Jon Stewart & Nick Gillespie on Trump, Freedom & Bob Dylan | The Weekly Show

I think of Donald Trump like Bob Dylan. and by that I mean that he hold on a. minute are we recording this yeah we. certainly blowing in the wind but. [Music]. what ladies and gentlemen welcome to. another episode of the weekly Show. podcast my name is John Stewart I come. to you today. Broken But Not. Bow for I had an OE.

on my finger I'm going to show it now. you're probably I I wrapped it up uh I. heard it on the show doing my classic uh. brand of physical slapstick comedy that. never works and always getss me hurt uh. it's the second time on The Daily Show. that I have broken a drinking vessel the. first one was glass the second was was. ceramic for those who thought I should. have had a breakaway mug yeah now you. tell me yes son.

uh ceramic is one of my least favorite. materials to have embedded in my skin uh. but I I bled out it really for a. comedian is humiliating and I say that. because the greats the Buster Keaton the. the Charlie Chaplain Buster Keaton would. would stand you know in front of a house. with a little window cut out would fall. on his head that Harold Lloyd would hang. off of a clock.

with no uh net uh I I nearly. died being vociferous with a coffee mug. it's it does not speak well of the. legends of my business uh but uh I I I I. don't imagine they ever had to have. their sets childproofed can I tell you. what's not smart to do when you have uh. a cut uh hold it below your heart for 20. minutes because it really does it it. just makes your whole arm a straw and it.

just all just flows out and it makes it. look way worse then then when I picked. it back up to look at it even I for a. second was like what the was I. shot it's. fine but so so it goes as Kurt vonet. would say so it goes uh we have a ton to. get to today we're taping on Wednesday. so God knows if we'll even still be.

uh in the in the alliances that we were. in the day before uh but I'm excited to. talk to today you know there's so much. that's going on and we talk about. Democrats and liberals and uh. Republicans and conservatives and Doge. and. Maga uh I wanted to get kind of the. libertarian view and I know that's not. monolithic in any way but I thought. there's no better person to get that. from than our guest today so let's get. to that right now. [Music].

ladies and gentlemen we are very pleased. in this moment to have with us Nick. Gillespie editor at large of uh reason. magazine host of the reason interview. with Nick Gillespie podcast Nick the OG. uh in my mind of kind of grounded. libertarian thought is is in my mind I. think of Nick Gillespie and I'm very. pleased uh that you could be here and. join us today oh well thank you John. it's it's a real treat and it's always. uh nice to be called grounded because. normally I.

I'm talked about as something less than. grounded so thank you is that really. true because you know I it's so. interesting to me libertarian is you. know you think of political movements. sometimes and you have a tendency to. group them as a monolith and uh the. libertarian movement is anything but a. monolith it it has you know there's this. sort of the side of it that's getting. maybe the most attention in this day and. age is maybe the kind of more Edge Lord. side of it that kind of.

young male but when I call you the OG. you know I feel like you were always. grounding everything and fredman and. Hayek and you know all all the things. that you. imagine uh. libertarianism Foundation is is built. upon would that be correct yeah I think. so and you know part of it is that I. grew up as a journalist or I you know I. started working as a journalist then I. went to grad school for literary studies. and then you know I had to come back it. was still in my blood so how that the.

big payoff in being an English Professor. didn't. materialize so you didn't get your start. in dank memes that was not how you got. your start with all this well I actually. did get my start working at teen. magazines of Music magazines I worked. for a place called teen machine at some. point teen machine even in my teen Mac. days I was always interested in in. starting with like some facts you know. it's not like a card you lay down and. then every the conversation sus but you.

know uh starting i' I've been a reason. since uh early uh the 1993 the magazine. started in 1968 I did a cover story. about how everybody was talking about. and this was a big Hillary Clinton thing. you know that children were at risk like. they had never been before like you know. worse than the Little Rascals those. those kids had a good compared to kids. growing up in the [ __ ] like late. 1990s and all I started with was like a. list of you know how much better. children are doing let's start with one.

no polio okay let's move on from there. I'm 61 years old I was born in. 1963 the average lead levels in kids. growing up in the 60s would have. triggered massive medical interventions. in the late '90s because lead leaded. gasoline lead paint uh lead pencils you. know lead cereal I'm sure uh you know I. believe it was called it was it was. delicious stayed crunchy the one cereal. that stayed crunchy in the bowl was Leos.

and they filled you up for the whole day. yeah uh no but but so I mean this just. gets back to the point of like I think. it's always important to when we start. talking about stuff especially today. because you know people are nuts um is. like can we agree on some common facts. right people are nuts would be a good. title for for the book but Nick so you. you just gave me in many ways the the. perfect segue kind of into our. conversation because I think I want to. talk to you about Doge and how you're. feeling about that Trump Administration.

all those things but first I think I've. always been libertarian curious if that. would be the right uh every comedian is. right I think you would probably have to. to because you want to go where the. jokes are and you want to be able to. think a certain way and then express it. and that's right yeah so like every. every but here's what I always come up. against and you just brought it up years. ago there was a lot of lead and kid. cereal and through government regulation. the lead was removed so how how do you.

square that kind of essential tension. yeah so and this is where I guess I am. grounded because I'm not an anarchist or. the Narco capitalist which a lot of. people say well you know no government. is ever necessary or kind of the same. thing that anything the government does. is by force and theft and is. illegitimate and they also suck at. everything they do why would we have. them do anything uh Etc you you know. that's that's one strain of kind of. libertarian thinking I'm much more like. Milton Freedman again you know a proud.

uh new jerseyan fredman where was he. from he's from uh I think he was born in. Newark and grew up in raway you know. Ra's two most famous residents are. Milton fredman and Ruben Hurricane car I. was gonna say if you don't name somebody. from the prison you're just not working. hard. enough but um you know uh what what I'm. interested in and and this is definitely. uh over the course of my career um you. know I become much more of what I call a. directional libertarian which is that.

I'm not I'm not that interested in like. okay let's build a perfect philosophical. Foundation that you know makes perfect. mathematical and philosophical sense. it's like are we heading in the. direction of more individual Freedom. where people can live how they want to. uh where business owners can do what. they want to where you know where things. are looser and people are able to make. more choices that matter in their lives. for me the question isn't uh you know. whether or not the government is funding. something it's are we going in the right. direction or not and so to bring that.

back to this question of regulation of. things like lead you know the single. biggest thing to help air quality in the. United States arguably was the uh. environmental pollution um you know kind. of standards that were passed in the. late 60s and early 70s under the Clean. Air Act by Nixon who would have who. would be considered at this point I. think like a a gay leftist for Native. like he wouldn't you know what I mean. it's we we've so shifted in terms of the. the Paradigm but go ahe yeah and by.

Banning uh you know and and it took many. years DDT and all those other things. well no because I have a Libertarian I. will pick a knit with you about DDT in. just a second but um but with with Leed. getting rid of leaded gasoline you know. and and the the atmosphere is a common. so it's not like you can't say oh you. know the lead you're admitting uh you. know I'm going to sue you in court for. that because it it would take forever. and it's never going to work or anything. but you know when there is a true common. uh you know like air can be that that.

you think the market won't address like. there's too many externalities and so if. the market won't address it the free. market that's a place where in your mind. you're you're able to come in okay yeah. that makes sense and you know by saying. okay we're taking leaded gasoline I mean. you know most most people in America now. I think probably were not you know grew. up with leaded gasoline versus unleaded. you know and all of that kind of [ __ ]. and it's like by taking Leed gasoline. out of the air you know. that had a major positive effect on you.

know on the environment at listen Nick. you and I grew up the same time in. Jersey I'm sure you did what I did which. is ride your bicycle behind mosquito. trucks like that we didn't even we. didn't even get excited about the ice. cream man coming it was when the. mosquito guy with the giant he had a. pickup truck with a giant [ __ ] fire. hose of who knows what and we would ride. our bikes behind it be like this smells. interesting just let it wash over us. yeah it's like just breathe in yeah.

breathe in you know because you're. huffing anyway that's right so but this. is where you can also do things even. when you're saying like Okay we're going. to build a consensus and say we want to. get leaded gasoline out of the air. because it has these negative effects. you can do it smarter and Dumber and. like the you know the way the government. did it and this was uh uh Nixon's EPA. said um okay we're going to mandate. catalytic converters which is a. particular type of technology that takes. a lot of the lead out of emissions I. mean as well as changing how we.

formulate gasoline um but um you know. it's like the government probably. shouldn't be dictating technology or it. could set a goal and say you have to. reduce pollution by so much but then. we're going to let you and we're going. to let the market innovate to figure out. what's the best way to do it are you for. government then incentivizing those. kinds of changes like is would that be. in or is that considered an intervention. that sulles a a free market yeah well it. I mean it gets complicated pretty.

quickly and and yeah you know obviously. right yeah but it's but it's where it. might be that you know we want you to. reduce your amount of pollution however. we Define it that's one thing but then. say Oh and by the way we're going to. give you a massive tax sub taxpayer. subsidy and then give taxpayers credits. to buy this one kind of Technology you. know it could be a solar panel you know. I I don't think build your own wind. farms have taken off yet but I'm sure. they're they coming you know like you.

probably you want to make it as simple. as possible to say like okay we've come. up with like here are the basic rules. and then what free markets are really. good at is figuring out innovative ways. to do stuff for lower costs with better. outcomes um and that's not always. perfect and it not it's not always uh. you know sometimes uh it needs a kick in. the pants or sometimes you just need a. top- down regulation or restriction on. something um but I think things. generally work better you know when you. let markets operate more freely to kind.

of figure out what people want to. because a lot of times we don't know. what we want right and then how to get. there more quickly with DDT if I may. just because this all right pick pick. the DDT nit and then I'll go back to the. sort of more macro View and then we'll. get into sort of what's happening today. yeah DDT is a really interesting example. for you know I mean the the the uh kind. of planetary ban almost complete. planetary band on DDT comes from uh. Rachel Carson in silent FR and she was.

making a series of cases and you know. the modern Environ environmentalist. movement in a lot of way comes out of. that book and the the movement that she. helped inspire you know and it turns out. that DDT is really good at killing uh. mosquitoes the uh yeah you know and it. its Banning was not necessarily a good. thing because everything has costs and. benefits and it turns out in certain. places people are using lower levels of. DDT in order to really powerfully. eradicate mosquitoes we we are.

constantly held captive by these old. things like you know DDT was killing. people you know as if like everything. good didn't come out of an era where. boys were riding spider bikes jumping. ramps into Vats of DDT yeah um but you. know it it turns out that it gets much. more complicated and we you know it's. it's worth going back and thinking about. this stuff and you you mentioned polio. I'm sure we'll talk about Robert Kennedy. at a certain point you know Robert. Kennedy who's old enough to really. remember polio is like oh you know the.

polio vaccines have you know killed more. people than they saved and it's like you. know I want to see the the uh you know. the kind of BL stream of iron lungs you. know going up in front of Health and. Human Services but it's really difficult. right now Nick to to make those choices. and balances especially now because you. bring up the point about DDT and you're. right I mean it was an incredibly. effective killer of mosquitoes which. were causing malaria and all kinds of. disease but then it was found to have.

mutagenic properties and cancer. properties and well at certain levels. right because yeah and then this is you. know one of the things I I gave a talk. last fall um uh you know which was about. what I call the agony of abundance like. the the biggest problem I think we have. today in a in in a kind of macro sense. is we forget how to learn from the past. and there was a poll last year yeah and. it's like almost 60% of people last year. said that life was better in America in.

1974 and I was like okay kid yeah let's. go look at 1974 and like the pinto was. the bestselling car in 1974 which was. invented to make the gremlin feel better. about itself as you know well I was. partial to the Pacer because I just. remember them having an ad where a guy. delivered a six- foot sub in the back of. the P but then it was all glass so it. would have by the time it got there it. would have fly said maggots on it I had.

a gremlin I was the idiot who worked his. whole [ __ ] high school career to buy. an $800 off Brown Gremlin just to find. out it's front heavy and making a left. me you fishtailed into the neighbor's. yard so uh it was a nightmare but the. pinto Not only was you know explosive. literally but it was a bad car and like. we have done so much better to make. better cars you know and but yet people. are constantly being borne back into the. past thinking that it was a simple uh.

you know a a a simple decision a simple. time when when cars were cars and. segregation was allowed but let's talk. about that Central tension because I. think this brings up here's where I. probably have the hardest. time embracing kind of the the. foundational philosophy which would be. kind of the way that Jeff Bezos is going. with the Washington Post Now personal. Liberty and free markets yeah and this. is the part that's hardest for me.

because in my formulation right right. one of the greatest. limiters of personal Liberties. oftentimes turns out to be free markets. okay how how and what what's an example. of that all right so the way I would. look at it is is this the greatest. inhibitor of personal Liberty in my mind. is not. necessarily uh overzealous regulation or. something along those lines it's it's.

poverty it's struggle it's the inability. to get enough of the fruits of your. labor to allow yourself P the personal. freedom that you need you know. survival and and being on a tenuous. Razor's Edge yeah is for my calculation. the greatest inhibitor yeah of personal. Liberty free markets this the operating. system that we're running capitalism.

whether it's free or not is by its. nature exploitative of of. Labor so their goal is to get you to. work for them for the least amount of. money they can they can pay you because. they need to drive the biggest profits. right sure so because of that it's hard. for me to reconcile those those two. Dynamics feel at odds I totally hear. where you're coming from and I uh you. know libertarianism historically you.

know it's like a post World War II. phenomenon really a post 1968 phenomenon. really as an organized movement really. why why 1968 do you think well it was. partly um the people who founded the. modern libertarian party uh people who. were working in places like reason they. felt left out of politics uh you know. Republicans and Democrats like you know. when you're especially if you're a young. man in a draft year and your choice is. uh Richard Nixon or hbert Humphrey or. George Wallace you're like okay where's.

the exit right you know it's not it's. not good right would you draw it further. back to like objectivism or would you. say that yeah yeah huge huge factor and. and people like Ein Rand I never. personally went through an EIN Rand. phase um but you know she was massive. you didn't smoke that much pot see I I. went through it oh wow you you know I. the objectivist I knew I I you know they. were always like oh you should know they. didn't even get drunk smoking weed so I. was like okay I'm out that was the only.

time I ever found it. interesting because for me you know the. 1950 I mean postwar America is the first. time when America became you know kind. of a wealthy country and also like it. was you know that's when individual. liberty flourished like suddenly you had. even even among minorities who had it. really shitty in the 50s like if you. were black you know I mean Brown versus. Board of Education only took place in 54. schools didn't get fully desegregated. until uh Nixon in the early '70s I mean.

you know it was bad but at every level. people were doing so much better and. there was so much more stuff to buy so. many more choices to make on every level. it makes sense that libertarianism. started to become more interesting and. attractive I was more into Jack kowak. and the Beats who were exploring. individual liberty the Mary pranksters. and yeah you know so these these are all. like kind of you know parts of a of a. broad uh uh movement um but in any case. um I was going to say that I you know.

I'm a Libertarian because I grew up ler. middle class not because it's often. characterized as you know this is a. philosophy for uh upper middle class. people Highly Educated people men mostly. and some women who are like Ein Rand or. something like you know use cigarette. holders or something and my whole point. or monal yeah yeah that's right um you. know my whole point uh I I agree with. you in the questions you're asking I. think capitalism broadly speaking as an.

operating system generates more. possibilities for people I agree and. this is why I'm not an anarchist uh you. know when you talk about poor people not. even poor people I mean like working. class or even regular middle class which. is how I grew up yeah even that suffers. through that kind of more yeah I well I. guess I you know part of part of the. problem with political discourse in. America and I think it's always been. this way is that you know 90% of us say.

we're middle class and so you get middle. class people and this happened under you. know it happened under George W bush it. happened under Trump certainly under. Biden where yeah you know suddenly. households who are making. $400,000 are being subsidized by the. government and you hear this you know. I'm talking to you from Hell's Kitchen. in New York and you'll hear people in. New York say with a straight face like. oh you know making 300 Grand in New York. just isn't really a lot it's just not. happening right now yeah you know it's. like you know we're pinched and it's. like move or you know whatever but what.

I was going to say is that the. libertarian argument for helping people. who need it and assistance in the market. goes something like this or part of it. is that you know if you're a kid and. your parents for whatever reason aren't. you know they're not well off you don't. have a lot of options giving kids access. to education and to Health Care will. allow them to grow so that they can. fully participate in society which is a. good thing then we can say okay well. that's why we have you know Medicaid and. why we have public schools and then it.

might be the case that we say well you. know what let's maybe give the parents'. money so that they can pick the school. their kid goes to like the government. doesn't have to run the schools Etc but. there should be some Aid and assistance. in the interest of helping people fully. participate in society um I think I. think I can make a case that is. consistent with libertarian beliefs and. a belief in mostly free markets and Le. fair and certainly personal Liberty. you know that the state can exist to.

help people in terms of safety nets and. in C in terms of helping to guarantee or. at least multiply opportunities but. having said that you know the reason why. cars became cheaper and better and U you. know isn't because the government said. hey you know what we're going to give. you a you know a subsidized loan in. order to to buy that Gremlin you know it. actually cars in America got better uh. and cheaper when you think about it in. terms of the amount of work that people. have to do to buy them when we opened up.

to competition and throughout the you. know through the mid 70s uh car markets. in America were basically you know it. was very hard to get Imports um and as a. result we got you know the cars that you. and I you know grew up uh driving where. you know if if you know the one good. thing is you know I think about this all. the time and again this is a question of. progress that we should not celebrate. uncritically but take note of um I can. remember people with have parties on the. street if their car made it to 100,000.

mil and the odometer went to zero the. rollover baby you had to get there were. like two or three in your lifetime and. now you don't even change the spark. plugs on a new car until 100,000 miles. you know and it is true that business. owners want to you know they want you to. work for as little as they have to pay. you but then if you're a good worker. you're going to be competing uh you know. other companies are going to be like you. know what this guy is actually pretty. good at what he's doing I'm going to woo.

him away with a better wage yeah I would. I think that's probably where you and I. would would disagree a little bit yeah. no I well I also think it's it's kind of. uh you know you can push it too far I. was looking in anticipation for this I. was looking at um the percentage of. households and whatnot that are on SNAP. benefits I think almost everybody in. America regardless of political. persuasion or ideology or anything would. say you know what like we don't want. people to starve yeah I I would even. question that at this point there.

there's a republican Congressman the. other day who was like kids should have. to work for their lunch at school and. you're like okay that's interesting yeah. I I agree and by the way SNAP benefits. are controversial yeah I mean they. really are within the government and the. other side I would say to it is when. governments do provide that right they. attach all kinds of conditions to it. that they don't attach to subsidies that. are for corporations or for mortgages. and things like that right I mean you.

get billions for you know things and yet. food stamps you're not allowed to buy. hot food yeah no it drives me nuts and. this is again from a Libertarian point. of view I think you can say um okay. we're going to have certain social. welfare uh you know safety net programs. those are important but then when you. start getting to like well okay you know. people who are making you know three. times the poverty line or something or. still getting a benefit maybe that's not. a great use of taxpayer money because. that money is coming from somewhere else.

uh but also uh you know and you find. this in all sorts of giveaways under. covid and whatnot where people just you. know okay well you know why why do. seniors get uh prescription drug. benefits you know regardless of how much. money they make or why are they getting. them anyway if if they don't actually. need them so you're more of a you would. say means testing is the most important. aspect of the the safety net it's two. things one is I would say it would be.

better to give people like you know we. know people are poor because they're. below the poverty line like give them. cash you know just give them cash and. say okay here we trust you not to buy uh. you know not simply to buy uh Leo cereal. for your kid which by the way they don't. I mean almost entirely those benefits. are used to the positive and not you. know absolutely the whole idea is like. they're gaming the system for gambling. money and cigarettes like it's it's and. and it's like well they'll figure out. how to do that anyway but what you know.

to get to this point because you you. mentioned uh Jeff Bezos who just. recently said you know he wants the. opinion section of the Washington Post. to focus on supporting personal. Liberties and free markets and it's true. like when government gives a benefit and. then says oh but you know what you have. to get the 2% milk or the non-fat milk. because we don't trust you to make a. good decision that is so patronizing uh. to my mind it shouldn't be allowed but. you're not against the government.

subsidizing those that are left out of. uh whatever economic Prosperity comes. from the capitalist system which is I. think for a lot of people would be. surprising you know I've always said you. know Rand Paul is kind of the avatar for. all this in my mind only because having. Lobby down there for zoga act for 911. and pack act for veterans and other. things I always started to get the. impression that like a libertarian was a. republican whose Town hadn't hit hadn't.

been hit by a tornado yet right like it. was like no money for Sandy Relief and. then Kentucky gets hit by a tornado and. they're like come on which made me feel. like it wasn't a practical operating. system for people to be talking about. you you'll have fights over where the. line gets drawn exactly right things. like that but um you know to me it's you. know that that question and and I like. the way that you phrase it it's you know. it's like who who are the people who are. left out and particularly the people who.

are left out you know through no actions. of their own how do we give them a shot. at participating in society but Nick. that's a much more charitable view you. know and this I think is going to. surprise people I think they view. libertarianism in some ways as kind of. uh a purest form of a a kind of. selfishness right that you don't do and. I would say that's a more charitable. view than I here from the Republican. Party almost in its entirety I think.

they view poverty and being left behind. as Vice as somehow when in certain areas. I think if you were to look at like like. let's say the Midwest in the rush belt. right right I think the view there is. those poor people. globalization has hollowed out our. manufacturing base and then you would. say what about Chicago and New York City. and and minority communities and they. would say pull your pants up yeah and.

get a [ __ ] job it's almost an analog. of what happened to our manufacturing. base yet. viewed almost entirely differently and. without any sympathy what you're. describing is broadly uh you know uh a. lot of Republicans think this way I. think a lot of conservatives I think. liberals go back and forth when you're. talking about Chicago and it's like oh. we got to help these people but then if. it's some you know fat uh Walmart Mar. Chopper uh you know in in a small town.

in Indiana it's like you know you know. just buck it up pal no no no you're. right it does it it goes across lines. people have their prejudices against. different groups and this is one of the. things that is fascinating about Donald. Trump is that he is a master of playing. all of this kind of stuff against itself. because you know when he's talking about. tariffs and when he's talking about help. you know he just was praising the long. shoreman for you know getting a good. deal by resisting uh modernization of.

you know of containerized shipping um. it's you know he knows how to play all. of this do you think that's genuine. because I find him to be incredibly. dismissive of Labor and workers and he. views them you know I think in his. unguarded moments like the podcast he. did with Elon where he was laughing with. Elon about how badly they had cut you. know the workers at Twitter and. unionization being a full you know where. do you where do you think they are in. reality well you know Donald Trump uh.

and this is probably the only time the. sentence has been spoken in the English. language I think of Donald Trump like. Bob Dylan and by that I mean that he. hold on a minute are we recording this. yeah he has certainly blowing in the. wind but a million different Persona and. at any given point in time Bob Dylan. absolutely believes what he's singing. you know and when he was you know anti. War he believed that I like this when he.

thought Ruben Carter was was innocent uh. he thought that he believes it in the. moment yeah and then when he thought. that God was going to come and kill his. friends and throw them into a lake of uh. you know Everlasting Hellfire was only a. couple of years Nick you know that was. only a couple of years no quick but. Trump believes what he's saying like so. I don't think he's being calculated and. saying I'm I'm I'm screwing around with. the long shoreman it's a castanza thing. yeah that's right it's not a lie yeah if. you believe it. and in that moment he believes it yeah.

and but uh you know it does get into. this this larger question for the. country you know surprisingly I think my. worldview would fix just about. everything in the world but what why. didn't we talk to you sooner Nick you. know it's i' I've been waiting yeah you. know uh what we have now is a government. that pretty much at all levels but. certainly at the federal level is. spending way too much um it cannot or. won't it won't raise revenue to cover. its cost so it's creating debt and we.

can talk about why debt is a problem. Beyond you know some kind of uh you know. accounting fetish but we are trying to. do the government is trying to do so. many things it is doing them poorly and. it's unsustainable and I think you know. we're reaching a moment where this long. period after World War II and even after. the Cold War ended where okay there's a. reset coming and you can't keep spending. you know7 trillion do a year and taking. in and5 trillion dollar which is what. we're doing and we're going to have to.

make choices and this is where you know. I think if we would say here's the goal. of government the goal of government is. not to make sure that everybody ever. everywhere keeps the job they had when. they were 25 even if they're 65 but it's. like government is here to provide. several core functions and to kind of. keep things moving in a direction then. how do we pay for that like how much. does that cost how do we pay for it how. do we Empower people to you know to use.

you know whatever money we're given. listen I think you're putting your. finger on the essential questions that. we talk about I guess the way that I. would maybe address that is is slightly. different which. is government exists getting back to the. operating system the operating system. being Capital yeah no which is a. wonderful uh metaphor for everything in. my mind the government exists to soften. the blow that a by definition. exploitative system is going to extract.

you know capitalism is extractive there. Goods raw materials labor it's got to be. the cheapest Drive the highest profits. and the people that will benefit that. are necessarily a smaller slice of. people because it's a shareholder. operation not a a people operation and. the labor is not valued in the same way. that investment or capital is capital is. can I push on this a little bit because. what I was going to challenge is like. capitalism is inherently exploitative uh.

you know and that labor is always. getting you know punched in the head or. hit hit with in the kidneys with a. baseball bat by uh who was the guy in on. the waterfront Johnny friendley I think. no how did he get that name he wasn't. yeah yeah know I mean you know and and. maybe he had a bouncer who was really. fat that they called tiny I think it was. an ironic Universe oh that's how it. worked yeah um but um I don't. necessarily agree with that and and in a. lot of ways I would push back on it. because when you talk about you know uh.

like okay you know the the boss the boss. man and you know now we're back in. Springsteen Universe right because for. uh Bruce Springstein things have never. recovered from the Great Depression you. he's still mumbling along uh the the. Mean Streets of Rumson with his hat in. his hand you know what we can argue. about economic system but you were in. dangerous territory my friend dangerous. territory but what what I'm uh getting. at is that like you employers are. desperate generally speaking like if you.

are a good employee and I I worked as a. manager at reason for 20 plus years like. if there was somebody who was putting in. a better you know than average effort I. would do everything to keep them. including you know like paying them more. money but you're running a small. business re reason is a small it's not a. multi I'm talking RIT large about. multinational corporations and I'll make. the case I think because if you look at. well. in systems that are poorly regulated in.

terms of of capitalism right there is in. the same way that political power is. acred through a kind of contrived. incumbency I think wealth also. accumulates through a contrived. incumbency by those that are wealthy and. what you find is so let's go back to. times when capitalism was less fettered. and that would be sort of Gilded Age you. know it moves through it's one thing to.

say oh competition you know uh iron. tempers iron it makes everybody stronger. and it gets on but what happens is as. we've seen with monopolistic tendencies. in. capitalism once wealth is. acred it becomes much easier to then. keep tilting the table more in their. favor and it almost inexorably it's it's. a law of nature it's a you know kind of. Newton's law I hear you but I I you know. we will disagree with this uh we'll.

disagree to a large degree on this and. okay I don't think it changed but I you. know and I'm not saying that there. weren't times where uh you know. capitalism was uh you know read in tooth. and Claw and exploited it when was it. not I I guess that would be the easier. question well the reason what I'm what. I'm getting at is saying that when you. uh you know if you go back and this is. something there's a there's a type of uh. School of economic thought called public. Choice economics which. uh talks about how um you know the story.

that progressives tell capital P. progressives in particular tell about. capitalism is that it was awful not. awful but it's a system that. requires exploitation and extraction. well here but I I yeah so I mean it. generates but more wealth than any other. system no question but that wealth. accumulates unusually at the top you you. brought you brought up earlier the 50s. which I thought was a great. uh time and you're right but tax rates.

then were 80% or 90% And the GI bill. which was a giant government expense is. what helped build that stable middle. class that you're talking about well. first off uh nobody paid those tax rates. because those those were the printed. rates no seriously but that's why people. that's why things like expense accounts. uh you know and all sorts of things were. invented for upper level people sure and. they cut all kinds of dedu. the main engine rich people always find.

a way out of it true the main engine of. things like people being able to buy. their own homes and whatnot it was. increases in productivity through. industrialization and mechanization I. would argue it was not unionization it. wasn't the GI Bill I'm not saying those. things didn't have an effect but that. it's because we became wealthier because. suddenly we were building an economy. that used machines and other things to. become massively more productive wages. went up not because but not at the same. rate as producct you will always find.

that wages do not match productivity. gains they'll always lag they and. sometimes they're higher sometimes. they're higher sometimes they're lower. but like right now in America we're. basically we have like the highest. median household income that we've ever. had adjusted for inflation Maybe I'm. Wrong about this isn't 50 to 60% of. Americans living paycheck to paycheck no. well you have to you have to look into. what that means you know like you know. 60. 60 plus per of Americans own their own.

home compared to in the 50s it was much. lower uh you know they have college. educations they have more stuff oh. you're saying that our standard of. living is now higher comparatively. massively higher and and food is cheaper. uh you know everything is more abundant. plus you get the personal Liberty stuff. which I think is part of capitalism I. don't think you know it's not like. capitalism is an economic thing and then. you know you can you know it's the. weekend and you going to go to Plato's. Retreat or Studio 54 you know they're. all part they're all part of a of a same.

system right right um but having said. all of that I mean just to get back to. it it's like what capitalism does and. there's a a um an economist name Joseph. shumer the guy who created he coined the. term creative destruction and in a book. during World War II called capitalism. socialism and democracy he said you know. the the you know the great achievement. of capitalism was not making more silk. stockings for Queens the Queens ofland. uh the queens of Europe but bringing. them in reach of factory girls you're.

saying the Henry Ford the sort of uh the. mechanization of goods and services. allowed more people which I don't uh in. any way quibble with I think that's. that's why we use this operating system. I'm just saying the basis of this. operating system is inequality and you. see it in fits and starts it's why. economics goes through cycles and that. like if we hadn't done the New Deal. we'll talk about it this way government. intervention to ease the burden of those.

who are not able to protect their wealth. through incumbency and and really profit. at that arithmetic or geometric level. from the the fruits of capitalism is. what preserves the stability of the. system if we went more libertarian I. think you'd find the system is too. volatile and Revolution if we don't make. you know Revolution then becomes much. more inevitable so you've heard of the. uh the economic crash massive economic.

crash that happened in the early 20s uh. that was like bigger than the uh the. stock market crash in 1929 no yeah and. the government didn't do anything and. the stock market recovered very quickly. you're suggesting that after 1929 if the. if we hadn't gotten the New Deal. everything would have been fine I'm not. saying everything would have been fine. and it would have been difficult but the. new deal it's worth going back and. looking at did the new how did the New. Deal affect the economy and it string. out uh bad times because there are two.

economic depressions in the 30s uh that. that economists talk about and that. every government intervention um you. know has costs and benefits and. oftentimes we have lost sight of things. well let's use let's use a more like a a. more recent example which would be the. 2008 financial crisis versus the. pandemic yeah in 2008 financial crisis. it's caused by uh risk-taking Behavior. within our invest economy and. particularly that was behavior that was.

heavily incentivized by the federal. government uh in terms of guarantee uh. mortgage loans and things like that Andy. Freddy May and those guys got into the. game pretty late and I think it's you'd. be hardpressed to say that the hedge. funds did it because they thought the. government incentivized it no I mean but. it was the Federal Reserve first off. like kept interest rates artificially. low for a long time and then the. government had a policy of its you know. government government sponsored entities. of buying up all of the mortgage paper.

uh that was going so Banks did not do. the due diligence but they jumped into. that later everybody has uh you know. some Schmutz on their hands from all of. this but it's funny I think you and I. it's really I'm kind of interested in. this. because I think where you and I would. like Society to settle is probably. almost the same place abely I think you. and I would look at it as and here's my. path to get there. and you would say here's my path and. you've got to trust both of those paths.

you got to go and ultimately you got to. trust me yeah that's where it comes down. to theology Al I would argue that um. it's also you know we would probably. agree on similar um you know on a on a. similar path because I suspect I mean. you know we went I I was looking this up. beforehand um in 2000 in 2001 which was. Bill Clinton's final budget year as. president um you know he left office in. 2000 or early 2001 fiscal year lasts uh.

you know a little bit longer he spent. less than $2 trillion here that was the. entire federal budget we are over $7. trillion now in 2019 the year before. covid we were spending $4.4 trillion a. year um that went up to 6.6 trillion in. 2020 it is now $7.2. trillion um in in and I suspect that you. would agree with me that we should not.

be it's not clear why we're spending. $7.2 trillion well I certainly don't. think we're spending it effectively. that's I think that's for sure but like. why at all like how do you go from you. know we're postco so here's here's what. I would say with that there are. different ways to stimulate the economy. so I think since Reagan and probably. before that probably. Carter there has been the idea that. supply side sort of what they would call. neoliberal policy is the best way to.

stimulate the economy which means that. the money tax cuts for. incentivizing wealthier people and. corporations and allowing for more m&a. and allowing for consolidation within. Industries which in some ways you know. these these really it's the rise of. these gigantic. multinational uh corporations and it. gets back to sort of what we're talking. about in 2008 versus the pandemic in.

2008 the crash came from the. financialization of all these uh. products it came from the white collar. markets we bailed them out as taxpayers. which I would totally totally against uh. that as as was yeah but not against. bailing out homeowners that's maybe. where you and I would differ uh it. depends but um yeah but in the pandemic. when the era that rent assistance went.

out and the $600 the stimy went out what. it showed to me was it took us 10 years. it took us a decade after 2008 to even. get back to a semblance of where we were. the pandemic it took us a year or a year. and a half financially to be back what. it says is in my mind direct stimulus at. a demand side level is far more fiscally. responsible than these trickle down. neoliberal policies I think we can spend.

less and get more we can definitely be. more effective in intervening in. economic uh you know situations I don't. think part of the government's role. should be like hey you know what we uh. you know it it's not like going to a. personal trainer and you come in and. they're like hey you're looking a little. fat uh let's do some ABS today and and. have the government constantly be. smoothing the economy or I think it's. huous to think that can control things. it's one thing when you have a. catastrophic Adventure but isn't it to.

prevent more catastrophic Adventure at. some level well this is where you know. the uh this is where the the theology. comes in no no but it's also like. remember uh you know in the early uh. 2000s uh you know we had the uh Tech. bubble crash yes and then we had a bunch. of uh you know accounting rules that. were going to make sure that you know. big uh you know the financial sector. never [ __ ] around with [ __ ] anymore uh. then you know the financial crisis hits. larg I would argue is largely because of.

government actions or as heavily eded by. government actions as well as greed and. but don't you think those actions were. all influenced by the lobbyists from the. fin you know when the government sets. out to do something smart that gets. watered down almost immediately by the. moneyed interests this is you know. public Choice economics talks about how. like we think people want to think of. the government as acting somehow. differently than the private sector but. it's often times completely captured by. the interests that it's supposed to.

regulate or it is also just trying to. build its own Empire so it's going to. try and regulate more and more stuff so. is the idea Nick if we were to boil this. down let me ask you this is the idea. maybe that's fundamental to our. disagreement that because government can. be captured by the same corrupt and. corrosive interests that maybe business. can be captured by and I remember having. Greenspan on the show and saying why did. we have a crisis in 200 and he said well. I think we thought that the banks would. have done a better job of regulating.

themselves and I was like well yeah I. but the point being is the only way to. prevent that to remove government is. that is that your sort of foundational. principle not necessarily remove it. completely but minimize its attempt to. rig the system in favor of particular. outcomes whether that's for the little. guy or the big guy or whatever and let. the natural order and that you don't. fear the natural order will be that the.

little guy's got no chance against money. yeah I I don't and and I say this again. you know this is coming from uh you know. uh my father was born in Hell's Kitchen. in the. 1920s uh he did okay I did much better. than him what I'm I'm getting at is the. idea that I actually think that. capitalism offers more opportunities. specifically for people to Rise Up from. the uh you know the lower classes and. the and the middle classes you mean as. opposed to Communism or socialism is or.

or like you know a super regulated. market where you're only getting into. schools because of you know what family. you come from and all of this kind of. stuff which is still a large part of the. operating system that we work absolutely. no and and nothing is perfect right. nothing is perfect but you know we came. out of the financial crisis with oh now. we know we're not going to do anything. too big to fail right and it's like in. fact the financial industry uh the. financial sector is more um you know is. more concentrated than it ever was and. everybody in it knows that like oh no.

we're too big to fail which also means. we can [ __ ] around and find out how bad. you know so what I'm saying watch us. yeah this govern you know the government. it is a very tricky thing and once you. start thinking like okay the government. can control stuff and make good outcomes. like it it does until you know you. realize how this was a big catastrophe. um and I think with something like the. covid stuff you know when we're talking. about there's economic issues which are. worth talking about and I think you know.

the massive uh increasing and extending. of unemployment benefits was really bad. and it it's generated so much debt that. is going to you know that's not that's. not going away even if like the annual. uh GDP growth is is increasing and. things like that there were so many. interventions into the economy where if. the government had done smaller uh. smaller targeted things for shorter. times I think we would be better off. well I think they were also not. practiced with demand side stimulus and.

so maybe they just didn't understand. quite what what the real value of it was. because the amount of economic activity. it generated even with wrecked Supply. chains but so this brings us sort of. around and Nick I can't thank you enough. for yeah uh you know sitting and and and. having the conversations because there's. so much in it that is uh relevant to. today but also uh so many places of. agreement that people may not have. thought well this is not an extreme.

philosophy and it is not a fringe. philosophy it is most people although. can be exploited as such by people oh. yeah totally and and it can be vilified. wrongly and it can be taken in bizarre. directions and stuff but like basically. what you're talking about is like you. want to live in a world where you can. you know figure out who you are and. build the world that you want to live in. um and you know you you know and not to. get too libertarian and uh you know on. this like it means you know that like if. you want to if if you want to marry you.

know if you're a man and you want to. marry a man you know like you know. anything that is among consenting adults. is good if you want to smoke weed rather. than you know drink whiskey like you. shouldn't go to prison for that and it. shouldn't be illegal to buy and sell. this [ __ ] and you know and if you want. to run a if you want to run a business. that does this versus that like you know. anything that's peaceful and coming from. somebody who still believes in. government's ability to give people help. yes yeah I also believe government is. far too honorous far too bureaucratic if.

I could give it anything it would be a. moonshot uh to dispel unnecessary. paperwork and to uh make it so that they. don't have such ridiculous rules for. every project that has to satisfy every. interest group That Ever Walked the. Earth but that's part of what government. is designed to do right I mean I think. think that's I don't think that's a bug. I think that's a feature maybe of.

government and and you you would argue. capitalism's the feature what I'm saying. right you know it is like really no we. need more girls in the shirt Wang shirt. waist triangle Factory I mean in some. respects like because they started off. with imperialism and colonialism and. slavery and so everything that they give. us from that feels like you know it's a. concession you know we're what what are. you talking about we're PID you you're. not a slave yeah let's flip it now to at. least what's happening now because I.

think you know there is a feeling that. the Trump Administration is libertarian. friendly and that doge is libertarian. friendly and I guess my vision of what. they're doing does not match like the. idea that you know RFK Jr is a give to. Libertarians seems crazy to me but yeah. or or that any of this is they're not. talking about Freedom they're talking. about. uh fty and they're talking about yes.

free speech is a wonderful value unless. we don't like it and we will bring to. bear an even more. authoritarian way to to so so how are. you feeling you know it's a fascinating. uh kind of question and uh I can't. really speak for other Libertarians sure. um but you know what I liked about Trump. winning uh is that I think it put a cap. on a broad series of uh developments and.

kind of policies and attitudes that had. settled over the country kind of like. you know a DDT fog that wasn't going way. are you saying I'm riding my bike behind. the Trump Administration as a fire. popping a wheelie on my banana seat and. all this no it but you know and that had. to do you know there were certain things. about wokeness and about kind of you. know uh policing of speech in a public. way that was onerous uh you know and the. only solution to that really is for.

people to say like you know what I am. not going to allow you to call me a. racist uh you know and I'm I'm going to. speak my mind I'm going to be public. about that do you think that's purely a. purview of the left no no I mean this is. you know people are now talking about. the woke left is being replaced by the. woke right and you know I mean the idea. that uh you know policing language so. that you know if you're in the presence. of trump or a trump tart and you call it. the Gulf of Mexico they will be like you. you no longer exist to me or something.

and like this is not progressed by any. stretch see I always looked at it more. as a function of social media which kind. of gave the villagers who wanted. pitchforks and torches a way to go after. everybody and like you know and that. includes by the way things that have. nothing to do with politics if you were. to criticize you know One Direction you. would get a [ __ ] storm coming your way. oh it was great though and I I like that. I mean I think it's empowering even as. it it it fractures us but well that's. the other side is that's people.

expressing their speech yeah yeah and I. I mean I always uh early on in Twitter. or not that early on but I remember uh. when Bill Cosby you know he was coming. back with like a Netflix special and a. tour and stuff like that and he had a. Twitter feed an official Twitter feed. and they would put out stuff saying like. you know hey uh you know you know uh Dr. Cosby wore great sweaters on The Cosby. Show you know post your favorite sweater. and everybody just like immediately went. after him for all of the sexual assault. and rape.

allegations and it's like that's the. world I want to live in you know where. where like the the big people and the. little people are suddenly kind of in. the same room and that could be. terrifying it's especially terrifying if. you're a big person right see I never. had a pro look I I feel like I operate a. you know a small artisanal talk shittery. and if people want to like operate they. talk shittery back at me that is only. fair so I guess I'm trying to separate. wokeness from people just giving each. other incessant [ __ ] about everything.

but then you get to places where it. becomes implemented in terms of various. kinds of speech codes as well as hiring. policies at universities at corporations. you know because corporations are just. doing whatever they can do to make the. next Buck I got a bumper sticker. corporations are [ __ ] like they Bas. they don't want any trouble like I'll. tell you what in terms of content. creation the biggest sort of censor ing. blanket that went over show business I. didn't think was wokeness it was when.

Rona santis sued Disney yeah as soon as. that happened you saw people back off of. content that they thought or like when. Trump threatens to jail Zuckerberg right. that I guess that's my problem is just. the hypocrisy of it all I know I'll say. you know because you you brought this up. you had a really good and powerful and. instructive moment when you were raising. questions about the lab leak Theory on. the on Steven colar show coar show yeah. yeah on The Late Show you know and and.

again it's like you know what we found. under Biden and I suspect if you go back. far enough there was some of this under. Trump and under Obama and Bush and like. back before the FCC you know all of this. stuff but where the government was. actively leaning on people to say Do not. permit this discussion or Tamp it down. Etc have they ever not less now than. ever and this is one of the things to. bring it back to Trump you know he. signed an executive order saying that. nobody in his administration should be.

trying to shut down conversation on. social media does he mean that I don't. know um but that's good but then his I. can tell you he doesn't mean it I think. it's pretty obvious he doesn't mean it. I've honestly never seen a president and. I know they lean on people I'm not. naive I've never seen someone threaten. to jail people who don't use the. terminology I've seen them try and. reveal sources in a way that I thought. was I think what they did to Snowden was. insane like all those different things.

I've seen it but he's making it. explicit and. yet was was hailed as the free speech so. what I what I will say and again this is. you know I I uh I didn't vote for Trump. I voted for the libertarian candidate. because you know why not uh and um you. know but Trump trump will be in a. effective in in he's not going to. actually jail people but isn't the.

threat of it all that matters it's. terrible no it is yeah whether he jails. them or not is kind of not the issue. it's it's not it's not all that matters. but it is bad and he should be called. out for it I mean you know in a way. Trump in a way his whole career his. whole politics career is the Triumph of. talk back you know of telling the system. go [ __ ] yourself because nobody wanted. him the Republicans didn't want him. originally nobody wanted him so in in a. way he personifies a world in which we. are Freer than ever to just say [ __ ] it.

I'm doing whatever I want um unless it's. against him yeah as president it is an. awful thing and when you look at. Governor's DeSantis did this uh Greg. Abbott in Texas did this too where they. started writing laws that were tailored. to screw over social media companies. they didn't like because they thought. they were censoring conservative voices. which turned out not to be true or. Educators that were teaching in a way. that for all the complaints of the woke. left they've rarely ins sconed it in law.

in the way that the right has yeah I and. you could argue they didn't have to uh. maybe but it's it's all bad like any. anytime the government uh you know uh. you know Congress shall make no law you. know a bridging speech that's it like. and that that that should be the case at. the state level too and all of that are. you aligning with their their other. goals of you know like I personally if. you could make government more efficient. oh my God I don't necessarily know that. that's what they're doing it feels.

awfully inefficient the way they're. doing it but well and it's a it's a real. mix of uh you know for me the biggest. problems with Trump as a figure were had. to do with immigration policy and. tariffs um be and you know he's just. categorically awful you would not a. Libertarian would not be protectionist. in terms of you even made the point. earlier in terms of cars yeah you think. that opening up that that competition. let me ask you this maybe this is a. different way to frame kind of.

Dei so for me if if you reframe that. argument. economically it maybe aligns a little. bit more with how you feel because what. I think diversity and inclusion and. Equity means maybe not in the practice. and I I don't think it means sitting. through that hourlong seminar where. everybody looks at each other and goes I. never said that about her ass like it's. not that but I look at it as more.

competition right you know we have. supply lines in this country in trenched. poverty and groups that have been. explicitly kept out of uh you know. Equity through government action and all. kinds of other ways if you reanimate. those supply lines you strengthen the. res you know don't think of it as. diversity think of it as Emerging. Markets think of it as as that and. suddenly you view it as an engine of. economic growth right I mean is there a.

sports League that got worse after. blacks were allowed to play and no and. you know in every possible way right. right it's just it's like you know you. were you were Walling off a huge source. of you know powerful possibilties. veterans have been walled off in many. ways uh women were walled off people in. uh poverty-stricken neighborhoods Are. Walled off uh Appalachia has been walled. off.

forever that to me that's what inclusion. and diversity and Equity means. unfortunately those policies never you. know had any you know they they weren't. reaching those people because they're. doing what they can not what they should. what what what what they're allowed to. do is you can't address those shriveled. supply lines and reanimate them and get. those uh uh you know community ities. involved so here's what we're going to. let you do we're going to let you have.

an office on the eighth floor and every. April you're gonna give us a. presentation for two hours that. everybody hates how about that yeah and. that's and that's what we're doing are. are you excited about that project of do. do you think it will bear fruit yeah I. well I am very excited by the idea of. having uh you know a government that has. done an audit of its Workforce and of. its activities which by the way I think. it it does do I think it mostly ignores. it almost every Department there has to.

be audited only defense doesn't pass. them but but they do do that yeah no. well actually there's more like that and. you know and this is I was excited the. other day when there were a bunch of. tweets uh you know saying that oh Doge. has entered the Pentagon and it's like. okay yeah this should be very. interesting right and then the question. is what are they what are the metrics. they're looking for because cutting all. the probation I just don't yet if. they're actually looking at at value or. they're just looking at size that's.

right and uh you know a good example of. this uh an economist friend of mine uh. wrote about how at the FDA they had cut. apparently they had like cut 200 uh. Regulators like people who actually go. through stuff to see whether or not the. very people who are doing it yeah and if. you if you keep the regulations in place. and cut the workforce that is going to. see if they're complying like you just. make everything worse and this is where. I think the Trump Administration not.

across the board uh but in certain. circumstances may actually be a good. thing so you take the FDA they had uh. they named a guy Marty mackery who's a. professor from John's Hopkins who's. pretty smart you know he'll be reporting. I guess ultimately to uh to uh Robert F. Kennedy which is you know a whole other. weird. bag weird right I don't know you know. like um but but but if the FDA and you. know and this is something coming out of. a Libertarian uh perspective and and.

Analysis like if the FD the it costs way. too much to bring new drugs to Market uh. it takes too long and it bring and and. it takes uh it takes too long and cost. too much right there are ways to bring. more drugs to Market without. compromising safety and if the. government would restructure the FDA and. Macker has talked about this RFK and the. second his Deputy at Health and Human. Services have talked about ways to do.

this like if they do that so that it. doesn't take a couple billion dollars in. 12 years to bring a new drug to Market. that's a big win and that is something. that we could completely do uh we could. do it overnight until the [ __ ] hits the. the the problem with government that. that using sort of first principles of. business like when I look at Elon right. what he's been able to accomplish like. however you want to feel about him it's. it's pretty [ __ ] remarkable yeah. totally but it's a different ethos like.

yeah you have to blow up a [ __ ] ton of. rockets before you figure out the right. way and the problem in the public sphere. is the public. demands agility and also Perfection do. you know what I mean it's sort of like. the same way with our Criminal Justice. System we demand Perfection that anybody. who's ever let out of prison cannot re. you know recommit a crime or else we. have to make the system utterly. ridiculous in its best iteration or its.

best kind of sense if doge is going to. help us go through and just trim out. like you know clean out the house. there's just too much [ __ ] in the house. that would be great man I just don't. have confidence yet that that's I no and. I I agree because of the question um you. know like are they doing it well I have. been thinking about this you know like. Elon is is bragging about how you know. he's got like a bunch of pre-teen coders. are quants and they can go through. spreadsheets and the stuff they're. finding like you know they keep finding.

massive mistakes like where they were. claiming a uh a contract they ended with. ice was at 8 billion and it was actually. $8 million and things like that like I. worry that we're seeing a different. iteration of that where people think. because you can [ __ ] do excel you. suddenly have wisdom um that's going to. be problematic go beyond that Nick I. think it's actually the bigger problem. is it's ideologically antagonistic. that they are viewing those people. immediately through the prism of a.

parasitic relationship to our to our. money and viewing them immediately as. enemies and suspicious and even in the. sense of when they sent the email it is. in no way uh an unreasonable exp. expectation that people who work for you. you would want to know what they're. doing and that they've been doing. something but if you don't work in that. department department and just say to. them what have you been doing and they. tell you you don't know if that's what. they're supposed to be doing or not.

meanwhile they have to spend all this. [ __ ]. time figuring it out which is. inefficient and people at you know the. the depart Department of Defense the. Department of Justice and and National. Intelligence you know Tulsa Gabbert said. hey don't comply with this so you're. already at odds having said that yeah it. is important like and and this is where. you know Trump trump was Trump won and. more important like he gained in almost. every possible demographic subgroup so.

people are ready for a change and that's. the most important thing and I think. Trump has set the stage for this and. he's opened up ground where we can start. having more conversations it's up to. each of us to come up with like okay. this is the way it should go like I you. know I was saying to my wife earlier. this morning like I would love to go to. Mars in my life but I don't want to fly. there with Elon Musk sitting next to me. right that's your breakfast conver that. over egos what are we talking about Nick.

have you guys run out of [ __ ] to talk. about yeah we've only been married like. less than six months so I yeah is that. really yes oh congratulations um it in. any case um you know so what what we're. at we are at a place where we understand. you know this is why the Republican. party and the Democratic parties don't. make sense like since the end of world I. certainly the end of the Cold War maybe. even the beginning of the century like.

it's all kind of played out and it's not. working that well like we need to maybe. the house isn't a complete tear down but. we need to clean it up we need to. repaint it we need to say you know what. we're we're going to sublet that whole. part of it like we don't we don't need. to be doing that and that's really. important and vital and I agree with you. in this sense of like saying if it's. adversarial if everything becomes. adversarial. then what we we've this whole Century. we've been going between you know.

control whole or partial control of the. White House and the House of. Representatives and the Senate from. Republicans to Democrats back and forth. in a way that hasn't been seen in over a. century and it's because we haven't. figured out a new consensus that is. actually that people can live with and. so we just go from Biden being insane in. this direction now Trump you know and. and we're not getting to a resolution I. think we have have the moment to do that. I think there's great opportunity and I. I agree with you with that no and I.

think it's true and listen I I think one. of the things I would say is a lot of. people I think you and I included agree. with a lot of the diagnoses yeah that we. look at these issues and we say it's. sclerotic or you know I would look at it. as there's a really tough counterbalance. now and that democracy is a by Nature. kind of analog system and we live in a. digital world and those tensions are. really hard to resolve but. I I would say in that moment probably.

the conversation is about the remedies. and I I'm looking at it right now with. great fear that this is not the remedy. uh that will bring that opportunity for. that moment well I think let's yeah it. is the opportunity um you know that's. here and then the remedies that are. being uh proferred are not great um what. is interesting is to see. you know we're not even 100 days in. right to uh Trump it's like a month. month in honestly it feels like he's.

never not been president I don't. remember I I don't know I I've said this. before the presidency is supposed to age. the president not the people I am. withering yeah it's really really hard. to think back even six months to what. was going on but it's again it's helpful. and it's essential because you know you. know when we look back at where we were. like we've gone through most of this. stuff before and we figured out ways to.

kind of improve on the past or to you. know be better at what we're doing and I. think we need to do that and I think. it's you know right now in a way um you. know Trump has The High Ground for a. little while but this is also true of. every president you know by the summer. you know we'll know whether or not he is. popular like if his specific fixes are. popular or not I suspect that they will. be less popular over time but again some. of them like you know let's you know.

let's legalize drugs at the federal. level and just stop worrying about a. whole bunch of [ __ ] we've been worried. about for a hundred years um let's come. to you know there there is a broad. recognition that the US should not be. the world's policeman but apparently the. developer of. Gaza apparently we shouldn't be the. world's policemen but we should just. Annex territories and build casinos. there yeah no this is where it's it's. confusing um you know and it's we we. need to get to a place where the.

solutions that are being discussed are. actually good and legitimate and it'll. be interesting to see if the Democrats. um you know like I I'm uh you know very. uh bothered by people being like Oh my. God the Democrats have nobody the. Republicans will win every election for. the next thousand years because that's. how history works yeah everybody has. said that every you know when Bush was. and then reelected and then when Obama. I'm old enough to remember when fukiyama. said history was over yeah that we were.

just done we had triumphed it was over. and he but he was you know in a way he. was right in saying you know that. liberal democracy is the way forward but. even that's in Retreat now even that. kind of kind of but it's also true that. like China is you know China is not. democ Democratic but it's like it's more. capitalist than it was when he said that. but state-run capitalism is not free. market and that would be antithetical to. everything that you're and the more we. become like Russia the less we become.

like the free markets I totally agree. with that but all I'm saying in China is. that people are getting richer uh around. the globe I mean one of the most. important and fascinating facts that. nobody discusses and I think they this. should be talked about much more there. is a global middle class the majority of. people on the planet are at the middle. class or above level for the first time. in human history is that really true. that that's actually very surprising to. me because I would not have there's a. guy named Romy carus at the Brookings. institution has been writing about this.

for a decade and most of it is happening. in Asia and in uh Africa and South. America and so we don't really care. about that but you know what happens. what happens when middle people you know. get a little bit of extra money and then. you say oh you know here you've got more. money in the bank but you can't spend it. the way you want to people are like [ __ ]. you and like you know this this is a. good problem to have GL. like this is what I want to happen for. the United States I want there to be. these as we talked earlier I want those.

entrenched places of poverty I think. those are great untapped engines of. progress uh for things but Nick uh uh. I'm I'm cognizant of your time I really. appreciate the convers I i' I've enjoyed. it so much thank you I appreciate it too. and uh it is you know this is this you. know I mean one of the things that. you're doing which I think a lot of. people who would identify themselves you. know as not being a you know Republic. like a magga republican right like you.

are not freaking out in the way that. externally I am not every well I mean. yeah but everybody is so oppositional. that it's like you know you're either. voting for Harris or you're voting for. Trump and if you're not if you're not. totally on board people don't want to. talk to you well there's a a purity test. and a litmus testing in almost. everything but there are more people now. and this continues to grow you know that. are independent and we can argue about. whether or not there are real.

Independence politically but fewer and. fewer people are willing to identify as. Democratic or Republican and polls and. that's saying something and it means. that these organizations don't represent. the large masses of people anymore and. parties work better when they figure out. okay where is the majority at and how do. we deal with that well it's funny we. it's almost like we have a parliamentary. country in a. twoy government you know and it makes it. like you say it it it really makes it uh.

incredibly uh you know complex but I'd. love to have the conversation again you. know we'll pick it up again uh to see. where everything's let's go to a uh. child run factory in Bangladesh. and is there a budget uh for that always. so cheery the always cheering Nic. kesie uh as the Jersey comes out of them. uh editor at large of Reon magazine host. of the reason interview with Nick. delesie podcast uh Nick thank you so. much for spending the time today really.

really enjoyed it oh it's my pleasure. thank you. John I love talking to that guy I felt. like I was he's so smart and he's got. such a breath of knowledge and even. though we obviously like we disagree on. especially I thought the biggest one was. capitalism being exploitative that that. surprised me I I do think it's an engine. of prosperity but it very clearly has. losers so but I thought thought was a. uh a very interesting conversation and I. and I very much enjoyed it did we uh.

ever get that definition of. libertarianism it's I don't know that. there is one it's whatever you it's. whatever you want it to be I think. something that really stood out was just. uh while Jillian and I looking into this. uh episode just how diverse Libertarians. are really much so and I think a good. example of that is the fact that some. people feel RFK is within the. libertarian camp and most Libertarians. also think that Ross olre is in the camp. so one person you know for legalizing.

drugs and the other for Banning like red. Dy three yep y y hey look and in this. world order now it's like Andrew Tate is. the libertarian yeah I don't think that. I don't think that's what they're. talking about I don't I think it's like. uh a different philosophy but he's an OG. yeah and I like I you know I spent a few. days kind of in their corner of the. Public Square and like while I. vehemently disagree with a lot of the. things that they believe in I did.

appreciate that they don't arrive at. those ideas with the same like gleeful. cruelty that you see in right-wing media. and they don't filter everything through. that lens it's really it's clear there's. a a real intellect you know anybody. who's coming at you with you know. fredman and Hayek as the foundation of. uh what they're talking about isn't just. in it for the Dank Pepe the Frog be. yeah it's nice it's nice to be presented. with ideas I don't agree with in ways. that I don't have to recoil.

from bars Jillian put that on a pillow I. like that very much uh Brit are people. just writing in today to see if I'm. still alive because uh it appears the. fragility of when you cut your finger I. literally got a call from my mom are. like are you okay I'm like you you were. with me in childhood you know I'm like I. ran head first into tree what are you. talking about woman people are very. concerned about your wellbeing so it's. nice to see you you know when you're.

anemic to begin. with um we did get one feedback that I'd. love to read to you please um John I. love you but if you keep using the line. democracy is an analog system in a. digital world I'm going to lose my mind. I did it again today I know why what. what what do they think is uh is is it. too cliched is it trite what what's the. issue you think well listen to the rest.

of this okay I I could get drunk in a. drinking game for every time you see. that that is true much love brother but. really well we've been playing a. drinking game this whole time so wait I. gotta say though it'd be a drinking game. over a period of months which seems like. a long time to keep a drinking I wish. they' put in there why so now I don't. know if they think that's incorrect or. just overused overused you know. definitely like it's sort of like when.

you're trying to make something happen. and then it doesn't happen uh like fetch. yeah yes exactly it's my version of. fetch but maybe that he'll write back. and and and tell we're gonna respond to. him or after listening to this uh. episode he may be too. drunk where else have them to keep it. coming where where how can they keep it. coming uh Twitter we are weekly show pod. Instagram threads Tik Tok Blue Sky we. are weekly Show podcast and you can like. subscribe and comment on our YouTube.

channel the weekly show at John Stewart. bang on guys thank you as always for the. incredible preparation and uh detail. that you provide in every episode that. allows me to just sit and and and talk. to somebody um lead producer Lauren. Walker producer Britney mic video editor. and engineer Rob vah audio editor and. engineer Nicole Boyce researcher and. Associate producer Jillian here and as. always our executive producers Chris MC. Shane and Katie gray guys thank you so. much that was a really fun episode and I.

will see you all next. [Music]. week the weekly show with John Stewart. is a Comedy Central Podcast it's. produced by Paramount audio and bus Boy. Productions. [Music].