Israel, Iran and Trump’s Incompetence | The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart

JON STEWART: We're in such a bizarro world. You've got me nodding my head to Tucker Carlson videos. Yeah, he's-- you got Tucker Carlson going, why are we. going to war with Iran again? And I'm like, yeah, you tell him, brother. [MUSIC PLAYING]. Hello, everybody. Welcome once again to The Weekly Show podcast. My name is Jon Stewart. And I will be the host--. the host today of your podcast as we.

find ourselves in a unbelievably fraught moment. in a crossroads of history. And I think I want to talk just a very. brief moment about the president. of the United States, his--. Donald Aloysius Trump. You know, you hear a lot about his grifting and the corruption. and the meme coin and the authoritarian tendencies. and the overuse of executive action.

and his militaristic fetishizing of, you know, bringing troops into American cities. and ripping families apart and just. the general moral decay and abyss. that we find ourselves living through. But I-- boy, I have to say, I just don't think we talk. enough about the incompetence. I just-- like, the just rank shittiness of how they. accomplish things and the price we are.

paying for his inability to--. it's as though everything that occurs on the world stage. is just another weekly episode of his program. What's this week's episode? Liberation day and tariffs. Great. Let's do that. Oh, hey, it's tanking the bond market, and everybody is freaking out. Oh, great. Yeah, no, that's the plan. Now we're just gonna give everybody 90 days. And then he comes on and goes, everybody's kissing my ass.

to make deals, but nobody seems to be making any fucking deals. And so then we just move on to the next episode. Oh, this week's episode is we're. gonna go in with the military to Los Angeles, because that's exploding in chaos and violence, even though it's not. And God, if anybody you know has experience dealing. with unrest in Los Angeles, it's. the people that-- the cops that already live there. And now it's Iran. And it's this-- hey, it's the Iran episode.

And I gave him 60 days because I'm the deal maker in chief. And we're gonna have a nuclear deal. And this is all going according to plan. And it's utter incompetence. We're in such a bizarro world. You've got me nodding my head to Tucker Carlson videos. You got Tucker Carlson going, why are we. going to war with Iran again? And I'm like, yeah, you tell him, brother.

Like, that's how fucking upside down we. find ourselves in this moment. And it's all based on one distinct premise. And that is we are being led by someone who doesn't. know what they're doing. And out of DOGE has a skeleton staff of, you know, utility infielders that are just out there with eight.

different jobs each. And nobody has any follow through and wherewithal. to get things done. And if anything does get done, it. will be a happy accident, not because of the judicious plan. that was put into place by a fifth level Jedi chess master. That's bullshit. And the chaos right now on the world stage. is a direct function of that incompetence.

[LAUGHS] And I mean, we're lucky that we've got great--. we're gonna talk about Iran and everything that's going on. And I'm so happy to have our two guests today. that can discuss this, because they are both really well. versed in everything that is going on, in the immediacy. of it and in the past of it. So let's get to them right now. [MUSIC PLAYING]. So in this incredibly fraught moment, we're awfully lucky today to be speaking with Ben Rhodes, who's. the co-host of Pod Save the World.

and a former deputy national security advisor to President. Obama, and Christiane Amanpour, CNN's. chief international anchor, host. of the new podcast Christiane and the X. Files with Jamie Rubin. Ben and Christiane, thank you so much for joining us. This is such a fraught moment. And, Christiane, I want to start with you because you. have just had-- you know, you we've been hearing from Israel. We've been hearing from the United States. We've been hearing from a variety of sources. You have just gotten off with a discussion. with the deputy foreign minister in Iran.

So if I could very quickly, Christiane, what is the viewpoint from Iran right now? CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Well, I'm gonna. download quickly because I've literally. just come off the set. And just to give you a context, it's very difficult. Their internet, because of these strikes, are very compromised. Their phones are very compromised. Obviously you can see there have. been targeted assassination of leaders by the Israelis. They have wiped out a whole layer of military leadership. And people are scared about using their phones.

So just to get this was quite extraordinary. And I didn't ask exactly where he was, and he didn't want to tell me. But nonetheless, in Tehran--. JON STEWART: Don't imagine he would. Yeah. CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Right. So in response to what President Trump has been. saying, like, I demand unconditional surrender, you know, that we could get your Supreme leader, Ayatollah Khomeini, if we decided, I might not. He's also just been saying, Trump, I might. join Israel on these strikes. I might not. There's just a lot of mixed messages coming out,

and I'm not sure what Trump intends. But he said, the deputy Iranian foreign minister, that, look, we do not buckle under threats. And it's very boilerplate Iran commentary. But it happens to be, you know, true based on history. He reminded me how they'd gone through eight years of war. with Iraq and Saddam Hussein, how the whole world was. not on their side, and how they emerged without surrendering. And he said the same here. He said, you know, Israel is trying to destroy them.

and that we will not surrender, and we will. continue to defend ourselves. But he did say--. and I think Ben would be interested in this--. that we thought we were going to a negotiation on. Sunday, June 15 in Oman. I was and my bosses were headed that way. And then two days before, out of the blue, we were attacked across the country. And he also said that civilian areas. were attacked and buildings and infrastructure as well as the. military and nuclear sites.

I happen to know this for a fact. I'm half Iranian. I grew up there. I know many of the locations. But importantly, I still have family and friends. So I'm listening to them. And there's a huge amount of panic. And it's very difficult for them right now. But that's the bottom line. JON STEWART: Well, Christiane, I so. appreciate that perspective. And we can get into a little later. the complicated relationship that so many. Iranians have with their government. and what's going on in there. But I want to jump in really quickly to go.

off of what Christiane said. In my mind, this is another example. of sort of the impulsive and strange. nature of our administration here in the United States. So the dealmaker in chief, the most wonderful negotiator. that's ever existed in the history of deal. making and shaking hands, is gonna. make a great deal with Iran. They've got 60 days, apparently, to do it because, as you know, the best. deals always come with only the amount of time.

you can make them. And then on day 61, they are attacked by Israel. Do either of you know whether or not the United States. was taken by surprise by that attack. or whether or not Iran had any idea that this 60 day so-called. limitation on negotiations was a hard red line that. would be met immediately with widespread bombing?

Do any of you have a sense that this was pure impulse. on the part of the Israelis, that this was coordinated, or that the 60 day negotiation was. a ruse by which to get the Iranians to drop their guard? Ben, I'll start with you. BEN RHODES: I just don't believe. that Trump was somehow--. first of all, I don't believe that the 60. day thing was a firm deadline. JON STEWART: And never understood to be. that, by the way. BEN RHODES: Yeah, because why would there be a meeting. set up with Steve Witkoff? But also the Iranians weren't acting like they.

were gonna be attacked. You know, they were not taking security precautions. That's how some of these people were able to be. killed in their homes. If they thought that day 61 was a potential military operation, they would've changed their pattern of behavior. more than they did. I think that Israel believed in--. Netanyahu believed more specifically. that they had a window of opportunity where. Iran's proxies had been dealt a blow, where Iran is. on the back foot, where they'd softened up their air defenses.

and some of those previous strikes. And he wanted to take this action. And frankly, the diplomacy that Trump was in. was a threat to their capacity to take military action. against the nuclear program. And so he does it after the 60 day thing. That gives him some pretext to say, I let this diplomacy go. They have not even really presented, like, any kind of detailed intelligence. case that suggests an imminence of Iran. having a nuclear weapon. He said the kind of same things he always does. JON STEWART: He's been doing that for about 30 years now, I believe.

BEN RHODES: He's been-- yeah, he's playing the hits. JON STEWART: They're coming tomorrow. They got it tomorrow. BEN RHODES: This is the problem is nobody can credibly. say that, like, if they didn't do this today, Iran was gonna do something tomorrow. The only thing that was looming was. this Witkoff meeting in Oman. And Trump, I think, has been hurriedly trying. to get on board with what is happening. to him in terms of Netanyahu having changed the dynamic. And he doesn't want to admit that he. just got rolled by Netanyahu. And now he's being rolled all the way potentially. into joining the war, you know?

We can talk about all the different dimensions of that. I can tell you, Jon, that as someone who's. been in simulations of what would happen. in precisely this scenario--. JON STEWART: When you say been in simulations, what do you mean by that? BEN RHODES: It means essentially you war game. out what would happen if the Israelis bombed. the Iranian nuclear facilities. JON STEWART: So these are sort of AI generated. or computer simulated. Here's where the casualties would be. Here's what would occur. BEN RHODES: Or people run them. You know, people can run them who. know a lot about this stuff. It always leads to Israel asking the United.

States to bomb this facility. And it almost always leads to regime change in Iran. because it's like, well, why would we stop now, you know? And so we're on the-- people have been thinking. about this for a long time. And we're on the ride right now. And the question is, can we get off? JON STEWART: Right. And the facility you're talking about. is that one nuclear facility that. is buried in a mountain that apparently can. only be reached by United States. bunker busting weaponry, yes? Fordew, I believe it's called? BEN RHODES: Fordow.

And for all the talk about how sophisticated the Israeli. operation has been, if you don't blow up Fordow, you've only set the Iranian nuclear program back, like, a few months. And so obviously, they're gonna want. us to get the underground facility that only we can hit. We are the only people that have a bunker buster bomb that. can get at that facility, the only people that. have planes that can drop it. And frankly, we don't even know that it. would destroy it entirely. That's how deep underground this thing is. JON STEWART: Right. CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: In answer to your question, Jon, about did the Iranians know. they had a 60 day deadline, no, according.

to the deputy foreign minister. JON STEWART: Well, I mean, they were all gonna meet in Oman, I mean, on day 63. So what's the point? CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Well, right. And Ben will remember that it took, I don't know, 18 months to get the Obama administration-- called. the JCPOA, the nuclear deal--. that was a perfectly reasonable and manageable and. verifiable arms control deal. JON STEWART: Signed off on, by the way, by the world's other countries--. Russia, China. CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: By the UN. Exactly. Yeah. JON STEWART: I mean, this was not. a bilateral deal between the United States and Iran.

This was a multilateral. CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Exactly. But the key here, and Ben alluded to it, is that Prime Minister Netanyahu has. never believed in negotiation. Just like he does not believe in a Palestinian state, he does not believe in negotiating security. around Iran's nuclear program. He believes in wiping it out and regime destruction, as we've just been mentioning. But there has been successful diplomacy. They all say, oh, diplomacy failed. But no, in 2015, under the Obama administration,

actually it succeeded. And then there was this concerted campaign. to topple it. And that's what caused Trump to pull. out of it when he was in 1.0. So Trump pulling out of this nuclear deal. set the Iran's off on, you know, more enrichment. So now they have hundreds of kilograms of 60% enrichment. as part of a bargaining technique. or to show their capability. But even the American intelligence. community-- and Tulsi Gabbard said it again this week. We assess that they have not made a decision to go to a bomb.

or to weaponize and that even if they did, it would take a number of years. She was slapped around by Trump. And now she says, oh, no, I have no daylight. between me and Trump. So it's all very confusing. [MUSIC PLAYING]. JON STEWART: So you guys are familiar with websites, right? Ground News is a website, and it's also an app. And they're on a mission. They're gonna give readers an easier, data driven.

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understanding the matrix. Do you understand? See the zeros and ones. Do it. [MUSIC PLAYING]. In 2015, you know, after that deal was signed, when Trump. pulled out in I believe-- what was it, 2018, I think when they did that? Was that at the behest of Israel as well? Or were there other forces that had asked or was. that merely a knee jerk reaction to anything. that Obama did, I will undo, and therefore.

I'm gonna pull out? Do you know what the lead up to pulling. out of that deal entailed? BEN RHODES: I would say it was a convergence of those factors, that Trump wanted to dismantle anything Obama did, but that Israel and kind of hawkish types in the US. wanted us out of the deal from the day we were in it. I think what's important to note, Jon, about that is that Trump wanted to find that Iran was. not complying with the deal. And if you recall, he kept asking for that report.

And his own administration, including guys like Jim Mattis, you know, his secretary of defense, kept saying, well, no, actually Iran. is complying with this deal. You shouldn't pull out. And then ultimately, he kind of overruled his more, you know, conventional but still. hawkish advisors to pull out. But I think it was, you know, Trump's instinct was, I'm just going to get out of whatever deal Obama was. in, because the deal that he was negotiating with Witkoff. sounded very similar to the JCPOA, the Iran deal. JON STEWART: Of course.

BEN RHODES: You know, he wasted a decade on this. and, frankly, led us to a place where. we might end up in a war because. of that antipathy for Obama. JON STEWART: Christiane, is that your understanding. of how things went down? CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Yes. You know, you could say, if you wanted to be really generous, that Witcoff had come up with another plan. and it was about this sort of consortium. whereby they would try to let Iran say that it could still. enrich but maybe not right on Iranian soil. but maybe in an island. Anyway, it was to try to thread all the needles, to go.

into another deal that was not exactly Obama's deal, but it was similar. But it had this thing which said Iran cannot enrich. So how were they going to resolve that, because Iran believes that to be. their fundamental international right? And so that was what was being worked out. JON STEWART: Especially given that Israel. has nuclear weapons. And America has-- and everyone else has nuclear weapons. And North Korea has--. CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Well, that's the thing, Jon. Jon, you just hit on something really, really vital,

because one of the unintended consequences--. and there are always unintended consequences in a war that. is not planned out, in a war that has no exit strategy, in a war that has actually no big strategy. other than let's set back or maybe let's have regime change. Some say that if this regime survives that they will then--. it will be a self-fulfilling prophecy, that they may, like North Korea, decide to go in secret, to get out. of the IAEA, the NPT, the inspections,

and actually to become a nuclear power because they've. been shown by Israel that their conventional weapons. are useless. JON STEWART: Not enough of a deterrent. CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: And this shadow war--. yeah. So it could have a kind of a worse negative impact. JON STEWART: And I want to step back for a second. and talk about the macro idea of risk assessment. within this world. The one thing about Israel that I truly do not understand. is this idea of they won't live in a world of risk. But we live in a world of risk. There is no zero risk.

It's this idea of if there is one suicide attack that is done. by a Palestinian, well, then we must remove Hamas, or we must wage war until we are safe. And that just seems like a fundamentally flawed--. the United States certainly lives in a world of risk. Russia has nuclear weapons. China has nuclear weapons. North Korea has nuclear weapons. They have all expressed at different times. antipathy towards the United States or a desire.

to use them, in North Korea's case, against the United States. So this idea that we can create a world where there is no risk, it seems that what they create is a world of instability. where everything is at risk. BEN RHODES: Yes. JON STEWART: And so I just want to get. at the underlying fundamental principle that is being. deployed here that's causing such destruction in Gaza. and all of this death as though you can create a world.

of no risk through violence. It makes no sense to me. Ben, what is your thought on that larger principle? BEN RHODES: I think you put your finger on it. There's two things I'd say about this, because the first is that there's. been an Iranian nuclear program for decades. And Israel has lived with that. And Israel has done quite well in that world, right? And what we were trying to do is put a lid on that program. and make sure they can't get a weapon. The risk is them having a nuclear weapon. JON STEWART: Transparency and verification. BEN RHODES: Yeah. Them having a nuclear weapon, now, that's.

a different level of risk. But them having a few centrifuges operating--. if you have transparency, verification, you. got inspectors all over there, you're. looking at the whole supply chain, like, that's a level of risk that you. should be able to live with. And my concern is in trying to remove all risk, Israel is creating more risk for itself. in the sense of if you--. JON STEWART: For everybody. BEN RHODES: For everybody. If you remove that government through violence, it doesn't-- we saw in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya in the Obama years, you. get something usually worse. You either get the IRGC, the worst guys with guns in Iran, will be the strongest guys.

Or you get kind of a failed state civil war. in a country of over 90 million people. with no plan for what comes next. You also could get a situation where, you know, even what we've seen in Gaza, do we really think. that's gonna bring meaningful, quote unquote, "peace" over time? JON STEWART: Or that you can bomb a people out. of wanting to be free. BEN RHODES: Yeah. JON STEWART: What if Netanyahu decides he's actually. the biggest threat to Israel? Does he have to bomb himself at that point? BEN RHODES: Well, but this leads to the second point. I was gonna make, because we can get into, like, they're creating enemies for the future.

One of the things I hate about our discourse on this stuff. is if the negative consequences don't happen next week, it's like, well, look. See? That worked. Well, wars usually-- like, the price comes due 5 years, 10 years out, right? Iraq took a while. It looked great when the statue fell in Baghdad, right? But the second thing I think that's important. here is they're changing the nature--. a country that does what they're doing in Gaza. or a country they've now gone to war in Gaza, the West Bank, Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, Iran. That's not healthy.

And their society is moving to the far right. I think there's a synergy between what you're doing. abroad with violence and the kind of government. you have at home. And so it's not just the risks of their foreign policy. It's the risks of what this is doing to Israeli society. and democracy, because-- JON STEWART: Right. What does it turn you into? BEN RHODES: I have people I know who are like hawks. And they're like, well, I don't like what Netanyahu's doing. with democracy in Israel. But I support, you know, all these other things he's doing. I'm like, no, those things are connected. [LAUGHS] He's consolidating what.

feels like a far right extremist, you know, political system in Israel. JON STEWART: And a dehumanization of anybody that. is-- and you bring up such an interesting point. And, Christiane, I want to get to this with you. It talks about the unforeseen consequences that. roil future events that don't seem. to be connected years later. And I want to go back to this because people. don't talk about this enough. In 1953, the CIA, along with British Petroleum and the UK. government, overthrew Mohammad Mosaddegh, who was the democratically elected leader of Iran.

They destabilized that country, allowed the Shah of Iran. to gain control for so-called because he. was Western friendly. Did we not sow the seeds for this entire nightmare ourselves. in 1953 to some extent? CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: As you know, that coup was the first of America's many. coups throughout the '50s and '60s and even into the '70s. In Africa, you know, Lumumba was killed.

In Central America, all over in Brazil, they supported military dictatorships. It was a dreadful, dreadful time. And it all backfired against the US. In fact, it's said--. and I was there during this, the 1978-79 Iranian revolution. They brought this up over and over and over again. This is one of the reasons that they were motivated. to, you know, rebel and rise up against the Shah. and also to essentially blame the United.

States in great part. Now, we've moved many, many decades on from that. And I think the high point was the 2015 JCPOA, because it's. a very difficult relationship. And the United States and Iran were not yet ready to address. all the issues. But I can tell you from my own personal perspective. that as a reporter, I met with all these top level Iranians. for decades, ever since 1995. I was the first into the nuclear plant that. was a civilian nuclear plant called.

Bushehr on the Persian Gulf. I'm the first and the only one to have interviewed almost all. the Iranian presidents, including the so-called. reform presidents. Over these decades, many, many officials. have said to me, background, you. know, off the record and this and that, and even on camera. that they wanted to make--. peace maybe not the right word, but to close. the file of conflict with the United States on all issues--. on terrorism, on missiles, on nuclear and everything.

But they wanted to get into negotiations. But as Ben knows, this was scuttled many times. by hardliners in the United States, hardliners in Iran, and hardliners in Israel. So that was never possible. So the JCPOA was the single--. the only major negotiation that came out of 40 years. of this Iranian revolution. As you know, nobody in the world. wants to see a nuclear armed Iran. Iran says it doesn't want a nuclear weapon. Intelligence says it hasn't got one right now.

It hasn't made a decision to get one. There was a time-- and again, I was in conversation. with a senior Iranian during the post. 9/11 time in Afghanistan. And this Iranian called me in. And he said, because, you know, there was the whole invasion. of Iraq and all the rest of it based on a fear. that they had weapons of mass destruction, which proved not to be true. And we know the backlash. But this Iranian told me, yes, we. did have a serious discussion in the leadership about.

whether we should weaponize. But then we decided not to because that would make it much. more dangerous for us in the region. and in our very dangerous neighborhood. So they decided not to. And that's what intelligence says. Since 2003, there's no evidence of that. So I think that this is a really difficult situation. between Iran, Israel, and the United. States that requires not Trump saying, I can fix it in 60 days, or--. what did he say? Overnight between Russia and Ukraine or fix Gaza.

It requires staffing, experts, technical expertise, and patience to negotiate. JON STEWART: Christiane, he's got one guy. Witkoff must be a platinum miles member right now. He's got one guy. Marco Rubio is doing five different--. he's like the secretary of state, the NSA. I think he's the ombudsman. He's the parliamentarian now for the Senate. Like, they are understaffed. They DOGEd themselves out of having any ability to carry out. the complexity of the tasks that they.

need to be carried out. And so these are all shortcuts. And it seems like the easiest thing. to subvert in the world is peace. It seems like, as Ben talked earlier-- and Ben, I want to ask you this because it's hard liners can easily--. if we remember in Iraq, Hans Blix had gone in. And they were going to be inspecting. all the sites that had supposed weapons of mass destruction. And we had a process in place that would've avoided the chaos. and carnage of those 20 years in Iraq, in Afghanistan,

all those places. And it was easily subverted. Ben, how fragile are these moves towards a more. stable, peaceful world when hard liners. are involved in the room? BEN RHODES: The problem is our politics in this country is so. messed up on national security that it was much harder to get. the Iran deal through Congress than it was to take. this country to war in Iraq.

JON STEWART: Why is that, Ben, when you say it's. harder to get that peace deal through than war? What is messed up about it? BEN RHODES: Well, first of all, peace-- we. could have a long conversation about all the factors that. influence American politics. But I would just say peace is inherently messy, right? Like, the Iran nuclear deal, sure. Like, it didn't remove the entire Iranian nuclear program. So it's easy to kind of shoot at a target of, like--. this is a compromise. This is a deal between adversaries. You make peace with your adversaries. You know, these are bad people. Why are you even talking to these people?

Well, you know, because you make peace with the bad guys. JON STEWART: Right. Sort of how it works. Right. BEN RHODES: It's not hard to make a deal with the UK. Like, you know, even Trump could do that. Whereas a war, you kind of promise. that it's gonna look good. And we're gonna take out these bad guys. And actually, it usually looks good at the beginning. of the war, right? JON STEWART: Right. Right. BEN RHODES: You know, at the beginning, it's like, oh, look, the Israelis are killing all these guys. And wow, Mossad had drones in Tehran. Isn't that cool?

But to your point, the coup in 1953 looked pretty good. You know? It was like, wow, we got our guy back in there. And now that Iranian oil and gas is flowing, there's no war-- no concern about them. being on the wrong side of the Cold War, you know? Well, you know, 1979, it didn't look good. And so I think that the problem is. we are so short term in our thinking and our response. And I'll fault the Democratic Party here. You can sense the kind of fear in some. of these Democratic politicians right now. It's like, well, if I oppose this Israeli military strike.

or oppose the US getting involved, you know, am I picking a fight with Netanyahu? Or will I be called weak? Maybe this strike is gonna look good. And then Trump's gonna, like, say, I'm weak. Stand for something. If we haven't learned anything from the last 25 years, we've learned that violence in the Middle East. is unlikely to lead to better outcomes. And certainly the violent removal. of governments by the United States or Israel, for that matter, is gonna lead to a better government. Like, I don't know how many countries.

we have to try that out in before we learn. that that is not what works. And so I think, you know, opponents. need to simplify the message. And Christiane will remember, she can attest. When we said in the Obama years that it's either. this deal or a war, we were called, you know, how dare you say that. Well, that was the case, because either you're. gonna have a deal over this nuclear program, or Israel was gonna do something like this. and try to get the United States involved in that war. That's where Trump is now. Trump is either gonna join this war, or he's gonna try to stop it. And that is such a consequential choice.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: And I think you guys saw. this in your administration. Netanyahu, as I said, has been trying to do this for decades. No other American president allowed him to do it. Everyone restrained him. He came to Congress and was given. the floor to address Republicans practically. only to dis the JCPOA. He did-- JON STEWART: He had charts. I think he even went to Kinko's and got some bomb charts. He drew little pictures. BEN RHODES: Cartoon bombs. JON STEWART: Yeah. CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Yeah. I mean, it's an absolute now successful. strategy against negotiations and against getting a deal.

And I think that this is-- you know, you talk about peace. It is hard. But look at what the US was able to do, for instance, with the parties in Northern Ireland. Look at what the South Africans were. able to do after apartheid. Look at any number. Look at Oslo. I know Oslo has not come to fruition, and we wish. we were back in the mid '90s. But that was, you know, all sides getting together. with really vested, honest brokers and third parties,

whether it was the US, whether it was the Oslo negotiators. And the parties on the ground decided to come, and they got the help to move towards peace. Bosnia. I mean, it's not perfect. But after-- you know, I covered that war. There was a US brokered end. And you know, it's tenuous, but it's not back to war. And so it is possible. Politicians and leaders have to decide whether they want. to do that or whether they want to react in this kind of easier.

way, as Ben was laying out. And, you know, whatever you might say about President Biden. and about should he have restrained Israel more given. what's going on in Gaza, on the day that he landed. in Israel after October 7 and the horrors that. were committed there, he told them, don't do what we did in Iraq. Don't go for revenge. Look what it's going to-- look what happened to us. You know, self-defense. But don't go crazy like we did in Iraq,

because look at the blowback. And it's been severe. JON STEWART: Why do you think that politicians are more. likely to be OK owning the years of instability and chaos. that occurs from these types of military interventions, but they are afraid to own whatever. even singular incidents might be the result of peace? In other words, no politician seems. to want to make the peace deal if there might be.

a suicide bombing that occurs. I'm not suggesting that that's a wonderful outcome. But they seem much more willing to own the years of instability. and the long term deleterious effects of these kinds. of interventions than they would have the courage. that when you make peace, peace is not oftentimes. final, idealized serenity.

There will be spasms of violence within that. Is that the fear that they have? They don't want to own those outcomes? Or is that not in the calculation? Ben, you know. You were in the room when these things were going on. I'm only saying that in a way of, like, you know, in Israel, the only person-- when they tried to make peace, there were assassinations. Sadat was assassinated. Rabin was assassinated. You know, that's how things roll. But if you make peace, if you shake hands, and then there's a bombing, now suddenly everybody says, see?

You never should've done that. But nobody goes back and says, this. is a nightmare of instability. BEN RHODES: I think that this has. been a huge issue in American politics for a long time. And again, it comes back to the point that he's--. like LBJ, even though it was evident in 1965. that, you know, we were unlikely to defeat North. Vietnam in South Vietnam, right, that the Vietnamese people didn't want us there,

that the South Vietnamese government was corrupt, he was afraid of, you know, essentially pulling. out and being told, well, look, this guy, you know, he wasn't tough enough. to stand up to these guys. And because he escalated, he destroyed. his own capacity to do the Great Society, you know? So in other words, he was more afraid. of the much smaller cost. And I think part of--. I think the reason is, Jon, is that everybody. can see what the cost is going to be to doing the peace deal.

You're gonna be called weak by all these people. You know, there's gonna be holes in it. But what they don't see is that the costs are usually. deferred to doing the war. And again, so I think it interacts with this kind. of short term way in which we think about these things. in our politics. If you look at, you know, Israeli and Palestinian leaders. even, you know, Rabin is the only Israeli leader.

who was like, you know what? Like, I've fought in all these wars. And I'm gonna take this risk and make this peace. And guess what? He was assassinated, you know, by a right wing extremist, right? CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Yeah. BEN RHODES: And so sometimes people. are afraid to make peace because the peacemakers. have been targeted in some of these places too, right? So that's a more extreme version of getting. criticized politically. But in the US, I just think, you know, this default. to, like--.

you know, despite the fact that--. one other thing I want to say is that every American--. I worked for Obama in '08. He ran as the anti-war candidate. The American people keep telling us. through their elections who they want, the kind of leaders they want, or leaders who. don't get us into these wars. And yet politicians have not absorbed. that lesson, apparently. CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: And it looks like Trump is struggling. I don't know. But I mean, every time I look around, there's another Trump thing saying, oh, you know, Ayatollah says he won't surrender. Good luck to him. And then, but I wanted to not go to war.

I wanted to be the peace candidate. I wanted the Nobel Prize, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, it's just-- we're just not sure what's coming out. JON STEWART: Yeah, why is it easier to own war. than to own peace? I don't understand that. CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Ehud Barak--. also a military man, prime minister, defense minister, head of the Israeli army, chief of staff--. he made one of the most far reaching offers. to the Palestinians back at the famous Camp David of 2000, you know, with Yasser Arafat and Clinton, et cetera. And Arafat couldn't get himself over the line.

I think partly because he was afraid of being. assassinated like Assad was. But I also think they missed a huge opportunity. And once Netanyahu came back, it's. been-- no way has there been any effort. to make any peace deal. And then I'd say another thing. People are never incorporated. The Iranian people for 45 years have never. been mentioned, not by Israel, not by the West, not by the United States. It's all been about terrorism, this and that. Nobody has thought about the people.

We have been so dehumanized, so delegitimized. Now Netanyahu's saying, rise up, you know, and using the slogan and saying, "zan, zendegi, azadi--". "woman, life, freedom.". I mean, when did you ever care about the Iranian people? Likewise, when did anybody-- the entire body politic. care about the Palestinian people? JON STEWART: And by the way, as difficult. as the Iranian people's relationship is. with their government-- and nobody. is making the case that the Ayatollah is a great dude. and has brought, you know, real progress to them.

Boy, if you want to get a people to unify. with their government-- BEN RHODES: Yeah. JON STEWART: --even those that have. an incredibly fragile relationship with. that government bomb them. CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Well, you know, the deputy foreign minister said exactly. that, because I said, you know, people. are unhappy with your regime, and they. have been for a long time. And the rest of the world is watching. to see whether this is finally going to lead. to the end of your regime. And he said to me, Christiane, people may have a lot. of problems with our policies.

But as you just said, once they are bombed by a foreign entity, then they coalesce. Look, I will say that is also complicated. There are-- I would say the majority of the people of Iran. want a different kind of government. They want freedom. They want to be able to have electricity and heat. and travel and have-- you know, pay their bills. and all that other stuff. And some may even be hoping that this Israeli attack will. lead to some kind of freedom. But the majority, as we're reading,

or those who are commenting online, are actually more rallying around the flag at this time. So I think that's something also. potential unintended consequence that we don't know. where that's going to lead. But I would say leaving out the human equation, the. human factor in any of these--. you know, any of these situations. just proves that actually people don't care about people. They just don't. JON STEWART: Boy howdy. And as you see this-- you know, and it. brings up an interesting--. I want to talk about one other dynamic.

And I so appreciate you guys spending the time with this. So we've talked about Israel, Iran, the United States, the sort of fraught relationship between. I want to talk a little bit about the Sunni world within. this and more Saudi Arabia's kind. of the-- and maybe even Egypt as kind of more the central--. I am confused as to who's proxy. CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: [LAUGHS]. JON STEWART: --in any-- is Israel our proxy? Are we Israel's proxy? Is Saudi Arabia and that world?

Because if anybody is going to be pleased--. and I know that they have to send out the diplomatic. missives stating to the other. But if anybody is pleased in this moment, I would assume it's the Saudi group. that is constantly at battle with the Shia world really. Now, that-- BEN RHODES: Yeah, so--. yeah. This has changed, Jon, a bit. Yeah. JON STEWART: OK. BEN RHODES: So MBS has actually evolved on this thing a bit. And it gets to your thing about risk. JON STEWART: Right. BEN RHODES: MBS got spooked a few years ago when. the Iranians demonstrated that they.

could hit Saudi oil fields. And the Emiratis also got spooked when the Iranians. demonstrated that they might be able to hit, you know, Abu Dhabi or Dubai. And so what the Saudis did in 2023. is they normalized relations with Iran. And I think it's not because they like them. It's not because MBS has any love for this regime. He doesn't. He loathes them. But if this war goes off the rails, right, if the Iranians feel like we. have no choice but to lash out, they. could bomb Saudi oil fields.

They could just become nihilists and say, you know what? We're gonna burn it all down with us. You know? And you're gonna get sucked into the quicksand of this. war, too. And, you know, these guys have a good thing. going right now in the gulf. They don't want to mess with it, you know? JON STEWART: So do they now see Israel as more of a threat. to that than--. I always assumed that they saw Iran as more of a threat--. Iran and through Iran, Russia, as more of a threat. to their supremacy in the region. and would rather surreptitiously. work with Israel. BEN RHODES: That's how it's been. JON STEWART: In your mind, has that flipped?

BEN RHODES: That's how it's certainly been. But I think it's been evolving. And now, given all that Israel has been doing, I actually think that it's beginning. to flip not everywhere in the gulf, like-- but I think the Saudis are looking at this. and thinking, this is just creating a lot of risk, right? There's more risk in what Israel. is doing now than in living with the Iranian regime. And secondly, if you look at Gaza, like, these guys have large populations of younger people. that are completely outraged about the massacre of tens.

of thousands of civilians and children in Gaza, and precisely because they are gonna be around for a while. I guess as a young guy, if he's thinking about the risks. to his potential rule and legitimacy, the anger over what's gonna happen to the Palestinians, particularly if they end up getting ethnically cleansed, and we get-- people get in there. and find hundreds of thousands of people killed, and the disorder of what's happening in Iran. ultimately begins to pose a bigger threat to him. than the Iranian regime. Christiane, you report on this, so.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: I think you're right. And I think that something that solidified. the Saudi risk appetite was when Trump. did not come to their aid. Do you remember after Iran did hit the Abqaiq gas field. or whatever it was, the energy target during that time, they--. oh, my God. You know, who's our ally here? And notably, back in the October, you know, missile exchange between Iran and Israel, you had all these countries, including Arab countries, saying that, hey, we are defending-- you know, we're helping strike down Iranian missiles.

Today? JON STEWART: Right. CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Nada. OK? No allies. Not the Europeans, not the Arabs. So Israel is on its own with the United States. right now, as far as we can gather. And that goes to the heart of what Ben mentioned. And it's about Gaza right now. Israel, which would have wanted--. and Saudi, which would have wanted the normalization deal, cannot do it. Saudi cannot do it while Israel is still in Gaza, while it's still slaughtering civilians. And every single day, we get pictures. on our feeds and statistics of children, women, and men.

being killed just at the aid distribution site. I mean, dozens a day. JON STEWART: There's I think 140. killed just yesterday within a 24 hour period. at these aid sites. It's insane. CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: And the settlers running. rampage in the West Bank. JON STEWART: But why then--. guys, you know, for MBS, who is assuming this sort of larger. role within as a statesman not just in Saudi Arabia. but in the larger Middle East, why then is there passivity?

Because it is-- look, they could've very easily--. the idea that Gaza is being left to be brokered by Israel. and the United States clearly is not going to in any way. help the Palestinian people avoid. this just God awful carnage that they're living through. Why hasn't MBS and that part of the world been more forceful? You know, they all-- like I say,

they throw out the missives. That's why in my mind, I think to myself, well, ultimately, they must be OK with this. CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Well, I mean, look. Ben will-- but as for me, it's been my first question I. ask every Arab leader. It's a shameful dereliction of their duty. as well, which doesn't mean to say, unlike Mike Huckabee is suggesting, the ambassador to Israel for the US, that it's the Arab countries who should give. the Palestinians their state. But it does mean that they've never given them, you. know, citizenship. They've kept them in, quote unquote, "refugee camps.".

And they have not done what you just. suggested-- use their influence, their strength. JON STEWART: That's what I don't under-- that's. what I don't understand. CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: They tried in 2002. the so-called, you know, Arab Saudi Arabia peace plan. And it was rejected--. JON STEWART: Which, by the way, could still--. could still be in effect. CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Yes. JON STEWART: Why does Israel have a veto on all this? That's what I don't-- why are we continuing to allow. Israel purely to have a veto based. on their sense of security? Why is everyone else's security secondary to their sense of it?

BEN RHODES: I think that they--. I mean, there's layers to this. You know, there's no love for Hamas, obviously, in Riyadh and Saudi Arabia. JON STEWART: Right. Or anywhere. CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Yeah. BEN RHODES: Or anywhere. But is there even, like-- there's not a lot of confidence. in the Palestinian Authority. There's a lot of-- but I think one of the reasons, Jon, is at the end of the day, they believe that the US will. back whatever Israel does. And so why do they want to stick their neck out.

for the Palestinians when--. JON STEWART: So they don't want to own the peace. It goes back to what we talked about. They won't own the peace. BEN RHODES: They don't want to own the peace because--. but they don't trust Netanyahu, who's gonna make peace. So why should they spend a lot of capital? Now, they tried to kind of shortcut. this thing with the Abraham Accords. where the Saudis stayed out of. The Emiratis are kind of like, well, let's make this deal. We'll normalize relations, which. was not really a peace deal. It's, like, direct flights and commercial relations. Because the peace has to be made with the Palestinians, not. the Emiratis, you know? JON STEWART: Right.

BEN RHODES: And that-- you know, I think some people sincerely believe that maybe that would, like, pull this issue into kind of a broader context. where the Palestinians could do economic development. and everyone in this region's gonna get rich. Well, it turns out, to your point, Jon, earlier, people want to be free. And they want to be free in the places that they live. And the Palestinians didn't get anything out of a deal. where the Emiratis are making business deals. with the Israelis, right? And there's just not an Arab leader. that has been able to speak to that. or has been willing to go out on a limb. and speak to that, because they frankly think if they go out.

on that limb, the US and Israel are gonna [INAUDIBLE] it. off at the end of the day. JON STEWART: Christiane, I know you have to go. And so we're gonna let you. What does pulling back from the precipice look. like in your mind? And how could that be achieved in these next, you know, tumultuous days? CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Well, from my perspective, having just talked to the Iranian foreign minister, so from their perspective, they're one party to this, if it stops, they'll go back to negotiations. He told me, we haven't given up on negotiations. So--. JON STEWART: And what does escalation.

look like on the Iranian part? Like, what do you think they're willing to do? CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Well, he wouldn't tell me straight out. But they have threatened if the US gets involved--. and as Ben laid out, the US has a lot of bases. It has 40,000 troops, I believe, or something like that, personnel in that region. JON STEWART: And more. Right now, we're sending more in. CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Yeah. And, you know, it's considered that Iraq or militias in Iraq, Iran backed militias are perhaps. the first line of attack on various, you know, American targets.

But it's not gonna be good. JON STEWART: Ben, your final word. on what you think de-escalation could. look like and, in your mind, how that could be accomplished. BEN RHODES: De-escalation involves the United States. stepping in and saying Israel has to stop. the military operation. And we're going to make a nuclear deal with the Iranians. And the Iranians, you know, get crappy terms. And this thing is just kind of put on the freezer. If it doesn't happen--. and I think if the US bombs Fordow,

to end where Christiane started, there's real, meaningful pride in Iran. It's a revolutionary government. It's a government that went through the Iran-Iraq war. So the idea of unconditional surrender, as Trump, like, you know, tweeted, is just not in their DNA. JON STEWART: Or any country's. BEN RHODES: Or any country's. And again, the concept-- look, we might not see--. like, maybe they go underground with their nuclear program, and they pretend like they're making deals. But they pop up in a year or two like North Korea.

did with a nuclear weapon. Maybe the response comes through an immediate flood. of attacks against US service members or oil fields. Maybe it comes later in terrorist actions. But the idea that this is gonna be neat and clean. and that they're just gonna surrender, or that--. I saw Newt Gingrich post, now's the time. for a moderate, inclusive, secular, Democratic government. in Iran. I'm like, we don't even have one of those. in the United States, right? JON STEWART: By the way, they had it, and we overthrew it. CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Not in Israel either. JON STEWART: Right.

BEN RHODES: Not in Israel either. Right? So the idea that, like-- yeah, the regime. change thing is the catastrophic success, right? But it's the Iranian people that to replace it, you know? And I worry about a failed state in Iran. CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: And I would like to say, just a plug. for myself and my new podcast. I do this with my ex-husband on this episode, which has just dropped. All the behind the scenes stuff. JON STEWART: Oh, Christiane, truly professional. Well done. That was cherry. Ben Rhodes, co-host Pod Save the World, former deputy national security advisor to President Obama.

Christiane Amanpour, CNN's chief international anchor, host of the new podcast Christiane. and the X-files with Jamie Rubin, which. is talking about this very topic, as Christiane just mentioned. Guys, thanks so much for spending the time. I know it's a really fraught time for both of you. So thanks. CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Thanks for you taking the time. BEN RHODES: Thanks, Jon. [MUSIC PLAYING]. JON STEWART: Boy, I want to thank Ben. and Christiane for being here. You know, you're in the middle of it. And you just know that their phones are dinging. the whole time because they're in the midst of actually.

talking to the relevant players within this fiasco. and hearing in real time, as Christiane was. saying, on the phone with the deputy foreign ministers. of Iran. But the one thing that struck me. was the ease in which de-escalation can take place. And for some reason, that being the moment that's fraught, that peace is more fraught than war. in the immediate moment of political gain,

whether it's even for the regime in Iran, whose. own people rose up against it time and time again, who they've had to physically put down, whether it was based on the Green Revolution that took. place or the Mahsa Amini--. and I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly, Mahsa Amini--. that sparked so much protest and unfortunately. violence within that country. And you see how war is in some ways.

their answer to coalescing their people. It's a stunning kind of realization. that it's easier for these so-called leaders. to live in war than to live in peace. Anyway, I appreciate both of them. taking the time to enlighten us in those issues. I want to thank our folks, as always,

for helping me put on the podcast. Lead producer Lauren Walker, producer Brittany Mehmedovic, video editor and engineer Rob Vitola, audio editor. and engineer Nicole Boyce, who's. gonna have a time on this one. I'm pretty sure Ben's mic was going in and out. So Nicole, I am so sorry. Researcher and associate producer Gillian. Spear and our executive producers. Chris McShane and Katie Gray. Thank you for listening. And we shall see you again next week. Oh boy. [MUSIC PLAYING]. The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart.

is a Comedy Central podcast. It's produced by Paramount Audio and Busboy Productions.