How Social Media Exacerbates Disaster & Disinformation | The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart

[THEME MUSIC]. JON STEWART: Hello, everybody. Welcome once again to The Weekly Show Podcast. My name is Jon Stewart. We're recording on a Wednesday. I'm even going to tell you around the time. It's around noon. I want to tell you the time. Because last time we recorded on a Wednesday, I thought, well, geez, something, you know, just let them know it's on a Wednesday. And it'll be out on Thursday. And obviously by Wednesday night, there. was the horrific assassination and not.

addressed in any way in the podcast because of that. So I'm preemptively suggesting that we don't know what happens. in 24 hours anymore in this general shit show of a society. that we're working on now. On a positive note, Colbert won an Emmy, The Late Show. Well deserved. Thank goodness. It was lovely to see the response from the audience. in Los Angeles and in the country. showing much deserved love, much deserved, well earned.

And it was really lovely to watch. And I thought his words were perfect and beautiful. and a little bit of a tonic in what is just a sad--. it's difficult to even muster the kind. of necessary performative enthusiasm. for these types of intros at some level. One thing I should mention is I hope. people realize that shitposting after tragedies.

is not mandatory. I don't know if people know that you don't have. to say the worst thing you can possibly think of. to inflame the spirits of people who may be suffering. You can actually write it in a journal. and put that Journal under your mattress. and not demonstrate to all those. around you that you really lack humanity.

You could write it on a piece of paper. and then chew it and swallow it rather than--. it is not a mandatory. You don't have to caveat. You don't have to go out. That's one of my least favorite. I don't agree with everything he said. But he shouldn't have been killed. Just fucking don't say anything. Because the truth is, this is-- it's one thing. It's this. It's these individuals who believe themselves to be judge, jury, and executioner who are-- a vigilante society is not.

a society. And that's the part that cannot stand. And ironically, they then find themselves. in the warm embrace of every entitlement. that our legal system has to offer. And as I'm watching all the cable news go through all. their preordained steps and all that, I actually. came upon an article in The Atlantic.

that I thought was really interesting, that talked about--. less about the individual event and more. about the system around it that we. really don't know a lot about. And it is an enigma to so many people. And it's not talked a little bit. So I wanted to bring that writer of that article. onto the program to have that conversation, which I think could be illuminating to some extent.

But man, oh, man. [THEME MUSIC]. All right. So we're going to get to our guest. He is a staff writer at The Atlantic. He's the author of the Atlantic's newsletter, "Galaxy Brain.". Charlie Warzel is joining us. Charlie, thank you for joining us. CHARLIE WARZEL: Thank you for having me. JON STEWART: Charlie, in the week that has followed. this terrible, terrible incident, I have read and seen and heard pages of print,

hours of chatter, much of it circular, unhelpful, much of. it hurtful. Your article on this assassination was, I thought, one of the most interesting macro views. You know, a lot of people are talking about--. I'll liken it to something else.

A lot of people are talking about the weather. You seem to be talking about the climate. Everybody wanted to point fingers. at a very specific point of blame. You're talking about a cultural shift in the atmosphere, the complexities of this new communication world. and how these individuals exist in the world. Do you want to talk a little bit about that? Charlie, talk a little bit about the thesis. of your article. CHARLIE WARZEL: Yeah, sure. So this whole thing happened last week.

And as usual, I think for most of us now, you watch this stuff unfold online. You may be seeing stuff happening on cable news. or wherever you are or however you're getting it. But these things play out over all. of our different social feeds. It's very fractured. It's very confusing. I happen, for my job, to be more plugged in probably. than the average person. But--. JON STEWART: Explain your job very. quickly to give a background. CHARLIE WARZEL: Yeah, so I cover technology and media.

and politics essentially. So just how the internet weirds everything that it touches. And I've been doing that for about 15 years. JON STEWART: The three horsemen of the apocalypse, as it were. CHARLIE WARZEL: That's right. That's right. And so I'm watching this play out. And the moment that I watched this video pop into my feed. on wherever, Bluesky, X, you name the thing, watching essentially someone being murdered.

in front of your face and all the horror. that comes with that. I felt this genuine roller coaster drop, pit stomach. feeling for a lot of reasons. The first reason being, it's horrifying to watch. someone get murdered. It's you immediately sort of think about who the person is. I know who Charlie Kirk is, young family, young father, all of those human reasons.

why you feel horrible. But the next reason I felt horrible. was I knew exactly how this was going to play out. JON STEWART: You knew what was coming. CHARLIE WARZEL: I have watched this. happen for more than a decade on these different platforms. And the cycle only refines itself. It only gets faster. It only gets smoother. The participants only know how to-- know what their roles. in in the production. They only get better at it. It's more efficient. And what I believed was going to happen, outside.

of the political ramifications of this, or even like the cultural ramifications, what. was about to happen was an immediate, like, the two polarized sides of our discourse. were immediately going to take this. and fit it into their ideological box, like, in one second. And we saw this--. especially, there is--. I'd love to talk more about this. But there is this, I think, a real asymmetry between the two. polarized sides. But I'm scrolling through my feed.

It's not clear what has actually. happened to Charlie Kirk. We don't have any information. One of the first things I see is. an Elon Musk tweet that the left. are murderers, essentially. JON STEWART: Well, he's not a very influential. force on that platform. So I don't imagine anybody saw that. CHARLIE WARZEL: It's not like he. owns it or anything like that. And so I started watching this. I have feeds that I've set up to monitor some of these shock.

jocks, some of these influencers, some of these pundits, whatever, people across this spectrum. And it was very clear immediately. that this was going to-- this was war, essentially, especially for the far right. JON STEWART: Supercharged, online, and performative. CHARLIE WARZEL: Yeah, I mean, immediately. pointing the finger of blame. This is what happens. No need for evidence. I mean, when these types of things happen,

motives take a while to--. I mean, just physically you need. to go to usually to the person's house. unless they've left, like, a note right. there in the crime scene. Like, you have to apprehend the killer. You have to know things, information. And what we have in the aftermath of these big events. is an information vacuum. And the internet has become so good at filling that. The internet abhors an information vacuum. And it basically incentivizes all.

of these people through these different social media. feeds to fill it. And there is this attentional incentive baked into that. Elon Musk is performing essentially. Whether he believes it or not, like, whatever. But what he's doing when he's tweeting, when they still haven't probably moved Charlie Kirk's. body to a hospital to be treated, is this notion of I. am going to give this crowd what it wants.

JON STEWART: And in some ways give himself what he wants, which is the dopamine hit of that engagement. Everybody online is-- they're looking for those hits. Charlie, is this based on--. is this rewiring our brains? How much of this is cynical? How much of this is a biohack? In the same way I liken it to, if you're. a chef in a restaurant and you want people to eat your food,

like you've got some hacks. You'll throw in a little sugar into the marinara. You'll put a little fat, a little oil, a little salt, a little something. to get people lip-smacking good. That's one thing. But there are labs where people work on ultra-processed food. that's designed to hack your body's ability to stop you. from eating, that force you in some ways. beyond your ability to control it, to continue to eat.

Is that the insidious secret sauce that online. is ultra-processed speech? CHARLIE WARZEL: It's a really interesting way to put it. I want to be careful with like terms. like rewiring because there is this great debate that. is going on about, like, how bad are the phones? How bad is the internet? How bad is-- what is it doing? What is it doing to--.

what is it doing to kids? What is it doing to adults? I fall into the camp of it's very clear that something. is going on here. Like, I can't leave this thing ever. It's right next to me. I'm doing a freaking podcast with you. JON STEWART: We poop with it. For God's sakes, Charlie, we poop with it. CHARLIE WARZEL: Yes, among other things. And so there's clearly something going on. There's something with the dopamine,

with the way-- with the intermittent reward cycle. Because you post something. You do something for this crowd. And you never know. It's not reliable whether or not. the world is going to shower you with the attention. and the affection that you want or whether the algorithms. from these companies are going to do that. So you have this. You're pulling the slot machine all the time. What it's doing long term, I'm not exactly sure. But what is very clear is that it.

is changing our incentives, like our behavioral incentives. And I think it is turning us often. into the worst possible versions of ourselves. I think a lot about the way that tech. companies and algorithms work, with food as well. But the way I think about it is if you said to somebody, hey, I'm going to try to diet this year. Right? I'm going to try to eat well and get fit, whatever. Part of that is every day at 4 o'clock, I'm going to exercise.

Seven days a week, I'm doing it. Right? I want to be a better person or a better version of myself. And then, every day that friend at 3:57 slides you a donut. [LAUGHTER]. JON STEWART: What a dick. CHARLIE WARZEL: Exactly. And says to you, you don't have to eat that donut. But it's there. I mean, you could nibble it. You know how much you like donuts.

Right? And you eat the donut because it's been a long day. You're in a moment of weakness, Whatever it is. You just feel like you know you want to do it. And then, the way you feel--. JON STEWART: See, that's the thing though I would say. that they understand the bio-rhythmic changes. in your day to know the exact right time to wave that donut. under your nose, that it's almost. worse than just being a dick. It's that it's--. I mean, I was watching the trending topics, Charlie,

like a horse race, hoping upon hope--. like, this is what's happened to us. You're praying that it's not committed by somebody. that the other side can weaponize. And so you're watching. You know, trans start to trend. And then Groyper starts to trend. And then, this other thing starts to trend. And it's all--. I don't want to say misinformation. because you don't know yet, it's non-information.

It's merely accelerants. These are just accelerants. [THEME MUSIC]. All right, folks. I'm going to share something with you. You might not know. I'm lazy. But you know, when I talk about that, I'm talking about obviously food, eating food. Cooking food takes time. And I'm hungry now. But I got to tell you something.

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is an intended consequence. Like, when you say something like, there's almost like an understanding, like the biorhythms and things like that, I think a lot of it. is actually dumber than that. I think that these algorithms are optimized for engagement, just broad engagement. They don't care whether or not that engagement is screaming. to end the rights of trans people or that engagement is, like, look at this kitten. It's furry and beautiful and LOL.

JON STEWART: Don't you think they. understand that outrage and fear travels. faster than even adorability? That when you monetize or maximize for that, don't you think they know? I mean, I watch it on the evening news, man. They understand that, like, if a terrible crime happened. in the Bronx and they've got video of it, that's what's going. They always save the "and in America First tonight". is always the last story where they're like.

a girl sold a cupcake for adoption shelter. Like, they know what drives the most engagement. CHARLIE WARZEL: They absolutely do. I'm not trying to let them off the hook. But I think the technology is dumber in that way. I mean, some of them are more sophisticated. I mean, TikTok, for example, is a genius, an evil, insidious. genius invention in that you are giving it, every time you scroll to a new video on TikTok, you are giving it a signal. It takes what that video is.

And it categorized 50 different ways. It's a sports video. It's a music. It's a band. Oh, it's this clip, this sound clip, whatever it is. And you're voting every six seconds or less. If you flick off something really quickly, your algorithm changes just an infinitesimal bit. They say, oh, Charlie's not into that today. JON STEWART: Do you understand how these work, Charlie? Are you privy in any way to these algorithms?

CHARLIE WARZEL: No. And nobody's really. You have to-- these are company secrets. JON STEWART: But how is that possible? Think about it with food. Right? They have to tell us what's in it. Now, they don't have to tell us that beaver. anus has been substituted for strawberry flavoring. But there does have to be a chemical listing there. How is it possible that these programs, which. have such an impact on our lives. and certainly on the lives of young people, have no responsibility to the public to, in any way,

deconstruct how the fuck they're put together. and what they're doing to us? CHARLIE WARZEL: I think there's two reasons. I think the first reason is simply. that the way that regulation works, the way to get. all this going works so much slower. than these companies work. So any time they're tried to be put in a box by lawmakers,

things change. The whole paradigm changes. You make a rule to govern Facebook. after the 2016 election, say-- which it didn't happen. But like, say you did that. And then, ByteDance from China comes up with TikTok. And there's this whole new way. There's a whole new thing. There's a little of that going on. I guess maybe there's three things. There's also a lack of understanding. Very clearly. Like, Congress has gotten slightly better. But there's a lack of understanding.

Third, I think is the horrific--. it's the same problem we were just talking about polarization. of all this stuff. There is, from the left, this desire of, hey, we have clearly a neo-Nazi problem on some. of these websites and platforms and these harassment problems. and these things of targeting real human beings, swatting them, doxing them, getting them in trouble. with their job, getting them fired, all these actual real world harms.

These are not necessarily, like, vague speech harms. These are real world harms and things that are happening. You have that as the perspective. that progressives come to this fight with it. And then on the right, you have this sort. of free speech maximalist in theory idea, which is--. if anything is, if you try to do anything. to these platforms whatsoever, you are putting. your finger on the scales.

It's cloaked in this idea of free speech. It doesn't talk about the fact that--. there's a line from this researcher, Renee DiResta, who. is great on all these topics. And she has talked about freedom of speech. and freedom of reach. And these platforms, with their algorithms, are about reach. It's not about speech necessarily. You can say a lot of stuff on these platforms. And it gets through. Or now, a lot of these platforms.

don't care about content moderation. But the whole part of the algorithm. is what is it boosting? What is it sending out to more people? Right? It's different than standing in the town square. and speaking versus standing at it. and having a bullhorn that reaches entire municipalities. or whatnot. JON STEWART: Or knowing in the town square. when you're going to show up and then following you. Because they also do that. There's notification. If somebody on your list puts something out there, you know they're in the town square.

And you can run and harass them. CHARLIE WARZEL: Or waking you up when you're asleep. and telling you, hey, you got to listen to this. Right? JON STEWART: Right. CHARLIE WARZEL: And so you have this argument that is coming. from the right, which is basically any attempt to shut. down some of this political intimidation, some of these communities that exist to harass and belittle. and cause this physical world violence, that is immediately seen by the right as this putting.

the fingers on the scales of who. gets to speak and who doesn't. JON STEWART: Or it was, like, until a week ago. And now, it's not. CHARLIE WARZEL: Or until they get power. JON STEWART: Or until it's not convenient. and they want to get somebody else out there. CHARLIE WARZEL: Until they get power. Elon Musk's whole reason, supposedly, for buying Twitter, which is now X, was this idea of restoring free speech, right? That Democrats have censored conservatives forever. So he buys the company.

He reinstates people like Alex Jones, a couple of neo-Nazis. You know, just a whole slew of people who've been banned, not because of their speech, but because they. broke the rules. JON STEWART: Because it's a platform. It's not the government. CHARLIE WARZEL: Right. And does all this and very clearly. has put his fingers on all kinds of different. scales there. JON STEWART: MechaHitler would say. that he's turned Grok into--. CHARLIE WARZEL: Yeah. JON STEWART: And that's what I'm saying, though, it's.

completely obscured. You can't see into it. CHARLIE WARZEL: Right. And so this also causes regular people--. I've been watching this happen for over a decade--. to become conspiracy theorists about what. happened to the thing that they posted or said. Right? There are so many people I know who are totally just regular, not public figure type people who have said, I think I'm being shadow banned.

I think I'm being shadow banned by X or Facebook or whatever. I'm like, you're probably not on their radar. You know? Like if you're just a regular person living your life, but because these things are so opaque, because we don't know. what is happening, we create these different stories for why. this post didn't go viral or why I'm not getting followed. as much as I think I should or, you know, why x, y, or z is happening. But the reality is too that there is stuff happening. These companies are tweaking these things.

I mean, Elon Musk-- JON STEWART: Of course. It's not free speech. It's ultra-processed speech, an algorithm. It's one thing-- look, the fact that it links you. to other people, the fact that it drives comments. and the comments drive more engagement. is what turns it from free speech. into ultra-processed speech. It is designed to pull you further and further. into the platform and further and further down. the rabbit holes.

There is gravity. There is inertia. There are forces there that are at work that are not at work. in normal free speech settings that. are manipulating the dynamics. CHARLIE WARZEL: One of the most sobering stories of this that I. covered right after the 2020 election, right after January 6. was I was looking at different people who had stormed. the Capitol and looking through their social media presences.

And there's one guy who was a kind. of small-time, right-wing influencer. And I went back. We downloaded his whole Facebook account. to look at, like, a decade. And it was very clear that it's starting in like 2014, 2015, he was trying to get-- he was just a guy who was. trying to get some attention. He was, hey, like, look at my stand-up comedy thing. No, that's not working. OK, open mic night. And like, all these different-- here's. my startup, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, all these things.

Nothing catches on. And then sometime during COVID, he. posts something about vaccines, just not even-- not even that. Just sort of, like, I'm kind of skeptical of this thing. The post, he was getting maybe one. or two likes on every single post, 250 likes. The next post, a little further. He goes just a little bit further with it. Right? Cut to six months later.

This guy is storming the Capitol. and vlogging himself doing it. And it's like, that's it right there. You know? JON STEWART: Do you think this is-- that it's--. that the difficulty here is you're creating a kind of army. of nihilist influencers because you. have to-- to get the dopamine hit, look, we've--. anybody out there who's done drugs--. me being one of them--.

understands that, like, part of the problem with drugs. is to get that same hit, you got to go further. Like, that's the issue that it goes very quickly from, I feel a part of something to I need this somewhere. that my nervous system has overtaken. this, that the pleasure is now not pleasure. It's desperation. CHARLIE WARZEL: And I think the worst. part about all of this, though, is that for some people--.

I think that that's accurate how you're describing it. Some people get rewarded and figure it out. And I mean, if you look at the political situation. that we have in the aftermath of the Kirk stuff. We have an influencer who was assassinated. The Trump administration sent two podcasters. who just happened to be working for the FBI to Utah.

to investigate that. JON STEWART: You're talking about Kash. Patel and Dan Bongino, who are now the heads of the FBI. CHARLIE WARZEL: Sent two other influencers, like people who've made their bones using all these platforms. to create these audiences and continue to ratchet up. the takes that they put out. And the vice president of the United States. hosted the influencer show, you know,

posthumously, Kirk's show. I mean, you just have these influencer dynamics. because the show must go on. Right? JON STEWART: But don't you think some of that. is because power understands? Look, propaganda and information, whoever controls that has a huge advantage. in terms of political power. And so they're just understanding how to weaponize. these various platforms. And everybody is trying to do that to whatever aim it is.

Every medium that came before it had the same problem. I've never seen it supercharged in this manner. It's not that people didn't--. Father Coughlin loved radio. Once radio hit, his propaganda was supercharged. Television had the same thing. Man, everybody remembers Morton Downey Jr. That wasn't so much. political, or Jerry Springer. But it was a ratcheting up of dopamine hits. to watch something.

And you saw. Those things aren't sustainable. They start to spin out of control into caricature. Even though it's done that online. It hasn't been a detriment to the purveyors of it. [THEME MUSIC]. All right, guys, these days every headline. feels like it's been engineered to make you either. furious, terrified, or both. It is-- it's honestly maddening. Like, you can't even--. you can't watch it. You can't read it.

You can't deal with it. Well, Ground News is here to help you fight back. against the tyranny of reptilian emotion. that these other news organizations. are trying to hit you with. It's a response to this fear and anger-based media. They don't tell you how to think or feel. They aggregate and organize information just. to help readers make their own decisions. Ground News provides users reports that easily compare. headlines or reports that give a summarized breakdown. of the specific differences in reporting.

across all the spectrum. It's a great resource. Go to groundnews.com/stewart and subscribe for 40% off. the unlimited access vantage subscription, brings the price. down to about $5 a month. It's groundnews.com/stewart or scan the QR code on the screen. [THEME MUSIC]. CHARLIE WARZEL: It's all personalized too. That's the big difference. Because if you are--. again like what I was saying with the stuff on TikTok.

and the scrolling and giving those micro feedbacks. to tailor everything to your interests perfectly, right? There are a lot of people who are coming. to any influencer who is polarizing, whether it's. Charlie Kirk or whomever. They're coming to them in the exact right way. It's not like a clip of the influencer saying something. that they might disagree with. It's them talking about the subject. that they care about, that they like. They're finding--.

Influencers will spend a lot of time on air or a lot of--. and they will clip up these things in all kinds of ways. Because they're also trying to find as broad and diverse. an audience. They'll talk about cancel culture and Netflix specials. or whatever or the movie of the week that matters. or the little thing. And then, they'll talk about sports. JON STEWART: And the aggregators at. the larger media companies will find the most explosive clips.

And they'll put that out. Every-- I mean, the one thing that I want to say. is everybody's playing the same game. And that is to join in this new, kind of, everything is content economy. And an assassination, I think the thing that has been so. jarring is that an assassination is content, is another driver of everybody's.

I picked up these followers. I did-- people shitposting, people. posting horrible things about a family. that's just lost a father. All of this. And you know what was interesting to watch? Cable television sort of displaying its own vestigial. uselessness, that they're going back and forth as though they.

might be the issue when they're not even. part of the game right now. They're following-- and by the way, this kid, he's on Discord or some other platform. Why you would name your platform after, like, argument. No, it's Discord. It's shittiness. But who even knows the ecosystem. that he's swimming in?

We don't know any of this. CHARLIE WARZEL: It doesn't look-- doesn't. look like it was a great one. JON STEWART: How could it be, right? CHARLIE WARZEL: So the charging document. or whatever we're calling it of the shooter, first of all, I don't want to name the shooter because that's. also a part of all of this. Like, these mass shooters now are showing us. with each of these killings that they. are absorbing all of this. They're absorbing how you and I talk about it, how.

I write about it, how cable news portrays. it, all of these things. So in that charging document, the shooter. inscribed a bunch of different hyper very online phrases. on the bullets and stuff. Right? And was texting with the roommate right after--. or right before the assassination. JON STEWART: The roommate or the boyfriend. or girlfriend-- like, they're in a relationship I think. It seems. But again, who the fuck knows?

CHARLIE WARZEL: Right. And said-- I can't get it like directly quoted. But it's something like if I see. whatever the phrase is on Fox News, like, I'm going to lose it. Essentially saying, like, it's a troll. Like, the bullets, these things--. JON STEWART: Oh, my god, you're saying-- they're. saying, oh, if you do that and you get on Fox News, like, you win the day on the internet. Like, you've won. So these people are like assassination influencers, like murder influencers.

CHARLIE WARZEL: Exactly. JON STEWART: You know, there was, on the very same day, there was a 16-year-old kid who shot. up his high school in Denver. Right? And again, hasn't really received the coverage. because I don't think it fits as. well into the algorithms engagement model. But apparently, this kid was involved. in a whole other subculture online that.

is a public murder subculture, if that's. to use the wrong phrase. But do you know anything about that subculture as well? Or is it all part of the same weird thing? CHARLIE WARZEL: So it's very amorphous. Like, online communities tend to be this way. I mean, some of them are very rigid. But generally, the best thing and the worst thing. about the internet is that if you are somebody who feels very.

alone and has some really niche things, like, I love whatever this trombone player, I'm growing up in Iowa, I feel like I'm a weirdo. I'm ostracized by whatever. You can go on the internet. And you can find the 11 other people. who, like, have that strange hobby, that strange, weird thing. And you can find each other. And there's great stories there. Like, it's a wonderful thing. The exact same thing, works with people. who love and are really interested in the Columbine.

shooting, and not because they think. it's an interesting historical thing. It's because they idolize the killers. The internet puts these different communities together. And then, not quite exactly the same. as if Netflix's "if you liked this show, you might be interested in.". But organically, there is this sort of referral thing. where, oh, you're involved with this very kind. of messed up subculture.

Well, there's some people on the outskirts. who are part of that. And they'll help introduce you. And so there are these. There's Terrorgram, which is basically. like a terrorist subculture, like public acts of terrorism, but not joining ISIS or whatever. Like, it's just like regular people. who are fascinated by this and want. to take up a political cause. There's this far-right neo-Nazi kind of stuff that's very. real and actually bigoted.

JON STEWART: Luigi Mangione has an entire subculture. of supporters for vigilante assassins. Like, it's-- and I don't know if that's--. the thing you don't know is are they part of those communities. or are they lionized by those communities. but were separate from that? Like, is there-- what's the causation. CHARLIE WARZEL: We have some evidence in certain instances.

JON STEWART: All right. Talk about that. CHARLIE WARZEL: So probably get the particulars wrong. But there are two recent school shootings from last year. and early this year in Nashville. and in Madison, Wisconsin. And I'm going to confuse which is which. But there was reporting, investigative reporting. that shows that they crossed paths online. JON STEWART: The two shooters separately.

knew each other online. CHARLIE WARZEL: On the internet, on the internet. JON STEWART: On the internet. CHARLIE WARZEL: And it's not that they were best. friends or anything like that. But when the first shooter committed. the act of violence and murder, and that other, the second shooter--. I'm just trying to not name names. here because I'm sticking with that. JON STEWART: Yeah. CHARLIE WARZEL: The second shooter was like, oh my god. I know her. By the way, it was a young girl.

It was a 15-year-old, I believe, girl. That is something that is also changing. The threat profile of this is--. experts who I've spoken to who study this stuff have said, it's democratizing because there. are mass shooter online fandom communities that exist. Some of them are around specific incidents, like Columbine. Some of them are just simply-- there's. the Christchurch shooter, who is lionized. There was a shooting that I wrote about,

and I think it's, like, two weeks now. But it feels like 20 years. JON STEWART: Oh, Jesus. CHARLIE WARZEL: At a church in Minneapolis. And the shooter had inscribed all these, like, other shooters on their gun. and all these online memes and phrases. And that was very clearly, very, very clearly, just fan. service essentially to this community saying, I'm going to do it. I'm going to be the next guy. And you're going to write my name on the next gun.

And that's what it's about. JON STEWART: Oh, Jesus. So it's the fucking--. it's the cinnamon challenge. It's the kind of thing that goes viral online, but to the extent of depravity and murder. Is that sort of similar? CHARLIE WARZEL: Yeah, I mean--. essentially, yes. Like, very truly, like these dynamics, the thing about the internet is the specifics. are always very different. And the specifics certainly matter.

But there are a lot of very similar dynamics that happen. When I talk to some of these analysts and researchers. who spend time in these--. at great psychological pain--. in these subcultures or around them, what they describe essentially is like a kind of love bombing. that these groups have. So someone will kind of wander in.

Maybe they're just interested in true crime. And they're pretty depressed. And they're pretty upset. And they see this subreddit or whatever--. not subreddit, but some community, online community, that is interested in school shootings. And they don't know exactly what they're getting. But the people there know how to groom them. They know how to bring them into the movement. They know how to treat them, give them something they're. not getting anywhere else.

And a lot of times, the people who end up going way. down the rabbit hole tend to feel extremely alienated. from their communities or from their families. or personally alienated by their own life choices. in whatever way. There's this way that these communities pull them. in and know how to do that and get better at doing that. and give them, essentially, a safe space. JON STEWART: Like a cult. That's how cults operate.

They love bomb you and bring people. in who are searching for something. and bring them into these smaller sub-communities. Offer them. But the question then always becomes like, what. is the radicalizing factor. And can they take somebody from neutral? Like, do you know--. I know you did like a blank slate user thing. on X. What happened then? Like, what was the dynamic of that for you?

CHARLIE WARZEL: So yeah, when I did. that, this was right around the 2024 election. And my personal experience and the experience. I was having doing research and reporting. was that this site was getting worse. I was starting to see, like, straight up neo-Nazi content. in my feeds without showing any right affinity for that myself. Right? JON STEWART: I'm always like, when you're For You page shows.

you that, you're like, what have I done to make. you think that that's for me. CHARLIE WARZEL: And that's the thing. That's the quote-unquote invisible algorithmic. hand that you're sort of saying, well, OK, is this Elon Musk? Is this whatever? So what I did is I created a new account, got. a different browser, whatever. So it didn't know who I was. Created a different account. And I can't remember exactly precisely the things that I. said I was interested in. But I think it was like technology and sports.

Like, very, very bland. JON STEWART: Sure. CHARLIE WARZEL: Like, this is-- like, I'm a person. I have some interests. JON STEWART: Yes, yes. CHARLIE WARZEL: I'm not going to tell you what. I didn't follow anyone. First thing I see when I open up the new. For You feed because I'm not following anyone. Eight Elon Musk ones, tweets. JON STEWART: Well, that's--. CHARLIE WARZEL: Just like--. JON STEWART: Just that's a welcome from the--. CHARLIE WARZEL: Of course, from the concierge. JON STEWART: It's like when you move into a neighborhood. and somebody brings over the big basket of fruit.

You've joined a community. And--. CHARLIE WARZEL: Yeah, I'm trying to see what else. I got it here. OK. Musk's post was the first thing a post from Donald Trump, a tweet from an account called MJ Truth Ultra, which offered. a Warning from a supposed FBI whistleblower that said vote, arm yourself, stock up 3 to 4 months supply. of food and water, and pray. After that, was a post from a MAGA influencer. JON STEWART: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait, whoa.

Nothing tripped this up? You're in a clean--. does it think because is there something suspicious, maybe, about not having any data history. that makes it think like, oh, this is an experiment. or a Russian bot? Like, was there something to the effect. that you were a clean slate that seemed suspicious? CHARLIE WARZEL: I mean, if that is the case, I don't know why you'd be serving.

a supposed Russian bot with, like, vote. and arm yourself and stock up. JON STEWART: Like, wouldn't a Russian bot enjoy--. CHARLIE WARZEL: I guess, maybe. JON STEWART: --destroying the fabric of the United States. CHARLIE WARZEL: The answer to that is that I can't be sure. But I also-- again, these things are not that savvy. Like, they're just trying--. this is a number--. all these platforms are numbers games, both with engagement. but also with users. JON STEWART: But it's clearly not agnostic. It's pointing you in a very particular direction.

CHARLIE WARZEL: Yeah, I mean, there's a thing. There was, like, a couple of posts from Libs of TikTok. There was a post from Benny Johnson and Jack Posobiec. JON STEWART: All right wing-- it's all right wing content. All of it? And you've not engaged with any of this yet? CHARLIE WARZEL: No, nothing. This is just the first scroll, just the first scroll. JON STEWART: That's your starter kit? CHARLIE WARZEL: Yeah, no, truly. And I let it marinate.

I checked back in a few times. And it essentially was like-- it devolved into like videos. from the manosphere influencers, like Andrew Tate. There was a lot of MMA stuff. It was a very, like, stereotypical version. of a user, which happens to be the core user now. for the platform. JON STEWART: Young male, technology, sports. So they just think like, if you're into technology.

and sports, you're one of us. You're in the bro sphere. And we're going to give you that stuff that just massages. that reptilian part of your not quite formed brain. and bring you in. CHARLIE WARZEL: Yeah. I mean, like, it's kind of mind blowing. because there's, like you said, well, OK, what was the catch there? Like, when I was performing this experiment, I wasn't expecting to just be able to like, copy.

and paste that into an article and be like, well, there you go. Like, I thought I was going to have to work a little for it. Right? Like, to see. JON STEWART: You're going to have to work. to join the manosphere. Right, right, right. Now, what would that have been, if I can ask, what do you think that would have. been on a different social-- like either Instagram. or Bluesky. Like, does Bluesky immediately bring. you to, like, Lilith Fair? Like what-- like, what's the difference?

CHARLIE WARZEL: Bluesky is not really. algorithmic in the same way. It's sort of an experiment to try to do the internet. in a different way. It has its own polarization issues. It has its own people have been bullied off for whatever. But it is a--. it's kind of a different experiment. It's trying to be not speedrun all the mistakes of Twitter. Threads is like--.

Threads is like you have like REI and Johnson and Johnson. tweeting like, what's up, babe? JON STEWART: --sounded like you were. going down to, like, RC Cola. You're like, well, there's Coke. And there's Pepsi. Hey, you know, RC Cola, it's fine. CHARLIE WARZEL: No, it's like it's like brands. mindlessly tweeting. Like, it's like Starbucks saying to Burger King. like, you up. Like, it's just-- it's bad. Very, very kind of dead inside. JON STEWART: --radicalizing the Burger King. CHARLIE WARZEL: But again, like, yes--.

TikTok is, again, the most sophisticated. version of all of this. Because you open that up, it's going to throw. you really popular posts. And sometimes those will be political. But a lot of times those will be. silly dances or what have you. The thing is, it gets real good at--. there is a situation where, in my reporting, there's all sorts of people have gotten in trouble.

with their spouses because, like, they. stay too long on, like, a video of a buxom woman. And then, TikTok is like, oh, he's a perv. Got it. OK, let's give him--. JON STEWART: Oh, my god. CHARLIE WARZEL: Let's give him boobs. And so you just end up with this for a while. JON STEWART: They've got to try and game their own feed. Like, Neil deGrasse Tyson, Neil deGrasse Tyson. Come on, Tyson. Let me get some astrophysics in there. We got to get the boobs out. CHARLIE WARZEL: And yeah, but, like, this is also something that-- you know, not to overgeneralize for a generation,

but younger people, early Millennials, Zoomers, whatever the other generation's called, I don't remember, they're very good at speaking to the algorithms in this way. Like, they know that they are being perceived in this way. And they're good at trying to clean up their timeline. or do whatever or try to get out of it something.

JON STEWART: Right. But it seems like there's a lot of ironic detachment from it. that the thing that struck me, if the communications are. to be believed, is the utter sort of lack of understanding. that you've ended a life. The impact of that seemed completely bereft. of consequence. Like, did not understand or did not care.

CHARLIE WARZEL: Yeah, I mean, and I think some of that. is beyond my scope when it comes. to like psychological issues of depression or whatever. But the thing that I really can understand, and I actually think that the thing to take away from most. of these violent acts, is this sort of irony poisoned nihilism. that is sort of the lingua franca of the internet,

that there is this like, LOL, nothing. matters kind of feeling. The only thing that really matters. is getting a rise out of different people, performing for your people. Like, this Minnesota Minneapolis shooter--. JON STEWART: This is the church or this is--. I mean, here's how horrible this is. I'm like, are you talking about the church or the guy who went. and killed Melissa Hortman? I mean, that's--. CHARLIE WARZEL: Yeah, no, I know. Sorry. This is the church that happened,

like, 2 and 1/2 weeks ago. This person had all kinds of awful stuff, like racist, white supremacist, anti-Semitic stuff scrawled. on his guns and his magazines. He also had weird stuff about, like, Exxon, like down with Exxon and down with BlackRock, like all these weird things. He had all these shooters--. JON STEWART: That extreme left and extreme right meeting--. it's that everybody talks about that,

that sort of extreme left, extreme right meeting. in sort of this weird place. CHARLIE WARZEL: But I think it wasn't that. I think the point is they knew when they did this that it was. going to make news, that it was going to be picked apart, that he was going to be treated like a puzzle. to solve by the media, by you and me. And that's why there is all this stuff. that is on there that is actually. ideologically incoherent.

JON STEWART: So in some ways, you're. saying that the idea behind all this. is nothing more than murder fame in your online group. And also, now let's all sit back and watch the world burn. CHARLIE WARZEL: Yeah. JON STEWART: Are we already behind on all of it? We're discussing it in terms of the algorithm on social media. Have they already found other deeper caverns.

where they're living that aren't even. touched by those algorithms? Are these people even on Instagram? Or are they living under--. is it subterranean from that even? CHARLIE WARZEL: So these communities, a lot of them. will exist in, like, chat spaces, which aren't. really algorithmically driven. JON STEWART: But what is chat space mean?

CHARLIE WARZEL: So like, there are WhatsApp groups. There are Telegram. Telegram is a messaging service that is infamously--. it doesn't moderate. Like, it took the European Union and the Department. of Justice a lot of work to get them to try to get rid of. ISIS content. Like, they do not moderate for anything. They're a free speech maximalist platform. And so that-- there are communities there on Telegram.

The terrorism, white supremacy, the school shooter fandoms, these whatever. There are Discord, as you mentioned, is. a platform that does moderate. But is sort of--. JON STEWART: How do you keep up with any of this shit? CHARLIE WARZEL: Locked in this whack-a-mole game. Like, you were mentioning with cults and leaders, there's no leader to a lot of these things. JON STEWART: It's an amoeba. It's the Borg.

It's this weird--. CHARLIE WARZEL: Headless, yeah. JON STEWART: It's a headless network. I wonder sometimes. This is where we're at now. AI is going to supercharge this. I'm assuming it's going to supercharge the algorithms. It's going to make this worse. Do you have a sense, though, of are other countries. facing this issue? Why is America seem to be--. I mean, other than our unbelievable access.

to the weapons of death, is that. the only thing that supercharges. this in this country? Because Europe, for all its problems, doesn't seem to have this one. CHARLIE WARZEL: It seems like it's probably. like the original sin when it comes. to taking online violence and chaos and nihilism. and making it physical. Like, it's just pretty easy.

JON STEWART: But it doesn't seem to happen in other places, certainly not as often and as constantly as it does here. CHARLIE WARZEL: Yeah, I mean, I think. the closest thing that you see globally. is terrorist organizations. Like, fringe, radical terrorist--. JON STEWART: Oh, my god. We have an ISIS of disaffected fucking high school. students and college students? Wow.

Wow. I mean, that's deep, man. CHARLIE WARZEL: But there's not--. but there's not an ideology really behind it. other than this. I mean, again, I think like-- when I go back to watching--. like, one of the things that was so frustrating, whether it. was this church shooter in Minneapolis. or the stuff with Kirk and the bullets, like, the first thing. that came out was that, like, ATF. unsourced or one-source Wall Street Journal. report that said there were transgender. ideology on the thing.

And it's like, when I see that as someone who's. spent a lot of time trying to wrap my head around this stuff, I go, oh, man. Whoever that person was who wrote down that report, I don't care if they're politically motivated or not. And maybe they are. Or maybe they're not. But I know for damn sure they have never spent. time in these communities. Like, you don't just say words like that. JON STEWART: We are jumping to conclusions that favor whatever. our narratives are when that's the exact point of these people.

is to be enigmas, to be puzzles, to have people not understand. Or maybe some of them go that way, and some of them. are much clearer about their political aims. But it's the certainty that you see in legacy media. creates more misinformation. And uncertainty is the point. CHARLIE WARZEL: And the chaos. So like, if you go into--. JON STEWART: The chaos. CHARLIE WARZEL: If you go into these communities, like, so one that's like--. we hear a lot about 4chan.

If you go into one of the political message board, political message boards on 4chan, part of what you're seeing is just a lot of chaos. Right? There's just a lot of people insulting each other. But they don't really mean it. Or they do mean-- like, it's just like-- it's kind of nuts. And there is a way in which like, these communities have this feeling. And by committing this act, by murdering a bunch of people,

they see it as a troll. Like, they are trolling everyone. because just you watch. Donald Trump's going to get on Fox News and say something. Or MSNBC is going to do this. Or these lawmakers are all going to point the finger. JON STEWART: Oh, god, they're playing. They're playing the response. CHARLIE WARZEL: I mean, truly, that's like--. I feel sometimes like I'm, again, overgeneralizing. when I'm looking at this. Because every--.

JON STEWART: I think it's hard to have. any conversation without overgeneralizing. to some extent. CHARLIE WARZEL: But every person's. got their own motivations, whatnot. And then, you read the charging document. of Charlie Kirk's shooter. And it says, man, if I see this on Fox News, I'm going to have a stroke. That's the quote. And I'm like, well, there it is. Like, that's it. JON STEWART: That's one-- one of the things. is they want to see the reaction. from the so-called normal world or whatever. CHARLIE WARZEL: And wants to see the normal people. not be able to understand it.

They want the reporters, the journalists, the lawmakers, the investigators to try to solve their puzzle. and fail because they--. and that's, when you think about it, that's so human. They want to try to be understood. But they also want to be seen as unendingly complex. JON STEWART: I've got no sympathy for. the misunderstood miscreant. That's like, I just want to be seen. And you're like, man, fucking take a painting class.

Like, get good at something. CHARLIE WARZEL: I'm certainly not defending it. JON STEWART: No, no, no. CHARLIE WARZEL: But that's what it is. JON STEWART: I just meant, yeah, yeah, I get what you're saying. Do you think-- look, anything that can be constructed. can be deconstructed. Are there tools that can give us. a better sense of when these things are. going to break into real life? And are we going to have to understand. how to utilize those?

Is that the way out of this? I mean, I don't know how--. I don't want to be like the kids. in the underground subreddits. But, let's face facts. The overwhelming majority of it is. pretty Harmless? CHARLIE WARZEL: Right. JON STEWART: But is there some way. to crystallize where the real peril is. and how to find our way out of it? CHARLIE WARZEL: There's such a number of ways. you could go with all of this. Like, one of the things that--.

when I talk to a lot of these researchers, they all sort of, like, put their head in their hands. because they're like, what I'm going to say to you sounds so. naive and so pie in the sky. And, like, you're going to dismiss me immediately. But they're like, we need more third spaces. and community spaces. And we need the infrastructure that's not digital. We need the physical infrastructure. JON STEWART: Oh, god. The answer is midnight basketball? CHARLIE WARZEL: Yes, the answer is a community of people who.

care about and keep people who are showing. these types of tendencies from driving. themselves-- or running into the arms of these other people. Right? JON STEWART: For making it actionable. Right. CHARLIE WARZEL: The one thing that this one researcher. at the University of Boulder, Alex Newhouse, told me, is that you can see from these people. a receding from the physical world when they start.

to really go down these paths. Like, they're not going to school. Like, they stop going to these things. And they start spending all of their time. JON STEWART: But this kid didn't seem like that at all. CHARLIE WARZEL: No. JON STEWART: He's having dinner with his parents. He's going to work. He's going to school. He's doing the whole thing. Like--. CHARLIE WARZEL: And that's why we don't know whether--. we still don't really even know he's not being cooperative. He may he may fit into this other box.

But it's very clear there are a few little things that--. signs and things that he left-- that he thought. would either be nihilistically funny or whatnot. But there is like a physical thing. JON STEWART: Or was like, this person is a hateful person. And I've decided to be the judge, jury, and executioner. Like, it could simply be that right. CHARLIE WARZEL: Truly. And I think I wrote this in the last piece. But the thing that I think unnerves people the most.

is this idea that there might not. be an ideology to pin it to. Like, it's not even-- like, I think a lot of people. were like, oh, I hope it's not my side. You know, who did this? I hope that person's not on my side. because I don't want to have to answer for that or whatnot. or that's going to make things worse for me somehow. But I think even more unnerving to people is this. What made them do this?

Where was the-- what fail safes didn't work. JON STEWART: Sure. No, it takes you back. I think, in some respects, you say, OK, we've seen assassinations before in our history. We've seen times of volatility and insecurity. and generally revolved around either Vietnam. War or racial issues or different things. This feels like Clockwork Orange.

This is a whole other sort of subculture that, like you say, it has its own language. It has its own mores. And it's. the why the Manson case created such a hysteria. back when that first surfaced. CHARLIE WARZEL: Yeah. I mean, I think it's really interesting. People have brought this up. And again, this is a little outside. of my zone of expertise.

But I think it's interesting. We don't really have like a serial killer. problem in the same way that historically we had. But we do have this mass shooting problem. And it's interesting. JON STEWART: Yes. CHARLIE WARZEL: It's interesting. Is this a different expression of a type. of violence, of a type of thing, instead of--. JON STEWART: Right. CHARLIE WARZEL: Like, are we seeing the same things. but it's being sort of transformed. by our current culture, our current media, our current whatever. JON STEWART: A nihilism that's always.

been with us, supercharged by technological advances. CHARLIE WARZEL: And again, that's. a little beyond my scope. But I think it's certainly fascinating. I think it's good to keep in perspective with this. because you can immediately go into the doomer territory. with all this. It's very easy to do. JON STEWART: Yeah, yeah. But I do think that this isn't the common experience. of being online. No, I know. It's one of those things where you're like, but think of all.

the people who aren't shot. Like, it's one of those like, yeah, OK. All right. CHARLIE WARZEL: No, totally. But I think, like--. I think when you're trying to address this, I think one of the biggest issues--. there's obviously like the technological issues. I think the government needs to really start taking. this even more seriously. JON STEWART: They apparently are going to on the left. Apparently, they're not going to do it. Apparently, George Soros is going to jail for this one.

CHARLIE WARZEL: Yeah, no, it's not. going to make anything better. JON STEWART: Yeah. CHARLIE WARZEL: But I think the Biden administration sort. of, right at the end, designated this terrorist sort. of online group, Terrorgram, as a domestic threat, which. puts it in a different category and allows the actual law.

enforcement agencies to take this more seriously. to monitor this stuff. Again, that gets into conversations. about surveillance. And what are we doing surveilling our Kids. and our kids going to get caught up in this thing. because they're ironically posting about whatever. It's not a coincidence that these communities are all. cloaked in 85 layers of irony because it also. makes it a little harder to track. and understand what is actually going. on till it might be too late. But I also I think-- one of the biggest things here is that--.

that I see in the aftermath of the Kirk's assassination, is that people need to start taking the internet. much more seriously. Like, I've had journalists that I have seen who have sort. of glibly and proudly been like, well, I don't know about those spaces or those types of things. JON STEWART: No, it's real. CHARLIE WARZEL: What I would say is like, if you are trying.

to cover politics in 2025, you need to know. what a Discord room is. You need to know how these things operate. You need to understand--. I'm not saying you have to drive yourself mad. or anything like that. But you have to understand these things. because what we are doing right now is we are very clearly, as like a broad media and political system, cultural system, we are playing into the hands of these people.

who are doing this. We are giving them what they want. JON STEWART: We are performing. We are performing for the internet. And you see this after Charlie Kirk's assassination. You're watching internet dissidents. perform with either shitposting or thing. You're seeing cable news certainly perform all of its--. our prayers and everything. They're going through all the stages of how a story is,

in some ways, put through the refinery. of our modern media outlet. There's very little insight and a lot of performance. And maybe that's the exact wrong thing. to be steering into. CHARLIE WARZEL: I have no idea if this would have as much. of an effect as I think it would, but if the media stopped naming these shooters, I think that that is like such a small thing that.

actually goes a bit of a way. Because again, the thing that I think. was so chilling about the Minneapolis church shooting. is that they wrote all of these names of other mass shooters. on the gun. JON STEWART: That was very clearly a I want whatever. media storm those people had. I want that. CHARLIE WARZEL: Precisely. I want to be the next name on the gun.

JON STEWART: Hey, listen, man, I know you got a lot going on. And I appreciate you spending the time with us. I got to tell you, I made my bones. in this business, spending hours and hours. watching cable news. It was a corrosive experience. I can't imagine because I think you're. doing the same but in an even more difficult. and acidic environment. You're with the atmosphere of Venus.

We were still on Earth. But you're in a whole other area. So much appreciated. Charlie Warzel, staff writer at The Atlantic, author of its. newsletter, "Galaxy Brain.". Thanks very much for talking to us, Charlie. CHARLIE WARZEL: Yeah, thanks for having me. [THEME MUSIC]. JON STEWART: Wow. So it is--. I have to say, it's sort of what I thought it was, this sort of strange, unregulated Wild West culture.

where the worst version of yourself, is not just, in any way visible, but encouraged, cultivated, fertilized. It is exactly the kind of environment. that we need to aerate if we are to move forward. in non-nihilist fashion. Yes, that is for sure.

But I do want to thank Charlie for taking the time. And I also, as always, want to thank all those that. work on this podcast who do such a great job. week in and week out. The-- not unsung heroes. Sung. They are the song. We should sing their praises more often. Our lead producer, Lauren Walker, producer Brittany. Mehmedovic, producer Gillian Spear, video editor. and engineer Rob Vitolo, audio editor. and engineer Nicole Boyce. And our executive producers, Chris McShane and Katie Gray.

We will see you next week under hopefully. more pleasant circumstances. Bye bye. [THEME MUSIC]. The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart. is a Comedy Central podcast that's produced by Paramount. Audio and Busboy productions.