Jon Stewart on Why Men Are Leaving the Left with Richard Reeves & Annie Lowrey | The Weekly Show

JON STEWART: You want to make a splash. You want to fuck Thanksgiving up. That's what it's about. Shake this shit up. [UPBEAT MUSIC]. Hello, ladies and gentlemen and all the ships at sea. Welcome to The Weekly Show. It's our podcast. My name is John Stewart. It is week two? Week three? AT-- after Trump. I don't know what we're--. I don't know how we're going to notate this new era. that we've entered.

We are still in our spinning phase. of trying to deconstruct all the issues that went wrong. I don't think any of it will be fixed without--. It's? All vision and leadership, man. And I think that the Democrats should do--. they should do the thing that they have been able to do, which is, present and develop their new generation. of leaders, to allow them to the space. to make their-- their case. I believe we should do it like The Voice.

You get like four voters. And they sit in a chair. And then you bring out Wes Moore, you bring out the Buttigieg, you bring. out the-- the other ones. They start to give their pitch, and then boom, you see if anybody gets four chairs, three chairs, two chairs. And then, yeah, and you bring them through the battle rounds. And we put them together in-- this is not going to work. I'm grasping at straws. And I understand that. It's perhaps a sign of a broken man, a man that.

does not know where to turn in this darkest hour. for the Democrats. But we're going to continue our process of uplifting. We have to find a way through this that does not deplete. us, emotionally. There cannot be defeatism. There cannot be fatalism. This is not the time. This is the time to examine institutional thinking.

This is the time to examine the status quo. This is the time to create anew. This is an opportunity, damn it. And I apologize for my language. I don't mean to work blue, but damn it, what the fuckity fuck fuck? I guess I do want to work blue. But we are going to continue our process of talking. to people far smarter than I about where they saw some.

of the disadvantages that the Democrats were operating under, things that they could have done. differently, the populations that they didn't connect to. And I think we've got a very strong program for you. today on just that avenue. So let's-- let's get to it now. [THEME MUSIC]. Well, we are joined today-- we're very delighted. to have them with us--. Richard Reeves, President of the American Institute. for Boys and Men, author of, Of Boys and Men, why.

the modern male is struggling, why it matters, and what to do about it, and Annie Lowrey, Staff Writer for The Atlantic. So we've been parsing the electoral shellacking. through the prism of demographics, through the prism of-- of economics. Today, we want to talk about the brotocracy, the fact. that-- they-- they talked a lot about that males, that the Donald Trump phenomenon is that males have. felt rejected, and that they have turned to this.

in a manner of an acceptance. Richard, is that how you understand this phenomenon? RICHARD REEVES: Well, it's interesting that the election. did become about--. a lot of it was about masculinity, right? About quite a performative masculinity, I think, kind of, on the right. And so it was weird because we thought. it was going to be a election about women and women's rights. and so on, and especially with Harris. at the top of the Dem ticket. But actually, this question about what's. happening with guys? Who's side are guys on? But also like, who's on the side of guys?

really, I think, kind of came up in this election. pretty strongly. And the way I think about it was that it's less, I think, the sort of young men in particular, turned so strongly away from the Democrats, as much as they would say that they felt. that the Democrats weren't really offering. anything specific to them. And so they felt like, welcomed and heard and seen, if I can use those words. JON STEWART: I love this. I love the idea that the appeal of Trump. is that he makes you feel seen. He makes men feel seen. RICHARD REEVES: I mean, obviously, we can get some criticisms here,

but like, he appeared to like the things that men liked. JON STEWART: Sure, sure. RICHARD REEVES: He appeared to like men. JON STEWART: The song "YMCA.". RICHARD REEVES: Right. And there was maybe a bit of playfulness there, too. And of course, we can get into this. Annie's reported on this, but the sort. of free-wheeling podcast appearances that they did, et cetera, as opposed to the tightly-scripted stuff. they heard from the left. Basically, the Democrats, I think, assumed they could win on--. on the back of the votes of women, and particularly, around the ambitions of what? That turned out to be wrong. JON STEWART: But-- but I would suggest--.

and Richard, you're bringing up great points. And Annie, let me ask you this. We keep talking about well, he appealed to--. to men and the free wheeling. She didn't do that well with women. She didn't do as well with women as Biden did, as Hillary Clinton. So I almost think the criticisms. that Richard is levying, which is the free-wheeling nature, there was a sort of a sense of humor to it, was more broadly appearing-- appealing, not just to men. ANNIE LOWREY: Absolutely. So I think that-- that Kamala Harris, we knew when she took.

over from Joe Biden that probably, if there had been a competitive primary, she's probably not the candidate. that Democrats would have picked. An amazingly talented politician, but she came in in this kind of funny way. She was sort of appointed because she was VP. Her favorability went up, but she was not like, the most you. know, well-liked politician. When you go back and you look at the kind. of generational political talents. that you've had in both parties, Bill Clinton--. people talk about being in a room with Bill Clinton.

and feeling like the sun was shining on them, right? Like, people talk about Barack Obama--. JON STEWART: And they talk about. some other things with being in a room with Bill Clinton. ANNIE LOWREY: Yeah, but he was, like, likable. JON STEWART: Yeah. ANNIE LOWREY: And I think that Democrats have not. wanted to credit Donald Trump with being. a generational political talent, with being kind of magnetic, with actually being likable. He doesn't drink, but people kind of. want to spend time around him. He is, I think, the funniest person almost, in politics, perhaps not always intentionally, but the whole thing where he you know, calls the kid. and is asking--.

they're talking about Santa. And he's like, do you believe in Santa? Because at seven, it's marginal. I'm like, that's the funniest thing I've heard a politician. say in a long time. And so I think that in any election like this, that's. really close, there's probably like 10 or 15 things. that could have flipped it. But I do think that one thing you saw. was that people just like-- maybe. it's not even like likability, but it's a certain magnetism. Because I do think that Democrats ended up celebrating. the fact that Kamala Harris was this kind of like, funny, wacky--. she actually seemed really, I think, as time went on, more authentic and more human.

JON STEWART: Right. ANNIE LOWREY: Yeah, Donald Trump. really does authentically appeal to people. And I think Democrats had a hard time recognizing. that because so many of them found him racist, sexist, repulsive, and they wanted. to focus on that, on the threat of him, you know? JON STEWART: Well, I mean, it does bury the lead that he's. you know, fun in private. But maybe that's-- you know, are different groups receiving. different messages from him? Because it almost sounds as though we're talking about two. different people, sort of this lovable, comic figure that.

makes people feel seen, who also stands up on a stage. and says, you know, Democrats are the enemy of the people, and I am your retribution. So which is the one that was clicking in for people? And maybe if they dropped the more angry talk. and the rhetoric of you know, I'm your hammer, I'm your vengeance, maybe this thing.

looks more like a Reagan victory over Mondale, and 49 states go. You know, what do you think, Richard? RICHARD REEVES: Yeah, I think weirdly, people are able to discern these different things. But they probably do so selectively. I think a big question that lies behind this is like, did people vote for Donald Trump because. of some of those views, or at least. the expression of those views? Or despite-- or despite them? And because he is in some ways, so as I said, freewheeling, long form, inconsistent, jokey, that, of course,

is a perfect fit with the media landscape within which. many people, especially kind of young people, are consuming stuff. And it's not like they're-- they're-- they're not agreeing. with every one of his tightly-defined. 10-point plan for America. They heard that joke. They heard that--. JON STEWART: He's better content. He's Mr. Beast. And he was up against worse content. RICHARD REEVES: Yeah, and I'll say one more thing. about this spot, but what Annie said, which is that I really. worry when I hear Democrats now, saying,

well, it was sexism, what won it for him. And the reason I'm worried about it, A, I think it's wrong, and B, will send people, especially. men, rushing to the right if that's the only reason. they could have done it. And thirdly, it will put a massive brake. on the possibility of having another female candidate. Like, the female candidates the Dems have run so far. have both come about in quite unusual circumstances, right? And so I do think that a really dangerous misreading. of this election would be, well, we can't run a woman again.

I think that would be horribly wrong and horrible for women. in politics if that was the conclusion, based on just. the two women we've had so far, who for different reasons, I think, were just not the best candidate. But--. JON STEWART: But also apparently, up against a. generational political talent. But Annie, what's your thought on that idea of-- you. know, first of all, I don't know. that that has felt like the majoritarian criticism. of-- of why she lost. But, Annie, you tell me, what's your thought? ANNIE LOWREY: You know, the Democrats. have been running unusual candidates. in unusual circumstances.

It has been a while since the Democrats have. had a vigorous open primary without Barack Obama or Joe. Biden or somebody on the inside really putting a thumb. on the scale for a candidate. JON STEWART: But Obama wasn't on the inside. I mean, Hillary Clinton, by all measures, they thought would kill in 2008. ANNIE LOWREY: Yeah, they did, but there was-- right? Like, there was this very strong headwind behind her. There was this feeling of like, well, who are. you if you don't support her? I mean, I remember that. And she had high unfavorables.

There were questions about it. I do think that if you kind of stop, and you just go to just unbelievably simple--. right? Like, I'm not somebody who thinks a lot. about political messaging. But if you say-- you know, are the Democrats putting forward. their most popular candidates? Clearly not. Right? Democrats spent most of 2024 running an unbelievably. unpopular president who had said that he would step down, and then chose not to. Right? Like, I think that when we're thinking. about the original sins here, again, I mean,

I can't tell you how many discussions. I had with people inside the Biden White House. who believed that he was going to be. a one-term transitional president. And then he wasn't. And then also, I think when you're just thinking about. like, the simplicity of messaging, I know what Donald Trump is going to focus on because he's. told us repeatedly. He's going to focus on immigration. He's going to focus on tariffs, and he. has an unusual sense of what those will do, but nevertheless, he's there. And he's like, and I'm going to just. make a smaller government now. I'm going to cut a bunch of stuff.

It's very-- you can really get in on a bunch of stuff. JON STEWART: And he was that specific. I am going to cut a bunch of stuff. That was the level of specificity. that he brought to it. ANNIE LOWREY: And you know, low taxes, we're going to make it a small government, which to be clear, I'm not sure that I think that he's going to do. You know, I think that there's this giant question over how. much fertility care, the right to a termination, things. like access to birth control and technologies like IVF are.

going to be under threat because he. does now, in his tent, have people. who are really intent on that. And my guess is that if RFK doesn't make it. as HHS Secretary, it'll be because he's. seen as insufficiently serious about continuing to limit. access to reproductive medicine and technology, including abortion. But, you know, like, it's all very simple. And when I think about Kamala Harris, I talk to people about this constantly. I read about it. I report on it from principles.

It was hard for me to say exactly what they. were going to focus on doing. Right? And it was actually sometimes hard. for me to say what the Biden administration. had done in its big bills. And again, I am like-- you know, I way more about this than any reasonable. should-- any person should. And so I think that we can get really elemental about it too. Simple messages, popular candidates. I think that the Republicans did better. on that in this election. And I think that it shows. JON STEWART: Right. And Richard, you know, this gets. to the efficacy of this deconstructive process. that we're doing. We're sort of putting it through one of those,

you know, molecular spectrographs, where we're teasing out each individual thing. And you guys keep bringing up, I. think, a lot of really interesting points that. are very difficult to-- to tease apart, sort. of this idea of a charismatic or more likable figure, you know, a platform that's more easily digestible. But ultimately, when I think about like, the commercials. that were run, they really were based on, the Democrats are.

going to turn your child into a different sex. during the school day, that you won't know about, and they are letting in murderers. And-- and that seemed triumphant. And that seems almost more how they were. able to-- to galvanize people. No? RICHARD REEVES: Yeah, I think that that. sort of message, that the cultural left, the left broadly, right? Not just the Democrats, but like, the blob, the liberal blob, which would.

include media, et cetera. Let's call it that. JON STEWART: That's the-- the nicest name. we've ever been called. RICHARD REEVES: Right. I know it's not a reference to you, Jon. I apologize. But-- but you know what I mean, the blob. And so let's call it that for the purpose. of this conversation. And that's the sense of like, the overreach. of some aspects of that on some of these issues. Like, clearly that gave great ammunition, which they then. used very, very effectively. And no matter how hard the Democrats said, well, we didn't say that, we didn't run on that in the last hundred. days, well, OK, but what's the liberal blob been doing.

for the last 8 to 10 years? And there, there was some real concern. about some of that overreach, especially among parents. I think it also especially landed well with men. But I just want to pick up this communications point that you. both referred to, which is like, at some level, the frustration here was that the Republicans were much. better at getting into those communication spaces. and styles, that were going to reach the modern audience, but actually without any real substance. The Democrats actually had more substance. that they could have talked about if they'd been.

able to get into those spaces. So let me give you-- let me give you a thought experiment. JON STEWART: Yeah, please, please. RICHARD REEVES: Imagine a world where Tim Walz hadn't been told. to just stand still and say nothing. after he'd been the right way. [LAUGHTER]. JON STEWART: Was that the instruction? RICHARD REEVES: I assume so. I mean, that's what he did. JON STEWART: All right, Coach, don't move. RICHARD REEVES: So that's basically what it's like. Here's the play. That's right, here's a coach. So the play was, Tim, just stand still. and don't say anything for the next hundred days. JON STEWART: So that speaks to the caution that they ran--. RICHARD REEVES: Exactly.

JON STEWART: Yeah. RICHARD REEVES: Exactly. But Tim Walz-- but the reason Tim Walz was picked, or at least part of it, was because he. was doing well on that front. He was saying, they're a bit weird, and he was quite freewheeling. He seemed quite authentic. So then they picked him and said, all that stuff you were just doing, don't do any of that. Imagine a world where instead, Waltz. was all over the bro sphere, all over the podcasts, three-hour interviews. And one of-- and he could have said things like, the Republicans claim to be on the side of working-class men. In that case, why did they vote against the Infrastructure. Bill, 2/3 of the jobs from which went to working-class.

men, Black working-class men, Hispanic working-class men, and white working-class men? They could have used it. He could have talked about Medicaid expansion, helping young men get access to mental health care. They could have basically taken the substance. of their own policies into those communication spaces, and basically exposed the vacuosity. of the Republican claim. But they didn't do any of that. And so what you heard from the Democrats on all these issues. was deafening silence. And in politics, something always beats nothing.

JON STEWART: But they filled that space with joy. Joy had filled that space. RICHARD REEVES: Oh, sorry. How long did that last? Annie, how long was the joy moment? JON STEWART: What were you going to say? You were about to comment on what Richard had said. ANNIE LOWREY: Yeah, I think it's so fascinating that we've. seen this gigantic shift in white men in unions. to the Republican Party because say. what you will about the Biden administration. They delivered for unions. They were super pro-union, really, really pro-union, actually, the most pro-union Democratic Party, Democratic administration, you know, in my lifetime.

And so why-- why were those folks you know, so much more willing to vote for a Republican? I think that this is the triumph of cultural issues. And I think that what we've seen. is that for a really long time, there. was this feeling that Republicans were just. playing to the fringes, right? They were appeasing their rightist edge, and that it was Democrats who were capable of soaking. up this more moderate center. And I think in the last couple of elections, that's. very clearly been shifting. And the Democrats have not realized it.

All of a sudden, the Democrats were the ones. who seemed super focused on the voters to their left, and were having trouble of appealing to these voters. in the middle. And most American voters are kind. of squidgy and in this middle. And we're seeing an upending of the types of polarization. that have been predominant for a while, where we're seeing. really sharply increasing education polarization. and declining polarization on a lot of other metrics. And it's-- I actually think it's a time where we're just. seeing a lot of shift, right, declining racial polarization,

declining, in some cases, income polarization, which. is really, really interesting. JON STEWART: Wait. Declining income polarization? Explain that because it seems like income inequality. is actually a much larger issue. Or are you talking about something different? ANNIE LOWREY: --political polarization. I think that you've seen the shift. of like, urban high income, but not. extremely high-income intellectuals. to the Democratic Party. A lot of those voters would have been Republicans 30 years. ago, basically, for tax reasons, where I think. that you're seeing a shifting of lower-income families. into the Republican Party, despite the fact that I think.

that Democrats continue to have a better claim for, like, wanting to deliver material-- better material. outcomes to those folks. I think that they've had trouble. understanding that they haven't really succeeded at that. And so I'm not saying that there's. giant shifts in reversals. It's just that the arrows are pointing slightly. different directions, right? And we're still very polarized. And the polarization still tends not to be. kind of cross-cutting, right? People have these aligned identities. But I think that you're seeing that change a little bit, which is interesting. JON STEWART: But as we tease this out,

right, it looks like, as we build the case out, that all of the prevailing winds. were against the Democrats. Their own actions subverted any chance that they had. Shouldn't this have been a much larger ass kicking? I mean, it was an ass kicking, but in the sense of the way. that we're accustomed to true wave elections, like, then why wasn't this even bigger? You know, it was still-- you know, he won the popular vote,

but not in ways that we've seen. It didn't reach 50%. You know, with all these things that are coming, if-- if men have suddenly shifted and are all moving. in that direction, and women are also not moved. by those reproductive issues and all these other things, but it was still really close, are we overestimating. what went wrong? RICHARD REEVES: Well, I'll tell you--. I'll say something that actually, Ezra Klein said on a recent podcast, where he said--. JON STEWART: There's no one here.

that likes that-- there's no one on this podcast that. likes that guy. RICHARD REEVES: I just--. so for those who don't Ezra--. Ezra, among his many other claims to fame. is Annie's husband. But he had this great line where he said, actually, politics isn't just about like, whether you. like the politicians. It's increasingly about whether you think they like you. JON STEWART: Oh, that's interesting. RICHARD REEVES: And it really struck me. And so I think there's a sense that like, look, if it hadn't. been Trump, like, imagine if it had been like Haley. or DeSantis or someone, then maybe it would. have been even bigger win. Well, maybe not, actually.

Maybe not. JON STEWART: I think the opposite. I think-- ANNIE LOWREY: Yeah. RICHARD REEVES: The opposite? Well, why do you think that? Why do you think the opposite? JON STEWART: Well, I think--. RICHARD REEVES: Why do think he's so much better? JON STEWART: Well, because he represents something. And this is something that I was talking with Ruy. Teixeira about. You know, he was saying the centrist idea, you know, that the country is relatively centrist. And what I think is, the country is thirsty. We're a really thirsty country for vision and leadership. And the fact of the matter is, you can design a policy.

prescription that meets certain boards and makes perfect sense. and allows for the manufacturing base to come up. But if you don't display vision and leadership--. And I think truthfully, if I were-- if you're asking me, I think that the Democratic Party's biggest issue--. and this is what used to get me in trouble with the Obama White. House, and why I would get called down there to be. yelled at on occasion-- if your platform is, government has. a role to play in people's lives, in improving it, then your job one is to make sure.

that it is efficient and competent, and that you have to not have institutional and. status-quo thinking. You cannot run on the audacity of hope and govern with. the timidity of the possible. And like, that's just not going to connect with people. And if-- if you're asking me why I think. DeSantis and Haley would not have--. and DeSantis may be differently, only because he's just such an incredibly unlikable person. Like, he's-- he's definitely like, has the vision.

But the leadership is a little more like, come on, Napoleon, chill out. But Haley, I think, is McCain. And so I think vision and leadership. are lacking in the Democratic Party, and has been for a very long time. And even when they have the vision of leadership, they don't govern that way. They govern institutionally and to the status quo. And they are not creative in their thinking.

And I speak of that from the experience of trying. to get legislation through that Byzantine labyrinth. of bureaucracy. ANNIE LOWREY: I think that when I think about the bills. that Joe Biden passed--. So when I talk to voters, voters. have no idea who did CARES and who. did, like, the Inflation Reduction Act, and what was in it. But this was an enormous amount of legislation. that passed in a short period. CARES was functionally a Democratic bill that. was signed by a Republican. There's a lot of great stuff in that.

And it was just-- it was like, not very well messaged. There's a bunch of checks. And people are like, what is a CTC payment? I'm getting these like, stimulus. Did Biden do stuff? They don't-- they have no idea. They're like, I got a bunch of cash. And then they seem to have done a bunch. of infrastructure stuff. And you talk to people in the White House, and they'd be like, it's the new New Deal. And you'd talk to average voters, and they would have no idea what. you were talking about at all. They're like, I don't know what's in it. And even-- I would be like, it's green-energy stuff, you know?

And-- and that's-- you know, and I think that Democrats got. a little high on their own supply on it, that they're like, these are the biggest. and the most transformative. And it's like, well, if you can't point to what. it did, and people are like, yeah, there. were a bunch of checks and then I don't know what happened. to it, you know, I think that they actually had-- maybe it. was a communications problem. I think that they tried to do too many things, and they weren't kind of hammering. sort of simple things. And I think that Democrats, I think. it is a really, really good and important thing for parties. to lose decisively.

And I actually think that-- no, I'm dead serious. JON STEWART: No, no, no, I laugh. because you're dead right. I mean, that's-- you're exactly right. ANNIE LOWREY: And we've had a bunch of-- part of the problem. with the close elections-- we have these really. close presidential elections. And then Congress is constantly going back and forth, back. and forth, back and forth. And there's like, never a mandate. Right? It's never like a big, giant sweep in which they're. like, that side's better and this side. is-- it's this eternal campaign in which. you get kind of caught up in tiny, tiny little excuses. And I'm hoping, actually, that this would. be good for the Democrats. And I hope it would be good for the Republicans.

too, to be like, OK, we got a little bit of what looks. like a mandate now, and for Democrats to be like, yeah, back to the drawing board. Maybe you know, what we were doing in 2008 isn't working. How are we actually going to appeal to people instead. of being mad that the voters aren't just. naturally attracted to us? Because they think that there's been a lot of like, well, screw these people. I've heard it. You know? JON STEWART: Any time that I have brought up criticisms. of the Democrats, the fierce flowback that I get is always,

the ACA! The CHIPS Act! And you're like, no, I understand that. But what I'm suggesting is, even things like that, when. the website doesn't work or it's really just the government. giving money to insurance companies. to create this other pool, what I'm saying is, we're still following along a line. that's not connecting to the day-to-day lives of people. The first policy that they really said, where I was like oh, that's the future, was when they said,

we're going to help with home health aides. ANNIE LOWREY: Yeah. JON STEWART: That was one of the first policies I was like, that's your future. It's connecting to the day-to-day struggles. And Richard, do you think that they will adjust their thinking. along those lines? RICHARD REEVES: Well, it depends how. the postmortem goes, right? I think it's a question of-- you know, to put it bluntly, do the Democrats conclude that they have the wrong voters? Or that they got the campaign and the messaging wrong?

I mean, I think right now, there's a very. big debate, which is like--. what's the Bertolt Brecht comment. that I keep seeing being floated around online, which is, we need to dissolve this electorate. and find another one? [LAUGHTER]. All right? There is a kind of-- there's a bit of a feeling of that. JON STEWART: But do you trust there. are people within the party that. have the wherewithal to even--. to-- to do that? RICHARD REEVES: Well, we'll see the next four years. But I think Annie's right, in that--. that the failure to connect the policy to the feeling. that I'm on your side, that I've.

got your back, that I like you, that's not a trivial thing. And sometimes the way I think about this is that, what you. got from the Republicans was this sense of like, you know, I really like you. We can have some fun together. When Trump was like-- when he drove the garbage truck, right, you didn't get the sense that he'd. been persuaded to do-- or the McDonald's thing. He didn't-- he wasn't acting like a politician who'd been. persuaded to do that by his senior. staff and really hated it. You got the impression that it was his idea, and that he loved it.

And he-- and it communicates a sense, but there isn't that much substance behind it. Meanwhile, the Democrats come across. as-- they're a bit like the doctor who is giving you. all this medicine, which you know is-- they're trying. to tell you it's good for you, but they. kind of don't like you. Right? They're kind of just doing it like, in this-- so you've. got to do both, right? You've got to-- it can't feel this sense of like, take your medicine or look at these amazing things. we've done for you. Before people will listen to the things you've. done for them, they have to feel like you like them, you're.

on their side, you've got their back, and that you're not being pulled away. JON STEWART: Did he accomplish that though, by scapegoating less popular segments of the population? You know, is his message, I like you? Or is his message, yeah, I get it, these other fucking people are the ones. that are ruining this country, you're the good guys? Like, is it a little bit less--. I think we're making it slightly more benign. than it is. ANNIE LOWREY: Yeah. RICHARD REEVES: Right. It's more the hatred of them, rather than the love of you.

JON STEWART: That's what I'm trying to--. to get at. Now, I know there's-- there's probably some crossover. in that, but it struck me that, look, the trans community, the undocumented community, like, you can't find a more vulnerable. population to scapegoat. ANNIE LOWREY: Absolutely. And look, if the Republicans go through the plans, they're currently creating a plan. to use the US military to forcibly deport. like 2 million people. Right? JON STEWART: Right. ANNIE LOWREY: We know from other ICE raids and deportation. that this is devastating to communities,

miserable for families, and also really hard. for the people who have to do it, right? You're breaking communities up by gunpoint. If they actually go through with that, I think that that is going to read really differently. than-- it's actually pretty popular sentiment. among immigrants, right? Like yeah, we're going to stop like, the flood of people. coming in. And if you're here, we're going to make sure. that we're taking care of you. Sort of similarly, you know, the post-Roe landscape. has been nightmarish. We have had women--. JON STEWART: Right.

ANNIE LOWREY: --die because of the policy change, which. we knew was going to happen. Women die of sepsis. You know, and I think that we're still. going to have this drumbeat of stories, of people who are. like, you know, my mother, my sister, whoever, like, you know, died in a parking. lot waiting for care. JON STEWART: Right. ANNIE LOWREY: And I think especially if they. go after IVF, contraception, other more. popular and less polarized things, we're still going to get that. So I think that it was kind of all blather. And I think a lot of it connected. And where I think it's going to be interesting.

is, how much of this they actually do, now that they do have this mandate, and have said that they would do it. Similarly with tariffs, tariffs are not going to be. popular if he implements them. Stuff's about to get a lot more expensive, you know? JON STEWART: So that gets to a really interesting point. What she's talking about is the real implications of what's. been done, post Roe, have been, millions of women. have lost the power of choice and control. over their reproductive outcomes. Some have died. There have been some horrific outcomes. And here we are, in an election,

where we're talking about men just didn't feel seen. And now they feel seen. And you're like, wait. Why are we worried about how seen-- you know, so. in your research and what you've. seen, what have been the implications. of men not being seen? And why do they feel so disconnected and disaffected. when, as Annie is saying, the real policy. implications, the real tragic implications, have been roiling women? RICHARD REEVES: Well, I think we saw a very good test.

of the proposition that this was going. to be an election largely determined on those issues, and that also, that men would be persuaded. to vote on those issues. I mean, you saw Michelle Obama give a very powerful speech. in the closing days of the election, essentially saying to men, if you don't want your loved. one bleeding out on the table in front of you, if you don't want to be holding the flowers. at the grave of the woman you love, you need to vote for us. So it wasn't like they didn't try that message. And it was a big part of it. And my reading of the polling--.

and Annie might have a different view of this--. is that actually-- and you saw them--. you saw the Missouri election go in an interesting way, with the passing the abortion referendum, but then voting for Trump--. is that actually men, and especially young men, they don't really disagree very strongly. with women about abortion or disagree that the Democrats had. the better platform on that. That's what I see in the data. It's just that that's not what they were voting on. And they thought that was being handled at a state level. or through referenda or whatever. So it just wasn't salient.

And I will say that-- this is relevant to Annie's description. of the next four years-- is that Trump was persuaded very. early on, try and get the abortion issue. as much off the table as possible, right? If the election had been about abortion, he would have lost. And so he took it-- he--. very-- it's unusually disciplined for him, actually, to just take large--. leave it to the states. And I'm not going to sign a federal ban, and talk about other stuff. Vance will really want to win in 2028. And so he will want Trump's first term.

JON STEWART: Don't you mean 2032, after Trump does his third term, and then well, at 86? RICHARD REEVES: Exactly, I'm trying. to work out whether the Democrats. will be back in 2032 or 2036. Anyway, I can't do the math. I can't do the math. But it's like-- and so I think we've learned that kind. of mass immigration without the sort of controls people. wanted wasn't popular, right? across the Southern border. Will mass deportation be even less popular? And will they do it? And will they stop doing it if it actually.

turns out it's not popular, because they. want to win in 2028 and 2032? I think that's what the next few years will show. My guess is, there'll be a lot of symbolic stuff. It will be very noisy. It'll be very messy like it was--. remember the Muslim ban in 2016, where the airports were chaotic? And then a judge came along and--. I suspect it will have more of that flavor. once they start to realize that it's actually not. going to be that popular to go all the way through with this. But we'll see. We do know that the Democrats policy on this wasn't popular. JON STEWART: Right. Well, that's what got them in. I mean, the Republican policy was. in reaction to the Democrats not being.

forceful in those things. I almost think that for men, it is like a cultural comfort. It's that idea of that the locker room has been taken. from us, and you can't do what we used to do in the locker. room, which is incredibly scatological and perverse. and anti-gay rhetoric. Like, all that sort of stuff has been taken away. And you're almost seeing it, you. know, now, if Christian Pulisic scores a goal, he does the Trump dance. If somebody scores a touchdown, they do the Trump--.

like, there is a-- and I haven't seen this before--. a celebratory reaction from men that I hadn't seen before. Like, there is a zeitgeist. There is a cultural moment for men and for Trump. that I think liberals and Democrats especially. are like, wait, what? We had Beyoncé. Like, now you got everybody doing the-- the Trump. dance on things. I think there's a--. a shock that's occurring.

Do you think that's correct, Annie? ANNIE LOWREY: Yeah, and I think that the fact that you are. seeing millennials as perhaps the kind. of like, peak liberal generation, and Gen Zers are shifting back the other direction, is really interesting. You know, I think when you talk to--. to liberals or to Democrats, and they-- you know, 15 years ago, they might have said like, demography is. destiny, and like, we're going to become a solid majority. party because the country is becoming. less white, more Latino, more Black, more Asian. This is our future.

And I think that even now, right, you. know, there's this sense of like, we have all of the young people. And once the old people have died off and we got all. the young people, then like, we're-- we're-- going. to win for forever. JON STEWART: Hard thing to wait for. But OK. ANNIE LOWREY: Right? Like, you would hear this kind of derisiveness. about Republicans, about you know, well, they're racist. and they're sexist, and they can't even do policy. They don't do policy. They didn't do the ACA. People will come to their senses and recognize. And I think that Democrats lost sight of just. what voters were telling them. I really feel this way about inflation. I really feel this way about the unlikability of candidates.

They were kind of constructing these intellectual arguments. about how voters would come home. And they didn't. And voters were very clear throughout the entirety of this. election that they were not crazy about Joe Biden, that they didn't think the economy was great, and that they felt that whether it was fair or not--. and who cares-- you know, that they felt like they--. the culture had shifted in a way that they hadn't liked. Right? JON STEWART: Right. ANNIE LOWREY: And so I think that you know, probably for Democrats, there's just like, a lot of listening to and a lot of belief. that if you're saying that, well, like good people vote for us and bad people vote.

for the other guy-- JON STEWART: Right. ANNIE LOWREY: --I think that's kind of a hard message. JON STEWART: You have to take it out of that moral component. You have to take it out of that righteousness, it almost sounds like, like-- ANNIE LOWREY: Yeah. JON STEWART: --if you're making arguments to people that. we're moral and you're immoral, boy, that's-- that's not. going to play great. And is that what, in some ways, men were reacting to, Richard? RICHARD REEVES: Yeah and I think like, to put it bluntly, a lot of men felt like the message from Democrats. wasn't that men had problems. It was that men are the problem. And--.

JON STEWART: Oh, that's-- that's interesting. RICHARD REEVES: I don't want to overstate this. And I think this is related to this triumphalism thing you. were just talking about, Jon, which is this sense of like, free at last, like, in a way. And the question is like, free at last to be what? A rampant misogynist who wants to roll back women's. rights, et cetera? That is not the median 24-year-old. man who voted for Trump. That is not why they voted. But it is a kind of like, OK, we can have a joke. I have a certain--. I'm not going to be told I'm toxic. I mean, it is interesting that the term "toxic masculinity".

was basically born in 2016, and has been a big part of the kind. of culture for those remaining--. eight years is a long time in the life of a 24-year-old. or an 18-year-old. And so I think what's happened is. that partly, as a result of the first Trump term, we're in like a-- a pinball game of backlash. We've had the backlash to the backlash to the backlash. And I've lost count. I don't know where we are at this point, but--. JON STEWART: --Bo Burnham song, for god sakes. RICHARD REEVES: It's like, I don't know where we are, but it's like-- and so a lot of men, a lot of the young men. I know, that I've talked to and feel about, it's like, it's not that they're.

actually against gender equality. or a lot of these things. They're just kind of over the earnestness. JON STEWART: Right. RICHARD REEVES: They're just over it a bit. They-- they want to just be able to just. be a little bit more. JON STEWART: And maybe it's the lack of-- of grace. But the difficulty is, in-- in the moment that we're in, social media wise, there's really no position, liberal, conservative, anything, that isn't attacked. viciously, like, by everybody. You know, it's-- how do you get at it?

How do you get people to not feel like that, when it feels. like on Twitter or on Facebook and those things, everybody is poised to attack at all times. It's not just men that are attacked. Women are attacked. Liberals are attacked. Conservatives are-- everybody attacks. ANNIE LOWREY: Yeah, it's really hard. And I think it's really hard for liberals and Democrats. when they're like, well, look what. the Republicans say about us. JON STEWART: That's-- that's my point. ANNIE LOWREY: Yeah, exactly. It's like, it's not fair. Like, what? You're-- you're saying that--. you know--. JON STEWART: You could call me a terrorist sympathizer,

but I can't call you racist? ANNIE LOWREY: You're like, dunking on gay couples. and gender diverse little kids and mixed-status families. and people who just want reproductive freedom. and people who would go march for somebody else's. rights, right? Like, what's wrong with that? It's-- it's a very tense and tough moment. And I think that you're right, Jon, to bring it back to the fact that, yeah, Trump. stoked white nationalism. That is just true. Right? JON STEWART: Right. ANNIE LOWREY: He doesn't dog whistle. He openly uses racist language, sexist language, constantly.

Constantly. And it's not just nativism. It's not just about immigrants, right? It's like literally, othering people. And so I do think that we're in this. you know, kind of dissonant moment. that's like, hard for both sides. And I agree that I don't--. I'm not sure that social media--. it's one of the ones where I'm like, I'm not sure. If we went back and we just didn't invent it, I actually think it would be better. I think so. JON STEWART: Right. ANNIE LOWREY: I'm not 100% sure on that, but I think so. JON STEWART: Right. RICHARD REEVES: But do you also-- do-- you think, Annie,

that part of what happens in these sort of backlash pinball, you know, this-- that reaction, is that what Trump's very. good at is finding picks or lines or whatever, that he knows are going to really needle the left, and will provoke them into a kind of react? Do you think he's that strategic? Because even some of his picks recently, and the stuff. he's doing since then, and you're. kind of watching the sort of meltdown. that you're seeing among a lot of people on the left, I mean, he must thrilled when he sees--. he's really hoping that the left will. go into a similar meltdown.

ANNIE LOWREY: Absolutely. RICHARD REEVES: Right. ANNIE LOWREY: Yeah. RICHARD REEVES: Do you think he's doing that deliberately? ANNIE LOWREY: I don't know that he's doing it deliberately. I think that he is pretty straightforwardly. just supporting people who supported him. He wants people who show that patronage. And the fact that they're not really qualified for the job, I just--. I think that people you know, who listen to this podcast. probably know that the HHS and CMS position, you're like an insurance administrator. You're talking to like, AHIP and the AMA and the AHA. the mighty American Hospital Association. You're dealing with like, pay schedules and FQHCs.

It's not like-- those aren't actually even health agencies. They're insurance administrators, basically. And you can't do with them what Mehmet Oz and RFK have implied. that they would like to do with them, at least. not easily, although I don't know what they'll do with them. So I don't-- you know, he's not sitting down and thinking, you know, who's a great legal mind, who would be a really prudent leader. of the administration of our legal authority, is Matt Gaetz? you know, he's like, picking the guys. that have supported him. I think it's basically just as straightforward as that,

is the sense that I've gotten. RICHARD REEVES: So it's a sort of healthy byproduct. if it also inflames the left into a sort. of massive-- you know, he's owning. the libs with them, as well. But that's the kind of second-round effect--. ANNIE LOWREY: Yeah, I've gotten a sense. it's straightforward patronage, but I. could be wrong about that. RICHARD REEVES: No, I think that's probably right. JON STEWART: I think it's-- you know, my opinion is, I agree with you. It's-- loyalty is a big factor or--. but I think we're missing the mark on the idea. that-- that these picks will not. be sufficient stewards of these agencies and administrations.

as a downside. I actually think that's why-- you know, they're running on dismantling. They're not-- you know, it's-- when we say, like, I don't think that Linda McMahon will be an official--. you know, an efficient steward OF the Department of Education. Like, right, she's not there to do that. She's there to help dismantle it in the same way. that RFK is there to dismantle HHS. And I'm not saying that, oddly enough, in the way.

of like, oh, they just want--. they ran on, "these institutions are not serving.". It's the thing that we've been hammering. Democrats on for decades. These bureaucracies have to be addressed. And they didn't do it. And they weren't able to do it efficiently. And they weren't able to do it agilely. And you watch it now, suddenly, they can do it. Oh, yeah, OK, executive order on the border? Yeah, I actually am allowed to do that. Oh, wait, we can give Ukraine that?

Yeah, just go do it. They're suddenly governing with urgency. So I would suggest--. and I would ask your opinions about this--. but these picks are there to do exactly what the Trump. voters wanted them to do. And in a large degree, a lot of Democratic voters. have been begging the Democrats to do, which is, get out of this status-quo institutional thinking. and make government more responsive and agile. if you can.

ANNIE LOWREY: So the real question that I. have has to do with Congress. JON STEWART: Right. ANNIE LOWREY: You know, Congress. appropriates the money. Congress creates the rules. There is just reams of administrative law. and huge numbers of lobbyists and huge numbers. of civil servants that are really dedicated to the idea. that the executive branch executes. They don't actually make the policy. except at a granular kind of rule-making level. And so the question is, what is Trump. going to do with Congress? Because to do the really big stuff, you do need Congress and also the courts.

And I could be proven completely wrong about this, but this is a Court that has really deferred to Congress's. power to actually, you know, set budgets, and has not wanted to give power to the agencies. to kind of overstep. But I don't know that that is going. to be how that gets interpreted by this Court, by these courts. I really-- these-- all I have is questions, here. And I would agree with you that like,

forget who he's naming to the top of agencies. Republicans are very set up to name really smart. deputy secretaries, undersecretaries, chiefs. of staff who actually really understand how these agencies. work, and could really degrade the capacity, slow things down, speed things up. You need people who know how to actually do it. First Trump administration didn't have that. Second Trump administration does. because you've had a lot of Republicans. getting ready for this. So they're going to be much more effective. administrators and executives. JON STEWART: In some ways, it's demo day. It's sort of like when you watch every makeover show,

and they're going to walk in there and be like, guess what, agencies? It's demo day. And they're going to go in there with some sledgehammers, I think. ANNIE LOWREY: Yeah. And so Congress, that's my question. RICHARD REEVES: But I think part of the framing. here is like, what's the destination? Can you actually achieve this? Can you pass the law? Can you get the Department for Education abolished. or set up this new-- whatever. But I actually think what Trump's--. Trump's much more of a directional politician. He's more about the directionality. than he is about the destination. It's not whether he can actually get to that place,

it's that he's pointing in that direction. And I think the same will be true around the deportation. stuff and a lot of things. And so I think what he does is, he. signals through these sorts of picks. and through these policies, just directionally, that's. the way I would like to go. And then quite often, he's thwarted. in doing so by all the things. But it kind of, at that point, politically. doesn't matter because he's signaled, that's the direction I would like to go in, even. if I end up not being able to. JON STEWART: Vision and leadership.

I mean, that is-- you know, when you give people. the direction you're going, as long as you have a clarity. of vision, there's a certain amount. of flexibility of process as long as you know--. you spoke about destination. I'll tell you what I think may occur. And I think it's something Republicans. and the right have been really good at, which is, if you can't make something illegal, make it impossible. And I think we saw that in the reproductive fight, which is, you know, we haven't been able to make it illegal. But I'll tell you what we can do. Let's make it so you've got to have, even if you're a small Planned Parenthood. or a small reproductive health thing,

you need three anesthesiologists. and four operating rooms, or you can't open. So it's not illegal, but it's sure as hell impossible. ANNIE LOWREY: Absolutely. And you know, Republicans are very, very, very effective at this. They're great at doing things like applying work. requirements, shortening re-enrollment periods, working through sludge. One of the great kind of ironies of the Musk and Vivek. focus on administration and making government more. efficient is that Republicans are like, the great geniuses at.

making government less efficient for political ends. that they can't accomplish through legislation. You've seen this actually, with immigration, right? We're not going to make it illegal for you to immigrate. We're going to make it impossible. And so you know, I'm again, just interested to see. what they do. But there's a lot of kind of just. like standard and shitification that. can achieve political ends. And I think that they'll be pretty good at it. JON STEWART: If that's not coined--. wait. Annie, if that's not on a T-shirt somewhere. or a bumper sticker--. ANNIE LOWREY: Yeah.

JON STEWART: That word-- that that word must be coined. Richard, it can't be just, we got to get Democrat. leaders on better podcasts. There's something fundamental going on here. And do you see it turning around in some respects? And do you see a pathway to that? RICHARD REEVES: Yeah, I think if the Democrats take. the lesson from this election that they need to focus on A, a communications strategy that meets people where they are. rather than where they think they ought to be, which down weights some of the cultural issues. we've talked about, and I think actually.

gets past some of the zero-sum thinking on gender, I mean, it is true, I think, that the Democrats. thought, at some level, that they could. win as the Women's Party. And they can't. We do rise together. And there are a lot of mums out there. who are worried about their daughter's access. to reproductive health care, but also desperately worried. about their son's mental health and whether their husband's. going to get a job or not. And so a politician from the Democrat side, who can speak. to those concerns across gender, and especially for working-class Americans,

and to do so authentically, I think that's the real lesson. to draw from this, rather than the more reactive pinball one. we might get. If a politician emerges that can speak to a class-sensitive, across gender constituency, I think that they could win, but it all depends on how they interpret this election result. JON STEWART: Annie, do you anything like that. on the horizon, or any individual on the horizon, that you think can-- can start to-- to broach that? ANNIE LOWREY: Yeah, look, I think there's actually. a ton of talent on the Democratic side that's. been somewhat overlooked. I think that there's a lot of state politicians.

that are really great, that are chomping at the bit, that are desperate. You might have heard of this guy, Pete Buttigieg. He's very you know, shy about--. about stating his ambitions. RICHARD REEVES: I've never heard of him. JON STEWART: I don't follow the cable news. ANNIE LOWREY: But-- but I think that they will--. I do think that they're already talking about like, OK, are we going to do? Let's do universal pre-K. Your three-year-old, you don't have to worry about it at this point. Really simple policy making like that, cheap rent, cheap gas, and then kind. of driving towards that center. That's my guess. And I think that they'll be reactive to whatever.

it is that the Trump administration does. And you know, so much of negative partisanship. is more powerful than partisanship, still. You know, like, Trump is going to have to run on his record. as opposed to against Joe Biden and Kamala Harris. And whoever the next Democrat is, is going to have this--. certainly anarchic administration to run against. And you know, I think that we're just going to have. to see what that looks like. JON STEWART: And up until recently, it. does seem like incumbency, rather than being. the power that launches you, is a bit of an albatross.

around the neck. And so in some respects, maybe the headwinds--. it wouldn't have mattered what the Democrats done. We can parse their podcast strategy and communication. and all those things, but perhaps the hill of incumbency. and the dissatisfaction in the country. would have been too steep to climb. But I really appreciate the both of you, and would love to continue the conversation more. Thank you guys, both. Richard Reeves, President of the American Institute for Boys. and Men, author of Boys and Men, and Why the Modern Male is Struggling, and of course, Annie Lowrie, Staff Writer at The Atlantic.

Guys, thanks so much. RICHARD REEVES: Thank you. ANNIE LOWREY: Thank you. [THEME MUSIC]. JON STEWART: You know, I thought. it was very interesting-- and I'm with, as of course, Brittany Mehmedovic, Lauren Walker. and Gillian Speer we were laying. out the case, right, about why men didn't go for it. And I think Annie very passionately, very cohesively, very powerfully, laid out the stakes for women.

And it really was one of those where I was like, yeah, I guess nobody--. I mean, I guess it was important to some people, but men--. I think men probably agreed. But then they thought, well, I'd really. like to do the Trump dance. LAUREN WALKER: Probably. I know that really stood out to me. I do hear what Richard is saying, that a group of people. were not addressed, like men. I will say, women have not felt necessarily addressed. for a pretty long time.

I also want to raise the point that like, two things can be true at once. It can be true that men were not addressed. It can also be true that there's. some sexism and racism--. JON STEWART: Baked into the cake. LAUREN WALKER: Right. Every election, the person who has. spent the most money has won, except in two cases, the women. Just saying. JON STEWART: Is that true? LAUREN WALKER: Yeah. JON STEWART: So are you suggesting. that the women were spending their money frivolously? Is that what you were saying? LAUREN WALKER: Ladies be shopping. JON STEWART: Lauren, that is so sexist that I am shocked.

LAUREN WALKER: I was hoping you would understand my takeaway. No, I just-- I think two things can be true. And it's just-- it's just not the case. that the country is not sexist. GILLIAN SPEAR: You know, I'm sort of of the mind. that the Democrats lost rather than Trump won. And maybe that's a coping mechanism. But I was really struck by what you said, JoN, and what Annie built upon so well, which is that there has been this lack. of vision and leadership within the Democratic Party. You have to pass spending measures that. help people with the same fervor.

that the right passes these tax cuts. You can't just be austerity, but woke. And maybe that sounds crazy, because they did pass. these spending bills, they did pass the infrastructure bill, but the effects of that won't materialize for years. JON STEWART: Well, I think that's it. When you triage a population, your consumer base, you have to triage them, you have to protect their future, but you have to address, as the famous phrase would be, "the fierce urgency of now.". I do think they would have had to have.

match it with a leadership and vision that--. I just think the headwinds were really, really stiff. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: I agree. I mean, she could have gone on every podcast, but if you don't have, like--. if you're not able to communicate efficiently. about what you're going to do for people, it doesn't matter how many conversations you have. You have to be able to back up and let people feel. heard about their concerns. JON STEWART: And the broader change. of-- of how you're going to-- you. know, that famous question on The View, what would you do differently?

Oh, I can't think of anything. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. JON STEWART: That-- that showed that. I'm not saying that was determinative, but I really think that they were up against it. Do the listeners-- are we getting questions on like, the election right now? Like, what's the feedback, coming in on that? Or is it still, how tall are you? That sort of thing. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: We've got a healthy mix. JON STEWART: All right. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: The first one, do you have any plans to go to Mar-a-Lago to kiss the ring? Do you think there will be any retribution. against the late night host? JON STEWART: Oh, that?

Probably. Probably some. Maybe some in subtle form, some maybe more explicit. I'm not going down there right now, obviously. My membership to the club is pending. [LAUGHTER]. You know, I assume they're going to call my references--. LAUREN WALKER: Yes. JON STEWART: And-- they'll look into things. And then I'll--. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah, of course. LAUREN WALKER: I've gotten a call. JON STEWART: That's-- that's exactly right. I tell them I could--. I happen to be someone who is very. adept at chandelier polishing. That-- that might be--. Joe and Mika going down there might be one of my favorite--.

when they had to come out and go, "and so we did," like, they spent the year going, this man will destroy. all that you hold dear. He is a Hitler-Mussolini cocktail mix. And we must all say--. literally one week later, they're like, so we go, we have lunch, a light lunch. [LAUGHTER]. I get the watercress salad. And you know Joey. He loves shrimp fra diavolo.

So he-- and the Mar-a-Lago shrimp fra diavolo. is delicious. I thought that was one of the more remarkable--. but it shows the performative nature. of so much of-- of all of this shit, which is, again, when you talk about credibility, like, eej. LAUREN WALKER: Well, specifically, in terms of news, they probably want some access because that's. where their money comes from. JON STEWART: I don't even know if it's access as much as like,

you're the king and we serve at the pleasure--. like, please hold me in graces so that I too am allowed--. you know, I don't know. LAUREN WALKER: Well, they got a whole morning out of. it, though. JON STEWART: Yeah, that is true. That is-- that is true. And they live nearby, so maybe it's--. GILLIAN SPEAR: It's convenient. JON STEWART: Maybe it's literally just, you know what? We just decided to be neighborly. It was a welcome wagon. GILLIAN SPEAR: You have to get lunch somewhere. LAUREN WALKER: Don't let politics get. into the way of friendship. JON STEWART: Yeah. But listen, man, these guys are not shy about, like, there will.

be retribution for people. And so I'm-- I'm just going to take them at their word. I assume that-- something. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: We've got your back. JON STEWART: oh, thank you. Thank you. That's-- the full force of the United States Government is. coming back down on me, and you guys will be like, hey, man, we're good. That's-- that's lovely. Thank you. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: All right, JFK'S cabinet. was nicknamed the best and the brightest. So far, what would Trump's cabinet be called? JON STEWART: Wow. The best and the brightest had good alliteration.

So I think we're going to have to find alliteration. in that, in some respects. Right now, I think they'd be called like, these motherfuckers over here. But like, I don't know. It really is like--. he's like, who'd you bring? I brought these motherfuckers over here. LAUREN WALKER: Maybe, like, Grab Bag Gang or something. They feel so random. JON STEWART: It does. But what's interesting about it is, I almost think the cabinet is secondary to the posse. Like, did you guys watch any of--.

he went to UFC. Did you see the walkout? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. JON STEWART: Like, that's the walkout. Like, that's the cabinet. That's-- the cabinet is like, we come out to music. it's like they're getting ready for a prizefight. And they come out to the music, and they all come, and it's-- it's--. it's quite glamorous. Yeah, we don't know-- we don't know what's going to happen, but a lovely question. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: What Trump cabinet appointee would. you feel most comfortable inviting. to Thanksgiving dinner?

JON STEWART: My home? To invite them to my home? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. JON STEWART: Do you have one that you would bring? I'm trying to think of--. GILLIAN SPEAR: Well, how close do you. live to an elementary school? Is a good question. [LAUGHTER]. JON STEWART: Alleged, Gillian, alleged. How dare you! Oh, the legal letters that are flowing. You know, you're never going to get on Jeopardy with that kind. of attitude, lady. GILLIAN SPEAR: They're never going to let me on the show. JON STEWART: Yeah, I would-- you know,

you try and think like--. I'm trying to think about our Thanksgiving. And it is-- like, we usually have about 20, 25 people over. at the house. I stay in the kitchen because I do a lot of the cooking, and it keeps me from having to talk to anybody. So it's, who would I like my family to have to deal with? GILLIAN SPEAR: Oh, my god. LAUREN WALKER: You could really offer some contrast. to make you look great. GILLIAN SPEAR: How much do you like your family? JON STEWART: You know what? I'd like to-- yeah, I'm trying to think.

Hegseth. I think Hegseth, I'd like to bring in. GILLIAN SPEAR: Oh, OK. JON STEWART: --because I think the older folks. that are there would just be like, who is this handsome gentleman? GILLIAN SPEAR: Yes. JON STEWART: Yeah, you want to go-- you want to go hard edge. You don't want to go like, Linda McMahon. You're like, you want to make a splash. You want to fuck Thanksgiving up. That's what it's about. Shake this shit up. What else we got, Brittany? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: All right, on Thanksgiving, how do I handle my mother's constructive criticisms. about everything, career, relationships, looks?

JON STEWART: Let me tell you something. This is Brittany? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: I didn't write. this in, just so you know. JON STEWART: The Thanksgiving criticism is right up my alley. My mother, god bless her, you know, it's really actually one of the most difficult things. about aging, is to watch someone. slowly lose their ability to criticize you--. [LAUGHTER]. --where it-- where they-- they just don't seem as interested. It's devastating. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Are you nostalgic?

JON STEWART: Here's the story. So my mother had--. she's 91, 91 years old, and still, like, completely with-- yeah. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Good genes. JON STEWART: Phenomenally smart. She gets pneumonia last--. right around this time last year, right around Christmas, she gets pneumonia. So they admit her to the hospital. She's there for five, six days. And I go to get her, to pick her up, to take her home after six days in the hospital. She's still like-- pneumonia knocks you on your ass. LAUREN WALKER: Yeah.

JON STEWART: She's lying in the hospital. bed, tube of oxygen in her nose, the IV in her arm, it's quiet. Doot, doot, doot. I come in. Mom, Mom, it's time to go home. Mom. She opens her eyes slowly from the bed, looks at me and goes, you look tired. [LAUGHTER]. I'm like, what? GILLIAN SPEAR: She's still got it. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Zing! JON STEWART: Yeah, it was just like, you're going to be OK.

But that, like-- you have to make a game of it. Like, you just have to enjoy it. All right, let me do-- let me do one more, and then we'll-- and then we'll move on. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: This one's good. JON STEWART: All right. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: What's your favorite Thanksgiving. dinner side dish or dessert? What do you chefing up, Jon? JON STEWART: Well, let me tell you something. I wish I could be like, I make a compote that you. guys wouldn't believe. Like, it's straight up like, fucking mashed potatoes, like all the-- the classics. The craziest I'll get is, like sweet potato pie--.

GILLIAN SPEAR: The good shit. JON STEWART: --and get that nice marshmallow in there. But there is nothing in there that you would not have. eaten on Thanksgiving in 1952. Like, I have made no advancements. I have made no innovation. [LAUGHTER]. Like, as crazy as it gets, it's like, what if that apple crumb pie had a caramel drizzle on it? And people would be like--. GILLIAN SPEAR: Well, that's something. JON STEWART: The only thing that we. do sometimes-- so we have a lot of celiac in our family. So we'll make stuffing that's like,

gluten free or-- you know, that's the only thing, like, a gluten-free pumpkin pie, a gluten-free apple. pie, like--. but it is all straight up traditional football game, heavy food, ton of gravy, like--. LAUREN WALKER: Sleepy times. JON STEWART: Sleepy times. That's it. Well, I hope you guys have a wonderful Thanksgiving. Lead producer Lauren Walker, producer Brittany Mehmedovic, video editor and engineer Rob Vitolo, who is back from paternity leave tired but unbroken.

So we welcome Rob back, of course, audio editor. and engineer Nicole Boyce, researcher. and associate producer Gillian Spear, and our executive producers Chris McShane and Katie Gray, I hope everybody has a lovely Thanksgiving, enjoys themselves. And we will see you back in December. for more neurotic hand-wringing, et cetera. See you guys next time. The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart. is a Comedy Central podcast.

It's produced by Paramount Audio and Busboy Productions. [THEME MUSIC].