Jon Stewart & Bernie Sanders on Rebuilding Trust & Efficacy in the Government | The Weekly Show

JON STEWART: Let's spend some time on it, Senator. BERNIE SANDERS: Damn it. Let's do it. JON STEWART: Damn it. Let's do it! [THEME MUSIC]. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to The Weekly Show pod. My name is Jon Stewart. This is our-- I don't know if it's our-- it's not our last. It may be our penultimate Weekly. Show pod for this, the Lord's year of 2024, which has been--. I don't know if you guys have know. this, but a little tumultuous. We appear to be in a transitional period,

where we are not sure about whether the ground. we are standing on is solid. Although, the news media seems convinced that we are the road. runner and the coyote. And the coyote has run over the cliff. And we just looked down and realized there's. nothing under our feet. And now we are plunging to our deaths. Because the news media is always very circumspect. We don't know what's going to happen. when Donald Trump takes over. Unfortunately, we can't see into the future.

But we have to be prepared for all outcomes. I don't know how helpful it is to get us shitting our pants. this much, this early. But I guess it's always important to stay on top of it. It's kind of why I'm actually really. excited to have this podcast. I am convinced. It must be such a strange thing-- it is for me--. for someone who has kind of complained about wanting.

government to be more efficient and more. responsive and-- and making fundamental changes--. to see that mantle being carried out. by a group of people that I don't necessarily. trust to do it in a manner--. [LAUGHTER]. That is-- but I guess that's what it is when you--. that's what losing elections is, man. You don't-- you don't get to dictate any. You don't get to say, well, wait, wait, wait, what if we did it this way? That's-- that's the beauty of it. This is-- in the joint custody agreement.

that we now have in America--. it is-- I guess the kids are--. they're going to live with dad for the summer. And you just got to fucking eat it. Just-- you can't just--. I don't want them going on the lake in the raft. And you're like, well, you're not here. You're not in charge. So you don't get to decide. And that's-- boy, that's a tough one. But I'm really excited for our guest today. Because I think he has embodied somebody who's been really. consistent about fighting for the rights of workers.

and fighting for an economy that more aligns with, I think, what a healthy society should align their economy. with, and more bottom up, and-- and more respect for work, and labor, and-- and-- and not causing people. to get squeezed in such a way that everything. feels so tenuous all the time. So I'm excited to get to him. I won't-- I won't babble around any longer. I'll just get to it. [THEME MUSIC].

So let's welcome in right now--. we're delighted that he can join us-- independent Senator, Bernie Sanders, Chair of the Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions Committee. And Senator, thank you so much for--. for being here today. I'm excited to talk to you. BERNIE SANDERS: Well, my pleasure, Jon, and keep up the great work. JON STEWART: Well, thank you, sir. You, too. Now, you know, I have sort of a theory of the election. And it is purely my opinion. But I got the sense that what kind of happened. to the Democrats was that they were.

in a position to defend a status quo that most voters--. certainly, many-- felt was no longer delivering for them. that-- you know, and there's all kinds. of different iterations and permutations of that thought. But it feels like the party that believes most. in government's ability to improve people's lives. and to play that role kind of didn't understand that people. felt that it wasn't, that many Democrats felt like, oh, no, we.

are improving your lives. You just don't realize it. Is that something that resonates with you, sir? BERNIE SANDERS: It is, Jon. I would look at it just a hair differently. But I think you're on to the fundamental issue. of the campaign. Bottom line is, Donald Trump said, the system is broken. That's all. And I'm going to smash it. JON STEWART: Right. I'm going to burn it down. BERNIE SANDERS: That's right. JON STEWART: Yeah.

BERNIE SANDERS: And what Democrats have been saying is, you know, basically we're going to tinker around the edges, but we defend the status quo. We'll make a little bit of a change here or there. So if you're an ordinary person--. you don't have to have a PhD in economics--. what you understand is that you can't afford housing. You go to the grocery store, prices are higher. You understand that, everything being equal,

your kid may have a lower standard. of living than you do, despite huge increases. in worker productivity. You look around. And you're seeing billionaires becoming much richer, while people in your neighborhood. are falling further and further behind. You can't afford to go to a doctor--. or if you're lucky, if you find a doctor. If you have a little baby, the cost of childcare. is extremely high. You're worried about public education. The system is not working for you.

The reality is, it is working very, very well for the people. on top, the people, in fact, who Donald. Trump will end up defending. JON STEWART: And this is--. Senator, for you, this has got to be sort of a strange moment. So I feel like you, for 50 years, have kind of railed against this idea of an economy that. devalued labor and kind of overvalued capital. and investment. And we watched money walk away from the United States, searching for cheaper labor and cheaper goods and all that.

And we lost manufacturing base and workers. But generally, labor has paid the price. of this kind of what they would call neoliberal economics. You've railed against that forever. BERNIE SANDERS: Jon, the issue is, A, the reality and, B, that we don't talk about the reality. OK, here's the reality. You want to hear reality? JON STEWART: Man, please. BERNIE SANDERS: Over the last 50 years, 5-0 years,

despite huge increases in worker productivity as a result. of technology, the average blue collar worker today. in inflation adjusted for dollars, is earning maybe the same, maybe a hair less than. he or she did 50 years ago. How's that? JON STEWART: Ugh, not good. BERNIE SANDERS: It's horrible! It's unbelievable! JON STEWART: Right. BERNIE SANDERS: And at the same time, there has been a $50, 5-0, trillion transfer of wealth from. the bottom 90% to the top 1%.

You got that? Massive transfer of wealth. So ordinary people may not have-- you know, know that. But they know that there is something fundamentally wrong. They are getting screwed. They had a good job in a factory. That factory is in China. And the very wealthiest people are becoming wealthier. That's the kind of angst that Trump was able to pick up on. JON STEWART: And do you think it's-- you know, when they talk about, kind of, well, we have to defend democracy.

But if-- if the people believe that our democracy is. a kind of soft oligarchy-- and quite frankly, not even that soft--. it appears to be an oligarchy. And-- and do they think, what am I actually defending here? We need, not incremental changes, we need fundamental reform. BERNIE SANDERS: Jon, that's exactly right. And in fact, there was a poll I saw in The New York Times. a couple of months ago before the election, something. like 45% of the American people said,

democracy is not working for them. So what does democracy mean? Does it mean big deal? You're going to go out and vote every two. years, every four years. It means that the government is supposed to represent me. I feel good about it. I have people there who know what I'm dealing with. and are passing legislation that improves my life. Do you think most people in America. believe that's the case now? They don't. They shouldn't. Because not only do you have an economic system. which is rigged, you've got a political system. which is corrupt. And again, we don't talk about it enough.

But anybody who paid attention to this last. election saw a few hundred billionaires--. a few hundred people--. spending tens and tens of billions. of dollars to elect the candidates of their choice. And you're the ordinary guy out there. Maybe you got a vote. So what does that matter when big money is buying elections? So your point is exactly right. Democracy is not some abstract idea. Oh, isn't it great? I can vote every four years. No, democracy is supposed to represent my interest.

Most people don't think that it is. JON STEWART: And Bernie, do you think this. is a customer service issue? Is this an issue of being so removed from--. I mean, if you were to look at-- you know, and I've looked. at these kinds of tax bills, where. they'll lay out the eight tranches of where. your tax money might go. Well, the first five of them don't. really impact people's lives. How do you create a system of government where--. I mean, there are tons of people in European countries. who receive social services far beyond what we ever provide.

in the United States, pay higher taxes, but express much greater satisfaction. Can our democracy deliver for its customers? Or are we stuck with a kind of more. autocratic oligarchic system? How do you make that argument for people. when they don't believe that it can function efficiently? BERNIE SANDERS: All right, Jon, that. is a really, really important question, maybe.

the most important question. JON STEWART: Let's spend some time on it, Senator! BERNIE SANDERS: Damn it. Let's do it! JON STEWART: Damn it. Let's do it, Senator! BERNIE SANDERS: All right. So the first point you made is that it is important for us. to do what the corporate media often doesn't do, and take. a look at what's going on around the rest of the world. in many wealthy countries. You take what I consider to be maybe. the most fundamental right. And that is health care, all right? So.

If you go out and poll people-- and I do--. is health care a human right? Should every American be entitled to health care, whether they're rich, or poor, young or old? And you know what the American people say? They say, yeah, we do believe that. JON STEWART: Right. BERNIE SANDERS: And yet, you'll have--. to your point-- very few people in Congress, in the Democratic Party, in the Republican Party. who really say, you know, health care is a human right. The function of health care should not. be to make huge profits for the insurance companies. and the drug companies but to provide quality care.

to all people. Now, you know what? That's a hard thing to do for any country on Earth. No system is perfect. But we have got to establish the premise that health care is. a human right, not just a commodity. for large corporations to make money from. If you could do that, if people understood that they lived. in a society in which they had health care as a human right, that in itself, Jon, would be a profound transformation. of people's attitude toward government.

JON STEWART: Right. BERNIE SANDERS: I cannot tell you, you know, having run for president, you hold a million meetings all. over the country hearing the heartbreak. of people who leave hospital hundreds of thousands. of dollars in debt. And they go bankrupt because they were dealing with cancer. Does anybody think that makes sense? All right. We lose 60,000 people a year because they don't go. to a doctor when they should. Meanwhile, we're spending twice as much per person. on health care. This is an issue we are not even discussing, let alone.

figuring out how we can go forward. So to answer your question, if government. begins to deliver for people, they say, hey, you know what? Maybe democracy works. Maybe I'm going to get involved. If it doesn't, if it just delivers for the rich, who the hell cares? Why do I need a democracy? JON STEWART: Well, they even look at-- you know, when-- any survey will tell you, you know, the most popular things in government. are probably Medicare and Social Security. And these are what are considered socialism. but in the rest of the industrial world. are minimalist social safety net programs.

But I'll even go a little further. You know, when-- you mentioned earlier, incrementalism. And I think that's such a fascinating point, Senator, and. one that we don't talk about. You know, think about the trumpeting of, hey, we lowered insulin prices. We finally, after a 30-year battle of charging up the hill, we finally, as the federal government, got. to negotiate insulin prices. And you want to say, well, we've. been spending billions of dollars in subsidies.

for drug companies. And yet, our drug prices are much higher than anywhere. else in the world. If this were Shark Tank and you were the investor, which. is what the American people are, the return on investment. is fakakta. It doesn't make any sense. BERNIE SANDERS: Jon, you're right. And you're wrong. JON STEWART: But wait a minute. Don't pull the rug out here, Senator. Yeah, talk to me. BERNIE SANDERS: Your basic premise is, of course, true. On the other hand, you have to appreciate,

given the corruption, the broad corruption that exists here. and the power of the drug companies, that it was a very significant achievement on the part. of Congress and the Biden administration. to at least do it-- start to do what every other bloody country. on Earth is doing. So we spend zillions of dollars on prescription drugs. It doesn't take a genius to say, hey, drug companies, let's sit down and negotiate a good price. The Veterans Administration, by the way,

has been doing that for decades, OK? Every other country on Earth does it. It was a huge struggle. So the Biden administration deserves credit. But your point is, yeah? So what? We got insulin. Good. JON STEWART: How did we end up in that position? That's-- you know? BERNIE SANDERS: Yeah, to your point--. and this gets back to--. I think getting back to the campaign-- not good enough. to say, look what we did. We got insulin-- but by the way, a new cancer. drug coming onto the market. You know what it's going to cost a year? Hundreds of thousands of dollars. JON STEWART: Right.

BERNIE SANDERS: Are we really talking. about taking on the pharmaceutical industry. so that they don't continue to rip off the American people? No, that's not on the table. It can't be talked about. JON STEWART: And in many ways-- you know, for me, I think, if I'm fundamentally thinking about why government plays. an important role in all this. You know, we talk about the system of-- of democracy. is checks and balances. And we all talk about legislative, and executive, and judicial, and all these. I think what nobody ever really maybe projected.

into was the power of multinational. global corporate interest. And there really isn't anything that other than government. that has the size--. and hopefully the will. Look, the system that we have chosen to generate profit. is a powerful one. And it, as you very adeptly pointed out earlier, generates an incredible amount of wealth. But very clearly, that system has. victims and collateral damage.

And it feels like government's role should. be to support those victims and the collateral damage. and somehow be a check--. BERNIE SANDERS: Right. JON STEWART: --on this larger corporate entity. BERNIE SANDERS: But the corporate world understands. exactly what you said. And that's why they're trying buy the government. So in some ways, you can almost look at government today. as a result of Citizens United. There's the House and the Senate. as employees of large corporations.

and wealthy people. I mean, that's what-- you know, if you're a billionaire, you could start a Super PAC, put hundreds of millions. of dollars into an effort to defeat, say, Sherrod Brown in Ohio, or other candidates, or APAC. If you disagree with what Netanyahu is doing in Gaza, well, you're going to have to deal with APAC, who's prepared to spend $17 million. in a bloody Democratic caucus. You want to stand up to APAC? Good luck to you. So that gets back to money in politics, how horrific Citizens.

United has been, not only in allowing. billionaires to buy elections, but to intimidate people. You want to stand up to the drug companies? Fine. They're going to put a whole lot of money to defeat you. Prepared to do that? Well, maybe I don't want to do that. That's where we are at. JON STEWART: Senator, do you think it's fair to say, even. before Citizens United, that, you know, kind of money talks, bullshit walks. Like, the government had been captured.

by these sort of moneyed interests for a very long time. I mean, even back to our founding, it's been--. BERNIE SANDERS: Oh, it's always been the case. It goes without saying. The rich have the power. But Citizens United and the Super PACs. have made a very bad situation much, much worse. JON STEWART: So let's talk about how, you know, the Republicans have captured that kind of mantle of, we're going to defend the forgotten man. We're going to defend, you know, the mantle. that you have taken on for your entire career.

and never wavered in-- in any of it. But is there populism for workers, a false populism? Because if you look at--. they might say, OK, let's get more protectionist on trade. and try and draw some of those jobs back. But if you look at all the court decisions from the right, it strips workers of their rights to form unions. BERNIE SANDERS: You got it. JON STEWART: It strips protections for workers. Is this a facade that they're proffering? BERNIE SANDERS: Of course it is.

JON STEWART: Or are there things in it you like? BERNIE SANDERS: Well, there will be some things that Trump. said, some things that Elon Musk said, some things that Robert Kennedy said that makes sense. But overall, I think it's very clear, Trump is appointing his billionaire. friends to the important positions in the cabinet. And his job is to represent the billionaire. class, with some exceptions. He's going to have to walk a bit of a tightrope. Because he's made promises to working class people. And I think what our job--.

what my job and people in Congress who share my views--. not too many-- is to say, OK, Mr. Trump, you talked about a 10% cap on interest rates. for credit cards. That's a great idea. Well, you know what, Jon? I'm going to introduce that legislation. Let's see how far it goes. For years now, I have understood, as most Americans. have, that the defense budget is bloated,

that many of the major defense contractors. engage in fraud and waste--. massive cost overruns. All right? I have legislation in to cut military spending by 10%. Recently, you may have noticed that Elon Musk came. out and said, you know what? We should be cutting military spending. How many Republicans will go along? So when they say good things and appropriate things, I think we should work with them. JON STEWART: How do you walk that tightrope? Because--. BERNIE SANDERS: Wow. JON STEWART: --what I find is there is a gag reflex from--.

and I think both parties have it--. a gag reflex on--. Robert Kennedy says, ultra processed foods. are killing Americans. And and I'm like, yeah--. BERNIE SANDERS: That's right. JON STEWART: --God awful. That's got to change. But if you were to say that, boy, are you just dogpiled. How can you agree with Robert Kennedy, Jr. on anything? He's this and that. And Elon Musk says, we've got waste and inefficiency. in the government. And we're like, yeah, we've been.

yelling about that for years. And as soon as you do that, how can you? How dare you? It's really interesting. BERNIE SANDERS: Jon, that is exactly what the challenge is. I'm holding a hearing. As of today and for the next month, I am Chairman of the Health Education Labor Committee. You know what I'm holding a hearing on tomorrow? To demand to know why the commissioner of the FDA. has not, in fact, at least gone forward with strong labels. to warn the American people about the nature of the food.

that they are eating, which is leading to obesity, which is leading to diabetes. We have been absolutely irresponsible. Kennedy is right on that issue. Your point is that he wants to make fluoride out of water. That's a disaster to my mind--. plus, many of the other crazy things he says. So you're saying, how do you walk that line? Well, that is exactly what we are trying. to figure out right now. JON STEWART: Because they've identified--. look, the system that we're currently. operating in, Senator, is--. you've got food companies that have scientists that. are working to design foods to get past the chemicals.

in your brain that tell you to stop eating, to get past those defenses, which. creates diabetes and obesity. And then you have the pharmaceutical companies who. come in and say, well, here, here's Ozempic, and here's Mounjaro. And now we're caught in this bananas cycle where. these corporations are just profiting off of our incredibly. poor health outcomes. BERNIE SANDERS: Right. And that's exactly the issue we're talking about. Now, we have talked to scientists, to your point, who.

are saying that the food that they are. advertising massively on TV--. which is another issue--. is addictive. It is-- I want more and more of that crap. And it stays with me my whole life, which is why we're seeing an epidemic in childhood obesity, 20% of the kids now, 40% of adults. We're spending $400 billion a year. on diabetes-related illnesses. How is that? 1/10 of the health care budget.

Has the government acted in any way. with the urgency that is needed? Of course, it has not. So Kennedy is right on that issue. But your point, how we deal with that--. plus, the crazy stuff that he's saying--. is exactly what I'm trying to figure out. JON STEWART: So how do we get the government. to be more-- look, democracy is clearly. kind of an analog system and designed to be as such. And we live in a digital world. But let's go to a specific example that I think. proved really detrimental during the election.

for the Democrats. And that is the border. Now, it's pretty clear that the border was a real problem. in terms of security and the pressure it was putting on, not just those border communities, but all kinds of other areas with the amount of people. coming in. The administration had the ability. to do something in a pretty agile and urgent way. through executive action. And they kept saying, well, if they put something in front.

of my desk, I'll sign it. Or the parliamentarian says, I can't. And they've got all these reasons. And I always think of this as, this is Washington. It's rules. It's loopholes. And it's norms. If you don't want to do something, it's complex enough, there's always a rule that tells you. that you don't have to do it. But there's always a loophole if you really do want to do it. And there's always a norm where you can shake your finger. at somebody for doing it. They let that border situation fester for two years.

and ultimately just did the thing that they could. have done two years earlier. And didn't that show people, wait, so the government. could do it, they just didn't? BERNIE SANDERS: Yup. [LAUGHTER]. I could give you many examples of that. JON STEWART: Bring them! BERNIE SANDERS: All right. I'll give you one example. JON STEWART: Yeah. BERNIE SANDERS: All right? It's relevant to the state of Vermont. But it, I think, speaks to the broader issue. Vermont has been hit hard by flooding in recent years.

as a result of climate change. And one of the floods did a job on our state capital, Montpelier, Vermont-- beautiful downtown--. and included damaging the federal building, which contained the local post office, OK? The post building was shut down. We needed a new post office for that community. There were many vacant buildings in the area. Probably, it would have taken somebody in the private sector.

a week or two to find a location. and start the process of opening a new facility. We, and the entire Vermont delegation, begged and pleaded with the post office. It took them literally a year, a year, to do what could have. been done in several weeks. All right? And the examples go on and on. So if we are going--. if we believe, I believe, that, in a Democratic, civilized. society, government must play an important role in protecting.

ordinary people--. people are not going to believe that unless we make. the government efficient and able. to deliver services in an appropriate way. JON STEWART: And I guess, ultimately, the question is, Senator, do you believe it can? Have you seen instances where it does accomplish that? Like at the border, they just decided, oh, yes, do that. BERNIE SANDERS: Yes. There are many instances. I mean, I can go back to when my family. didn't have any money. So I went to a public school.

You know what? It was a damn good public school. Teachers were respected. They took their job seriously. It was adequately funded. They educated kids in an appropriate way. Right now, despite all of the criticism. you may hear, the VA Medical system--. you go to a VA hospital in Vermont. You know what the veterans will tell you? Pretty good health care. And it's cost effective. And they need more support. But those are just-- yeah. And there are great public schools. today all over this country where teachers. are doing a great job.

VA is doing a good job. There are other agencies that are doing a good job. So I don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater. But there is no question that, if we're going to get people. to believe in democracy, we've got to make. government more accountable. And we've got to start delivering for the people. JON STEWART: And perhaps, for Democrats, if they feel like this is a time to really reflect on. that the changes aren't about wokeness or other issues. that are ancillary. The change is really about getting government-- you know,

I always thought this was really interesting. Amongst the Democrats, they'll say, the billionaires have to pay their fair share. And we need to get the upper class to-- to pay their taxes. and do all that. But they don't do a very good job of convincing you. what that money is going to be used for. and what value are you going-- so if you go to somebody. and you say, we need those people to pay their fair share, but the public says, what are you doing with that money? Because it looks like you're just diddling around. So don't Democrats, to kind of recapture.

the faith of the people, have to begin to square that circle. of having people believe that the money that they send up. comes back with reasonable value? BERNIE SANDERS: Yes, absolutely, it does. And I think that speaks to not only. making government efficient. It's-- it's really changing the mindset of the whole country.

Right now, you tell me how many graduates. of Harvard or Yale College are going. to public school teaching. What would be your guess? JON STEWART: That go into public school teaching? BERNIE SANDERS: Yeah. JON STEWART: From-- oh, gosh. I mean, I would think it's-- it's incredibly small. I would think it's 3% or less. BERNIE SANDERS: Yeah. All right. I think that's-- that's true. What we have got to do is, in a sense, change the value system of this-- right now, you're getting-- you know, we're getting into really. a deeper issue. You know, we talk about oligarchy,

which is the reality. You have three people in America. who own more wealth than the bottom half of America. You got more concentration of ownership. today than we've ever had. And you got billionaires buying elections. You add that up. That is-- not maybe-- that is oligarchy. All right? And then what you got is--. OK, Jon, you're raising a kid. What-- what should this child strive for? Well, obviously, to become like Elon Musk--. the goal of life is to become a billionaire. That's all it is.

And, you know, Trump is a perfect example of that. You lie. You cheat. You steal. He was involved in 4,000 lawsuits. as a private businessman. He lied all the time. But that's good, because he made money. That's all that we want. Turn on the goddamn television. You can't watch a program without being. flooded with ads, right? All right, we got to take a deep breath and ask ourselves, is that really the society we want, everybody going out, becoming a billionaire? Or maybe, how do we work together to create. a good health care system? How do you come into teaching?

We respect you. We love you because you're teaching kindergarten kids. That's important. You're respected. You're well-paid. That is revolution in values in America. That's what we've got to do. JON STEWART: No question. Because, it's-- you know, listen. We pay lip service to essential workers. There's probably no worse phrase to be called. than an essential worker. Because what that probably means. is-- if they call you essential, they're underpaying you and overutilizing you. And you're not-- and you're not getting the advantage. And many--. BERNIE SANDERS: And by the way, let me add--.

JON STEWART: Yeah. BERNIE SANDERS: --a little bit of trauma here. During COVID, you die. That's what happened. Tens of thousands of these workers died. And after COVID was ended, you forget about them, so. JON STEWART: Oh, grocery-- grocery workers, bus drivers, I remember. BERNIE SANDERS: You got it. You got it. JON STEWART: The must have been a hundred bus. drivers that-- that-- that died of COVID. But it speaks to that idea that labor has been devalued. And I think what you're talking about is focusing on a bottom. up-- and I hate to call it Keynesian--. but-- but a bottom-up approach to building a much sturdier.

society, a society that's less concerned about. Zuckerberg's 50th billion, but more concerned. about a family's first $1,000. BERNIE SANDERS: That's right. JON STEWART: And how we change that--. but doesn't that speak to--. how does Washington get out of that bubble. to understand the trap that most people are in? Child care is too expensive. Then when the kid's finally old enough, education is too expensive. When you finally pay that off, your parents are older,

and you got to take care of them. How do we get them to understand that? BERNIE SANDERS: They're not going to. You're missing the point here, Jon. [LAUGHTER]. It's not a question of getting them. You know, people think--. people think the members of Congress. and the Senate are stupid. They're not. It's not a question of knowing or understanding. It's a question of, who controls what goes on here? Jon, I'll give you an example. I won't mention any names here. I have been very critical--. I don't know what your view is-- of what Netanyahu.

has been doing in Gaza, OK? JON STEWART: Brother, preaching to the--. I would say, choir, but you and I. both probably had to go to a synagogue, so I don't know what-- I don't know what. I'm preaching to the cantor. BERNIE SANDERS: OK, good. JON STEWART: Yeah. BERNIE SANDERS: I introduced legislation that would. stop arms sales to Netanyahu. We got 19 votes, which observers thought. was very significant. JON STEWART: Right. BERNIE SANDERS: A significant majority. of people who consider themselves. Democrats agree with us.

I got 19 votes, OK? The American people do not believe that we should. be supporting a government that is starving children. right now as we speak. But if you stand up, you're going. to find that APAC and other billionaire-funded Super. PACs are going to go to war against you, putting. huge amounts of money in a primary. in your general election. So it's not a question of not understanding. There are many members of the Senate.

who will come to you privately and say, my God, what Netanyahu is doing is outrageous. I just can't vote, because money. is going to come and destroy my political career. So you've got to get at the root of everything--. not of everything. But a key part of this whole discussion, Jon, is money in politics. People cannot vote their conscience. They can't vote their intelligence when they know, if they vote against the corporate world. or the big money world, they're going. to get defeated at the polls.

JON STEWART: I have to say, that's an incredibly. dispiriting statement. Because it speaks to, it's not ignorance, it's--. it's willful. And it's cynical. BERNIE SANDERS: [INAUDIBLE] But look, Jon, you're a politician. You're a United States Senator. You're thinking about-- you know the issue. All right? You know the prescription drugs are too high. You want to vote with your constituents. But you know that, if you take a bold step. to take on the greed of the pharmaceutical industry, they're going to pour huge amounts of money. and defeat you. All right? That's what you got to be thinking about.

Now, what's-- all right, so, you know, you can. blame the politician there. But he said, yeah, well, I'm going to get beaten by somebody. who will do worse, right? The system is broken and corrupt, the political system. JON STEWART: Right. BERNIE SANDERS: And that's what we have to address. JON STEWART: Boy, that's a tough one. And it almost-- you know, it almost. makes you think you have to design. a system that can function outside of that incentive. BERNIE SANDERS: And that's-- again, you talk--. we started this discussion talking. about the rest of the world. You know, every country has this issue.

And money always plays a role in politics. But it is much worse in the United States. Can we address it? We can. You know, you can move toward public funding of elections, you know? I can-- Maine, for example, the state of Maine, keeps doing good work in this area. So it is not an issue that cannot. be effectively addressed. But we got to focus on it and make it a major, major issue. of concern. JON STEWART: But think about the-- you know, the sort. of directionality of it. I mean, I'm-- I'm remembering the days. of Mccain-Feingold when, you know, they.

sort of struck this bargain. And we're going to rein in campaign finance. And two years later, everything's blowing up. And you've got the Koch brothers and Soros. And everybody's OK with it, as long as it's their billionaire. If it's our billionaire, it's fine. If it's their billionaire-- and, you know, there was something I was talking about with. somebody recently, which was maybe. the way to deal with this is--. I don't know that we'll ever be able to fully. regulate the money on it. But maybe we can regulate the time. What if we just made the election cycles much smaller.

so that it's not a permanent campaign? And look, the Supreme Court has watered down any. of our corruption statutes. I mean, unless you literally write on a piece of paper, I'm going to give you a million dollars. for this exact legislative outcome, it's considered business as usual. I mean, they've basically legitimized all corruption. BERNIE SANDERS: Look. If somebody says to me, Bernie, I. want you to vote for this bill, here's. a $5 check, that's bribery. If somebody says, hey, Bernie, I'm. willing to start a Super PAC for you and put $200 million.

into it, perfectly legal. That's absurd. JON STEWART: Right. And let me take you on a little trip. BERNIE SANDERS: But I want to comment. on your length of campaigns. Again, it is no secret that, in the UK, in Canada, and many other countries, the length. of time of their campaigns is much, much less. And I think, in one way or another, that's what we've got to do. The idea that-- I mean, literally, the 2026 campaign. has already started. I mean, it never ends.

It's perpetual. Your point is well taken. We've got to figure out that, as well. JON STEWART: It's the kind of thing. that, ultimately, when we really break it down, a lot. of the things-- like, what Musk and Ramaswamy are proposing, boy, is something I've wanted for years. I'm just not sure those are the guys that I wanted to do it. Because maybe I don't trust their--. BERNIE SANDERS: Right. JON STEWART: You know, I feel like they're. too focused on woke, or retribution, or something. along those lines. And we'll go in there. Is it Democrat's inability to reform.

those processes that has opened the opportunity for this more. nihilistic approach? BERNIE SANDERS: Yeah. Democrats are, in many cases--. not all-- defending a system which is broken. And people perceive that it is broken. And Trump says, it is broken. Now his remedies are going to make it even worse. And I think what I fear very much hasn't. been discussed all that much. If I-- I can give you an example.

The post office-- the mandate of the post office. is a very good mandate. It is to deliver mail to every house in America, no matter how rural it can be. It's a money loser, but it's the right thing to do. You can privatize the post office tomorrow, make it more efficient. And yet, you will lose the beauty of what the post. office is supposed to be. The challenge that we face is, can you have a post office. functioning in the year 2024 which is efficient,

which serves the needs of its customers? I believe we can. I believe we can. And I'm fighting for that. What these other guys, I suspect, want to do. is privatize, privatize, privatize. So we'll have even more power in the hands of. the large corporate interests. JON STEWART: And that's the tough part. And that's why I always thought there should be-- you know, people always talk about a moonshot. We need a Manhattan Project. I always thought we needed a bureaucratic moonshot,

a bureaucratic-- where we streamline. Because so many of government programs--. and I know this from, you know, doing. some work through the VA--. set up an adversarial system to the people who. are there to access these--. these government programs-- that the bureaucracy itself. that is set up for whatever 3% of people they think. might be trying to defraud--. it actually costs more money--. BERNIE SANDERS: Exactly. JON STEWART: --to set it up that way. BERNIE SANDERS: But it is--. two things, Jon.

Number one, for-- and you know, for a lot of the people, the ultimate goal here--. using the VA as an example--. is to privatize the VA. You know, let's not be naive here. If we can make government so incredibly. dysfunctional that people say, Jesus, forget about it, right? Do you think if-- if we expanded. Medicare-- just one example. If we expanded Medicare, which the American people want, to cover hearing, vision, and dental care, if we got.

rid of Medicare Advantage-- because we're. doing these things. JON STEWART: And that's privatized. For people who don't know, the Medicare Advantage. is a privatized part of the system. BERNIE SANDERS: Right. Which is eating away at traditional Medicare. So if you had an efficient Medicare system that covered. all basic health care needs, it was. run in an administratively-effective. way, which--. what would the people say? You'd say, hey, that's great. I want to use that to cover all the kids and everybody else.

There are people here who that's. their nightmare, that you have an efficient government. Because ultimately, they want virtually every part. of American society, including public education, including. health care, to be privatized. And they're moving rapidly in that direction, by the way. JON STEWART: How do you remove those barriers, Senator? Because let's take health care as an example, because I think. it's a great one to think about the system here. You can't really use the market system, because it's not like you're going to comparison shop.

If you have a heart attack in a Starbucks, and, like, they're going to drive you to where they drive you. And you're going to have to pay whatever you're going to pay. But the ACA, which was set up to sort of bring more health. care to people--. which fundamentally you'd think, well, that's-- that's a great idea. But ultimately, it's kind of a government subsidy to. private insurance companies. BERNIE SANDERS: Exactly what it is. It's a Republican idea. JON STEWART: Right. What is the barrier from making a more efficient change? Is it purely that these other companies object?

BERNIE SANDERS: Look, I have, you know, ran for president two times on the need for a Medicare. for all, single payer program. OK? So it exists in Canada right now. Does it-- do they have their problem? Everybody has a problem. But understand that, when we talk about health care, Jon, it's not only that 60,000 people a year die because they. don't get to a doctor. It's not only that our life expectancy. is lower than other countries. It's not only the working class people.

in this country live seven or eight years. shorter lives than the rich. It's not only that we pay the highest prices in the world. for prescription drugs. You add all that together. Guess what? We're paying twice as much per person. for health care than the Canadians. and people around the world, twice as much! Why is that? Well, obviously. What is the function of the health care system? Is it to provide quality care to all? No. It is to make the drug companies and the insurance. companies rich? In that sense, it is succeeding very, very well.

And they will fight you to the death, fight you to the death, to give up that lucrative industry. So, you know, basically, I think what we should do. is make Medicare more efficient, expand it, and then gradually cover all of our people. through a Medicare program. Get rid of the profiteering. Get rid of the billing. Get rid of the complexity. My wife has a PhD. She goes crazy trying to figure out our health care bills--.

right--. arguing with the insurance companies, et cetera. JON STEWART: Right. BERNIE SANDERS: That's what you want to do. Can you do that? If you did that, Jon--. getting back to our original discussion--. you'd restore a lot of faith in democracy and in government. JON STEWART: Well, that's the key issue, Senator. Because I think, right now, the question. is, how does government--. if people trust corporate interests to deliver services. to them better than they do the-- the government. has to find a way to be competitive.

And the example, again in-- in health care, man--. I remember when the Obama administration, when he was running for president, they set up a state-of-the-art digital team that, you know, got information and-- and emails, and everything, and text messages--. I'd be taking a bath and it would. somehow show up in the water. Give me money. You know, and it was state of the art. And this same group designed a website. that you couldn't log on to. So why is it when they do it for campaigns,

and financing, and fundraising, it works like a charm. And when they do it for the people, for health care, the thing's a disaster. What's the difference? BERNIE SANDERS: Well--. JON STEWART: Regulation? BERNIE SANDERS: Nah, I wouldn't use the word regulation. It is-- what we need are people entering government who believe. that it is important-- are proud to say, you know, I work for this agency, that agency. And this is what we're doing.

And we're doing it in an efficient, cost-effective, quality way. We have beaten down government for so many years. that it is hard even to attract those people. into the bureaucracy. JON STEWART: But the bureaucracy, to be fair, is responsible for some of this. They layer in--. I mean, it's-- when you talk about homelessness, really. hard to build new housing. You know, Josh Shapiro in Pennsylvania, there's a giant fire on 95, the road collapses.

If you had gone through standard regulatory proceedings. of the government, the damn thing would still be closed. He did it in 10 days, because he said, screw it. I'm not going to do this the way we normally do it. BERNIE SANDERS: Good. And that is-- we need more of that. JON STEWART: That kind of thinking. BERNIE SANDERS: What the right wing will do. is say, oh, we don't need all these regulations. And therefore, we don't have to worry about the environment. We don't have to worry about bigotry and racism. I don't believe in that. But it shouldn't take you 28 years to go-- to make sure.

that a project is environmentally. sound, for example. So you're right. I mean, they can use that as an-- but I. want to get back to this point. I'll give you an example. I read something which, to me, was. surprising and a bit shocking. Question to you-- are you are a PhD candidate--. JON STEWART: Oh, we're already off the rails, Senator. BERNIE SANDERS: All right. JON STEWART: We're already off the rails. BERNIE SANDERS: --in a major university. in physics and mathematics. OK? You're working on your PhD.

Where are you going to go when you get that PhD? What are you going to do? JON STEWART: I'm assuming you're. going to stay in the same building. and teach the next people that are coming up with a PhD. BERNIE SANDERS: Yeah, that's what most people would think. But you know what? More and more of those folks in math and physics, they're going to Wall Street. JON STEWART: Oh. BERNIE SANDERS: They're using those skills. for high-speed trading, to know how to manipulate the market, take advantage of the market. It takes a certain skill to do that. I mean, again, it gets back to money being. the end all of everything.

And I want to see us have a day come when somebody says, I am so excited. And by the way, in Finland, to some degree, they do that. Only the top students end up going into education. Do you know that, in Finland? JON STEWART: No. BERNIE SANDERS: They do. It's a very prestigious job to be a teacher. I want to see that in America. Hey, I'm really proud to work at the Social. Security Administration. We're getting the benefits out on time. People are really excited and happy about it--. proud of what I'm doing. I want to see that pride.

And I don't want to see young people. just going out and saying, I got. to make more and more money. That's what life is about. JON STEWART: But so much of that. is about making work, not just the dignity of work, but the efficacy of work. You have to have your labor rewarded with a life that. is not so tenuous and on the edge of, you know, paycheck to paycheck. And-- BERNIE SANDERS: You got it. JON STEWART: It's about changing. You know, we've had 50 years where labor has been devalued, and capital has been given free reign.

And every time you bring that up, they always. say, oh, yeah, I guess, you know, unions are the only answer. It can't be just that the workers are. responsible for getting their own lobbyists to go up. against corporate interests. They have to find a way to be allowed to tap. into that revenue stream--. BERNIE SANDERS: Absolutely. JON STEWART: --that is being generated. BERNIE SANDERS: All right, two things. JON STEWART: Yes. BERNIE SANDERS: Shawn Fain is the head of the UAW. And in my view, he's doing a great job. And not only did he win a very good contract for his workers,

he raised issues which are now resonating. all over the country. And one of the issues he raised is he said, you guys are making huge profits. You've made huge profits over the years. And meanwhile, many of my workers--. you had young people coming into the automobile factories. making 17, 18 bucks an hour. CEOs are making $25, $30 million a year. All right. And then he raised this question. He said, you know what? We want a 32-hour workweek.

That was part of his contract negotiations. And everyone said, Sean, you're crazy. What are you talking, about a 32-hour workweek? And his point was, we are producing. more product right now. And all of those gains are going to the people on top. JON STEWART: That's right. BERNIE SANDERS: I introduced the bill, Jon, for a 32-hour workweek. I was shocked. I walked the streets. I'm in the airport. People coming over to me. And you know why? People are stressed out. They're seeing work in a very negative way.

COVID maybe, you know, exemplified that, what happened during COVID. So what we have got to be asking ourselves--. and you're touching on it now. All right, you got all this new technology, artificial intelligence, robotics. making us more productive. Who's going to benefit from that? What are the repercussions of that? Are workers now going to have higher. wages, shorter working hours? Or are the rich going to get richer? JON STEWART: Senator, I'm going to tell you an anecdote. I think you'll-- you'll--. I was speaking with-- and again, since we're not.

mentioning names here--. one of the big muckety mucks of artificial intelligence. and creating these new machine learning. models and all those things. And he was telling me, you don't understand. These machines have already sucked up the entirety. of human knowledge. They did that-- we passed that a few years ago. They're working on, now, going further than all that. And I said, in the way that globalization decimated.

our manufacturing base to-- to the extent that we still. haven't recovered-- and we've tried to make various changes--. aren't you worried that AI--. I mean, that was a-- globalization was. a change that took decades. Industrialization was a change that took decades--. still incredibly disruptive, created. a lot of collateral damage. AI is going to do that to white collar work. and to all kinds of other things in the span of months,

in the-- like, that's going to be cataclysmic. And he goes-- he sat for a second. And he goes, ah, we'll be OK. [LAUGHTER]. BERNIE SANDERS: He will be OK. JON STEWART: We'll be OK. BERNIE SANDERS: He will be--. he will be more than OK. But millions of workers will not be OK. [LAUGHTER]. JON STEWART: Yeah, it's really true. Are you finding common ground with the Senate? You know, I have never been more frustrated than when I had.

to deal with the Senate through that--. when we were going with the PACT Act and the Zadroga bill. One of the things that-- that really. struck me was all the arcane kinds. of Robert's Rules of Order that are used against getting. things done. It seems there's always a rule that can keep you. And I'll give you the example. We finally passed that PACT Act through the Senate, right? And we had-- I think it was a 72 to 14.

It was really, for this Congress, overwhelming. BERNIE SANDERS: Yeah. Right. JON STEWART: The parliamentarian. in the House flagged one--. one provision in the PACT Act concerning the use. of rural doctors offices. Just in case there are people that live far from a VA. hospital, the VA would take over these rural doctors. offices so that they could have access.

The parliamentarian ruled that--. that violated the House of Representatives' ability to--. that you were levying a tax or you were doing. something that wasn't allowed. We had to redo it in the House. When it went back to the Senate, it failed--. having nothing to do with that little, stupid, bureaucratic little flag. And these people had to sleep on the steps of the Capitol.

to get this thing through in the Senate again. How-- it was--. I was so dispirited by that. BERNIE SANDERS: Well, the Senate. rules are something else. I mean, now you're-- you're touching. on another hour discussion, which we don't have the time. JON STEWART: We'll do it next time. This will--. BERNIE SANDERS: Look, I can singlehandedly go down there. and slow up the whole institution. I can block legislation. It could be 99 to 1. I could slow it up. Does that make any sense? No, It doesn't.

Now you're getting into the whole issue of the filibuster. I had a similar experience--. not with the PACT Act, which I strongly supported--. with minimum wage. I wanted to get my--. raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour, put it into the American Rescue Plan. The parliamentarian decided that it was, you know, not kosher to get in the bill. So we weren't able to put it in--. too much power to an unelected official. JON STEWART: Right. And even with the elected officials, I can remember-- you know, the Senate leader at the time was.

was Schumer. And I said-- you know, we were--. we were coming up on that Christmas. break or summer break. And I said, can we get this on the floor? I don't know, because then they'll be allowed. to ask for an amendment. And if they do an amendment, each one is two hours. And they're just going to try and run out the clock on us. BERNIE SANDERS: So you're touching on-- you know, again--. and it takes 60 votes to pass anything. JON STEWART: Right. BERNIE SANDERS: There are ways around these things. And--. JON STEWART: That's my point, ways around it. BERNIE SANDERS: Yeah. There are budget reconciliation. We passed-- you know, I know people are hard on the.

Biden administration. But they accomplished a lot. JON STEWART: Right. BERNIE SANDERS: And I want people. to remember what happened in '21 in the middle of COVID. We passed the American Rescue Plan, which I helped write. It was a $1.9 trillion bill, which, remember, got those $1,400 checks into virtually every working class. home in America, extended unemployment, saved child care, small business, et cetera, et cetera. You could do that through what is. called budget reconciliation. It's a huge bill, requires 50 votes, not 60.

But, yeah. JON STEWART: Senator, I want to end on that. I want to end on the lesson. Because you brought up the Rescue Plan and COVID. In 2008, in the financial crisis, the government decided to use its might. to bail out AIG and the other big corporations. And they did it at the corporate level. And they did it at the supply side level. And we had a massive recession. People lost their homes.

People were out of work. During COVID, the government decided to help. people at the personal level. Surely that left an imprint on the government to show, if you deliver for people in the moment, you have a better outcome. BERNIE SANDERS: Jon, that's--. I've given those lines in many, many speeches. And what I've said is, you think government can't.

do anything, look what we did. That one bill, Jon, in a three-year period reduced--. among many other things--. childhood poverty by 40%. Got it? That was one small provision in a larger bill. We saved the pensions for millions of workers--. one small provision in that bill. When people were lining up for food, we got them $1,400 checks. For childcare centers, small businesses were going--. was it a perfect bill?

Obviously not. But your point, when there was a will-- and Biden. deserves credit for that. He was all there. When there is a will to do the right thing, we can do it. We can do it. Government can do it. But there has to be the will to stand up for working. class people in this country. JON STEWART: So, Senator Sanders, an absolute pleasure. talking to you, sir. I love your passion. I love how you've been out there raising this alarm. for your entire public life.

And I really do appreciate. BERNIE SANDERS: Well, and I appreciate, Jon, all that you're doing. You know, we've got a corporate media out there. That's a whole other issue. It doesn't talk about the most important issues you do. Thank you for doing that. JON STEWART: Thank you, sir, and a pleasure to see you. Hopefully, I'll get a chance to see you soon. BERNIE SANDERS: OK, take care. JON STEWART: Bye. Bye. [THEME MUSIC]. Bernie, Senator Bernie Sanders. I feel like that was almost like an episode of Comedians. in Cars Talking Economics. It was-- there's just something that's so--.

two Jews in a deli going, and another thing. about the workers. But-- but boy, really appreciate. his insights, his fight, all those different things. I hope you guys did, too. I really enjoyed that conversation with the Senator. I want to make sure--. obviously, we have our socials. We're-- apparently, we're on Bluesky. We have to go to Bluesky. So we're also on the Bluesky. I think the handle @weeklyshowpodcast.

I don't know if there's an @, or a hashtag, or a--. I don't actually know how it works. I just know I tried to log on to it once, and there was no trending topics. And I just got sad and logged off. But that's because I'm an old man, and everything has to be exactly as it was. Thank you, all, very much for listening today. As always, I want to thank our fabulous team. We didn't have time to talk to everybody today--. but lead producer Lauren Walker, producer Brittany.

Mehmedovic, video editor and engineer Rob Vitolo, audio editor and engineer Nicole Boyce, researcher and associate producer Jillian Speer, and our executive producers Chris McShane, Katie Gray. I think we got another pod in us until the end of the year. And we look forward to that. I guess we'll try and do maybe a little bit more. of a wrap-up show. So if you guys want to send in your questions. about what I did wrong this year, please feel free. And we'll call it Come at Me, Bro, Come at Me! And we'll see if we can settle all those things.

Thanks very much. See you next week. [THEME MUSIC]. The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart. is a Comedy Central podcast. It's produced by Paramount Audio and Busboy Productions. [THEME MUSIC].