Jon Stewart on Trump’s Win and What’s Next w/ Heather Cox Richardson | The Weekly Show

how do we stop the Democrats from. learning all the wrong lessons from this. loss that now that's a bumper sticker I. want to see on somebody's. [Music]. car hey. everybody Welcome to the weekly show I'm. John Stewart uh how's your week how's it. anything going on you having a you. having a pleasant week you having how. was your I'm going to say how was your. Wednesday I'm not going to say how was. your Tuesday I was say welcome to season.

two of uh America presents the [ __ ] show. I have to say that uh I don't have a ton. of pronouncements based on this I I you. know. 2016 uh I really felt like that was a. gut punch in a way because it felt like. such a fat toome plea that uh the. Democrats were going to win you were. going to feel uh good about it there. were things that maybe you weren't going. to like policy-wise but but you felt. good so.

it felt like an. anomaly this feels different because it. is a. democratic Victory it's it's it was a wi. you know I I feel like we were prepared. for all scenarios and each one of those. scenarios it was how is Donald Trump. going to finagle his way back into the. way how is he going to use undemocratic. principles what what measure of. intimidation and underhanded sh.

shenanigan will this man use to worm his. way back into the Oval Office and and it. turned out he used our electoral. system as it is. designed and in that moment I thought. well [ __ ] I'm not sure we have a team of. lawyers for that I don't know if we have. a team of canvassers for that which by. the way I don't ever in my life want to. hear about our vaunted ground game will.

put us over the top it's a 50/50 tossup. race we're sure of it but the vaunted. ground game turns out. that people knocking on other people's. doors doesn't get them to do what you. want them to do as I believe vacuum and. Bible salesmen probably have known for. many many. centuries uh [ __ ] us [ __ ]. me uh I was.

wrong will continue to be. wrong I love to sit back and think about. the autopsy and and where you move from. there but I think I still feel as though. I'm in that that moment of vertigo to. some. extent you know in the same way that I. you know when I decided to stop drinking. I didn't do it while the room was still. spinning I didn't I did I didn't stop. doing you know booze and.

drugs you know in that moment of of. lying on the floor face down trying to. wonder if I just move my hand here will. the room stop and I think I think that's. a wise way of looking at it I think you. have to be more cleare eyed have your. balance uh and and your feet underneath. you before you can start really thinking. about just just what it. was that made what you think your. worldview is and the things that you.

were certain about not certain uh but I. will tell you this that man I still. believe in in in this country and I. still believe in individuals and I still. believe in the power of change and. organization and goodness competence I. mean for God's sakes the Mets made the. playoffs if that can.

happen with the injuries that they it's. probably not the time uh there are very. few people that I want to talk to right. now but one of them has been gracious. enough to join us today and I'm. delighted so I'm just going to get right. to that before I continue to babble so. let's. go all right so we're where you we're. just going to get uh right to it there. is uh an individual that I'm delighted. could join us today her knowledge and.

insight into our system into the the. context of it into all those uh. intricacies is unparalleled and we're. delighted she can join us Professor. Heather Cox Richardson author of. democracy Awakening notes on the state. of America Professor thank you for. joining us ah it's a pleasure to be here. oh is it a pleasure to do anything right. now I can't does even ice cream tastes. good in this current scenario that we. are experiencing well to be honest I.

haven't eaten since uh Tuesday so I. would say not on that front but it is. important to reinforce community and it. is always a pleasure to talk to you well. thank you thank you so much Heather how. did you. experience uh election night was this. something that caught you off guard was. it something that was expected what was. your experience on the night um you know. I I I don't think it was unexpected I. think it was I think we all had hopes. that Americans had heard just how bad. things would be under Donald Trump and.

would decide even if they didn't like. the policies of Harrison walls that they. would go that direction and that's not. what happened and I think there are. lessons to be taken from that the most. important for me being that we're in a. in a in a swirl of disinformation in. this country so that a lot of people who. voted for Trump really truly voted for. things that were the opposite of what. they say they wanted and that's that's a. real problem going forward right in in. terms of what exactly cuz it's almost if.

I'm thinking about kind of uh and I boil. it down to the commercials that I was. watching for all the candidates it feels. in some respect. that what they told you to be afraid of. was better than what we told you to be. afraid of you know they were basically. selling a migrant Invasion a trans. Invasion I mean almost every commercial. touched on either one of those and it. seemed as though from.

the left it was we are selling you that. democracy is going to be over and it. seems like the people went I'm more. afraid of the migrants than I am of our. system being uh eradicated does that. feel accurate well that may be accurate. but one of the things that I think we're. going to have to Grapple with going. forward is that there has always been so. much wiggle room in the strength of the. United States that it was okay to. backslide a little bit because the guard. rails were there to keep us on track and. I think a lot of people can't imagine a.

world in which those guard rails aren't. there but they really aren't I mean we. what we have done is we have voted to. get rid of the ones that are left. because they have been so eroded over. the past 40 years really so I think what. would those guard rails be Heather if I. could well I'll get there but I do want. to speak to what you just said about the. things to fear I think that's really. important that the right-wing emphasized. things that ordinary Americans had to. fear that were not real and they erased. the things and they erased the things. that are real I mean objectively our.

economy is fabulous one of the best. economies or the best economy we've had. since the 1960s real wages for 80% of. Americans have gone up income for the. top 20% has gone down in that period. those are generally things that most. voters would like but they don't know. that they think the economy is terrible. it's a failing economy and that Trump is. going to come in with his tariffs and. save that and every Economist will say. that's exactly backward so I think you. have to grab Le with the fact that.

people have been put into a position of. something that that political theorists. especially coming out of Russia called. political technology which is that you. can get people to vote away their. democracy or to vote for the people that. they are told to vote for so long as you. create a false world for them to believe. in and I think that that's really what. we have seen right here right let me ask. you about that because I that's. fascinating to me because I do think. they created an an emotional. reality but there is a hint of it in. there and that's and that's.

this you know we look objectively at the. markers for the economy in terms of GDP. or wages or uh infrastructure investment. and all those things as. being the Envy of the world our country. right now is is thriving in a way that. other countries are not but if in your. house you're still. struggling is the sense that okay okay.

maybe the system that we're selling to. people no longer feels valid to them in. other words if our economic system we. look at and say this is thriving but. people don't feel it do they start to. begin to say well maybe the system. itself isn't. delivering in a way that we need so then. when you. say this is to protect the system uh. they think why would I protect something. that's not delivering for me even when.

it's working. properly well yes except I think it's. important to recognize that the system. under which we live from 1981 to 2021. neoliberalism the idea that you were. going to rely on markets and let all the. money go to the top because people at. the top would invest more efficiently. than if the government got involved. either through regulation or taxes um. that system Joe Biden very. deliberately deconstructed and and. replaced with the system we had had. before that that did work for everybody.

he invested in ordinary Americans he. stood for unions he used the FTC to. break up monopolies and to get rid of. junk fees and to try and make it easier. for people to start businesses all the. things that should have made ordinary. Americans say hey yeah this pretty good. we had inflation but wages went up. faster than inflation and yeah eggs were. more expensive but that's because there. was a bird flu and then there was price. gouging all of these things that people. like you and me tried to get out there. but that is not what voters heard heard. what they heard is eggs are more.

expensive products are more expensive. it's Joe Biden's fault instead of the. people who had really ruled from TW uh. from 1981 to 2021 and instead what have. they done they have elected somebody who. has vowed to put those old things back. into place right and make their lives. more expensive and then turn around and. blame the what they call the liberals. who they think are responsible for the. cost of things because of their policies. and because they have been welcoming to. immigrants who also are important to our. economy Heather you brought up a really.

interesting point which is people are. voting to return to A system that they. seem to be rejecting but what was so. interesting to me when you talked about. neoliberalism and supply side the. Democrats have embraced that in similar. ways I mean Clinton famously deregulated. financial institutions which you could. point to as the 2008 crisis. Genesis I don't know what you just. described to me about the economic.

policies of the Biden Administration is. the first time I heard it framed that. way which is just killing me because. while what you're saying is exactly true. you know after the Reagan Revolution the. Democrats made a decision that they were. going to try and go after the vote the. Reagan voters and so yes they did Purge. from their ranks all of the people who. were arguing to go back to the sort of. liberal consensus of the period after. World War II but Biden has been every. day he's been out there saying saying. this is exactly what I'm doing and why.

I'm doing it and you know literally he's. even comparing some of his policies to. those of FDR and it just never cracked. into the media there was somebody who. was out there yesterday saying an. economics reporter that I won't name. saying you know people want to get rid. of neoliberalism and I'm like we did we. did and nobody knows it and you voted to. go back to it and instead of going back. to neoliberalism what we're going to go. go to is autocracy which is a different. thing right because it will not be. governed by the rule of law it will be.

governed by cronyism and the kind of. corruption that we've seen in other. autocracies that's not what people think. they're voting for they think they're. voting for The ideas that Biden embraced. investing in the middle class investing. in creating a new economy and in fact. they've just voted that away in favor of. a system of autocracy you know Heather I. almost would go you one further and say. it's almost a rejection of Biden's. economic policy in the that the.

consensus in the media was that that. caused the inflation you know I can't. tell you how many times I've heard oh uh. we it was just that last bit of stimulus. that kept people in their houses and fed. that made it so that the inflation is so. unbearable now in no way Reckoning with. the complexity of inflation or the. complexity uh of our economy and in some. ways I think locking in that feeling. that if you stimulate the economy on the. demand side you will necessarily Drive.

inflation yeah and that's actually the. way it was portrayed but I think you're. making a bigger point and that is what. this rejection of the Biden economic. plan has shown to Future politicians is. that there is no upside in trying to. invest in ordinary Americans that you. will not get rewarded for it so there's. no reason to do that and that's a really. big lesson that is I think going to end. up really coming back to bite the people.

who have voted for it you've just said. to any future politicians do not bother. actually to try and do things for the. middle class because they won't. appreciate it instead you should go. ahead and simply continue to you know to. pervert their their information base so. that they think you're doing something. even though you're not right invest more. in the strategies of uh Distortion. reality Distortion fields and and and. create those it it was so interesting. because in this election it did seem to.

be a populist competition you know but. the Democrats kind of abandoned that I. think Bernie Sanders quite eloquently. and angrily put it recently but I can. remember tuning in there was one. specific day where I thought I don't. know where I live anymore Donald Trump. was in a barber shop talking to you know. guys sitting around getting their. haircut and kamla Harris was on the road. kind of hugging Dick Cheney and Liz.

chain and I thought well now I don't I. don't even really. know what we're what what are these. coalitions anymore well I think that. that's a really interesting observation. and it is worth pointing out that Trump. did not tell the people in that barber. shop that he was going to be using it as. a photo opportunity and the person who. owned the barber shop complained about. that said yeah deception right but I. think what I saw and what I thought was. really hopeful I really thought we were. looking at a new itical moment in the. United States because what Harris did is.

she moved very deliberately to a. bipartisan Center that looked a lot like. a like an Eisenhower Coalition or like a. Teddy Roosevelt Coalition and bringing. Tim Walls on board who was of course. he's a Democratic governor of Minnesota. but his approach to the kinds of. progressive politics he put in place in. Minnesota is very very much like. traditional Republican progressivism. from the early 20th century which was. enormously popular so to bring him on.

board with the Democratic vision for an. economic uh you know recovery for. ordinary people and to jettison the. identity politics that had been. associated with the Democrats I really. thought was an attempt to go back to. this Centrist Coalition that really. could have power lasting power for. Generations I really thought that was. going to happen right and I still think. if you think about the way Americans. think about issues that is the sweet. spot for American politics but I also. think think in this moment what we have.

just learned is that that. realistic approach to politics cannot. stand against the modern techniques of. propaganda that are that are enabled by. social media and and that I think is. going to force a real Reckoning with the. meeing of American politics going. forward although I have to say Heather. the way you're framing it is a lot more. concise and digestible for me than what. I have heard on the media or even from.

the campaign itself uh I wouldn't have. minded a kind of explicit statement of. that because I think that is more. persuasive in in to towards that end. that feels like a pretty. persuasive uh kind of coalition to build. and and you know let's think about this. you know Steve Bannon is famously the. strategist for uh or was a strategist. for Donald Trump and for whatever else. you think what he. envisioned is kind of what came true he.

thought let's go after the white working. class populist uh uh Center that was the. Democrat. strength combine that with our. evangelicals and all the other things. and we'll create this durable voting. coalition that's kind of a trojan horse. for these autocratic Tendencies yes yes. but I think you're looking at it in a a. very different way than I am and I think.

they're looking at it much more the way. that modern politicians look at it as. they're trying to build coalitions and. that's actually if you care very post. 1960 when there was a real revolution in. the way people did did politics okay but. what I'm suggesting is that the heart of. politics is the way people think about. the world and what Steve Bannon has said. and been part of really since Andrew. Breitbart died and he took over. Breitbart remember that sure he actually. changed Breitbart a lot you know. Breitbart had been uh a certain kind of. thinker Bannon came in and really turned.

Breitbart and this is a long time ago. now for a lot of people and and maybe. it's worth thinking about him more. generally but he really started bashing. women and people of color and talking. about them as really inferior and that. was part of an ideology and it's an. ideology that I think we have seen come. to the four and that is the ideology. that we need to reject democracy because. democracy insists that we treat. everybody equally before the Law lgbtq. plus people women minorities ethnic and. racial and religious minorities right.

and that that equality flies in the face. of paternalism especially Christian. paternalism run by white men and Bannon. could say for example as he was bashing. black Americans or women that he was not. actually prejudiced against them or. biased against them he was actually. trying to help them because they would. do better in a system where they were. subordinate to white male leaders and I. think what you have seen here in this. election is the coming together of the. tech Bros who want to get rid of the.

kinds of regulations that our government. has put in place to to make sure we. treat people equally before the law and. that you don't treat some people as if. they are able to go do whatever they. want to get rid of those regulations and. they have come together with those. Christian nationalists who also want to. return to a white male Christian. patriarchy and now with autocrats who. would love simply to get rid of. regulations so that they can run the. economy and put money into their own. pockets and that difference in ideology.

between people who believe that some. people are better than others that have. the right to rule and people like me who. actually believe that people should be. treated equally before the law and have. a right to aay in their government is. fundamentally the struggle that we've. had throughout our history and that we. are seeing now and that I really on. Tuesday looks like the Democracy side. lost the old battle that I think most. people maybe my age and maybe a little. bit older slightly younger saw was it. was our form of liberal democracy.

Freedom uh individual rights versus. communism versus authoritarian States it. was capitalism versus communism it was. Freedom versus. authoritarianism this seems like a. realignment of to put it you know in. current Parliament woke versus unwoke. and it's an alignment that brings. paradoxically this group draped in we. the people and symbol IC American. iconography in line with the.

illiberal Russia and Hungary because. what you're suggesting is the common. cause through this protection of classic. Western Civilization which is as you. said sort of a more white Christian male. leadership but if that's the case how do. we explain inroads into black. communities and Latino communities are. they voting on something different did. they not believe that did they do they.

view it as oh we're in that club now how. how do you how would you explain that. well first of all um there's a reason. that the Trump people carry Confederate. flags you know that's you cannot forget. that there's there is and carry Nazi. Flags I mean that's that's not to say. they embrace all the different aspects. of those different political movements. but all of those movements are ones that. talk about a small group of people. exercising their will and power over a. majority over people who are not like.

them and if you think about the ways in. which Hispanic voters uh the Hispanic. male voters switched to Trump and and U. some black voters did as well fewer than. I think the holsters suggested would. happen but also that white female female. Latino uh voters as well um and white. women I mean the real thing you know we. can talk about the different groups of. minority voters but this is white people. who put Trump in power let's not forget. that including white women who will die. from lack of of uh Medical Care going.

forward and you know the way I think. about it is rather than thinking about. politics as being um you know sort of. coalitions is really politics should be. about governance but it can be about. power and the way I think about it is if. you have you know 10 people in a in a. room eight of them just want to get by. you know they just want to put food on. the table and have a good time and have. their friends and and have a nice life. but there are two people who want to. control everybody else and the way that. they get that power is to get six people.

to turn against the two at the bottom. and the way that you use the way that. you do that is through the stories you. tell so if you can tell those people in. the middle that those two people at the. bottom and you can pick them at random. you know because of the clothes they. wear or the color of their eyes or the. skin or whatever then you can get power. from those other six and that would. explain to me anyway why um why people. of color will turn against other groups. of color or why white women will vote.

against their own interests or you know. because they are hearing stories that. say you must turn against those two. people at the bottom or we're going to. turn against you and it's it's why I do. what I do is because I think the stories. we tell about who we are and the. communities we are are the way that you. Garner power then have we had if it's. about the stories we tell have we been. lying to ourselves is this is this idea. of American exceptionalism or this idea.

of uh a more perfect union or this idea. of uh you know the Arc of the moral. Universe bends towards Justice are these. mythologies as well that that we've told. ourselves are a a Birthright of the. Enlightenment of our of our early. thinkers is it that the system that we. designed that was written with quill. pens on. parchment is no match for the realities.

of a modern digital age those are two. separate questions they are I I would. say and I've thought believe me I've. been spending a couple of you know I've. just been thinking you know because. that's what I do when something goes. wrong because I do think this moment. forces us to reconsider the meaning of. American democracy and whether in fact. it is possible to have a democracy of 3. 332 million people which we can get to. and I think that that's really important. a multicultural democracy of 332 people. or just a democracy just a democracy. just a democracy and and I would like to.

talk about that because I've given them. a lot of thought and I think I have. ideas but in terms of the stories we. tell yeah I do want to point out that we. are not in the same place we were in. 1776 that in fact things have gotten. better for a lot of people and the. reason that they have gotten better for. a lot of people is because a lot of. people working together build a strong. economy and we have access to resources. and so on and so forth right but the. stories we tell about how we got there. need to be inclusive stories and my take.

on them is that we have gotten to where. we are because of the agency of. individual human beings working to make. the world better for everybody and that. justes that's not the 1776 project that. says we've always been great and anybody. who says otherwise is wrong that's. authoritarianism right um because it. says you want to get back to a perfect. past and you can do it so long as you. get rid of these people in the way and. it is not the kind of critiques that you. get from the American left or have in.

the past that say that our system is so. corrupted by racism and sexism that it. needs to be torn down what my version of. History has always said is that people. are going to people you know we have in. America no great difference than anybody. else we do really great things and we do. really crappy things because we're. people but that our story if it is. predicated on the idea that everybody. should be treated equally before the law. and should have equal access to. education and opportunity and a say in. their government will in fact do what is.

best for the majority the majority of. the time that's not to say we're not. going to screw up sure we'll also do. brilliant things but mostly it will be. stable and it will continue to be. prosperous and and just and um I don't. think that's a fantasy I think you can. think about America that way and and. honor people like Fanny Lamer for. expanding the vote while also. recognizing that she was beaten almost. to death I mean those two things are not.

either one of them lies so I think that. that's one of the stories that we need. to tell and have not told for a long. time right to the second part of that. question so about American democracy in. this moment you know it's always been a. question whether or not democracy for. such a large area of of land would. survive right and we have we've squeaked. it out again and again and again now I'm. an institutionalist and that means I. really think that one of things that has. protected Us in the past is our.

institutions the rule of law above all. right and what we did on Tuesday was we. put in place somebody who has made it. clear he does not intend to honor the. rule of law and he is enabled by a. supreme court that it says he does not. have to honor the honor the rule of law. right and in the short term I think what. that means and I think people are going. to be very surprised we just ended the. American Century um which was the idea. after World War II that liberal. democracy and the guard rails that it.

established around the world were going. to stabilize the globe and they have. stabilized the globe we've had Freedom. of the Seas we've had far fewer Wars. than we had before that establishment of. those princi or just smaller smaller. pockets of right but not world wars yes. okay that's gone I mean we just we just. walked away from that but it does raise. the question of whether democracy is. viable across this many across 332. million people that that aside from even. the fact that there are so many.

different kinds of people involved in it. and and that I think is a real question. um that we have to Grapple with and I. would maintain I think that we have just. demonstrated that it's not that we need. to figure out ways to make our system. more responsive to the American people. in a way that it really hasn't been. since 1929 when we when we capped the. House of Representatives so that now an. average Representatives district is over. half a million people right um and and.

in so many different ways but but this. is a theoretical crisis as well as an on. theg ground crisis and solving either. one of those two things is going to have. to be married to each other but also. this isn't a question of saying I can. just get one more voter it's a question. of figuring out if in fact democracy. continues to be viable in the 21st. century because you know xiin Pang and. Vladimir Putin and Victor orbon say it's. not not and now the Republicans say it's.

not and the question is will the rest of. us say yes it is and here's how we're. going to show that it's viable so you. you brought up a to me you've hit upon. the. absolute Crux of of everything that this. election spoke about and I'm in no. position certainly and in this moment to. say you know here's what went wrong and. here's what we should do but I think you. hit upon the Crux of something which is. a feeling that the American democracy is. no longer responsive. to the needs of its people to me that.

then means that Donald Trump is a. symptom of a much deeper corruption in. the democratic system that needs to be. addressed because if it is not we will. forever be more. vulnerable to these types of demagogues. or or this type of disruption so then. the question. becomes can you make a system for 320. million people by the way a diverse. group of people and you know those lines.

of class gender and and race will always. be present I think uh the Republicans. have decided I think I'm going to try. and pick off class coalitions to get us. to our Finish Line but when you look at. that how do you then you know create a. system where democracy seems more. resilient and responsive and agile and. not as vable able to that well you are.

identifying the reality that really. since 1986 which was a very deliberate. project of the Reagan Administration we. had begun to lose the guardrails of our. democracy and that was a deliberate. project that we could talk about you. know the suppression of the vote the the. attempt to create a strong president I. mean that's been the project all along. hasn't it I mean if you look at Jim Crow. laws if you look at the southern. strategy I mean suppression of the votes. of the people that will erode the status. quo power that's been a project all. along well remember we have the uh 1965.

Voting Rights Act which addressed that. and of course since then and and this is. a big project of John Roberts throughout. his career was to to to chip back away. at that the idea that this was a bad. idea to open the vote to so many people. people of color people of color by the. way because you know so there are a lot. of things in our democracy that have not. worked for a long time that is accurate. and you know again one of the things. that I always point to is the capping of. the House of represent resentatives in. 1929 because of the recognition after.

the census of 1920 that there were more. people living in cities than there were. in the country and there was an attempt. really to to make sure that rural. populations would continue to be over. represented if in fact we had continued. to expand representation at the rate. that it had been until then we would. have more than a thousand people in the. House of Representatives so and and what. that did is it meant that your instead. of your representative being somebody. you saw on the street um the. representative be come somebody that you. never hear from most people don't even.

know who their representatives are in. some regards that makes some. Representatives similar to a senator in. a less populist State I mean they're. almost representing fewer people. sometimes in the in the Senate than they. are in the house that's right those are. Statewide offices yeah that's right but. structurally and this is something I has. urge people to do is to play the other. side of the table okay structurally what. interest do the Republicans have right. now in fixing that they have said they. have demonstrated they don't want. democracy why would they fix the.

institutions that have enabled them to. amass the power they have I would have. said that in. 2016 when you know Hillary Clinton won. the popular vote probably by three or. four million I think they said maybe. more I don't recall exactly but the. Electoral College which I think is what. you're sort of referring to as you know. affirmative action for rural areas in. the early form of of the government that. allowed those less populous states to. remain powerful and viable. but if you look at this.

election I can't even say this is uh an. autocratic so he won the popular vote. projected to win the popular vote this. was a democratic victory for them that's. right that's right and but like I say. why would why would you want to fix that. if it's working for you and again I. think that what you're going to see is. the same thing that we saw happen in. Hungary the taking over of media. especially so that you cannot have the. kinds of Independent Media that would. urge people to vote against things that.

are actually not working for them but. one of the things that I think is. interesting about this moment and about. of reconceiving the concept of. governance because um I think you got to. think about America as different than a. democracy Now is the States you know one. of the things that really jumps out to. me is if you you know we have a federal. system it's a federal system that during. in different periods different peoples. have wanted to get rid of I've always. liked it because it enabled there to be. a check on whichever group wasn't.

behaving terribly well right and one of. the things about focusing on the states. right now we know a lot of them are. Jerry mandard and so on but if you think. about State. governance there's a place where people. can make a difference where people feel. more represented and one of the things. that then jumps out to me is if you look. at New England for example which is one. of the models that Abraham Lincoln used. when he thought about how the American. West would look. those States tend to have democratic.

system small d as well as Big D and they. have very prosperous economies. Massachusetts has Health Care um you. know people in those states are feeling. pretty good about democracy and about. their states and one of the things that. jumps out to me again as a historical. theorist as well as somebody who deals. with the actual this happened this. happened is that those systems are based. in economies of small producers if you. will not so much now but in the past and.

I think the the structures of our state. economies are going to matter in terms. of protecting democracies and by that I. mean that if you look at economies there. are states that were based in the kind. of small producer economies like New. England was versus States like the South. and the American West that were always. built on the idea of very high Capital. using extractive methods to get. resources out of the out of the land.

either cotton or mining or oil or water. or aggro business those economies always. depend on a few people with a lot of. money and then a whole bunch of people. who are poor and doing the work for. those Rich guys right and that I'm not. sure is combatible in terms of. governance without addressing the. reality that you know if people have. more of a foothold in their own. communities are then more likely to. support the kinds of legislation that.

supports the Community Education Health. Care right you know and that may be the. future of democracy if not uh if not a. national democracy dear Lord Heather so. now you can see the vertigo on the left. which is the prescription for this. moment is State's rights and you you. kind of have this vertigo of wait I. don't I don't know where my footing is. but I think your uh your point out of. checks and balances exist within the.

system that aren't just what we would. traditionally think of the founders. checks and balances the legislative will. check the judicial will check the. executive will all that that there are. checks within the structure of the. entire Republic that also work which is. local governments and state governments. being checks on federalism and other. things which is a really I think. hopeful and optimistic. in which may sound inous at this moment.

but uh that felt that that. feels like like we have some remedies. there are places to go and in some ways. it's what the right did in the Tea Party. Movement which was I am the federal. government has abandoned us I don't want. anything to do with that but you know. what hasn't our school board and and I'm. go we're going to take that over and is. that now A playbook that you're talking. about I am I I do think that there's a. difference in that the government that.

the Tea Party Movement disliked was not. going to come marching into the states. to try and force adherence to their. policies but but I do want to point out. that the the New Deal government that. has been at the heart of the reactionary. movement since it went into place in the. 1930s began in the states quite. literally what happens is that in the. late 19th century the Democratic party. recognizes that it's got to toss. overboard the white Confederate lead. leaders because they're basically you. know they they're losing constantly and.

so they turn in the 1880s to Urban. governments the urban governments that. are directly answering the needs of. their people and those would be the. machine governments especially Tam Hall. in New York City oh wow boss tweet in. the like that's correct although he's. gone by then it's somebody else by then. and the first gu the the the the guy. that that they're really turning to he's. corrupt he has to flee to Ireland and. the guy who replaces him is not corrupt. so he's got to find out some way to get. votes of the people and he actually does. something really interesting he goes to.

the settlement house workers those are. the women who have without votes who. have begun to try and take the hard. edges off of industrial capitalism by. living in areas that are inhabited. primarily by immigrants and by working. to reinforce social webs and to you know. to help you know new mothers and all. that sort of thing and he goes to them. because they're the ones who are part of. the voting Community he says you know. what do people need and because those. women had been keeping statistics and. had been talking to workers and had been. in the factories they could say hey they.

really need kindergartens they really. need protection of their food because. you can paint candy with lead paint they. really need and so on Wow and that group. of people takes over New York City and. is very effective at taking over New. York City and that is literally the. group of people from whom we get FDR you. know Franklin Del Roosevelt and Francis. Perkins who's his Secretary of Labor. she's there for 12 years still the. longest standing Secretary of Labor in.

American history right they literally. take that system to the National level. and say we're going to do all this on a. national level we're going to help. workers but what that means is that they. begin to bring those benefits to people. in the American South and in the. American West where white people are. accustomed to ruling essentially over. black Americans and brown Americans and. women you know they also are looking for. for equal rights for women and there has. always been push back about against that. and it appears that on Tuesday that push.

back won but it's such a you know again. your your knowledge of the breath of. History putting these things into. context tells me something really. interesting a the customer is always. right I mean that imagine you know this. this idea for government is what if you. ask your customers what they need. because it does appear right now if you. look at what people pay into that system. they're not getting back in any way the. things that they believe and they feel. are vital to their well-being they're.

just not the government is not. responding in that direct way but as. these women go in there and they develop. an idea of what people want and then. develop a way to get it to them that. creates this new deal and you can almost. say that that's what creates this. reactionary program against it so let's. say the New Deal is a reaction to. economic urgency and let's say the Civil. Rights Act is a reaction to moral. urgency each one of those has. bred a reactionary movement to Tamp down.

those gains right but in this moment I. don't know what it's a reaction to I. don't know it it should be a reaction to. supply side economics and. neoliberalism but it doesn't appear that. way so why why has that Dynamic failed. well I think that you said it earlier I. think now we have a propaganda ecosystem. that has people angry about things that.

are not real I mean this is the thing. that is so hard to push back against and. that that people like you and me have. tried to do by recreating a. reality-based community is that people. are well that's a quote you know from. the George W Bush Administration yes I I. recall I recall and we um by the way a. contemptuous quote the the the the the. feeling they had about the reality-based. community was they were contemptuous of. it that's right because they need to. have this is the somebody in the George.

W Bush Administration said to journalist. Ron susin that they no longer they the. Republican lawmakers no longer had to. live in the reality based Community. because they could create their own. reality right and and I don't know how. you politically combat people making. decisions based in fiction because. fiction can always be changed and and. the only thing that I. see is that if that fiction becomes so.

destructive that people start to look. for real solutions in that case they're. going to need to look at actual reality. and you see that I think in Western. North Carolina after the hurricane that. just devastated the region you know the. the Trump people were in there lying. about what was happening and and they. were certainly creating a lot of chaos. over that but people who were literally. trying to stay alive turn to their. neighbors and trusted neighbors for real.

information about where water was. available for example but that's a. pretty Grim way of looking at things I. think in terms of the nation but I think. even what makes this maybe a more. fraught moment is that the fiction is. grounded in a in a reality which is what. we talked about earlier if the. government is no longer responsive in. that way to its customers then that. opens the door to fictions as to why and.

I think what has been done here is an. exploitation of a real. situation framed as resource guarding. framed as you would be getting this if. it weren't for illegal undocumented. people where all the money that goes to. trans people or all the money so they've. taken I think a reality for people and. maybe found a way to exploit that to.

their end and doesn't that make that a. more difficult fight than just battling. fantasy well yes and and the irony is of. course that they created it and this has. been part of the Republican Playbook. since the 1980s you know that the. Welfare Queen right the reason that. you're hurting is not because of. policies that we're putting in place. that are going to help the very wealthy. we know $50 trillion moved from the. bottom 90% to the top 1% between 1981. and 2021 wow and yet people would say oh.

you know the the problem is these these. welfare ladies taking our money right. but the real thing that you have. identified is that this is absolutely. the authoritarian Playbook and we know. how it plays out we have seen it play. out in Rwanda we have seen it play out. in in Nazi Germany the continuing use of. the government to benefit a very small. group of people right and to get people. to stay behind that program by saying. the real problem is those people right.

and what the pattern that we have seen. in those other places is of course to go. after those people and you know the. Nazis said it doesn't matter who those. people are because you're really not. trying to fix a problem you're trying to. keep your voting block or your support. block behind you so the you know we we. expect that that will continue and also. that one of the key things to get rid of. is political. because so long as there are people. saying hey wait a minute here you know.

there's only you know two of these. people entire state right the counter. narrative so you get rid of the counter. narrative and then you continue to um to. go after those people and then you're. going to have to expand it because there. aren't going to be enough of those. people to go after and you're going to. have to continue that and so that is I. think really problematic in terms of. where we are now and one of the things. that we have to stand firm on and hope. for is that this Administration will be.

so incompetent and flighty that it will. not manage to create the kind of. Juggernaut that the Nazis did who were. who were you know deliberately creating. a fascist right State and they of course. have said they want to create a fascist. state but they've always they've always. pointed to Hungary I mean I'm I'm taking. two things and then we'll get to some. listener questions that I think they. really want to ask you as well I think. uh people are feeling you know that. vertigo right now but you bring up two. things one hopeful one not I think the.

not hopeful is the. intentionality of this plan that you've. detailed as a way of capturing that. power and being able to exercise it in a. more autocratic way eting the pets to. the Delight of the people right they're. eating the pets they're eating the pets. they're eating the thing but the second. part that you bring up that is hopeful. is this idea of the power of individuals. motivated to create uh change and.

positive growth and the resilience of. those things because as we look at that. that Arc of History it does churn. through errors and it's it's cold. comfort for those living through that. bad moment but it's the difference. between weather and climate and I think. you're also pointing to ways that we. individuals As Americans as Citizens can.

help change the climate we are not. helpless and that there is efficacy we. have been here you know the everyone. keeps saying we've never been here. before but the American South from about. 1874 to 1965 was the world that we are. looking at nationally now and black. Americans and their white allies in the. South and poor whites who were also. treated poorly by those State. administrations in in the south. uh they lived they made communities they.

kept alive the idea of being treated. equally before the law and having a say. in the government they resisted in. domestic ways through communities. through ART through literature through. efficacies of their own in terms of. determining how they live their lives we. have been here and we will emerge in. some fashion from it right um but for. people like me you know you watch what. is really the end of a certain kind of. American democracy and and it's very sad.

you know the the many of us still. believe in those dreams right I think. even some of the people who voted for. Trump still believe in those dreams I. think so too I I really do I don't I. don't think that you know we can talk in. apocalyptic terms about you know Jim. Crow or Nazi Germany but I I I never. want to jump to you know what is the the. the darkest scenario of that that type. of. malevolence you know we talk about the. banality of evil I guess I'm trying to.

believe that that is not what what we're. living through so I don't know I'm. grasping I guess uh but I do want to get. to that we had listener questions and I. I could talk to you forever because I. just think you're uh fascinating and. smart and just have thought all this. stuff through so well well back at you. well thank you uh so the the first. person wanted to ask how similarly or. differently do you feel uh with this. election than 2016 which is the you know.

the analog to it that's a great question. yeah um so I feel that that very. differently in two ways the first is. that in 2016 our guard rails were still. sufficient to get a kind of a leash on. what it was possible for a trump. Administration to do and those guard. rails are now gone so I'm much more. concerned in in that sense but I'm also. much more hopeful as in 2016 we did not. have yet or at least I did not have yet.

any real systems of of community and. resistance and those are now millions of. people strong and they're not going to. go anywhere right so that you know I I. don't know I I don't know quite what. that looks like but I will say I was. distraught in 2016 I mean distraught as. in I don't know what happens next you. know maybe I'm older and wiser now I. feel like we we know what happens next. we we know how to deal with it and and. we it's not what we hoped for but we're.

not alone right well that's and we're. not and that's I think that's a. wonderful thing to to frame it as uh the. second one and I think this one is you. know could have been asked at any point. in the last 50 years how do we stop the. Democrats from learning all the wrong. lessons from this. loss that now that's a bumper sticker I. want to see on somebody's car how do we. stop the Democrats from learning all the.

wrong lessons from this loss yeah and. and yesterday was like I was like would. you all just stop it you know you. know hey do you want to answer some of. these I I want to hear from you I'm. excited I I will I'll jump in but I I'm. I'm interested to hear what you think. listen um the thing to remember about. the Republicans and the Democrats both. is that they're made up of people and. that people have agency. so you know I I actually thought and.

still think that the Coalition that. Harrison walls put together was an. extraordinarily strong Centrist. Coalition I really do I thought that. then I I it is the kind of Coalition. that we saw as I say in the Progressive. Era I really thought we were moving. toward a new Progressive Era because of. the strength of that Coalition and um. and that's just just keep on speaking up. about it how do we stop stop the. Democrats from doing anything we don't. they're going to do what they do but.

speak up and be part of it so I look at. the commercials to see or I look at the. the ways in which I think the Democrats. have a generally. popular Outlook and you see that with. President uh uh elect Trump going I'm. the father of ibf or and I would never. do anything you see all the ways that. they back off of their more Draconian. policies the flip side of that is when. they say don't talk about that we have. to get elected first the things they.

don't want you to know they're going to. do but what it says to me is there are. an awful lot of democratic policies that. are broadly popular wildly popular. wildly popular but if you stick with. that but I think the thing that we do. forget sometimes goes back to that. original sin that we talked about a. government that is not responsive to its. customers whether that be through. callousness. or well-intentioned overregulation.

and that's the thing that Democrats I. think have to examine is are we creating. roadblocks that are not. necessary to government being responsive. to its people Harris covered that you. know she even talked about getting rid. of you know the stuff especially in. Hawaii for making hard to ask I will say. that you just brought up something. really interesting though and that's. that I mean I don't have a lot of hopes. for the Trump Administration I hope it I. hope it's great if it's great I will say.

it's great um but I will point out that. Theodore Roosevelt who is associated in. the United States with having launched. the Progressive Era right picked up most. of his policies from the from Democrat. Grover Cleveland nobody's ever heard of. Grover Cleveland right nobody well they. have now because he's the only other guy. that that went out and then got back in. and now Trump has um which technically. is not actually the case he won the. popular vote in 1888 as well so he was. actually three times but lost in the in. the Electoral boat but because there.

were some shenanigans that went on in. the in the New York delegations but um. but it is. possible not probable but it is possible. that the Republicans look at the. policies that the Democrats have tried. to put in place or that have put in. place that are so popular and say we. want that we want to do that so that we. continue to stay in power you know we. want to make sure that women can get. reproductive healthare we want to make. sure that there's Common Sense gun. safety legislation we want all that.

stuff because now that we've got a lock. on the popular vote we want to build our. Coalition and that's certainly what what. Roosevelt did right so that is that is. certainly a possibility Fant that that. that's helpful uh okay here's here's. another one how do you want the media to. cover Trump over the next four years uh. have have we learned anything in the way. that we cover it what's been your. frustration with the way that the. media's uh covered Trump worth pointing. out that there is now a new media that. stands apart from the Legacy Media and I.

think that's important because we have a. lot of fabulous people and we have. fabulous people in the Legacy Media as. well right I think what I have found. most frustrating about the coverage by. Legacy Media is that there is no larger. context of why you're supposed to care. about anything right I mean I don't know. about you I have to look up what the G7. and the G20 are every freaking time. right and that idea that somehow it's. all just play. byplay basketball is uh I think has. contributed to people's lack of.

understanding of what is really at stake. right so you know I would love to see. people talk you know the way the way the. people like me do about here's why this. particular action really matters yes but. you you just don't see that um because. there's so much entertainment and right. I I think also they don't have that. knowledge base to a large extent because. their knowledge based is in sort of the. to day now that's kind of they don't. look at that larger context but the.

other thing uh that I think you bring up. with that that's really interesting is I. think the lesson they're going to think. they need to learn is we're too partisan. and we must take on now we have to be. umpires which is exactly what the. opposition would like journalism to be I. think they have to understand that. journalism is activism it it just is in. the way that it was with Upton and. Claire and ID to be Wells like these are. you have to have a vision for what you.

think the world of of clarity and you. have to provide context and my hope for. the media is that the lesson they take. of it is less moral high dudgeon do you. do you think that was anti-semitic is. that racist what he said and more. litigating the boundaries and parameters. of our shared reality we don't live in. two realities we don't live in three. real we live in reality and journalism. can help Define those boundaries for us.

and and and that's the lesson that I. hope uh that they take I hope they do as. well I do want to point out that when. you and I just were talking there about. the media I think we were talking. largely about the White House media the. people who cover the president in the. executive BR that's that's a fair point. because the the journalists who cover. State and who cover defense because I. read them all every day yeah they're. great I mean they are great literally. you're talking the defense print is. different than I'm I'm sort of referring. to television and social but you're.

Heather that's an absolutely great point. the defense people just crack me up. because they're like we noticed in the. last Appropriations bill you moved 14. quars from and you know of aluminum from. this Factory to this Factory is that a. reflection to the fact that there was an. election in the house of Lithuania. you're like how do you know all this. stuff but again you know course get. almost no coverage. the for for for you know not even just. ordinary people reading the news even I.

suspect I'm one of the very few people. who reads the defense press briefings. every day the defense press briefings. now start with dear Heather I don't know. why they do that but they theyum they're. really they're so smart they're so smart. and they're that's an excellent point. and they're always all of them are. designed to hold power to account yes. and I think what we see in the in the. coverage of other branches of the. government is more a sense of how many. clicks can I get rather than how can I.

hold the the the people the the people's. representatives to account to account. that's exactly right and here's our our. final one and I thank you so much for. your for your patience and your time uh. today Heather it's been really wonderful. to talk to you uh and this is one that. man I think everybody is asking each. other how do you find the strength how. do you keep trying to hold people. accountable or tell this next generation. that human decency matters that that all. those things are still actionable and.

that you have real hope for the future. well first of all um the only way out is. through right that's a that's a truism. what choice do we have but to keep on. going forward that's just going to. happen but beyond that you know humans. are human and we do I think try to do. what's right most of us and we do try to. build communities and we take care of. the people we love and that's not going. to change we're still the same country. that we were on Monday right we just.

have changed our form of government the. reality is that we have a lot of really. big things to take on that are going to. be hampered by this election I'm very. concerned about climate change right and. um and I think all we can do is to keep. on trying to do the right thing you know. one of the thing I read a book on the. Wounded Knee Massacre right and it's it. was horrible I had to take a long break. in the middle of it if anybody ever read. it there's all sorts of sort of lyrical. passages about flowers and the the stuff.

that grows in the west because I felt. like I should be working on the book but. I just couldn't deal with the massacre. any longer right because I knew those. people I read their Diaries I watched. everything they did I can tell you where. they were every day and I knew they were. marching toward a disaster and there was. nothing I could do about it because of. course it happened in the last century. right and somebody said to me once are. there any heroes in the me Massacre and. I thought that's a really good question. because it's such a dark moment and it's.

a dark moment not only from the soldiers. who shot and from the indigenous people. who did stupid stuff and the politicians. who set the whole thing up and I came to. think that there were two Heroes one was. uh sitting bolt who was a Lakota and the. other was George crook who was one of. the army officers who died long before. the massacre which is funny for me to. have those two people be the heroes mhm. and and what I came to believe was that. a hero is somebody as both of they did.

who keeps trying to do the right thing. even when you know the walls are closing. in. right we can all do that. right we can all do that we can all do. the right thing even sometimes when you. feel like the walls are closing in uh. Professor Heather Cox Richardson thank. you so much uh what a great note to. finish on author of democracy Awakening. notes on the state of America uh Heather. it's just so lovely to talk to you today.

and uh I always appreciate and I. appreciate you so it's always a. [Music]. pleasure wow all right so that is our. show I want to thank uh Heather Cox. Richardson for for joining us uh I'm G. to say. this very rarely does an anecdote about. Wounded Knee leave me with a feeling of. of hopefulness but I think uh in some. respects that that's what she was able.

to accomplish uh by suggesting that. there even in in dire times there are. heroes that emerge who continue to as. the walls are closing in do the right. things and. maybe you know those are the instances. where the walls fully close in but by. doing the right. thing you know maybe you freeze that. advance or even push it back and uh and. that's what I think we all need to keep. cognizant of uh by the way thank you to.

the listeners for your questions I hope. that uh her answers uh were were helpful. to everybody and we really do appreciate. you interacting with the show and and. giving us those those questions and. queries uh you can always get us at uh. Twitter at weekly show. pod uh we're on IG which I think is. Instagram and threads which I think is. useless probably and Tik Tock uh that's. at weekly Show. podcast uh maybe we need to start doing.

the tick the Tik Tock dances you know. that bring the kids in uh like And. subscribe to the YouTube channel weekly. show uh with John Stewart as always I. want to thank lead producer Lauren. Walker producer Britney mimic video. editor and engineer Sam Reed audio. editor and engineer Nicole Boyce. researcher and Associate producer jilan. Spear and our executive producers Chris. McShan and Katie gray that is it for the. weekly show. see you next.

week the weekly show with John Stewart. is a Comedy Central Podcast it's. produced by Paramount audio and bus Boy. Productions. [Music].