Iran Beyond the Headlines with Maziar Bahari | The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart

MAZIAR BAHARI: Islamic republic of Iran. is not Islamic republic of Iran. It's Islamic republic of corruption, it's Islamic republic of persecution, and Islamic republic of masturbation. JON STEWART: Wait. What? [UPBEAT MUSIC]. Hello, everybody. Welcome, once again, to The Weekly Show podcast. My name is Jon Stewart, and we are currently not at war. It's been hours, I think. I mean, it's Wednesday. It's Wednesday, June 25.

This will probably come out Thursday. Right now, we are not at war, and Iran. doesn't have a nuclear weapon. But tomorrow, maybe they have a nuclear weapon, and we're back at war, and we either. completely obliterated their nuclear program. or set it back 36 hours. Boy, this has just been everything. that is so difficult about this administration, just. on display, in the moment. even actions that it might take that can be successful.

are fraught with his fragility at all times. We obliterated their nuclear program. Well, the early intelligence says, oh, but scumbags reported that, and people that hate the pilots. And you just think, hey, man, if it's real. and all the things that you said you had accomplished. had been accomplished, then it shouldn't. be that hard to not be so defensive and angry.

all the time. It is such an amazing moment, when you see a guy who's. the commander in chief of the United States. and the president of the United States, in a situation room. with, like, a Trump was right about everything hat. Like, how many of history's great leaders. had their own merch that were doing? We're having, in the moment of triumph, in the moment,

it's Roosevelt at Yalta with Churchill and Stalin, you know, wearing a nice no fear--. fear itself. He had "fear itself" on the T-shirt, available. on Roosevelt's website. And just the shallowness, sometimes, of their-- you. know, JD Vance-- people are saying, we're concerned about intervention in the Middle East. and how these things can have unforeseen consequences.

and instability throughout. And JD Vance says, yes. He said, no, we understand that that's. something the American people are afraid of. But the American people have never. had a smart person before. Now, we have a smart person, a smart person. that thinks anybody that might possibly. look into whether or not it was actually obliterated. is a scumbag. Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt comes out, and they ask her, was it obliterated?

And she says, everybody knows what. happens when you drop bunk-- "everybody knows,". is what she said. Everybody knows what happens when. you have a precision strike with these kinds of weapons. These weapons have never been used before, in the history of the planet, but. everybody knows what happened. It's just beyond the silliness. And if anybody pushes back, they demand 100% fealty.

And anything beyond that sets off anger and frustration. because of the fragility. And speaking of which, my favorite comment from the news. has been, has this attack--. what is the future for Ali Khamenei, for the Ayatollah? What is the future? Does this put his future in doubt?

And you're like, he's 86, and he ain't Jack LaLanne. Like, he's not the healthiest dude in the world. Like, I don't know what's more dangerous right now. to the Ayatollah, the American and Israeli attacks or stairs. Like, this is-- fuck, man. But I am, you know, in these moments--. Years ago, a friend of mine, Maziar Bahari, was a journalist.

and was imprisoned in Iran, and he wrote a book about his time. in solitary confinement. He was imprisoned for reporting on the Green Revolution. in 2008, 2009, during that election, and wrote a book about it called, Then They Came for Me. And then he and I did a movie about it called Rosewater. and now, he's still a journalist and does something. called IranWire.com, which allows voices within Iran.

to have an outlet, where information--. because it's a difficult country. to get information out of--. can come out. And he is such an interesting--. and has such an encyclopedic and brilliant knowledge. of all that has happened in that country. and the things that are currently happening. And the first thing I thought, as I saw this was, boy, I just. want to talk to Maziar and just see how he's feeling,

what he's thinking about this. And so very luckily, we're gonna. get a chance to do that today. [UPBEAT MUSIC]. Ladies and gentlemen, oh, what a treat today. We're very excited. Our guest today-- oh, my good--. writer, journalist, filmmaker, bon vivant, traveler of international renown, author, Maziar Bahari,

and also the publisher of IranWire.com. and my dear old friend. Maziar, what are you doing, man? MAZIAR BAHARI: Well, you know, you called me a bon vivant, but vivant is not "bon" now. JON STEWART: You're not-- you're not "bon"? MAZIAR BAHARI: Not good at all. No. JON STEWART: No, I could see it. I recognize that. MAZIAR BAHARI: Yeah. No, it's a very, very sad and tragic moment. for many Iranians, including myself, all around the world,

but for me personally, because many of our colleagues in Iran. and citizen journalists and also, the families of our colleagues outside of Iran. have been harassed and that's been. interrogated by different intelligence agents. And this is something that the Iranian government does. when it loses a war, a fight. Iran has been defeated by Israel.

Iran has been embarrassed, and we are worried that-- what. they're going to do. They executed three people this morning because of espionage. and, you know, because of an assassination. that happened two years ago. They've been forcing people to confess against themselves. So Iranians really, really--. they're stuck between this thuggish, hostage taking, corrupt government and Israelis who think that by bombing, they.

can solve everything, that by bombing, they. can bring democracy to Iran. And people are thinking that, OK, if we're bombing. could bring democracy to a country. Gaza would be a Scandinavian democracy by now. Gaza would be like Norway. JON STEWART: Absolutely. MAZIAR BAHARI: But it is--. so Iranians are just-- they have these mixed feelings. And as people outside of Iran, who are in touch with Iran. all the time, we just feel helpless. And this is just so depressing.

So it's just horrible. JON STEWART: I want to step back for the audience. right now, just to give a sense of where Maziar is coming from. So Maziar, for many of you don't remember, wrote a book called Then They Came For Me. You were covering the Green Revolution. This was the 2008 election. I think it was-- MAZIAR BAHARI: 2009. JON STEWART: --Ahmadinejad--. 2009. Ahmadinejad against-- was it Mousavi? MAZIAR BAHARI: Mousavi, yeah. JON STEWART: Maziar was covering it, filming at the Basij stations, where.

there was a lot of violence. That's sort of their kind of secret police. that would come out on these motorcycles. and harass and hurt people. MAZIAR BAHARI: A Basij arms depot. in the middle of a residential neighborhood, where. people don't forget that. JON STEWART: And people were going up to it. and being shot and killed. And Maziar was arrested, interrogated, and then held. in solitary confinement at Evin Prison for months, until a campaign, spearheaded by his wife Paola,

and many other international human rights groups, got him released, got him out. So your experience in Iran is of this moment that you're. talking about, the Iranian government cracking down. on what they think are the dissidents. and the people that are undermining. whatever their security is. IranWire, which is the site you started, is an incredible outlet for these citizen journalists.

that are in Iran. So just to give a basic run there, of where. it is that you're coming from there, you've experienced this cycle personally. And now, you think that's going to play out on the streets. Have your sources there been able to still reach out, or is it kind of a radio silence right now?

What are you seeing? MAZIAR BAHARI: It's been very difficult. Yeah, it's been very difficult, because sometimes they narrow. the bandwidth of the internet. Sometimes they shut down the internet. So it's been very difficult to get in touch with us, you know, both citizen journalists. and officials as well. Since last year, when former President Raisi died. in a helicopter crash, many Iranian officials. have been in touch with us and leaking information, because they think that they are on a sinking ship,

and they don't know what's going to happen. And because of that, they are informing. us about different things. And one thing that they're talking about is corruption. So I always like to say that the Islamic Republic is not. either an Islamic or republic. You remember that episode of Seinfeld. that-- you know, remember that episode of Seinfeld, that George told Jerry, it's my artistic integrity.

that I'm worried about. And Jerry goes, what the fuck you're talking about? You're not artistic, and you don't have any integrity. JON STEWART: And you have integrity. MAZIAR BAHARI: That is the Islamic Republic. JON STEWART: Yeah. Maziar Bahari, by the way, one of the only Iran experts who. will quote Seinfeld fluently. One of the only ones. MAZIAR BAHARI: Yeah. JON STEWART: Yes. MAZIAR BAHARI: And Days of Our Lives. Yeah. JON STEWART: And Days of our Lives. What are they saying now? Is it that the corruption may be the thing that finally kind. of undermines their authority?

MAZIAR BAHARI: So let me go through my spiel. JON STEWART: Hit me, baby. MAZIAR BAHARI: So the Islamic Republic-- right now, Islamic Republic of Iran is not Islamic Republic of Iran. It's Islamic Republic of corruption. It's Islamic Republic of persecution. and Islamic Republic of masturbation. We get to the masturbation in a few minutes. JON STEWART: Wait. What? MAZIAR BAHARI: I'll tell you. So this is a government that's corrupt to the core. Why do you think that the Israelis managed. to know how many revolutionary guards commanders live in what.

places, and they managed to kill 12 of them. on the first night? Because of the fact that Israel has so many spies around Iran. and because of the fact that they know the coming and going. of these revolutionary guards commanders, they know exactly where the bases are. They know everything. JON STEWART: How? MAZIAR BAHARI: Because of this spies, because this economy is so bad that they. can hire a spy for $5,000.

And, you know, according to our sources, some of these spies that people see, even in prisons, they're not getting, like, $100,000. or or $200,000 dollars, you know, like Russian. spies during the Cold War. They're getting, like, $5,000 for a bit of information that--. which commander lives where? And then the Israelis, they juxtapose all that information. together, and they have this whole which. has helped them to do that. And that corruption exists in every aspect of this government.

and society. It's an Islamic republic of persecution. All it knows-- you know, in the absence of any real governing. of the country, in the absence of providing people. with electricity, in the absence of providing people. with employment, all they can do is imprison people, torture people, arrest people because. of their hijab, et cetera. So they're not really interested.

They have given up governance in the country, maybe, since 2019, since the protest in 2019. And persecution is what they're doing. JON STEWART: Those were after the death of Mahsa Amini? MAZIAR BAHARI: Before the death of Mahsa Amini. 2019 was even before--. JON STEWART: This was even before that? MAZIAR BAHARI: Yeah, yeah, yeah, before the death of Mahsa Amini, when we had three days of total internet shutdown and they. killed almost 2,000 people. And then, of course, during the time of Mahsa Amini, there were others. And then, it's the Islamic republic of masturbation.

Why? Because all they do is, they're just keeping themselves. happy with propaganda. All they do is that, through these forced confessions, through this propaganda. Like, right now, they have these rallies. in Tehran for the victory of Iran in this war. You know, what victory? You should be embarrassed about it. So it's really, like, when you think. about the Islamic republic's leaders,

I would be embarrassed if I were them, because they're. not even good at being evil. JON STEWART: [LAUGHS] Incompetent at being evil. MAZIAR BAHARI: Incompetence at being evil. [BASS GUITAR MUSIC]. JON STEWART: Hey, everybody. I know you all are sweating out our latest 110-degree. heat wave, but you know what doesn't belong. in your summer plans? Getting burned by your old wireless bill. Your wireless bill.

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That's MintMobile.com/TWS. Upfront payment of $45 required, equivalent to, you know, $15 a month. Limited time. New customer offer for first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes. on the unlimited plan. Taxes and fees, extra. See Mint Mobile for details. [BASS GUITAR MUSIC]. MAZIAR BAHARI: And on the other hand, you have the Israelis, who know exactly what they're doing,

who have managed to destroy Hezbollah, to a certain extent, Hamas, to a certain extent. Iran's-- you know, the flights and the airplanes, and they come and go as much as they want. In 2012-- let me tell you a story. You would be interested in this story. In 2012, five Iranian terrorists, they went to Bangkok, Thailand to kill Ehud Barak, who. was the minister at the time and who.

was going to visit Thailand. JON STEWART: The minister of Israel. Right. MAZIAR BAHARI: He was not prime minister. He was minister, I think, of Foreign Affairs at the time. So he went to Bangkok. The Iranians, they sent five agents to kill Ehud Barak. Three of them hang out with hookers the night before. There's a picture of them in Pattaya, which is. a beach just south of Bangkok. On the day of bombing, the bomb that they were supposed to have. for Ehud Barak, it blew up in the apartment building.

that they were in, which was a few blocks from Iran's. cultural center in Bangkok. The guys came out. People called the police. They hailed the taxi. The taxi didn't stop. They threw a hand grenade, and the hand grenade bounced back, and one of them lost his leg. This is the type of inefficiency of evil. you're talking about. You know, like, Hannah Arendt talked about--. Hannah Arendt talked about the banality of evil. This is, like, the inefficiency, ineptitude of. evil that we're talking about. JON STEWART: The inefficiency and incompetence.

But let me ask you, Maziar. So you talked about the difficulty. of getting information now, out of Iran. and into these other things. What about information getting into Iran? And when the supreme leader and whoever. else it is in the ministry of propaganda. who are putting out the idea that this is a great victory--. I think they put out that they had completely destroyed. the American base in Qatar.

The people, obviously, are quite skeptical of all that. But is there an ability for them--. look, it's hard enough for us to get the information. We don't know what happened to those nuclear sites. We don't know what our bombs did. It's hard enough for so-called open information societies. to understand the realities on the ground. Within Iran, how much is their propaganda. dismissed and with skepticism? How effective is it?

I mean, let-- and when we talk about that, too, we'll roll back-- you know, Iran is not a monolith, by any stretch. It's similar to many countries. You can sort of look at it as red and blue. There's this, you know, divide there. But what is the information that they're getting. MAZIAR BAHARI: So Iranians, when the internet works. normally, like, when there is a connection between the Iranians. and international World Wide Web, they can get their information.

There are many sites that are blocked, including. IranWire.com, but people use VPNs, and people use filter busters. And funnily enough, the Iranian government. uses Chinese firewalls in order to stop the internet, and Iranians use Chinese filter busters, developed. by the Chinese, some of them. So they use VPNs. They get the information. There are satellite channels that are beamed. into Iran that people look at. And also, because the Iranian government cannot--.

at the moment, because of that inefficiency. that we talked about, they cannot shut. down the internet totally. There are times that people can get the information. So we are using WhatsApp, for example. We have a channel on WhatsApp, on Telegram, so people can get the information. as much as they want. But yesterday, the Iranian government sent an SMS, a text, to many Iranians, millions of Iranians around the country,

saying that you should not like or post. on any Zionist or Zionist-friendly. sites or platforms. And that's open to interpretation. JON STEWART: That's gonna be all of them. I mean, we do control all of them. MAZIAR BAHARI: That's open to interpretation, because, you know, anyone can be a Zionist. JON STEWART: Sure. MAZIAR BAHARI: Even most of the Iranian government officials. that I've met, they don't know what Zionism means.

They all think that Zion was a person and these people, like, Marxists, they support Zion. Who is this Zion that they're talking about? This is something that I heard from a senior government. official, that--. damn that Zion who started Zionism. This is a level of-- JON STEWART: Oh, my. MAZIAR BAHARI: But at the same time, you have this society that is educated.

You know, they're secular, mostly. They hate this government, but unfortunately, there is no alternative. So when I hear about regime change. in Iran, like, from different senators, Congress people, different, you know--. JON STEWART: The president. MAZIAR BAHARI: Like, Netanyahu talked about regime change. JON STEWART: It's got to happen. Yeah. MAZIAR BAHARI: Regime change to what? You know, the Iranian opposition. has been its own worst enemy for the past few years.

When was it? Almost three years ago, after Mahsa Amini's death, during the Woman, Life, Freedom movement, a few of these opposition figures, they got together in Georgetown University. And they had this manifesto, and they. said people were really looking forward to something happening. I mean, there were actors and actresses and football players, soccer players, and people thought that they.

might be able to do something. They could not even hold that group together for more than a. month or so. So the Iranian opposition really does not exist. So imagine if the regime collapses tomorrow. There is no, you know, Mandela or Václav Havel who's going. to take care of the country. You know, people compare Iran to the situation. in South Africa that, you know, bring. out-- they bring about the end of the apartheid. But Mandela was not himself.

There are some interesting figures. in the Iranian opposition, but they. don't have a real political party behind them. Mandela had people like Oliver Tambo, Chris Hani, and Mbeki, the current president, Cyril Ramaphosa, who managed to, you know, negotiate the transition and all that. And also, on top of that, ANC, the African National Congress. that came to power after apartheid,

was a political party with decades of history. Many of these opposition figures outside of Iran, they have not managed to bring even a small group of people. together in an organized way, to be able to talk. to different governments. They don't have any plans for transition. People say that, yes, we will be in charge of the transition, but they have no idea what transition, transitional justice--. And that means that for the majority of Iranians.

who are secular and who hate this government--. and they want change, to look at the neighborhood. around them, Iraq, Libya, Syria. And those are not great role models to emulate. So because of that, we are in a situation where we are, that we have millions of Iranians who are sophisticated, educated, open-minded. They are taken hostage by this group. of thugs who are organized, who have power,

who have money, et cetera. So when I heard the president, yesterday, saying these are the two countries that don't know what. the fuck they're doing, I think that was the exact emotion. that millions of Iranians and, most probably, millions of Israelis could express as well. JON STEWART: Right. I want to tell you, there's quite. a few Americans who feel that way right. now, about what we're doing. It's kind of a universal statement. I think it's why it's become such a meme.

But I think, also, for people to understand--. Iran is really split. The power base for the Ayatollah. is more the rural areas, more religious, more extreme. There is that dichotomy of the more. educated people in the cities, and they have a more liberal--. But relate this to-- when you and I were in Jordan, it was in the middle of that Arab Spring, that feeling that there was a real sense of hope.

and possibility of what a more democratic ideal might be, generally one that we were kind of projecting onto them. And I think Egypt presents a really. interesting example, because that. was a ground-up revolution. First, there was Mubarak, who was. the authoritarian dictator who had been there. for all those many years.

The people on the street, during the Arab Spring, rose up and overthrew Mubarak, and they were gonna institute. a democratic election. And what everybody began to realize is, oh, the only people that are organized enough--. because civic institutions had degraded. for so long over that time--. was Muslim Brotherhood. They were the only ones that had any--. So Morsi, through Muslim Brotherhood, becomes the leader of Egypt. They become dissatisfied with Morsi's rule. The streets rise up again. This takes a year.

And who takes over? Sisi, another autocrat, basically, Mubarak again. And now, he's very popular. I think the point that you made is really interesting. If you have an authoritarian regime over a period of time, it degrades your civic institutions. So when you talk about who's next, it's maybe another Ayatollah, maybe it's somebody. from Quds Force, maybe it's somebody. from Revolutionary Guard. But it is not, probably, going to be.

some democratically minded leader who's. going to empower the people. Would that be fair to say? MAZIAR BAHARI: Well, let's go back to the premise. that the country is divided between rural and urban areas. and educated or not. I think that was maybe the old paradigm. At the moment, we can say that Iran, right now, is very similar to Soviet Union in the 1980s.

So you have many people who support the regime, as they did in Soviet Union. You have millions of people who are getting. paid by the intelligence services, like you had in Soviet Union. And they are supporting an ideology. But at the same time, they are getting paid by the system. So they have material interest in the existence of the system. JON STEWART: So the government is supporting a lot of them.

MAZIAR BAHARI: A lot of them. So in, like, 1985, if you ask a KGB agent, do you support the Soviet Union because of the communist ideals. and Marxist ideals or just because you're getting paid, you know, he probably would say, yes, because of the ideals. But you must support him because he was getting paid. and because he had seen 70 years of corruption. and dictatorship in his country, and you know that communism did not work. So at the moment, many people who support the government--.

I would say most people who support the government, they have some material interest. It can be because they are getting paid by Imam Khomeini's. charity foundation that is supporting up. to 10 million people, maybe because they are getting. paid by different foundations because. of the Revolutionary Guards. And also, as you know, Revolutionary Guards. is not only an army. The Revolutionary Guards is one of the biggest.

industrial bodies in Iran. It has universities. It has hospitals. So many people are getting paid by the Revolutionary Guards. and support it. Going back to the other question. that you have, in terms of the organized opposition, so there is no organized opposition. outside of the government. At the moment, I would say that the government is fractured. into different parts. Some of them are hardcore supporters.

of Ayatollah Khamenei, because they either believe in him. as this island of purity in this sea of corruption and dirt. and is someone who, as they say, is basically the backbone of the revolution. I would say there are many of them. There would be maybe 4 million or 5 million. of them, who vote for the most hardline.

candidates in the presidential elections, usually. But there are many other people who do not believe. in the government, but they still work for the government, and many of them are good bureaucrats, who would be. good bureaucrats for a good--. JON STEWART: No matter what. MAZIAR BAHARI: Yes, for good government, like, you know--. JON STEWART: Iran's deep state. MAZIAR BAHARI: Some diplomats. Exactly. Some diplomats that we have, some accountants,

bookkeepers, et cetera. So they don't have any kind of ideological belonging. to the system. So the best-case scenario would be. to have a leader who would realize. that Iran needs stability. And most people really don't care about many. of the dictatorial aspects of the regime. They want stability in life. And when Trump says, you know, they don't know what the fuck.

they're doing, I can understand his frustration. Because as a businessman, he looks at Iran, and he says, you guys have gas, you have oil, you have an amazing country. I hang out with these Iranian property owners in New York, and I know how brilliant they are. Why do you keep on chanting these ideological slogans. and just don't make money? Just, you know, be quiet and make money, like the rest of the Middle East, like people in UAE,

people in Saudi Arabia, people in many other countries. And because of that, I think the best-case scenario would. be to have a leader who is nationalist, who can bring. different groups together, who can give people social freedom, who can tolerate some level of democracy and elections. in Iran. And then Iranians would rally around him. and someone who has a plan. Because Iranians, they're smart enough.

to know that if someone doesn't have a plan, they're not going to support that person. JON STEWART: Someone like Mohammad Mosaddegh, that we overthrew in 1953. Maybe somebody like that. MAZIAR BAHARI: Yeah, Mohammad Mosaddegh, someone. like him, yeah, because he basically came. through the system as well. And, you know, here, let's make it an open. parenthesis, because--. JON STEWART: Well, we couldn't allow it because we thought. he was a communist, so that--. MAZIAR BAHARI: No, exactly. But the thing about Mosaddegh as well. is that people say, here, that-- you know,

not here, like, in the US. I've seen a lot of my leftist friends. and liberals say that he was a democratically elected. Mossadegh was not democratically elected. Mossadegh became prime minister, like many other prime ministers before him and after him. The Shah introduced him to the parliament, and the parliament voted for him as the prime minister. Mossadegh's main mistake-- and I think that many other. Iranian politicians and many politicians.

in different places--. was to make the Americans afraid of the Soviets. so much that they couldn't trust them anymore. And they said that, OK, we have to bring our own strongman. Because Mossadegh was telling Truman. and Churchill and Attlee, at the time, if you don't support me, the Soviets are going to take over, the communists are going to take over.

And then, you know, the CIA was a young organization. at that time. And when Eisenhower came to power with Allen Dulles. and they said that, well, if you're so weak that you. cannot withstand the Soviets, then. we can have our own people. We can have a strong military. So that's why the coup happened. JON STEWART: And he also did, you know, British Petroleum--. and the fact that they couldn't trust. that Mosaddegh would do what they wanted him. to do for British Petroleum. MAZIAR BAHARI: Exactly. So I think it's very important to understand.

other people's narrative. I think Mosaddegh's main problem. was that he did not understand the American Cold. War narrative at the time. He did not understand the level of fear in the US. JON STEWART: That was viewed as an existential threat. to the United States. MAZIAR BAHARI: And Americans at that time, they didn't care. about the narrative in Iran. And they thought with the coup, they can bring stability, and they could bring-- JON STEWART: Sure.

MAZIAR BAHARI: And of course, it backfired. JON STEWART: The Shah will be our guy. MAZIAR BAHARI: Exactly. And 25 years later, it backfired, and there was a revolution. JON STEWART: Right. MAZIAR BAHARI: At the moment, I think that's happening as well, that people don't understand each other's narrative, and there is a lot of misunderstanding. and miscommunication. JON STEWART: So let's talk about narrative, because you bring up an excellent point, because so much of this is about narrative. And I do have a couple of questions on that. One is--. MAZIAR BAHARI: I'm sorry for drinking so much water. It's so hot here that, you know, I have to hydrate myself.

JON STEWART: Maziar, I can tell-- first of all, it's very upsetting to me how good you look. I'm already upset about that, because--. MAZIAR BAHARI: You, too, man. You, too. Oh, my god, no. You look like--. JON STEWART: Over the years, the eroded--. MAZIAR BAHARI: --young George Clooney. JON STEWART: Well, well, Maziar, thank you. MAZIAR BAHARI: Seriously. JON STEWART: That's very kind of you, sir. MAZIAR BAHARI: No. JON STEWART: By the way, when we were making Rosewater, which. is a film about Maziar's experiences in captivity, in Iran, we had to get Gael García Bernal to do it,

because there was no one else handsome enough. to play a young Maziar Bahari. It just wasn't--. MAZIAR BAHARI: And unfortunately, Peter Sellers was dead. So in the absence of Peter Sellers, we had to get Gael García Bernal. JON STEWART: We could have gone with someone. handsome enough or witty enough, and we went with Gael, who--. MAZIAR BAHARI: Who did a very good job. JON STEWART: --bridged-- who did a very good job, bridged the gap. Talking about narrative. And it's the two narratives. One, in Iran. So the revolution-- and people know that there's.

a distinction between Khomeini, who was the leader in absentia. And then, when the Islamic Revolution came to power, he took over, and then, when he passed, Khamenei. If this nuclear program is the sole reason that is preventing. them from the kind of progress that you're. seeing in some of these other nations, why do they--. do they feel like that's the key.

to holding on to their power? Is it still the idea of creating. a kind of more Shia-dominated power source from Syria. through Iran? I can't wrap my mind around why they do allow themselves to be. so at a remove, when they do have so much to offer, as you say.

In terms of brain power, in terms of everything, they've kind of, it seems like, cut off their own nose to spite. their face, in some regard. MAZIAR BAHARI: No, it's a very good question. And I think it goes back to one of the main problems. with this government, that it has not managed to define. itself, the fact that 40 years after the revolution, 46 years. after the revolution, they're still calling themselves. a revolutionary government. So in 1979, the revolution happened.

because of mainly two reasons. Iranians, they wanted freedom. They wanted to defeat tyranny. JON STEWART: The Shah was a brutal force in Iran. People--. MAZIAR BAHARI: The Shah was a brutal force. JON STEWART: --might forget that. MAZIAR BAHARI: And also, the Iranians, they. started their movement for freedom in 1906, one year. after the original Russian Revolution, and they had a constitutional revolution, and Iran had the first parliament in Asia.

So people started to fight for freedom in 1906. Then, you know, that movement was defeated. The Shah's father came to power, and there were. many movements in the 1940s. And as you said, the coup happened in the early 1950s. So many Iranians, they thought that they could use Khomeini. in order to defeat the Shah, and then he would just go home, and then they could come to power. And at the same time, the Shia clerics, they had a lot of power.

In 1962, the Shah had the White Revolution, and that undermined the power of the clergy in Iran. JON STEWART: What was the White Revolution? Go back to that, because I'm not familiar. MAZIAR BAHARI: So the White Revolution had two main tenets. One was that the big lands had to be taken away. from landowners and divided into farmers, because that feudal system that existed in Iran, at the time,

was a main obstacle to the progress of Iran. And he was inspired by Kennedy, actually, you know, at that time, Kennedy was in power, so there was a lot of conversation. between the Kennedy administration and Iran. And the second tenet was giving women the right to vote. So when Khomeini started his movement in 1962, he wrote a letter to the Shah, saying that, you. know, Your Royal Majesty--. he used the word "Royal Majesty.".

Giving women the vote is going to drive them to prostitution. You know, like, you know, OK, women get a vote, and then they go to a brothel immediately. You know, just like that. JON STEWART: Huh. MAZIAR BAHARI: This letter is available online, you know? So the White Revolution. So after the White Revolution, Khomeini, of course, had his original uprising. He was sent into exile. Many of his supporters were killed and put in jail, including the current Supreme Leader,

Ayatollah Khamenei, who was, I think, around 23, 24 at the time. He was born in 1939. So the clergy, they wanted to take power. And so in 1979, these two forces, the nationalist forces. and the Islamic forces, they managed to topple the Shah. But again, as you said about Egypt, the nationalists, the Islamic forces, they were more organized. Khomeini had a network of people.

in mosques around the country. He was a very good communicator. He knew how to use the cassette tapes. He was sending his messages to Iran on cassette tapes. He was using photocopies of his messages, so that was distributed all around Iran. So when the revolution happened in February 1979, Khomeini managed to get rid of all the other groups. one by one, put people in jail, execute them, and then.

be the absolute ruler of Iran. [BASS GUITAR MUSIC]. JON STEWART: Hey, hey, what do you got there, a business? You realize your business needs to hire someone, and you needed them yesterday? Well, how are you gonna find them? How are you gonna find amazing candidates, fast? What, are you gonna walk outside, ask people directly? Bah. Just use Indeed. Stop struggling to get your job post seen on other job sites. Indeed's sponsored jobs help you stand out and hire fast.

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to get your jobs more visibility. at Indeed.com/Weekly. Just go to Indeed.com/Weekly, right now. Support our show by saying you heard. about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com/Weekly. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring? Indeed is all you need. [BASS GUITAR MUSIC]. Now, do you think Iran, now--. if that's the origin story of this new version,

do they define themselves through the Islamic premise? Do they define themselves through opposition. to the great Satan, which would be America and, I'm. assuming, Israel? Do they define themselves through this idea. that they are a counterweight to the majority Sunni. population in the region? Like, what's the defining foundation, then, that.

holds the nation together? MAZIAR BAHARI: Yeah, so I remember. that I didn't answer your question about the nuclear--. so I'm gonna answer both of them at the same time. JON STEWART: We got so much. MAZIAR BAHARI: Yeah, we got so much. JON STEWART: All right. MAZIAR BAHARI: So again, like, what we were talking about, the opposition right now. When Khomeini came to power, he had an ideal. of creating an Islamic utopia, exporting the revolution, and he inspired millions of people around the world.

There's a guy who lives in Iran right. now, who came from Washington. And he killed someone on behalf of the Iranian government, and he's been living in Iran for the past 46 years. He inspired millions of people around the world. And as you remember, in the 1970s and the '60s, revolutions. were invoked. So Khomeini was really a good revolutionary leader. But that utopia was, you know--. JON STEWART: It was a mirage. MAZIAR BAHARI: --not a realistic idea. It was a mirage.

The Islamic republic, as we said, it's like, you know, George with artistic integrity. That does not exist. So in the absence of being able to create this Islamic utopia, what Khomeini did and what his successor, Ali Khamenei, did, since he's been in power, since 1989, they've been insisting on that revolutionary aspect. of the Iranian government of the Islamic republic.

And what do you need for a revolution? You need an enemy, so you have to have enemies. And Khomeini said it himself, that Saddam Hussein's. invasion of Iran in 1980 was a gift to the Islamic republic. Because when Saddam Hussein invaded Iran and it started. the Iran-Iraq War, for eight years, brought everyone together, and they supported Khomeini. And as a result, you know, he managed to mobilize people.

Then Khomeini died in 1989. Ali Khamenei came to power, and he's been--. his catchphrase is [NON-ENGLISH], the enemy. And, you know, he's been talking about [NON-ENGLISH]. And, you know, talking about [NON-ENGLISH] is like--. really, for him, it's given him his character. It's like, you know, Barry Gibb finding his falsetto.

It's just like that. It's like, when you think about Barry Gibb before, you know--. JON STEWART: See, this is the fun of hanging out with Maziar. MAZIAR BAHARI: No, no, but seriously. Like, you know, Saturday Night Fever, before and after. JON STEWART: Sure. MAZIAR BAHARI: It's like, you know, when Khamenei talks about--. JON STEWART: Once they found that signature sound, man, [NON-ENGLISH]. MAZIAR BAHARI: Exactly. So--. JON STEWART: [NON-ENGLISH] "Stayin' Alive.". MAZIAR BAHARI: Because apparently, Khamenei. smokes opium, and people who've known him, they say that every now and then, he likes to smoke. a little bit of opium. He doesn't say [NON-ENGLISH].

He says [NON-ENGLISH], which is very much. like an opium-affected sound. So, yeah, he has to define a new [NON-ENGLISH], a new. enemy for himself every time. So it was Saddam Hussein, which was a blessing and then, of course, America, the great Satan, Israel, the little Satan. And then, you know, I think around 1993, '94, he talked about the cultural invasion.

because of the Western cultural invasion, because of all the Velvet Revolutions that were. happening in Eastern Europe. He talked about that. So he keeps on talking about that. And how can you defeat [NON-ENGLISH], an enemy, you. know, through military power? And what is the most potent military device that you can. have to defeat the enemies?

That's the nuclear program. And they've been trying to do that since--. JON STEWART: Wow. MAZIAR BAHARI: --as far as we know, since the late 1980s, when the former Revolutionary Guards commandant, the letter is available as Khomeini, after many defeats during the Iran-Iraq War, that we have to start developing a nuclear program. JON STEWART: Wasn't even the Shah pursuing that, I think--. MAZIAR BAHARI: Well, Shah was JON STEWART: --towards the end? MAZIAR BAHARI: --not pursuing-- the Shah.

was not pursuing a nuclear--. JON STEWART: Weapon. MAZIAR BAHARI: A weapon? We don't know yet. We don't know. The funny thing about this Shah is that the Americans, they helped the Shah during the time of Eisenhower, around the 1956, '55, '56, to develop the program, Atoms for Peace. And many countries, they had that. And the Shah had a very smart idea, actually. The Shah was saying that oil is a finite resource, so we.

cannot use oil only for heat. And, you know, we have to have alternative sources of power. and keep oil for other usages. So the Shah was developing nuclear energy. JON STEWART: He wanted to diversify. Right. MAZIAR BAHARI: Yeah. Around the late 1970s, there are some documents that some. Israelis were saying that the Shah should develop nuclear.

weapons in order to be able to defeat. the Arab enemies the same way, or at least. frighten the Arab enemies. And at that time, the Americans, they did not want the Shah to have that and prevented that. And when this government came to power, it basically got rid of all the nuclear programs. in the beginning, and then they started again, in the late 1980s. So when you go to the Israeli archives, that part of the archives is still.

not available to the public. But when you talk to the people in the Israeli army, in the old times, the military attaché, the Mossad people. in Iran at the time, they're telling. you that that's what happened, that we wanted to have Iran--. a nuclear program. And the other thing is that between Iran and Israel, there is no real beef between Iran and Israel. Iran needs Israel.

JON STEWART: By the way, I think more Jews. in Iran than any other country around there, after Israel and the United States. MAZIAR BAHARI: Maybe after Turkey. JON STEWART: Right. Maybe Turkey. MAZIAR BAHARI: Yeah, I'm not 100% sure, but there is a sizable Jewish community in Iran, and it's one of the oldest Jewish communities. in the world. And, you know, they're not Ashkenazi, and they're not Sephardic. There are Iranian Jews, Persian Jews. JON STEWART: Persian Jews. MAZIAR BAHARI: Many of them is they are. very close to where you live.

You know, they're in Long Island. JON STEWART: Wait. What? MAZIAR BAHARI: Yeah, yeah. JON STEWART: I thought it was Los Angeles. MAZIAR BAHARI: No, no, no, no. Great Neck. Great Neck, in Long Island, has the biggest. Persian Jewish community. You know, they know-- the Persian Jews-- like, these are, like, beautiful areas. They have very, very beautiful--. JON STEWART: You got to go by waterfront. You know, the Jews need the ocean breeze. MAZIAR BAHARI: Yeah, exactly. So there's no beef between Iran and Israel. JON STEWART: But it is--. Iran's been very clear, they would like to destroy Israel.

And Israel's been very clear. They would like to destroy, at least, this regime. MAZIAR BAHARI: Yeah. Well, Iran has to say that again, because Khamenei and the regime, as a whole, need an enemy. JON STEWART: [NON-ENGLISH] That's the [NON-ENGLISH]. MAZIAR BAHARI: They need the [NON-ENGLISH], yeah, or [NON-ENGLISH], if you want to--. JON STEWART: [NON-ENGLISH]. MAZIAR BAHARI: --emulate [NON-ENGLISH]. JON STEWART: [NON-ENGLISH]. Right. MAZIAR BAHARI: Yeah. And in the Shah's time, there was no de-facto relationship. between Iran and Israel, but Israelis had up. to 10,000 people working in Iran in different.

industries, advisors. There was a direct flight between Tehran and Tel Aviv. JON STEWART: Really? MAZIAR BAHARI: Yeah. So ordinary Iranians-- there is no animosity. between Iran and Israel. JON STEWART: Is the Palestinian question not as. important to the Iranians? MAZIAR BAHARI: No, the thing is that the Palestinian question. is as important to Iranians as the situation of Rohingya.

being important to the Israelis. They are sad about it yes, of course, when they see. destroyed houses, their children, et cetera. They're sad about it, but it's not their issue. The same thing for the Israelis. The Israelis, when they look at the Rohingya in Burma, they're sad about it, but this is not something. that has to do with them. So many Iranians, they just don't understand why they are. stuck between a corrupt, violent government, a regime,

and a government in Israel that thinks that they can just bomb. everything, and the solution to everything. is bombing, including bringing democracy. And the icing on the cake was a few days ago, when the Israelis bombed Evin Prison in a symbolic gesture, that we want to bring freedom to Iran. JON STEWART: We are freeing you. MAZIAR BAHARI: And what happened? Many buildings were destroyed, many windows were shattered, and many prisoners were hurt seriously,

were injured seriously. And those are the people who hate the Iranian government, and those are the people who are the future of Iran. And the Israelis are hurting them because they want. to bring democracy to Iran. JON STEWART: Right. It's such a repeat of so many of the ill-founded efforts. that we have had in that region for these past 100 years. of that idea of, oh, we're going to bring democracy. How does the Saudi bloc and Qatar, UAE play into this?

Because I'm always surprised, given the brutality. of this campaign in Gaza, given this-- you know, there's a lot of rhetoric from Turkey, the Saudis, Qatar. Nobody seems to do anything. Nobody seems to want to get involved on behalf. of the Palestinians, like, to create--. Every now and again, they'll put out a kind of statement. about a peace plan that they were going to do,

but nobody will put skin in the game. And I'm wondering now, you know, as they're bombing Iran, the passivity of all. the other countries, is that tacit approval. of these actions? MAZIAR BAHARI: I wouldn't say that it's a tacit approval. Some of them, you know, because Iran has been trying. to have its proxies in different countries,

including Saudi Arabia, and it has cells in Bahrain. and UAE and Kuwait--. JON STEWART: Well, certainly, Hezbollah and Hamas. are the most well known. MAZIAR BAHARI: Yes, but also, they have the smaller groups. JON STEWART: And maybe the militias in Iraq. MAZIAR BAHARI: Smaller groups, they have, in Saudi Arabia, in Bahrain, and other places. And Iran and Saudi Arabia, they haven't. had a very brotherly relationship. since 1979, even before that.

But on one hand, many people among the Arab countries, around the Persian Gulf, they are kind of happy. that Iran and Israel are fighting and of the fact. that Iran is being weakened by Israel and the United States. But at the same time, because the security and stability. of the region, especially the Strait of Hormuz, where,

you know--. JON STEWART: So much oil and, yeah, moves through it. MAZIAR BAHARI: Yeah, 20% of the oil. produced in the world goes through the Strait. of Hormuz every day. They are worried about the stability of that region, so maybe, in their heart, they're happy that Iran. is being weakened. But when they think about it, the instability and insecurity. of the region is not something that. can be helping even the Persian Gulf, Arab countries.

JON STEWART: And for all that time, you know, again, people always talk about the off-ramps. I think what's so helpful about this, Maziar, is you giving us. the kind of context and background. about how Iran developed and how they got here. It gives us sort of an idea into the psychology of it. You know, you and I still live in the 1979 world,

to some extent. I would imagine that the majority of people now, in Iran, and in that region, do not, in any way, remember 1979, don't have any real ties to that, you know, the enemies and foes and friends of that time. It does present an opportunity to redefine. what that region can be. It seems insane to me that this region has been so fraught.

What are the real dangers? MAZIAR BAHARI: Well, you know, in Iran, the situation is not, like, as you described. Because in Iran, they celebrate the 1979 revolution every day. JON STEWART: They still live in that moment? MAZIAR BAHARI: Oh, yeah. People see pictures of Khomeini, Ayatollah. Ruhollah Khomeini, the founder of the revolution, every day. And people collectively remember the collective fuckup. that they had in 1979, who came to the streets and chanted,

"When the devil goes out, the angel comes in," meaning that. when the Shah goes out, the angel, Ruhollah Khomeini, will come in. And I think, yeah, I mean, the whole nation, even the young people who don't remember 1979--. and the majority of Iranians, maybe 85%, have been born after 1979. They still regret that historical mistake. that they made in 1979, to have a revolution without knowing,

without having a plan for the future. And that includes many people in the government now, people who were revolutionaries at the time. When you talk to them privately and sometimes, even publicly, when you talk to them, they say, we made a mistake. We should have given the Shah the opportunity. to reform the country. The Shah was afraid of the Soviets, of the communists, and then, maybe, after the collapse of Soviet Union,

there would be more openings. In any case, the situation would not be as bad. as it is now, and that is according to many people. within the Iranian government. JON STEWART: Are their resentments more internal, or are there resentments that-- look, we've imposed really devastating. sanctions on that country. I would imagine it's very easy for them to point to, as they did with you-- that you are an agent of the West, sent.

to weaken them. That's been their game plan. You've been the [NON-ENGLISH]. The West has been the [NON-ENGLISH]. for so long that--. how reflective are they? And even within Iran, for those who resent, you know, what would you say is the regime's. actual support level, you know, given. everything that's happened? MAZIAR BAHARI: Yeah, I would say based on the last election. that we had, the majority of people.

voted for the person who was not Khamenei's first choice. for president, you know, about 5 million to 6 million people, or maybe a little bit more, 7 million people, maybe, they voted for Jalili, who was Khamenei's. chosen candidate during the presidential election. last year. I would say that is the highest level of support. that you would have in the country, and that includes people who are getting. funding by the government, the intelligence agents, et cetera. But this question of sanctions is very important, because I.

think it's multi-layered. The problem is multi-layered. In order to impose targeted sanctions. against the nuclear program, against the human rights. violators, in terms of certain sectors. within the Iranian economy, you need. the bureaucracy to back it up. You need the people in the treasury,

in the state department, other places, in order to be able to liaise with the banks, saying that, OK, this pharmaceutical company that. wants to import medicine from the US or medical equipment. from the US can be exempted. They can have this OFAC license that, you know, the treasury issues for the exceptions. But that bureaucracy has not existed in the US government.

since the beginning, since 1979, when. Carter's administration imposed the sanction and, you know, neither Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Obama, Bush Sr., Bush Jr.--. none of them had that. And it doesn't exist at the moment. And at the same time, the Revolutionary Guards is not. only a military force in Iran. They are the biggest industrialists in Iran, and it has many companies.

It has shares in some private companies. So when the Revolutionary Guards Corps, IRGC, is proscribed, is subjected to sanctions, that. means that the pharmaceutical companies that are owned. by the Revolutionary Guards, the pharmaceutical companies. that bring medical equipment to Iran, they are subjected to sanctions as well.

That somehow resembles hiding among civilians. for the Revolutionary Guards, because it is like an octopus. It has its tentacles everywhere, in every aspect. of Iranian society. And sometimes, you know, you are a bookkeeper. or you're an accountant, working for a company, for a pharmaceutical company, and then the Revolutionary. Guards take over. You immediately become subjected. to sanctions by the American government.

and many other governments. So I think this question about sanctions. is very, very complicated. But I think the main reason for the sanctions. is the behavior of the Iranian government. In 1979, when the sanctions started, they started because a group of students, inspired. and supported by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, took over the American embassy in Tehran, meaning.

part of the American land. And I think that resentment still. exists among many American diplomats and actually, among many older Americans who are voting for--. JON STEWART: Absolutely. That's what I meant by, like, for the younger Americans, I don't think they have any foreknowledge of that. But for older people who still remember. the pain of that time--. that's why I'm saying, this seems like a moment where. we can finally break free from this kind.

of historic, self-defeating pattern. MAZIAR BAHARI: That requires reading and education, though. [LAUGHTER]. JON STEWART: Well, it's funny. The one thing Maziar was always really clear with me--. so we always talked about this, when we were sort of working. on the film, which was the difference. between incompetence and evil. And you were always really clear that so much of-- and we. tried to sort of insinuate that with the interrogator that used.

to-- that Kim Bodnia, who played your interrogator, that would come in--. This idea that they weren't evil as much. as ignorant and incompetent. And that chasm seems like it's only grown. And is the Revolutionary Guard the only organization. within Iran now that kind of functions as holding. that whole thing together? MAZIAR BAHARI: No, I think the civil society in Iran. is still very strong.

JON STEWART: Great. MAZIAR BAHARI: Iranians are educated. And since the Woman, Life, Freedom movement, Iranian society has changed a lot. You see stronger civil society groups. And these civil society groups, they are not, maybe, politically active, and they. want to topple the government. They are environmentalists. They are involved in providing employment to different people. They are targeting poverty in different parts of the group. So society, as a whole, is really progressing,

and it's really advancing, regardless of what. the government is doing. JON STEWART: Almost-- nature finds a way. MAZIAR BAHARI: Exactly. And somehow, many Iranians, in the absence. of any viable opposition to this government, are implicitly and explicitly asking the government, just leave us alone. Just leave us the fuck alone, which we want to do. We want to provide jobs. We want to clean the environment.

This is the air that we all are breathing. You know, let us clean the air. What's wrong with that? But the Revolutionary Guards, on the other hand, they are very organized. But again, the Revolutionary Guards is not a monolith. There are different factions within the Revolutionary Guards. who are fighting against each other. A voice file came out about five, six years ago. It was about the clash between Qasem Soleimani,

the former head of the Quds Force. and the commander of the Revolutionary Guards. And because of the fact that Soleimani was involved. in some money laundering, et cetera, that guy was criticizing him. So Revolutionary Guards is not a monolith as well. And also, you have to remember that--. and I hope that the American administration remembers. that as well, that many people are drafted. into Revolutionary Guards. So when a young person is graduating from high school.

or maybe not drafting and joins the army, they have a few choices. They can go to the army, the navy, or they can be drafted into Revolutionary Guards. And they have no ideological belonging. to the Revolutionary Guard. They don't ideologically support, but they're just drafted to the Revolutionary Guards. So the Revolutionary Guards is really not a monolith as well. Yeah. So in the absence of any viable opposition,

in the absence of any viable alternative, the majority of Iranians want security, they want peace, they want to be able to provide the basics for the family, whether under this government or not. JON STEWART: And have a sense of a future. I mean, it's--. MAZIAR BAHARI: And they want to have a sense of future. Yeah, I think that's very important. You know, when the Israelis, they're targeting Tehran.

and they're targeting civilian areas, or they're targeting oil refineries, and when people remember what the Israelis have done in Gaza, that doesn't give them the confidence. that the Israelis want to--. JON STEWART: Right. They have their best interests at heart. MAZIAR BAHARI: Exactly, that they want to work. with them in the future. JON STEWART: But see, this is what's so heartbreaking. about this region. And this is something that I think. I learned from working with you and from being over there.

I don't know of a region of the world. where there is a larger gap between the nature. of the people and the nature of their leadership, the extremities of people's leadership. in these areas versus--. I mean, I can remember when we sent Jason Jones, when we originally interviewed you during that time, of the Ahmadinejad election, a warmer group of people,

a better educated, a more artistic-- you will not find, when you go into, often, these regions that are being torn. apart by extremist violence, you know, the people in Palestine, a more hospitable, like, lovely--. with nothing, who--. I remember, we would go into those refugee camps in Jordan. People with nothing, who wanted only. to invite us in and feed us--.

and I was so struck by the gap between the beauty. of the hearts of those people and the hardness of the hearts. of the leadership. And I feel like that is where we're caught right now. MAZIAR BAHARI: Yeah. And when you travel to countries like Malaysia, or Thailand, or any other South Asian countries--. but I'm giving Malaysia as an example.

because it's a Muslim country, and they don't have. any relations with Israel. The majority of people don't like. Israel because of what it's doing to the Palestinians. But the Malaysian government does not build a weapon. and write, in Hebrew on it, death to Israel. They don't invest so much money into denying the Holocaust. into anti-Semitic propaganda. No, they don't have relations with Israel. But, you know, they're doing their job.

They have good relations with the US and everyone. JON STEWART: But it's not their reason for existing, to destroy them. MAZIAR BAHARI: Exactly. It's not the reason for this, and they don't. do anything about Israel. They just don't like it. They don't deal with them, that's all. Maybe they deal with them, with that, but it's not something that the Malaysians. wake up in the morning and say, death to Israel all the time. And, if you think about it, like, if you're an Israeli--. and I've been to Israel a few times in the past 10 years. or so. When you are an Israeli and you have this government that.

chants "death to Israel" all the time, as I said--. and the example I gave is the real example, that they build bombs and they wrote, in Hebrew on it, "death to Israel.". And at the same time, you see that they are funding groups. that are acting against you. That doesn't give you the confidence, as an Israeli, that you can deal with this government, and you think about doing something. JON STEWART: But you also have politicians in the Knesset.

saying, we should nuke Gaza. I mean, that's-- MAZIAR BAHARI: Exactly. JON STEWART: I can't imagine that's giving much confidence. on the other side. MAZIAR BAHARI: No, no, of course. I mean, there are some rabbis in Israel. who are saying that we have to emulate Iran. and we got to have a Jewish kingdom in Israel. But I mean, we're not talking about, like, the extremes. We are talking about normal people, for normal Israelis. JON STEWART: That's what I mean, the gap. MAZIAR BAHARI: Yeah, I think it would be interesting. But the problem is that there is the narrative, exactly,

that the ordinary Israelis, they do not. understand the narrative of ordinary Iranians. and vice versa. And if I want to blow my--. if I want to blow our own horn, it's. that what we are doing in Iran, where we're trying to somehow. translate these narratives for the Iranian audiences. about what the rest of the world are saying. and for the rest of the world, what the Iranians are saying. JON STEWART: And it kind of takes us.

around, sort of full circle, to what. we were talking about earlier. And we're talking to Maziar Bahari, who had been imprisoned. in Evin and has certainly-- you know, his family. had been arrested by the Shah. I mean, that's the other thing I want to make clear, is that Maziar's experience was with Khamenei and being. in solitary confinement. His father's experience was with similar repression,

but under the Shah. And so you've seen the US-aligned government. and the non-US-aligned government. acting in the same fashion, you know, as they say, meet the--. MAZIAR BAHARI: With the same but similar fashion. JON STEWART: A similar fashion. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Is there some way--. and this is probably a question beyond all of it-- where. a country born in revolution--. And let's say the birthday is '79 or, in Israel,

born in Zionism or whatever it was that created it through, that they mature past this existential tightrope that they. seem to always feel like they're walking and get past. whatever they believe is the fear or humiliation of actions.

and take this chance of maturing past that moment. and giving their good people an opportunity. to rejoin the family of other nations and--. MAZIAR BAHARI: Act normal. JON STEWART: --still, obviously, have. issues and act fucking normal. Like, that--. MAZIAR BAHARI: Just act fucking normal. JON STEWART: That's it. Act fucking normal. MAZIAR BAHARI: Act normal, like, you know, the government. of Malaysia, for example. It's not the best government in the world, but it doesn't wake. up and say "death to America.".

You know, it took you about two or three. minutes to ask that question. JON STEWART: [LAUGHS]. MAZIAR BAHARI: I think that process--. it was a long question. No, but it's a--. JON STEWART: I was trying to work my way through. MAZIAR BAHARI: No, no, no, but it's-- no, but it's important for the right question to be asked. You need to take your time. You need to think about it, and you need to articulate it. For this change that you're asking about, people have to think about it. People have to introspect, and people have.

to come up with solutions. The Iranian society-- the majority of Iranians. are doing that. What you're asking about is not going to happen. as a result of a bombing. It's not going to happen as a result of sudden change. As I said, after Woman, Life, Freedom, Iranian society was changing. It has been changing. This set of bombing, this 12-Day War, I'm not sure whether it's going to be an obstacle to that,

or it may have weakened the regime to a certain extent, that they may listen to people. If they're wise enough, they would be listening to people. and not worry about hijab and things like that, and they would just try to have people on their side. and survive, but survive in a more normal way. But there's also the fear, the danger. that they go Ayatollah Khomeini's way,

that after 1988, after defeat from Iraq, the military defeat, they can close the society. But one way or another, I am very hopeful about. the long-term future of Iran, because the people I talk. to, the young women and men I talk. to, especially young women--. I think the Iranian women, they're just--. really, their future is theirs. And when you think about the sacrifices that they've made,

the amount of shit they have to go through since 1979. and even before that, and their resilience. and their brilliance, you can see that the future of Iran. can be in the hands of these women. And I'm very hopeful about the long-term future of Iran. But in the short term, especially. in the next few months, after such. a humiliating defeat by Israelis and Americans,

I'm not sure. There might be some tragedies happening in the next few days, weeks, and months. JON STEWART: And I can remember, you and I would talk about these movements and the Green. Movement and when they would dissipate, the people would come out on the street, the Basij or the Revolutionary Guard. would put it down violently. And you said something to me once that really. struck with me, which was, the people of Iran.

decided they like life more than they like freedom--. MAZIAR BAHARI: That's it. JON STEWART: --and that they were tired of, for their freedom, having to put. themselves in such harm's way. MAZIAR BAHARI: They want to celebrate life. They just want to have a normal life. JON STEWART: Right. MAZIAR BAHARI: One of the most famous songs that. came out of Woman, Life, Freedom, it's called "Baraye," "For.". And the main line in that song is "for a normal life,".

and that is something that people have been fighting. for, just the normal life. I want to go out. I want to buy a piece of bread. I want to just, you know, hang out with my friends. I want to drink coffee. And that is not allowed lot in a normal Iran right now. JON STEWART: And that is not against god, and that is not. something that guys on motorcycles with fucking sticks. should drive through us and start beating us. as we're doing it. MAZIAR BAHARI: And the sad thing. is that they are shooting themselves in the foot, and they are undermining their own authority by alienating.

people, by alienating people who may have rallied around. them at the time of war, at the time that a foreign country has. invaded the land. But unfortunately, I'm sure that they're not going to learn. from this, and they're going to continue with this morality. police and things like that. JON STEWART: Well, Maziar, this has. been, for me, just wonderful to see you,

wonderful to catch up with you. MAZIAR BAHARI: Lovely to see you, too. JON STEWART: It's so nice to see you still just passionately. doing the work, you know? And I hope the listeners can tell from Maziar. You know, I've always said, like, you're a renaissance man. Like, the amount of knowledge that Maziar has-- and you heard. it on display, but, man, get him going on film and music, and it gets even deeper and more specific. So--. MAZIAR BAHARI: You know, you can always find good analogies. with Bee Gees and Seinfeld.

So, you know, if you know a few Bee. Gees and Seinfeld analogies, I think you're set for life. Yeah. JON STEWART: He can pull them in. Very few people, custodians of history, have that same knowledge of the disco era that that Maziar has. MAZIAR BAHARI: Well, thank you very much. Very nice to see you, too. JON STEWART: Yeah, wonderful. And IranWire is just this incredible platform. that allows people in Iran to still. have a voice outside of Iran and get their stories out.

And Maziar has been doing that work for now. It's got to be, what, 10, 12 years? MAZIAR BAHARI: 12 years now. Yeah. JON STEWART: 12 years now. MAZIAR BAHARI: It's also available in English, so people can go to IranWire.com. and read the articles in English. Or we are also on Substack. JON STEWART: Oh, look at you. Look at modern Maziar. Very nice. MAZIAR BAHARI: Exactly. JON STEWART: All right. Well, it's just lovely to see you. Maziar Bahari. MAZIAR BAHARI: Yeah, you, too. Thank you. [UPBEAT MUSIC]. JON STEWART: How much you love Maziar Bahari?

LAUREN WALKER: So funny. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Love. GILLIAN SPEAR: He's so great. And he is a dead ringer for Peter Sellers. When he said that, it really-- JON STEWART: He is. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: It clicked for me. And Peter Sellers never let race get in the way. of a good part, so--. JON STEWART: No. No. And by the way, then that's why we. had Gael, a Mexican national, playing an Iranian national. And I remember saying to Maziar, when we were first, you know, gonna do the movie, I said, Maziar, I have this idea.

All Iranian cast, and maybe, even, we do it in Farsi. And this is gonna be the most naturalistic portrayal. And he was like, don't you want people. to see the movie, you know? GILLIAN SPEAR: He's like, my first rule. is, he has to be handsome. JON STEWART: That actually was his first rule. He thought Gael was close to handsome, so he was good there. But it's so great to hear him. And very few people have, again,

his knowledge of history, but also culture, and are so agile. He's so agile in the way that he weaves it all together. But you can tell that he's worried, and I think he has so many friends. and family members and people that I think. he's really concerned about. And I think, you know, the uncertainty of the moment, I could see, is weighing on him. GILLIAN SPEAR: Absolutely.

LAUREN WALKER: It was so good, though, to get those first-person accounts. through him, of what young people. are saying on the ground. And it's just because that's so often. lost in this conversation, what the Iranian people want. for the future of their country. GILLIAN SPEAR: Just the breadth of what I don't know. about Iran, what I assume most Americans don't know. about Iran, what I feel confident saying our leaders. don't know about Iran is--. LAUREN WALKER: At least Ted Cruz. GILLIAN SPEAR: Staggering. JON STEWART: Right. Well, I can't even remember when we did Rosewater,

you know, we talked a lot about it. And the idea was like, if you're an American, this was the most nuanced view inside Iran you'd ever seen. But if you were Iranian, it probably. felt like an utter farce, two-dimensional sledgehammer. You know what I mean? Like, that's the gap between our understandings. of the separate countries. And you can see how those gaps lead. to such devastating outcomes.

And I think Maziar said it best. He said, it's not a monolith. There are those that really support. and are really locked into that revolutionary mindset. And there are those that are just like, we just want to fucking live our lives. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah, and who can't relate to that? LAUREN WALKER: Totally. I was thinking about something you all were saying, which is, the generosity of the people on the ground. not matching what the leadership has to say. And it is also, by design, keeping. information from people and framing things a certain way.

And we saw that with the attack on the base in Qatar, where the internet is cut off from Iran, and they just declared victory. And so I think it makes sense--. JON STEWART: That destroyed the base. LAUREN WALKER: Yeah. We need to, like, take a moment and think about what. information is actually reaching people before we just. assume that we disagree with them. and this will be a protracted battle forever. JON STEWART: And I think he very smartly said, you know, and there are a lot of people there. that are grabbing VPNs or ways of bypassing.

But that is always going to be a narrower swath of the people. And so we don't know the story that they're being told. And by the way, before we get too high on ourselves, we're not sure the story we're being told. LAUREN WALKER: Oh, of course. JON STEWART: And, you know, it's been obliterated. They're done. It's over. We had to do it. They were within days. They were-- who the fuck knows anymore? Now, we are off next week, right? LAUREN WALKER: Yes, we are.

BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yes, we are. JON STEWART: A little celebration. of America's birthday there. LAUREN WALKER: Or Big, Beautiful Bill, if that happens. JON STEWART: Oh, Christ. It's another one where watching them all have to say that. reminds me of, like, whenever you call Disney, and they have to end every conversation with. "and have a beautiful Disney day" or whatever. the fuck they have--. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Have a magical day. JON STEWART: --or "have a magical day.". And when they say Big, Beautiful Bill, it feels like a hostage video at almost every turn. Just ridiculous. But, Brittany, what-- let's answer the listeners.

before we get going, and then we'll head off into the sunset. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Sure thing. First up, we've got, "Jon, do you think Donald Trump should. get the Nobel Peace Prize?". JON STEWART: Sure. Kissinger got it. Why not? Whoever's got the bombs, give them the prize. What the fuck does it even matter? The idea that winning that is somehow--. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Means anything at this point? GILLIAN SPEAR: Well, there's a big cash prize. I think that's why he's into it.

JON STEWART: Oh, is that what he's--. why doesn't he just make his own? He does his own meme coin. Make his own. Do the Trump Peace Prize, award it to yourself, and then have it for the rest of the time. You'd rather have it that anyway. GILLIAN SPEAR: That's such a solid prediction. He's going to. JON STEWART: Right. The Trump Prize will be given to whoever it was that did. the most towards world peace. And it turns out, it's me. Oh, my god. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: I win, guys. JON STEWART: And they'll hold the reception at the Kennedy. Center, where he runs it.

It'll be perfect. And remember, he said he was gonna be a world-class--. I don't remember what he said. Violinist, flutist? Whatever it was that he said. He was talking to somebody saying. he could have been world class in an instrument, and he can play the music. He's a one-man band. What do we need anything else for? LAUREN WALKER: He plays the flute? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Who the fuck knows? JON STEWART: He said-- he was in an interview, and he was saying to somebody, he could have. been a world-class musician. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Could have been. JON STEWART: Whatever else. Yeah, he just decided.

GILLIAN SPEAR: Same. LAUREN WALKER: Yeah. JON STEWART: Oh, how the world could have been different. What else we got? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Next up, we've. got, "If you were stranded on an island, Colbert or Carell? JON STEWART: Oh, that's easy. A boat. I would have a boat. Why would I have-- why would I have one of those. two knuckleheads, who--. neither of us--. By the way, that's not even a choice on an island. Like, there's not a survival skill amongst the three of us. It wouldn't matter who you had on there.

We'd all be gone within three days, so none of us. A boat. I'd want a boat--. LAUREN WALKER: Fair enough. JON STEWART: --for god's sakes. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: There we go. JON STEWART: But this is great. I hope you guys have a great week off. Boy, you guys have been fantastic. And give yourselves a good time to decompress. Brittany, what-- how do they keep in touch with us? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Twitter, we are @WeeklyShowPod. Instagram threads, TikTok, Bluesky,

we are @WeeklyShowPodcast. And you can like, subscribe, and comment. on our YouTube channel, The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart. JON STEWART: Boom. Roasted. Lead producer, Lauren Walker. Producer, Brittany Mehmedovic. Video editor and engineer, Rob Vitolo. Audio editor and engineer, Nicole Boyce. Researcher and associate producer, Gillian Spear. And our executive producers, Chris McShane, Caity Gray. Guys, have a wonderful week off. We will see you all--. LAUREN WALKER: The week after. JON STEWART: --the week after, early July. Thanks so much and see you next time. Bye-bye.

The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart. is a Comedy Central podcast. It was produced by Paramount Audio and Busboy Productions. [UPBEAT MUSIC].