Ben Rhodes On the War In Iran & US Foreign Policy | The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart

JON STEWART: The bar for intervention. in foreign countries, militarily and otherwise, should be the same as the bar to release the Epstein files. Like, if they can hold off on that--. BEN RHODES: Yeah. JON STEWART: --then surely they can hold the line on bombing--. BEN RHODES: On dumb wars. [MUSIC PLAYING]. JON STEWART: Hello, everybody. Welcome to The Weekly Show Podcast. My name is Jon Stewart, and I will be your host and guide. on this week's episode. It is Tuesday, May 12.

We won the war in Iran. It is over. The only slight hiccup is apparently Iran believes. they also won the war in Iran. And so we're at a little bit of a stalemate. as we're trying to figure out who. is correct in that environment, and it does get incredibly. confusing, to some extent. So we thought today, rather than. speculate, we want to unravel the past a little bit. in terms of how has America gotten here where we feel as.

though we need to intervene in every different area. of the world, whether through covert coups, or bombing raids, or sanctions, or all these other methodologies. to control the world, none of which seem to do that at all. They just seem to sow an increased level of chaos. So we thought, well, who knows about that kind of stuff? Maybe somebody who's been in the room. when those interventions are being discussed.

And that's who we're going to talk to today. [MUSIC PLAYING]. The author of the upcoming book All We Say, writer, political commentator, national security analyst, currently co-host and Pod Save the World contributor, in with us now, Ben Rhodes. What's happening, man? BEN RHODES: Hey, Jon, good to see you. JON STEWART: Good to see you. Now, you were a speechwriter for President Obama. You were Deputy National Security. Advisor to President Obama. In this current moment that we find ourselves,

where we are in a war to hopefully coerce. the Iranian regime to give us something. that vaguely resembles the JCPOA that was. negotiated how many years ago? 15? BEN RHODES: Over 10 years now, Jon. JON STEWART: 10 years. BEN RHODES: Over 10 years, yeah. JON STEWART: Yeah. What has it been like for you to watch this play out,

having been involved with a similar scenario. of attempting to prevent Iran from getting a nuclear weapon? BEN RHODES: Well, I've had to do my breathing exercises. and work on my serenity, if you remember the bruising. debate over the JCPOA. And look, I think a couple of things I would highlight. about this is, first of all, when we looked at this problem, let's just take the Iranian nuclear program. And we should put aside the fact that Trump clearly thought.

he was also going to change the Iranian regime with this war, and nobody talks about that anymore. JON STEWART: Right. BEN RHODES: But when we looked at this problem, we basically determined there are. two ways that you could prevent Iran. from getting a nuclear weapon. One is through a nuclear deal in which they agree to accept. restrictions on their program, inspections on their program, but they're not going to dismantle their entire program. They just weren't going to do that. Or you could try to bomb their program out of existence.

JON STEWART: All right. BEN RHODES: Every scenario we looked at, we war gamed it. We were briefed by Bibi Netanyahu. on what a great idea it would be to bomb. the Iranian nuclear program. We got the same version of the same presentation Trump did. JON STEWART: He has a very consistent briefing on that. BEN RHODES: Yes, it's very consistent. I mean, Obama got it so much that sometimes. in these lengthy phone calls, you. would see his attention wander, because Bibi was. going right to the same place. But every time we looked at it, what was clear. is, first of all, you can't bomb a nuclear program out. of existence.

It's too scattered. It's knowledge that the Iranians have. It's scientists that they have. They know how to do the nuclear fuel cycle. You can't destroy that from the air. Maybe if you occupied the country, you could. And also, we saw the extraordinary costs. that would come with any war. In every war game I ever looked at, the Iranians would shut down the Strait. of Hormuz, through which 20% of the world's fossil fuel. energy flows. In every scenario, they were likely to lash out. JON STEWART: Oh, but Ben, that's not realistic. That's just war games. That's just permutations from a computer.

In reality, how could they shut down the Strait of Hormuz? It would be--. BEN RHODES: It's not a very large body of water. And so what's so insane about watching. all is this was very clear to anybody who, in good faith, assessed the problem. When we were there--. and frankly, I think probably even. other presidencies and administrations, probably. even Trump's first term. And for some reason, known only to him and maybe.

to Bibi Netanyahu, he decided to give it a try. and see if we can eliminate this regime by bombing. them and destroy their nuclear program. JON STEWART: We could just wing it. BEN RHODES: We could wing it. And here we are, where the best--. he's caused incalculable damage to our reputation, to the global economy. Thousands of people have been killed--. I mean, real consequences. Hundreds of billions of dollars have been spent. And I think the costs of this were much higher than we know.

JON STEWART: No, I believe it's 25, Ben-- $25 billion is--. BEN RHODES: Yeah. JON STEWART: That's all it is. That's the official figure. BEN RHODES: Even though they asked for $200 to pay for it. JON STEWART: You always got to have a cushion, a little rainy day cushion. BEN RHODES: Pete Hegseth always likes. to go out with a little extra money in his pocket. JON STEWART: You've got to have steak, lobster, and those little mini vodkas that you get from the airplane. BEN RHODES: Yeah, exactly. But, I mean, we're right back to a place. where the best thing Trump could get, literally the best thing that he could get out of this war, which still I don't think would have been worth anywhere.

near the cost that we paid, is something. approximating the Iran nuclear deal, the JCPOA, in. which they--. guess what they did under the deal, Jon? They shipped their stockpile out of the country. JON STEWART: What? BEN RHODES: The dust, the nuclear dust that Trump. keeps talking about. That was routinely shipped out of the country. JON STEWART: Plus, they only-- it was enriched at, what, 3% during the deal? BEN RHODES: That's right. JON STEWART: And there was an inspection regime, yes, that went in and checked on all these things for the Iranians? BEN RHODES: There was an inspection regime.

JON STEWART: Or they never got in. BEN RHODES: They always got in and. the inspections-- because some of it. was inspectors, like people. Some of it was cameras. We had inspections of their uranium mines and mills. so we can make sure they weren't diverting their uranium. to some covert program. The enrichment facilities to storage facilities. where the centrifuges were, all these places were inspected. They had limitations on how many centrifuges. they could operate. They shipped the stockpile out of the country. They destroyed their plutonium reactor. so that they didn't have that as a possibility. for getting a weapon-- all of these restrictions.

But importantly, you also had the UN Security Council--. Russia, China, the United States, France, the United. Kingdom, Germany, European Union-- in on the deal. and the International Atomic Energy Agency. verifying the deal. Now, you've got Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner flying. to Pakistan for reasons that are mysterious, unless you think that it's because Pakistan. has invested in Trump crypto. So you don't have the whole world. in on even what's happening. And so the best thing he can get. is something that is very much like the deal he pulled out of.

And why do we go through this? JON STEWART: Which he won't take. I mean, part of it is he's hemmed. in by his dislike of Obama. I mean, unfortunately, his ego has created an environment. where he is unable to make decisions. based on the kind of realpolitik or what he can get. Because he's already come out and said, well, we can't give the Iranians.

their money back, because Obama gave them, what, $1.7 billion? BEN RHODES: Yeah, and he claims that every dollar. in the banks and Washington, which is just. a completely made-up story. But you're right. The only thing he--. the deal is what we did. You know, the Iranians get some money, like they get some unfrozen assets. Their own money, by the way, is what we provided them with. It wasn't US taxpayer money at all. They sell oil on the market, and. that money gets frozen in accounts.

because of our sanctions. So you release some of that to the Iranians. Or the $1.7 billion was money that we owed them. from the pre-1979, when the Shah bought. a bunch of military equipment from us and we never delivered. JON STEWART: It was a refund on military. BEN RHODES: It was, because they had sued. us in International Court. But anyway, the point is, you're right. He keeps wanting there to be some military action he takes. that kind of forces the appearance. that the Iranians have lost somehow,

and they come out with their hands. up and surrender something. But the reality is he can't do that, because he's killed some. of the Iranian leadership. The Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps, which is the most hardline aspect of that regime, is calling the shots. They're the ones who've closed the Straits. They're not going to want to concede. anything that goes beyond something like the JCPOA. And so Trump either has to take his vast military armada. and go home, having humiliated himself.

before the entire world, done none of the things he promised. when he launched this war from his golf club, and he kind of can't come to terms with that. And so we're in this crazy place. where we're on the precipice of, like, a potential global economic calamity. if these shortages continue to persist. in countries around the world. Americans can't afford the price of gas, never mind fertilizer and other things. that depend on that Strait. And so he's caught between the huge political costs he's going.

to pay if this continues-- and he's already paying--. and his ego. And it's an uncomfortable place for the entire world. to be stuck. JON STEWART: Hasn't this war, to some extent, had. the counterintuitive effect of, by raising the price of oil. to such an extent, has he not replenished some of the coffers. in Iran, you know, far beyond $1.7 billion. that he would complain about? BEN RHODES: Yes, even beyond that. He's raised the price of oil, which benefits.

not just Iran, but Putin. JON STEWART: Russia, yeah. BEN RHODES: Importantly, what Iran has done. is they've begun to treat the Strait of Hormuz. like a toll road. You know, they're already getting paid. just to let tankers through. JON STEWART: In crypto mostly. BEN RHODES: Yeah, well, and so--. JON STEWART: Melania Coin. I think they get Melania Coin. BEN RHODES: Yeah, well, they've done what Trump did. Hey, we've got a coin, too. And just for history, it's what the Egyptians did with the Suez. Canal after they fought a war in which they wanted. to nationalize the Suez Canal. And they're still getting paid for transit through there.

JON STEWART: No, I thought there. was a-- isn't there a maritime treaty that suggests. free navigation and that charging those types of tolls--. is that against international law? BEN RHODES: Yes, but guess what? So is invading and bombing another country. JON STEWART: Wait, what? BEN RHODES: When you dispense of international law, guess what? Your adversaries also stop paying attention. to international law. JON STEWART: Interesting. BEN RHODES: And I think this is important, too, though, because the Iranians have now demonstrated. that their ability to control that Strait is kind.

of like a nuclear deterrent. Is America likely to attack them again? I don't think so after how this one went. And so we've given them also not just. additional revenue sources. We've actually given them in some ways greater security, because they've demonstrated a deterrent that they. have through that Strait. JON STEWART: And because they've demonstrated that, then they've they've-- now, UAE, Oman, I guess they're the-- they also border that Strait. Do they think, well, jeez, why did he do that? Or is the part that they're at just too wide for them to be.

able to get a cut of that? BEN RHODES: Well, Oman is closer, right? But it's also just the fact that they're. stakeholders in the American-led petrodollar. security and global economy. So they're playing by the rules. And they also don't have the kind of military strength. JON STEWART: That everything is traded in petrodollars. coming through there.

BEN RHODES: Exactly. And that the transaction-- because this is another thing, a geopolitical thing that is happening, which is that the Chinese have wanted to do. trades not in the dollar to weaken our control. of the global economy. The Iranians want that. The Russians want that. And increasingly, other countries are like, ah. Like, I'm not sure I want to give the Americans. control over our economy, because that's. what the dollar gives us. JON STEWART: Right. BEN RHODES: We can sanction whoever we want, you know? But importantly, I think those other countries, particularly, in different ways, the UAE, Saudi, and Qatar, are likely to look at us who we're their security guarantor.

Like, their whole model is we have these monarchies. We get to stay in power. The Americans provide our security, and we provide our people with a measure. of prosperity and stability. That model has been kind of shattered by this war. JON STEWART: Sure. BEN RHODES: And so you could start. to see them hedging against us, and drawing closer to China. or Russia, or just looking for other options. so that they're not overly reliant on a country, the United States, it started a war. that caused, predictably, drones and missiles. to rain down on them.

JON STEWART: Right, because they're. sort of presenting themselves as the cities of the future, these sort of Jetsons-esque. We're going to build islands out of nothing in the sand. We're going to build buildings. And then when you see drones and missiles hitting. those cities and people fleeing the these casinos. of wealth and power, it does tend to diminish it. BEN RHODES: It does. I mean, the Dubai model, that's the UAE's, like-- that's. the ultimate Jetson city. JON STEWART: That's their jewel.

BEN RHODES: Their model depends upon the idea. that this is a safe place to visit. This is a desirable place to live. If you're an oligarch, come live. here and put your money here. JON STEWART: Sure. BEN RHODES: Come do business here. JON STEWART: Duty free-- it's a duty. free shop, the entire city. BEN RHODES: It's a duty free shop, yes. And it's gone from the situation. being that the Emirates would literally pay influencers. to come and post pictures of themselves on social media. enjoying Dubai to nobody there is allowed to post anything. or else they get arrested. JON STEWART: I was going to say, to jailing.

influencers for doing that. BEN RHODES: Yeah. And I think what that tells you, though--. and this is, I think, another important part. Believe it or not, Jon, the Pete Hegseth Department of War. has not been transparent with you about the extent. of damage that has been done. JON STEWART: What? Hold on. BEN RHODES: Yeah, I know it's hard to believe. JON STEWART: Hey, what? BEN RHODES: Yeah. Yeah, I know. I know. It's shocking. [MUSIC PLAYING]. JON STEWART: Folks, I'm going to be honest with you. A lot of times I'll be--. I'll be pitching you products.

Am I crazy about them? I don't know. Maybe I'll muster some enthusiasm, give you a little--. give you a little taste of the old sales spiel, a little bit of the, you know, coffee is for closers. You know what I'm talking about, a little Glengarry Glen Ross trying to push product, win. the knives, keep my job so I'm not out on the street. like Willy Loman? But then, every now and again, a product comes along.

and I'm like, oh, I actually use that. I actually wear those. Those are super comfortable. And that's what we've got now. Folks, I can't even tell you how excited. I am that we got Bombas. Bombas socks super comfortable. They're designed-- they've got sports-specific tech-- running, cycling, hiking, or even when you're out there slogging. through the podcasting mines. The point is this.

They're the best. They're the best. And now, you can get them through this podcast. And by the way, it's not just socks. It's T-shirts, underwear, everything. that no one will ever see. They're the ones who make them--. super comfortable. Here's even the best part about Bombas. For every item you purchase, an essential clothing item. is donated to someone facing housing insecurity, a one-for-one model with over 200 million donations. and counting. And here's the thing. I don't know if you're a good person. You might not be a good person.

You might be a good person. Chances are you're like a normal person. But here you are doing something. You're buying socks, and you're helping the world. Beat that deal. You can't. Head over to bombas.com and use code weekly for 20%. off your purchase. That's bombas.com/weekly, code weekly at checkout. [MUSIC PLAYING].

BEN RHODES: The reality is that the damage done. to US facilities, military bases, and diplomatic facilities across the Gulf, and, I think, to these Gulf countries, is much worse than we know. We're not being given accurate battle. damage assessments from the Pentagon about our facilities. JON STEWART: Right. BEN RHODES: And the fact that these countries won't allow. people to even post pictures of what's gone on there. tells you something about the fact. that a lot of those Iranian drones. and some of those Iranian missiles got through.

We're talking on an order of billions and billions. of dollars of repairs that are going. to be needed, but also incalculable. damage to their economies. Because just take Qatar, the liquid natural gas field that. is the biggest in the world. Iran bombed that gas field that Qatar uses, took it offline. That's going to take years to get that up. and running, the entire infrastructure of it, in. a scenario where the war ends. And because that's offline, not only.

is Qatar taking an economic hit, but there are people that in the UK. that are sliding into poverty because they're. dependent on that gas for power. JON STEWART: Right. And it's going to create food shortages and all kinds. of different scenarios. BEN RHODES: Yes. JON STEWART: So have we-- is the up shot of this war. that we have created a new regional hegemon in Iran? And just out of curiosity, you know, Saudi Arabia buys billions and billions.

of dollars of the highest tech military equipment. that the United States can possibly produce. I understand we are their security guarantors, but have they unwrapped any of that shit? BEN RHODES: Yeah. JON STEWART: Do they gas it up, or did. they use it all on Yemen? You know, we sell-- we have military bases all over there. We sell them a ton of military hardware, the most sophisticated stuff in the world.

And then something finally happens in the region--. well, not something happened. Israel and the United States, you know, just decide to go on a bombing spree. Where are these guys? Why are they so passive? BEN RHODES: They do not like to get directly. into conflict with a country like Iran. for a number of reasons. If you're sitting in Saudi Arabia--. one of which is just-- yeah, their militaries. are designed to be plugged into ours,

to work off of our military. And, you know, they joined us in something. like the counter-ISIS campaign, when we're taking. out terrorist infrastructure. But Iran is a country of 94 million people. that is right across the body of water from them. And if you look at how Iran has conducted itself in this war, the most hawkish Gulf state is the UAE. JON STEWART: Yes. BEN RHODES: They're the ones that led the Abraham. Accords Alliance with Israel.

They're the ones that have been the most active in places. like Yemen, and Sudan, and Libya. JON STEWART: And have been apparently attacking Iran, you know, secretly for the past couple of months. BEN RHODES: Yeah, and here's the thing. If you look at who Iran has hit, they've hit all these Gulf states, but they've hit the UAE much more than anybody else. JON STEWART: Sure. Right. BEN RHODES: They could-- there's. a kind of quiet signaling that happens. between these countries, where the Saudis know. that Iran could do far more damage to their energy.

infrastructure. JON STEWART: Right. BEN RHODES: The Saudis are also not reliant on the Strait. of Hormuz to get its oil out, because it. has overland pipelines. And so I think what's happening, in part, is if the Saudis know that if they dive into this, the drones are going to rain down on their--. JON STEWART: Pipelines get hit. BEN RHODES: Exactly. Exactly. JON STEWART: But why are we so pissed off, then? We're so pissed off at, like, Sweden and Denmark. for not jumping in. You know, our NATO allies haven't in any way. stepped up to the plate, with Trump.

utterly misunderstanding what the NATO. alliance is apparently. BEN RHODES: Yes, a defensive alliance. JON STEWART: But the Gulf states don't jump in at all. And yet, there's been very little pressure. put on them to do so. There's only just the occasional leak. that says the Saudis complained when Trump wanted. to escort vessels out of the Strait of Hormuz, and so he stopped. BEN RHODES: Well, the cynic in me. might suggest that Sweden has not made a $2 billion. investment in Jared Kushner's investment fund.

JON STEWART: That's what Trump wants NATO to do, just. kick in some money to Kushner? BEN RHODES: Look, the Gulf states. have invested a lot in what Trump cares about, which is his businesses-- JON STEWART: Right, Trump. Right. BEN RHODES: --family businesses, his crypto. He got a new plane from the Qataris. The Emiratis kicked in a lot for his crypto venture. I think the reality is that the paradigm for these countries. for a long time has basically been, like, what they give us is money. And not just the direct payments.

to the Kushner and Trump and Witkoff families. Because remember, Steve Witkoff's kid is also. in on the crypto business. But also, they buy all this high-end military equipment. that you mentioned. Well, the implicit deal is kind of like that's. good for our economy, the defense. contractors in particular. They're buying tens of billions of dollars worth of planes. that they're not really going to use in a conflict. The kind of implicit thing is the Americans. are the security guarantor.

They're the ones that fight the wars. They're the ones that kind of intimidate our enemies. We're kind of paying into the deal. with the defense equipment we buy. and the other investments we make in the United States. And we're also going to spread some money around Trump. and his associates, too. And look, that model is going to be something everybody. looks at. I don't think necessarily that Iran is going to be a hegemon, because they've suffered, too. I mean, their economy is a mess. You know, their military capabilities. have been somewhat diminished. However, what they've kind of demonstrated.

is we're not a regime that you can come in and knock over. with your bombing campaigns. JON STEWART: Right. BEN RHODES: We are a country of 94 million people. We have not just a religious theocracy. We have a military dictatorship. That's the IRGC. JON STEWART: I think it's probably. more military dictatorship than religious theocracy. at this point. It's more IRGC and Basiji than it is Council of Mullahs. BEN RHODES: Yes, it is. And that's changed. In some ways, that could make the Iranian government more. dangerous, because the Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei.

was no good guy at all. But when you kill the 86-year-old Supreme Leader, you kill a guy named Larijani, who is also seen as a key. political operator behind the scenes, a guy that you. would have negotiated with. And you demonstrate that the only people that can stand up. to the Americans, control the Strait of Hormuz, and inflict this pain on their neighbors is the IRGC. Those are the ones that churn out the Shazad drones. The Basij militia that you mentioned. are the ones that terrorize the population to not rise up,

as Trump seemed to think they were going to do, because he called on them to do that. I think you leave behind a government. that is actually more--. I don't want to say radical, but more. militarized for certain in the IRGC. JON STEWART: And with more credibility. amongst its population. I mean, it's similar, in some ways, to what Israel's actions did for Hezbollah and for Hamas. By invading Lebanon, and disastrously so, you know,

and the Lebanese government being so divided and weakened, and Hezbollah standing up for the Lebanese people, they gave them--. their actions and hostilities gave those groups, which. are corrupt and murderous--. BEN RHODES: Yes. JON STEWART: --credibility amongst the people. We've done the opposite of what we were trying to do. BEN RHODES: That's right. I mean, I think Israel-- it seems like Trump, in part because he's not surrounded by expertise.

There's no process to make decisions. And in his first term, he had some experts. around who told him not to do things like this. But he seemed to believe that the regime would collapse. and there'd be some transition to something else. I think-- I find it hard to believe that the Israelis, given how much they understand about that region, actually believe that, you know, Reza Pahlavi, the son of the deposed shah. who's lived in Northern Virginia for decades,

is going to ride in on a white horse and usher in democracy. JON STEWART: Maybe they were going to bring. Chalabi back from Iraq. BEN RHODES: Yeah. JON STEWART: Maybe curveball could get it done. BEN RHODES: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think that they probably thought that the regime would. collapse and that you'd have kind. of a violent, chaotic situation like you kind of have. had in places like Lebanon. Which gives the Israeli government. more freedom of action, which diminishes Iran as a threat. JON STEWART: What do the Israelis believe? Like, as somebody who--. I'm assuming you've dealt with that administration.

Are they messianic? Are they controlled by--. I find it very hard to understand. their so-called strategy of security, especially given the way that they build settlements. I mean, if you're going to disarm Hamas and Hezbollah, don't you have to disarm your own settlers? Like, aren't they the ones creating havoc. in the occupied territories? And why would you even allow settlements if. your main concern is security? Surely settlements in no way-- you know, the amount of money.

and military you need to protect them. surely takes away from the security. So have they been lying the whole time? Is their aim the whole time Judea and Samaria? We're getting the whole thing. We're the chosen people. This is for us, and also, maybe a little piece of Syria. and a little piece of Lebanon. BEN RHODES: Yeah. JON STEWART: And, if you don't mind, I wouldn't mind the Sinai. Like, what are we dealing with?

BEN RHODES: Well, I mean, first of all, just. on your tactical point, one of the things. that happened on October 7 is the border with Gaza was less. defended, because a lot of the IDF was up in the West Bank. defending the settlers who were terrorizing the Palestinians. JON STEWART: Right. BEN RHODES: It does deter. Now, look, Israel is many things right. I mean, Yitzhak Rabin, would be agreeing with you. that we need to disarm these settlers.

and dismantle these settlements. JON STEWART: And we all know what happened there. BEN RHODES: Exactly, right? And so I think if you look at Israel today, there are different strains. Now, there are some-- the Ben-Gvir and Smotrich's, these are the more extreme ministers. in the Netanyahu government. But they're the finance minister. and national security minister, so not fringe characters. JON STEWART: Yeah, they're not marginalized figures. by any stretch of the imagination. BEN RHODES: They're not subtle. Time and again, we've heard them. say we want full annexation of the West Bank. We want to take Southern Lebanon. We want to take Southern Syria.

We want Gaza to be ethnically cleansed, and we want to settle that. That is a very real strain in Israeli politics. that has, frankly, been the ascendant strain. in Israeli politics. And a lot of Americans don't want to deal with that. They want to look at Israel and see. Golda Meir or Yitzhak Rabin. When you have Bibi Netanyahu running a government. with these people--. JON STEWART: And, by the way, Meir and Rabin, also a little more complicated as well when you. really dig into some of the attacks. that they were a part of--.

BEN RHODES: Oh, yeah. JON STEWART: --on Palestinian settlements. I mean, we have to be honest about what. the entire project entailed. BEN RHODES: And look, I think part of what we cannot look. away from is that the project clearly entails taking. the entirety of the West Bank. JON STEWART: Right. BEN RHODES: I mean, right now in Southern Lebanon, just to give you an example, too, they're not just ethnically cleansing the population. They are rendering it uninhabitable. They're destroying tens of thousands of olive trees.

You they're making it so people can't come back and live there. JON STEWART: That's right. BEN RHODES: And so some of this is just. pure territorial expansionism. Like, we want this additional land. And whether people live in the West Bank, or they live in Southern Syria, or they live. in Southern Lebanon or Gaza--. JON STEWART: And again, what is the claim? It's ours. How do you know that? There's this book. BEN RHODES: Yeah. JON STEWART: And if you really look into it, it says--. I mean, it's kind of insanity that we are not just.

allowing it but enabling it. BEN RHODES: Yes. Now, we are. It could not happen without us. JON STEWART: At all. BEN RHODES: And look, I think on Netanyahu--. Netanyahu, I think, is another piece of this. Number one, I think he's accepted a secure--. Israel used to want stability. We have a peace treaty with Jordan. We want a peace treaty with Egypt. It keeps a lid on things. Now, it seems like that's shifted. we want chaos and violence because it gives. us this freedom of action.

Like, there's a war in Iran. There's a war in Lebanon. Pay no attention to what the settlers. are doing in the West Bank. If none of this was happening, maybe there'd. be a little bit more international attention. on the fact that Palestinians are. being evicted from their homes, and some of them. are being killed. Like, land is being taken. JON STEWART: They're bombing the shit out of Lebanon. and Gaza in a ceasefire. BEN RHODES: In a ceasefire-- in a ceasefire. JON STEWART: OK. BEN RHODES: Beirut is getting bombed in a ceasefire. Aid is not getting into Gaza. And so I think Netanyahu has kind of fully shifted away.

from kind of playing between different sides to saying, all right, all bets are off. JON STEWART: But he did that a while ago. He did that--. BEN RHODES: Yeah. JON STEWART: That's been going on now for quite some time. BEN RHODES: But it's what allows him. to stay in power, you know? JON STEWART: Right. BEN RHODES: Because a permanent war, constant fear mongering about enemies--. JON STEWART: Sure. BEN RHODES: --compromises with these extremists. in his own government has allowed. him to become Israel's longest-serving prime minister. JON STEWART: And making sure Hamas is fully funded-- like,

this has been a double game for a very long time. BEN RHODES: Yeah. JON STEWART: And, unfortunately, I think it's cost them-- you know, forget about the moral high ground that. was dispensed with years ago--. the support of the world and, more importantly, the support of the United States. and support of the Jewish community. within the United States. No question. That's cost them. BEN RHODES: Well, yeah. Yeah, and look. The Hamas piece of this--. in the Obama years, you know, what I could not help.

but notice is he would relentlessly undermine, humiliate the Palestinian Authority, while he, at times, would empower Hamas. I mean, he did one deal where he gave Hamas 1,000. prisoners in exchange for one and really. elevated Hamas's stature. Well, that's because if he can point to the Palestinians. and say they're led by Hamas, he. doesn't have to have any pressure internationally. to do a peace deal. If he wanted a peace deal, he'd be trying to empower. the Palestinian Authority. But he never did that.

JON STEWART: Well, Sharon gave him a perfect chance. for a double blind study. If you say we're going to pull out of Gaza and Hamas--. that's the extremists, and we'll see what happens there. But the moderates in the West Bank, if they had worked with them, it's. a perfect double blind study. BEN RHODES: Yeah. JON STEWART: You say, well-- BEN RHODES: Yeah. JON STEWART: So you're showing the Palestinians that, oh, if you cooperate with us, and you have a more moderate. government, look how life improves, as opposed to what's going on in Gaza, where they're run by extremists and so life doesn't improve.

But then, they didn't improve lives in the West Bank. BEN RHODES: Right. JON STEWART: They didn't allow that to happen. So what the message is to the Palestinians. is you can't win no matter what the fuck you do. BEN RHODES: Yes, exactly. Because your life in the West Bank, where you've accepted Israel, recognizes its right. to exist, all those things. JON STEWART: Won't be any better anyway. BEN RHODES: You have checkpoints. You have humiliation. You might get your home destroyed. by-- burned by settlers, and then the IDF comes, and you get arrested, right? And I think what Americans have to reckon with,

because sometimes people say, well, why do you focus so much on this-- none of this. could happen without us. Like, we have provided--. I lost track of the billions of dollars-- their war machine. It's both financing, billions of dollars in assistance. that they get. JON STEWART: Right. BEN RHODES: But it's also arms sales. We tend to not sell weapons to governments. that commit war crimes as a matter. of American and international law. JON STEWART: Right. BEN RHODES: And we have completely. thrown that out the door since Netanyahu's.

launched these wars. JON STEWART: I love the idea that we tend not to. We don't like to draw these lines. BEN RHODES: Yeah, well, unfortunately, I have to say it that way. Yeah. [MUSIC PLAYING]. JON STEWART: I'm a cereal guy. But I've got to tell you. When you're a little older and not so easy to find, it's not as cute when you're going through the-- whatever. they call them, the stars, clovers and mushrooms, and being like, oh, right, but my cholesterol is 187.

Just saying-- cereal, not necessarily the best. thing for you anymore. Except now-- Magic Spoon. Magic Spoon, it gives you that feeling, Saturday morning. cereal while you get their 13 grams of protein, 0 sugar, 5 grams of net carbs per serving, which is how I always chose my cereals. When I was younger, I used to say to my mother. growing up, how many--. what's my net carbs here, 5 grams?

7 grams? What are we-- what are we dealing with? But this stuff, Magic Spoon, keeps you fueled. Whether it's breakfast, late-night snack, post workout, whatever it is, they've got flavors, too. It's not just one thing. You've got fruity, frosted cocoa, cinnamon crunch, marshmallow, s'mores, all the stuff. that you love. Magic Spoon-- look for Magic Spoon on Amazon. or at your nearest grocery store. There are plant-based versions of the cereal as well. Even vegans can feel like they had a chow. You'll find vegan options at Whole Foods.

Or get $5 off your next order at MagicSpoon.com/TWS. That's MagicSpoon.com/TWS for $5 off. [MUSIC PLAYING]. Ben, I'm curious. You've been in these rooms, obviously, where all the ramifications and wargaming happens. And I'm curious if you could take us through some. of the mechanics of it. It's a very complicated world, because what I want to get into.

is the idea of what strategies are still available to us? Because we've tried everything. We've tried invading countries and staying there. as their security net until they can rebuild a more. stable and Democratic society. We've tried bombing the shit out of them from the air, until such chaos ensues that there is a coup, and that ends up with warlordism. Or we've tried sanctioning to the point.

where the citizens themselves are suffering, but we entrench--. I want to-- walk us through a little bit of the kind. of grounding and foundation of American foreign policy that--. what options-- what can we do anymore? Is it still our hubris that is creating all. these difficult situations? Do you understand where I'm going with this? BEN RHODES: I do understand where you're going,

and I want to get us to why I think we need to completely. dismantle a bunch of the infrastructure. of American foreign policy. JON STEWART: All right, let's go. BEN RHODES: Because that's the only way to change things. But to get there first, I think what you have to realize. is the United States government is a massive machine. And for well over 20 years since 9/11, we've been building infrastructure to kill people. and bomb people and spy on people across a vast swath.

of territory that runs through North Africa, the Middle East, and into South Asia. and Afghanistan and Pakistan. And one of the things that happens. is when you build that kind of infrastructure of bases, of intelligence platforms, of Special Forces, you're constantly seeing enemies, right? Look, these guys in Somalia, they. just gained some territory. We'd better go after them. Or there's some bad guy that just popped up in Mali. We have to deal with him. Or lo and behold, Netanyahu comes and says,

look, you've got the table all set. here to encircle the Iranians and deliver a blow at them. The problem is you build this massive machinery, it becomes kind of self-sustaining. You can find a thread anywhere, or all. it takes is apparently Donald Trump waking. up with the wrong idea in his head. and starting a war in Iran. And I think we just have to stop, right? Like, this is-- nobody wants this. Americans don't want to pay for this.

The people in these countries are tired of violence. The war on terror has created the refugee crisis. Tens of millions of people displaced in the wake. of American violence-- that's radicalized European politics. to the far right. JON STEWART: Yeah. BEN RHODES: I mean, and the machinery came home. because we had the equipment. What do you think ICE--. why do they look so scary? Because the equipment that we use in wars. we bring home and give to police forces at ICE. And suddenly, you've got armored vehicles, and dudes.

in body armor, and some of those guys in ICE. were trained in counterinsurgency tactics. in Baghdad, and then they're doing them in Minneapolis. Like, this is what the entire edifice of the war on. terror is. And I actually don't think--. and if I fault, you know, my administration, we tried to rein it in, and bring some of the troops home, and follow the law more to the letter. I think it's time to just say we.

need to just stop doing this. And guess what? We would save tens and tens of billions of dollars. We could focus on other things. And if people say, well, Ben, what. about the terrorist threat, you know what? I think we can deal with it without fighting wars. Like, 9/11 happened. You and I are New Yorkers. Like, it was horrible. I witnessed 9/11. I started this career because of it. I think we can prevent a catastrophic attack like that. without having this sprawling edifice.

that defines our foreign policy and keeps. getting us into these wars. JON STEWART: Well, you also have a situation where there is. no battle you could fight and win. that would prevent 19 people who've gathered in some rooms. from plotting harm to something. There has to be a reasonable standard of risk. that, unfortunately, we do our best to mitigate. But at a certain point, you cannot, as you said earlier, bomb your way out of not just a nuclear threat,

but of really any threat. That's seems to be the posture. BEN RHODES: Yeah, and look. Occasionally I'm sure there might. be some terrorist training camp that. raises sufficient alarm bells that you. might have to do something. I'm not suggesting that we're in a world of pacifism. I am suggesting, though, that--. and the legal authorization, the authorization. to use military force for all these counterterrorism. activities, is still in place from 2002. End that.

And if the president needs to take action. against some terrorist cell, make him go back to Congress. and make a case again. Like, bring a bunch of this infrastructure home. JON STEWART: It almost strikes me as--. Jon Kerry in 2004, when he was running against George W. Bush, he had a vision for Special Forces. being-- that the idea would be let's lower our footprint. and use targeted special forces when we. need to disrupt certain plots. But let's remove this idea of America.

as being able to control as opposed--. and he was ridiculed for that. BEN RHODES: Yeah. Bush told them that was a law enforcement approach. JON STEWART: Right. BEN RHODES: And them remember, Jon, the last ad. of the 2004 campaign, they were some wolves. in a forest or something. And that was supposed to scare us. JON STEWART: Yeah, the Dick Cheney. BEN RHODES: Yeah. Yeah. But here's the thing. And this is where I lose patience with Democrats. We act like the politics are frozen in time. from that Jon Kerry election. I mean, when in fact, Americans have been telling us--.

Barack Obama ran in 08 as an anti-war candidate. He ran in 2012 as the more dovish. candidate to Mitt Romney. Donald Trump ran as the person who was going to keep. us out of forever wars. Like, Americans keep trying to elect. leaders who will stop doing this, and then the leaders keep doing it. And Trump's done it on steroids, and it hasn't worked. JON STEWART: So talk to me about why that is. Because, all right, so let's go through. You know, I think we all understand that Trump--.

even George W. Bush tried to build a coalition to do that. And Trump certainly is making these decisions seemingly more. impulsively and with less planning and with less. ideas of how to get out. But let's go through-- so Barack Obama is. surrounded by experts, right? You're wargaming all these different things. But he's still making those same decisions. that-- let's go through Libya.

So Libya has, I guess, terror cells, and we think Gaddafi's, obviously, a bad actor. But Gaddafi says, OK, I get it. I'm not going to try for nuclear weapons. I apologize. I was a bad guy. Let me put on my sarong or whatever it is that he wears. that make him his captain. And we still end up utterly screwing the pooch on that one.

BEN RHODES: Yeah, we did, JON STEWART: So talk about then--. because we keep saying, why does America keep. getting into these situations? So how did we get into that situation? BEN RHODES: Libya was, interestingly, a different situation that highlights a different problem. in American foreign policy. JON STEWART: OK. BEN RHODES: It was not about terrorism. People may not remember-- and again, I. think it was a mistake, so I agree with the premise. of the question. But to explain it, it's the Arab Spring.

There are these uprisings. People seem like they're trying to throw off authoritarianism. They want a future of democracy. In Libya, this becomes a ground zero for the Arab Spring. And different parts of Libya rise. up sufficiently that, essentially, the government lost control. Benghazi is actually a city. It's not a scandal. It's actually a city of several hundred thousand people, and it was the center of opposition to Gaddafi. And so that city essentially threw off the regime,

and then Gaddafi massed an army and was. marching on Benghazi to basically crush his opposition. So there's nothing about terrorism or anything. It's just like this bad guy who's kind of been an adversary. of the United States, and we know. what he does to his enemies. He tends to kill them-- is going. and there's going to be a bloodbath in this place, and we should stop it. And I actually think the Europeans, they were the most gung ho about this, the French. and British, in part, because they'd really let Gaddafi. in from the cold, and they'd done all kinds of deals.

with him. I think Nicolas Sarkozy, the president of France, ended up going to prison because. of some of his own dealings with Gaddafi. And so the idea is, well, this could be. a humanitarian intervention. We can all get together, pass a UN Security Council resolution. so it would be legal under international law. authorizing the use of force. And NATO's going to go in and stop Gaddafi. outside of the gates of Benghazi, save the people in that city. The problem is twofold. One, once we did that, it was like, well, we can't leave him in power.

He's a terrible guy. And so we went down this slippery slope of we're. not just stopping him there. We're essentially going to keep this up until the Libyans. oust him. But I think the main lesson, Jon, is that whether it's the terrorism issue we've talked. about, the nuclear issue we've talked about, or this kind of issue, where it's the politics in a country, we cannot engineer those politics. through bombing campaigns and through our military. It doesn't work. There's not a record of a regime change supported.

by the United States through military force. that made a place better. And so I think what we have had trouble coming to terms with is. we like to think-- and a lot of people, frankly, that work in foreign policy, they sit in Washington. and like to think that they can move some pieces. around a board, and sanction these people, and they'll do something-- or bomb these people. and they'll do something. That's the mindset that has failed. I'd like to introduce sanction to this conversation. The most heavily sanctioned countries in the world.

by the United States in the 21st century have been Cuba, Iran, North Korea, Russia, and those-- has that worked? Are those places better? JON STEWART: I think we're all friends now, aren't we? We are. BEN RHODES: Yeah, and their governments. are less-- the governments are more repressive. and more adversarial to us. So I think we should be open to radically different approaches, where you might look at Iran and say, you. know what might work better? And again, this will be really controversial. I just want to try to stretch the conversation here--.

might be better to lift sanctions on these people, because putting sanctions on this government. has made it more repressive-- JON STEWART: Right. BEN RHODES: --has empowered the Iranian Revolutionary Guard. Corps that knows how to trade on the black market. and have revenue. It's Iranian people that get screwed. And so this is connected to Libya, because it's just this--. it's that fallacy that we can engineer. the politics of other countries because we're America. Better to do that over time by setting an example, and following international law, and trading, and conducting diplomacy,

the ways that most countries try. to influence other countries. That tends to work better. But America gets impatient, and we're like, we don't like what you did. We're going to sanction you or bomb you. And there's just not a track record of that working. JON STEWART: Do we get impatient, or are we arrogant? Because you just said influence. But what we do is we try and control. And the way we control is almost. entirely through military. You know, China's developed Belt and Road,

and they'll go in. And I'm not saying they're not as. exploitative as the next guy, but at least somebody. gets a road out of it. We go in and give whatever repressive governments. of Africa need weaponry and let them just. do what they will with it. My question to you is there must be something. in the process that continually leads us to the same result. So we keep talking about, look, we war game these things out,

and we all sit around. But there must be something in that process that removes. the barriers to action. Because Barack Obama bombed Libya. That's what he did. And Gaddafi was decapitated, taken out, and it created a warlord situation.

We armed rebel armies, oftentimes Islamist armies, in Syria. That was the methodology there. That's how we were going to deal with Assad. Crimea-- | just went in and took Crimea, and we sanctioned. BEN RHODES: But to be honest--. but here's where we've got to be honest about Crimea, too. JON STEWART: Yeah. BEN RHODES: Because sometimes people--. it was interesting because people didn't like Libya.

because we intervened there, but then didn't like. our Syrian policy because we didn't intervene there, and thought that we should have done something to stop Crimea. And it's that Crimea piece that is--. I would always tell people, how were we going to stop them? Do you want to go to war with Russia over that, you know? And by the way, by the time we learned that it had happened, it had happened. I say that because part of it is accepting.

the limitations of control, that sometimes bad. things happen in the world. JON STEWART: Say that again. Say that again. BEN RHODES: Yeah. JON STEWART: Say that again. BEN RHODES: We need to accept limitations. that we can control events. And to actually-- to get your question. about why you're not stopped--. JON STEWART: Yes. BEN RHODES: Libya is an interesting example, because there's a way that we might be able to stop this. JON STEWART: OK. BEN RHODES: In Libya, we actually got the UN.

Security Council resolution. We did not get an authorization from Congress. And interestingly, when Obama was under pressure. and, frankly, had inclined himself to bomb Syria. after a chemical weapons attack in 2013, the infamous Red. Line incident--. JON STEWART: Right. BEN RHODES: --what he did is he went to Congress and said, OK, if you wanted me to do this, you need to authorize it, because that's what the Constitution says. And Congress would not vote to authorize it. Marco Rubio, right, who had been castigating Obama.

for his weakness and passivity and not attacking Assad, came out and said he would vote against. Congressional authorization. Because members of Congress know that war is ultimately. unpopular, because it costs money, it can cost American lives, and it's just bad. I think you don't have to be an expert to know that war is bad. And so the way you stop it is you insist. that there will not be a war without. Congressional authorization. And if there is, the president will be impeached.

Which is, by the way, what's in the Constitution and implicit. in the War Powers Act passed by Congress. Because if presidents had to ask for permission. from the people's elected representatives. before every use of military force, we would use it a lot less. Frankly, the founders left it. It's right there in front of our eyes, Jon. There'd be no war in Iran if Trump. needed a vote from Congress before he bombed Iran. If we just followed the law the way that the founders intended,

they were pretty smart, those guys. We wouldn't be doing this. [MUSIC PLAYING]. JON STEWART: If you like keeping your money, you've got to look at your cell phone bill. We've all got our cell phone bills. If you like to talk on the phone, and the thing gets jacked up, it's. always getting going there. Well, Mint Mobile the perfect solution. for these overpriced plans. These big wireless carriers have. made a fortune off high bills, bogus fees, complicated contracts.

I think they charged me for food. I don't even know what they're doing. I don't even know what's going on in my bill. Mint Mobile is here to rescue with premium plans. starting at $15 a month. It doesn't get any better. What are they, going to pay you? No, $15 a month is nothing. All plans come with high speed data, unlimited talk and text, delivered. on the nation's largest 5G network. You think you're on the largest 5G network?

You're not. It's Mint Mobile. Get on it. If you like your money, Mint Mobile is for you. Shop plans at MintMobile.com/TWS. That's MintMobile.com/TWS. [MUSIC PLAYING]. But that can't be the discussion. in the situation room. BEN RHODES: No, it's not. JON STEWART: I can't imagine that that's in any way. the discussion in the situation room--. in the situation room. Because America has proffered these interventions,

whether it be through military or through covert action. Look, Iran is a perfect example. The whole reason we got in this situation in the first place. is we enabled a coup in Iran in 1953. And so then we installed a dictator, and that's kind of got the ball rolling. And we've done that throughout Central. America, and South America, and all kinds of other places.

It seems like absolute power corrupts absolutely, and that anybody who sits in that chair suddenly. finds the desire to pull strings. around the world in a way that I think maybe. is a post-World War II-- maybe we got the wrong message. from World War II, that we can control the world. and then just rebuild it through a little Marshall Plan. And so we're a lot more in control of events.

than we actually are. BEN RHODES: That's right. I think look. I think we have to come to terms with the fact. that we have an empire. We've been acting as if we do. Because if I talk to some friends from other places--. I have a lot of friends from Afghanistan, and what they say to me this is what you want. This is what empires do. They break things on the periphery. They keep the rest of the world violent and chaotic.

so that you can dominate things. And so in some ways, what looked like messy outcomes. to us--. oh, all these countries are such a mess--. that is how empires tend to operate. We have our core, and our core has been. Europe and parts of East Asia. And then, if everything else is kind of a mess, that implicitly advantages us. It certainly advantages fossil fuel companies, and arms. dealers, and people who do finance capitalism,

where they sit around and just bet on currencies on computer. screens all day to enrich themselves, while everything costs more for the American working class. It's not the intention. And what I would always have to explain to friends of mine. like this is I was never in a meeting where people were like, let's create chaos today in the world. You know, people were well intentioned. It was like, well, let's try to train these security forces, and let's try to have the recipe for stability over here.

Or even let's intervene in Libya. to try to prevent a massacre and support. the forces of democracy there. But the reality is the machine functions like an empire, and an empire tends to create chaos along its periphery. And to your point, Jon, I think everybody's sick of it. Americans are sick of paying for it. I talked to Graham Platner recently, and he said, look. You don't have to be a genius politician. to know that saying to people, hey, we should spend less money on bombs.

and more on schools and hospitals. is a winning message, right, left, or center. Americans are sick of it. People around the world are sick of it. Now they're kind of scared of the insane person that. is running this whole edifice. And is Greenland next? Is Panama next? Is Canada next? And it's to your point, it's like someone. needs to put an arm around us and. say, you don't control things. Like, come sit over here. Let me talk to you about the fact.

that you need to invest in education in your country. Like you need--. I think we're at that point. JON STEWART: But these are the kind of messaging-- you know, we talk about it all the time, that you never. go wrong with a message of let's take that money. and focus it on the American people. But the truth is, that's not how it works out. And there's never been an NDAA that got shot down, and now they're going for another $500 billion. off of a $1 trillion budget that's already. 10 times what all the other countries. spend on military combined. Because for some reason, in the heart and soul.

of the American people, we believe. that we are the most endangered country. in the world that has to have the most military in the world. And so I want to address, like some of the contradictions. that occur in all that. Like I'm always of the impression. that for business, stability and certainty. is the greatest asset that they can have, whether it be volatile tariff policy. or whether it be chaos in certain markets and things.

It feels like the result of our search for security. is instability because of our cavalier attitude. about what those interventions regarding security do. You made the point earlier that I. thought was the perfect point. Our interventions in the Middle East. created a migration crisis that actually. creates instability and political unrest in Europe.

BEN RHODES: Yes. JON STEWART: And so when you're in those rooms, and these questions come up, does anyone say this is. going to create instability? Or do they all go, I get it. There will be instability, and it's going to cost a lot. of money, but it's worth it. It's always worth it. BEN RHODES: Yeah. JON STEWART: Because action is better than inaction.

BEN RHODES: I think that-- so in the room--. JON STEWART: Yeah. BEN RHODES: --I think that the problem is that people become. fixated on finding some formula to deal with a problem. without seeing the whole picture, in the sense of-- we're talking about Syria. today in the situation room. What are our levers--. sanctions, or arming the opposition, or bombing them, or.

diplomacy with the Russians? And everybody's kind of hyperfocused on this country. as if it's something that we control, or if we pull the right levers, x will happen and lead to y. And again, what is absent is why are. we talking about this at all? Like, why do we think we can control what happens in Syria? And that if we do these actions,

it's going to cause all these second order effects, like a migration crisis. Now, the pressure at the time, Jon, is why isn't Obama doing anything about Syria? People are being killed there. This is horrible. He's weak. He's not standing up to Assad, you know? And so then, it becomes there's a pressure to do something. Like in American politics, not American people-- and this. is where I would actually challenge Democrats. to get a spine on this stuff. It's this weird mix of the pundit class, and the think.

tank world, and this--. I called it the blob, but this kind of discourse. in Washington demands that you solve Syria, you know? And so then you start pulling the levers. that you think will make-- and what are those levers doing? They're making it more violent. And then there's refugees flowing into Europe, and then we'd better get a plan to deal with Erdogan. to host these refugees. And then the Europeans are paying him,

and you're constantly-- you're chasing your own foreign policy. around the map. And if you look at Iran--. and this is what's so insane and, I think, where we have to not let Trump off the hook on this thing--. is let's say he gets the dust out. And he's unleashed chaos on a global scale and instability. on a global scale. And what worries me in my darkest moments, Jon, is that the stock market's gone up.

Maybe the reason this keeps happening. is because the people that are actually powerful. are insulated from the instability, right? JON STEWART: Always. BEN RHODES: Because they're trading currencies--. JON STEWART: Always. BEN RHODES: --and they're trading oil futures. JON STEWART: Right. BEN RHODES: And so if financial capitalism. can run, if the arms dealers can make their profits, if AIPAC is happy because Israel wanted this war--. and it's multiple powerful interests here, you know? So it's actually two. The Tucker version that this is just AIPAC--. kind of ignores the capitalism part, and the arms dealer part,

and the fossil fuel companies part. But it's all these powerful interests. that finance our politics that benefit from the instability, while literally everybody else in the world. is getting screwed. JON STEWART: And a media that demands action and doesn't--. BEN RHODES: Yes. JON STEWART: It never holds itself. accountable for the results of the things. that it, too, created the momentum for. But you would expect our political leaders. to be able to resist narrative momentum as opposed to actual,

you know, issues there. So all of those elements combine. to push us towards that action is somehow. always better than inaction, which. creates all these downstream chaotic kinds of effects. BEN RHODES: I had to-- that's so right, and you've been on this better than anyone. But I had a friend in Europe once. explain something to me that was, I thought,

really interesting. Which is you Americans are crazy, and there are a lot of reasons why. And one of them is, like, if a bad thing happens in the world, right-- JON STEWART: Yeah. BEN RHODES: I think this was around like 2013--. like, pick any one of these countries. In our media, there's like five paragraphs. that describe the bad thing that happened. and why it happened. And then by paragraph six, it's like, you. know, what could we possibly perhaps. do to help address this issue? In America, it's like, bad thing happened.

Where's Obama? JON STEWART: Right. BEN RHODES: This kind of bizarre--. and again, this really is the media. And I don't fully understand why. I mean, I remember in Libya, you know, Jake Tapper yelling. in the briefing room, like, how many. more have to die before you put in place a no fly zone? And we did. But I remember thinking, like, I'm. glad he cares about the people of Libya today, you know?

But it's a strange impulse that the media thinks its job is. to hold the president accountable for every bad thing. that's happening in the world. And I know I'm sounding sour grapes here. I'm not, because I actually think. this is a structural problem. This is not an Obama issue or even a Trump issue. Why is it that we insist that our presidents--. I think this may be a post-World War II, a Cold War kind of fear thing, where it's like, why do we.

insist that our presidents--. I mean, there's another thing Plattner told me. Like, there's literally kind of a commander in chief test where. you have to show that you're willing to bomb civilians to be. credible or something, you know, that if you don't-- today's the day. you became president because you. bombed a country or something. I think we have to fundamentally change. our foreign policy, but we can't. do that unless we shift this presumption that we.

are in control of events. JON STEWART: Well, it's an arrogance, I think. There's a primacy that we are the leader of the free world, but the only one that could possibly accomplish it. But on the flip side of that, the President of the United. States should not be able to be bullied by Jake Tapper or any. of the news organizations. BEN RHODES: Yeah, I agree. JON STEWART: And look, here's what it should be. The American-- the bar for intervention. in foreign countries, militarily and otherwise,

should be the same as the bar to release the Epstein files. Like, if they can hold off on that, then surely they can hold the line on bombing. BEN RHODES: On dumb wars. JON STEWART: On dumb wars and all these other countries. But everybody talks about it all the time. And yet, the military budgets continue to go. up, and continue to soar. And our military interventionism, or our covert interventionism, continues to expand.

And I'm not even arguing an idea of let's pretend. the rest of the world doesn't exist. BEN RHODES: Quite the opposite. Let's engage the rest of the world like grownups. Let's trade with them, and have diplomacy with them, and fight climate change with them, and regulate artificial intelligence with them-- like, the opposite of isolationism. Let's actually rejoin the world, you know, as a normal place. JON STEWART: And that's not giving them control over what. we do, but it's very clear that our current strategy,

a strategy that we've been, I think, pushing now for, as you. said, more than two or three decades, is an engine of instability and chaos. that makes the entire world more volatile. and then, ultimately, Americans less safe. And now, we're caught in that battle of, well, if we're less safe, then I. guess we've got to increase our defense budget. And now we're in the cycle. BEN RHODES: Yeah, and we've spent $6 trillion-- $6 trillion.

on the War on Terror. Like, imagine what that could have paid for, just. a fraction of that. JON STEWART: Mind boggling. And what have we got? And it is maybe the largest overreaction. in the history of military. And I say that as a New Yorker, the idea. that we went into two countries. Like, think of how many more people. we ourselves kill as Americans with gun violence every year? And we don't do shit about that. BEN RHODES: Yeah. JON STEWART: So, I mean, that's the part that's just--.

BEN RHODES: I think people are ready to hear this, you know, in a way--. I mean, to show a little grace to my former boss, like--. JON STEWART: Yeah, yeah. BEN RHODES: --the politics around 2009. were still kind of hyper--. zero tolerance of terrorists. I remember the guy--. I remember when the guy tried to light his underpants. on fire on a plane. JON STEWART: Sure. BEN RHODES: I remember, like, I got the call. It was Christmas, and this guy gets on a plane. He tries to light something on fire,

and basically, all he succeeds in doing. is lighting that part of his body on fire. Nobody's hurt. JON STEWART: Well, it is a wick, you know, for many people. BEN RHODES: Yeah. I remember getting the call and hearing, OK, well, great. Like, I'm glad that didn't happen. And it was like a five-alarm fire for weeks of, like, the Christmas Day bomber. And how did he get on that plane? And ah, we're afraid. And I think now, people are ready to hear, like, you know what? Guys, if-- we have to be able to live with a little bit.

more risk on the terrorism front and not spend $6 trillion. and create chaos around the world. JON STEWART: Right. Somebody-- I think they're looking. for effective deterrence, but not this kind. of all-encompassing Skynet deterrence. that costs a lot of money, doesn't appear to be as. effective anyway, and creates collateral damage. in all kinds of other areas. BEN RHODES: Yes. And I think people are ready for somebody.

to show up and talk to them like a grown up. JON STEWART: Boy, that's be nice. BEN RHODES: And I think part of what--. and the Democrats, too, because they have this thing that they. do-- not all of them. But even when this war started, and was so clearly dumb, and it was so clearly illegal-- but they. got a throat clear for several paragraphs about how. horrible the Iranian regime is, and they must be dealt with, but not this way. JON STEWART: Right. BEN RHODES: And let's just take--. it's not that they're not horrible. They are, but you're kind of feeding the beast. JON STEWART: Well, that's the problem not only are.

they horrible, but we do deals with horrible people. all the time. BEN RHODES: Yeah. JON STEWART: Like, the Iranians are horrible. BEN RHODES: We have horrible people. JON STEWART: But I'm going to sponsor the Saudi. Arabian golf tournament. BEN RHODES: Exactly. Exactly. JON STEWART: OK, sure. BEN RHODES: Exactly. JON STEWART: Ben, what is your-- you're also--. didn't you just write a book? BEN RHODES: I did. I did. It's coming out on May 26, so we're in the two-week window. I basically wanted to understand the intensity. and existential feeling of the argument we're having.

in this country right now politically by going all. the way back to the beginning. And through 15 speeches, I tell the story. of essentially the argument we've been having. about American identity. And the shorthand is it starts with Benjamin Franklin. at the Constitutional Convention. basically giving a speech in which he doesn't. even mention the Constitution. He just defends the virtue of compromise. And on the one hand, that was what. allowed us to form a union. On the other hand, we compromised. about some pretty big things.

JON STEWART: Yes, like the biggest. BEN RHODES: Like who is an American. and who gets to decide that. And basically, by looking at this mix of people you know. like Abraham Lincoln, or Martin Luther King "I Have a Dream,". or people you don't know, like an abolitionist or the vice. president of the Confederacy or a Kansas populist, I wanted to trace how this argument has taken different. forms all the way until today. And I definitely learned a lot and had. a lot of fun on the journey of writing this. JON STEWART: Man, is that up my alley.

I have to tell you, like, not to kiss your ass, but, like, that's the kind of thing I would--. I love that sort of thing. The thing I would ask you is-- because what I feel like I've. noticed is our ability for argumentation. has utterly diminished. BEN RHODES: Yes. Yes. JON STEWART: The manner-- when I watch news programs from. the 1960s and '70s, I am stunned at the level of, quite. frankly, honest discussion that has. occurred in the way that people used to talk to each other.

BEN RHODES: So this is really important, because part of what's happened is Americans used. to give speeches that were reprinted in newspapers, and they really favored argument. And then there was a speaker circuit. That's what people like Frederick Douglass. were on, where they traveled the country. and gave these speeches days on end. Then there was radio, and that favored. the kind of clear explanation of an FDR. Then there was television, and you. had the kind of charisma and spectacle. of a King or a Kennedy. Part of what's happened to us is because the internet has. created infinite attention--.

you know, competition for attention--. because social media has kind of polarized us. in these algorithmically-designed. tribes, we can't make or listen to an argument. All the information we receive is. in bite-sized pieces that are meant to make us angry, or fearful, or energized. When's the last time you listened to an entire speech. delivered by a politician? JON STEWART: Yeah. BEN RHODES: And the fact that that sounds quaint I think. shows that we kind of might need that again.

Because speeches-- in writing this book, I realized how much-- imagine American history without. speeches, without Lincoln's second inaugural or King's "I. Have a Dream," or Reagan's "Time. for Choosing," or Obama's speech. to the Democratic Convention. Reagan and Obama were impossible without speeches. That's where-- that's where we tell stories about who we are. and where we're going. And I think part of why our politics is so disorienting. right now-- and I really didn't realize. until writing this book-- is that we've lost that.

And when you lose that ability to make an argument, your argument gets poorer, because you're not trying. to persuade anybody anymore. You're just talking to the people. that already agree with you. And you don't listen, because, like, you never have to sit. and actually absorb ideas. JON STEWART: Right. BEN RHODES: And so I think actually. part of what we need is the storytelling. that comes through speeches. JON STEWART: And even argument now. is reduced to Jubilee sessions, where you sit, and, like, 20 people raise flags,

and run in, and hit you with the one sentence. that's going to own you. BEN RHODES: Yes, the viral moment. JON STEWART: And yeah, we've lost any ability to--. well, I can't wait to read it. And I really appreciate you being here. As always, a fascinating conversation. Ben Rhodes, he's author of the upcoming book. All We Say, writer, political commentator, and, obviously, national security analyst, co-host of Pod Save the World. Thanks a lot, man. I really appreciate it. BEN RHODES: Thanks, Jon. Let's go, Knicks. JON STEWART: Let's go, Knicks.

[MUSIC PLAYING]. Hello. First, I just want to say, for the people at home, Lauren was unable to join us for today. She'll be back obviously for her next one. But guys, whenever I'm talking to somebody who's. been in the room--. I don't want to go all Hamilton on you guys. GILLIAN SPEAR: The room where it occurs? JON STEWART: No, thank you. It's harder to rhyme, but OK. That's fine.

I'm always struck by that, where, like, the conventional wisdom is always like, yeah, we've been doing this wrong forever, and we shouldn't be doing that, and we shouldn't be doing this. And, like, so in the room, does anyone go, I have a question. Should we even be doing this? GILLIAN SPEAR: There are a bunch of girls being like, I can fix him. [LAUGHTER]. JON STEWART: Is that what our foreign policy has become? GILLIAN SPEAR: It's going to be different for me. JON STEWART: I'm drawn to Iran. Iran is the bad boy, but it'll be different when I bomb it.

GILLIAN SPEAR: I can change him. Yes. JON STEWART: Oh, dear Lord. Maybe that is it. Maybe we start to realize, like, maybe. Iran's just not that into us, and we have to back away. GILLIAN SPEAR: But I do think it's a really important. conversation to be having of what a more progressive. foreign policy can look like. Because it feels like we really gave this version a go. And Trump came up, and he was America first. We thought it was going to be different.

But here we are, back to square one of intervention. in the Middle East. JON STEWART: It really does feel. like that if you have those buttons that you can push, you ultimately end up pushing them, the siren song. The thing that I was trying to get at. is we've pushed every fucking button on the remote, and none of them work. GILLIAN SPEAR: And the point that Ben made about sanctions. JON STEWART: Right.

GILLIAN SPEAR: The countries that we have sanctioned. are some of the worst actors in the world right now. And all we've done is entrench these really bad regimes. and made life worse for the people of these countries. JON STEWART: Bars. Bars. GILLIAN SPEAR: Unfortunately. JON STEWART: Unfortunately. So we're exhausting all those. And then the one thing we did do that seemingly. had a stabilizing effect, which was. sending AIDS drugs to children in Africa,

that's the one thing-- GILLIAN SPEAR: Fuck that. Yeah. JON STEWART: Yeah, fuck that. That we can't do. GILLIAN SPEAR: No more freebies for you all. JON STEWART: That's where the real corruption is, that $10 million we spent on iodine to put in so people. don't get rickets anymore or whatever. GILLIAN SPEAR: Too far, yeah. JON STEWART: That's the thing we've got to do. But give me 500 more million dollars. so I can hire my son's drone company. to work at the Pentagon. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: We got monies for that.

GILLIAN SPEAR: We'll let China build the roads, and we'll just go ahead and bomb them. JON STEWART: You know what? Maybe that's the game. Gillian, is that the game? China builds the roads. We bomb them. They have to go back and build them. We get a kickback. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah. JON STEWART: Maybe we're playing a two-man game. with China right now. Gillian. GILLIAN SPEAR: We're keeping them. busy while we do other stuff. JON STEWART: Now you're in that four. or five dimensional chess area that I. hadn't considered before--. very, very, very interesting.

Brittany, what do the kids want for this week? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: All right, we've got. three questions for you today. JON STEWART: All right, let's bring them. Let's bring them. We bring out our stick. Whenever we have the questions, we bring out our stick. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: The tough tongue. Jon, you can only make one media bet on DraftKings. Would you bet on Barry Wise or Stephen Colbert? JON STEWART: Oh, come on. GILLIAN SPEAR: That's like the Knicks versus Sixers. I mean--. JON STEWART: No, that's like-- that's. like the Harlem Globetrotters versus the Washington Generals. Like, that's not even modern NBA competition.

That's old-school classic king v. clown. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Oh. JON STEWART: So yeah, Colbert is a generational broadcaster, talented in so many different dimensions, a lovely human being, not chasing some outdated kind. of, I don't know, preconceived notion of centrism.

or whatever the fuck it is that they're doing over. there, and meanwhile, just nodding to-- no, that's not. even-- although, to be fair, Stephen also would have. fired everybody at 60 Minutes. Not out of ideology--. pure vengeance and spite. GILLIAN SPEAR: I always got that vibe from him. Yeah. JON STEWART: Bet on Colbert all day long, baby-- all day long. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Sweet. All right, next up, Jon, have you. ever wanted to 86 something, you know, in restaurant terms?

JON STEWART: I've 86'd things. You know how many Mexican restaurants I worked in? Do you how many times I've had to 86. either the guacamole or shrimp quesadilla. because we run out of-- you know, which, by the way, shrimp quesadilla? Do we really need to shrimp everything in this country? GILLIAN SPEAR: Cheese and fish? We're not doing that. JON STEWART: No. Shrimp quesadilla? No. Have you guys worked in restaurants? GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah, I still get nightmares.

BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: No. JON STEWART: Brittany, you've never worked in a restaurant? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: No, I was a retail gal. JON STEWART: Really. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. JON STEWART: Have you ever been fired? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: No. JON STEWART: You've never been? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Are you firing me right now? JON STEWART: No. No. Although, wouldn't that have been. a really cool way to do it? If you're going to do it--. GILLIAN SPEAR: He's going to 86 Brittany on this episode. JON STEWART: Have you ever been fired? No. Well, today's your lucky day. You've been 86'd.

Gillian, did you work retail? GILLIAN SPEAR: No, I worked in--. I worked restaurants, coffee shops. I still-- do you still get the nightmares? I get nightmares where I'm just working all night, and you have, like, tables asking for things. to get sent back. You're, like, behind. I don't know if those will ever go away. JON STEWART: I don't think people understand. And there is a whole lingo of, like, behind. I'm in the weeds. You've got to 86 that. Like, it's all-- you've got to marry these ketchups. GILLIAN SPEAR: I still say--. I say behind any time I walk by somebody. Behind. JON STEWART: Behind.

Behind. Hold on. Or coming out of the kitchen. GILLIAN SPEAR: Corner. JON STEWART: Right, corner, behind. I find now that whenever ketchup is running out, I'm like, somebody marry these. Can somebody--. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yes. Yeah, got to do your side work. JON STEWART: You take your side work. You used to take the two ketchup bottles, back when they would leave just the bottle on the table. They didn't have the little refillable plastic. And you would plop them on top of each other. and just let them-- and, like, it was the long laboratory. at the end of it. And I always used to think to myself,

like, that's not sanitary in any way. That's like--. GILLIAN SPEAR: No. And yet, it hasn't changed the way I eat out at all. Like, I still trust that ketchup implicitly. I don't know why that is. JON STEWART: Why shouldn't you? What's a little food poisoning amongst condiment friends? By the way, I've worked retail and restaurants. And, if I may add, been fired from all disciplines. I've probably been fired from more jobs than you. two have had.

That's how bad I was in the early days, where, like, there was just--. like three months in, they would just be like, hey. Thanks so much for coming in at 5:00 AM to clean all the pans. at the bakery, but you put soap in there, and that got in the bread, and you've got to go. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah, well, it worked out in the end. JON STEWART: Did it though? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Wait, did you fold shirts? JON STEWART: Oh, yeah.

I was a stock boy in Woolworth's, in--. there was a place called Jekyll's Hydes leather. I worked in there for a while. Ormond's-- do you ever remember a store named Ormond's? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: No. GILLIAN SPEAR: You've had a lot of jobs. Yeah. JON STEWART: A lot of jobs, man. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: And look at you now, kid. JON STEWART: Until I found liquor store, none of them. worked out. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Something just popped into my mind. JON STEWART: Yes. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Both Gillian and I. were fired, specifically by you previously.

JON STEWART: Wait, what? No, you weren't. A show being removed is not the same as being fired. You-- GILLIAN SPEAR: I thought it. I wasn't going to say it. JON STEWART: No, no, no. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Wait a second. JON STEWART: This is an outrageous stretching. of the definition of fired. You were not fired. You abandoned ship with me when Apple. made it untenable for us to continue. doing our show, The Problem. For those who don't know, Gillian and Brittany and I. worked on The Problem together.

And Gillian and Brittany were superstars at The Problem. And then Apple fired me. Well, they didn't really fire me. They just told me that to work there, I would have to disown everything. that I ever held dear. And so I left. But we weren't-- we-- that's not considered being fired. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: It was consciously uncoupling, yes. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah.

JON STEWART: Thank you. You know what it was? It was self-care. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yes. JON STEWART: It was walking out of what was becoming. an abusive relationship. And if you've ever been in an abusive relationship. with a multinational conglomerate--. GILLIAN SPEAR: And who hasn't? I mean--. JON STEWART: You know the hard part about breaking. up with Apple is all the breakup. songs are on their technology. It's almost impossible to avoid--. very difficult. All right, what else do they want? What else? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: All right, last one.

JON STEWART: All right. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Jon, what makes New Jersey so special. that it's the only state that won't allow. people to pump their own gas? JON STEWART: First of all, it's an excellent question, because people are always stunned by that. And I'll tell you why that is. The customer service in New Jersey is second to none. What do you need, gas? You need anything? We are a state that just wants-- we are--. New Jersey is just a state filled with butlers waiting,

that whatever your desire is-- when you're born in New Jersey, everybody gets a little bell. GILLIAN SPEAR: Oh, it's a very refined society in New Jersey. JON STEWART: Gillian, you get it. And if you ever need anything, whether gas, or you need your windows washed, or you need to scrape the carcinogens off your car, if you happen to live in that area of--. GILLIAN SPEAR: The Garden State. JON STEWART: --ring the little bell, and someone will show up and say, what can I do for you?

Can I help you? You don't have to tip. You don't have to do anything. We just-- we just take care of everything. We want to be that state where all-- there's. no self-serve bullshit in. We are a full service state. GILLIAN SPEAR: Full-service state--. I love that. JON STEWART: Come down. What do you need? Here's your gas. It's going to be sunny out. You want to put a little SPF on you? You want me to get that? That's what we do, too, although people. generally don't take us up on that one as much. because it's creepy.

But the gas thing people love. Do they do that-- they don't do-- in Long Island, they certainly don't do that. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: No. You're getting out. JON STEWART: Are we really the only state that does that? GILLIAN SPEAR: I think so. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah, I believe so. GILLIAN SPEAR: It's, like, deeply uncomfortable, too. JON STEWART: Oh, really? Can I tell you something? It's not a comfortable feeling at all. And not only that, when it's happening, I always maintain eye contact with whoever. it is that's pumping the gas so that we just sit there looking.

at each other like this. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. JON STEWART: Yeah. GILLIAN SPEAR: That's why you do it, yeah, for that quality eye contact. JON STEWART: Yeah. And then, weirdly enough, whenever you get your gas. pumped in New Jersey and you make eye contact, "Afternoon Delight" plays over the speakers. It's this weird--. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: What an experience. JON STEWART: Oh, it's-- listen, man, there's no. state like New Jersey. All right, kids, very, very nice. How do they keep in touch with us, Brittany? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: On Twitter, we are WeeklyShowPod. Instagram, Threads, TikTok, Blue Sky,

we are WeeklyShowPodcast, and you can like, subscribe, and comment on our YouTube channel, The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart. JON STEWART: Oh, for God's sakes, fantastic. As always, couldn't do it without Lead Producer. Lauren Walker. Producer Brittany Mehmedovic, Producer Gillian Spear, Video. Editor and Engineer Rob Vitola, Audio Editor and Engineer. Nicole Boyce, and our Executive Producers. Chris McShane and Katie Gray. We'll see you guys. Do we have one next week? I think we do. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: We do. JON STEWART: Yeah, all right. We'll see you guys next week. Buh-bye. The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart.

is a Comedy Central podcast. It's produced by Paramount Audio and Busboy Productions. [MUSIC PLAYING].