Emergency Powers: Trump’s Favorite Loophole | The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart

JON STEWART: If Trump is this sort of showman. and using his authoritarian dressage. to-- to make his point, his foil now in Newsom. is a co-actor. He's a co-star. He's another guy that as soon as the camera turns on, he goes, you want a piece of me, tough guy? Come to LA and I'll show you a taco, you TACO. Trump Always Chickens Out. [theme music]. JON STEWART: Ladies and gentlemen, once again, welcome toThe Weekly Showpodcast.

My name is Jon Stewart. I'll be your host and guide through this week's episode. It is Wednesday, June 11. I'm going to get through today's program, not necessarily with brevity, but I--. if I sound like I've got things to do and places to go, I do. I've got to get--. I've got to finish this podcast, get things ready, do some general house errands, those types of things, and make sure that I am prepared for, as many of you.

I know are celebrating, it's--. it's Donald Trump's birthday weekend. I always celebrate that with some kind of military parade. It so happens this year, he's also going. to be throwing himself one. So obviously it's a confluence. But-- but whenever I can, on his birthday, I try and line up our nation's defense armaments. and capabilities and let them breeze by me. just to get a sense of how comfortable.

I am with this man being in charge of all that ammunition. It's, uh-- and by the way, for those of you who are thinking. of in any way holding up a sign that may be viewed negatively. in the Trump military parade, please know that doing so. is against America, the First Amendment being. not in play on parade weekend. I think everybody understands that. And you will be considered an enemy of this great nation.

And you will be met with overwhelming force. And I don't know if you know this, they already have the tanks there. So unless you want, uh, you know-- uh, we must resist, unless you want a 50-cal snapper going right through. that bad boy, you'll mind your Ps and Qs. on Trump birthday weekend. Just-- just so lovely that the--. that both the army and Donald Trump. turned 250 years old this weekend.

So I'll see you there. It's going to be so exciting. Put whatever you want on your shoulders to watch the parade, but you must smile. And it is now illegal for you to have. anything but a twinkle in your eye when you watch it go by. Maybe you can shed a tear, but that is. all that will be permissible. You will do as I say. But we are delighted today to have a couple of folks that.

can give us some great context and perspective. about what the fuck it is that we are living through. [theme music]. JON STEWART: Folks, delighted today, with nothing going on. in the news, to discuss things with people. with a grand perspective on all things not happening. We've got Jill Lepore, Professor of History and Law. at Harvard, Kevin Kruse, Professor of History. at Princeton University. As of this taping, which is-- it is Wednesday,

both of those institutions still exist. But it airs Thursday. So-- so we don't know. Kevin, for those of you at home who are listening in your cars, has just given the sign of Pope Leo. Listen, you guys are just going to go with the flow. We're going to do-- it's going to be very improvisational. We're going to work our way through a tremendous amount. of issues. But the first issue that I want to discuss. is, as I'm sure you're both aware, there were protests on campuses, probably Harvard, a little more extensively than-- than Princeton.

The National Guard and the Marines. were not sent in, from what I can remember. In Los Angeles, the National Guard and the Marines. are being sent in. How unusual is this? Is this something throughout history. that we have found quelling, as Trump called it, insurrections and rebellions? What kind of unusual waters are we swimming in right now? Let's start with Jill. JILL LEPORE: Well, it is extremely unusual.

I think it's almost difficult to use any kind of yardstick. against the past to understand this moment. Not to sort of put Kevin and I out of business. here in the sense that, like, I'm just not so sure. You know, someone has asked me, what about Kent State? OK? May 1970 Nixon announces on television the US is-- is going. to be bombing Cambodia just after kind. of the anti-war movement had quieted down. It's the end of the semester. I think he was thinking he could sort of get away with it.

And protests are up on campuses across the country. And in Ohio, I think the ROTC building. was burned down one night. And the mayor of Kent calls in--. asked the governor to bring in the National Guard. This isn't Nixon who's sending in the National Guard. JON STEWART: Right. JILL LEPORE: And then, of course, fatefully, the guardsmen fire on the students and kill four. JON STEWART: Four people. JILL LEPORE: You know, I think it was terrible moment. I think we tend to forget how supportive.

Americans were of the decision to bring in the guardsmen. I think a poll done right after that shooting, 58% of Americans. blamed the students for the violence. So I think we would do well to consider moments like Kent. State and the shooting on Jackson. State, the historically Black College in Mississippi, where a shooting followed. And then recall that even after that in New York, where there.

was a funeral for one of the students killed at Kent State, there was the Hard Hat Riot, where construction workers who. were building the World Trade Center. attacked the students who were--. who had come out to protest the war during the funeral. for the Kent State victims. So, you know, there has been a lot of violence. around protests that have involved. the use of the military in American history. But again, like, I just--.

I feel like that's such a lousy analogy. Like, what piece of that really helps us to understand what's. going on in LA and what I think is. likely to be going on in cities across the country. over the weekend? JON STEWART: Well, maybe what, you know, as I hear you discuss it, maybe the one theme. that carries through it is that authoritarianism, for whatever. myth we tell ourselves as Americans, is a relatively popular response when it's considered. as being a lever against what-- what some would say.

is disorder. Others would say peaceful riots. Kevin, do you agree with that? Is this-- you know, so much of this is about, well, is he allowed to invoke these? there's the Posse Comitatus Act that keeps him from sending. in the guard, but then he can invoke the Insurrection. Act, which he hasn't done. Do you look at it through that prism. or more what Jill was talking about? KEVIN KRUSE: More what Jill was talking about. And I think the examples Jill gave are--. are two really good ones.

And I'm really glad to see that she paired a Kent. State with the Hard Hat Riot. Because I think we have to really think. about both sides of this coin. Because it's not about simply putting down disorder. It's not about simply arresting people who are committing law--. lawlessness. Because if it was the case, then. you would have seen troops deployed to New York City. JON STEWART: Or on January 6. KEVIN KRUSE: Or on January 6. Those Hard Hat construction workers in 1970. didn't just beat up the protesters. They went in to Pace College into the library where students. were studying and started beating.

the crap out of them, right? And the response wasn't, "we need to hold these people. responsible. We need to arrest them. We need to send in the law.". Nixon welcomed the head of a union down to the White House, where he took a hard hat as a quote, "ceremonial sign" of what Americanism was all. about, right? So one protest gets the National Guard. and gets people killed. A different kind of protest, a much more violent one. that attacked innocent people, is instead. treated as a celebration. Right?

So it gives proof to the fiction here. It makes the fiction clear that this isn't about bringing. about law and order, it's about bringing. about a certain political end. And that's what we're seeing in LA. That's what's really remarkable about what's going on. in Los Angeles is in the past few occasions. when we've seen military forces like this deployed, it's been as a very last resort at a total breakdown of order. It's been Eisenhower very reluctantly. sending in 101st Airborne to Little Rock in 1957. It's been George H.W. Bush sending troops after the Los.

Angeles uprisings in 1992. JON STEWART: And those were-- were welcome. Those were-- those were requested. KEVIN KRUSE: Well, oh, but not by everybody. But-- but I mean, like-- JON STEWART: Right, right. KEVIN KRUSE: A lot of people thought--. JON STEWART: Well, not in Little Rock, right. KEVIN KRUSE: Yeah. But things have gotten out of control, and this is a good thing. Whereas what we're seeing here is things. have been fine in Los Angeles. I mean, a couple of Waymo cars might disagree, but things have been fine in Los Angeles largely. And it's been something that local law. enforcement even has said they don't need the outside help. And yet they've sent these troops. there to provoke a reaction, to instigate a riot, right?

That's the ultimate goal, is Trump wants. to be the h order president. But to do that, he's got to have some excuse to lash out. JON STEWART: Well, it almost seems like in America now, in Trump's America anyway, law and order. is the government kicking the shit out of the right people. It's not about a libertarian vision. of the federal government staying out of things. It's not about states' rights. It's not about anything other than Trump decides who. is the enemy and then can unleash all versions of hell.

and kick the shit out of them. And I want to ask you, is he exposing a loophole. in the American experiment and the Constitution. in that, this isn't happenstance? He's not improvising. He has teams of lawyers and historians. who comb through our nation's archives and they say, hey, here's something. The Alien Enemies Act of 18--.

pow, you could use that. Here's something they used in 1972 that. allows the president full--. so they're picking and choosing emergency acts that didn't have. sunset clauses that Congress hasn't unlegislated, and they're using them, and there's really no oversight. Has he found some sort of crack in the system. that is allowing all this without any kind.

of repercussion? KEVIN KRUSE: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and this is the thing, is. that he's predicating all of this on emergency declarations, right? JON STEWART: Right. KEVIN KRUSE: And he wants to create the emergency. where none exist. And I think we just need to step back. And this is where I think the historical comparisons. are useful. Because if we think about how other presidents, these laws were still on the books. They could have used them too. They could have invoked emergencies all the time. Did not do that, right?

George W. Bush, not a huge fan of his presidency--. I'm sorry, Jon-- but over eight years--. JON STEWART: [laughs]. KEVIN KRUSE: --over eight years, he issued 14 emergency declarations. And some stuff happened on George W. Bush's watch, right? 9/11. JON STEWART: I believe I remember that, yeah. KEVIN KRUSE: I think you reported it. Katrina. JON STEWART: Yeah. KEVIN KRUSE: The financial meltdown, right? There were a lot of reasons in which. you could plausibly say there are emergencies here, right? JON STEWART: Right. KEVIN KRUSE: He only did 14 in eight years. In less than six months, Donald Trump has done eight.

And a lot of them are clearly not emergencies. JON STEWART: Manufactured. KEVIN KRUSE: An energy emergency? An energy emergency? JON STEWART: Southern border emergency, energy emergency. KEVIN KRUSE: Southern border emergency. The economic emergency-- the economy was doing fine. Trade deficits? They're not anything new. We've had them for decades. So these are, by any reasonable definition. of what an emergency is, they don't fit the bill. JON STEWART: But even though, Kevin, but think about even. with your, uh, example of Bush, so he got the authorization. of force declaration, right? He got that through Congress.

That was a congressional act. But then we have since then used. that authorization to bomb numerous countries. with no declarations of war. What-- what used to be the executive order. was a way to kind of short circuit the system. That apparently is not good enough. Now it's the declaration of an emergency. Jill, are there-- are there metrics. for which one would decide? JILL LEPORE: Yeah, there are. And I will say, I disagree with Kevin a little bit. on this point.

And I do think you're right, Jon, that there's that sort. of escalation is from the executive order. to the declaration of emergency. And that's an important distinction. And we can measure that. You know, it was FDR, of course, in 1933 who coined the expression "100 days". to talk about the beginning of his administration, which was indeed an emergency. And he declared an emergency, the bank emergency, and closed the banks for a number of days. And then he proceeded to issue 99 executive orders. in his first 100 days.

But during those 100 days, congress passed nearly 80 laws. JON STEWART: Right. JILL LEPORE: So congress was still functioning. And the bank emergency was one thing. and, you know, that was a-- that was a temporary thing. That Trump declared eight national emergencies. in his first 100 days and 143 executive orders. breaks all those records. But in those 100 days, how many laws did congress pass? Five. And one of them did basically nothing. It just made the government not explode, like self destruct.

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There's so-- this is almost too easy. Again, 40% off unlimited access when you. subscribe to groundnews.com/stewart. or the QR code on the screen. Go to groundnews.com/stewart and do it. And start understanding the matrix. Do you understand? See the zeros and ones. Do it. [theme music]. JILL LEPORE: So I think, you know, we--. we can say, like, we are living in an era.

of an emergency presidency and broadly, in an era of emergency politics. But I do think it's important to note that actually, it's. Democrats who first turned to the emergency. powers of the presidency. It was-- you know, the new powers really. don't even exist until the late 1970s, some-- some new set of powers. JON STEWART: Oh, really? This is-- JILL LEPORE: Yeah. JON STEWART: This is not a New Deal leftover? JILL LEPORE: No. JON STEWART: This is not--. JILL LEPORE: No, no, no. JON STEWART: --a Civil War leftover? JILL LEPORE: No. So, for instance--. JON STEWART: Oh. JILL LEPORE: --Carter declared one. national emergency in his four years, Reagan six.

in eight years. But Clinton declared 17 national emergencies. in his two terms. And that was not during--. that was not-- Bush's presidency with 9/11, right? So Obama, 12, Biden declared nine in four years. Democrats have been very eager to use declarations. of emergency, and not for different reasons, in a way, than Trump, which is to say the federal government is. dysfunctional, right? Congress is feckless and impotent. JON STEWART: Mm-hmm. JILL LEPORE: And the Supreme Court.

has a disproportionate amount of power. But the presidency has become an entirely deformed office. I do think we should think about it. as an emergency presidency. But I-- I guess I just want to point out. that I think we've been living under an emergency presidency--. JON STEWART: Right. JILL LEPORE: --for about 20 years now. And I think that's worth considering. Which is not to suggest that there's. anything harmless or ordinary about what's. going on right now--. it is extraordinary. And it is, I think, frankly, terrifying.

But I do think we-- we could appreciate its consequences. better if we have that sense of--. of chronological perspective. JON STEWART: Yeah. That was kind of the point, is that it feels like we have been. sleepwalking into this idea of an unaccountable executive. through the use of these, first the executive orders and now. emergency declarations. But, Kevin, you were going to say something. KEVIN KRUSE: Yeah. Just to follow up on Jill's point about the long history. Absolutely right here. And I think the point about Congress being involved.

is right. It was actually even more than Jill said. It wasn't five minor bills. It was 15 bills in the first 100 days, pretty major ones-- reorganizing industry. and banking and agriculture and setting down. things like the TVA and the Civilian Conservation Corp. and on and on and on. Massive stuff. But the key point there is, he declared these emergency. powers, then immediately went to Congress, summoned Congress back into session--. JON STEWART: Mm-hmm. KEVIN KRUSE: --to pass bills. And Congress did that. So it wasn't that the emergency is declared by the president,

and that solves everything. The emergency declaration is meant. to be a stopgap measure until Congress. can get its act together. And Congress has, and this is--. Jill's absolutely right, over the last 20, 40 years has really abdicated its role in government. And that's what's remarkable about this moment is Trump. has both houses of Congress. He hasn't by slim margins, but his allies are in control. He could get legislation to them and through them, probably, if he simply put his shoulder to it. But he doesn't want to.

He simply wants to sit back and issue emergencies. And most baffling, Congress has agreed to neuter itself, right, and step back and said, whatever the president wants. is fine with us. JON STEWART: But see, that actually makes sense. It follows a certain logic. There-- no one has more control over the Republican. Party than Donald Trump. And even these-- I keep hearing the news. talk about the slimmest of margins in Congress. They won't be able to get anything passed. This won't ever happen. They haven't had any defections. And as far as I can tell, the Republican Congress.

is overwhelmingly happy to abdicate to the president. because he's not doing anything they disagree with. Or if they do disagree with it, they're. too afraid to speak out. Right now, honestly, the largest schism. in the Republican Party is how big the salt. tax deduction is going to be. That's-- that's their civil war right now. "We set a $40,000 deduction.". They are afraid to speak against this president. because he is the single most vindictive politician,

I think, this country has ever seen. And so they understand what can happen within that. They're neutered. And so they're more than happy to let him run roughshod. But I guarantee you, if there was a Democratic president. in the White House right now doing. the same thing and this exact Congress, there would be holy hell to pay. KEVIN KRUSE: Yeah. JILL LEPORE: Yeah, but I do think. it's a little bit like, oh, like, why we've never gotten rid of the electoral college, right? You know, you need both parties to agree to that. And it's going to, in the short term, always.

benefit one party to do it. And so it never gets done. Or why we still have the filibuster, right? Like, these people are just structurally. unable to make decisions that have long-term public benefits. They're only interested in short-term partisan benefits. JON STEWART: You're talking about the big beautiful bill? JILL LEPORE: Well--. JON STEWART: Jill, are you talking. about the big beautiful bill? JILL LEPORE: No, no. I'm talking about, we could have dismantled. a lot of these standing emergency declarations. over the years, except that everyone's. like, well, we're in power now, so half of us. don't want to do that. We can't get that done, right?

JON STEWART: Right. JILL LEPORE: The fecklessness is really structural. and it keeps snowballing. JON STEWART: Now, can I ask you guys, these emergencies, as consequential as they are to be declared, what are the metrics? Is it an eyeball test? Is this an art and not a science? Is it solely at the discretion of the president? What is your knowledge of how these declarations are put. together and what the metrics are to measure whether they.

rise to that occasion? Kevin, let's start with you. KEVIN KRUSE: I'm not an expert on this topic, but I'll happily talk about it because I'm on a podcast. JON STEWART: Yeah. KEVIN KRUSE: Um. JON STEWART: By the way, I'm not an expert on anything. That's why you guys are here. KEVIN KRUSE: Fantastic. Great-- great company. JON STEWART: [laughs]. KEVIN KRUSE: But my reading of them. is it really does largely depend. on-- it's whatever the president. decides is an emergency. It's one of the many ways in which Trump has exposed. that for much of this country's history, we kind of operated on the honor system. JON STEWART: Oh, dear god.

KEVIN KRUSE: We kind of assumed good people would be there. Or the genius of Madison was, maybe they're not all. going to be good people, but everyone will be. power hungry for their own--. for their own position and will fight with each other. and check each other's powers that way. And so Congress has neutered itself here. and made themselves useless. But yeah, it really is up to--. it's in the eye of the president. And-- and unfortunately, we have. someone who's hallucinating. JON STEWART: Jill, is there any recourse to this? JILL LEPORE: You know, I think it's worse than that. JON STEWART: Ooh. JILL LEPORE: Because I think we're basically-- like, we're in theMountainhead dilemma at this point, right?

JON STEWART: [laughs]. JILL LEPORE: The problem with emergency--. JON STEWART: Very hip reference, Jill Lepore. throwing out some streaming-- JILL LEPORE: Look. JON STEWART: --references. JILL LEPORE: I watch a lot of TV. JON STEWART: [laughs]. JILL LEPORE: I think that, like, the problem--. one of the problems is the sirens are. blaring all the time, right? JON STEWART: Right. JILL LEPORE: I think especially for people who are extremely. online, which is a lot of people, it's very. difficult to know from your own vantage, is there an emergency. or not? So earlier Kevin said, there's-- everything's fine.

in LA. There's no problem in LA. Is that true? I'm not sure I know that that's true. Like, I've seen a lot of footage that's very concerning. If I were the convenience store owner or those guys. went in and looted and dragged out all the stuff, it's not OK in LA, right? Is it-- was it necessary to send. in the Marines and a Federated National Guard? I don't think so, because my news sources are really. downplaying the violence in the way that, I would say, the news sources I rely on really. downplayed the violence in the summer of 2020 and also said,

you know, although public health guidelines. say you shouldn't be in large gatherings. and you should always be masked, we'll make an exception for the George Floyd protests. because those are so important. And there's no violence. No, there's no violence. JON STEWART: Right. So it depends on--. JILL LEPORE: And it turns out that was wrong, so. JON STEWART: --right, what universe you're in. JILL LEPORE: If you can't tell if there's an emergency, partly. because everything's always an emergency, and also because your news sources are going. to take a partisan position on whether there. is one or is not one--.

you know, do you believe Gavin Newsom. or do you believe Donald Trump? Do you believe Fox News or do you believe theNew York Times? That--. KEVIN KRUSE: Are those my only four choices? JON STEWART: Is-- is anybody litigating a sense of reality? And-- and can we live in a world. where there are bad things happen. at times that don't require, uh, full-on federal responses? Because what strikes me is, I think it's very clear that this.

new 3,000-person-a-day arrest quota has inflamed communities. I think it seems very targeted. It seems to be going into communities that are mainly. blue strongholds, mainly immigrant communities, where. a lot of these folks are very tied, a lot of these workers. are very tied into the community, and it would cause great upset. So that seems purposefully designed to enrage and inflame.

different communities. So that seems kind of obvious. And then it allows them to come in and make. that heavy-handed response and turn this into the catastrophe. that he had complained that it was. It's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy, is it not? KEVIN KRUSE: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that's-- they've kind. of telegraphed this. And they-- they pitched this originally to their voters. as, we're just going to go after criminals. We're just going to go after the worst people out there.

And then we see Stephen Miller behind the scenes saying, actually, what I want you to do is go to Home Depot. and get a bunch of day laborers. I want you to go to 7-Eleven and pick up anyone you see. there that looks suspicious. They're popping into elementary schools. They're doing all sorts of things where--. JON STEWART: Now, to be fair to them, they did say there's 20 million illegals living in America, and I want them all gone. Like, he did say he was going to do the--. I mean, I remember them at Madison Square Garden very. clearly going, the alien--. Illegal Enemies Act--.

KEVIN KRUSE: Mass deportation, yeah. JON STEWART: I think it's been hard for people. to realize how disruptive it might be, what the response might be. But to Jill's point, boy, is this going to play. into the hands of-- people forget that the '60s gave way. to Nixon winning 49 states against McGovern, or something. along those lines. KEVIN KRUSE: Yeah. JON STEWART: This is--. I think the left can tell itself, this is a political loser. He's really going to run into trouble here. I'm not so sure that's the case. Jill, do you think that?

JILL LEPORE: No, I mean, for-- you know, I was thinking, uh--. well, two things. One, I was thinking about that slide. that Trump showed at the 2024 rally in Butler right. before he was shot. Do you remember, that's how he didn't get shot in the head? JON STEWART: Oh, yeah. JILL LEPORE: He got shot in the ear because he turned his head. JON STEWART: That's right. JILL LEPORE: Because he had that-- on the Jumbotron, there was a slide that was showing immigration. rates and the swell--. the sort of swelling immigration. in-- in the Biden-- during the Biden administration. That is-- that is what he ran on and what he ran against.

This was also kind of haunting me this morning. I was thinking about that the 2020 Democratic presidential. nomination field, there were 10 candidates, really. kind of across the spectrum. Like, remember, it was Sanders and Buttigieg. and Elizabeth Warren. And they had the, like, MSNBC debates. And they were asked, the-- remember they. did all those shows of hands? JON STEWART: Yeah, oh, the raise your hands. JILL LEPORE: Yeah. And they asked them, like--. JON STEWART: Yeah, yeah, always. JILL LEPORE: --raise your hand if you. would provide free medical coverage, health insurance--. JON STEWART: Right, right. JILL LEPORE: --to undocumented immigrants--. JON STEWART: Right.

JILL LEPORE: --and all 10 candidates raised their hands? JON STEWART: [buzzer noise] Yeah. JILL LEPORE: Like, that's the distance between the two--. I mean, those are a little apples and oranges, because one of those examples is from 2020. and one is from 2024. JON STEWART: Right. JILL LEPORE: You know. JON STEWART: They wouldn't-- they wouldn't raise. their hands now. JILL LEPORE: And Biden didn't-- they wouldn't raise. their hands now. But like, the reading of the room. on the part of the Democratic Party, which. is your obligation, as a candidate for office. and as an elected official representing. the people nationally is to read-- is to read the room. Like, what's really troubling about that is that, you know,

most Americans, the overwhelming majority. of Americans, have views that are really in between those two. positions, right? Like, I don't want to deport 20 million people. That's unbelievably cruel. Like, these people are families. They're working. They've made their lives here. They believe in America values, whatever. Like, this is the country-- that's not the country. I want to belong to. But also, like, Americans who are native born are suffering. And there's joblessness. And we have homelessness. We have a lot of problems. Like, but where is--. where are the national political figures or even. the national news organizations that are really speaking.

to that, you know, what the more in common organization. calls the exhausted majority? And I think we just really even in-- even in this moment, right, which is a terrible crisis, people are going to be dying in LA. Like, there's going to be deaths before we. get through the next week. I can't imagine there aren't going. to be people who are killed on the streets of the United. States over this. JON STEWART: Oh, god. Let's hope not. JILL LEPORE: I mean, we would hope and pray not, but, like--. JON STEWART: Right. JILL LEPORE: --over, you know, Trump's attempt to, like, distract the press from his feud with Musk or--.

JON STEWART: Right. JILL LEPORE: --Trump's need to, like, swagger or Trump's excitement about having protests--. JON STEWART: Right, his law and order. JILL LEPORE: --at his military parade--. JON STEWART: Right. JILL LEPORE: --like, all the creepy, horrible, vanity, like, psychopathological problems of Trumpism. are going to lead to people dying. And meanwhile, where do we hear voices saying, OK, it actually looks kine of-- some things look. kind of bad in LA right now? That is tough. JON STEWART: Right. Well, the problem is it's-- so if Trump is this sort. of showman and using his authoritarian dressage.

to-- to make his point, his foil. now in Newsom is a co-actor. He's a co-star. He's another guy that, as soon as the camera turns on, he goes, you want a piece of me, tough guy? Come to LA and I'll show you a TACO, you TACO. Trump always chickens out. Hey! Like, now we've got two sort of characters going at it. And what we don't ever seem to have--. and Kevin, I'll ask you if you've seen it, because maybe. I've missed it-- is what Jill's talking about,

that macro view of, I've yet to hear anybody make. the case as to what this country can absorb. in terms of immigration? What does this community provide to the United States? I hear a lot of very inflammatory, they're coming in here and we're giving them welfare. and Medicaid and all that. And yet the reality of it is very different than all that. KEVIN KRUSE: Yeah. JON STEWART: Why hasn't anybody made. the intellectual and political case, not the moral case,

not the I am my brother's keeper. Look at the base of the Statue of Liberty. Because I think that falls on deaf ears at this point. Why doesn't anyone make the competent economic case--. KEVIN KRUSE: Yeah. JON STEWART: --for what this is in our country, Kevin? KEVIN KRUSE: Well, I can't think of a name to this, but I have certainly seen this argument floating around, that-- um, that it's not just a matter of--. of morality or--. JON STEWART: Right. KEVIN KRUSE: --being the good Samaritan. and looking out for those in need.

JON STEWART: But certainly not well. articulated on-- on the news programs I've been watching. KEVIN KRUSE: No, not on the news programs. But-- but we have seen some not major politicians, some politicians, some academics, some commenters who. have noted, hey, look, this attack on foreign students. at universities, they're framing this. as, we're letting foreigners in and not. letting good Americans get into Harvard. like Barron Trump or whoever. But it ignores the fact that those foreign students. pay a lot of money into those schools. And students who are here pay lower tuition as a result. And that the universities as a whole who are bringing.

these foreign students in are, A, doing great things. for American PR across the globe. and educating global elites and instilling. them with American values and sending them back out there. It's been a key tool of American soft power for--. since, you know, World War II. But they're also-- not talking about the way in which these. universities aren't just getting these federal grants. for their own selfish needs, but are actually. a source of outsourcing of scientific research, medical research-- JON STEWART: Right. KEVIN KRUSE: --of making breakthroughs, right? JON STEWART: But these arguments, they--.

they have to be delivered forcefully. and with-- like, Jill, you're up at Harvard right now. I have been surprised, pleased that Harvard has stood up. and said, look, we're not letting. you take over our hiring practices. or what we're going to teach. Surprised that they have not been. more sophisticated in mounting what could be a very. robust defense of everything that their research. and their prowess has brought to the American experience. over these last hundreds of years.

that it's been in operation. And I don't think people understand in this media. environment, that argument has to be made with specifics. and with a relentlessness and tenacity that. I'm-- that I'm not seeing. Whether it's about research, whether it's. about the economics of immigration, whether it's. about a foreign students--. everybody just seems to sit back. and take this exploitative framing.

that Trump wants to dole out. Jill, why isn't that happening? JILL LEPORE: That is a good question. I think there are--. JON STEWART: [laughs] No, I want--. Jill, answer! JILL LEPORE: There are fantastic stories. that could be told. JON STEWART: Yes. JILL LEPORE: And I think they would be incredibly powerful. if told by people who have benefited from that largesse, from the public mindedness of the research that is done--. JON STEWART: Yes. JILL LEPORE: --at a place like Harvard. So if we heard from the woman in a town outside of Cleveland.

whose youngest child of four was. saved by research that was conducted. at Harvard Medical School-- JON STEWART: Right. JILL LEPORE: --and we had, like--. like, I'd want to hire the PR firm that's. going to go out and gather these stories and run a podcast. and run a-- run a YouTube series about it. Because people do benefit tremendously. And there is-- that, that's on us as--. as the institutions of higher education, that we have not done that. JON STEWART: Right. And work together. JILL LEPORE: It's entirely our fault, right?

Like, we're just supposed to assume people think what. we're doing is-- is valuable. You know, no. So I-- I agree with you. Why that's not being done? I think that, you know, faculty try to do. that in an individual way. But we're pretty busy just trying to help. our students get through. JON STEWART: There is a whole industry of consultants. and commercial people who usually work sanding the edges. and polishing the turds that are this nation's politicians. that could be employed using some money from the 80 schools.

or whatever, 120 schools that are. in a conglomerate to make these campaigns. to relentlessly put to the--. the Trump administration framing has to be fought. KEVIN KRUSE: Absolutely, yeah. JON STEWART: This type of authoritarian framing. has to be fought with-- with intelligence and tenacity. And the stories, either the stories are there. or they're not there. Either this is valuable or not valuable. But its value has to be defended.

And I guess I'm--. I'm sort of flummoxed. JILL LEPORE: And that's been the case for a long. time, right? I mean, the stories that came out about higher education. for the last, I would say, since 2010 have. been about, like oh, like, remember. the Harvard placemat story? I don't want to, like-- JON STEWART: What? JILL LEPORE: --revise it. Or the Yale Halloween story? JON STEWART: Right, right, right. JILL LEPORE: They've all been these, like--. JON STEWART: Yeah. JILL LEPORE: They've been--. KEVIN KRUSE: The Oberlin banh mi scandal. JON STEWART: Yeah, yeah, yeah. JILL LEPORE: Oh, there's the Oberlin wine story. JON STEWART: Yes. JILL LEPORE: So, right, so. JON STEWART: Tasty anecdotes that go viral. JILL LEPORE: But to just be like, OK,

well, we're just going to pretend those. things aren't-- you know? Let's just go-- let's just-- let's. just go back to the library. That was never going to be the right approach. JON STEWART: But even back then, like my kids. are in college. Like, all this shit about, like, it's a woke nightmare. Like, I'm telling you, 98% of those kids on college campuses. have no-- it's a place to, like, still try and drink and get laid and just. get through your studies. Like, that's what a lot of it is. And their fear is not raising opinions in classrooms. It's generally social media shaming.

It's really their peers that they're afraid of--. KEVIN KRUSE: Yeah. JON STEWART: --having nothing to do. with this sort of idea of--. I think that's all been--. JILL LEPORE: I think it's both. I mean, I don't know. JON STEWART: Ah, maybe. JILL LEPORE: I really think there is--. I would say, like, from the front lines--. JON STEWART: [laughs]. JILL LEPORE: There's been some crap going on. JON STEWART: Right, right. JILL LEPORE: You know, that people are like, wow, this is really bad. Like, how are we going to stop this? This is crazy. And, you know, feeling kind of like, what could we do, but that doesn't also give fodder to the people that want.

to destroy this institution? JON STEWART: Right. JILL LEPORE: I think that's a-- that's-- that's a. real challenge. But it does behoove higher education. as a realm that is crucial to democratic life. to do that work. And I think-- I mean, I think here's. where a historical vantage is important. JON STEWART: All right, Jill, come on. JILL LEPORE: Because if you think. about the conservative insurgency that dates that--. Kevin will have a much better vantage on this than I--. JON STEWART: Boom. JILL LEPORE: --you know, it really begins in the 1950s, you know, with the John Birchers and William F. Buckley and their strange, silent alliance.

What that conservative insurgency determined. was that in order to defeat the stranglehold that they believed. liberals had on American politics. and the constitutional order, they. needed to defeat the arbiters of truth and knowledge. And that was the press and that was--. JON STEWART: Wow. JILL LEPORE: --the courts, and that was the university. And when you think about that, how. are we going to defeat these-- these liberal institutions? Well, we can discredit them. We can make alternative versions. Or we can just out and out destroy them.

And, you know, they made an alternative press that took. a long time, took decades. You know, you don't really see that until the 1980s with--. JON STEWART: Sure, Ailes. JILL LEPORE: --Limbaugh, Limbaugh era and Ailes. They took over the courts. You know, you don't really see that happening. to the Federalist Societies formed in 1982. But then Reagan makes those-- those kind. of devices his litmus test for the-- for the courts. They've completely transformed the federal judiciary. But what they couldn't really figure out, because they tried.

finding an alternative to higher education, you know, these various Christian. and evangelical and other kind of right-wingy kind. of institutions of higher learning. But they weren't very successful. They didn't really have the talent. and people didn't want to go to those schools over other--. over other schools. So the wrath which with the Stephen Millers of the world. or the tech right, the Peter Thiel's of the world. are, you know, so salivating at the opportunity to destroy, especially the Ivy League. JON STEWART: Right.

JILL LEPORE: It comes from the stand pat-ness. of higher education as the place. where truth-- truth will not die. JON STEWART: Because they don't know they're in a war. That's the whole idea. That's the point of these institutions, whether they're. the press or whether it's education, or all of these other civil institutions. didn't realize they were in a war, that they had-- that there was an enemy that. was stalking them. Kevin, is the Ivy League, is that. the final boss battle of this conservative.

move from the 1950s on up? Because they have built parallel institutions. They have discredited, you know, whatever it was that had the authority in the country. Is that the final move? KEVIN KRUSE: I think so. I think Jill is the final boss. And they're coming for you. But, I mean, what Jill said-- JILL LEPORE: Oh, thanks, Kevin. No, they're coming for you. [laughs]. KEVIN KRUSE: No, no no, no. JON STEWART: Both of you. KEVIN KRUSE: No. JON STEWART: The only thing that's left will be podcasters. We are the cockroaches of this new society. KEVIN KRUSE: [laughs] Godspeed, godspeed.

No, but, look, what Jill said is absolutely right. This has been decades in the making. And they've made no secret. Project 2025 wasn't the first time they released the script. Go back to the-- the memo Lewis Powell. wrote for the Chamber of Commerce. in 1971, right before Nixon put him on the Supreme Court, basically saying, we have got to fight. these other institutions. And we have got to build up our own. And they've done both of that, right? JON STEWART: Right. KEVIN KRUSE: And so they've built. up, as she said, alternate media. universe very successfully.

And this comes out of Roger Ailes experiences with Nixon. JON STEWART: We will never let them do that, what they did to Nixon, again. KEVIN KRUSE: Yeah. And he hated Nixon. Nixon was a horrible client. He said Nixon looked like he was 42 years old the day. he was born, right? He was, you know--. JON STEWART: [laughs]. KEVIN KRUSE: Other kids got a football for Christmas, Nixon. got a briefcase. Ailes is funny about Nixon. But he knew he had a crap product. and went about finding a way to sell it. So it's not about improving the product, it's about improving the sales. Anyway, but these alternative institutions. have been built up. But as Jill said, education was the one that they couldn't do.

So what did they do? They tried to tear it down. And it's been subtler before this. It used to be back in the '60s when all these college kids. were protesting, the conclusion of the right was, hey, you know what? This excellent free public education. we've been giving to-- to young people is actually a bad thing. These are educated minds that are. going off in new directions. And that's a troubling new thing. And so you start to see--. and they're very explicit about this. JON STEWART: These are indoctrination centers. KEVIN KRUSE: They're indoctrination centers. JON STEWART: These are not educational centers. KEVIN KRUSE: Yeah. And so you start to see a real pushback against what.

used to be fairly cheap and widely available, quality public education. And they jacked up the prices on that. and made it much more expensive, which then led to a lot of more expectations. on the part of people who saw themselves not as students, but as customers, who were paying for a service. that they could expect to be tailored back to them. JON STEWART: And the expense went up way faster than--. KEVIN KRUSE: And the expense went up way faster. And so--. JON STEWART: It did explode. KEVIN KRUSE: Yeah, yeah. And so that-- and so that set up, you know, a problem with a lot of universities.

But of course, the Ivy League has been. largely immune to this, right? I mean, the kind of people who go there, either. through their own means or through scholarship, don't have to worry about the funding issue. And so they've largely been immune from this. And through their endowments, they haven't been. reliant on state legislatures. So yeah, I think private institutions writ large, but the Ivy League in general is a big target. for Trump and his cronies. JON STEWART: Now, let me ask you, Jill, you. brought up earlier about executive orders. and national emergencies and sort. of being pioneered in some ways by Democrats. and now being flipped around.

Let's take the-- the reverse of that, as far as Trump's. punishing of institutions that won't. bend down to his whims and the ways that he's doing it. So he'll go after maybe your tax exempt status, or he'll cancel your federal. Or he's threatened California with federal funding that's not. going to go out or their educational funding. or going to put people in jail or. he's going to do these things. Is that also opening up a can of worms? As I watch that happen, I thought, oh, shit,

is that what we're-- is that what we're doing now, that the people get to say, I'm not comfortable. with my tax dollars going to a state that I don't agree with? Oh, I didn't know that was on the table. So maybe when someone who agrees with me gets in, they go, I'm not comfortable with my tax dollars going. to a state that gets a block grant. and uses it to build a volleyball stadium. I'm not comfortable with any tax breaks. that right wing media gets. I'm not comfortable with tax exemptions.

for religious groups. Are we now in, OK, great, tit for tat, baby? That's the new world order? JILL LEPORE: Yes, we are there. And it's hard to see how you turn back from that. This is what people say who study authoritarianism, that you know that you're in a state that is moving. toward authoritarianism, things that you once. did without thinking twice about it, you think about because--. you think about not doing, because you.

consider the consequences and you are afraid. So if you are thinking of going out, there's this No More Kings rally this weekend. across the country, if you were thinking of going out. and it occurs to you, maybe I won't because I don't know. if they're going to have those rubber bullets. or I don't know if there's going to be facial recognition, and then I'm going to get my visa revoked--. like, if you're second guessing ordinary political activity, ordinary daily activity, what store you might go to--.

JON STEWART: Being punished for writing an op ed. JILL LEPORE: What you might do when your student newspaper, who you might employ in your Home Depot, if you're rethinking what you might do, which is perfectly lawful activity, and deciding maybe you're not going to do it, even if you. still do it, if you have thought twice about it, that is a concern. And I would suggest that I don't know anybody who--. who is not fearful of that kind of thing right now. JON STEWART: Right. You know, it's so interesting because the Musk-Trump fight,

in my mind, and the right's reaction to it. was the first time they had to live in the world. that the rest of us are living in. In other words, they saw Trump and Musk go at each other. based on personal slights. And they each, it was like watching two bad wizards, like, trying--. JILL LEPORE: No, it's Mothra and Godzilla. JON STEWART: It was Mothra and Godzilla. I was going to go with-- JILL LEPORE: Yeah, OK. JON STEWART: --Mothra and Godzilla, but I thought I'd switch it up to-- to two bad wizards.

JILL LEPORE: OK. All right. No, no, we got to be accurate. JON STEWART: Exactly, be accurate. The point being that they both start threatening. the vindictive consequences based. on having their feelings hurt. Musk throws out, I'm going to pull. my rockets from the International Space Station. Trump says, I'm pulling away your contract. And you suddenly realize, don't you get? That's how the rest of us have been living, that any minor offense that might trigger the Mercurial.

and vindictive nature of these two man-babies. means you will suffer the full consequences of their power. And for the right, they were like, I hate this. I hate seeing these guys do this. Yeah, welcome to our fucking world. That's what everybody's been dealing with. JILL LEPORE: But I think now if there were. a conservative on this call with us, this person might point out--. JON STEWART: It's me. JILL LEPORE: --that call-out culture.

of the kind of high MeToo era and slightly before and after. had a lot of people in terror about, what did I say to that woman that I work with? What did I-- you know, that-- and some of which. was, OK, maybe I should think about what I said to her. But maybe, like-- maybe that was crazy time. Do you know what I mean? Like, that-- that we have been living in a culture of--. of vindictive-- personal vindictiveness, of social media. mobbing, of public shaming--. JON STEWART: Right, but that is--.

Jill, here's the difference. JILL LEPORE: That is different than the President. of the United States. JON STEWART: Here's the difference. JILL LEPORE: Absolutely. JON STEWART: That is a social media, algorithmically. driven phenomenon. That is not a top-down governmental, with the full force and weight of the United States Army. and budget behind it. It's a complete-- it's--. JILL LEPORE: You're absolutely right, but--. JON STEWART: Like, the same shit. would happen if I said something. bad about Taylor Swift. I think that is an absolutely not essential argument.

about what's happening today. I say that with obviously great respect. JILL LEPORE: No, that's fair, that's fair. I'll take that. I just-- I just think that--. JON STEWART: I know that it was unpleasant, but that unpleasantness is from social media. JILL LEPORE: You're right. You're right. JON STEWART: It really is. And it still exists. JILL LEPORE: But the style of vindictiveness, like, that's a pervasive political style. So I just think that's worth putting out there. But you're-- but I entirely take your point. JON STEWART: Oh my god, I just gave. a Harvard professor a B-minus. That's right. You heard me.

B-minus, Lepore. JILL LEPORE: No, look, we got grade inflation here, Jon. KEVIN KRUSE: I was going to say a B-minus? My god. JON STEWART: A-minus. JILL LEPORE: I'm going to come--. JON STEWART: A-minus. JILL LEPORE: I'm going to come to office hours. JON STEWART: A-minus. JILL LEPORE: I'm coming to office hours. I'm going to change my grade to pass/fail, unless you. commit to an A-minus. JON STEWART: All right. That's how-- you know what? A-minus. JILL LEPORE: That's how we do. JON STEWART: It's done. And we're going to get you into that business school. that you wanted so desperately to be the finance pro. Kevin, do you understand the--. my-- my point being--. KEVIN KRUSE: Yeah. JON STEWART: --those things, when it's the mob--. and I agree with Jill wholeheartedly.

that social media is villagers with torches. looking for monsters. And they find them wherever they look. And those monsters can be actual monsters. Or they can just be people who spoke immodestly for a moment, and they attack with the same viciousness. But this is different. KEVIN KRUSE: Yeah. Look, I mean, you know, if OreoLover420 yells. at me on Bluesky, that's fine. If the world's most powerful narcissist and the world's.

richest narcissist are throwing haymakers. at each other, in which there are stock market fluctuations, in which there are world health crises, in which there are, you know, all kinds of things that come out. of this, international affairs trembling as these two children. trade insults on their individual social media. platforms, which I'm told is how alpha males. apparently fight now. JON STEWART: Sure. KEVIN KRUSE: That is really disturbing.

And that is, I think, what is really alarming. Because what we-- and again, this goes. back to our assumption that--. our assumption that they're going. to be at least nominal grown-ups in charge. has really been undercut. JON STEWART: I don't care if they fight. each other, to be quite frank. What I care about is, what it says. to me is as it is in monarchies, you serve at the pleasure of the king. KEVIN KRUSE: Yeah. JON STEWART: And that is not the American culture. It cannot be that we all serve at the pleasure of the king.

And that's why I always find it fascinating. that this form of the right steeps itself. in such patriotic regalia. You know, they've got the buses with. the airbrushed Constitution and "We the people.". And this is-- man, you want to love your-- your leader, Donald Trump, love him. But this sure as shit isn't the Constitution. and it's not "We the people.". KEVIN KRUSE: Trump has a copy of the Declaration. of Independence in the Oval Office. He's got it framed, little-- little curtains around it, I think. JON STEWART: Right.

KEVIN KRUSE: He has clearly not read it. because he is speed running through the list of complaints. that the founders made in the Declaration of Independence. about King George III. JON STEWART: Right. KEVIN KRUSE: Sending people to prisons abroad, stationing troops in our presence, all-- go down the list, right? And so--. JILL LEPORE: He's read it. It's-- it's his instruction manual. JON STEWART: [laughs]. KEVIN KRUSE: Someone-- someone has read it to him, Jill. JILL LEPORE: It's his Project 1776. JON STEWART: Jill, is it that, this is, like, throughout America's history, there have been moments where. we have overstepped into--. and we've considered those moments somewhat shameful,

whether it's Jim Crow or slavery or the internment. of the Japanese. Is it that Trump is in some ways, and I don't want to suggest that it's to the same extent, but he's condensing our timeline. of those types of overreaches into a kind. of anti-constitutional resin? And so we're just being fed it in a-- like, it's just happening in such concentrated form. Is that what I'm reacting to? Is that what I'm feeling, Jill?

JILL LEPORE: You know, I went back. and I read the coverage of mid-to-late. November 2016, how people reacted to his election. I don't know if you remember, Andrew Sullivan sort. of fatefully wrote this article, "This is Trump's America Now.". A country built to end tyranny and thwart tyranny. is now obligated itself to. We have erected a new king. And a lot of people are like, wow, that's the beginning. of Trump Derangement syndrome. And-- and he was sort of mocked for that. And it turned out he was just premature, right? Like, those four years passed without--. JON STEWART: An early adopter of technology.

JILL LEPORE: Yeah. Like-- like, not that there weren't--. not that there weren't crises in the first Trump. administration, but of course, indeed, the constitutional order held and he was indeed thwarted. And I think--. JON STEWART: But barely, Jill. JILL LEPORE: Like, right. But compared to-- compared to these few months, right? So, I mean, my favorite line from--. there was an Atlanticpiece that. came out a bit ago where a--. a Trump guy said, you know, watching him. in his second term, the first 100 days. was, like, the part of Jurassic Park.

when the velociraptors learn how to turn the doorknobs. JON STEWART: [laughs]. JILL LEPORE: And that's what it is, right? Like, that's-- that's the, OK, you're like, where are the loopholes in federal law and statutes. and the Constitution? JON STEWART: Right. JILL LEPORE: Well, like, [whooshing], that's, like-- that's where we are. But you know what? The thing that really blows my mind with the Musk-Trump thing, I would say as a historian, as much as I have read about it. and thought about it and written about it, I don't think I ever, in a visceral way,

have understood how hard it was to end monarchy, like, how hard it is to bring down someone with that power. Like even Musk, for, you know, whatever, like, OK, you. can have my rockets back, sir. Please, sir. JON STEWART: Right, right, right. JILL LEPORE: They're, like--. this guy's brought to heel. Now he's on his little leash. And-- and not that you wanted him to be out there. He's not going to be fighting for American democracy, whatever he says. But like, if not Harvard, if not LA, if not-- like,

what can actually do it? JON STEWART: Because it's collective. It's collective. It has to be. JILL LEPORE: It is a real opportunity. for us to think about-- JON STEWART: Boom. JILL LEPORE: --on the eve of our 250th--. JON STEWART: Boom. JILL LEPORE: --anniversary. JON STEWART: Come watch. Let me play some music. JILL LEPORE: What do you--. JON STEWART: Get a fife. [humming]. JILL LEPORE: What do you have to do? You know, you have to be willing to stand. with the people that--. JON STEWART: Stand with the people! JILL LEPORE: --you disagree with. And-- and say, I disagree with you about everything, but the one thing we agree about. is that we get to decide how to govern ourselves. JON STEWART: Yes. JILL LEPORE: Some guy doesn't just come in here. and pay everybody off and throw his army around and say what he.

wants to say, and tell everybody else to shut. up and watch him and admire him and look. at his new self-portraits that will be all over the country. JON STEWART: All mug shots. JILL LEPORE: And we shall bow before them. with his fierce [growls]. Like, we can't do that. Like, that's-- KEVIN KRUSE: Yeah. JILL LEPORE: That's going to take a lot of work, like, the amount of work that takes is phenomenal. People have to, like, get off their asses. JON STEWART: And it's not even monarchy. It's hard to get rid of monarchy. Think of how hard it was to get rid of the Gilded Age.

robber barons. You know, the one thing about government. that is not given enough--. government does the things that business. won't because there's not--. or shouldn't. And it's the only thing strong enough. to stand up to a corporate tyranny as well. And so you saw the Gilded Age, man, that thing happened until the fucking bottom dropped out. And then it was a catastrophe. And you worry that only catastrophes. are what wake people from these kinds of slumbers.

And I'll tell you, and this circles around. to sort of our whole conversation, you know, in thinking of the history of the United States. and the various kinds of emergency levers and loopholes. that have been pulled by various presidents, when Trump does little things like that, like fires the inspector generals. or uses the Alien to deport--. it never quite triggered for me what this really was. I'm telling you, January 6 was the one moment.

Because if there is a red line for me in this country, it's that--. it's that transfer of power. We're a democracy until the transfer of power. We may be a more authoritarian style. We may be a slightly less. We may be a more chaotic. But it all fits into this system until that one day. And that day wasn't a day of impulsive explosion, of emotional anger and upset.

It was planned. They tried every avenue, whether it's, I. need 13,000 votes, whether--. and it was strategic. And they talked to people and they said, look, this day is your last shot. Our only hope here is to get this thing. not certified and thrown into the House of Representatives. So the events of that day, the chaos and the violence. were a strategically planned effort to move that. And that, for me, was it.

That was the moment. Whatever happens after that doesn't matter because of that. That's my speech. Kevin, you go first. Jill, you go. KEVIN KRUSE: Well, am I supposed to provide hope here? JON STEWART: Yes! KEVIN KRUSE: I mean, there's--. no, I'm an historian, man. That's not what we do. JON STEWART: Come on! KEVIN KRUSE: That's not what-- we depress people for a living. JON STEWART: Talk about our resilience in overcoming. these-- talk about the perspective. of that this time isn't--. yeah. KEVIN KRUSE: I mean, resilience comes through accountability. It comes through both personal and holding them accountable.

And there was a moment after January 6, there was on January 6 where Mitch McConnell and Kevin. McCarthy and most of Congress, Democrat or Republican, was actually saying, this is an insurrection. This is Trump's fault. We need to hold him responsible. And then they blinked. JON STEWART: Mm-hmm. KEVIN KRUSE: And the Republicans went back. into the partisan mindset. And Democrats refused to push over. And that's where we were left. And then Biden came in.

And we-- we get Merrick Garland holding a lot of these. people accountable. They kind of slow rolled that. They slow rolled the cases. And there wasn't a sense of urgency here. And so there's, I think, in America, we often have-- we saw this after Watergate, the system worked. And it barely worked in Watergate. And then the-- the bad guys figured out. a way to work around all the ways in which. they got caught in Watergate. Don't say stuff on tape. You know, have your alternative media. JON STEWART: Right. KEVIN KRUSE: You know, all these sorts of things. JON STEWART: Have the Supreme Court say there's. no such thing as corruption. KEVIN KRUSE: Correct.

JON STEWART: And you're allowed to have. slush funds as long as you pretend. like you're not coordinating. KEVIN KRUSE: Huge win, huge win. JON STEWART: Right. KEVIN KRUSE: And so all that has radically changed the game. But we don't have to accept it, right? And so there's got to be a will to hold. people accountable, right? And there's I think a craving on the part of voters. And if Democrats are looking for a message, they could do something to show that they actually. have principles and are willing to act on them. and will hold people accountable. And that's what I think voters are dying to see, is they--. JON STEWART: Oh, they're thirsty. KEVIN KRUSE: I think Jill's right. Both-- both sides have gotten--.

JON STEWART: They're thirsty. KEVIN KRUSE: --into this kind of ossified politics. where they are content with the status quo. They don't want to rock the boat too much because the power. might come back to them. They don't want to ban, you know, stock trading from congressmen. There's all kinds of things that they could do to show. that they actually have skin in the game, and that they know that we are invested in what they do. And we are looking to them to truly represent and lead us. And rather than taking a back seat and Democrats constantly. poll testing and seeing what might float--. well, no, take a stand. Put your feet in the ground. JON STEWART: Believe in something. KEVIN KRUSE: State your principles.

Believe in something. JON STEWART: Believe in something, including competence. Jill? JILL LEPORE: Yeah, I don't think. there's a path forward that is a return to power of. the Democrats as a corrective. I think the path forward is, actually--. I mean, meanwhile, there is the day-to-day emergency. and people have to deal with that. I don't mean to slight that. But I think there needs to be a sense of-- of a longer view. of what lies ahead, wherein--. I mean, I love in the 1930s, these federal forums. Well, they weren't initially federal. There was a school teacher or a school superintendent.

in Detroit who started--. people were really, like, not believing in democracy anymore. Some people wanted, you know, FDR to take on more, like, dictatorial powers. There were a lot of American fascists. There were a lot of American technocrats. They belonged to this movement that Elon. Musk's grandfather was the national leader of in Canada. JON STEWART: Oh. JILL LEPORE: There were a lot of people--. JON STEWART: We'll talk about that in a little bit. Finish your thing. And then I want to talk about--. I want to talk about Haldeman and the technocracy. JILL LEPORE: Americans were drawn. to a lot of different kind of views. other than-- than democracy.

Like, maybe democracy is not going. to get out of this depression. JON STEWART: Right. JILL LEPORE: And this guy, the school. teacher, school superintendent was like, you know what? I got a lot of empty buildings. My buildings are empty every weeknight. And he started having-- he'd poll. neighborhoods and say, what would. you guys like to talk about? And he would open up the building, people would come by, and be like, what kind of country do you want? Do you want-- do you think the Supreme Court should be--. that the president should be able to veto. Supreme Court decisions? Do you think that we should have national health insurance? Do you think that the Communist Party should be outlawed?

And they would have these neighborhood debates. And they'd-- you know, they'd bring in people to talk. And it got to be this huge thing all over-- all over, like-- like a huge percentage of people in Detroit, like, went. And so Eleanor Roosevelt was like, this is a genius idea. and gave some New Deal funding to it. And then they were sort of held all over the country. And I think that until you can have institutions that really. cultivate civic renewal and democratic values, that all the shifting of power like, oh, who has the ball now?

Like, are we on the 10-yard line? Or I don't know. I can't do a frickin' sports metaphor. JON STEWART: Jill, that worked for me. JILL LEPORE: We can't just be like, who's got the ball? Thank you, thank you. JON STEWART: 10-yard line, ball, I was--. I was all in. I'm all in. KEVIN KRUSE: It was a slam dunk into the net. JON STEWART: Kevin, well done, well done. JILL LEPORE: You really need to bring people together. And there are a ton of these organizations like Bridge USA, you know, they're just trying to, like, have gatherings. And it seems hokey. It's like, who's bringing the gingham. tablecloth for the picnic? But-- but it's-- it's really crucial.

JON STEWART: I don't think it's hokey at all. I think it's-- it's necessary. And it's how the Tea Party did it. The thing, though, that people have. to understand is there is a class of people who have. weaponized all the tools of communication. against that very idea that you just spoke about, Jill, the idea that we would get together. to shore up civic institutions and the ability. to carry on discourse. Those avenues are weaponized almost immediately.

There-- there is a whole class of people whose entire. livelihoods rely on the fact of bomb throwing on the internet. and all those other things that they do, so that they can obscure the fact that we, as a people, have. a lot more in common than--. than different. They obscure that fact. And until we--. I honestly think, you know, we talked about it earlier, and this brings it around, this 50 to 60-year project, to--.

to change that, unless something. is put up with the same financial backing and tenacity. and principle to--. to reverse that trend, I think we'll find. ourselves on the back end. KEVIN KRUSE: And it's important to remember that it's not. just that the media or social media or individuals. are siloed. Our politics are, too, right? And I think we make too much out of polarization. giving equal weight to left and right. It's mostly the right that I think has gone hyperpartisan. But both sides really are hidebound by a system in which.

districts are increasingly gerrymandered, money is. increasingly sent to the people who scream the loudest, the media hits are given to the people who. fill the partisan slots on news shows, pro or con. And so all the incentives are there for politicians. JON STEWART: And corruption has been legalized. KEVIN KRUSE: Yeah. And any Republican today is not worried about-- worried. about, you know, their general election opponent. They're worried about getting primaried, right? That's where the real threat comes. And then they skate through to the general. JON STEWART: Yeah, yeah, yeah. JILL LEPORE: But I think isn't this always. an opportunity to shame the lack of philanthropy.

among the tech elite? JON STEWART: [laughs]. JILL LEPORE: Because if we go back to the robber barons, like, what did those robber barons do? They had a sense of what is now fashionably. called long-termerism, right? JON STEWART: They were just trying to get into heaven. JILL LEPORE: They exercised that faith. in the future or concern of the future. by Carnegie starting the libraries and Rockefeller. endowing foundations that would grant. funds-- that grant funds to institutions. of higher learning. And what's our long-termerism? Well, let's talk about existential risk, and let's go to the moon, and then let's go to Mars.

Some of these people could have a different sense. of the public weal. And I don't think it's too late, I really don't think. Like, some of these people, like, on their little mountain. top, mountainhead, can say, oh, shit, and they can decide to use their great wealth. to a different end. I mean, I honestly wish they didn't have it, but they can use it. JON STEWART: Musk did that, but he. decided to use it for the weaponized purpose of--. JILL LEPORE: Of X. JON STEWART: --power and politics. And to that end, and I just want to get this in quickly.

because it's so fascinating, Musk's grandfather, and you know a lot about this, this guy Haldeman. What is it? The flying Haldeman? JILL LEPORE: The flying Haldeman. JON STEWART: The flying Haldeman was a technocrat. and his philosophy is sort of the one that you say still. is pervasive within Musk's worldview. JILL LEPORE: Yeah, so in the 1930s technocracy, the Technocracy Movement, it was. Technocracy Incorporated, nice little corporate touch there--. JON STEWART: Right. JILL LEPORE: --was a North American movement. It was led in Canada by Musk's grandfather, Joshua Haldeman,

who was a kind of amateur aviator, an anti-vaxxer, and a chiropractor. And they believed that democracy had failed, that there shouldn't be elections anymore, that people should not have the vote. The only people who could be trusted in industrial society. to determine the direction of politics and government was--. were scientists and engineers. And they should rule. There should be no money, no banks. Most people shouldn't work. You know, just these great men would just figure things out. JON STEWART: Were these objectivists?

Were these people, like, working off of objectivism? Or were they different than that? JILL LEPORE: No, they worked on--. Jon, they were kooks. You know, they drove--. they wore--. JON STEWART: [laughs] They don't even get a name. KEVIN KRUSE: Unlike the objectivists, yeah. JON STEWART: [laughs]. JILL LEPORE: They were identical gray uniforms. They drove identical gray cars. And when things-- when--. when Canada outlawed the technocracy movement. on the fear that it was danger to civil society. and to the government, Musk's grandfather went to jail.

He was denied entry into the US. And then in 1958, he moved to South Africa, where he became a pamphleteer in support. of the apartheid regime--. so-- and a famous anti-Semite--. JON STEWART: What? JILL LEPORE: --a really kind of important influence. in the kind of global anti-Semitism. movement of the 1960s, so. JON STEWART: Oh my god. JILL LEPORE: It's a-- it's a troubling family history. Now, just to be clear, you know, this guy. died when Musk was a toddler. Like, this is not-- JON STEWART: Right, right. JILL LEPORE: --a personal handoff. JON STEWART: Right.

JILL LEPORE: But there are a lot. of similarities between the--. the politics of technocracy and of techno libertarianism. JON STEWART: Well, listen, guys, I can't thank you enough. for-- for taking the time. Please tell your universities to do my idea. and get together with all the universities and fight. Let's just-- just get it out there. in a very powerful and tenacious. way, all the good things. Jill Lepore, Professor of History and Law at Harvard, Kevin Kruse, a Professor of History at Princeton.

University, both incredibly hopeful about the future of. this country and the people. Guys, I got to--. JILL LEPORE: That's a laugh line. JON STEWART: Come on, I gotta-- KEVIN KRUSE: Take it again. I won't laugh. I won't laugh. Take it again. JON STEWART: Son of a bitch. Guys, thank you so much. And I hope to get a chance to talk to you again soon. KEVIN KRUSE: Awesome. Thanks for having us. JILL LEPORE: Thanks, Jon. JON STEWART: Bye. [theme music]. Wow. Let me say this, guys, and you can tell me what you think. I thought that was going to be more optimistic,

to be perfectly frank. LAUREN WALKER: We always do. We always do. JON STEWART: What? LAUREN WALKER: I'm so sad. JON STEWART: I kept thinking that they would say something. like, you don't understand, there was. a battle at Antietam that was the most--. we're not anywhere near. And they're both like, I don't know how we get. out of this, this doom loop. LAUREN WALKER: Jill saying that, like, she had never. really thought about how hard it was to topple. a monarchy before, it really--. really didn't make me feel great. [laughter]. If I'm being honest.

JON STEWART: And how-- and how easily it. seems you can hack the operating. code of our Constitution for a more, like, unitary executive purpose, I think. that was surprising to me. LAUREN WALKER: You can look at the situation. and just see so many absurdities. Like, I was thinking about, OK, so we. have the parade coming up. That's going to take up X amount of money. We have the National Guard and the Marines--. JON STEWART: Sure. LAUREN WALKER: --being sent to LA, that's X amount of money. And then Trump announces, you know what?

We need to wean the states off FEMA, even though natural disasters are occurring more frequently. You know, like, it's just, none of it makes any logical sense, yet here we are. JON STEWART: You'd almost think it was an emergency. that we could declare. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. [laughs]. JON STEWART: Too bad-- too bad-- too bad we. have no emergency powers. I will say this, though, about both professors. Now, I, you know, didn't necessarily pay much attention. in school, but I would like to have professors of that spirit.

They seemed very engaged and, like, that would be--. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Lovely. LAUREN WALKER: And have all the topical references. JON STEWART: Right? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. JON STEWART: She was throwing downMountainhead. Like, she's throwing down shit that. just started streaming on Ma--. whatever. LAUREN WALKER: Oh, yeah, she's up to date. She's a historian, but she's also in the moment, you know? She does it all. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: History of today. JON STEWART: I was surprised she didn't tell me. that I ate and left no crumbs. LAUREN WALKER: [laughs]. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Oh, shit. LAUREN WALKER: I could see she was on the verge of that. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. JON STEWART: She was on the verge of that. Brittany, what do we got from our vaunted listeners?

BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: We got two doozies this week. JON STEWART: Oh, really? All right. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. Jon--. JON STEWART: Yes? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Do you think. ABC should have fired Terry Moran. over his Stephen Miller tweet? JON STEWART: Of course not. So stupid. No, for god sakes. Should they have fired him? They shouldn't have paid the $15 million. They shouldn't have fired him. They're literally every day on Fox News, they're taking stuff out of context, or they're people are saying utterly vicious. things about Democratic politicians. and all kinds of other things. The entire thing is because ABC clings to this facade,

that they somehow exist in a bubble. outside of-- of all of this. It's-- it's a joke. They're a fucking joke. And--. LAUREN WALKER: And Stephen Miller, by the way, would wear that like a badge of honor. He's a sick fuck. He's got it printed out, probably, and hung in his office. JON STEWART: Sick fuck is exactly right. And I think, like--. like, exactly like you say, like, as I said, when he comes, he shouts--. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: I knew this was coming.

JON STEWART: --he shouts deport! And I stand by that. LAUREN WALKER: You know, I was thinking, who is left at ABC that is acceptable to Trump. to interview him? Because Stephanopoulos had to say sorry. Now Terry Moran is out. Muir and Davis held him accountable at a debate. Like, who will be left? JON STEWART: There's no-- and the problem. with it all is there's no level of fealty that is enough. You've seen him attack Fox News. That is literally, like, a 24-hour. Trump ball polishing machine.

And so the idea that somehow there is a level of fealty. that these journalists-- what does he always say whenever. he-- gets asked a question? That's a terrible question. Why don't you ever just thank me? Oh, in other words, like just another one of your fucking. cabinet members. LAUREN WALKER: Yep. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yep. JON STEWART: Jesus. All right, what else we got? Now mad. All right, Brittany, what do you got? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: We like Mad Jon. JON STEWART: Yeah. LAUREN WALKER: [inaudible] sad. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: True that. JON STEWART: Sad, too, yeah. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Elon now says he, quote "went too far". with tweets about Trump. Is that an apology or a business decision?

JON STEWART: Oh, I think it's for sure, now he's--. he doesn't get to sit at that table anymore in the lunchroom. And nobody else wants to sit with him. And so he's-- he's crawling back. But, you know, I'll wait until they. say I went too far with taking away HIV medicine from fucking. orphans in-- in Africa to-- to think. that there's been any kind of reflection in-- in this person. Or I went too far in calling civil service workers. parasites, and people that I want.

to shame and give trauma to. It's-- it's-- I--. nah. I-- now I'm having a bad day. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Oh. LAUREN WALKER: And on that note. [laughs]. JON STEWART: On that note, it's all self-preservation. and everything. Listen, these guys know that with the billions of dollars. that are on the line, that they still can help each other sit. on their prospective thrones. And they will continue to do so with no-- anybody who says.

the biggest problem in the Western world right. now is empathy, I really don't have a ton of hope. for, as far as having an epiphany about what's going on. So yeah, I'm not--. I'm not buying it. I don't know about you guys, but I'm not--. I'm not buying it. Brittany? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yes? Yes, Jon? JON STEWART: How can people get in touch with us. and not make us sad? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: [laughs] Twitter, we. are WeeklyShowPod, Instagram, Threads, TikTok, Bluesky, we are WeeklyShowPodcast.

And you can like, subscribe, and comment. on our YouTube channel,The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart. JON STEWART: Boom. Thank you guys very much. Fantastic. Happy to be back. It's June, baby. Let's keep this bad boy going. Thanks again. Lead Producer Lauren Walker, Producer Brittany Mehmedovic, Video Editor and Engineer Rob Vitola, Audio Editor. and Engineer Nicole Boyce, Researcher. and Associate Producer Gillian Spear, and our Executive producers Mr. Chris McShane, Ms. Caity Gray. All right, guys, that was fun. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Always. [laughter].

JON STEWART: All right, talk to you guys. Bye. [theme music]. The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart. is a Comedy Central podcast that's produced by Paramount. Audio and Busboy productions.