Jon Stewart & Jon Meacham Break Down Trump, Biden & America’s Future | The Weekly Show

JON STEWART: Why do you say things better than I. do, Meacham? I really don't care for that. JON MEACHAM: I'm sorry, I know. JON STEWART: You should be a writer. [THEME MUSIC]. Well, hello, everybody. How have you been? It's Jon Stewart. It's The Weekly Show pod. We are back after a three-year absence, or what feels like a three-year absence, in that, boy, an awful lot of ups and downs in living. has been put into those three years.

We are-- this is being taped midweek. before the inauguration, which will take place, I believe--. I believe-- although everything seems to be-- for some reason, everything with this transfer of power. seems to be going very smoothly. As I had posited earlier, it is amazing. how the peaceful transfer of power. can occur when you don't act like a little bitch. when you lose. So that is occurring as of this recording.

There is still some Los Angeles left. Please, God, let this nightmare for those folks. be done, and let the healing and rebuilding of that area, which is going to be a Herculean and emotional task, please let that start. In this moment, boy, what an awful--. and it really, I think, accentuates the kind.

of tenuous moment that I think a lot of people. are feeling themselves in. As we move towards this Inauguration Day--. and no one can know what's going to happen, but boy, trepidation is our constant companion. as we lead into this. We've been promised shock and awe, and not in the good way, I don't believe. You know, there are those moments of anticipation. that you have. There's some anticipatory moments where you're like, "Oh,

tomorrow, it's my birthday, and we're having an ice cream bar.". And then there's this moment of anticipation, which feels a little bit more like, "I think my parents are sending me forcefully. to a wilderness camp.". There is-- I just, boy, you feel. like you're staring down the barrel of something not fun. You know, there are a lot of things people can shoot at you. through a barrel, one of them being a T-shirt at a sporting.

event, and that's fun. But this doesn't appear to be one of those moments. But obviously, I want to withhold certain judgment, but in these moments, I do find myself. looking for historical perspective and solace. Truly. Like it does-- it does help me to view it through the prism. of the cycles that we've been through in the country, and the other up and down cycles,

and the terrible tribulations, and the interesting triumphs, and the unexpected moments. So the guest today, on our first pod back of 2025, is someone who I think is most able to provide that kind. of perspective and contents--. context and thoughtfulness. So I'm just going to damn, get to it, for God sakes, so let's do it. Welcome back, Weekly Show pod, and our first guest.

[THEME MUSIC]. Folks, I can't think of anybody that I would rather. talk to in this moment in time than the fabulous historian, Bon vivant, gentleman and scholar, JON MEACHAM: Bon vivant. JON STEWART: --Jon Meacham, Presidential. Historian, author of And There Was. Light, a biography of Lincoln. Jon, welcome. Thank you for joining us in this moment of anticipation.

JON MEACHAM: Bon vivant. JON STEWART: Bon vivant. Thank you. JON MEACHAM: Thank you. JON STEWART: Welcome to the salon. Thank you so much for being here. There's so much to talk about, but I. want to go off of something that you've said often, which. is politicians are mirrors of who we are in many respects. and not molders. JON MEACHAM: Yeah. JON STEWART: I think that's such an interesting concept.

With Trump, then, what is the mirror here? Because he feels like a molder, if you could call him that, but what's the mirror? What is your sense of what this moment is saying about us? JON MEACHAM: Well, not to get too lost in the metaphor, but that's what I do, so we might as well, to mold, you have to amass power.

And in that way, you tend to mirror. So President Trump-- and I just want to say something. I'm going to call him President Trump, because one. of the things that drove me crazy in the last 48 months. was this snarky tone on the right, which was--. there was this creature who was in power called Biden. JON STEWART: So they didn't call him President Biden. They just said, Biden. JON MEACHAM: I swear to God. You watch FOX all day long and it's just--. and it-- [SHIVERS]. President Trump is a mirror of, I think,

our most basic instincts of I think that he. has deepened and exacerbated many. of our worst characteristics. And one of the arguments that we have, and I have this. with people who are in power at the moment. and will be for at least 48 more hours, is people will say,

this isn't who we are. Well, of course it's who we are. JON STEWART: Right. JON MEACHAM: We've lived out of compliance with the Declaration. of Independence far more often than we've. lived in compliance with it. That's not to say, oh, therefore, it's all going to work out, or let's. not do anything about that. JON STEWART: Unpack that, though a little bit, because that's such an interesting thought, because unpack--. In terms of living outside the Declaration of Independence. or the Constitution, I've always sort of had that sense,

you know, you have this founding document that says all. men are created equal, and within the same document, some men are considered 3/5 of a human. JON MEACHAM: Yeah. JON STEWART: And is that the-- is that the compliance-- right, different document, but is that the compliance. you're talking about? JON MEACHAM: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, so we began the national experiment voluntarily. by saying that we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal. Didn't have to do that.

But Jefferson, on one of the great committees of all time--. Jefferson, Franklin, Sherman, Livingston, and Adams, I would. assign them anything to do. It must have been a great deck, when Franklin. ran through the deck--. a white guy, a flawed 33-year-old, white guy, slave owner, articulated an ideal of human liberty, unique in that time and place for someone.

with power to articulate that. So that's-- people who look like me, did sort of set the standard. And then, as you say, we immediately, 30 seconds later, fell short of it. So 1776 to 1865, we allowed human enslavement, so, out. of compliance, seems to me.

We had a brief period after the Civil War where white folks who. looked like me down here in the South could not vote, because we would-- a lot of folks. wouldn't take an oath back into the United States. Black folks could vote very briefly. And then there's a white reaction, a white supremacist. reaction, in the 1870s. So let's just say for 10 years, we were in compliance. [LAUGHING]. OK, so it's-- right? We got 10. Seriously, think about it.

JON STEWART: No, you're--. you're dead on. JON MEACHAM: Then we go back out of it from, really, the 1876 election, which pulled federal troops out of the South. as a price of Hayes beating Tilden. And then we really roll until 1965, where separate accommodations, incredible obstacles to. franchise, and so, basically--.

and there's a frequent argument about this. I believe it-- we'll be celebrating. the 250th anniversary in a couple of years--. JON STEWART: Right. JON MEACHAM: --I think we're 60 years old. I think we were founded in 1965. And in many ways, to bring this to exactly to where we are, President Trump is, in many ways, a reaction to the implications of what unfolded in the country. in 1964 and '65.

JON STEWART: In terms of the Voting Rights Act? Are you talking also about immigration at that time? JON MEACHAM: Well, both. JON STEWART: Right. JON MEACHAM: Becoming a genuine multiethnic, multiracial democracy. And you're right, it was the Civil Rights Act, it was the Voting Rights Act, and it was the Immigration. and Nationality Act, in 1965. JON STEWART: Which changed the demographic of the country. It moved sort of immigration from that more. Western European model to something. that was browner and--. JON MEACHAM: Right. And for those who think that, oh, boy, if only it could be like it was in the old days, what the 1965 Act did was repealed the restrictive 1924.

Act, which, as you say, established. these national quotas that emphasized Northern Europe. JON STEWART: Right. JON MEACHAM: And that's what was in place when the Roosevelt. administration chose to follow the letter of the law. and not allow more refugees in from Nazi Germany. JON STEWART: Right. JON MEACHAM: so That's how this matters. JON STEWART: Right. Right.

JON MEACHAM: So I-- you know, look, this is who we. are, right? I have argued for a long time, you and I. have had this argument, that the remarkable thing. about the country is that we get as much right as we do. And that's a really easy thing for me to say. I'm a boringly heterosexual, white, Southern male, Episcopalian, right? JON STEWART: Is that your Tinder profile, Jon? Is that what's on there? JON MEACHAM: It is. It is. It is. JON STEWART: Boring, heterosexual, white--.

JON MEACHAM: White Southern male, Episcopalian. JON STEWART: All right. JON MEACHAM: And we had a hell of a run. JON STEWART: Yeah, I'm intrigued. JON MEACHAM: Yeah, we had about 10,000 years. And there are a lot of folks who are thinking, wait a minute, we're not going to be in charge--. JON STEWART: Right. JON MEACHAM: --and this is a reaction to that. JON STEWART: Or it's a loss of absolute power. It's this idea that, that would be the default setting. of the country, and that is the, quote unquote, "meritocracy" and that anything that deviates from that. And so what does it say then, because I think this brings it.

back to your interesting point, which is, and we have chosen a kind of retreat from that. 2016 was kind of felt like an anomaly. The popular vote was lost. It was a surprise. This feels, it's not Reagan winning 49 states, but it's a much stronger argument. to a broader coalition, and a choice that the country--. JON MEACHAM: The country has made a choice.

JON STEWART: --made a choice. And I'm wondering, does it reflect--. and maybe this is a broader point for America, in general--. does it reflect it's a Democratic repudiation, in. some respects, of democracy? If that contradiction can make sense. Donald Trump clearly has run in a manner that says, I want to accrue more power in the executive. than maybe the founders and the Constitution.

are comfortable with. I want the Supreme Court to grant me immunities that. seem utterly at odds with so many. of the other checks and balances that go along there. And it is a Democratic approval, in some ways, of an anti- or less Democratic movement. Does that make sense? JON MEACHAM: The one edit I would make. is it's a populist retreat from democracy.

[LAUGHING]. JON STEWART: Why do you say things better than I. do, Meacham? I really don't care for that. JON MEACHAM: I'm sorry, I know. JON STEWART: You should be a writer. You should be a writer. JON MEACHAM: If Edward R. Murrow and Johnny. Carson had a baby, it's you. Are they allowed to do that now? Probably not. JON STEWART: They are now. They wouldn't have been allowed to do that a few years ago, but they're allowed-- they're allowed to do it now. So is that-- does that put us at more risk then--. JON MEACHAM: Yes. JON STEWART: --as this goes along. OK. JON MEACHAM: Yes, it does. It does, and I'm not trying to be alarmist.

JON STEWART: No, no, no, I understand. JON MEACHAM: I thought Trump was a difference of degree, but not kind. And from-- you talked about '16--. until 2020 and really the aftermath of the election--. JON STEWART: Right. JON MEACHAM: --the stuff he did was reprehensible. There was a corrosion of the presidency as an institution. that I revere. I found myself with my children trying. to explain why their father spends. his time recording the history of something that. seems so flawed.

JON STEWART: Oh, wow. You even thought of it in a manner of, I've spent my life kind of revering--. JON MEACHAM: Yes, yes. JON STEWART: --the history of this system, and to watch it be. so casually discarded made you question the things. that you were doing. Why record something that is now this, I don't know, tenuous? JON MEACHAM: Yes. And that part-- the answer to that part should be, well--. and in fact, that is the answer I have, which is the fact that it is tenuous and contingent means.

we have to tell the stories of moments. of both peril and possibility, because this is what we've got. And so, I didn't question the efficacy of the work, if that makes sense. I did-- but it was an emotional sadness. It was-- and here's just a quick story about it. So I, on Ash Wednesday 2021--.

I'm sure you remember where you were. JON STEWART: You know me. I'm the one who's--. I'm the guy with the pots with the ashes just. going, do whatever you want. Somebody's got to gather them. JON MEACHAM: Burning the palms. JON STEWART: That's right. JON MEACHAM: But I remember, because I was going up to--. I had a meeting in Washington, and my daughter, who was. then 16, 17, wanted to go up. And we had the opportunity to run and see someone whose.

office was in the Capitol. JON STEWART: Just go ahead and say the president. Just say the president. JON MEACHAM: Well, no, I was going to say the president. No, I was saying the president later, but that-- but that day, it was the capital itself. JON STEWART: All right. JON MEACHAM: But I had some time, and so went up to see a lawmaker. And I hadn't realized--. this is February 2021--. the amount of fencing and the number. of National Guardsmen around the Capitol.

And the reaction I had was a kind of embarrassment. that my daughter, for whom this would. be a formative political memory, was going to--. saw this as we are having to erect. barriers to keep Americans who are trying. to seize power at any cost. And this is just--. this should not be who we are. Not that it isn't, but it is who we should not be.

So we don't need to keep doing my therapy, but I appreciate it. JON STEWART: No, that's what we're here for today. JON MEACHAM: I appreciate that. JON STEWART: To heal Jon Meacham--. JON MEACHAM: To heal. JON STEWART: --who is at odds with his own career. I wonder, though, Jon, isn't Trump, in some respects, it's almost a throwback presidency. to a time of manifest destiny. Like there is-- there are things. about his presidency that are explicitly 19th century values.

There's a certain amount of Seward's Folly, and there's a certain amount of when America--. JON MEACHAM: It's the Mexican War, it's Polk. JON STEWART: Right. To be purposefully crass, it is a theory of power that he. expressed in his interview with Billy Bush, which is we're going to grab them by "the whatever.". And that is how America, in some respects, used to operate. And is Trump just explicitly expressing.

the implicit way that America has operated in the world? Are we overreacting based on his style. rather than what he is actually saying to do? Like when he says, "Hey, Greenland, underneath you are all these things that are very important. to us, so I hate to tell you this, we're going to have to take you over,". as opposed to the modern presidency, which would be, "Greenland, we would love to elevate. you democratically.". Like we would couch it in higher value and higher morals,

but ultimately the result being a slightly imperialistic. and colonial grab. Does that make sense? JON MEACHAM: It does. Would we invite them to a yellow pad conference, give them--. give them a free fleece, and then take their country? JON STEWART: Exactly right. JON MEACHAM: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's the Brookings approach, as opposed to the bully. Brookings versus bullying--. JON STEWART: That's right. JON MEACHAM: --is where we are.

Yes, is the answer. I'm all for vigorous and unconventional debate. And the Greenland thing was one of those moments where you're. sort of sitting there and you're thinking, this is crazy, but then you go, huh, I wonder, maybe we want Greenland? JON STEWART: Right. We've certainly tried to buy it in the past. JON MEACHAM: And it's not top of mind, I think, for a lot of people.

I don't think-- I live in Nashville. I don't think down on Broadway, they're singing. "Friends in Low Places" and thinking, "Greenland.". JON STEWART: Maybe not. But I'll tell you what, Chattanooga, they've. been about this for years. JON MEACHAM: Hey, don't--. don't mess with the home folks. JON STEWART: All right, fair enough. JON MEACHAM: Moon Pies and Coca-Cola. JON STEWART: Believe me, if the ingredients to make. Moon Pies were underneath Greenland, they'd be all about it, brother. They'd be down there. JON MEACHAM: So if he wants to bring up crazy stuff,

that's perfectly fine to me. I just don't want him to try to steal elections. I don't want him bullying judges. I don't want him appointing only the cast of FOX News. to hold ultimate power. And look, people like us, I mean, I think a lot of folks on the right. might say that the people on this screen right. now are one of the reasons Donald Trump is president. JON STEWART: Sure.

JON MEACHAM: I think that exaggerates, to say the least. But--. JON STEWART: I lay it mostly at my feet. I don't-- JON MEACHAM: Well, you should. JON STEWART: I think you're out clean, but I think it's mostly at my feet. JON MEACHAM: Well, let me tell you one more story. JON STEWART: Yeah. JON MEACHAM: So this is where--. and this is, since we're doing full therapy--. so I am famous--. not famous--. JON STEWART: You are famous. JON MEACHAM: No, no. On the right, there's a trope in that part of the world. JON STEWART: Yeah.

JON MEACHAM: I, on the night of the final presidential debate. in 2020-- this is another thing about my children. It was here in Nashville. It was that horrible one, remember where Trump. wouldn't stop talking, and--. JON STEWART: Right. JON MEACHAM: It was really embarrassing. And I took another child of mine down to the actual debate. I'd never been in a hall. JON STEWART: Do you guys not have, like, a Great Adventure down there? Is it always--. [LAUGHING]. Every time you every story about your children is like, "And I took them to a legislative session,

where they got to watch a certain. amount of gerrymandering that was occurring.". JON MEACHAM: Then we went to the subcommittee. JON STEWART: Are they ever like, "Dad, they make roller coasters. You can get on them.". JON MEACHAM: I didn't hear that. No, no, no, we don't do that. We're very, very serious here. And I came back, and I do my TV stuff from my basement,

so I was doing, say, commenting at say 11:00 PM. And it had really been a kind of, again, unsettling moment, where you had an incumbent president trying to bully. a former vice president. They were-- it just wasn't where we wanted to be, in my view. And it was one of these things where. President Trump had kept sort of talking.

about the mayor of Moscow. He was speaking in this kind of FOX News--. JON STEWART: That's right. Russia, Russia, Russia, and all that. Yeah. JON MEACHAM: --and different allusions that I didn't. fully understand. So I was sitting there talking, probably, to Brian Williams, and I said something to the following effect. "You know, Donald Trump basically appeals to the white. man's lizard brain," and it's this elemental thing, which is what I meant. Now, that was a gift wrapped to right-wing ecosystem,

because suddenly it became that I had called Trump. supporters lizard brains. Right? And it was a--. it was fairly-- there were threats. There was all that stuff. JON STEWART: Familiar with that. JON MEACHAM: Yeah, absolutely, you are. More so. So it was a lesson to me that you can't walk into it. The basic point I was trying to make. was that there is an elemental feel here.

Greenland is part of that. Right? It's like, all right, as you were just saying, we want to grab it. And I think, one of the things that worries me most, and tell me if you're seeing this in your world, I think this exhaustion, the resistance exhaustion. is a very real thing. JON STEWART: Oh. No, I think there's no question about that. I think-- you spoke of January 6 and 2020. being a demarcation point for you.

And I-- and I feel the same way. We can talk about degrees of expansionist rhetoric. or all kinds of other things. Or you know, Trump certainly isn't the first president. who has enemies lists, or who is doing things explicitly. through the influence of corporate power, any of these other things. They're all in there. The line of demarcation, for me, always within a democracy that has a peaceful transfer. of power is a democracy until there's no peace--. until the person decides, like, hey, you know what,

I think maybe I'm not leaving. Like that, to me, is the moment. And rather than that moment being disqualifying, that moment seemed to be, in some respects, a rallying point. We didn't get to do it this time. And then to see that, I guess, what you would say, devaluing of the Democratic process. be rewarded with a grander victory. than what it was, I think is the most dispiriting part of it. that I'm seeing.

But the second part of it, Jon, is-- and I'm curious. what you think about this--. every new media is going to create some kind of a change. in structure, a kind of seismic shift, whether it was radio, whether it was TV. I think they are better at this new media-- they are Kennedy. and television when it comes to this new media, as opposed to--. and I think the Democrats are Nixon, with the sweaty lip.

going, "I don't need makeup. I look great.". JON MEACHAM: Right, right, right. JON STEWART: I think that's part of it, when you talk about, I said lizard brain by mistake, and they took it. I think, A, let me, in our therapy session, excuse you because you can't outsmart social media. You cannot be so careful, I would urge you not to be, because it doesn't matter, your framing, it doesn't matter, a casual slip. They will find the route of attack,

and there will be a relentlessness to it. that you just have to accept as part of-- it. is the congestion pricing of having and operating. in artisan talk shittery, of being someone. who expresses opinions. JON MEACHAM: Yeah. JON STEWART: But it's not real, those have been weaponized. for that, but I don't think that the left has figured out, in any manner, how to make that work for them. JON MEACHAM: I think that's right. And it's one of the great mysteries.

Al Gore tried to fix this 20 years ago. JON STEWART: In what way? JON MEACHAM: Remember, he started a network. JON STEWART: Oh, yeah. JON MEACHAM: Remember, Current, you know? And it was-- and it's just an interesting thing. And it's, also, we shouldn't whine about it. Political power, as you say, often. accrues to those who master the means of communication. JON STEWART: Right, but also the message, I think--. and here's where I think it's a more difficult situation than I.

think people give it credit to-- it's not. just Trump as a bad actor or January 6. or any of those things. I think increasingly democracy is an analog system. in a digital world. And the chasm that, that creates. between the emotional catastrophizing of it's people. versus the kind of glacial pace of change, I do. think democracy itself has to find a way for government.

to be more agile and responsive. I have sympathy for those who believe that our government is. not responsive to the discomfort of its own people, in large measure. JON MEACHAM: Yes. And one of the first times that argument was made. was by Anne Morrow Lindbergh--. Charles Lindbergh-- Charles Lindbergh's--.

JON STEWART: You're taking us back to America first. JON MEACHAM: Yes. JON STEWART: I thought you were going. to say William Jennings Bryan. I had no idea you were going Lindbergh. JON MEACHAM: Anne Morrow Lindbergh. JON STEWART: You are a man of surprises, Meacham. JON MEACHAM: That's me, baby. The book was called The Wave of the Future, and it was a big bestseller-- JON STEWART: Really? JON MEACHAM: --in the '40s--. yep. The argument was that what was happening in Rome, Berlin, and Moscow was more suitable to a globalized world. that was shrinking, because of air power and technology--.

JON STEWART: Wow. JON MEACHAM: --and that a totalitarian system. might be more commensurate with the challenges. of a world that required quicker national action. And I've heard American presidents talk about this. in private, not that they're for it, but that they understand the impulse. And I think all of this, to me, democracy is fundamentally.

a moral question, and not in a Sunday school way, but it's how we are with each other. And I'm on the right side of the economic equation, and I would probably--. I'm certain I would have a different view. or different views if I were in a different place, or if I were a different person, that goes without saying. But the moments in American history where we have done.

things that we tend to commemorate. and say we want to emulate, have. been moments where we have decided that giving. was as important as taking. Right? So--. JON STEWART: You're going Better Angels on us. JON MEACHAM: I'm going Better Angels on us, but it's a 51/49 thing And it's not-- here you go. It's not Better Angels because it's.

just the right thing to do. So here's another story. JON STEWART: Where did you take your kids this time? We went to an essay contest. JON MEACHAM: This is going to be--. actually, get ready. JON STEWART: Oh, man. JON MEACHAM: This is about Greenwich Country. Day School in the 1930s. [LAUGHING]. So--. JON STEWART: You can't get more Episcopalian than that, sir. JON MEACHAM: George Herbert Walker Bush was the most. glamorous boy in the school.

JON STEWART: Yes, I'm sure. JON MEACHAM: He was about to go off to Andover, to boarding school. There was an obstacle course race at Greenwich. Country Day School. He always won it. The faculty came to him in his last year and said, "Would you let everybody else have a head start?". He said, "Sure.". Whatever that voice would be when you're 13. There was a boy in the school named Bennett McNichol. JON STEWART: Come on. JON MEACHAM: Get ready. JON STEWART: Not true. JON MEACHAM: Bennett McNichol was a fairly rotund lad.

He had not paid attention to Mrs. Obama's school lunch program. That's important to the story. JON STEWART: Right. But he will pay attention to RFK Jr.'s school lunch program. JON MEACHAM: Get ready. JON STEWART: All right. JON MEACHAM: Everybody goes off, then Bush goes. He's going through a series of barrels. on the ground, narrow barrels, in the obstacle course, and he pops out, and he looks to his right, and Bennett McNichol is stuck in the barrel. Can't get out. Bush reaches down, pulls Bennett out, says, "Come on, Bennett, we'll finish this together.".

All right? It's the kind of story that a presidential family. tells about their chieftain to say what a great person he was. JON STEWART: Sure. JON MEACHAM: But I didn't hear it from a Bush. I heard it from a McNichol. And so I took it to the old man. This was 10, 15 years ago. And I said, "Mr. President, I just heard this. story about Bennett McNichol.". The first thing he said was, "Bennett, he loved lunch.". I said, "No, no, no. That's not-- really not the point, sir.". He said, "Is he still big?" I said, "Not the point.".

I said, "Why did you take him out of the barrel?". And George Bush looked at me really as if I were crazy. And he said-- listen to what he said--. "I'd never been stuck in a barrel, but if I had been, I'd want somebody to pull me out.". It wasn't, I did it because it was the right thing to do. I did it because my Better Angels told me what to do. I did it because my mother read me the Bible. It was a practical act of covenant. He might need help, so he gave help.

JON STEWART: And that was the first point of light. JON MEACHAM: Yeah. There you. JON STEWART: The 1,000 points of light. So this is, in some respects, you're. looking at this as the American public has in some ways. voted for the more Hobbesian approach. JON MEACHAM: Bingo. JON STEWART: That the idea is, that's a lovely sentiment, but here's what you have to do in the real world. Leave heavier people in the barrels.

because otherwise, you won't--. JON MEACHAM: Got to keep moving. You got to go meet China-- you got to go beat China. Yeah. JON STEWART: Right. JON MEACHAM: China's over here. Leave poor Bennett. Yeah, that's exactly right. And this is where if the Hobbesian scholars write in, you respond. JON STEWART: Always. JON MEACHAM: But it's Hobbes versus Locke, right? JON STEWART: Right. JON MEACHAM: Locke was sort of, well, the state of nature is we all believe. in liberty and each other. Hobbes said, no, it's the war of all against all. That's the state of nature, and that the state of nature.

requires a strongman, a monarch, to run it. And that's absolutely where we are. JON STEWART: But in that, where we. kidding ourselves about Locke? I mean, in some respects, isn't what then H.W would represent. is a benevolent dictator as opposed to a more ruthless one? Because I guess that was my point originally,

are we kind of putting on blinders? And this brings us around more full circle to what we're. talking about, which is, are we now seeing our system. more clearly as it is? JON MEACHAM: Yeah. JON STEWART: Like even, let's talk about there's. this sort of idea, money controls our system. Well, now we're seeing it explicitly, and it's always sort of hidden and lobbying. groups and all that. Meanwhile, Elon Musk comes in and says, I'll give you $270 million, and that investment.

will pay off in $200 billion. Are we just seeing the dynamics of the system? Is it like those watches, if you remember, there's those old watches where you could turn them over, and you could see how it worked, and you could see the gears? Are we really just seeing the gears now. in a way that's more explicit? And were we kidding ourselves that this country. really was a country of pulling people out of barrels?

Is that too cynical? Is that-- I'm sensing your disappointment. JON MEACHAM: No, it's not. I'm thinking, because I want to--. I think this is--. this is why history has a moral utility. JON STEWART: OK. JON MEACHAM: I think that it's--. to be serious for a second--. it is absolutely rational to have. a cynical, fatalistic reaction to the fact.

that 49.9% of the voters chose to do this again. And all I would say is that I could make a pretty good case. that our better moments have always been. counterintuitive, countercultural. JON STEWART: Elaborate. JON MEACHAM: So Franklin Roosevelt, who redefines the relation of the state and the country,

eliminates poverty among the elderly with Social Security. Took people, gave them some dignity, gave them some work. Didn't really want to integrate war contracts, and rounded up the Japanese-Americans. JON STEWART: So Hobbes and Locke working together. JON MEACHAM: In one person. JON STEWART: Right. JON MEACHAM: So we've been doing. this since the third chapter of Genesis, right? And we are-- we're driven--.

we're driven by-- there was a piece of fruit. They said, don't take it. We said, no, no, I want that thing. JON STEWART: We had everything. And then one week in, they're like, you know what I would like? JON MEACHAM: Fruit. JON STEWART: Some kind of a crumble. What do you think, apple crumble? JON MEACHAM: We did it for Harry & David's. JON STEWART: Oh, for God's sake. JON MEACHAM: We did it for a box of pears. JON STEWART: What is wrong with us? JON MEACHAM: But therefore, the fact. that Harry Truman and Lyndon Johnson and George HW. Bush and Joe Biden, the fact that flawed, sinful, broken.

people were still able, in extremis, to do something. that broadened the mainstream, that put us. a little more in compliance with the Declaration, is not something--. the way you articulated a second ago. was a glass half empty.

I think that it's, I don't want to say it's half full, but it's a quarter full. And I think that's what makes history--. I think that's what is a source of hope, is that realizing that all these people in the past. were just as miserable as we are. Right? JON STEWART: Yes. JON MEACHAM: They were-- they had terrible days, and they had good days. And so I remember running across this,

if you go to the Lincoln Memorial, the great temple, it's otherworldly, it's divine, but then you go in, and it's the face of a human being. JON STEWART: Right. Still, a pretty large face. JON MEACHAM: Very large. That's the tension. JON STEWART: It's awe-inspiring. Even, I find that, that memorial is the one for me. that I think is most visceral in our pantheon, when.

you go down there. I've always found that--. I've never been much impressed by marble and limestone. and the structures. And, boy, when you walk into Treasury, you really go, oh, you're expecting a revolution, because like when you walk into Treasury, you really go, so where's Marie-Antoinette's office? JON MEACHAM: Yeah, right. JON STEWART: Because I'd like to go see her. Like it is gilded to the nines.

And you really do get a sense of if the people find out, they're going to have you melt down some of this gold leaf. JON MEACHAM: Yeah, the tumbrels. JON STEWART: That's exactly right. But there is something about the simplicity. of the Lincoln Memorial, the scale of it, that I have always--. and also because I view this Civil War always. as our darkest moment and in some respects, our most.

fortunate, to have had the North, the non-slave-owning. side, triumph. Because without that, I just don't know, you know, what this all would have been for, if that makes sense. JON MEACHAM: That's true. And it's another thing-- and again, on our therapeutic mode, now for you. Now for you. JON STEWART: I am optimistic, Jon. I don't want to give you the wrong impression. I remain optimistic. JON MEACHAM: Well, I'm dork Klonopin here,

and so I want to offer you something. So to me, the thing is that Americans never--. as President Biden said, literally, we never just wake up and say, hey, let's do the right thing. We didn't wake up in 1861 and say, you know what, human enslavement, let's. phase it out. This is bad. No, we killed, probably, 750,000. people in a country of, what, 20.

million people, which is huge. JON STEWART: Right. JON MEACHAM: You know, in the Gilded Age, the Musk's of the late 19th century didn't wake up and say, you know what, 40-hour workweek. JON STEWART: Right. Unionize. It was always born of violence, to a large extent. JON MEACHAM: Violence and the tension between conscience, and appetite, and the central, to your Hobbes.

point, the central thing as we head into this next. week, power. JON STEWART: Right. JON MEACHAM: And everybody wants it. That's from the third chapter of Genesis forward. The remarkable thing about this particular national experiment. is that we have managed to--. let's throw Montesquieu in. JON STEWART: How can you not?

JON MEACHAM: Exactly. We've managed to divide power in a way that has--. it has its frustrations, but it has. kept this rickety ship afloat. JON STEWART: Right. JON MEACHAM: And maybe, you know. what, I think the founders would have. been surprised that we lasted this long. with as little renovation. I really do. I mean, think about it. I mean, if you were like--. like we're only going to amend the thing--. JON STEWART: They would not have viewed what they wrote.

as so sacrosanct as Genesis. JON MEACHAM: Oh, my God, I love-- it's one of my things--. that's a different conversation-- but this idea, this idea that a bunch of newspaper. columns-- the Federalist Papers were like super tweets. I mean, they were like--. they were newspaper pieces. JON STEWART: Right. JON MEACHAM: And that's now Saint Paul? I mean, my goodness. JON STEWART: And isn't it interesting. that even today, we're kind of having the argument, you could almost make the point that the populist right.

are the anti-federalists. They're the ones-- they're the anti-federalists. They're much more in line with a kind of unitary executive. and moving along those lines. But you brought up something interesting, and I know you're on a tight schedule, and I want to honor your time, but I wanted to make sure. before you left, you said something. earlier that I thought was really interesting, which is--. JON MEACHAM: Thank God. JON STEWART: --this idea--. shut up-- this idea of power. And I wonder, can you make the same critique?

Because for President Biden, who is now leaving on, I think, a much more, obviously, melancholy note. than what you would have imagined, is sitting in that office. Power does not often cede itself. And I know that when you had written about the Cincinnatus. moment and him stepping away, do you. think that, that human flaw is, in some ways, what didn't allow.

the president to see, maybe, his own limitations. in that moment, and those around him, and that same dynamic that pushes us. towards these other changes and trying. to get closer to, as you said, the pact that we. made in the Declaration? Do you think that was what was at play in that moment?

JON MEACHAM: Yes. I think that the forces, the characteristics that drove. President Biden to the pinnacle of power. at a very late season in his life, in a Greek way, were the characteristics and the habits of heart and mind. and yes, appetite that propelled him into a campaign.

that self-evidently, he shouldn't have done. He's my friend. I help him when I can. I don't talk about our conversations. JON STEWART: Sure. JON MEACHAM: So I'm in a very weird position here, but I don't want--. I don't want to be dishonest, either. JON STEWART: Sure. I understand.

JON MEACHAM: So I think that, unquestionably, as history looks at President Biden, this remarkable 50-year public life, it is a period of tragic. lows and unexpected highs. He was left for dead politically, in presidential terms, again and again. And makes that last campaign in 2020 at what--.

it's hard to remember, sometimes, how dark that hour was. Presidential legacies always depend on what comes next, and so I think we're going to be debating this forever. But we'll-- let me put it this way. JON STEWART: If this is another kids trip, I don't want to hear it. [LAUGHING]. JON MEACHAM: No, no, no.

So presidents can't have it both ways, right? You can't say, in a country of 330 million people, I'm the one who should have the nuclear codes, and then say, well, I didn't quite see that coming. JON STEWART: Right. JON MEACHAM: Right? So to whom much is given, much is expected. And President Biden will for, the debate about his legacy.

and arguably, every time he's discussed. in historical terms, people will have to deal. with the following question. Was the skill set that produced 48 months of results, was that worth the price of the political confusion.

that unfolded in 2024? That's the question. JON STEWART: Right. right. Well, it's a question that I'm sure that Jon Meacham will be. answering, because Jon Meacham answers questions, and I don't want to-- listen, Jon, I don't want to give away too much of your hidden life. But when we first--. when we first came on to the program, and Jon was kind enough to join us on the podcast, he was reading just for pleasure. I'm going to-- I want to make this very clear. This was not a sign. This is not part of a long-standing work.

Jon, would you mind holding up? JON MEACHAM: Do you want to see it? JON STEWART: You want to-- yeah. Mamie Eisenhower, ladies and gentlemen. This is a man--. JON MEACHAM: Look at this. JON STEWART: --at home in his study. Give it-- he could be doing anything. Candy Crush. It could be anything. JON MEACHAM: It could be Candy Crush. JON STEWART: And in that moment, it is a book on Mamie Eisenhower. JON MEACHAM: Blurbed, by Clare Boothe Luce. JON STEWART: What? JON MEACHAM: I know. JON STEWART: Notoriously, very flinty. about putting the blurbs out.

JON MEACHAM: Very promiscuous in her blurbing. JON STEWART: May I ask what Clare's opinion was. of this Mamie Eisenhower, just to end this, to put a button on the entire conversation? JON MEACHAM: All right. This book is written by Alden Hatch. It was published in 1954. It was a big in '54. JON STEWART: Had to be. JON MEACHAM: Had to be. Alden Hatch is a personal friend of Mamie's, so it's. a hard-hitting. JON STEWART: He had access. JON MEACHAM: He had access.

This, by the way, is also, this is the complete and unabridged, so there may have been an abridged version. of Red Carpet for Mamie. [LAUGHING]. And the blurb from Congresswoman Luce is, "Mamie Eisenhower is beloved and admired by millions. of American women.". Apparently, the men didn't think about her. JON STEWART: The men didn't care for her. Yeah. JON MEACHAM: "Alden Hatch's book makes you understand why.".

That's good. JON STEWART: That is good. You know what? A good Luce quote. And that probably is what shot that to the top. And for those of you who haven't seen the movie, Ava Gardner was triumphant. JON MEACHAM: Well, I'm writing--. I'm doing a biography of Eisenhower--. JON STEWART: Oh, so fantastic. JON MEACHAM: --so I'm going to spend. the rest of the day worried about the Battle for Tunisia, if you--. JON STEWART: Can I tell you something, though? It is-- I so love the idea because Eisenhower today would. be considered a Communist. So I love the idea that it's coming out there,

that a man who warned against the military industrial. complex, and understood, and just wanted to build roads, like the idea that you're putting that out. there, delightful. Jon Meacham, I can't thank you enough for this therapy. session, for everything that you. brought in there, Jon Meacham. And There Was Light, you've got to read. A wonderful biography of Lincoln. Jon, thanks for joining us. JON MEACHAM: Thank you, Jon. [THEME MUSIC]. JON STEWART: Man, first of all, welcome back, guys.

Gillian, Lauren, Brittany, I hope. you guys all had a well-deserved break, and you enjoyed yourselves. But you know, Meacham comforts me. He's like, he's my Campbell's soup. Like there's something about the breadth of knowledge, the made-up names. Bennett McNichol, Clare Boothe Luce, come on, man. None of that shit is real. WOMEN 1: To begin a story with George Herbert Walker Bush was.

the most glamorous boy in the school, it's just-- it's so genteel. JON STEWART: He talks like people write. He just talks--. WOMEN 1: Like an Edith Wharton novel. JON STEWART: Yes. WOMEN 1: I really thought that barrel story was going to end. in, "And that was the inspiration. for No Child Left Behind," or something like that. JON STEWART: Right. He was going to-- he was going to tie it around. Although if I'm the McNichol family--. WOMEN 1: Oh, yes. JON STEWART: --and you do wonder like, as president, if Bennett McNichol just would sit there just stewing in his--.

You'd never-- I wonder if Bennett McNichol was just. like, "You didn't pull me out of that barrel. I got myself out of that barrel. You bastard.". WOMEN 2: Next week on The Weekly Show, we have Bennett. JON STEWART: But everything, it's. so funny when you realize this country was so steeped in all. the iconography of its ruling class of Protestants. and Episcopalian. And like, as Carlin would say, it's a big club, and you ain't in it. Like it was a country club, and that's.

the default setting that we all sort of work off of. And deviating from that, there is like a strange discomfort. in that. And it's funny when he talks about it, we're 60 years old. And I'm like, wait, I'm 62. I'm older than--. I'm older than America? That doesn't seem right. WOMEN 1: I mean, it is like, when he talked about. that, I was reminded after the election with just the fact. that the Democrats haven't won the white vote since 1964. And what happened after 1964?

The Civil Rights Act, so. WOMEN 3: Wow, that really underscores it. JON STEWART: Yeah, it really does. Boy, that's slightly--. WOMEN 1: Sobering thought. JON STEWART: --slightly sobering, slightly damning. You're just like, oh, yeah, all right. Well, now they got--. WOMEN 1: Correlation and causation, might check it out. JON STEWART: In the next election, I would not be surprised if the Democrats ran Bennett McNichol. I do believe, they're going to pull him out of that barrel. and put him on the ticket.

WOMEN 3: Someone from the Greenwich Country Day School, most likely. JON STEWART: Right. What I love about that story, too, is like where they were going. It was before he went to Andover, he was at the Greenwich Country Day School, and then he went to Andover, where he was the most. glamorous boy at Andover. And you're like, I think I remember. this as a Studs Terkel novel. But phenomenal. But happy to be back. It is going to be an interesting ride.

I am glad that he in some ways tempered my melancholy. and pessimism, and reminded me like, all right, all right, all right, we don't know what's going to happen. We've been here before. Now, it's time to move forward. So how are our viewers, are they listeners--. are they listeners, viewers on podcasts? I don't even know. WOMEN 2: We have both. JON STEWART: What do they got for us? Hopefully they've had a nice break, as well. WOMEN 2: Yeah, they gave us some really thoughtful. feedback over the break. JON STEWART: Yeah. Well, let me hear it. WOMEN 2: "Jon, I grew up watching you, and enjoy your program all the time.

JON STEWART: Uh-oh. WOMEN 2: "I wish you knew how crazy you have become. Not as bad as Colbert, but nonetheless, very bad.". JON STEWART: Very bad. You know what I love about all those? It's always like, "I've been a fan of yours my whole life. I love everything you do, but you've really made a turn.". And I'm like, you haven't watched a minute of me, because I'm the same dumb asshole I. have been since the start, unfortunately.

WOMEN 2: Oh, I've got more. JON STEWART: Yeah, what's the other? Is it all along that sort of, it's the new kind of--. WOMEN 2: There's a theme. JON STEWART: Yeah, the theme is always like, you were great, until now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. OK, OK, OK. WOMEN 1: You're smiling. You love this. JON STEWART: I mean, I'm used to it, so I--. It tickles me. WOMEN 2: "Jon Stewart is an arrogant, self-righteous asshole.". JON STEWART: But always--. by the way, again, there's been no growth.

It's just-- it's not new. All right. Go ahead. WOMEN 2: "Fuck you for helping push Biden out.". JON STEWART: Oh, wow. I'm still somewhat baffled by that idea, that actually Biden--. like even those closest to him now, sheepishly acknowledge what they should have acknowledged. a year and a half ago. And God bless them if they think,

oh, in this kind of revisionist mindset, that actually, oh, actually, his vigor and acuity. are as good as they've always been, and he would have trounced. Like, I just think that's sadly divorced from the reality. And I take no pleasure in that. I take no pleasure in saying it. He felt, to me--. I'll put this in comedic terms--. when a comedian comes on and the audience is.

worried about that comedian as they perform, that's the death of their performance. That's how I felt about, unfortunately, the president. And I don't know how you guys felt. WOMEN 1: Oh, yeah, it felt like a high wire act. that you were just waiting to see if he fell. WOMEN 2: Literally, by the way. JON STEWART: Yeah. Literally, right. I mean, in terms of--. it's tough. I mean, the debate was the apex of it, but I think prior to that, I mean, there was--.

and I think also, you have to remember, the bully pulpit requires vigorous pushback, especially in this modern media environment. And if you have to be--. if you're emotional and intellectual reserves have. to be managed and in some ways meted out, in just a certain amount of rationing, I'm sorry, that's--. you won't be able to do it.

And Trump, unfortunately, his resources for that. were endless. Yeah I completely the arrogant asshole part. Yeah, no, that's true. WOMEN 2: All of that feedback was from Jason Furman. Just so you know. JON STEWART: Damn economists. Why? Why? WOMEN 2: That's it. Everybody else loves you. JON STEWART: Yeah! Come on! Terrible. Terrible, terrible, terrible. Well, that's great. That's the kind of shit-- you know, look, it's important for us to hear it all out.

and kind of think about-- because there is-- it's funny. In all the kind of waterfall of criticism and attacks. that come, generally there will be something somewhat. constructive in some of it. And even though it's kind of a drag to sift through all of it, it is, in some ways, you are panning for gold in a river, a torrent of shitty criticism.

But sadly, you'll probably find a nugget or two where you're. like, yeah, I should do--. I should get better at that. WOMEN 2: Yeah, I mean, it's been. helpful to read the comments, honestly, because we've gotten. some great feedback, or suggestions on like topics, or people we should talk to. JON STEWART: Yeah. And Brittany, we should have--. let's think about some of those suggestions for topics. and people, because, look, it's going. to be hard to turn our attention off the fire hose. for these first, you know.

But there is a whole world out there. And speaking of which, by the way, we talked about California earlier. I just want to, quickly again, for anybody out there. who is considering, the California. Fire Foundation is phenomenal. So it's cafirefoundation.org, if anybody is interested in. I'm certainly-- it's not a secret. of all those organizations. So that's just-- that happens to be one. But we all, obviously, not to get.

colloquial, but we all have very good. friends and family out there that. are really going through it. So what's-- people want to get in touch with us, what is it, Brittany? WOMEN 2: Twitter, weeklyshowpod, Instagram, Threads, TikTok, BlueSky, we are @weeklyshowpodcast. JON STEWART: Taking off on BlueSky, man. WOMEN 2: Yeah, we actually really are. And you can like and subscribe our YouTube channel, The Weekly. Show with Jon Stewart. JON STEWART: Wonderful.

And as always, thank you, again, Lead Producer Lauren. Walker, Producer Brittany Mehmedovic, Video Editor. and Engineer Rob Vitolo--. with his baby, who is now-- how old is the baby now, Rob? 11?-- audio editor and engineer Nicole Boyce, researcher and Associate Producer Gillian Spear, Executive Producer Christopher Shannon, Executive Producer Katie Gray-- who, I must say, also. just had a beautiful baby. [CHEERING] Little Norah. Little Norah, so sweet. And we wish Katie and her husband,

Chris, just the absolute best. They're just the sweetest, most wonderful people. So, so excited for them as they go along on this journey. And that's that, man. We will see you guys next week. [THEME MUSIC]. The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart. is a Comedy Central podcast that's produced by Paramount. Audio and Busboy Productions.