Yeah. JON STEWART: So here's where it gets complicated, I think, Rory, because you mentioned a couple of things,

and we'll roll back. And this is maybe the explanation. of where you talked about viewing America as this idea. that our government and our civil service, they. all functioned really efficiently and effectively. and were run by serious people who had created. this worldview, where we were the centerpiece. of a democratic free world.

We, you know, amplified our power. throughout these various allies and we respected each other. and we supported each other. The truth is, it was the failure of that world order. to live up to expectation that led. to Trump in the first place, to a large extent, as you've seen from Brexit and populist movements. throughout all of Europe. You know, your experience in Afghanistan and Iraq, you viewed the idealism and seriousness of the people.

in a really positive light and it was moving. and you were impressed by, you know, how hard they worked. But it was a disaster. It was a pig fuck. RORY STEWART: Yeah. JON STEWART: And that led to a real loss of faith and cynicism. in this world order.

And Trump came in as a hard, truth telling diagnostician. This world that you thought was real is actually, we're the victims of this. I mean, the irony is we set up a world that we. now claim is abusing us. RORY STEWART: Yeah. JON STEWART: It was our choice. RORY STEWART: Jon, you put your finger. on probably the most difficult thing that we face, which is this contradiction.

Because you're completely right. Along with all the stuff that was so positive, there was what you call the pig fuck. I was--. JON STEWART: By the way, that's trademarked. Don't think you can just slap that on t-shirts. and go out there and sell that wherever you want. RORY STEWART: It's part of the Stewart brothers thing. We can use this. JON STEWART: Stewart brothers, pig fuck t-shirts. RORY STEWART: We're fine. Yeah. So I was back in Afghanistan in August, this August, just now. And I sat down with the governor of Bamiyan.

Last time I sat down with the governor of Bamiyan, she was a human rights lawyer. This time, he has an injured eye, a big turban. He's surrounded by guys with Kalashnikovs. And he was the governor of Bamiyan before 9/11. JON STEWART: Is he Taliban or is it warlord? RORY STEWART: He's a Taliban. JON STEWART: Taliban. RORY STEWART: And he blew up the Bamiyan Buddhas. He was the guy that did all this. And he's back again, right? So if you wanted a symbol of how little we achieved, we literally invaded the country. to get rid of the Taliban. We spent 20 years.

We spent over a trillion dollars, a thousand billion. dollars, and then we hand the country back to the. Taliban again. So in that sense, of course, Trump's got a point. And I could add to that. Of course, you know, I ran the British International. Development Institution and I could. see there was so much wrong. You were obviously being tongue in cheek when you were talking. about government efficiency. Of course, government is massively inefficient. And I could see all the problems with USAID. But what's happened now is we live in such a binary world. that there's not much room for the Stewart brothers to say,

well, you know, yeah, government's screwed up. and it was inefficient and we got to reform it. We got to do better. It's all now either you're 100% behind USAID, and it was the most wonderful liberal institution. in the world. Or shut it down, turn off the computer, cut all the funding worldwide. So it's the sense of-- and this is where I think you want. to call out Trump and Musk. It's the bad faith that initially. people thought, well, you know, maybe they've got a point here.

Here are some recommendations I could make to make government. a bit more efficient. But of course, they don't care about any of that stuff. JON STEWART: Well, no, and I think they do--. where I think it goes wrong is the conflation. with USAID and American hubris and adventurism overseas. The arrogance of, we will spread democracy. to Afghanistan, and they will embrace it, and we will be famously viewed as liberators in Iraq,

and it will all work out. And so I think, to lump in programs that are distributing. medicines to poverty stricken children with HIV. with a foreign policy that seeks. to impose a worldview that may be alien to those areas. and to enforce it, same thing with COVID. You know? You can go from, you may think that these governments. overreached and that they did certain things, but a lot of it.

might have been in very good faith. But ultimately, when you begin to erode your belief. in the civic institutions and the infrastructure. that upholds them, they become vulnerable to demagogues. Look, Brexit went first. You guys were the first ones to say--. RORY STEWART: We were the canaries in the mine. JON STEWART: Yeah. That's right. RORY STEWART: And I think the way that I look at it. is that there were three things that. defined the world after 1989.

There was an idea of liberal democracy, and the number of democracies in the world. literally doubled between '88 and 2003. The second one was this idea of globalization, free trade, open markets. And the third one was this rules. based international order. UN interventions in Bosnia, et cetera. And something happened between about 2004 and 2014. All those things were discredited. 2008 financial crisis wrecked our faith in markets.

Iraq and Afghanistan wrecked our faith. in these kinds of international interventions. The rise of China. You know, China-- we don't remember. Most people don't remember. In 2004, the Chinese economy was smaller. than the Italian economy. It was the seventh largest economy in the world. JON STEWART: No disrespect to the Italians, by the way. RORY STEWART: No, no disrespect. JON STEWART: That is in no way meant to diminish. the accomplishments--. RORY STEWART: The wonders of the Italian economy. JON STEWART: --and goodness of the Italian people. All right. RORY STEWART: 100%. JON STEWART: 100%. RORY STEWART: So as China explodes and becomes, within 10 years, the world's largest.

manufacturer and exporter, it doesn't become a democracy. So by 2014, we've got that, and we've. got the rise of social media and put. all those things together. And then it's very remarkable. You talked about Brexit. It's not just Brexit. 2014, Narendra Modi is elected in India. 2014, Putin takes Crimea. 2014, ISIS goes across the Mosul border. 2015, far right party elected in Poland. JON STEWART: Erdogan also becomes a much more--. RORY STEWART: Absolutely. Exactly. JON STEWART: Autocratic dictator. RORY STEWART: This is Erdogan's route.

2016, Trump's elected for the first time. So the world is beginning to change very, very quickly. And now we've entered with Trump. to the kind of shadow world. So if I go through those three things, liberal democracies become authoritarianism. Free trades become protectionism. Rules based international order has. become the strong will do what they will and the weak. must suffer what they must. JON STEWART: Do you think that this. is then self-correcting pendulum swings? So the overreach of, let's say liberal democracies who, you.

know, the fall of the USSR and all. of those Eastern European countries. becoming more democratic, these are natural swings? Because it's not as though these, you know, more autocratic societies function better. And, you know, with China, it was really. their entry into the WTO. But China was going to grow anyway.

Is it maybe a failure of expectation of the people. in these countries? We believe things to want to be more successful. than they are or should be. Is it our expectations that are out of whack, or is it a natural cycle of pendulum swings. that go along in terms of these disruptions, or is it a failure of our societies. to adequately remedy the unforeseen collateral damage.

of some of these swings? And I know that's a hugely broad question, and you can take any one of those. RORY STEWART: Well, I think it's four things. I think it's power. I think it's America. I think it's the modern age and its ideology. And what do I mean by that? I mean that '89 to 2004, America. has defeated the Soviet Union. It is completely unchallenged. China is still a minnow in the world. And power leads to overreach.

You're like, we've done this. JON STEWART: Hey, hey. Go easy. Settle down. RORY STEWART: The second one is America. And of course, America is an incredibly-- it's. a country based on can-do. I remember arguing with American officials. in Afghanistan, and I would say, you literally-- you can't do this. HR McMasters was trying to eliminate all corruption. from the Afghan government. He's the guy that went on to be Trump's. national security advisor. And I said, you can't do it. And the answer was always, we're American. You know? Don't give us problems.

Give us solutions. What is it we need to do? Is it we need more troops? Is it we need more money? And when I said--. you know, there was a document that was circulating. This is honestly true, right? The American government, the European governments. signed up to a statement by Ashraf. Ghani, who became the Afghan president, and it ran as follows. Every Afghan is committed to a gender sensitive, multi-ethnic. centralized state based on democracy, human rights,

and the rule of law. OK? Now, you think it's funny. I think it's funny. But at the time--. JON STEWART: I remember that Hamid Karzai. had on his resume, he/him. I think I remember that. RORY STEWART: No, but I mean, why. did we not realize at the time how grotesque this was? So that's partly about America. Then I think there's the point about the modern world, which is that we are in a world of instant gratification. You know, when I was waiting for you to come on, I just scheduled my Uber Eats. And I didn't want to know that there are--. I don't want someone to tell me that it's going to take time.

or it's complicated. I want it now. JON STEWART: Progress. RORY STEWART: Yeah. Then the final thing is ideology. I think we thought that democracy had won. and we couldn't see that we were. in this funny, funny little bubble, and that most of the world didn't really--. wasn't really going in that direction, and that even these words didn't mean. the same to different people. So I remember feeling this. I worked part of my life in Indonesia and in Africa. We call a hundred different countries democracies.

In some cases, it means that Sweden. In other cases, it just means there's been a vote. but there's a bunch of corrupt, autocratic bureaucrats. who aren't paying any attention to anyone. JON STEWART: No, that makes total sense. And I think the thing that America had a difficult time. reconciling is we can't remove corruption from our country, let alone--. so when you hold other places that you're going into--. and the other side of it is interventionism. takes many forms.

And we've tried soft power. You know, as they say, classically soft power. are economic sanctions, all those things. None of it seems to be particularly. foolproof in terms of influence and good outcomes. We've tried lightly bombing countries to decapitate. their autocratic leadership, and that. turns them into a godforsaken hell holes of warlordism. We've tried toppling them with our magnificent army. and then holding those countries.

together with the sinewy textures of our nation. building engineers. That doesn't seem to work. You know? What we haven't learned how to do. is to manage the expectations and dynamics. to create little harm. I'll go even further. I think we caused a lot of this populist turn. by destabilizing the Middle East. and causing a great deal of migration that ended up going. into-- you know, globalization and all these other ideals.

are now being challenged by the idea of the nation state. RORY STEWART: Jon, so I think you're absolutely right. But I think we need to guard against too much despair. The risk is--. JON STEWART: Yes. RORY STEWART: --the right thinks. we don't want having to do with other countries, because we don't like poor people in other countries. The left can begin to think a bit like you're saying now. Well, we screw it all up anyway so maybe best we stay at home. and don't do anything. Of course, the truth is that under American leadership. since the Second World War, and particularly in that '89.

to 2014 period, every year the world got more. prosperous, more peaceful. There were fewer refugees, there. were fewer internally displaced people, more democratic governments. And the big success, which we don't talk about enough, is Europe. If you look at countries like Romania and Lithuania in 1989, they were very, very poor, autocratic states. They are now prosperous liberal democracies. But it requires something that is. quite different from the kind of intervention. you're talking about.

It requires a really rich carrots and sticks. and it requires patience. So how did this miracle for these dozen countries. in Eastern Europe work? It worked because they had the carrot of being able to join. the European Union. They had very, very generous structural funds. over a long time. Their population believed in it. They had a reason to get behind it. Well, let's give US a bit of credit for the direction. that Japan went in, South Korea went in, Taiwan went in. But partly it was because you haven't.

talked about it very much. I mean, how many of your listeners. know that you've still got 25,000 soldiers in South. Korea, right? You've kept going with that--. JON STEWART: All of them, because our listeners. are very, very well--. RORY STEWART: So keep going with that, 60 years. Now the truth is, you went through South Korea being. a pretty poor military authoritarian protectionist. government to what it is now, which. is one of the most vibrant, interesting, dynamic, liberal. countries on Earth. So there's a lot of stuff which has gone in the right direction.

since the Second World War while the US has been right. at the center of this system. So I want to keep making the argument for that odd. combination, that American soft and even hard power, those 25,000 troops, can push things in the right direction. JON STEWART: Sure. RORY STEWART: But it requires, I think, a couple of things. One of them is patience. The second thing is, don't talk to the American people. too much about it. Turns out the places which are going best. are the places you never mention.

JON STEWART: How dare you, sir? I think you could be right. RORY STEWART: I mean, the fact you. don't talk about South Korea as part of the trick, right? You had 2,500 soldiers in Afghanistan. No casualties for 18 months. You could have continued doing that forever. But you talked about it so much, Biden felt he needed to go big or bust. JON STEWART: Sure. RORY STEWART: You don't think that was South Korea. JON STEWART: This is now the Trump. kind of play of victimhood is that South Korea has used us. You know, all these countries, by not militarizing,

by using our defense as a shield. and creating stability for themselves, were able to focus their resources. on this economic development. So they've done great, but we've. suffered desperately because of that, because we're. being forced to--. you know, nobody ever talks about that we like. our influence being global. We have more than 750 military bases. Nobody made us build those. We did that.

That was us. And as much as we want to pull back, our Defense Department is getting a raise again. It's going to be a trillion dollar defense. bill because we're going to build a golden dome. and we're going to do all these other things. I continue to believe this, and I wonder if you feel. the same way about the UK. That the issue in our country is not trade or trade deficits. or all these other things. It's that we were unable to properly distribute.

and reinvest the gigantic wealth that has been generated. in this country over these past 30 or 40 years. into effective, competent change in our own country. RORY STEWART: This is completely right, Jon. So the story of Reagan and the story of Thatcher. was that by releasing the markets, we were going to generate growth. And you did. JON STEWART: Trickle down, baby.

RORY STEWART: Yeah. You generated incredible growth. I mean, I think one of the things that's. difficult to understand in the US debate. is you are all thinking, well, the reason, you know, Trump came to power is that the American economy is. relatively weak and that what Trump's doing. is going around the world saying, you know, we've been taken for a sucker. and they're all getting rich at our expense. Of course, the rest of us have spent the last five. years looking at you, thinking you're. an economic miracle, right? I mean, Europe's economy was the same size. as the American economy 10 years ago. You're now 50% bigger than us, right?

So we look at you and we're like, wow. Right? Then the question is, how do you reconcile that. with how somebody feels in Dayton, Ohio who's voting for Trump? How does this make sense? On the one hand, the American economy is going gangbusters. You've got the seven largest companies in the world. You've got 70% of all global equities. are in the United States, et cetera. And yet, a lot of people feel their lives. are very underwhelming, very disappointing. They're struggling with cost of living. JON STEWART: So here's where it gets tricky,

Rory, because you're right. And by the way, the difficulties. in those industrialized, or I should. say deindustrialized areas, is very real. Those folks have much harder lives now, as we can't compete with China's low wage. and low regulation environment that creates those, and it did hollow it out. But part of the issue there, in terms. of the political pressure, is it almost. invariably occurred in our small swing state--.

there's only five states that matter in this country because. of our electoral college. Generally, states are blue or they're red. There's some purple states that are still in contention. They are almost all suffering from deindustrialization. So that became-- because you could make another slogan. in our country, and it's called nobody. gives a shit about Oregon. Because if Oregon was the swing state, then their issues, which.

would not be deindustrialization, they'd be something else, would be. the ones that dominate our policy. and our public discussion. You know? If Iowa was a swing state, we would all. be talking about tariffs on any hog. producing countries that might be going along. So this is an outsized response to a narrowly. focused geographic issue. RORY STEWART: Well, let's look at this--. JON STEWART: Boom. RORY STEWART: Let's look at this problem of democracy.

Right? JON STEWART: Whoa, hey. Tread lightly, sir. RORY STEWART: This is an issue in Brexit. So I present The Rest is Politics, which. is the UK's biggest podcast. And the question that comes almost every week to us. is, why are we not rejoining the European Union? And people point out that something. like 65% of the British public now think Brexit was a mistake. So it seemed like a no brainer, right? 65% of the public think Brexit is a mistake. We'll rejoin the European Union,

particularly when America is getting a bit erratic. Why don't we get closer to our European allies? But the problem is the problem you've just identified. Labour and Conservative, the two main parties, are fighting about this tiny group. of states called the Red Wall. And those people, and they're mostly. in deindustrialized areas, voted. to leave the European Union. And so, although Keir Starmer, the prime minister, and his entire cabinet voted to remain in the European Union. and thought Brexit was a horrible idea, they're not moving even a millimeter closer to even soft.

versions, like rejoining a customs union or anything. with Europe, because they're worried. about those few swing voters. JON STEWART: And what will happen. is Reform UK will primarily everybody from the right. and they'll be the ones that--. I mean, I don't think Labor's, you know, trouble with that. But I would imagine that the Tories. will be consumed by Reform. RORY STEWART: So this is another way in which. we all are a bit Americans. So this is a story in Canada.

It's a story in Australia. It's a story in the United Kingdom. It's a story in Germany, you know, Germany, the far right. Now, the AfD, which is this party that Musk was getting. behind, this neofascist party. Now up at 26% in the polls. JON STEWART: Right. RORY STEWART: The biggest party right in the polls. And I was a conservative member of parliament. And I--. JON STEWART: After having been a member of the liberal party. as well. RORY STEWART: Yeah, exactly. The Labor Party. And I don't know whether-- you know, my politics in us terms.

is probably a little bit to the left of Hillary Clinton. JON STEWART: Makes you a conservative. RORY STEWART: But I'm not full Bernie Sanders, right? JON STEWART: Right. RORY STEWART: And when Boris Jonson became prime minister, I was so horrified. I mean, the guy's a complete-- he's a terrible human being. He was clearly going to be a terrible prime minister. JON STEWART: But a wonderful zip line photo op. RORY STEWART: Yeah, he's a funny buffoon. He's a good clown, right? JON STEWART: Yes. RORY STEWART: It's the age of clowns in politics. He's a funny guy. And Trump maybe can also be quite funny sometimes.

I mean, that's part of the problem with these people. I mean, you're funnier than both of them, but they're quite funny. They're quite good television. JON STEWART: Yeah, no, they're charismatic, but they play into a real sense of grievance. That is real. The problem with a good diagnostician. is they also have to be a good fixer. And that's where we're starting to see the chaos unroll. RORY STEWART: And a couple of things there.

So I and 21 of my colleagues would. not put up with Boris pushing ahead with a hard Brexit. And we resigned. We left Parliament. Which is one of the reasons I've. been a bit puzzled by why my Republican Senator. and Congresspeople friends were not doing the same with Trump. I cannot understand what they're doing. I mean, they say to me, well, you know, I'd lose my seat. Well, we all gave up our seats to protest about Boris Johnson. So why are they not prepared to risk their seats. to protest against Trump?

JON STEWART: I'm sorry. Did you just say are they not prepared to risk their seats? Is that--. RORY STEWART: Yeah. JON STEWART: Are you suggesting that self-interest. and self-preservation should not. be the sole motivation for--. listen, Donald Trump has a hold on his constituency, I can't honestly think of-- even Reagan did not have--. you know, they keep talking about cancel culture. The real cancel culture in this country. is anybody who might speak out against Donald.

Trump who might be on the right is immediately exiled. There was a gentleman-- this is just recently happened. There was a gentleman who was full MAGA. Pentagon spokesperson. He wrote an op ed about the chaos. going on in the Department of Defense. Donald Trump Jr just put out a statement. This man is excommunicated. This man has been exiled from the MAGA. Like, you can be cast out like it's Thunderdome.

Mad Max, you must wander the desert. It is a bizarre purity test. RORY STEWART: It's incredible. And for me, as a conservative who's turned against this, you see it very directly. So, you know, I had JD Vance tweeting against me and saying, you know--. well, he said, I've always said that Rory. thinks he's got an IQ of 130, but actually, he's. got an IQ of 110. JON STEWART: That's right.

By the way, I loved the specificity of that, that it was that you think it's 130. Yeah, it's 110. And most people are like, 110 is pretty good. I would take 110. RORY STEWART: That's what I thought. I was pretty proud of the 110. JON STEWART: Sure. RORY STEWART: Yeah, it sounds great. Yeah. So yeah. So then you get-- once that happens-- and I've. had Elon Musk tweet out against me, I've had Donald J. Trump, Jr. JON STEWART: Yes. RORY STEWART: It's amazing what's unleashed, because of course they have tens or hundreds of millions.

of followers in some cases. So then you suddenly are hit with a barrage of 5,000, 6,000 replies. And I'm trying to get in a fight with JD Vance. about my interpretation of Christianity. and his interpretation of Christianity. But most of the response that you get. is, you wouldn't be able to beat. him in a push-up competition. They're really not--. JON STEWART: [LAUGHS] He will punch you in the face, sir. RORY STEWART: That's it. Exactly. You look like a man child. JON STEWART: You know, the amazing thing is the issue.

with them is, they believe their IQs are 180. and they're 110. You know, there's an infallibility-- now, what's happening right now will test their ability. to the reality distortion field that they. have been able to project. That's been really effective at inoculating them. against any kind of accountability or criticism. is really going to be pushed here because of this trade war.

There is nothing that they pushed more vehemently. There is nothing that they described in starker terms. as being the medicine that was necessary to reverse. the victimization that Americans writ large. have faced in the world, and you are watching it crumble. The president sat down with the heads of Target and Walmart. and other big box stores, and they were like, hey, man, I just want to let you know, in two weeks,

we are going to be out of shit. Like, you are going to see empty--. and all of a sudden--. and then the bond market went crazy and treasuries, you know, the dollar is weakening. Treasuries aren't being bought up as much as the safe haven. And all of a sudden today, Donald Trump said, you know, I'm thinking actually, you know, all these people are. kissing my ass to make deals. I'm thinking I'm just going to drop the tariffs to, like, 40%, 50%. I don't know. You know what? China has to make a deal, so why.

not just drop all the tariffs? Because they have to. And I'm wondering, will this be the moment. that finally they go, oh. The man behind the curtain isn't brilliant, doesn't have the answers. Or will there be just another reality distortion. kind of moment for them. RORY STEWART: Jon, I mean, again, you. know far more about the US. But from the European international perspective, we are in a real existential crisis here.

I mean, for the first time in 70 or 80 years, Europeans are asking themselves, maybe we need to be closer to China than the US. I mean, it's mad. Right? There is no moral equivalence between China. and even Donald Trump. JON STEWART: I just can't see that being an option. I just can't. RORY STEWART: And yet, it's happening. And China-- basically, China had one objective. over the last 20 years, which is to break the link.

between the US and its allies. JON STEWART: As did Russia. Same thing. RORY STEWART: Absolutely. And you can see Xi Jinping, the Chinese Premier, has been touring around Southeast Asia. Usually doesn't say anything, but the last week. he's been saying, I'm going to be your reliable ally. You can see op eds appearing in the Chinese newspapers. about how Europe needs to reach out to China. We're going to get great offers on Chinese electric vehicles, which is going to make a lot of sense. to us because they'll be very cheap. and it will help us in the energy transition. and poor people in Europe are struggling.

to afford electric vehicles, which. we're forcing them to buy. So all this is happening, right? And it's completely bewildering. So we're praying that the world is going to right itself. We're praying that the old United States that we. used to know is coming back. And that in the end, the institutions of the United. States, the midterms-- and of course, sadly, in the middle of this, it's a really sad thing. People are slightly thinking, well, I kind of hope he screws up the global economy because that.

might finally destroy him. You know, people are thinking, well, the one thing Hitler didn't do is screw up the economy. He was quite good at creating jobs. JON STEWART: Well, that's the authoritarian bargain. The authoritarian bargain. You can disappear the unpopular--. you can get rid of the immigrants. and the trans and the thing. But the trains, really, the trains running on time. RORY STEWART: Yeah. So Trump is very interesting if he. can be the first protofascist who turns out to be entirely. economically illiterate and completely incompetent.

and totally able to drive up prices in the United States, crash the stock market, destroy America's position. as the world's reserve currency and it's felt by people, it's felt in Medicare, it's felt in Medicaid--. I mean, I'm talking to you from Yale University. Obviously, the average voter does not particularly. care what happens to an Ivy League University or even USAID. or many of the stuff I care about. Voice of America, the Wilson Center. JON STEWART: All the things that have been holding. our great country back. RORY STEWART: That's right.

And the tariff thing. I mean, I spent so much time talking to colleagues. in Switzerland, in Europe, in Southeast Asia, in China about this. And it is bewildering. I mean, your listeners will understand. that Trump is saying four completely. contradictory things, right? He's saying these tariffs are going. to generate a huge amount of money for the US. government, right?

JON STEWART: No more taxes. All the money from tariffs. RORY STEWART: Exactly. We're going to import all this stuff from China. JON STEWART: The most beautiful word in the English language. RORY STEWART: Right. Second thing is it's going to create lots of jobs, right? That's the opposite. That's, we're not importing things from China. We're going to make them here. In which case you don't get the tax revenue. JON STEWART: Right. RORY STEWART: Third thing he's saying. is, no, no, no, these are temporary things. which are being used to achieve something else. They're being used to get a concession on fentanyl. from Canada or Mexico. JON STEWART: Sure. Canada's been flooding us with over $40 worth of fentanyl.

over the last year. RORY STEWART: So that's a completely different theory. That's like, I'm not actually going to keep tariffs. I'm not going to get the revenue from it. I'm not to get the jobs from it. I'm just using it to stop the fentanyl coming in. And then the fourth theory, which. seems to be going with China, is I'm using it to damage. somebody else's economy. It's like sanctions. I'm just punching them. And I'm going to take some damage in my own economy, but they're going to feel it more. You know, Walmart will feel the pressure, but China macroeconomics will feel it more. He may even be right, but then there's a whole question about,

who's got more political resilience? Xi Jinping with his people or Donald Trump with his people? As the pain are inflicted on these two economies. JON STEWART: I think we're seeing. right now how it's changing. RORY STEWART: I mean, that's a kind of overly complicated way. I learnt as a politician, as soon as you have four points, you've lost everybody. JON STEWART: But the first one was good enough, Rory. I was riveted by the first one. I don't remember any of the rest of it. But let me ask you this then. But China. Look, nobody is going to trust--.

they have the same problem that Trump has. When you are creating something out of executive action, you are not creating something lasting through legislation. And people understand that that has less stability. So a new president comes in four years from now. and immediately reverses it and so. nobody is going to reshore the factories that were going. to cost billions of dollars. But so the question is this, though. You keep saying, you know, 70, 80 years post-war stability.

As Bannon would say, these are the great turnings, the 70. to 80 year great turnings. This is the new one. So what is the new turning? Because it's very clear that the populist leaders. have a very different view. They have a nation state. Look, in the old days, it was democracy. versus authoritarianism or capitalism versus communism. Now it's woke versus unwoke. It's purity versus multiculturalism,

meritocracy versus DEI. Now, I don't buy that any of those things. are real in the way that they are portrayed. But that seems to be the organizing principle. And how do you create stability out of that? And can the EU and the UK be the leaders. of that old democratic order, or will they fall.

prey to the same pressures? Will Russia and the United States. be able to split Europe like they're doing now? RORY STEWART: Yeah. Well, I think the first thing is. you've made a really important point, which is the world's changed. We've entered this funny shadow world. And basically what we're looking at. is a new form of fascism, really. I mean, fundamentally, these people--. it doesn't matter whether it's Erdogan or it's. some of the people around Trump or it's Narendra Modi. These are people who think, like many people did.

in the 1920s and '30s, that liberal democracy was kind. of weak and indecisive and incompetent, and it failed people. JON STEWART: I think Musk said that empathy is. the world's biggest problem. RORY STEWART: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, like you, I was talking to Ezra Klein recently, and he's--. the whole world's been talking to Ezra Klein, and he made that joke. JON STEWART: Kid's everywhere. He's like Chalamet promoting a Dylan biopic. RORY STEWART: It is like--. JON STEWART: You can't get rid of him. RORY STEWART: Exactly. You can't get rid of him anyway. Anyway, one of his points is he thinks that Musk was motivated.

by the fact that he felt that his employees were rude to him, and that they kept asking for empathy, and that a lot of this rage with DEI and wokeism. is just Musk and other tech bros, feeling that the people who work for their companies. were not obedient enough to the great leader. JON STEWART: That's interesting. RORY STEWART: This idea that we're going to come in, we're going to bring in strong men. and they're going to be efficient. They're going to get stuff done, and we don't care too much about all that other stuff. In their mind, it's all nonsense and inefficiency.

You know? It might be--. JON STEWART: But also that it might be to reclaim something. They're going to reclaim their country's default setting. The default setting of America being. white, Christian, and male. The default setting of Germany being Germans. You know? Isn't there something that it's a reset seeking to change. what the Great Society or the New Deal. or any of those other kinds of migratory globalistic--. you know, it's a reset.

RORY STEWART: It's a reset, and it's a reset that has. two particular implications. The first is corruption, which I think. you talk about a lot, which is these regimes. foster corruption. I mean, tariffs is a very good example. Tariffs are lovely thing for Trump. because each individual business. has to come on bended knees and ask for a little exemption. The second thing that it breeds is violence and conflict. So you mentioned Germany. The AfD in Germany say that there are real Germans,

and they do an analysis, which basically, in their sort of ideology, says that Muslims. are not real Germans. And that includes German citizens who are Muslims. And they have this idea of remigration, which basically means you push them out of the country. JON STEWART: Of citizens? RORY STEWART: Of citizens. And this is true in Austria too. These parties have a full ideology where they've actually. counted the number of people from different countries that. should be. So they say, we don't want zero Afghans,

but in a Germany of 100 million, we think there should be 300. They've counted the numbers. It's a very, very--. JON STEWART: Can those people have families. or just, it's capped at 300? RORY STEWART: I think it's capped at 300. And maybe, you know, if you get above it, you leave again. And actually, the Austrian far right, Kickl's far right. has been very clear about this, that this will. extend to citizens as well. Now, why does this lead to violence? It leads to violence because it questions the fundamental ideas.

since the Second World War, which is the equality. of everybody's rights. That it doesn't matter whether you're Muslim or white, you have the same rights. Once you question that, then other things. become more likely. And this is where it gets dangerous, because then you. begin to think, well, you know, I should add a little bit. to my territory here. And look at the way that Trump thinks about Greenland. as an example of this, because I think other leaders are going. to begin behaving like this. What's so strange about it is that he.

doesn't even have the grace to lie or be a hypocrite. So you talked about Timothée Chalamet. When Timothée Chalamet is being Henry V, right? JON STEWART: Yes. RORY STEWART: He's going off to France. and he's at least pretending that he. has a legal claim to France. You know? His dad's mom's dad was actually the King of France. JON STEWART: Yes, yes. RORY STEWART: And when Hitler's invading Poland, he's at least faking a border incident, claiming he's responding to the Poles attacking him. What's odd about Trump and Greenland. is there's no moral or legal excuse at all.

He just says, I want it. JON STEWART: Yes. RORY STEWART: I've got the troops. I've got the money. Give it to me. And that collapse of international legal frameworks, morality is very unusual. I mean, it's taking us back almost a thousand years. It's the mentality of a warlord. JON STEWART: No question. No question. But I think they are underestimating the role. that stability plays in the economic successes.

of the last 70 or 80 years. And I think liberal democracies were underestimating the role. that immigration or uncontrolled immigration. played in that stability. You know, there's a difference between recognizing. human equality and not controlling borders. And I do understand, you welcome people. But there has to be--. the biggest problem in immigration in this country. is that our system is just utterly broken. There are no rules. Getting green cards, you could be here for 40 years.

You could be here--. we don't know how many people we want to have in. By not being able to successfully articulate. and execute policies, we make ourselves. vulnerable to these other kinds of disruptions, which. are far more existential. RORY STEWART: Yes. And I didn't quite get on to your point about Europe. Immigration, uncontrolled immigration. is the number one reason for the rise of the far right. in Europe.

And unless mainstream centrist parties can come up. with serious policies on how to be humane, generous, but also. control immigration, how to say we're going to take asylum. seekers, but we're going to be realistic about the numbers. we're going to take. These are going to be the criteria. We're going to share the burden across Europe. If you can't do that, you're doomed. If you can do that, this is an incredible opportunity. for Europe. JON STEWART: That's right. RORY STEWART: An astonishing opportunity because--. JON STEWART: Astonishing. RORY STEWART: Suddenly we can be what we haven't been.

for a very long time, which is stand up and be. serious about these values, which are at the heart. of the European Union. You know, we talk a lot about democracy. We talk a lot about equality. And of course, Musk wants to suggest it's all fraudulent. It's not. And particularly in Eastern Europe, where people have been through this experience in 1999, they believe it deeply. Talk to a Pole. They really believe this stuff. JON STEWART: There is room for a law and order liberalism. There is a room for a stable, progressive feeling that is not. just based in idealism, but based.

in infrastructure and based in the idea of real. governance that doesn't--. you know, one of the problems here on the left. is if you're going to solve one problem, that problem also has to solve every problem. If I want to do housing, that also. has to solve global warming. RORY STEWART: Sure. JON STEWART: I also think--. boy, this is getting us into a whole other discussion, and I apologize for this, and I really. appreciate you taking the time and bringing these insights. I think that the world's climate policies have been.

disastrous in a lot of different ways, one of which is the rhetoric of we cannot get to 1.5 degrees. We have six months left. We have eight months left. If we don't change our ways. They're asking human beings to no longer be progress-oriented. I think, how many COP conferences has there? What has it been? 40 now? And then what they would do is say, oh, we'll. just put a carbon tax on it.

Oh, good. Well, in six months when you're voted out of office, let us know how that goes. I think we have to rethink how this is all being accomplished. RORY STEWART: Yeah. And Jon, I mean, the most simple thing in Europe. is that most of our environmental policies. have been regressive, which means. that they've had the biggest impact on the poor. JON STEWART: Right. RORY STEWART: Because what economists--. JON STEWART: As everything does. RORY STEWART: Yeah. Well, and this is partly because economists have got. a perfectly logical argument, which is what you want to do. is you want to tax people's carbon consumption.

or their energy use, because that's going to encourage. them to reduce it. But of course, who finds the biggest proportion. of their income going on filling their vehicle. or heating their home? It's the poor, not you and me. JON STEWART: Right. That's right. RORY STEWART: So we are pushing a green transition. onto the shoulders of the poor. So this also involves having much bigger conversations. about tax, about redistribution, about the kind of societies you want to have. And these are not easy. But to return to where I was, I was a working politician.

And there's something very odd going on in politics. I've written a book which, in the US, I've called-- it's title you might like. It's called How Not To Be a Politician. JON STEWART: Yes. RORY STEWART: And it's the story of my spending 10 years. being a pretty useless politician. But I'm trying to be honest about what it's actually. like being a politician. You know, how totally mad your life is, how much time you're spending-- wasting fundraising. How much time you're spending trying to negotiate.

JON STEWART: Even in the UK. RORY STEWART: Even in the UK. I mean, it's much worse in the US, but even in the UK. You know, when I'm running to be mayor of London, I'm spending a lot of time going to see very, very boring, wealthy people, trying to ask them for money. and putting up whatever their bee in their bonnet. is about residents parking or Israel. or whatever they want to talk to me about. Right? Not to say I want to minimize the horrors. of what's happening with Israel and Gaza at the moment. But I'm saying to them, listen, I'm. running to be mayor of London.

Why are you asking me about my policy on, I don't. know, Kashmir? Anyway, put that aside. I guess what I'm getting to is we. have created a frozen system. Politics feels paralyzed. And one of the reasons you get the Musk's and the Trumps. is that they are offering to come in with a sledgehammer. and smash the whole thing up. And one of the things I'm trying to get across, I guess, to people who've not been politicians. is until you've been in the system, you don't feel how you're just kind of. stuck in treacle all the time.

You just cannot move. We spent all our time meeting people and reading smart books. about how we can transform things, and then when you try to do it, nothing happens. A hundred legal reasons. A hundred process reasons. You know, I was a--. I found myself as a cabinet minister. in charge of budgets of tens of billions of dollars, and it was unbelievably unsatisfying. I felt it was more fulfilling when. I was restoring one block in the old city of Kabul. in Afghanistan. I ran a nonprofit called Turquoise Mountain, which my wife now runs.

It was really exciting and fulfilling, and I'm working with a couple hundred people. and getting stuff done. When I'm in charge of a huge government department, the basic answer to almost everything you want to do. is, I'm afraid it can't be done. Right? And if it's not your civil servant saying it, it's the polling people, or it's your political leadership. saying, no, that's not going to work. with this voter or that voter or the other, right? So how do we find energy, and responsible energy? Because you began with this, and maybe this. is what I want to finish with. When I was running in opposition,

I realized that the easiest way to win is you just say, this is all bullshit. These guys are idiots. They have no idea what they're doing. Look at how crappy--. JON STEWART: Hey, stop describing my show. That's my job. RORY STEWART: Exactly. And of course, incredibly tempting and it. works very, very, very well. But of course, it also feeds into all the problems. of our modern culture. This kind of Uber Eats mentality, our lack. of tolerance with complexity or delays, and produces, ultimately, Trump, or in a smaller version,

Boris Johnson, which is the politics of spectacle, the politics of statements. It's not really about, you know, my boring four. points about how his tariff policy. undermines itself, right? It's all about claiming to do something. It's the politics of reality TV. And I think undoing that involves. more than just you and me being thoughtful and earnest. It involves really thinking about the modern world.

and thinking about our culture, which is quite difficult. to look at, and the role that things like social media. play in our culture, who our heroes are, what our morality is. JON STEWART: And a persuasive case to improve those that. can have electoral success. Because ultimately, it almost sounds like you're describing. this kind of strange paradox of politicians. in incumbent situations who show no courage so that they.

can keep these jobs, that they don't do anything in and get. very little satisfaction from. You know, that's the strange part. RORY STEWART: Yeah, and deeply depressing. I mean, most of my colleagues are depressed. Most of them feel their lives are much less. than they wanted them to be. Let me finish with one last plug, because I worked for an amazing American nonprofit. called GiveDirectly. And my slightly awkward link to that is they. have a policy of giving unconditional cash.

transfer to the poorest people in the world. JON STEWART: Like a micro loan kind of a thing. Or is this a different--. RORY STEWART: Except they don't ask for the money back. It's just a grant. And the results are spectacular. You know, you turn up in a Rwandan village. three months after they've received literally. unconditional cash for every house, and the whole place has been transformed. Electricity is up. Everyone's got livestock. The roofs have been repaired. The kids are in school. It's unbelievable. But it's an exact example of what we've been. talking about all the time. The evidence is there, but the politics of it. are unbelievably tough.

How do you explain to a voter that actually what. all the research, all the randomized control studies. show, that the best way to do international development. is to literally just give someone $900 in cash, not monitor them, not ask them what they're going to do. JON STEWART: Right. Bottom up, not top down. RORY STEWART: Yeah. And there is another example of--. I've got hundreds of examples of the fundamental challenges. of our society. Decentralization against centralization, bottom against top, and above all, communication.

JON STEWART: Your mouth to God's ears. But this is a moment, as you said earlier--. and I appreciate you summing it up in that way--. of opportunity. And something is going to be built. in the shadow of this chaos. And if we do it right, it's going to be something really. lasting that can give the same kind of years of stability. and progress, and hopefully that emerges from all of this. and that we still have podcasts after that happens,

because I don't know. RORY STEWART: And that we still have America. because we love America. We want you guys back. Come back. JON STEWART: Come back, America. The perfect way to end it. Rory Stewart, thank you so much for joining us. Obviously co-host of The Rest is Politics. Please say hello to Alastair and everybody else. and really appreciate you being here and taking the time. RORY STEWART: Thank you for your time. Bye bye. JON STEWART: Bye. [THEME MUSIC]. I don't know any other way to describe.

a gentleman like that other than delightful. LAUREN WALKER: You appreciated the accent? JON STEWART: I cannot tell you how. much I appreciate an accent like that. breaking things down into--. what it is is the four things that will destroy the world. are simply this. LAUREN WALKER: I'm sure he'll love that impression. JON STEWART: No, that's a terrible--. I don't have the accents down, but my God. The other thing is, for the life that he's led, you would think there'd be a little more wear. and tear on the tires.

He was in Afghanistan, soldier, then minister, MP, minister, writer, teacher. I mean, Jesus. LAUREN WALKER: I guess there's not too much sun damage. in the UK to be done, so. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Oh my god. JON STEWART: That is so--. I cannot believe that you went to the pastiness. of his countenance. How dare you. At long last, Lauren. You know what it was I thought most interesting. is there is a wistfulness and a kind of confusion. in the accusatory tone of Trump and Vance and the kind of,

hey, we were under the impression, actually, that you in the United States. were benefiting quite a bit from this. and we appreciated the stability. So, fuck. LAUREN WALKER: Looking into this episode, something that really sat with me. was the European Commission chief's comments. I'm currently having countless talks with heads of state. and government around the world who want to work together. with us on the new order.

Everyone is asking for more trade with Europe. And it's not just about economic ties. You know? It's different time now. JON STEWART: I think it's so amazing when you think about, you know, what has been the cry of like the conspiracy. right forever. This new world order. And what is Trump ushering in? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. I mean, something that I'm sitting with is I'm like, I can't believe we're kind of rooting for Trump to--. and you guys talked about this in the episode.

But it's like we're hoping he screws up. the global economy so people start to see. the reality of who he is. JON STEWART: Boy, do I hope that it doesn't take a screw up. to the global economy for people to see who he is, but I don't--. and to be quite frank, I don't even think that will do it. I just don't think that they view. his actions and negative effects. as being in any way correlated. They'll always view it as--.

sort of like in the old days. You know, the left used to cling to communism. Well, communism has never been tried. You know? Just because Stalin killed 8 million. people in a forest in Russia. Communism has never been tried. And I think you will always have that with Trump. And God, I hope it doesn't take this economic chaos to do that. I hope we pull out of this spiral. Cooler heads have to prevail. But man, it is wild to watch, isn't it?

It's been a hundred days, guys. I don't even think it's been a hundred days. Look how old I look. LAUREN WALKER: I've aged so much. JON STEWART: No, not at all. Brittany, what are the people saying? What are the good people saying? What are they saying? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Our listeners. JON STEWART: What do they want from us? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Hey, Jon. JON STEWART: Congratulations on a Webby Award. LAUREN WALKER: Hey, Congratulations to you. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Three of them. JON STEWART: You guys. Look at us congratulating each other. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: We did it, guys. LAUREN WALKER: We're like the Spider-man meme. JON STEWART: Yeah. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Hey, Jon, whatever happened to Elon.

coming on The Daily Show? JON STEWART: Oh, he came on, and it was great. I thought it was a productive conversation. I don't know. You know, the whole thing occurred. I guess we did a bit on DOGE, and I obviously. came up with all kinds of billions of dollars. that we could save from subsidies and corporate things, blah, blah, blah. That was the real cost savings to me. He, you know, said--. he said, not us. We didn't make any entreaty. He said, I'll come on the show if you air it unedited.

And we went, sure, fine. That's how most of them air, so sure. What the fuck? And then he said, like, you're a propagandist. And he started to back away. And I said, look, you come on or don't come on, but don't pretend like it's I don't live up to a standard. And that is the last time I have--. and that is, I think-- and I think Tesla was at, you know, at least 80% of its value at that point. And it's since, I think, plunged to whatever it is.

Obviously not connected. But I did DM him. Is that a thing? I texted and just said like, hey, man, so is there somebody. I should, you know, have our guys. reach out to make this happen? And I got ghosted. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: You got ghosted by Elon. JON STEWART: I got left on read, man. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Wow. JON STEWART: Yeah. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: I mean, we've all been there. Not by Elon. JON STEWART: Girl. Well, actually, judging from his most recent revelations. of his baby mamas, I think everyone.

has been left on read at some point by that gentleman. So yeah, I don't imagine it will. I would be surprised. LAUREN WALKER: I think I have some bad news because I was. reading that one of the reasons he's claiming he's leaving. government is the nasty and unethical. attacks from the left, so. That might be why you're on read. JON STEWART: I'm completely, I'm. sure, undeserved-- you know, in no way reflective of standing. on a stage with a chainsaw, celebrating. the loss of livelihoods for tens of thousands.

of well-intentioned government workers, I'm sure. Yes, no. This is all completely out of the blue. LAUREN WALKER: Surely. JON STEWART: Listen, if there's one thing. that this administration does better than anybody. I've ever seen, it's play the victim. I've never seen any people ever, including when my kids were three and two years old, evade. accountability and responsibility. and blame others in the way that these people do. It's truly shameless.

BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Amen, sister friend. JON STEWART: Thank you. Look at us. The Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants over here. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Do you want another one? JON STEWART: Yeah, give me another one. Give me another one. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Is it worth it in this day and age. to go to school for journalism? JON STEWART: Oh, wow. Any question that starts with, is it worth it? I always want to end with, let me work. Let me flip it down and reverse it. All right. Uh. Oh, wow.

BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah, it's a tough one. JON STEWART: I mean, I don't know if they're. talking about the financial. I will say this. Is it worth it to society? Hell fucking yes. We need committed, idealistic, tenacious, resilient. young students to go into journalism. and try not to be defeated by the general outrage.

incentivized financial system that we have of discourse. Like, we need those people desperately. And the people that I've met that are going into that that. are young people are impressive and committed to all. those incredible outcomes. Is it worth it to them? I don't know the world that you're walking into. You know, the executive producer of CBS 60 Minutes. just quit rather than apologize because he. didn't do anything wrong editing an interview,

which everybody does. It didn't change it. So I don't know the world they're walking into, but I know if that world can change for the better, we need those people. So whoever wrote that, yeah. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Do it. JON STEWART: Do it. LAUREN WALKER: I mean, I was a working. journalist who didn't go to J school, so I might be a bit biased. But I will say that with the changing media landscape,

I would just urge people who do invest in a program to make. sure it's forward thinking and thinking. about the new technologies and the ways. you make a living now as a working journalist, how. to be a freelancer. You know? Those more practical, forward thinking things. JON STEWART: So let me go with Lauren's answer. LAUREN WALKER: Oh, I'm sorry. JON STEWART: Can we strike my answer? Because that the answer that Lauren just gave. was actually actionable and perfect. I think, boy, that's such a good answer,

to think about what that environment is now. and choose a program like that, Lauren. What she said. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: A little bit of life advice. JON STEWART: Sister, what our--. I don't know which member of the Traveling Pants. you are, because I'm not sure who's in that. I think there was four of us, but. Gillian is working remote today, so she's not around. But yes. Boy, that's a good answer. Brittany, well, how else can they get in touch with us? What can they do? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Twitter, we are @weeklyshowpod. Instagram threads, TikTok, Blue Sky, we are @weeklyshowpodcast.

And you can like, subscribe and comment on our YouTube channel, The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart. JON STEWART: Great job as always, guys. Lead producer Lauren Walker, producer Brittany Mehmedovic, video editor and engineer Rob Vitola, who, Rob, I'm telling you, that pushing back my computer. was just a ticket. I felt it. I don't think I banged on the desk as much. For our audio editor and engineer, Nicole Boyce. Researcher and associate producer Gillian Spear. Executive producers, as always, Chris McShane and Caity Gray. Thank you guys so much. And we will see you on the next Weekly Show Podcast next week.

Bye bye. The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart. is a Comedy Central podcast that's produced by Paramount. Audio and Busboy Productions. [THEME MUSIC].