Jon Stewart & Heather McGhee discuss Anti-DEI Policies and Trump’s Autocracy | The Weekly Show

JON STEWART: How tiring is it for Black women. to always have to pull even well-meaning. white dudes out of a hole? [THEME MUSIC]. Hello, everybody. Welcome to The Weekly Show program. My name is Jon Stewart. I am coming to you on--. well, today is Wednesday, April 16. You'll probably see this tomorrow, I guess. Thursday, April 17, because crack team. They turn this shit around on the double.

And believe me, it's no easy task, given the general audio and visual flubs. that are my podcasting style. Very frequently, just to give you people. a hint of the behind the scenes issues, I have to be told at the beginning of every episode, please try not to keep kicking your desk, because people then begin to think there are. mild earthquakes in your region, and it may be slightly disturbing. Speaking of mild earthquakes, folks, the interesting thing.

to me-- so how fucked up do you have. to do something that can turn our attention. from a global economic meltdown, self-caused, an economic punching ourselves in the dick of these tariffs? What would you have to do to divert the attention from that? And what you would have to do is. hold maybe one of the most chilling Oval Office meetings--.

I can't even begin to describe when the president of El. Salvador, Bukele, came and sat with President Trump, there is a gentleman from Maryland. that they say is a terrorist and is MS-13, but they've offered no compelling proof of such other. than I guess he has a Chicago Bulls hat.

Which, by the way, as a Knicks fan, I am not against sending people to prison camps. for being fans of the Chicago Bulls. That's not-- please don't misunderstand. I just want due process for these types of actions. But the thing that I found I think most chilling. was the enjoyment, the pleasure that they seemed. to take in flouting whatever due process.

or whatever safeguards have been put in place by a system. They are there to protect, to make sure. that bad people and good people are offered the same kinds. of-- that's the whole measure of a functioning society, a good society is that we are secure enough and strong enough. to provide for our most vulnerable,

that they are provided the same rights in regard. that everyone is. That's the point. And to see them gleeful about this individual's deportation. to a horrible, legendary prison in El Salvador, where. his family has not even been able to have. any contact with him, to see that, with no real proof.

that he's done anything other than be in the country, I guess, illegally. Which, if you think that should be the punishment for someone. seeking asylum, well, I don't know what the fuck to tell you. And to see the ghoul of ghouls, Stephen Miller, just get fucking hard talking about it, it's shocking. But in it, the buds of the resistance.

are starting to flourish. And where do they come from? Harvard. None of us want to take their side. But it's, yes, Harvard. Finally, an organization has stood up. and said, oh, you know, I actually. think this is so fucked that we're actually. going to risk huge financial penalties. to stand up on principle.

Thank God. You know, I was going to go to Harvard. A lot of people don't know that I was going to go to Harvard, but they had a test to get in. And yeah, so then I didn't end up going because it was--. because they had a test and it was really hard. So I went somewhere else. But this, you know, look, aid and comfort.

wherever we can get it. And I think it could be the beginnings. of other organizations finally realizing that there is no gain. in subservience to immorality. And let's hope. And our guest today, boy, she has written about the perils. of immorality and what it does to a society and the way. that it erodes it. And I'm so excited that I haven't spoken to her in, God,

it's got to be a year or so. So I'm delighted that she was able to join us today. So let's get to her. So we're going to bring in our esteemed guest. I'm so delighted to have an opportunity. to speak with her again. Ladies and gentlemen, Heather McGhee, author of The Sum of Us. Heather. HEATHER MCGHEE: Jon. JON STEWART: What the hell is happening?

HEATHER MCGHEE: Well, you know, I wrote this book, The Sum Of Us, and the central story. was when many white townspeople, officials. decided to drain their public pools. rather than integrate them. And I feel like that's what's happening to our entire country. right now. It is like we're all in the bottom of the drained pool. JON STEWART: Draining the pool. HEATHER MCGHEE: That's right. JON STEWART: It does feel like there. is an awful lot of cutting our noses to spite our faces.

And you know, there's so many different things to begin with. So let's start with, in that regard, the attack on American universities. Let's just start there and we'll move along. In order to keep people from teaching about slavery. or gender, they are willing to sacrifice American ingenuity. in research and education and the value of all that,

not just to the country, but to the world. Are you surprised at how easily they dismiss the contributions. of these institutions? HEATHER MCGHEE: That's a really good question. I am, because, you know, they're going. to get cancer too, right? JON STEWART: Well, they're going. to give it to us, Heather. That's for sure. HEATHER MCGHEE: That's for sure. That's for sure. But, you know, I mean, they are in vulnerable human bodies.

Maybe Elon Musk isn't because he's. mainlining some kind of, you know, asteroid juice or something. JON STEWART: Yes. HEATHER MCGHEE: But, you know, certainly the octogenarian. in the White House is in a vulnerable human body and his, you know, kids and family members, right? But more broadly, the Republican Party, they just. do not appreciate how much the foundation of their daily lives. depends on public goods, public goods that have been invested. in, you know, and catalyzed through research.

in universities, in partnerships. with private companies. And then, of course, things like, you know, making sure we have clean air. and water and a public health system and all of that. And so I am shocked at the shortsightedness, the meanness, the commitment to just dominance. Because that's what this is really about, right? It's using race and gender as the wedge, as the cudgel, as the sort of excuse. But what Donald Trump is trying to do.

is exert his control over every institution of civic life. And that is straight and simple out of the autocrat's playbook. And that's where we are right now as, you know, political scientists would say. JON STEWART: And it is a purposeful control, Heather. The thing that's interesting to me is it's not mere flattery. It is truly purposeful in the sense of realigning. what they believe to be the values that the country. should uphold.

And what I found so interesting, you know, I was listening to them. talk about manufacturing and bringing back. manufacturing, the resilience of it. I've yet to see somebody suggest that it isn't. a good idea to bring back some manufacturing. or to try and make the country more resilient. But they talk about it in terms of we've lost masculinity. And I keep thinking to myself, so wouldn't that be some type. of affirmative action? Are we DEIing male jobs?

Do they not understand? They're willing to pull trillions. of dollars out of the economy to re-advantage men. What? What's happening? HEATHER MCGHEE: Yes. I mean, let's be clear. Affirmative action was invented for white men, right? I mean, we had, for most of our history, until the mid-1960s, we had a system where every part of our policy structure,

our economic incentives, the rules, written and unwritten, were set up to allow white men to flourish. and everybody else, you know, to ask. for permission to merely, you know, have a job. and have a family. JON STEWART: It was the default setting, the default. setting of America. HEATHER MCGHEE: Yeah. That's right. And I mean that literally, right? I mean, in the book, I write about all the different. policies that explicitly say that, you know, you cannot get a mortgage if you. are in this neighborhood with a high Negro concentration.

You know? JON STEWART: Please run those through. Run through the explicit policies, because this. is such an important issue, Heather, because they keep. talking about manufacturing was hollowed out because of policy. So we have to--. and I hate to use the word reparations, but we have to repair the damage of these policies. So please explain specifically some. of those policies that excluded people from building equity.

HEATHER MCGHEE: So the Social Security. Act, which made it so that people. could retire with dignity. It excluded the two job categories that most. Black workers were in. This was a compromise between the Jim Crow delegation. to Congress in the New Deal. The domestic work and agricultural work. We had, at the beginning of the 20th century, a massive. investment in housing. Many of our houses and apartment buildings. and everything were built through this huge influx. in the first half of the 20th century in housing that.

working people could afford. And then on top of that, something really unprecedented, which was the idea that there should be mass home ownership. So the government made a system where we have this thing. called a mortgage, right? Where you could be a working person and just. pay off something over time and own property. That would be the basis for intergenerational. wealth, right? That was all government planning, and it was all based on the never substantiated assumption. that Black people would be too much of a credit risk.

And so literally, like the progressive FDR. federal government drew maps of the entire country. and surveyed them down to the block. level for their racial and ethnic character, and said the areas with a high Negro concentration, for example, do not lend in these areas. Levittown, something I think you're familiar with, right? Other-- right, it's just one example. JON STEWART: [GROANS]. HEATHER MCGHEE: What is that sound? JON STEWART: Heather, it's just because that's the one--.

you know, and I talk to--. O'Reilly's whole, like, persona comes out of that, like, I'm from Levittown. Hardscrabble people that pulled themselves up. by their bootstraps and did the values. And you're like, right. And you know Black people weren't. allowed to live there, right? Yeah. HEATHER MCGHEE: Right, right. JON STEWART: Those GI Bill homes. that were built and paid for by the government excluded. specifically Black people. HEATHER MCGHEE: Yes. The language in the deed said, these can be sold. or leased only to people, quote, "wholly. of the Caucasian race.".

No octoroons may apply. JON STEWART: Can I tell you something? And you got to test. You got to do the pinprick and you got to make sure. HEATHER MCGHEE: That's right. That's right. Right, so that's example. And housing, of course, is very significant because that's. how we build our wealth. That's how we have intergenerational wealth. That's a lot of why today, if you are a Black college. graduate, you have less wealth on average than. a white high school dropout. JON STEWART: Say that again. HEATHER MCGHEE: If you are a Black college graduate, you may have a higher income, you may have a better job.

Right? You've done all the things. You've gone to college. But you will have less household wealth, like your assets, things to rely on. Your home equity, stocks and bonds, et cetera, than a white high school dropout. And that's entirely history, history. showing up in your wallet. But, you know, this administration literally. banned the word historically from being eligible. for research grants, right?

They're actually canceling history so that we don't know. that and we return to a privileged based economy. so that they and people like them can. be the only ones to thrive. And my point overall is that that is not good for. anyone, right? We need diversity in order to thrive. We need economic, racial, gender diversity. as a way to innovate. And we are simply--.

if everything they're trying to do. goes through and is maintained by the Supreme Court, I think that our country will economically--. not just morally, but economically be shoved. back a generation or two. We will lose our place at the top of the economic pyramid. JON STEWART: So this is the argument, Heather, that I think is so important, which is to separate it, to separate the moral component from the practical and.

pragmatic component, because I think. so often the morality of it is centered at the argument. And people forget that this is also a practical argument. So here's their counter. We need to live in a meritocracy and to advantage--. you know, OK, there was slavery and Jim Crow. and you weren't allowed to buy houses. and you were excluded from certain places.

So we're going to give you two points. on your college application. So we're good, right? And then the other people went, two points. on a college application? That's so unfair. That's not America. The argument against it is always, oh, you want to reach out and bring in people of color. to be pilots? Oh, don't they have to learn how to fly planes? As though it's only race or gender or that that's what. diversity is.

How do you talk about that with people who believe that? And how do you not help them understand that opening up. these supply lines that have not been used. is actually increasing competition? HEATHER MCGHEE: Yeah. Well, I think there's two ways to do it. One is where you simply can remind folks. that a system where only white men were allowed.

to hold top positions-- or not even top positions. You know? Like, you know, a machinist, a manufacturer, right? Like, you know, a pilot, a driver, et cetera. was itself a form of affirmative action. that diminished competition. If you didn't have to compete with anyone but anyone who. looked like you, and, you know, increasingly now.

the majority of the country is not. eligible for various reasons for these jobs. You know, that was its own kind of affirmative action. And then we saw once we unleashed the power. of competition, we saw our country's. innovation and prosperity really, really explode. And I think that that's one way to talk about it in terms. of competition, right? People should have to compete.

But the other thing that I would say. is that, like it took a lot of work. to hold back women and people of color and immigrants. who come to this country from non-white parts of the world. And that's because, like, there is. a ton of grit and excellence. And, you know, Black women have the highest average degrees. right now in the country, right? Immigrants create jobs twice as often.

I don't know that it's really about being worried that things. are going to get worse if they're. competing with these other groups, but rather. perhaps a fear of losing. And that's just real talk. JON STEWART: Like a resource guarding, the sense of--. HEATHER MCGHEE: Yeah. Yeah. It's like hoarding resources. I'm saying basically maybe the fear is not. that the Black pilot will be, you know, worse, but rather that maybe the Black pilot will be better, right?

That someone who has overcome all of these challenges--. JON STEWART: Certainly not how they're framing it. I mean, do you remember the plane goes down just recently, right after the inauguration in DC, and the first thing they. did is come out and say, the reason this happened. is because of our DEI policies. For God's sakes, there might have. been a lesbian air traffic controller, or there might have been--. HEATHER MCGHEE: Jon, that's just message discipline. It's just message discipline, right?

Because what it was a head fake away from the cuts. that they were making to the FAA. JON STEWART: So you think cynical. Purely cynical. This is-- HEATHER MCGHEE: Oh, absolutely. JON STEWART: They don't believe any of this shit. HEATHER MCGHEE: Well, some people do. Some of them do. Right? Some of them are believers. But again, everything we believe. comes from a story we've been told. So if you live in the right wing, you know, sort of message ecosystem, if you're on Elon Musk's Twitter, which. used to be this great, you know, platform for the world.

and is now like a, you know, white supremacist. message board, then yes. Right? That's what you've been taught to believe, but it's not true. We still live in a privilege based society. I mean, and look at, you know, for example, the law firms. So the administration had these shakedown executive orders. to all of the top law firms, which were retribution. and trying to get hundreds of millions. of dollars of free work for right wing causes.

And, you know, for Trump and, you know, et cetera. And the attack was cancel your DEI programs because they're. illegal and they've run amok. I want to be clear that in all of the law. firms in the country, there are only less than 3%. of the partners are Black, right? There are about 50% of the law firms, the big law firms,

the ones with like a lot of lawyers. and that are really elite. 50% of them have no Black partners, right? And so what we're saying is this. is like still an industry where white men are dominating. And yet the administration is using the excuse that diversity. has run amok to literally just shake them down. for money for their causes. It's all about the money. JON STEWART: Yeah, they got, I think, $900 million. of pro bono.

Which reminds me of like, it's like a lifetime. supply of Turtle Wax. Like, who's going to use 900--. HEATHER MCGHEE: Oh, they could do it very-- well, first of all, lawyer's hours are very expensive. JON STEWART: Maybe I haven't had a lawyer in a while. HEATHER MCGHEE: So this is trying to rig the marketplace. of ideas, right? JON STEWART: Right. HEATHER MCGHEE: You know, lawyers, very educated people. who know the Constitution, who know the law are not flocking. to defend these crackpot legal theories, and so they literally have to force them to do it. Right? It's the same thing with the attacks on universities, right?

In the marketplace of ideas, of rigorous scholarship, what. the administration is trying to do with these shakedown. executive orders is say you have to hire scholars who. are conservative, not you have to hire people. based on their identity. Right? But you have to hire scholars who are conservative. And, you know, I mean, these are institutions where, sure, there may be a plurality of people who have. liberal thoughts and ideas.

JON STEWART: Right. HEATHER MCGHEE: But it's also, they're also--. JON STEWART: Not necessarily activists. They may-- you know, there's a difference. also between ideologue activists and people. that just lean left. Right. Read a lot and people that listen to the radio on NPR. HEATHER MCGHEE: People that learn history. JON STEWART: Right. HEATHER MCGHEE: Right? So what they're saying is, you know, for example, the attacks. on these Ivy League institutions. that are shakedowns for money and for rigging. our whole civil society not only to a conservative bent.

to say, you know, put the thumb on the scale and say, if any department doesn't have enough conservatives, from the White House with a stroke of a pen, I have the power to change that. JON STEWART: Or I will remove all of your research grants. for pediatric cancer. HEATHER MCGHEE: I mean, truly. It is so disgusting. It is so nefarious. But you know, I just spent the last two. days with a scholar of autocrats.

who studies this stuff. And they are from Harvard. JON STEWART: Harvard? HEATHER MCGHEE: I actually won't name. them because of the attacks. JON STEWART: Why are you hanging out. with these elites, Heather? Why the elites? HEATHER MCGHEE: Well, I mean, listen, if anybody else has studied autocracies. from across the world, I'd be very--. JON STEWART: Happy to talk to them. HEATHER MCGHEE: Right. And this is the playbook, right? It is to go at the parts of society that have the power.

to mount a defense, to total control, and to bring them to heel. And I think that's the piece that is scarier than anything. else about what's going on right now. is that we, in many ways, have moved into what. political scientists would call right. now a competitive autocracy, meaning there. are still elections, right? It's not like a military coup. But it is an autocracy in the sense. that we have someone in office who.

wants to rule by signature--. JON STEWART: By the way, has signed no legislation. HEATHER MCGHEE: Right. JON STEWART: Zero. HEATHER MCGHEE: It's insane. He's got the Congress in his party. They will do-- they are lickspittles, right? And yet, he still wants the feeling. of being able to just sign a pen. and change American law firms and change. American universities and change American media.

and cut hundreds of billions of dollars, fire tens of thousands. of public servants, flouting the separation of powers. And ultimately, that's about his control. It's even the tariffs, Jon, really, I think, are-- because there's something-- you can have. an industrial policy, right? In fact, Joe Biden's industrial policies brought. manufacturing back to the highest level. it had been since the 1970s. But the chaotic form of these punitive tariffs.

is really just about him exerting maximum control. over companies, industries, and world leaders. and then asking them to beg for permission to be, you know, accepted from these tariffs. JON STEWART: I remember even right afterwards he. was at some dinner, and it was so. stunning to see all the chaos that had been created. And he's up there in his tuxedo going, they're all kissing my ass. All these countries, they're kissing my ass.

As though, you know, that was the goal, is to make sure that they paid tribute. Has it surprised you that corporate entities. and educational entities and law firms. have been so supplicant, have been so subservient, have done this so easily? It was when Harvard said, yeah, we're not going to do that, and you thought, oh my God, I'm going to have.

to take the side of Harvard. What? But when they did that, you thought, well, is that only because they have an endowment? Or is this the beginning of a bulkhead? Were you shocked by how quickly, you know, Apple and Amazon and-- they were all at the inauguration. Everybody bent the knee. HEATHER MCGHEE: So I was less shocked. that some of the world's richest men. were willing to stand behind someone who had made it.

very clear that if you weren't behind him, you were in his sights. Right? JON STEWART: Right. HEATHER MCGHEE: They have so much to gain by cozying. up to him and flattering him. And of course, let's be very clear, everyone at that income and wealth level. has to gain from the tax cuts that are barreling their way. through Washington, which is the number one goal, obviously. of, you know, Elon Musk. You know, it's about clearing the way of these pesky, you know, vaccines for children in Africa and, you know,

lead pipe mitigation in your neighborhood. JON STEWART: Removing regulation, removing anything. that would stand in their way. HEATHER MCGHEE: Exactly. In order to justify massive tax cuts. That's right. So it's about the tax cut. It's about the fact that he is very easily flattered. And so, for example, smartphones. Whoops, smartphones are all of a sudden, you know, exempt from the tariffs. So that made sense to me. What didn't make sense was the law firms. The law firms didn't make sense. The law firms didn't make sense because first of all,

the executive order, the shakedown executive order. was so illegal on its face. And that is their job to determine that. Right? So they didn't wait for the litigation to go through. It was shocking to me. And of course, there are some law firms that have signed on. to, you know, to litigation, to take it. all the way to the Supreme Court. to get those shakedown EOs nullified. JON STEWART: What was the shakedown, Heather? Because I still don't quite understand what.

he was threatening or why. I know he was going to say, oh, I'll strip your security. or I'll make it harder for you to get clients. But the why of it is--. what is he saying they've done? HEATHER MCGHEE: Very good point. He's saying that one or more of their partners--. there's a few things. Basically, they've defied him. So one or more--. one or more of their partners or people. who work there at some point was part. of a litigation against him. So you have people who were US attorneys who were part.

of litigation against him. JON STEWART: And is he suggesting. that that is an illegal act that they undertook? HEATHER MCGHEE: Absolutely, because he's the law. JON STEWART: Ah. You just get-- that did not go well with my spine right. there, Heather. HEATHER MCGHEE: Jon, you got to know what time it is. Can I just say something about, like, why it's easy for me. to say that and accept it, and it's kind of harder, I think, for many people in this country to wrap their minds around what. time it is right now? JON STEWART: Please. HEATHER MCGHEE: So we've always been taught, I think,

that, like, there's such a thing. as autocrats and dictators, and we. go to war against them, right? Those are in foreign countries that don't believe. in democracy like we do. But Black people in America lived under autocracy. for most of our history. Black people in the Deep South, in many places, live under a version of autocracy today. And so a world where there is a law that is the effective law.

that is used and enforced through violence, the threat of violence, being willing to take resources. away from a community. JON STEWART: Right. Economic damage. HEATHER MCGHEE: Exactly. That's what has been done to Black America. That's Jim Crow America, right? And so we're not as shocked that this. would happen in America. And I think it's really important for everyone.

in this country to know what time it is, to learn from the resistance and defiance movements. all around the world, but also the movements that end the Jim. Crow autocracy in the United States, to learn how to be vigilant, to not be surprised, to know that there's strength in numbers, to know that if you give an inch when you don't have to, they will take everything. And to know what their vision is, the kind of world.

that they would like to see. And it is a world where a law firm that has been around. for 120 years has, you know, represented conservatives, corporations, you know, civil rights lawyers, you know, the whole thing can be. brought to heel for essentially, you know, A, having a DEI program. Right? That diversity program. That is in the executive orders usually. But as I said, you know, it's not doing much. It's not like it's been taken over by, you know, communist,

you know, trans Black people, because these law. firms are still mostly white men at the top. As I said, you know, just a few percent of Black lawyers. are at partners at these big law firms. But most importantly, for violating the law, which is, do not cross Trump. And then, of course, strategically, if I want to be a dictator, first, destroy the lawyers. and bring them to your side.

Second, capture the media. Third, disrupt the universities. JON STEWART: Yes. Who's going to be there to file the lawsuits, right? HEATHER MCGHEE: Right. Exactly. So you need-- and to intimidate the judiciary as well. Right? When the judges, who are in the same class as these big law. firm partners, are looking around and seeing the people. who usually come, you know, and go to trial in front of them, yielding without even putting up a fight, that influences the judiciary.

So this is all about a sectoral approach to bring. the entire society under heel. And I know for some people hearing this, it may sound like oh, you know, she's crazy. She's saying that, you know--. her hair is on fire, right? Like, she's exaggerating. You know, she's exaggerating what's going on. But I really want to implore you to just think. about sort of through line across all. of what Trump is doing. There is no-- you know, they didn't break the law.

They broke the law that says, you know, Donald Trump is the law. JON STEWART: And they used the law, Heather. I think what's so interesting in this moment is how thorough. they've been in using the law and the history. of this country. I feel like one of the mechanisms. that they utilize is catastrophizing. the moment that we were in to justify emergency powers.

And then they're going through and they're saying, let's use the Alien Enemies Act from this era. Let's use-- in 1950s, there was an emergency. tariff construction use that was used for that. Let's use what Roosevelt might have used in the '40s. So they've actually, they've gone through. and they have built their own justification.

and infrastructure through the history of this country. They have used it historically. HEATHER MCGHEE: Yes. Now, obviously not Donald Trump, who doesn't read. JON STEWART: No. HEATHER MCGHEE: But--. JON STEWART: How fun was it watching him go, I'm going to use the illegal aliens--. you know, like, somebody-- you just want to say, like, who told him about that? HEATHER MCGHEE: So obviously, there's an entire right wing, you know, infrastructure. JON STEWART: Right. HEATHER MCGHEE: Folks who put out things like Project 2025.

who have been looking for all the different moments. in our history when the executive, the White House, had the most power possible. JON STEWART: Right. Generally under emergency powers. HEATHER MCGHEE: Yes, that's right. And what is the emergency today? The emergency today is that there's too much diversity. There are too many immigrants of color. It's a racial emergency. Let's just be real. And so this is why it really is drained pool politics. It's saying that there's too much diversity in our country.

and so we have to actually just drain the pool. and get rid of government. JON STEWART: It's a reset. HEATHER MCGHEE: It's a reset, right? But of course, it's a reset that is going to cost people. white, Black, and Brown, native born and immigrant, their jobs. He's destroying tens of thousands of American jobs just. himself, much less the knock-on effects of things like tariffs. and the tax cuts that are skewed to the wealthy while.

actually raising them by about $1,000. for middle class families. It's costing American lives. We are going to see kids poisoned. by lead because of the cuts, you know, to the EPA. JON STEWART: Kids dying of measles. HEATHER MCGHEE: Kids dying of measles. People dying of diseases that were research funded by, in part by the American taxpayer, has already been frozen, curtailed,

threatened because he wants power over the institutions, the universities that partner with them, or because they've said something like female. in the grant proposal. JON STEWART: Right. HEATHER MCGHEE: Sorry. That's who gets breast cancer. Like, I don't-- you know? I mean, I'm sure--. JON STEWART: But that's what's been so wild to watch. is the way that they have manipulated what.

some of this research entails to make it seem as though it's. whimsical diversity porn, that it's literally just. universities going, oh, we've got all this money, but we have to give out at least half of it. to wheelchair bound lesbians. Like, they're making it seem utterly. arbitrary and based on guilt. I mean, if that's a--.

HEATHER MCGHEE: Yes, there are a number of grants that. are studying, you know, lung cancer in minority populations, in rural populations, in underserved. I'm, like, naming words that are disqualifying now. Right? And the only justification for that being something that you. can cancel without any kind of, you know, feeling or sentiment or sense about it. is if you just totally dehumanized those populations.

Because we get lung cancer, too. And if you're in a country in a society that is about 50/50. people of color and white, it should matter if people. are dying and getting sick because of diseases. that can be cured. It's really, the dehumanization is what happens first. And then of course, you're right, Jon, that it is just. an excuse to exert control.

JON STEWART: And I think they've done something even. more insidious, which is to suggest. as common sense the idea that if a Black person or a woman. or anyone who is not of the default setting. has a position that it is a position. that has been gained through the manipulation of a system. I have a friend whose daughter is brilliant,

you know, Black woman, young, just getting out of college. And what he was saying is she's summa cum laude. and you know what the fucked up thing is? No one's going to believe it. The way that he set it up is she is only there by the grace. of liberal guilt. She is only there. because the lack of meritocracy put her in that position.

and elevated her and gave her the thing. And it was so clearly upsetting to him, the idea. that her achievements would now be cast in that type. of negative light. And I want to see if we can sort of--. their objections to that is somehow they. keep saying we want to get back to that meritocracy. But when was that?

Like, what are they talking about? And how do you address that idea. that these people who are achieving things, in spite of their circumstances, are now being viewed suspiciously? HEATHER MCGHEE: I think it's really important. You know, I was touched by the sort of anguish, you know, that you cited from your friend. My thought when you were saying it. was, they'll think that until she opens her mouth, right?

There is a way in which, as a Black woman. myself, who, you know, was a nerd and skipped a grade. and, you know, went to schools that nobody like me should have. been able to go to and thrive and graduate. at the top of my class. I associate myself with the Black women who did the math. to return the moon landing, to the Black people who,

despite literally being not allowed. to hold any positions of power in society. I'm talking about, you know, the first three. quarters of the 20th century. You know? Invented the furnace, the gas mask, you know, the stoplight, the filament in the light bulb, the satellite, the GPS technology. A Black woman, right? Like all of these things that--. JON STEWART: Are you serious? Because that is the only thing--. it is the only thing that allows me to get places now, even reasonably on time is--.

I need to thank whoever that is. I need to write them a thank you note. HEATHER MCGHEE: You do. You do. Right? I mean, I'm just saying, like, there is this counter. And I know--. I'm very happy to, you know, argue about the meritocracy. But in some ways, I just want to say that there. is the other truth that has to be, at least for people who are. the targets of this kind of dehumanization.

and diminishment, a real knowledge that is at your core, that the entire society had to be structured to hold you back, or else you would fly. JON STEWART: Right. HEATHER MCGHEE: Like, you just have to know that, you know, as I said at the beginning, there was a system that used. every part of society to prop up one identity. and to oppress and hold back everybody else.

And that when we are given an equal playing field, we fly. JON STEWART: Boy, Heather, you know, look at what's happened now in education. So years ago they thought, well, women are being held back. So let's encourage them. Let's encourage them to get into STEM. Let's encourage them to get education. And now the big talk is, hey, what about boys? They're getting their asses kicked by women. As though women have been so advantaged.

now that boys can't compete on that level, that it's too skewed. It's so interesting to me to watch them say. So we must repair the damage that's been done by equality. HEATHER MCGHEE: Yeah. That's right. JON STEWART: I mean, that is sort of what--. HEATHER MCGHEE: That's what they're saying. JON STEWART: Right. HEATHER MCGHEE: That's what they're saying. JON STEWART: And so they have to take-- it's such. an interesting thing to watch. But it also gets to the point that somehow. there are metrics to a meritocracy.

that are not subjective. That somehow hiring in the good old days was not subjective. HEATHER MCGHEE: Right. JON STEWART: That it was, no, it's. based completely on qualifications, which. everyone knows is nonsense. College applications are subjective. Hiring is subjective. Everything is, other than things that are literally math. Like, if you watch a dude score 35 points a game. and get 11 rebounds, that is unassailably. objective measures.

But as far as who you're going to hire, of course it is. Oh, he was recommended by Jonny, and Jonny's a good dude, so I'm going to get him. Or I talked to him and I feel comfortable with him. HEATHER MCGHEE: I feel comfortable. The like me bias. So what is diversity, equity, and inclusion in the workplace? It has been, and ever since, you know, the mid-1960s with the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and then. the '70s with the feminist movement, brought in women and gender into this,

an idea that we as a society and workplaces individually--. and the research has continuously borne this out. We do better when you really have the best and brightest, and that means everyone in your society. is able to come through the door and participate. You know, it's like if you have a problem, right? You have a problem that you're sitting with. and you have only one, you know,

identity, one group of people with the same general set. of background and assumptions and where they come from. and the way they see the world. You can only see part of it. Right? There's this whole other part of it. that someone who came from a different set of circumstances. would be able to see, and together, you solve the whole. And that has what has been borne out. Literally more diverse juries remember more facts. More diverse teams come up with breakthroughs and problem.

solving faster. More diverse kids-- more diversity in the classroom. creates better educational outcomes, not just for the kids of color, but for the white kids, too, right? We have reams and reams of research about this. And yet this formula, which I think is America's superpower. and the idea that we could keep optimizing for that,

keep making workplaces more diverse, which, by the way, is popular with over 3/4 of the American public, the idea. of diversity in workplaces. It's actually common sense. JON STEWART: And by the way, too, diversity. is also, as you say that, race, gender, but also veterans or people that might have a disability. Like, there's so many different metrics to that. HEATHER MCGHEE: I mean, this anti-diversity regime is not.

stopping with affirmative action in schools, which already the Supreme Court did away with. It's coming for the breastfeeding rooms. in your offices, for veterans hiring programs, for--. you know? It's coming for all of the systems. that make the world more inclusive and accommodating. And so often this is the way drain. pool politics goes, right? It's like it's supposed to be an attack on the least of us.

But in the end, it's an attack on almost all of us. JON STEWART: You know, Heather, I want to ask you, were there excesses in the DEI? Because everything that you're saying, and my experience with it as well, has been that even to the point of if I'm putting together. a writers' room, forget about, you know, women or people of color, all that. Like, I need a couple of people who are really good short joke. writers, but I need a couple people who are more absurdist. thinkers, or a couple people that are more-- like, you.

design something so that everyone. doesn't bring the same skill, because then you have no reach. You aren't able to--. so what happened that suddenly made this so the driving force, in many respects, of an utter transformation. of American politics? Was it the seminar? Is it #MeToo?

Is it the idea that I can't even look at a woman? You know, is it the idea that, oh, now I have to think about if someone in my office. might be gay, so I can't do the voice I like doing? Like, what drives this? Because I've always looked at DEI programs as what. the hierarchical system allows you to do. Rather than attack what are the real issues of communities. left behind and do the real work of building equity. in places that had equity removed by literal legislation,

they make sure that there's somebody who has an office that. says diversity, and they make you sit through an hour. once a year. Like, what is going on? HEATHER MCGHEE: So I want to say two things. One, Trump got 49 and some change percent of the people. who voted. Right? And 89 million people didn't vote. Right? And even of the people who voted for Trump, the idea of canceling diversity programs across the country. is not overwhelmingly popular.

So this is a faction using this as an excuse. Now, I'm not saying that there aren't way more people who are, you know, sort of susceptible to the anti-diversity arguments. than I feel comfortable with. JON STEWART: And suspicious of diversity, really suspicious. of it, of those programs. HEATHER MCGHEE: So one, I want to just like. put it in its place, right? We still have polling that shows that diversity. and diversity programs are largely popular in the.

country still. But you had social movements, you. know, the movement for Black lives, Black Lives Matter, # #MeToo, the movement for marriage equality. and for inclusion on gender and sexual identity that, in a very short period of time, signaled to, you know, a lot of influential people that they needed to hurry. up and get on this train. And so I do think you did see people who were not true.

believers in the idea. I'm talking about, like, C-suite executives who said, oh, boy. George Floyd was murdered. The whole world's attention went to it. I got to put out a statement. I got to, you know, bring that person in the diversity office. that I haven't ever wanted to invite to a meeting. in and ask them what to do really quickly. And just as quickly, as soon as Trump was elected, they were willing to drop it. Right? So that's why, you know, all the Black people I know.

haven't been to Target, right, since they dropped their DEI. And, you know, and we've got these like economic boycotts. of Target that are happening, whereas, you know, Costco and Delta have stood fast with their DEI programs. and they're doing better financially. So there has been a, like, it was a fad of some, you know, sectors of our society, and they. dropped it just as quickly.

And that's a shame, because I do think the companies that. have really meaningfully seen it as a part of their growth. model before George Floyd was murdered by a cop, you know, and still after Donald Trump. won 49% of the popular vote, those. are the companies that are going to continue. to thrive in a diverse--. JON STEWART: The ones who weren't being performative. HEATHER MCGHEE: That's right. JON STEWART: Right. Do you think, Heather, that, is it a misunderstanding of what.

diversity initiatives mean? Is it a poor design of those programs within the workforce? You know? What they would say is it demonizes white people. It makes them all seem guilty of something. that they had nothing to do with. It's giving jobs out. If I'm up for a job and a person of color. is up for a job, I know I won't get. it because the playing field is now tilted the other way. You know?

That is the prevailing wisdom of the backlash. HEATHER MCGHEE: Right. And still, big law firms own--. 50% of them have no Black partners. But every Black person who has ever gone up for a job. is going to get it. OK. JON STEWART: And in the NFL, they have to interview. at least one Black person. They just have to. HEATHER MCGHEE: Exactly. That's why there are so many Black head coaches. JON STEWART: Yes. HEATHER MCGHEE: The thing I'm joking about, obviously, is that the bias still persists. And so this idea that a white man can't get a shot. anymore is just not borne out by the numbers,

and I think it's really important to remember that, because you have to state and remember. the discrimination that exists, the like me bias. that people who are in power. And most of them are white men. That bias exists. The bias that comes from social distance. Like, I'm just not familiar with that person's jokes, their hairstyle, the school they went to, the references they make. It makes me uncomfortable. I'm a little bit scared of these people.

that I didn't grow up, you know, barbecuing with. and that I, you know, lived in a very segregated neighborhood. and went to a very effectively segregated school. or private school to keep away from people like that. And now all of a sudden, you know, I'm looking at their application, and lo. and behold, research shows that if people on an application. for a job have a Black name, a Black sounding name, they are much less likely to get a callback,

even if they have a ton of degrees and experience, than someone with a white sounding name. with less of that, right? So if you don't recognize the bias still exists, it can feel arbitrary. Like, why should a Black person get a job? You know? But it's important to remember that. It's important that we still have a lot of ways. to go in this country for anything. approaching full equality, and that full equality. will be great for everyone in the country. JON STEWART: Do you have at hand the idea of, here's some DEI programs that I think have been really. effective that have done it the right way, that haven't used.

sort of pro forma shame or, you know, sort of just. finger wagging and are designed in a way. to effectuate the proper change without creating. that resentment? HEATHER MCGHEE: Yeah. I mean, I think there's two things. One, I think that, you know, any kind of change, being made aware of something that you. were, like, willfully lied to about can be uncomfortable. But of course, discomfort is where learning happens. That's what, you know, somebody who's a science teacher.

would say, right? You know, it's uncomfortable to be learning something new, and that should be OK. I just want to say that from the outset. But I also think that there is a way in which, because there's so far to go, because, you know, when I first wrote my book-- so that was you know, leading up to 2020. 10% of high school seniors could. accurately say that slavery was a primary cause. of the Civil War. JON STEWART: How many?

HEATHER MCGHEE: 10%. JON STEWART: Come on, Heather. HEATHER MCGHEE: I know. Come on, right? JON STEWART: Come on. HEATHER MCGHEE: So we have so far to go. So imagine that 90% of high school seniors, they graduate, they go into an office, you know, and someone at the Black History Month thing. is saying something and they're like, what are you talking? JON STEWART: What do they even say it was? HEATHER MCGHEE: States rights. States rights. Their rights to be states. JON STEWART: Even though it's--. was it South Carolina, I think specifically. in their declaration of war was like, slavery's got to be here.

or we're leaving. HEATHER MCGHEE: Exactly. JON STEWART: Wow. HEATHER MCGHEE: Right? So that's just an example to show how the mass consciousness. raising that happened after 2020 was, you know, going from 0 to 100 very quickly for a lot. of people who were lied to. I do not blame people for going to schools where the textbooks. are full of lies. that is not their fault. So I think there is that that we.

have to just understand. But also, yes, I do think, and I have experienced efforts that. are more about creating the desired. state than educating people about all. the things on the way. JON STEWART: OK. Talk about that, then. HEATHER MCGHEE: The desired state is where you have a sense. of belonging, everyone. The desired state is where you connect on the level.

of your common humanity. So for example, I happen to be very lucky. that my amazing mother is someone who's been doing. this work for a long time. Not as a DEI practitioner, but she was in philanthropy. and she pioneered this program that she. calls Rx Racial Healing. And it's for racial healing in communities. and in institutions.

And one of the things you do is you get a diverse group. of people, you put them in a circle, and you don't ask them to share their greatest. trauma and a history of oppression and exclusion. People need to know that stuff, but it's. sort of like this is hopefully for people who, you know, are at a 2.0, or they go through this program. and then they go and read about that on their own. But in terms of, you know, the real work in the circle,

it's, tell me about a time in your life when you felt awe. Tell me about a time in your life. where somebody really believed in you. and it changed what you did. And so you get people sharing their stories. And it is a white cop and a Black kindergarten teacher. It is, you know, an Indigenous person who. is, you know, fighting for land rights. with somebody who's, you know--. JON STEWART: And not designed to shame. either party, designed to facilitate. HEATHER MCGHEE: It's designed to connect first at the level.

of our common humanity. Because of course, what is racism? It is the lie that we are not all human beings that. are driven fundamentally by the same needs and emotions, right? And so if you experience the actual act of hearing someone's. story about when they felt certain emotions, when their humanity was touched, you connect on that level, and it, in and of itself, gives lie to the racist belief in a hierarchy of human value.

And then you can do the work. So that's just one design element. of what I've seen be much more productive at diminishing. defensiveness among people from, you know, groups that have historically been privileged, but also that get you to a place of trust, because when someone's told you about, you know, beautiful stories from their childhood.

JON STEWART: Right. HEATHER MCGHEE: You know, that's a trust. JON STEWART: Let's talk about that, because the word. privilege, you know, when we talk about in the language. of snowflakes and things like that, you know, the triggering. You know, people's lives are hard. White people's lives are hard. And so when they can hear, you're privileged, it can trigger a kind of weight, you know? How do you separate that idea that this isn't about saying.

your life is great and mine sucks. because I'm in a minority group, but that, you know, life is hard? And how, you know, in many ways, these racial and gender and all these divisions. are there to prevent people from coming together. and effectively pushing against the real issues. of corporate dominance or other things along those lines. HEATHER MCGHEE: Exactly. JON STEWART: How do you take the power out of that word, so that people don't feel attacked immediately.

with just the use of it? HEATHER MCGHEE: Yeah. So. I know. I'm like, I want to say, on the one hand, we have so many great--. JON STEWART: You're about to go, you just tell. them to get fucking over it. That's what you tell them. Get over it. HEATHER MCGHEE: Not me. That's not my style. JON STEWART: No, it's not you at all. It's not. You're the nicest person I know. All right.

HEATHER MCGHEE: But, you know, don't be so fucking fragile. JON STEWART: Exactly. HEATHER MCGHEE: No, no, no, really. No, listen. When I wrote The Sum Of Us, it was trying to make the case. that we have all been poorly served in an economy that is--. you know, where inequality is rampant, and the excuse that the people driving that economy. of inequality have used is racial divisions, racial grievance politics.

And so I absolutely believe that people in power, especially right now, are selling a zero sum story that. says that, you know, progress for people of color and women. is coming at your expense, that more immigrants are taking. your jobs, that if there is, God forbid, you know, less than 1% of the population that needs to become the gender. that they know themselves to be, then. that means that your daughter is never going.

to get a softball scholarship. It is a zero sum story that says fear your neighbor instead. of joining forces with them to take on the people who are. actually immiserating us, who are, you know, the greediest man in the world, for example, who's literally, you know, the one trying to take. away clean air and water and cancer research from all of us. So I believe that's so deeply, that these racial divisions are.

holding us back from a society where. we would all prosper more. JON STEWART: How do we litigate that, Heather? Because that's then-- the final piece of this. is you've got the evidence. You've got the story to tell. How do we litigate that case? Because I don't think it's been litigated well. HEATHER MCGHEE: So I think we are living. in the sort of fulfillment of three. decades of a right wing takeover.

of the information ecosystem. Right? Not only is there not the message discipline that would. have, you know, everyone who wants. to see unity and prosperity in our country singing. from the same hymn book, but they're. just not the channels anymore. And so I think that's a real problem, right? We've lost, you know, almost half. of the newspapers in this country. You know, Sinclair is broadcasting. to 70% of American households, and that's a company that's.

ideologically right wing. Real information and facts are behind a paywall. So you have this like education gap, where the stuff that's. free has just you know, flooded the zone, frankly, crap on social media. That's free. And then you have to pay 80 bucks a year. for the Washington Post. JON STEWART: Algorithmically driven. Yes. HEATHER MCGHEE: Exactly. So we've just got an information. ecosystem that is really distorted, and that's dangerous. But fundamentally, the American people know that the economy is.

rigged for the very wealthy. That is something that you know, the majority of Republicans believe. And it is something that, when we have a Democratic Party--. and I'm talking about politics now because of the laws. that matter that change the economy, but also because people listen to politicians. explain the world to them.

That's part of how we get a story in our head. The Democratic Party is seen as well-meaning but weak. JON STEWART: And defending the status quo. HEATHER MCGHEE: And defending the status. quo at a time when the status quo is just not working. People know their kids will be worse off than them. That is a fundamental violation of the American dream. And so, yes, 49% of the country was like, I would rather choose something different than the status quo. JON STEWART: And by the way, huge inroads.

into the very communities, minority communities. He did much better than he had previously done. But you used a great word, immiserated, and you talked about the rigging of the economy. to the very rich. And yet, I think the prevailing emotional drive. of that electoral change is the economy. is rigged in favor of Black people, women, and undocumented immigrants.

Like, the very people that suffer in most economic. outcome studies are the ones, apparently, who have been elevated. HEATHER MCGHEE: So that is because the people holding. the bullhorn who are selling that zero. sum story for their own profit are saying, blame your neighbor. Blame the person right next to you. that you can see and not a billionaire. JON STEWART: You're working hard, but you're not getting anything out of it.

They are. Those welfare people. HEATHER MCGHEE: Yeah, the undeserving other. And I just-- you know, you said this, so I should address. Why is it that more Latinos and more young. people, especially young white people, more Asian-Americans, more Muslims, a few more Black men, but not that many. We're still-- you know, Black people are still the most--. JON STEWART: Black people are still--. HEATHER MCGHEE: --skeptical. JON STEWART: --rolling their eyes. They're still going, really? Come on.

HEATHER MCGHEE: You know, why that shift? JON STEWART: Right. HEATHER MCGHEE: I think we have to get a little bit more. sophisticated about race and understand that it's not. the story that the right wing, that Donald Trump was selling. was not that all immigrants are bad. All Black people are bad. You know? It was that the underlying negative stereotype. about the racialized other, that people. are lazy, that they're criminal, that they're dangerous, that they're a threat. That was so hyperbolically used, right?

It was like criminal migrants who were, you know, torturing your daughter. That even people who themselves are immigrants. or themselves have immigrants in their family were like, well, let me check the box to say, not me. JON STEWART: Right. HEATHER MCGHEE: Right? JON STEWART: Right. HEATHER MCGHEE: I'm going to check the box to say, that's not me. And yes, you should deport those bad people, because. they're giving us a bad name. Right? And lo and behold--. JON STEWART: Lo and behold, they're like, is that a Chicago Bulls hat?

HEATHER MCGHEE: You're out. El Salvador for you. JON STEWART: It's wild, Heather. Final question. As you watch this build momentum. in the wrong direction, are you seeing the nascent buds. of an effective block, an effective unified group. that can build some guardrails where.

so many others have failed? And is there any advice that you give about becoming. a useful part of that? HEATHER MCGHEE: Such a great question. Thank you. So the moment is for defiance. Right? It is for defiance of a hostile regime that. is attacking our country as if they're. going to war against it. That's what you do to a country that you're. going to war against. You fire the scientists and the civil servants.

You attack civil society. You try to dismantle the institutions of it. that serve the people and that create independent power. And that's what this regime is doing. And so we owe it to ourselves and to the country. that we love to defy that regime. And the good news is that even though there have been a bunch. of really early losses, right? Absolutely self-owns that were totally unnecessary by places. like Columbia University and law firms.

like Paul Weiss and others, there. have been both elites like Harvard, which. really succumbed to a pressure campaign. from the inside and the out. Like the City of Cambridge, you know, did a unanimous resolution saying. stand up to Trump, right? This is before the executive order. The faculty, 800 of them signed a letter. Like, it was a campaign because people knew it was coming,

to buck up Harvard. And they did the right thing. They said, you know what? Our research matters. Our institution matters. And that's great. Some of the lessons there are, A, know your worth. Anticipate that they're going to come for you. Right? Like, a lot of my friends work in nonprofit organizations. We just saw the first, you know, attack, the desire to get DOGE employees in any institution.

that accepts federal money. So you'll have, like, Elon Musk's, like, henchmen sitting in your nonprofit office. if you accept federal dollars. JON STEWART: Wow. HEATHER MCGHEE: You know? That just happened. Right? So know that they're coming for you in the sector. Know that they're coming for media. Know that they're coming for you and get together. The lesson there is be in solidarity. Right? One of the things that happened with the law firms. is that instead of calling up Paul Weiss when they got. that executive order, all the other law firms.

called and tried to pick off their clients. and tried to pick off their best lawyers. Right? They were like, great. Blood in the water. Let's do this. JON STEWART: Oh my Lord. HEATHER MCGHEE: And so then all of a sudden, you know, the people calling the shots. at that firm were like, we're not going. to survive the next 72 hours. We've got to cave. SO the understanding that there's. strength in numbers against tyranny is very important. Get ready.

Stay ready so you don't have to get ready. Know what time it is. Also, we had one of the largest demonstration days. in American history all over the country, all 50 states, on April 5. The Hands Off rallies. We had massive economic pressure being put from, you. know, things that are being organized. by Black pastors against Target, you know, saying choose Costco, not Target. So we've got all of these different places. You know, one of the big wedges has obviously been about,

you know, anti-war protesters being picked. off the street and deported--. JON STEWART: For writing an op ed in a Tufts University paper. HEATHER MCGHEE: Exactly. And so we had, you know, Jewish parents and Tufts alumni. having, you know, a protest and a day. of action to get that young woman back and safe. So we've seen a lot of solidarity movements happening. And I think that right now it is scary. People do feel like we tried so many things the first time.

around, and here we are. People feel like he won the popular vote, and so maybe this is just America, and I need to keep my head down. That's why I keep saying 49% of the popular vote, right? This is not the majority of America. JON STEWART: But you do have to be cognizant that, you know, we keep saying this isn't us. And you do think like, well, it is kind of us. And you have to be clear-eyed about who you have to persuade. and how much it needs to happen.

And also maybe-- and I love the analogy of be ready, sort of. It's Heather McGhee saying, balls of the feet, people. Get in ready position and get ready to go. But also, we live in an era of immediate satisfaction. This is going to be a slog, as they always are. It's the thing I like to say when they say, you know, the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice. And you think, well, not by itself. And there's certainly a lot of people trying to bend it back.

HEATHER MCGHEE: That's right. Not by itself. And it's not linear, right? I mean, so maybe I'll just end with this, Jon. JON STEWART: Yes. HEATHER MCGHEE: So when I was in law school, I read about the Civil Rights cases of 1881 to 1883, and it really changed my perspective on how. progress happens in America. So I, like everybody, sort of had. this sort of linear narrative of progress of our country. There was slavery, then there's Civil War, and then there was Jim Crow. That was better than slavery, but it was really bad.

And then there was Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King and then. dah, dah, dah, and Obama. You know? Like, it's just like this. Right? JON STEWART: Yeah, yeah, yeah. HEATHER MCGHEE: But when I learned that. after the Civil War, the reconstruction Congress. passed civil rights laws. And there was integration in the South. There were, you know, Black leaders. JON STEWART: Black people started getting elected mayor. HEATHER MCGHEE: Exactly. Right? There were Black people in Congress. We had something that just was the fruits.

of the incredible sacrifice of the Civil War. And then the Supreme Court knocked. down those federal Civil Rights laws in 1881 and 1883. And then we had 75 years of Jim Crow. JON STEWART: Oh, I did not realize it was the Supreme--. I thought it was a political compromise, but it wasn't. It was--. HEATHER MCGHEE: It was both, right? The political-- right? It's always a little bit of both. But like, literally, the laws that had been passed. were knocked down by the Supreme Court. JON STEWART: Were deemed unconstitutional.

HEATHER MCGHEE: Yes. And so, you know, what that tells me is that progress is. not linear, and that we may find. ourselves living in a time when there is great retrenchment. And it may come from a narrow faction. And it may create the kind of suffering that I think. that we're going to see all over the country. as this destruction happens coming from Washington,

as so many of the jobs that help our country thrive. are being snatched away, as so much of the funding that helps. our country be at the leading edge is being flushed. down the toilet over nothing. There is going to be misery. You know? The fact that we are in this place where autocracy is. on the march is going to be difficult. But we also know that if the generation that experienced,

you know, the previous retrenchment had despaired, we wouldn't be here. I wouldn't be here. You wouldn't be here, right? You know? JON STEWART: Uh-oh. Heather, you just turned it around for me. You had me going. I was heading down into the hole, Heather. You just turned it around for me. Keep it going, Heather. They didn't despair. What did they do, Heather? HEATHER MCGHEE: If they had despaired, if they had despaired, we wouldn't be here, right?

They said that there is a wall in front of us, and I'm going to keep hammering at it. And I may not be the one to see it fall down, this wall of injustice. But it will fall down because of the blows that I made. That's our job. That's our job right now in this moment, to keep hammering at the wall of injustice, to adapt, to be smarter, to be more. persuasive, to find new ways to bring. people in and call people in. Yes. But, also to keep our eye on the prize, as my people.

would say, because we have got to keep going. And so for everyone who feels like, oh my gosh, I can't watch the news anymore. I'm anxious. I'm depressed. I don't know what to do. I marched, I called, I donated. Now I don't feel like doing any of that. Like, I hear you. I feel you. Trust me, I do. And yet, we have to, for ourselves. and for future generations, keep doing something. We have to keep taking these blows. Because what an autocrat wants is for the good civil society.

majority to fall back. And we can't do it. A better country is in our future, I have no doubt about that. And it'll get better because of what. we've had to face about ourselves in this dark period. JON STEWART: Oh, man. You just blew my mind in the sense of not only. that we'd be a better country, but because of the trial, you will come out with a greater resilience.

and a greater understanding and a stronger foundation. than when we went in. It's an inoculation against those ills. Heather McGhee, that's just--. that's just beautiful. Heather McGhee, author of The Sum Of Us. I can't thank you enough for spending the time, and it's always such a pleasure to talk to you, and I can't wait to see what's coming next from you. HEATHER MCGHEE: Thank you, Jon. [UPBEAT MUSIC].

JON STEWART: Whew! Folks, that was a roller coaster ride for me, I got to tell you. There were moments of despair. But the beautiful thing about Heather McGhee. is she will lay it out there, steely eyed and clearly, and just as you were about to, maybe you feel that little hint. of resignation crawling up your back, she will bring you back to that sense of duty and power. and really invigorate you that this is a worthy moment.

A worthy moment, and you won't always. be ready to do what's necessary, but that you have to keep yourself absolutely ready. And she's just fabulous and sobering but also, I. think, inspiring. So thank you guys very much. You can always reach us on social media.

We didn't have time to get all our incredible other producers. on the program today, so I don't know. what the socials are because--. because I just don't. I don't have any idea. But as always, I want to thank lead producer Lauren Walker, producer Brittany Mehmedovic, video editor and engineer Rob. Vitolo, audio editor and engineer Nicole Boyce, researcher and associate producer Gillian Speer, and our executive producers Chris McShane and Caity Gray.

Thank you for joining us, and see you next time. Bye bye. The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart. is a Comedy Central podcast that's produced by Paramount. Audio and Busboy Productions. [UPBEAT MUSIC].