Jon Stewart on the Divide Between Dems and the Working Class with Sarah Smarsh | The Weekly Show

JON STEWART: My favorite thing that they ever said was, yeah, we are going to be pivoting. from the coal industry. And you're all going to be losing your jobs. But we are going to send you to computer science school. So it's really a wash. SARAH SMARSH: Come on. [JAZZ MUSIC]. JON STEWART: Hello, everybody. Welcome, once again, to another episode of The Weekly Show. My name is Jon Stewart. And we are-- how many days in are we to the new era of the--.

America? Do I have to say it now always with a question mark? We are now-- oh, god, it's only been a fucking week. That cannot be possible. I hesitate to say it because it's been a week where. the faint taste of a shit taco has been in my mouth. for a week. And don't think that that's--. by the way, it probably should taste like that. You should feel this discomfort. I just wish the discomfort wasn't always present.

I feel like I have tried this week very much to just go. about my normal Knicks box score obsessing. or those types of things. But there is this faint discomfort. that is always in the background. of my mind of this moment slipping. away from us and the country. I'm hoping that that dull hum slightly goes away because I. find it very distracting that I'm constantly checking Twitter.

to be like, oh my god, he nominated Brian. Kilmeade to run commerce? What are we doing here, people? But I don't want to also lose the discomfort. because the discomfort is--. it is an incentive. It is incentive to think about how to reverse--.

how to change this, how to improve upon outcomes. that I would prefer. If it didn't taste like a shit-- it should taste bad. It shouldn't be something that leaves. our collective souls immediately, that we. wear so lightly like a--. perhaps a windbreaker. I didn't really know where I was going with the metaphor. So I'm going to go with a light jacket because it's fall. and because I lack imagination. And so I'm unable to come up with metaphors. other than literally what I was wearing this morning.

That's how sad I am. I'm an old man who no longer has. the imagination to get the taste of a shit taco out. of his mouth. Action is the antidote to anxiety. And action is creating forward momentum, whether it be through discussion or action, about what it is you would rather see in this country. And to that end, I think we have. a great guest for that today.

I'm so excited to speak with her. I've heard her on a numerous amount of different podcasts. I'm just-- I'm going to get to that now. [JAZZ MUSIC]. So we're going to bring on our guest. Her name is Sarah Smarsh. She's a journalist. She's the author of Bone of the Bone--. Essays on America by a Daughter of the Working Class. And I would imagine, Sarah-- first of all, thank you so much for joining us. I would imagine in this election in particular, as Democrats struggle to understand the alien creature.

that is the White working-class voter that you are. seen as the Rosetta Stone--. do you find right now that people are looking. to you for answers in this confusing world. of the rural voter? SARAH SMARSH: First, thanks for having me, Jon. And yes, I do find--. I'm getting a lot of calls right now. That's been true, to some extent, for some time through the current political era. But this really feels like a moment when maybe my message.

about class and the way that we need to center it and discuss. it as an identity unto itself is really critical right now. So yeah, I'm happy to be here to talk about it. JON STEWART: Well, I'm delighted that you. could join us. I have my theories about the election. It's interesting you mentioned just now class. as an identity, which is--. I always view the world as we have--. everything is sort of at some level.

intersecting between class, race, gender, and religion. You sort of have these-- the four horsemen. of the shitopolypse-- yeah--. that's-- that creates all those things. But at its core, my kind of feeling about the election. is there is a broad swath across gender, race, class, religion that believe that government. is no longer particularly responsive to the needs.

of the people. And if your message is this election. is about saving this system, but even. amongst these wide variety of groups, people feel that the system is not particularly--. has any efficacy, does that cut across all. of those different identities? And how does it impact the class identity. maybe even the most strongly?

SARAH SMARSH: Well, I think we've been in a "burn it down". moment for some time, several election cycles. 2020 might have been somewhat of an anomaly. Biden, of course, won that general. And here we are again with Trump. I will say, going back to 2016, I. felt it profoundly on the ground, even in places like rural Kansas, that a Democratic socialist from Vermont. was sure getting a lot of traction. and actually built an incredible coalition--.

almost got the nomination more than once, in fact. So that sort of anger, rage that's just. been kind of on broil at ground level across, as you say, all sorts of identity markers I do believe. has a lot to do with class and the way that, as you say, it intersects with race, it intersects with gender. But it is an experience that every one of us. has and contains. And if you're on the losing end of that power structure,

that continuum-- and far more people are on the losing. end than not, of course--. then to your point, indeed, saying we're now defending. these structures that have had you. and your family hurting for some generations. is maybe a losing messaging strategy. JON STEWART: So let's talk about that. That's a great place to start because there's. this idea that we're defending these structures. So what in these structures isn't delivering?

What part of these structures-- what is--. let's look at the chasm between need and servicing those needs. What isn't being delivered? SARAH SMARSH: I think a way to look at this in very specific. terms would be the gulf between the message. that the economy is actually great, dummy--. JON STEWART: [LAUGHING]. Are you saying that doesn't work? SARAH SMARSH: You must not have read the latest.

report about the GDP. Most Americans don't own stocks. Sure, you can say inflation has slowed down. and there have been economic gains in all sorts of ways. But for the average underpaid American, it's not even just about prices. It's also about core spending. That's a measure that economists love to trot out. You might be buying all your groceries. and your consumer goods with a credit card.

I didn't hear a lot of talk about debt. Most of the working-class and working poor Americans. I know hold profoundly disturbing amounts of debt, be it credit card, medical. I will say the Biden administration. did talk about medical debt a little bit. Maybe they could have led with that. I think that might have helped. But there's--. JON STEWART: Rather than GDP? You really don't think GDP was--. SARAH SMARSH: Right. Yeah. So yeah, people are hurting.

And if you're looking at them-- in the face and saying, actually, you're not, in--. whether that's a move to kind of defend. your own administration that, of course, the Democratic candidate was part of--. and that's a-- very difficult to thread. that needle, the task she was handed to propose how we'll. change, but also still be riding. with the last administration. But--. JON STEWART: You were about to say ridin' with Biden. I think you were about to go for a rhyme there, Sarah.

SARAH SMARSH: [LAUGHING]. But most people are hurting. And here's the thing, because I know that a lot of liberals. and Democrats and progressives alike might be saying, but you're saying all that and the Democrats. have the better policies. They address all of those needs better, even if imperfectly. In the end, ain't the Republicans worse? And while I happen to agree with that, here's the trick. The Republicans, meanwhile, are the ones validating the pain.

And politics is an emotional business. before it's a rational one. And that's why they win. JON STEWART: That is incredibly interesting to me. It's just-- because I'll agree with you. I have sort of a disconnect-- and actually, not even necessarily, oh, the Democrats are better, because I do think Democrats have bought into, I guess, what they would call neoliberalism, to a large extent. And you as you were talking, I was thinking,

this is a much larger conversation. about since Reagan, probably, we've. kind of moved into this investment economy. that investment and capital money means more than work. Labor is devalued. And investment is king. And administrations, Republican and Democratic--. you mentioned Bernie Sanders. I think he was one of the few that kind of bucked that trend. But it does feel as though since Reagan, we.

have devalued labor. And both parties, policy or otherwise, seem to agree that this idea of capital and investment. being-- having primacy is a winning one economically. Would that ring true to you? SARAH SMARSH: It does. And just to go back to neoliberalism and the way. that it crosses those party lines,

NAFTA I think kind of originated. with the first Bush administration, but was, of course, signed into law and celebrated as a major victory. for the Clinton administration. And the person who held that pen, by the way, I think. has-- that there's been a bitter taste in a lot. of workers' mouths around specifically. the Democratic Party, even though both. were complicit in NAFTA. But these moves toward globalization, which, depending on who you are, means very different things.

and, yeah, the devaluing of the American worker--. without a real plan other than, like, how about this coding program for people in Appalachia--. that would be a cool way to--. JON STEWART: That was my favorite. My favorite thing that they ever said was, yeah, we are going to be pivoting. from the coal industry. And you're all going to be losing your jobs. But we are going to send you to computer science school.

So it's really a wash. SARAH SMARSH: Come on. So there were big money and corporate interests involved. in all of those shifts. But ultimately, part of that perfect storm of really pissing. off the working class was that meanwhile, you've. got the party who used to be on their side, at least. seemingly, who now just flat-out. apparently don't get it. JON STEWART: But you talk about it as identity. So I want to tease that out a little bit because to my mind, even with both parties kind of embracing maybe a larger.

structure of neoliberalism and globalization and capital being. king and all those different things, the Democrats really do--. Republican states have right-to-work states. If you're upset about globalization, if you're upset about factories moving to Mexico to avoid. having to pay workers a decent wage. or doing any of those things, South Carolina. is kind of Mexico to maybe some of the Northeastern states.

that have more worker protections. Why doesn't that resonate for workers? SARAH SMARSH: Well, I think there was a very successful. kind of messaging campaign some decades ago to not only. get those laws through, the so-called right-to-work laws. that were basically union busting, but also. to kind of poison the water to really shift. the culture around a worker's relationship. to the concept of a union. As a child in the '80s who a lot of my family worked.

in the airplane factories in Wichita that used. to be a major center of that industry--. still is, to some extent--. and also, in wheat fields and the agricultural industry, that would not be a sector that's traditionally. so tied up in unions. But I have folks in the trades in my family and communities. who didn't want anything to do with unions. And think it might have been that not just. the laws changed, but somehow, cleverly, that the culture also did.

Those are imperfect systems themselves, of course. Labor and unions have historically also. been rife with their own problems. and been power structures of sorts. JON STEWART: Right. Yeah. They have their own corruption as well. SARAH SMARSH: Sure. Yes. And that's fair. And nobody knows that better than a worker. But they remain, to my mind, the greatest, perhaps, tool. that laborers have. And it has been stripped away from people in a lot of states,

as you say. JON STEWART: That actually gets to, I think, an interesting point, which is whenever we discuss economics. with people and they always say, we've got to strengthen these unions and we've got to get. in there-- and isn't that, in some ways, maybe. an antiquated way of looking--. why is it incumbent always upon workers. to just, in some respects, get better lobbyists? If we're going to be sticking with this idea. that investment is a more powerful tool than labor, how do we not plug labor into that investment current?

Sometimes, they'll be offered stock portfolio or sharing. or things like that. But that's not normal. And so how do we get it to the point. where you don't need a union to come in there. and go-- because generally, unions are still like, hey, stop making them work 60 hours. And you have to pay them overtime. And you really do need to give them health insurance. It's all those basics. Why don't they participate in the gravy?

SARAH SMARSH: I think this might go back to culture, actually, and the way that that relates. to class as an identity. So here's the thing. Even if you got in on that gravy, that gravy itself is unto a class and a mode of thinking. and a relationship to economy that actually threatens. your way of life and your place in your community. and your skills. And so what I'm getting at here is the folks who I know who.

do manual labor or would identify as members. of the working class, even in the service industry and all. sorts of jobs--. they're very proud of their work. They aren't actually trying to get out of work. Some of them like to work. Their identity has to do with that steel or their identity. has to do with that wheat field or with that hammer. or even with that relationship they have with customers. waiting tables, and so on.

So it's like trying to say to a bunch of folks that are looking. at everything in a macro way, here on the ground, we're talking about the dignity of our work. We're also defending our rights. So we're trying to get more money. And we're trying to get you to back off--. working us into the ground. But that's not the same thing as saying, we actually don't like our gig and feel very proud. of the skills that we have. And by god, don't you--. we could talk about AI all you want.

But for the time being, we need people who have those skills. And they know it. While I don't think it's a bad idea, what you're talking. about, I think it's just two different realities in terms. of a relationship to capital, how you build it, how you--. and how you value yourself. If a worker hands over just the inherent value of her ability. to fix a sink and now she's swimming with the real sharks, trying to get ahead, swimming in the gravy, if you will,

that's maybe a really precarious way. to be because they've already got. you beat in every other way. At least, they don't know how to fix their sink. JON STEWART: I was almost thinking about it. as it's adding another revenue stream for that work. more than redefining that work. It's like almost trying to come up with the-- in the ways. that they're very creative about padding. their bottom line. And you have this with a lot of corporations. They'll pay a certain wage that's not a living wage.

And so you're forcing people who are still having, as you say, that work that they're proud of, that dignity that they're proud of. But it's not bringing them enough that they don't still. have to reach out to some government programs. to help them even to just get by. I mean, I don't know if people realize how much people who. work still rely on programs from the government.

to benefit that. SARAH SMARSH: Oh, yeah. A scandalous percentage of, let's say, Walmart employees. are on food stamps. The scandal, by the way, to be clear, is that Walmart is underpaying its workers, not that anyone needs to seek out assistance. It was my meaning. JON STEWART: Exactly. And that's the point. And it's so interesting. You talked about it as, this is an identity. And what goes along with that identity? It's sort of-- because you're saying.

cuts it across different lines of class and gender. and religion and those different things. In that identity, is it just about. the government not recognizing their struggle. or is it about a government also not being able to ease it? Which do you think has--. is bigger? SARAH SMARSH: Well, I think that we can maybe. answer the question by just pinpointing or teasing.

out who is that government. Who's there? It's mostly pretty well-off folks, affluent folks. A lot of them went to the same Ivy League schools. There has been modest, but somewhat heartening and hopeful. diversification of Congress and the ranks of government. along gender and racial lines. If you look at class, though, it very rare.

is the lawmaker who has a background. with direct experience of poverty or the working class. or throw in rural America. And you're down to people you can count on one hand. JON STEWART: Right. But then you get a guy like Jon Tester in Montana. And they just voted him out. I mean, that's a dude who literally. lost his-- part of his hand in a threshing accident. SARAH SMARSH: In the--. yeah. I think it was a meat grinder. JON STEWART: Meat grinder. SARAH SMARSH: But yeah. And god bless him.

He had a good run. So what I'm getting at here is I'm not so sure that. it's-- that the structures themselves are. unresponsive by definition. But rather, the folks who are driving. who are behind the wheel have enormous class blind spots, and often racial blind spots and gender blind spots as well. But across the board, there is a-- just a gross inability.

to truly understand the day-to-day lives. of the average American. And that's true in both parties, of course. I talked about the little trick that the Republicans. pull off meanwhile earlier. But if the Democrats also have that problem. and then they're telling you you're. wrong, that the economy sucks--. recipe for disaster. JON STEWART: Right. And you look at--. I mean, JD Vance is supposed to be. the avatar for the politician who comes from Appalachia,

comes from a white working-class background. But I think you're right. Then you tie it into. But there's a dude who--. his story is I worked my ass off and went to Yale. and got out of that place. And maybe the thing that you're saying is, what if we recognized a pride of place, that not everybody. necessarily wants to leave has great pride in not. just the work that they do, but the culture that. surrounds them? They don't want a way out.

They want a way to live where they. live how they live with dignity and some economic security. SARAH SMARSH: Yes, 100%. So when I moved to New York in my 20s, I-- a question I often. got was, how did you get out? And I think the idea was it was a compliment. And I actually love the place I'm from. I live there again now in rural Kansas happily. But I had no choice in terms of my career path and my goals.

and my aspirations professionally and academically. but to leave. I'm kind of a homecomer, if you will, who returned with the-- on the Odyssean journey. But--. JON STEWART: [LAUGHING]. That's how I ended up back in Jersey--. same thing. SARAH SMARSH: [LAUGHING]. Yeah, you get it. So-- but yes, home and place. And I believe those things often kind of relate to class. But the capitalist and industrialized and globalized.

and urbanized way of looking at reality. often leaves place out of the equation of place. Boy, does that-- is that still a tie that binds. I find when I talk to people about my work, all colors and ethnicities and political stripes, even--. where I'm from, you just say, where are you from? And what-- and so your daddy was down at-- oh, you worked at that grain elevator. And there's different versions of that all. over this beautiful country, of course.

And if all of the policy and the aspiration that. you're talking about-- some we haven't mentioned. yet is how the Democrats--. throughout that campaign, Jon, I. don't think I heard them say the word "working class". once, the term. Maybe I missed it, their economic plan. JON STEWART: Right. SARAH SMARSH: But the reason I point that out is because it's. always about the middle class. We're talking about, how do we get you in the middle class? We know you want to be in the middle class. We're jerking off the middle class. with every overture we make with our messaging,

exalting the notion that--. and meanwhile, we're defining the demarcation. line as a college degree. And so the notion is--. JON STEWART: Oh, that's interesting. SARAH SMARSH: --we know you want to make it. and you want to get into the middle class. I know people that are perfectly. happy with their modest lives in a rural landscape. And they're proud to be doing the work. of tending and protecting a piece of land. And maybe they're extremely well self-educated, read. a bunch of books. But if the current pathways are like,

and now you've got to leave your home. and go take this coding class and now enter this completely. different world that you don't even want, I mean, another thing--. of course, the-- what's the saying about New York? If you can make it there, you can make it anywhere. And what I always say is, well, there. are people who could make it there, but they just don't want to. And that's like being completely left out. of the conversation about what sorts. of aspirations or goals someone would have for a good.

and fulfilling life. JON STEWART: That, Sarah, I think is--. I think you've hit on--. I don't want to call it the mother lode of the--. but what you have just said has struck me in a way. that maybe I hadn't think before. But you're right. As I'm looking at the breakdowns of the electorate, people with a college degree is now the biggest. separator between there. But inherent in that is a certain prejudice about what.

that means, the idea being a college degree is. your passport and you cannot go anywhere. without the college degree. Oh, and by the way, the ante for a college degree is now. at minimum $75,000 all the way up to $500,000 for four years. or some crazy fucking piece of money that's going. to put you in debt. And you're going to have to climb out.

of that for the whole thing without this idea. that there is that sense of place and lifestyle and culture. that should be economically and socially viable for people. and that they shouldn't have to choose that one path of debt. and whatever that passport would cost them. I think that that is a really important point that I have. not heard spoken very often.

SARAH SMARSH: Yeah. I think it's an important one. And I want to point out, by the way, that that choice that someone might make or that kind. of rearrangement of traditional capitalist value sets. in deciding where to hang their hat and how to live. their lives-- that's-- it's important for all of us, including urban and formally educated. folks that people are--. something I would like to point out--. having grown up in a rural space and living in one.

again now, yes, we are a majority urban population now. But 98% of the land of the United States is rural space. And as someone who sees firsthand. what's going on out there in terms of corporations. and who's buying that land and what they're doing to it. and extracting to it, it's good for all of us. if we've got a little bit more of a sprinkle going on, somebody reasonable and sane who has that pride of place.

that you mentioned who wants to protect that place. That actually affects all of us. If you eat, if you put gas in your car, if you care about the earth and the land that we share, people who are trying to keep the-- a kind of agrarian. lifestyle that is-- of days gone. by for a lot of families, but is. still alive and well in some--. it's the fabric of our country. And I'm glad that some people are prioritizing.

being in those places. JON STEWART: Right. And by the way, I'm not--. I don't want to give the idea that I'm fetishizing that. or that idea of, like, yep, those are. the good, hardworking people. Working in a city, living in a city, getting through there, surviving there-- that's fucking hard, too. It is-- I think the whole idea of it. is not viewing things as in such a hierarchy, but in viewing them-- now, the counter. to that might be the rural areas of this country. do hold a larger portion of the political power.

just based on how the Constitution. has apportioned how we vote. Does that part of it--. look, we talk about the rural parts. are much more decidedly red. And they do hold within our Senate, certainly, a much larger portion of the political power. in terms of the amount of people they represent. So before we go too far down the rabbit hole of nobody. sees these folks, does that part resonate in rural areas?

Did they-- how do they view that? And I have a followup to that. But I'm just curious. SARAH SMARSH: Yeah. Well, what's wild is for all the electoral college. privileging those rural states, as you point out, it's a--. most folks I know in those parts of the country. don't feel represented by their governments, either. Part of that is due to just not really resonating.

with either side in this two-party system. and, again, the largely rich people that run both. of those parties. Also, if you look at when you strip an issue away. from those labels, R and D, and have a ballot measure. for progressive ideas, like legal weed. or reproductive rights, defending those, Medicaid. expansion, all down the list, they often. pass in so-called red states. So there's something going on there. about that identity has now become where-- the red state.

And that's our majority politics here. And sometimes, that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. in terms of now a heightened sense of desire. to belong to your place. But that's not necessarily the same thing. as reflecting precisely what you. believe and want in the world. And that dissonance between political behavior. and what people actually believe--. that's for sociologists and psychologists to parse. But I know it firsthand. I've seen it.

Another thing about that kind of wobbly way. that we get representation and how the rural folks have more--. that red and blue map and that winner-take-all politics. that it reflects is so toxic, I think, to our understanding of ourselves, whether you're rural or urban or somewhere in between. In most-- you've probably seen before when someone takes. the 50 states and, instead, gives them a gradient of purple.

rather than just showing who actually won. the state in the way that we run our elections, but rather to actually reflect the sizable political. minorities that exist in every state. And they're there in red states, too, even a place like my Kansas. I think in most general elections, there's about 40%. of people-- vote for the Democratic. presidential candidate. And two out of five people ain't nothing. But--. JON STEWART: Sure. SARAH SMARSH: So here's where, again,

that the electoral college and the way. we do our elections is damaging even in those spaces that are. disproportionately represented, whether in the Senate and--. or elsewhere-- is that if you are one of those. two out of five people in that place, my god, is that demoralizing. And it is so hard to keep hanging. And then meanwhile, if you're being sort of lumped in as. though there's this stereotype or homogenization of your place.

and the cultural idea of it--. and you're like a kid holding a Black Lives Matter. sign in small-town Kansas. And I've seen it. That's very brave work. There might be braver work than what's going down in Brooklyn--. you know what I mean-- because it's like, you're against the grain--. JON STEWART: No question. SARAH SMARSH: --against the grain of the culture. And then meanwhile, you keep seeing this red and blue map. And then meanwhile, you're-- where is your vote going? My god, does it even matter? And so-- and that's what I was alluding. to about a self-fulfilling prophecy,

because then those people might long to leave. And I'm sure that it works vice versa, too, with folks in so-called blue states. choosing to hang their hats. JON STEWART: Right. Yeah. There's a sorting. SARAH SMARSH: It's a soft sorting. JON STEWART: Yeah. No, it makes perfect sense. But what is so blowing my mind about this is-- and this is. the thing that you're talking about, that dissonance between how you feel. and maybe what the policy might reflect. or what things are in a more practical way. But it is-- so if I were to look at this more broadly,

this idea of in the red states, some of this is a rejection. of what they would call identity politics--. we're so tired of pandering to identity--. Black, gay, Jewish. We don't want to pander. We don't want woke policies. On the flip side of that is, see our identity. Value our identity. It is a sort of Bizarro world DEI identity politics. SARAH SMARSH: Yes. JON STEWART: It's that there is an identity here.

that isn't being addressed--. SARAH SMARSH: Yes. JON STEWART: --and that in some ways, what's effective about what you're talking about about. the feeling is it seems to me that the most effective message. that the Republicans have is, you work hard and you pay money. into a system that doesn't deliver for you. because it's too busy giving money. to undocumented trans athletes who are there to destroy your--.

they've painted this picture of a system. that you work to pay into, but undeserving people. get all the benefit of it, which is, in some ways, just a different kind of identity politics. No? SARAH SMARSH: Well, I think it's. a manipulation of the way in which we've been. handling identity politics. And I don't use that term negatively. It's important that we're talking about racial inequality.

and gender inequality and the way. that those things affect your probable outcomes. But if you're doing that, if your DEI statement. isn't also talking about socioeconomic class, if your definition of diversity is not also. acknowledging wealth or the--. I'm a first-generation college student. So I often find myself in-- or college graduate.

I often find myself in professional spaces. where I'm the only person who has. a background remotely like mine, regardless of color and gender. And yet when I was kind of crossing that bridge. from one class experience or reality. to another, if you will--. and I contain both today. But that bridge was on that college campus. As that first-generation student, there were rightly race and gender. and other aspects of identity-- were being addressed. But there was something very specific about what.

I was that made my--. that made a really hard you go of it for me. that was not being discussed. And if, we as a culture and a country, are not acknowledging that class is also an identity, then in that void, in that vacuum where deep pain, a valid sense of not being seen arises,

there then comes in swooping, comes in riding on a demon. horse Rush Limbaugh, there comes in riding. the-- at-- the message is about the immigrants. and the reason and the Brown people and the-- and so it's--. there is actually, in my view, a real--. now, I want to be careful here because we want. to talk about a grievance. You can simultaneously have white privilege. and economic disadvantage.

My family would be an example. I grew up on a fifth-generation wheat farm. And we struggled to get by. And we were below the poverty line, as we say. I qualified for a Pell Grant. And it's also true that we owed a little bit of land. That land was stolen from Indigenous peoples. People of color probably never could. have owned it without being menaced in times gone by. And so in most even poor white families, you can find traces of white privilege.

But if you're only acknowledging the privilege. of whiteness and you're not, meanwhile, discussing the fact. that within the 40 million people in this country. living in poverty, the largest group of them. are actually white--. just because we're still a majority white nation, you're more likely to be poor as a person of color. due to structural racism. But if you're only talking about the privilege. and you're not acknowledging the disadvantage. within the white working class--. JON STEWART: And by the way, also, Black working class,

Latino working--. we're-- so when you talk about all those who identify, there may be more common ground amongst working class of all. races, genders, religions, and things. than there is amongst upper class of any color, right? SARAH SMARSH: Absolutely. Yes. JON STEWART: This is--. I'm telling you, man, this is the hit. because it's that resentment that treats our game--. and you said it earlier about a zero-sum election. It's also-- capitalism can't be a zero-sum game where.

only investment is the thing. It's about recognizing struggle as identity. and that being like-- in a capitalist system, there are victims. Anytime you're in a system that is searching for the cheapest. labor and the cheapest raw materials. to make goods and services, you will. have people who suffer at the bottom of that, recognizing that--. What's so interesting about this is it's. actually a way for Democrats to expand on the way.

that they view identities and groups to include, not to exclude, but to include even more people. and to promote ways of not just making. those identities feel seen, but of alleviating struggle. It's got to be about alleviating struggle. Too many fucking people in this country struggle.

It's too hard. That has to be a part of it. SARAH SMARSH: Yeah. This might sound crazy. But affirmative action, such that it still exists--. rewrite that law to include, let's say, household wealth. See what happens. JON STEWART: Right. SARAH SMARSH: And--. JON STEWART: Which, by the way, is not. to suggest that race or gender or any of those other things. are fixed. It's just to suggest that you have to include.

everybody in those ideas. SARAH SMARSH: Yeah. Yeah. This is one of the reasons the conversation. falls apart often--. is that the notion is that these ideas are. in opposition to one another. But if we actually believe in an intersectional mode. and march toward justice, then we can't make class secondary. And as you were alluding to, class--. right now, we're isolating it among discussing.

the White working class--. JON STEWART: Just white working-- right. SARAH SMARSH: But-- because that's. the political moment and that demographic. that has vexed so many. But class, as you were alluding to-- it's. an experience for people, regardless. of color, regardless of origin, regardless of ethnicity. And often, indeed, as you say, it's a tie that binds. And it might have to do with place. or day-to-day experiences or the job. that you hold side by side. But any group that's really interested in change. and justice is leaving a lot on the table.

if they're not acknowledging that. And it-- not only does it not threaten our progress. toward racial and gender justice, it is of a piece with both of these. JON STEWART: No question because it's also--. if you give people a more secure foundation--. gender, race, whatever-- it doesn't matter what identity. you are. The more that we are able to have people not feel like they. are in quicksand, no matter their identity,

the healthier we will be. It's-- we have created, especially over the last 50. years, a top-heavy society that is. listing rather than looking at that foundational situation. But I like this very much. The only thing I didn't like, Sarah, and I'm going to be perfectly frank with you--. we've become friends now. SARAH SMARSH: Lay it on me. JON STEWART: Forcing me to think about Rush. Limbaugh riding a horse--. I did not care for that image. SARAH SMARSH: [LAUGHING]. JON STEWART: I don't--.

now I'm going to have to have that in my head. My guess is I have a very crazy, shitty dream coming up. tonight that I will have trouble. making sense of that will include, hopefully clothed--. SARAH SMARSH: I'm so sorry. JON STEWART: --Rush Limbaugh on a horse. Sarah, I can't thank you enough. I think you've helped me clarify. certain things about this conversation. that is really important. And it's the last thing that I'll leave you. with-- is we have to stop resenting.

people from pushing for their identities to be. a part of this better life. I don't-- there is no reason to resent white working class. as they try and get their way into the-- we have to be--. inclusive means inclusive of as many people as you can. fit onto that elevated track. And I think framing it that way and thinking about it that way.

has helped me differentiate because I was looking. at it clearly from that side of it that you were talking about, which was that dissonance. How do they not understand that those policies. aren't better for--. and-- but I think I wasn't clarifying that. emotionally or identity-wise. And that's-- I think that's such an important aspect of it.

SARAH SMARSH: Can I add just one layer to what you just. said, which is that while I'm with you about, like, let's. welcome that identity and its rightful points about where. they've been unfairly on the losing end, that's not. the same thing as giving a pass to xenophobia. or racism or sexism, misogyny, and so on in the politics. But it's instead going to the foundation, the ground level, of that person's experience and saying, I see it,

I validate it, and now let's build from there, because it's in the lack of validation. or being seen that those nastier. permutations of the politics are enabled and manipulated. JON STEWART: That's my point-- is if you. give people a more solid foundation, and maybe this is Pollyanna--. but my view is those politics of resentment. that it's immigrants or trans people or--.

that they're the reason why you're not getting it--. that that will ease and that we will actually. be easing two things at once, that when you bring people up. to feel seen, heard, but also solidify the ground that they. stand on, make them feel that the working life that they've. chose has a future, you will take all the air. out of that resentment and xenophobia.

and all those other ills. Maybe that's Pollyanna. But--. SARAH SMARSH: Well, and you might even start with speaking. to the millions of white working-class people who. aren't Trumpers-- believe it or not, they're out there, as my family are among them--. and make inroads in those communities. and allow that to spread out. I'm not a political strategist. But I know you got to go there and you got to talk. to that group of people. And they've got some real concerns.

JON STEWART: Right. Well, Sarah, I really appreciate you being here. We've been talking with Sarah Smarsh. She's a journalist. She's the author of Bone of the Bone--. Essays on America by a Daughter of the Working Class. And it's much appreciated, Sarah. Thanks so much for joining us. SARAH SMARSH: Thank you, Jon. [JAZZ MUSIC]. JON STEWART: That was-- boy, that just--. that started cooking when--. I felt like I was I was in her class, she was the professor,

and I'd been sitting there for weeks like a dumb fuck, just sitting there the whole time going, I don't get any of this. And then there was one class where I just woke up and went, it's an identity! GILLIAN SPEAR: [LAUGHING]. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Epiphany. GILLIAN SPEAR: You did the reading. JON STEWART: Gillian, that really sums it up. I should have done the reading. GILLIAN SPEAR: We've all been told that. JON STEWART: And I hadn't. Had you all-- was that something that seemed. obvious to you guys, that-- when it clicked for me,

or is it something that you also. thought, oh, that's different? GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah. It definitely differs from what I've. been reading in the mainstream press about what happened. There was no reducing this down to a group of people. were not even addressed. And why wouldn't class be what defines you when. it defines your entire life? It's your entire approach. JON STEWART: Your entire sense of security. But it's-- what's so interesting about us--. and Lauren, to your point, there's so many things.

that people are writing about. Oh, you focus too much on identity. And really, what the point is-- that, actually, you just don't have enough identities. that you haven't considered these other avenues. in the same way with the same fervor. that you defend other groupings that you. look at as marginalized. Disenfranchisement and marginalization. happens across a much broader swath than perhaps--.

for instance, why aren't short people talked about more? LAUREN WALKER: I was just going to say that. And their grievances-- we need to be hearing their grievances. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: That feels personal. JON STEWART: See, Brittany can walk away from that, not being a short person. LAUREN WALKER: Sorry, guys. [LAUGHTER]. JON STEWART: It's OK. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: #Blessed. JON STEWART: Hashtag something. I was trying to-- the only other thing.

that I thought about is that dissonance. And Gillian, maybe you were-- and when she was talking about. that, the dissonance between policies. that actually address that because that is the one thing--. even with their identity, I am surprised that they align. themselves, even identity-wise, with the Republican. Party because I don't see--. I guess I don't see the policies that would make that. GILLIAN SPEAR: Well, her election diagnosis. when she said that the Democrats may have all. of these solutions, but the Republicans are the ones that.

are validating their pain--. that really rang true to me. So when people's daily lives are marked by debt, unaffordable housing, unstable health care, the message. of protecting all of these institutions that have failed. you really falls flat. And the promise to disrupt that system. resonates with people across all identity lines, these traditional identities who've lost. faith in those institutions. So it doesn't really matter if that force is.

one of authoritarianism, as long as it's. offering to do something. JON STEWART: That's a very good point. I felt like what I--. GILLIAN SPEAR: And it would happen faster. through authoritarianism. Yeah. JON STEWART: No question. By the way, Lauren, I think that's a very. undervalued point. LAUREN WALKER: Well, I remember it in the aftermath, I think, of 2016, where they were. doing surveys of young people. And there was this weird shift towards the acceptance. of authoritarianism. And the underlying principle was, at least. something would get done.

JON STEWART: I think that's dead-on right. I think if your message is "we must defend democracy". and everybody's like, I don't know, democracy seems to be doing a pretty shit job these days, I could see how they would think, well, as long as it's an authoritarian I trust, then we'll all be OK. The problem is it doesn't always work out that way. And you may find yourself on the shit end of that stick. And that's why those protections are so important. But what I really loved about that experience with Sarah. on the show is I felt like I had kind of a unifying theory. of what I thought it was.

And I thought she "yes anded" it. and improved it and brought it to, I think, a much stronger place. So I really appreciated that. It was fantastic. Brittany, I've really appreciated people's feedback. most recently. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Do you want to hear. some of their questions? JON STEWART: Oh, sure. Yeah. Do they have-- is there stuff that--. yeah. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Does the left. need a Joe Rogan Experience? JON STEWART: What does that mean? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Does the left need. a Joe Rogan type of podcast--. or also, how do they get their message out?

There was that whole conversation the left needs--. who's the left's Joe Rogan? JON STEWART: I mean, I think that's oversimplifying. Joe Rogan. I mean, as somebody who does listen to Joe Rogan, I don't think--. I don't know what I would necessarily classify him as. He has some ideas that I think are. wildly progressive, other ideas that are probably--. I would less agree with. But I think what's interesting about Joe is--. talks to anybody. He does it with a kind of--. a genuine curiosity, whether you--.

I hate this thing we've gotten into, a "how dare you" platform. or do the-- he's platformed. He has a voice. We have a system that is capitalistic. that voices that resonate tend to be amplified. Bernie went on Joe Rogan, which I think was. exactly the right thing to do. But it's all these people that have never. really, I think, listened to him going, how do we get one of those?

And you're like, I don't even--. I'm not even sure you know what that is. LAUREN WALKER: Yeah. You don't need your own. You just need to go on. JON STEWART: And also, I think they always--. that question is always framed in the negative, like that's a shit thing and we need. to counter it with a good thing of equivalent value. I think that's a mistake as well. I don't even-- I wouldn't even know how to classify the things. that he does and says because the other thing to remember. is in the world that we live in right now, right or left, the only thing I object.

to about this idea of political correctness. is that it only comes from the left. In a world of constant comment, everything is attackable. And everything will be attacked, whether it's from the left, from the right, things you. agree with, don't agree with. We are now an incessant shit-talking society. So my only complaint about it is that people somehow. blame the left as like we're the ones. who complain about shit. I don't know, man. Look in my comment section. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah, they have their own purity tests.

JON STEWART: Thank you, Gillian. That's all. GILLIAN SPEAR: We've brought you. here today to cancel you, Jon. JON STEWART: I do feel like this is one of those-- it's. like an intervention gone wrong where you're like, you need to stop drinking. And I'm like, but whiskey's so good! Thank you, guys, as always, very interesting. Brittany, how can people keep getting in touch with us? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. Twitter-- we're weeklyshowpod. Instagram, Threads, and TikTok, we are weeklyshowpodcast. And you can like and subscribe our YouTube channel, The Weekly.

Show with Jon Stewart. JON STEWART: Yeah, do that. It makes us feel nice. Lead producer Lauren Walker, producer Brittany Mehmedovic, video editor and engineer Sam Reid, audio editor and engineer. Nicole Boyce, researcher and associate producer. Gillian Spear. And our executive producer is Chris McShane and Caity Gray. So join us next week, when, once again, we. will have a delightful conversation with somebody way. smarter than me. And I always appreciate that. Thanks a lot. See you next time. [JAZZ MUSIC]. The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart.

is a Comedy Central podcast that's produced by Paramount. Audio and Busboy Productions.