Andor, Trump and Our Revolutionary Times | The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart

JON STEWART: You know, when we talk about the printing. press comes in and everybody thinks--. and that ushered in the Enlightenment. It actually ushered in 100 years of, like, fucking killing witches. But the hope is is that people's brains--. MIKE DUNCAN: Yeah. Dude, dude, Mike and Tony just both heaved huge sighs. Like, is that how we're going to end this? Just the two of us being, like--. JON STEWART: Come on, man. I'm trying to bring us into a fucking optimistic--. God! [THEME MUSIC]. Hey, everybody. Welcome to The Weekly Show podcast.

My name is Jon Stewart. We are back after being off for, I think, a week there, and we're taping this damn thing-- what is there? Wednesday, July 9. It's probably going to air tomorrow. As of this moment, the Epstein files are still not here. There they were here. They were on a desk, and then they weren't on the desk. And then they said that they don't have the files. Apparently, a gentleman named Jeffrey. Epstein, who was sex trafficking. hundreds of people--.

there were hundreds of victims of this, but apparently acted alone. There are no files. And then maybe tomorrow they will have the files, and it turns out, all the files were. written on-- with lemon juice on paper. Oh, they just had to hold them up under the light. And then they appeared again. Ah. This has been such a surreal experience. watching this administration in this moment. Look, Donald Trump very clearly came to power, the--.

the fuel of his rise was the kinetic energy of conspiracy. He rode the power of, quote unquote, "the secret knowledge" to light up his audiences, to--. to drive them mad with injustice.

and how they were going to fight it. There was this deep state, and they all knew about it. And there was a liberal conspiracy, and there were children involved. And they were-- and-- and Trump and all his influencers, and all those individuals that force-amplified. the conspiracies are what, I think, drew his movement together. It was-- in many ways, it's the glue.

that holds the MAGA movement much more than, I think, patriotism does. It's the glue of secret knowledge. Of unknown forces that work against. you to cause your life-- and one. of the main forces was this--. exemplified by this Epstein thing. And everybody talked about, oh, when they got in there. and they were going to--. where we go one, we go all, and we're. going to clean this thing up. And it is so fucking bananas to watch them now try and defuse.

this bomb that they planted. Watching Pam Bondi--. I don't know if you saw the cabinet. meeting where somebody--. the first moment they brought up. Epstein in the cabinet meeting, and Trump immediately jumps in. Really? You're going to talk about that guy? That guy?

The guy that my audience has been, like, clamoring about for-- for 10 years? That's the guy you're going to bring up while children. are missing in Texas? And you're like, man, you--. like, you were golfing the whole weekend. What are you talking about? How dare someone ask a question, it's desecration? You were on, like, the 11th hole. when all this was going down. You didn't-- you didn't change. And it's a very reasonable question. But to watch Pam Bondi have to go from--.

and it's the same that happened with Bongino and Patel, to go from conspiracy theorist to reasoned expert is just--. mwah, chef's kiss. Oh, there's a minute missing from the prison videos. They had security camera footage from the prison, but there's a minute missing, from 11:59 to midnight. And that minute, man, you can fit--. how many conspiracies can you fit on the head of a minute?

Like, you can fit them all. And watching Pam Bondi have to go, you know, I-- yeah, no, listen, I get it, you know, a minute is missing, but it turns out, there's a very simple explanation. and it's somewhat innocuous, so it's. not the-- the sinister motives that everybody thought it was. So I'm sure that will take all the air out of this conspiracy. because I've just explained to you, there's a very reasonable explanation.

for why that doesn't exist. Watching them dance on the head of this pin is going to be--. and I will guarantee you that ultimately-- you're. already starting to see it. It's fire Pam Bondi. It's not fire the guy who's in all the pictures with Epstein. and who said, I don't know if I'm going to release the files. because there's a lot of phony stuff in there, and Trump said there was phony stuff in there. And we all know the definition of "phony". when it comes to Donald Trump. Anything that reflects poorly on Donald Trump.

is phony or fake. So by the very fact that he used that word specifically. tells you something. Very much so. And I'm sure it'll morph, because somehow, dear leader will-- will find his way out of it. It'll be Pam Bondi or it'll be somehow--. or it'll be the Mossad, or-- they'll. come up with some fucking idea that, oh, actually, Trump has been really smart. He's got all the information and he's using it as kompromat. to get--.

to-- to bring peace to this world. But man, what an upside-down. It's like watching the movie Speed where they've all. been in the bus driving 80 miles an hour, and suddenly the driver turns out to be one of them, and he's like, actually, I planted the bus--. I planted the bomb, and I'm the one who said we. couldn't drive less than 80. It's-- man, we're in such a weird moment, man. And that's why-- so we have a great couple of guests today.

that can actually talk about this weird moment. that we're in through the lens of history. and through the lens of art and fiction. Two people that I just--. I so admire the work that they both do. So I want to get to that and get out of the absurdity. of the moment that we're in. So let's get to them. Folks, I am excited here.

I've got two fellas. I'm a huge fan of-- of both of these individuals. We've got Tony Gilroy, who, if you're. fans of the-- the Bourne series, the writer, sometimes. director of all those great films, the creator of Andor, Rogue One obviously co-wrote. And Mike Duncan we all know, bestselling author. And if you're a fan at all of history podcasts, the creator. of The History of Rome, one of the most fabulous podcasts ever.

done, and all those Revolutions podcasts, including. the upcoming It's Now Over in the podcasts, but as you know, in the future, there will be a Martian revolution. And Mike Duncan has very graciously informed us. about the various things that are going to happen. in the Martian revolution. But the reason I wanted to have you both. together on the podcast in this moment, because I feel like it--. this is one of those fraught moments in time.

where we all feel we may be on the precipice of one. of these schisms that leads to--. or leads to something historic, but maybe people. always feel that way. But the reason I wanted to pull the two of you together, Mike, as a historian, I think what historians do so well. is they view revolution, or historical events, and they deconstruct them.

They allow you to take a core sample of these moments. in time that we all believe we understand really well, but the historian goes through and shows you. the component parts may not be what you imagine them to be. And then the artist and the writer and the director, like Tony, you take those deconstructed moments. of revolution, the ingredients, and you reconstruct them.

to create these beautiful works of art that kind of give. insight into maybe the more emotional aspects. of-- of what these are. It's almost as though you are two sides of the same coin. So, I want to start with Mike deconstructing. history and revolutions. What-- what drew you to that? What do you find that you learn from kind. of taking that fine-tooth comb and going.

through these large scale movements and moments. that we all think we understand, but showing us their component parts? MIKE DUNCAN: Yeah. Like, I mean, I got into revolutions. Like, I started the Revolutions podcast. because revolutions, I think, are inherently interesting. moments in time. This is where so much is happening, and, like, so many. of the pivots of history, like, exist in this. and it's so chaotic. There's so many-- like, there's--. the French Revolution is inherently interesting, the Russian Revolution is inherently interesting.

So I did want to, like, go through these, and I thought it would make for a great format for a show. And then when I'm doing, you know, the individual revolutions, I'm not really thinking about, like, how these connect necessarily. to other revolutions. I just want to explain the one that is right in front. of my face right now. Like, I want to explain the Revolution of 1830. in the specific context of 1830. And then when I do the Mexican Revolution, I want to talk about the specific context. of the Mexican Revolution. But then when I was all done with, like, these 10 seasons.

worth of revolutions that I had written, I did produce, like--. I forget how many episodes it is now, like 12 or 15 episodes, where I went back through and really did a big. compare-and-contrast of every revolution that I had covered. from the English Civil War-- JON STEWART: Right. MIKE DUNCAN: --to the Russian Revolution. And there are sort of similar structures, similar character types, similar orders of events. There are reasons why things happen. that you can sort of extract from this. like an abstract structure. And then we would never want to take that abstract structure. and, like, put it on today and say,

that means this is how things will. go, or put it in the future and say, that's how things will go. But when things then do roll out, if we get another revolution, I'll. bet you anything, you could go back through it, talk about the specific context of that particular revolution, and then see, oh, yep, this is exactly. like it was around the Cromwell era, and exactly like it was for Robespierre and Danton, and that is sort of how things go because history does not--. Yeah, history doesn't repeat itself, but it absolutely does rhyme. JON STEWART: It's amazing. And Tony, when you're creating these worlds, are you,

then, going through work like the work that--. that Mike does--. or as a fan of that, how are you compiling those kinds. of ingredients that he's talking. about to create the worlds that you're creating? Because what you do so well is make them resonate. There's a reality to them. They feel three-dimensional, which is, for-- for an artist, for a director, for a writer, that is such a challenge.

What's your process like, then? TONY GILROY: Well, I mean, first of all, I need like a booster seat or a flotation device. to participate in a real historical conversation. because I am not a pro. Like, I am--. JON STEWART: That's what Mike's here for, man. Me and you, we're on the different side. That's what Mike's here for. TONY GILROY: Yeah, no. And even you, I mean, you guys have--. you guys have the kind of--.

you guys have the kind of memories. and the kind of minds that hang on to all this stuff. I'm liberated I get-- really. I mean, in 40 years of doing this, or 35, 37 years of doing. this, I have never once done a true life story for a script. You can imagine how many scripts I've written. You can imagine how many things I got offered over the years. I mean, how many--. and I've never done one-- my brother and I touched on one,

but the character was so obscure, it really didn't matter. I've even-- I've even hijacked projects. that were non-fiction and fought hard. to turn them in-- against--. JON STEWART: To fictionalize--. TONY GILROY: --the tide to turn, to fictionalize them, saying, I can't do this if we're gonna stay real. So I get this absolute instantaneous free pass. So I don't have to tell the truth. It's really--. JON STEWART: You don't have to tell the truth, but when you're building the foundation of a story.

to make it resonate, to make it believable--. TONY GILROY: Yeah, I'm getting there. I mean, it's-- it's the best--. it's the best possible situation. I can-- I've listened--. I've now listened to all of my--. I didn't do it in order. I looked today. What am I missing? What didn't I do? The only revolution I did not do with Mike. was the American Revolution. JON STEWART: What? MIKE DUNCAN: Oh, that's fine. TONY GILROY: I don't know why. Because I-- because I did it in school. That's the only one I didn't do. MIKE DUNCAN: You could-- you could skip that one. JON STEWART: Mike is our teacher. TONY GILROY: And I didn't do Martian because I.

didn't want to get-- I didn't want to have any--. I didn't want to, like--. I didn't-- for five years, I didn't listen to any--. MIKE DUNCAN: Oh, you didn't want. to go through a whole other science. fiction revolution in space? TONY GILROY: --a good idea, maybe not. MIKE DUNCAN: After having just spent five years doing one. TONY GILROY: Maybe not. And so-- but the reason that I listened to it. wasn't just because I was working on the show. The reason I listened to it, because I've been a freak. for this my whole life. So, I mean, the library in this house is just a chaos of--. you know, of random books from the street, and bad history books, and great history.

books, and weird things. And so I have that--. I have what you were describing before. I use history as a catalog. I really get to use the entire catalog of incidents. It's almost as if I shop for what I need as I go along. And I have one requirement that--. that-- that is above all that, which is that it has to be--. it has to be behavioral. It has to be relatable to character.

JON STEWART: Explain that, explain that. TONY GILROY: I mean, all of these, I don't necessarily--. I don't really have a dog in the fight of the great man. or great moment philosophies of history, the big debates about all that, it doesn't matter to me. But, when I read history, I am always, if it's not being presented to me overtly, I am always trying to dig behind the what's. going on for the behavioral aspect of why. is Mussolini doing this now? Why is Garibaldi doing this right now?

JON STEWART: Right. TONY GILROY: Why would they do that? And what does he need? What is he so afraid of that-- what is she--. what is she so desperate to have? So I--. JON STEWART: You're looking for motivation, in a lot of ways. TONY GILROY: I think motivation is--. is just-- motivation is a word that's just right up front. I think behavior is much more important. than motivation in a way. JON STEWART: Right. TONY GILROY: So I don't have any of the moral or objective. criteria or judgments or comments coming at me about.

truthfulness that anybody else is going to have, but I do have a very high bar in that behavior has to be. honest, it has to be real, it has to be consistent, and I have to find a way to get my people, my characters, into situations, and I can't--. I can set the trap--. I can set the things in motion, I can light the kindling. on fire, but I cannot--. once the characters are involved in the machinery, I can't--. I can't manipulate the machinery to do what I want.

The characters have to take it where it goes. That's my responsibility. JON STEWART: Hey, everybody. You know, as you know, I'm a very. modern man, very tech-savvy. I'm a big VPN guy. And I'm going to tell you, Surfshark, it's a modern VPN. It's designed with the user in mind. You know, a lot of them VPNs, they're not designed. with the user in mind. The utility on Surfshark are powered. by robust security mechanisms, but designed. to be simple and intuitive.

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STEWART at checkout to get four extra months of Surfshark VPN. That's surfshark.com/stewart to get. four extra months of the VPN. We don't think of history in itself. as a series of behaviors or motivations in those things. We see it as there's a certain inevitability to it.

MIKE DUNCAN: I mean, everything Tony just said is. like what I do in revolutions. I'm obsessed with why people do the things that they do. JON STEWART: Right. MIKE DUNCAN: And there are large structural forces. that people are existing within like, of course, but it is, like, individual choices and individual, like, motivations, like what is getting people up out of bed. and driving them to do things. And then especially when we're talking about, like, you know, people like Tsar Nicholas or, you know, Marie Antoinette, like--. you know, Tsar Nicholas was not sitting down and being like, I'm going to be an evil tyrant today and oppress people, and then they'll rise up against me,

but that-- but I hate them. JON STEWART: Right. MIKE DUNCAN: No, he--. he was convinced that he had been given his position by God, and that it was his job to, like, steward. this responsibility that the Romanov family had, you know, to--. to reign over Russia and hand that off to his--. hand that off to his heir. That's their principal motivation. That's what they're focused on. They're not focused on anything else beyond that. And inside of Nicholas's mind and Alexandra's mind, this makes a ton of sense, and what they're. doing makes a ton of sense, and is internally.

consistent with their own belief system, even though it appears from the outside to be like, well, you're just awful people who need to be overthrown. That's-- nobody-- nobody actually works like that. So anytime I'm reading a biography. or I'm reading a history or something, I'm very much focused on, you know, what is the psychological motivation for people. and the things that they do? That's a huge part of the show. JON STEWART: I think that's such an interesting point, and I wonder, Tony, how you deal with this in the way. that you're constructing these things.

That there's a difference between genuine belief. and cynical manipulation. And in revolutions, there's always that moment-- and Orwell. sort of, you know, spoke to this, I think, really well, that idea of the people that are in charge, are they behaving based on true belief or are. they manipulating systems for maximum power? Like, Tsar Nicholas, you might look at it that way,

but then when we look at, like, maybe the more. modern revolutions where propaganda, when you talk. about the Nazis, or Lenin and Stalin, do they believe that what they're doing is right, ordained by God? Or are they manipulating for--. for power? Does that enter into--. as you construct either villains or heroes, Tony? TONY GILROY: No. I will say-- I mean, I was going to say about Mike's--.

the Revolutions podcast, I mean, he's dead-on. I mean, the reason that makes it so entertaining. and the reason why it's so--. you listen to it so compulsively, and I just-- it really a lot of hours I put into that, and you don't just do that. It is personal. It is-- he's delivering characters all the way through. JON STEWART: Right. TONY GILROY: I don't think--. I don't think I agree completely. with the basis of the question because it's like--. I-- I don't see power or rebellion or--.

or insurrection as-- I don't see. anybody having a firmer grip on cynicism than anybody else. I think cynicism is a--. I think there's some very cynical revolutionary leaders. along the way. I mean, really cynical. JON STEWART: Right. Who-- who are the people that come to mind for you? TONY GILROY: Well, I mean, look how. Lenin uses everybody around him, for crying out loud. Look at Mao. I mean, you talk about--. JON STEWART: Right. TONY GILROY: I-- man, I don't know if there's ever. been a greater--.

I don't know, maybe Mike-- maybe this book's discredited. Maybe Mike will know more. But I think one of the most incredible. books I ever read was--. because I don't think there's ever been a personal account. of someone who was so close to a historical dynastic leader, is Mao's doctor's book. That book that Mao's doctor wrote is like--. it's just-- and the cynicism inside that-- so I don't think. anybody has-- so I never look at it that-- if you look. at our show, if you look at what I do, I think in general, I'm really interested in what people wake up in the morning,

I guess, and what is really driving them. I think just as many Nazis were driven by--. by who had the best parking place. and who had the best corner office and who got. the best piping as anything. MIKE DUNCAN: Dude, it's so, so much yes. So much yes. JON STEWART: The banality of evil! MIKE DUNCAN: Yes. JON STEWART: Yes. TONY GILROY: I don't think a whole lot of people. woke up in the morning and thought, you know, It's really great. We're nationalizing the industries, and I really hate Jews so much, I want. to go out and do mass graves. JON STEWART: You don't think any of them thought that?

TONY GILROY: Oh yeah, sure. No--. JON STEWART: It couldn't have all been parking spaces. TONY GILROY: No, but you can't write a character like that. That's why--. JON STEWART: Oh, that's interesting. TONY GILROY: That's why that movie, The Zone of Silence. was so incredibly effective without doing anything. Man, I remember that-- the--. the Auschwitz movie that was out two years ago. where they never went into the camp. JON STEWART: Oh, oh. Zone of Interest. OK. TONY GILROY: There's a scene where the wife tries. on the coat in the room, and you. realize, when she goes to the pocket, that it's someone else's coat.

JON STEWART: Right. TONY GILROY: She loves it. And it's like, man, that's what--. that's where I want to live. That's-- that's where history is for me. That's-- history is in-- in the tendency of those. people to want things. Mike can speak much more eloquently, I'm sure, about how--. how individual behaviors get shaped into a lump, and a lump. gets shaped into a-- into a movement, and it moves forward. And those title-- those title shifts are--.

you know, they're important, and their story, but I. can't start characters from the point of view of anything. other than how much chaos they have inside. of them, what do they really need, what. are they afraid of, you know? That's where I go. JON STEWART: But then what is that, Mike? Is it the conductor or is it the orchestra? You know, does somebody in revolutions for this--. because I think if you look at the--. the span of human history, oppression and violence.

has always been with us, but it doesn't always. combust into revolution. Those moments are really specific. And as we're talking about sort of character and behavior, does there have to be a conductor, as you look at it? Must there be somebody-- you know, when you talk about Nicholas who is--. this person who believes I'm ordained by God and these are. the things I'm doing not to be evil,

but because this is biblically, you know, written--. how do you view that, Mike, as you look at those? MIKE DUNCAN: Well, it's a giant, like, interplay of things, right? Like, the-- the orchestra can play without the conductor, and the conductor can wave his arms without the orchestra, and the two things, like, have to come together. in order to make the revolution happen in the moment. that it does. And, yeah, like to your point, there was a line from Trotsky.

that is like, if you're talking about sort. of what are the things that cause a revolution? Like, what are the triggers of a revolution? You can't really say the misery of the peasants. is a cause of revolution because the peasants. are always miserable. JON STEWART: Right. It's the nature of peasantry. MIKE DUNCAN: The peasants are miserable whether there's. a revolution or whether--. it's the very nature of peasantry at the time. So you can't-- you can't say, like, oh, the people are miserable, and therefore, there's a revolution because human misery is omnipresent. So it takes all of these other things fitting.

together up and down the socioeconomic line. from the very inner circles of power, all the way down to, yes, the peasantry is miserable, and they are ready to, like, rise up. In my experience with revolutions, this gets sort of-- as I've gone through history, you know, starting with these very early modern revolutions, then moving all the way up into the 20th century, you can see revolution sort of professionalizing as a career. path and like a career choice. Because in the early days, you know, like the American Revolution, the French Revolution, like,

these things, they--. chaotic things happen, and there are leaders, and there are people trying to do things, make. reforms, do this, do that. But, like, usually, events start to spin out of control. Nobody's really in charge of it. And then inside of these chaotic revolutionary vacuums, leaders do pop up, and movements do pop up, and parties do pop up. And then those groups start to, like, bend--. bend events this way and that. But at least in the early days, it's never people being like, OK, we're going to sit around, we're.

going to stage a revolution, and then it's going to work. Like, the first time that even happens is in August of 1792. when they do get together and overthrow the monarchy, but that's three years into the French Revolution. by the time they're even getting down to business. and planning stuff like that. But then you move forward 100 years, and yeah, Lenin is a professional revolutionary. That is what he is trying to do. That is his job. And so he's trying to create the conditions that will. make this revolution happen. JON STEWART: And that's the first time you really. see that being exercised?

MIKE DUNCAN: Yeah, yeah. It comes along in the mid-19th century. There were definitely precursors to Lenin. But even when, like, the Russian Revolution gets going, like, where's Lenin? He's in Switzerland. Like, he didn't even know it was happening. He had to cut a deal with the Germans. just to get back there so he could lead. the revolution that he had nothing to do with, and then he did. And then-- and then him and the Bolsheviks do, like, you know, bend events their way, but, like-- this is really--. I mean, revolutions at their bottom. are just really out of any one person's hand for sure. JON STEWART: Right. TONY GILROY: You know, Jon, I mean, it's usually--.

I'm curious if Mike thinks this is true, but it's-- in the end it's--. it's a body in the street. It's-- it's like the guy who started Arab Spring because he. started himself on fire. It's the women in Paris marching to Versailles. It's like someone just says, hey, it's raining, I don't give a fuck, we're going to march to Versailles. and demand that we get our bread. I mean-- and it's--. in the end, it's somebody goes to the street, or somebody--.

or somebody blows up the Reichstag, or somebody-- or it's a false flag, or somebody does--. you know, but it--. yeah, I'm sure the Spartacus League. and various revolutionary groups. have a very highly articulated checklist of things that will. start a revolution, but I have a feeling. it's probably pretty--. it's probably pretty sad. MIKE DUNCAN: Yeah. That could be a Thursday--. JON STEWART: But as you deconstruct. these revolutions, what you end up with is, in some ways,

a to-do list. And you have a variety of choices and options, like you say, the Reichstag fire, or you have the false flag. Tony, you had that in Andor. You have that massacre in the square, and they lure them in. And you see the planning of the empire, and they're saying--. you have that wonderful Deidre who says,

you just need the right people to do the wrong thing--. or the wrong people to do the right-- you know, you need the people who think they're the revolutionaries. to commit an act that allows the empire to--. to massacre them. TONY GILROY: Well, OK, just look at that. Just look at the one thing that you've said, because you're just-- you're going. to hit on a whole bunch of things that have their own--. these are all part of the catalog. JON STEWART: Right, right, right. TONY GILROY: They don't go into every revolution. Probably-- I don't know how, but-- but--.

but you building the enemy you want is a key tactic. JON STEWART: Boy, that's a nice phrase. Building the enemy you want. TONY GILROY: Well, look, J. Edgar Hoover. puts people in the Civil Rights movement. and the Anti-War Movement. You know, the Brits put IRA, they have--. Provos. I mean, a lot of people would argue, I might agree, that Netanyahu built Hamas. I mean, you know, he took apart everything else, and he put-- he built the enemy that he wanted. You do that. That's-- that's what she's saying there. She says, we need people that will do what you want them.

to do, and that is in the--. that is in-- that is in the authoritarian playbook. for sure. I mean, Mike could probably give you 19 other examples. where that happened, but--. MIKE DUNCAN: Well, I mean, the head of the SR combat. organization was, like, taking money from the tsar while also. planting bombs, right? Like-- yeah, there are those connections, like, all the time. But again, like-- but getting back. to like the checklist of stuff, like, those guys can have a checklist. And you can hit every single part of the checklist,

and then no revolution happens because there isn't actually. like a series of buttons that you press. and then, like, have a revolution happen. And even like, you know, in February of 1917, the Bolsheviks--. I mean, the February Revolution gets going because the women. went into the streets. It was National Women's Day, and they wanted to-- the women. wanted to go out into the streets and protest, and the Bolsheviks were telling them. like, no, we don't want to do this, we want to keep our gunpowder dry. We're going to save it for May Day, like, which was just a couple of months away.

And then they went out there, and it. was a bright, sunny, warm day after a long winter in St. Petersburg, and the whole city just, like, went crazy outside of everybody's, you know, expectation of what would happen. So these things, they happen or they don't, but you're never. just going to sit down and do-- like, check nine things. and then be able to stage a revolution. That is absolutely not how these things work. JON STEWART: Folks, you've heard. me talk about this before, and I'm. going to talk about it again. And I'm not going to stop talking about it.

until you people get on this damn thing. Ground News. It's a website. It's an app. It's a website and an app. It's on a mission. It's going to give readers an easier, more data-driven. way to read the news. I don't understand why they didn't do this before. They prioritized critical thinking, media literacy. Everything they offer is all related. back to those two ideas. Every day they're pulling thousands of news articles. from around the world. They organize them by story. Each story comes with visual breakdowns. of the political bias, ownership, and headlines.

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Subscribe for 40% off, the Unlimited Access. Vantage Subscription, brings the price. down to, like, $5 a month. That's ground.news/stewart, or scan the QR code on screen. Do you find-- is it-- you know, when we think about America. in the way that we've mythologized our revolution--. and I think it speaks sometimes to fiction. because the Star Wars universe is so interestingly--. I think people look at the Rebel Alliance.

as the liberals and the Empire as, well, that must be conservative. The liberals, look, they're-- they're all different species, and they're-- they're living together in sin and doing all. kinds of different things, and the Empire is much. more kind of fascistic and authoritarian, and they're doing those. But revolutions don't neatly play along. the "liberals are the good guys and the conservatives. are the bad guys.". You know, Orwell wrote--.

his was Stalinist, you know. TONY GILROY: Yeah. JON STEWART: Go ahead, Tony. You think--. TONY GILROY: No, I mean, the Empire is pretty clearly. fascistic, I would say. MIKE DUNCAN: I don't think there's much--. TONY GILROY: I kind of--. I think you're safe. MIKE DUNCAN: It seems to have some fascist overtones to it, I don't know. JON STEWART: No, I'm saying that fictionally, you. can do that. MIKE DUNCAN: I don't know if anybody gets that connection. TONY GILROY: The color palette, maybe? A little bit? Anyway. But they-- you know. And look, I know, I am--. I win no Star Wars trivia contests at all.

But I do know what I was given was five years. I have a five-year piece of the calendar, and the five years that I have is a furnace that's just about. to go nuts, so-- because the Empire is, at this moment, making a huge effort--. JON STEWART: And this is the five years prior to A New Hope. TONY GILROY: Five years prior to Rogue One, yeah. Prior to the blowing up of the Death Star and the whole. thing, yeah. So I get those five years, and I. have a couple canonical incidents on the calendar.

that I have to pay attention to. JON STEWART: Right. TONY GILROY: But the general understanding of that period. of time is they are consolidating power. aggressively because they know they're. building this energy project that will dominate everything. They are doing what every fascistic government. does, which is nationalizing all. the corporate entities first. They are stripping the legal system. They are rewriting. They are emasculating and completely neutering the--.

the political organizations. I have them write a public order resentencing directive. in the first season, which just changes all of the laws about--. about arrests. And-- and they-- they're building factory prisons. JON STEWART: Sending them to detention centers that are--. TONY GILROY: Factory prisons--. JON STEWART: That's right. Where they're working. Yeah. TONY GILROY: Yeah, where they're working. And all those different things. I mean, they're-- they're on a big power grab. And the other really--.

the other liberating thing about what. I'm doing, I suppose, the other thing that makes it easy--. there's a lot of things that are hard about it, that makes. it easy is not just that I don't have to tell the truth. or have to be beholden to any specific revolution, but I also--. I don't really have anybody espousing their ideology. of what they want the galaxy to look. like when the fight is over. JON STEWART: Oh, wow. TONY GILROY: I don't have anybody. saying, when we're done, this is what it's gonna look like.

JON STEWART: Right. TONY GILROY: I thought in the beginning, when. I came on the show, that that was going to really. be a very big thing for me. I think I probably-- somewhere in this office I have a couple. weeks of work on that, of trying. to figure out how I was going to try to deal with that. And I gradually realized that I just didn't really. need to do that, and I thought, how. long can I get away with that? And then it turned out to be--. I don't miss it at all. People don't miss that. It's--. JON STEWART: Man, you just blew my mind because I. hadn't thought of it that way, Tony,

but you're-- you're right. In the entirety of that five-year period, and with--. with Rogue One, I don't think I ever remember--. there's no moment like there is like with Padme saying, so this is how liberty dies--. TONY GILROY: No, no one's saying--. JON STEWART: --with thunderous applause. TONY GILROY: --we're really gonna. have collective bargaining. MIKE DUNCAN: That's-- that's because--. that's because Tony's a really good writer. TONY GILROY: No--. JON STEWART: Oh, so that's the secret? MIKE DUNCAN: That's why you don't hear that--. JON STEWART: Son of a bitch. TONY GILROY: I'm an old, sneaky writer. But-- but it's surprising to me that that--.

I mean, I have--. I mean, I tiptoe around it. I have a thing very early on where. Forest Whitaker's character, because he's a real--. JON STEWART: Right. TONY GILROY: He's a real outlier, you know, partisan, uncontrollable. And he has a long speech with--. JON STEWART: He's a real revolutionary. TONY GILROY: Yeah. And he-- and-- and he says, man, what are you? Are you-- and he names, like, seven different groups. And some of the names I just made up for the moment. You know, human cultists and the Maya Pei Brigade,

and different things I put in there, which-- who are you? But he never--. I never pinned them down to what it is they want. That fight is going to come later on. I do want to suggest that that fight is going to come. in coalition, and I do spend a lot of energy, as in every revolution-- and every revolution that Mike's. dealing with, I mean, fighting--. fighting authority is just one-third of the battle. JON STEWART: Right. TONY GILROY: One-third is trying to get food. The other third is trying to get food.

And the other third is fighting with the people. you're working with. JON STEWART: Mike, what--. when you look at those real revolutions, the thing. that Tony's talking about, sort of that governing philosophy, the -isms that are associated with it, what-- what part. does that play in being able to coalesce. these kind of revolutionary groups. into something that is more successful or less successful? How much of it is ideology and--. and what the world should look like?

MIKE DUNCAN: Well, I think in the beginning, Tony gets it right because it usually is opposition. to a single shared enemy. Some kind of opponent that you all share. a common hostility towards. JON STEWART: Created or otherwise. Like, real or imagined. MIKE DUNCAN: Yeah. And it's usually-- and the way I describe it is like basically. whatever you want, whatever it happens. to be on the ideological spectrum, there's an obstacle to getting what you want. And so a lot of people-- like, the king is the obstacle to me.

I'm a liberal noble, I just want to reform things. And then, like, over here, you have the communist, the king is an obstacle to me because I want full--. I want full luxury communism and we've. got to get rid of the king. So that makes these two sides, at least. in that part of the revolution, allies, of course, because everybody's sharing the same obstacle. And so that brings this huge disparate group together, and they all charge at that one obstacle together. and they blow it up. And then, yes, they are left with what to do next.

And in the Revolutions podcast, this-- this--. this pattern showed up very, very early on, which is any revolutionary group that wins immediately. breaks into at least two factions. and they start fighting each other. JON STEWART: Is that the most fraught. stage, Mike, that you see in these types of movements? That-- that sort of power vacuum? MIKE DUNCAN: Well, I mean, every stage is fraught, but oh yeah, dude, a power vacuum is--. JON STEWART: Nobody likes a power vacuum. MIKE DUNCAN: Because-- yeah, because you're just. making it up as you go, right? We declared a provisional government. On whose authority?

We don't know, but we just declared it. And hopefully people will believe. it, because all this stuff just exists in our mind, you know? Like, sovereignty and accepting, like, who has power. and who doesn't, these are all just, like, emotional states and psychological states, getting back to that. But when-- when they achieve power, they're going to wind up fighting with each other. because even though they shared an obstacle, they did not share an ultimate goal. And so this-- so I call this the entropy of victory, which. is that any time a group achieves victory,

then they just start to spread apart, and it usually it breaks down into some kind of binary. Because then these guys over here roughly say to themselves, well, our new obstacle is those guys over there. And these guys are saying, well, our obstacle is those guys over there, and then they start fighting. This group wins and then they split, this group wins. and then they split, and then suddenly you. got Robespierre blowing his own jaw off because he's. about to get overthrown. TONY GILROY: And then Frankenstein wakes up. and it turns out, he's not dead after all. MIKE DUNCAN: Yeah, he's not dead after all. TONY GILROY: Oh my God. Napoleon XIX. JON STEWART: Tony, this is what's.

so brilliant about sort of how you construct these. in the fictionalized universe. And even Star Wars-- and it's-- it's A New Hope. And then-- or it's Rogue One. But then it's the Empire Strikes Back. And then it's The Force--. this ebb and flow of--. TONY GILROY: I don't have to worry about any of that, Jon. I just had to do Andor. I'm just doing Andor. JON STEWART: Right. MIKE DUNCAN: And I could not have been more disappointed. with what they decided to do with those sequel movies. because, you know, the whole point of the original three.

movies is, like, we defeated the Empire, and now we're going to go forward and let's see what. happens next, and the idea that there is not drama and conflict. and incredibly fascinating things. to deal with after you've overthrown the Empire, now you're trying to, like, restore the Old Republic. and how does that work? JON STEWART: Right, right. MIKE DUNCAN: That's-- that stuff-- that. stuff is all over the place. It is-- is beautiful fodder, and now we're. left with a sort of franchise that, like, you. end the sixth movie and they're dancing on Endor. because everything is great, and then. the first scene of the next movie is, like, oh,

we're a resistance again? We're fighting who? Like, what is the new arc? I didn't know what any of this--. I thought-- I thought we beat all these guys. TONY GILROY: Mike said that. I just want to make sure, Mike said that. MIKE DUNCAN: I'm saying--. I'm saying it so nobody else has to, but yeah, I was--. JON STEWART: Well done, Mike. MIKE DUNCAN: I was real-- yeah, thank you. I was really bummed out by that because those--. and people talk about, like--. when I do the show, like, nothing ends on Bastille. Day, right? Like, nothing ends when the Czar is overthrown. That's the middle of the show, or even just still occurring. in the first third of the show, and then it's everything. that happens after that--.

JON STEWART: And they haven't even. introduced the new character of Napoleon yet. MIKE DUNCAN: Yeah-- yeah, yeah, yeah. These guys are showing up like very, very late in the game. JON STEWART: Right. MIKE DUNCAN: Yeah. So all of that stuff is as fascinating. and as much a part of the revolutionary process. as the initial overthrow, which is like the first wave. of the revolution is usually United, it's usually very democratic. Words like "freedom" and "liberty" are just, like, on everyone's lips. And we see this all the time. And then, yeah, as soon as you get power, then. it's every group starts breaking. against every other group.

JON STEWART: Tony, I thought what. was so interesting about Andor is, you know, what he's talking. The way that you handled, you know, this idea of-- of what--. Cassian Andor's journey to it. What was so interesting is, oftentimes in fiction, there's sort of this idea of the ordained. There's Neo, or there's Skywalker. Cassian Andor is just some guy. Like, he doesn't-- he's not a revolutionary. He has to be, like, kind of roped into this,

and his conditions become so extreme. that it seems like his behavior really changes. How did you resist that kind of ordained trope? TONY GILROY: I mean, it was--. well, it was baked into the very concept. of what I was doing. They tried to do several other Prequel shows. with the same idea, and they--. you know, what's the smart-- what's the obvious thing to do?

So they wanted to have a show where Cassian and K2 would. go do adventures and stuff. So they tried to do that a couple of times. JON STEWART: Mm-hmm. TONY GILROY: And after they did the first one--. it was very slick, the script and the package and everything, but it was--. Kathy Kennedy sent it over to me. Not-- not to work on, but just as an-- for advice, and said, hey, what do you think about this? And I go, well, this is very smart. and slick and entertaining. I go, but I don't know what the hell you're. gonna do after episode 5. I mean, what are you gonna do, just.

storm the Citadel every week? There's nothing to do. You'll die on the vine here. I mean, there's just-- there's no story protein here at all. JON STEWART: Right. TONY GILROY: She said, well, what should we do? And I said, well, man, if I was gonna do this show, you'd-- you'd take this guy back to a roach and take him. on the-- pick him up on the worst day of his. life and try to see how--. how far away from--. in Rogue One, he's all singing, all dancing. revolutionary warrior leader. I mean, he has every skill there is. JON STEWART: Right. TONY GILROY: He's a butterfly. So, like, how far away from that.

could you take somebody to get there in five years? That was too radical for them at that moment. But when they came back-- they came back a year and a half. later and go, you know, that idea doesn't sound so crazy. So it was baked in for me. I don't see any other way that you would do it. I don't see how you'd-- how you'd get there. And I don't want to make it seem like I've got a chalkboard. here and a calculator, but, like, I do want to pull from the menu of what.

radicalizes a human being. What are the stations of the cross that make somebody wake. up to political consciousness? And then pass political consciousness, how does somebody wake up to the point. of personal sacrifice? And-- and ultimate sacrifice, really. And so that first season is him--. you know, is me-- it's-- you know, I'm kind.

of working the menu there. I mean, he's a thief, he's a killer, nobody wants to see him, he's broke, he's cynical, he'll be a mercenary, he'll stay a mercenary, he'll go on a party with the money that they stole. And everybody that he meets along the way--. his mother, even, and every single person. has an effect on him. I have a Trotsky character who spins ideology to him, you know? JON STEWART: Right. TONY GILROY: Reads his manifesto. He meets people along the way whose whole families. were slaughtered. There's people there for revenge--.

he meets all these other influences. And then all of that was to try to pack. that musket as tight as I can, and then I send him to prison. And in the prison, the only way he's. going to get out of the prison is. to lead a revolution because no one else is going to do it. And so he-- he builds a mini-revolution in the prison. And-- and by the time he gets out and the success of that, he's fully committed. And-- and that's-- so, I mean, I'm trying to show what it. takes to get somebody all the way there, and if you.

look at the characters that--. you know, that Mike's dealing with in the show all the time, I mean, I don't know--. I mean, some of these people are there instantly. I mean, if you're in the Haitian Revolution. and you're-- you know, you're a slave, it's pretty easy to figure out where you want to get, I would think. JON STEWART: But it is interesting how often prison. seems to play a role in either the hardening. of these revolutionaries, or of the awakening of them, or in the setting that feeling of like, and now, this will be--. TONY GILROY: Look at Hitler.

Who-- who more than Hitler? JON STEWART: Right. TONY GILROY: If he didn't have time to write that fucking. book, what would happen? I mean, holy cow. JON STEWART: Right. TONY GILROY: I mean, really. JON STEWART: But it is those little moments. And again, this is one of the brilliant things--. and I'll ask Tony about this because-- and then go to Mike, but the brilliant thing about, I think, the Rogue universe and the Andor universe. is you take this one moment that is the climax of the very. first Star Wars movie, which is this one-in-million, trust. the Force shot of a-- you know, a bomb into an air duct.

that goes in, and you build out this entire world of, how did they make that shot? How did they get--. it turns out, the guy who designed. it was doing it under duress. He had placed that in there, but they had to get that--. there's-- there's this whole universe in this one moment. And it's so brilliant that you--. you played that out and created this entire world.

of that one shot. TONY GILROY: But it's like Mike said, you go tablespoon by tablespoon, you don't ever look at it as a big thing. You just go step by step. You can't-- can't look at it as-- it's like. he goes into a brothel to look for his sister. You could say, oh, if he doesn't. go into the brothel, look for his sister, you don't blow up the Death Star. Of course, you could look at everything that way. JON STEWART: Right. TONY GILROY: It is--. it is stitch by stitch, and what feels good. and what's behaviorally right, and what's. politically interesting, and what will. people really believe, and--. and you know.

JON STEWART: Mike, when you look at the actual history, I think it's-- it's easy for us when we look at fictionalized. representations to think of the inevitability. of revolutions or the inevitability of the victors. Are you surprised by the lack of inevitability, and the way. that they fall apart, and--. and all the ups and downs that occur? That-- that these moments where we look at it as, oh, sure, the assassination of an archduke, how could that not lead to-- to revolution, right?

Is that what's-- what's surprising to you. as you delve into these? MIKE DUNCAN: Well, I mean, "surprised". isn't the right word because, I mean, I got into revolutions after, you know, like doing the entire history of the Roman Empire, which is, again, like, those aren't necessarily revolutions, but you can definitely see how nothing is inevitable. And there are times in history where it just. feels like every single thing is locking into place.

to make a revolution happen, and the revolution. is going to explode. And then just, like, nothing happens. It fizzles out. There's-- you know, if you look at what was going on between, like, 1955 and 1968 in the United States, like, there's every reason to believe there was going. to be a full-blown revolution in the United. States at that time. There's-- a lot of the pieces are falling into place. JON STEWART: The '20s and '30s. I look at the anarchy--. the anarchists of the '20s, the absolute economic collapse. of-- of the late '20s and the early. '30s, it's almost stunning that there's not a revolution.

MIKE DUNCAN: Yeah. And then there are times, like in French history, there was damn near a revolution in France. in the early 1820s that was basically. called on account of rain. Like, everybody started getting-- like, in Paris, like everybody starts getting together, and it just rained so hard that day. Like literally, that people were not as able. to get together and storm out into the streets, whereas in February of 1917, the opposite happened. Like I said, when the women went out, it just so happened to be like a very balmy spring day. after a long winter, and so like, everybody was like, yeah,

let's go out into the streets, let's do a thing, and then that becomes the revolution. And then there are other times where nobody expects. a revolution to break out, nobody thinks anything is going. to happen, and then the next thing you know, things start running away from it. Like, I wrote this biography of Lafayette, and there's-- there's a really funny moment where. they're having all these battles with King Charles. in early 1830-- like, he's annulled elections, he's rewriting election laws, he's canceling free press, and they're like, we're-- we're going to have these battles. with him, but-- but like, we're going.

to come back like for the fall session and do all this stuff. And there's a note from Lafayette saying, like, I'm. gonna leave Paris and I'm gonna go back home. to Lagrange because, like, nothing's going. to happen over the summer. And then like literally, 36 hours later, people. are manning the barricades in Paris, and Charles is on his way to being overthrown. And, like, Lafayette, has to immediately turn around. and come back to Paris because the revolution he did not think. was going to happen suddenly broke out, you know, contrary to anybody's expectations. So that stuff is the stuff of history. And nothing is ever inevitable.

Like, nothing is written. And you might think it is, but it is not. And then things will-- things will happen that will surprise. you, and things that you absolutely. are dead certain will happen just do not happen at all. JON STEWART: So Tony creates these incredibly just layered. plays of behavior and things that-- that-- and how. people become these revolutionaries, and what they have to do it. And you're looking at the different ingredients.

that went into these things. But we all live in the present. And it's really difficult--. I have a hard time doing this. Not looking at the present and gathering up those ingredients. that you guys put into-- that, Tony, you put into this, you. know, brilliant show about a revolutionary; and Mike, you put into deconstructing. And not look at the ingredients in this moment and think, boy, we are in a tinderbox.

There's-- there's not an ingredient--. MIKE DUNCAN: Jon. JON STEWART: Yeah? TONY GILROY: We're in it. We're in a tinderbox. JON STEWART: Well, that's--. a historian of revolution has just told us we're in it. God! I was trying to be delicate. MIKE DUNCAN: Oh, yeah. Dude, people are flicking matches at a tinderbox. right now. JON STEWART: Mike, I was trying to be coy! MIKE DUNCAN: Now whether or not it's going to go off, nobody knows, but dude, yeah, we're-- dude, we're there. We've been there for years. TONY GILROY: Where has all the karma gone? I mean, that's what I want to know. It's really--. MIKE DUNCAN: Yeah, dude, it sucks. TONY GILROY: I wondered if this question was going to come up.

JON STEWART: That's what I've been leading. up to, for God's sakes. TONY GILROY: Because it is the inert sort of muffled response. that we've just had, the sort of stunned past six. months is just--. it would be-- it'd be really interesting to hear Mike's. podcast in 75 years about this moment, what it would be like, how he would cover for, like, six months, it's just like, nothing happened. I mean, people just--. So, yeah, it is getting packed, man.

It's packed. MIKE DUNCAN: We're currently in about, I don't know, episode 13 or 14 of a treatment of the revolutionary. upheavals of the, you know, middle 21st century. TONY GILROY: Maybe. MIKE DUNCAN: Basically, like my point. is that if something broke out tomorrow, it would be the easiest thing in the world to explain. the big major structural forces and, like, individual incidents. that brought us to this point. It would be very easy to tell that story. JON STEWART: Right. TONY GILROY: And it's not hard to predict what the--.

I mean, if I was-- people talk about the predictive quality. of the show. Oh, the show is like-- and we're even--. I mean, we were--. you know, I've been ducking those questions for--. for months while we've been out selling. I'm a little bit more--. I'm a little bit more freed up at this point. But, I mean, as the show started to click out, all these things started to happen. We have Ghorman and the mineral rights, and that happens right when Greenland happens. And we have the immigration issue, and we have ICE, and we have the senator from Iran arrested from the Senate.

at the same time that Padilla is being arrested from the--. JON STEWART: Right. TONY GILROY: And we're like, oh my God. You know. All right, so if we're so predictive, it's really-- you know, it's not. hard to predict a couple of things that are. going to definitely happen. I mean, I'm shocked that there has. not been an immigration Kent State moment at this point. I mean, that just seems inevitable. Something-- MIKE DUNCAN: Sure. TONY GILROY: --bad is absolutely. going to happen at an ICE--. and an ICE conflict. And-- and whether it's false flag. or whether it's an accident or whether it's fully motivated,

that's going to happen. That's going to trigger martial law or an attempt at it. JON STEWART: A reaction. Right. TONY GILROY: That's going to-- totally. Totally trip that. JON STEWART: And we always forget--. and you think about Kent State and you think, oh, that's the moment that the revolution, but in truth, public opinion--. and we had talked about this previously, I think, with another guest. The public opinion after Kent State was, fuck those students. And there was the Hardhat--. generally in this country, there were--.

Nixon played that-- there were the Hardhat Riots in--. in New York where they literally went into, like, a college--. TONY GILROY: Yeah, but I think it hardened--. it hardened each side. It hardened each side. JON STEWART: I would agree with that. But it-- what you would think is it would have--. it would have lit a fire under a popular uprising in a way. that didn't occur because of the view. that law and order was under attack. and that Kent State represented chaos.

That the society led in there. And that's-- you know, when I look at MacArthur Park, you see a tank and a bunch of guys rolling through there. When I look at what's happening to press freedom. and those other things, it's hard to contextualize. it in the pantheon of moments that lead to revolution. Like, Mike, is the bar to revolution in a society like. ours higher than it was in the 1800s.

where society's maybe not as industrialized, not as developed? Was it easier to inflame revolution then? MIKE DUNCAN: I don't know if it was easier. or harder by comparison. The United States of America right now. does not seem particularly primed for a giant. revolution, honestly. Like, I think the thing that we are dealing with right now. is not like, are we on the verge. of revolutionary upheaval? I don't see that.

Are we on the verge of civil conflict? Yes. Are we on the verge of a regime actually. succeeding at planting itself in an authoritarian way. and just getting away with that? Yeah. That's absolutely the thing that I'm. most afraid of because I don't see. the kind of large-scale, aggressive action. that would make me think that a revolution is on the way. I certainly do not see the disaffected elites being. willing to do anything outside of their comfort zone, which is something that I think is.

essential for any revolutionary project and that's--. Tony nailed this one you know, with the Mon. Mothmas of the world. Like, what are the Mon Mothmas of the world doing right now? They're certainly not engaged in revolutionary upheaval. We just had a guy get elected--. or he's about to be elected as Mayor of New York, and everybody's just, like, wanting to turn on him. and, like, talk about his SAT scores because one of the great. obsessions going-- speaking of Kent State, like, one of the great obsessions of American--. JON STEWART: And which box he checked on his Columbia--. MIKE DUNCAN: Yeah. Like, one of the great obsessions.

of American elites is-- is, like, elite college admissions. Like, it's so crazy how obsessed people are with, like, elite college behavior. So I don't see those things. JON STEWART: That's interesting. Tony, talk about Mon Mothma, because what a crucial figure. Revolutions were sort of steeped. in this mythology that revolutions. are from the ground-up. But it really isn't that way without the elites. TONY GILROY: I was also really fascinated. She started-- I mean, I was also really fascinated. with the-- you know, the early Christians that-- that started,

you know, bringing down the Roman Empire who. began to be elites, who began to believe in Christianity, and became undermining the power structure. I thought the Baader-Meinhof group. was always really interesting. I thought Red Brigade and wealth--. And the idea of also money, I really. wanted to get, very initially, revolutions really need money. I have a question for Mike, though. I'm really curious what you just said before. Do you think--. I see-- I'm curious whether--. it seems to me there's two authoritarian efforts. going on simultaneously.

It seems to me that you have the one. that you know about with the Emperor. Palpatine in the White House. But it seems to me that there's a tech reich. MIKE DUNCAN: Oh, God. Man, yeah. Jesus Christ, yeah. TONY GILROY: That's simultaneously. on a parallel track that's, like-- that's using him. as a host organism and using that clown car of all. these other idiots and just, like, just. sort of quietly cooking along. JON STEWART: That's interesting. TONY GILROY: --everything they want. And, like, I don't know whether I can think of another comp.

on his list of revolutions where you have, you know, a shadow authority that's really. actually more frightening, probably, than the idiots that are--. I still adhere to the-- the clown car idiot stumblebum. I don't think they're in charge of anything. other than staying out of jail, so--. JON STEWART: Right. TONY GILROY: But the other thing is really terrifying, this tech reich that's just--. they have wide open field now. Is there a comp in history where there's been two--.

I don't know. MIKE DUNCAN: Man, that's a really good. question, but I completely--. I mean, Peter Thiel is more frightening than anybody. else that's out there. JON STEWART: Did you see his interview with Ross Douthat. of The Times where he said-- he asked him, should humanity survive? And there's this really long--. they're talking about how Greta Thunberg might be. the Antichrist and there's all these other things, and they say, should humanity survive? And there's a heavy silence. And in that moment, you're just like, oh, my God, this is the guy we just gave his company all of our data?

What are we--. TONY GILROY: This is the guy who eats Bond villains, man. He is, like-- MIKE DUNCAN: Yeah. TONY GILROY: He is--. MIKE DUNCAN: Because-- and that's-- and that's the social. and economic world that we all live in, right? We're all attached to our phones, we're all attached to the internet. Like, everything runs through them. And, yeah, Silicon Valley, there's. a wing of Silicon Valley that is developing and has developed. a deeply anti-democratic and deeply anti-human. ideology that they just want to kind of like float above it all.

and they do not care what happens to the rest of us. JON STEWART: Transhumanism, let's go to Mars. TONY GILROY: So maybe they want a revolution. Maybe it's in their best interest that in two years, there is a revolution, you know? MIKE DUNCAN: Mm-hmm. JON STEWART: Which goes back to kind of our original talk. about cynicism. Who's conducting? TONY GILROY: OK, I'll write my next season, then. JON STEWART: Yeah. TONY GILROY: The next season is that--. that Kent State happens on the eve of the elections, and he cancels the elections and he declares martial law, and who's really happy is, you know, the guy. who owns Palantir, you know? JON STEWART: Right. Mike, is there-- do you find, in these moments of revolution,

what do changes in either technology or, you know, the way that we go from agrarian societies. to industrialized societies, we go from lack of communication. to a printing press, what do these kinds of really. transformational moments in the way that we live, does that sow a certain instability. and create more opportunity for these revolutions?

More opportunity for people to weaponize. these new technologies or these new industrials? What have you seen with that? MIKE DUNCAN: Oh, yeah. 100%. I mean-- because it can be big stuff like--. I mean, industrialization is transferring, like, agrarian. and old feudal societies into something new, and that creates different incentives, it creates different elites. That's one of the big ones. It creates a whole new set of elites who are making. money off something that-- JON STEWART: Oh, right.

MIKE DUNCAN: --be able to make--. JON STEWART: And narrows the-- and narrows it. MIKE DUNCAN: Yep. Then you have people living in completely different. environments than their parents were, and usually the first run of things. is going to be very exploitive towards, like, the peasants who are coming into the factories. Like, is it better? A little bit. Yeah, you make a little bit more money, but, like, it's awful, it's brutal, it's exploitative. And so those things-- yeah. Those-- that churns discontentment, and that churns. chaos inside of the society. That's the big stuff.

And then also, like, you know, changes. in communications technology. JON STEWART: Right. MIKE DUNCAN: The way that we spread ideas, the way that we. share ideas, like, if you don't have a printing press. and then you do have a printing press, the big thing about this. is when you get that first wave of the printing press, like, things are just hitting the market. Things are just being said and thrown out there, and ideas that you've never been. able to confront or think about before. are suddenly in front of your face. The French Revolution basically invents. daily journalism, right? That didn't really exist before the French Revolution, which.

people are just trying to chronicle. events in real time-and spread, you know, pamphlets and newsletters, but because there was something. new happening, like, every single day, there was always something to comment on. And nobody had ever dealt with that kind. of flood of paper before, right? and you can't censor that. You can't control that as the regime. And so what we find in basically all states--. and really, if you start getting down to, like, what are the, like, the basic causes of revolution? And a lot of it is a state's inability to adapt.

to changing circumstances. And if the state can adapt to the changing circumstances, if it can co-opt these new elites, if it can maybe ameliorate a little. bit the suffering of these people, if it can make this change--. OK, there's a-- like in Britain, there's a huge middle class that isn't allowed to vote, and they're starting to get really restless, so let's give them the vote. And those changes are the things that really. head off, like, revolution. TONY GILROY: Or a really big mistake. Or a really big mistake.

JON STEWART: Elaborate on that, Tony. Right. TONY GILROY: Well, I mean, Mike can. give the historical comments, but, like, you know, a breakout virus in February that we didn't prepare. for because we have, you know, Captain. Crunch is the head of the FDA. JON STEWART: Right. Something could lgiht the box, yeah. TONY GILROY: Yeah. I mean--. JON STEWART: Right. TONY GILROY: Good luck, then you'll have a revolution. There are comps-- I'm trying to think what--. I mean, there's-- some of these are filled with. so many mistakes, all these--. I mean, the czars and--.

I mean, they all just--. I mean, but a big mistake--. World War I was a mistake for Russia, right? MIKE DUNCAN: Yep. JON STEWART: Right. MIKE DUNCAN: Oh, sure it was. TONY GILROY: I mean, if they didn't do that-- if Russia had. stayed out, they would been cool, everything would have been fine. MIKE DUNCAN: And this is, like, the big takeaway. from revolutions that people know is my great idiot. theory of revolution. JON STEWART: Yes. MIKE DUNCAN: Which is-- right? Which is not the great man theory, but, like--. JON STEWART: Yes. MIKE DUNCAN: It does take a certain kind of moron. to, like, actually blow it so bad that you get overthrown. These are some of the dumbest motherfuckers. I have ever met in my life.

JON STEWART: Well, watching-- when you listen to your podcast. on-- on Rome, watching in slow motion, the Romans destroying this 100-year. period of more egalitarian, more democratic, more--. to watch them destroy it by just taking away farmland, and you're just-- you're watching it in slow motion. going, why would you do that? MIKE DUNCAN: Why are you doing this? And-- I mean, Charles I, who was the first sort of-- and he. wound up being the sort of prototype for all. my future leaders that get overthrown-- this is. during, like, the Cromwell era in England,

like, nobody wanted to chop his head off. Like, nobody wanted to kill him. TONY GILROY: I know. MIKE DUNCAN: They just wanted some reform. All they wanted was, like, we just want parliament. to control the budget and maybe, like, have a veto over war and peace, and he's just, like--. JON STEWART: We're not looking to decapitate! MIKE DUNCAN: Yeah. Like, I can't do that, so, like, they. had to chop his head off. In the end, like, nobody wanted that. TONY GILROY: He really--. he takes the cake, he really does. MIKE DUNCAN: Oh yeah. Yeah, he does. And then-- and then when I-- and then. it was cool because that was the very first season. And then I see that behavior, like, over and over. and over again.

Like, the Revolution of 1830, which. is-- that's another Charles-- like, don't have King Charleses. [LAUGHTER]. Is, like, one of the lessons-- that's one of the lessons--. yeah, one of the lessons of revolutions, was don't have Charles. But, like, there was no reason for him to get overthrown. He-- he drops these four ordinances, like, in the middle of the night, basically, like, nullifying the elections. and canceling free speech. And really, what gets Paris going in 1830 is, like, the printers have all just been put out of a job, and they're the ones who are the most pissed off.

and the ones who are going into the streets. The British government that is running the North American. colonies, like, after the Seven Years' War just. fumbled away those colonies. Like, there is no reason for them. to have been so obtuse politically that they. wind up losing control of the Eastern. Seaboard of North America. These are mistakes that are being made. JON STEWART: How do you not know we don't love tea? We love tea! How do you not know-- why would you make it more expensive? MIKE DUNCAN: Yeah.

Like, these are mistakes that are being made. And so you don't get revolutions. usually against some hyper-competent. tyrannical government. It's not just the fact that they're a dictatorship. or there's a lot of repression that's going on. It's because that you need that structure, and also somebody who's running it really badly. So much so that the elites inside of that-- because as. long as the elites are together, like, there's not going to be a revolution, but if you get somebody who's really doing a bad job, then other elites are going to be like, we are really frustrated with you. and we would like you to go now, please.

JON STEWART: And it is-- in some ways, it is like watching a movie, Tony, in that-- or even a horror movie where you're just like, don't go in the house. MIKE DUNCAN: Yes. JON STEWART: Like, don't drop those ordinances. Please don't consolidate the farmland. Like, you're just shouting at these dudes not to do that. But I wonder, in a parallel to now, isn't there anybody within the government going, don't militarize our cities?

Just because you need vindication. over those you don't think voted for you, don't--. this revenge fantasy is going to--. that's how I feel right now, like we're. watching this in slow motion. TONY GILROY: I do not know how--. as sophisticated as I may appear and as educated. or-- or not or--. I still-- you'd be shocked at how baffled I am by--. I still do not understand people who do things that they.

know are wrong when the cost is not like your children's. hand or something, or your--. I don't understand the lack of--. and collective and not-- it's not a collective, now it's like a--. it's stadiums full of people doing what they know is wrong, and just doing it and going along. And nobody's standing up. And I'm just fascinated by that. I don't know how to package that. I don't know if that's-- it's hard to see an historical comp.

for that because I've never seen anything in any other show. that's like-- that's on that scale, but there's an entire. city now. There's-- all of our--. I mean, so many people in America. are doing things that they actually know are wrong. They know it. JON STEWART: Mike, does that stem from--. as you watch their history, as long as they're doing it. to the right people, as long as the bad actions are. being exercised on the so-called deserving.

enemies of the state--. MIKE DUNCAN: Yep. JON STEWART: --is that how this tends to propagate? TONY GILROY: I hope that's the answer. MIKE DUNCAN: I mean, dude, it sure seems like it. because, you know, like, I'm--. I'm not too far off because I have studied all of this. history, and yet, I've come into the last, like 10, 15 years of politics and, you know--. like, I cut my teeth during the Bush years, and during--. like, the build-up-- the, like, selling of the Iraq War. TONY GILROY: And de-Baathifying a country, and, oh, that turns into an insurgency. MIKE DUNCAN: Let's just haul off, invade, and occupy an entire country, let's just do it. And-- like, this is getting like 90% approval.

Like-- yeah, people will buy into those things. And they will go along with them. And I think that, like--. you know, to be, like-- not-- not to be a downer, but like if Trump had never gotten into the tariff business. and really started poking at, like, the economic parts of the empire, if he had stuck strictly-- which I think he's doing now. If he'd stuck strictly to just, like, let's just, like--. JON STEWART: Cultural moments. MIKE DUNCAN: Terrorize and drive out. all of people who are Hispanic or people who are Muslim. and just target them, America was going along with that.

American elites were going along with that, the American Public was going along with that, and it would have worked pretty seamlessly. And then if they slow-rolled this a little bit more, if they had waited before they started going after the ice. cream vendor who's been there for 30 years, and all these other, like, beloved parts of the community, I think the United States of America goes along with it. JON STEWART: In total, yeah. And it has broad approval. I've always said, they didn't-- they. didn't vote for foreign wars, they voted for civil war. I mean, in many respects, that's what they're after.

MIKE DUNCAN: And to-- to Andor, we can kind of. tie these things together. Like, Palpatine is being a great idiot, like, when he. gets going on the Death Star. The Death Star is stupid. Like, the Death Star does not need to be there. I think that the Empire, as such, could have insidiously moved from system to system, a little bit here, a little bit there, built it up. The next thing you know, like, you're. paying taxes to the Empire, you're. paying taxes to the Empire. But he gets going on this, like, huge dramatic fantasy of,

like, having a big orb in space that, like, blows up planets. And that's what leads to, like, the Ghorman massacre. And one of those little bits of point, like, in the cannon. along the way is that the Ghorman massacre, like, triggers these systems to go into revolt. and it creates a dramatic moment that did not--. that did not need to happen. And I was skeptical, I think, early. on of how quickly the Empire was supposed to take place. between, like, the Prequel movies and the Original Trilogy. because I was like, that's such a short amount of time. Like, it's only like 19 years.

Like, it felt in the first movie. like they'd been around forever. And now having watched Andor at the same time. that I'm watching what's going on in the United States, I'm like, oh, 19 years. No, that tracks. Yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's about right. JON STEWART: It's actually two decades is a wildly long time. MIKE DUNCAN: Yeah. That's actually kind of a long time. Yeah, it's-- it's a bit of a long time. JON STEWART: And that's the weird thing about history. When you deconstruct it, if you look at it on the overall, you think, oh, it's--. but if you take core samples, there's really--. the only core samples that you'll get. is, like, seven to eight years of peace and stability.

in a moment. Like, the-- the moment you widen out the time horizon, you see that these things happen really. quickly and really violently. And I want to end it with, you know, we talked about deconstructing revolution, reconstructing them for art. You've done that now, Mike, with The Martian Revolution. And I thought what was so brilliant about that. is it's fiction, but it's almost more predictive now.

that your fiction predicts the time we're living in now. in a really prescient way. And I wanted you to talk about that a little bit, just--. and you, too, Tony, of, are you surprised at the works. that you've both created out of examining behavior. and out of examining the way that people might be turned.

into something that's different from who they were, the journey that their characters might be taking. is actually more predictive of the moment. we're living in than the news? MIKE DUNCAN: Well, yeah. And when I was writing-- so I wrote The Martian Revolution--. it's 29 episodes long and I started it back in October. And then was coming out with early episodes of stuff. that I'd plotted out kind of for years, like, things that I wanted to happen mostly because I wanted. to, like, critique, as you said, like, the tech oligarch part of society.

that I'm really scared of. And so there's-- like, there's a monopoly corporation. and there's an idiot that's running it. that's doing all these things. But there-- there was meant to be, inside of this--. like, one of the things those guys do. is they just come in, like--. you know, like private equity-style, and they just buy something and then they. just fire a bunch of people. JON STEWART: Right. MIKE DUNCAN: And so that's a part. of what's going on on Mars, is like mass indiscriminate. firings that they don't know, like, who does. what, how or why they do it. And then--. JON STEWART: It's like a DOGE. MIKE DUNCAN: Yeah. And then-- I mean, literally, like three weeks later,

they're starting up DOGE, and I'm like, I do not like this at all. And then there was also meant to be, like--. and again, I started this project like--. I did not-- look, I did not think Trump was. going to win that election. I had, I guess, one last shred of naive. hope that we wouldn't do this. And so once all those people get fired on Mars, there's a mass deportation business. to all of this where they are coming around. and they are rounding up these people. because if you don't have a job on Mars, you've got to get off of Mars, and so, like, mass deportations. are a part of it. And then several weeks after I drop those episodes,

suddenly we're doing, you know, mass deportations in America. So I did not enjoy controlling the lathe of heaven. I don't know, like, how Tony felt about it. Like, I certainly--. I certainly started writing different things--. TONY GILROY: You know, I just go to the basement. JON STEWART: Tony, I'm literally. watching Andor's mining resources underneath Ghorman, the materials that they need to fuel. the Death Star as they're signing the mineral. agreement in Ukraine.

It's happening as I'm watching it. TONY GILROY: I mean, you're asking how it--. I mean, mostly it makes me--. my overwhelming feeling over the past three. months and going out and sell the show is really--. it's-- it's--. it's sadness. I mean, it's sad-- there's a really-- there's a--. Tolkien had a whole thing about--. he didn't like allegory. He didn't like people making comps to his work. to World War-- but he was really into applicability.

He wanted it to be applicable to your life. So, I'm not exactly sure how wide that--. that-- he takes that term, but to me, it's been shocking to go around the world--. we went around the world selling the show, and every place we went, because I. really didn't want to--. particularly in the beginning, I. didn't want to have the show get ghettoized by being left. or right or political or whatever, I was really--. we were really surfing through. But every journalist, every interview that we did,

everywhere we went, people were finding ways to take things--. the same incident and make it applicable for them. Oh, this is Gaza, this is Ukraine, this is Northern Ireland, this--. this is me, man. This is me. This is us. And that's-- I--. it's very sad. I do worry-- as I said before, I do worry that--. that we're into a different-- or into a different situation. with tech. I wonder if, like--.

if our fallacy is that we've been going along going, oh, here's all these revolutions, and we know everything about a revolution, and Mike's done all these shows about it, and Tony's written all this stuff, and it's all codified, and you just pick one from column A, from column B. I wonder if-- if there isn't another page in the book. that we haven't seen, and that's the book-- that's. the page that we're on now, and that-- that's the one. that worries me the most. Well, then the tech side of it, the AI side of it, and the--. the lack of any kind of accountability to that is--.

that's what-- that-- that's what would keep me up. at night more than anything. JON STEWART: I think you're absolutely right, and I think, you know, like we talked. about earlier, these new communications. and these new technologies are wildly disruptive. And I think if I were going to take maybe a hopeful. sign of it, it's that to me--. and maybe to you guys, I don't know how you interact with it, it is novel and it is alien. And I don't-- and I find it discomfiting in a way that. surprises me, but my hope is that for my kids,

and maybe even for their kids, their adaptation to it, that it will be native, and it will be less destructive. That their brains-- that the human instinct will be-- when. we talk about the printing press comes in, and everybody thinks, and that ushered in the Enlightenment. But what they forget is, it actually ushered in 100 years, like, fucking killing witches. Like, it just-- it ramped up people.

into all kinds of prejudices. But the hope is is that people's brains--. MIKE DUNCAN: Yeah. Dude, Mike and Tony just both heaved huge sighs. Like, is that how we're going to end this? The two of us being, like--. JON STEWART: Come on, man! I'm trying to bring us into a fucking--. TONY GILROY: You know, Mike and I are going to--. we have to go-- we have some prepping to do. We have to go back to our prepper basements. MIKE DUNCAN: Yeah. I gotta-- yeah, I gotta work on my bunker here. TONY GILROY: I gotta go to the bunker. JON STEWART: I'm talking about our ability to evolve. Come on!

MIKE DUNCAN: Yeah, look, I will say one thing, though, because one of the things--. I mean, we didn't touch on this, but, like, Andor dropped into this moment that. is talking about resistance to a creeping. authoritarian regime. JON STEWART: Yes. MIKE DUNCAN: That text becomes a part of. this political moment, right? The fact that that was given to people right now. in this moment, like, however few or many. actually read it and hear it, people. are processing what is happening right now in politics. through Andor. Like, I go to protests and I see signs that say. "I have friends everywhere.". Like, that stuff is out there in--.

it's out there, and you do see it. And I got friends everywhere. TONY GILROY: Yeah. Well, I mean, I'll go with that hope. JON STEWART: There you go, Tony. And your show-- and Mike, your podcast, become part of my kids' brains' ability. to evolve to this moment in a more resilient way. I truly mean that. I'm not trying to, like, fucking kiss your ass here, but, like, I truly believe that the work that you're doing,

Tony, and the work that you're doing, Mike, goes into their brains. And it does change the way that they interact. with tech in this moment. TONY GILROY: Well--. JON STEWART: And it's a positive. TONY GILROY: I'm glad I was young when I was young. JON STEWART: That's-- that's a good point. MIKE DUNCAN: Yeah, the '90s were good. It was--. JON STEWART: The '90s were good. But remember, too-- and this is the thing we forget, we thought the world was spinning out of control then, man, I grew up-- every good person this country produced.

got fucking shot in the head. Like-- TONY GILROY: I know. MIKE DUNCAN: Mm-hmm. JON STEWART: You know, look, we have. to remain that-- that strong. And I so appreciate you guys doing the work that you do. It's-- it's so engrossing and such a pleasure to-- to watch. and feel-- and it's so just thorough and all encompassing. and real and not contrived. And I just appreciate you both really, truly tremendously, and and thank you both for adding good things.

into this sickly soup. But we're we're honored to have Tony Gilroy, who obviously. created Andor and so many other wonderful things; Mike Duncan, bestselling author, creator, History of Rome, Revolutions Podcast. Guys, thank you so much for-- for spending the time, I really appreciate it. TONY GILROY: My pleasure. MIKE DUNCAN: Thanks very much, yeah. JON STEWART: Damn, I love those guys. GILLIAN SPEAR: It's so good. JON STEWART: It's-- it's wild to-- to-- to--.

to see how intentional they are about everything. that they layer into their work, how carefully--. GILLIAN SPEAR: Tablespoon by tablespoon as they said, yeah. JON STEWART: I think it might even be teaspoon by teaspoon. I think it might even be smaller. I think a tablespoon is-- is almost a cudgel. LAUREN WALKER: A little heavy-handed. JON STEWART: It's a little heavy. It's-- it's a little heavy-handed. But how about the--. I don't even know if this was on the air, but, like, at the end, they were both, like, exchanging numbers. Like, it was-- BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Aww.

It was so cool. LAUREN WALKER: You set them up, Jon. JON STEWART: I set them up! LAUREN WALKER: --matchmaker. JON STEWART: Right? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Me next. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah. LAUREN WALKER: Yeah. JON STEWART: But-- but so good and-- and so interesting. And so interesting how, you know--. I think for Tony, like, I think he's so used to, like, selling. Andor as, yes, the character-- like, so to get an opportunity to, like, hang with Mike, talk about it as an allegory. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yes. JON STEWART: And to talk about it through history,

it seemed like-- GILLIAN SPEAR: Applicable. JON STEWART: He seemed pleased. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah, he did, yeah. I mean, the show obviously resonated so much with, you know-- everyone wants to apply it to the moment. that you're in, but just hearing them zoom out, too, and, like--. like, what a student of history they both are. It was so satisfying, I guess, just to hear them sort of, like, build that narrative, layer it on top of all. of these, like, very real--. JON STEWART: That's right. LAUREN WALKER: And to hear from them.

exactly why their work seems predictive to us. is because it's not new. Because there are these patterns. JON STEWART: But I also love how-- how precise they are. Like, when you say to him, like, when you think about their motivations, and he's, like, eh, not motivations. Behavior. Like, they're really--. I think-- whenever I talk to people whose work I really. admire, I'm always struck by the precision. in which they operate. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah. That comes through in both of their works so clearly. JON STEWART: Right? Fantastic.

I'm so glad to-- to get a chance to do that. I don't know who put them together--. it's probably Caity Gray. Her and her putting people together and all those things. GILLIAN SPEAR: She's the matchmaker. JON STEWART: Brittany, what do we-- what do we. got for our questions today? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Jon, you once compared. Dick Cheney to Darth Vader. JON STEWART: Yeah. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: What Star Wars character. would Stephen Miller be? JON STEWART: Oh, Jesus. I don't even know if there's a--. I don't know that that universe has conjured up--.

I think it would probably be-- you know, one. of those characters that they mentioned, but, you know, like Darth Sidious. Like, one of those that's like, (OMINOUSLY) and my teacher. taught me--. taught me the power over life and death. His name was Sidious. It's one of-- and it would be a sibilant. There would always be that like "sss". in one of those characters. It would be-- yeah. GILLIAN SPEAR: I feel like we got-- when Tony said, like, the characters that are interesting to write, you know,

the Nazis that are, like, the clock-punchers and stuff, like, Stephen Miller, you're not interesting enough. to write, I don't think. You're too despicable. JON STEWART: Yeah. And also almost too much two-dimensional. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah. JON STEWART: Like, you can't even. see him in Inglourious Basterds where he's like, wait, wait, we have to wait for the cream for the strudel. You know what I mean? Like, you can't even do that shit. Like, it just-- all right. What else we got? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: All right. The Democrats launched plans for Project 2029. Do you think they finally figured out how to win? Copycatting-- JON STEWART: No. It's all--.

BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: --going on podcasts? JON STEWART: Because their 2029 is so fucking idiotic, and it's the same idiots that put. together all the plans that haven't. worked out in the first place. They're not understanding where the energy and--. and the-- the desire rests in this country. They have no idea. They are looking in the wrong place, and their Project 2029 is going to be a rehash of all. the consultant-driven, careful nonsense that has put.

them in this place of-- that--. in a moment when the Republican Congress is passing one. of the most devastating bills that we have seen. in this country in forever to just put out pictures of Hakeem. Jeffries from an angle that makes him look six years old. holding a baseball bat, and you're like-- it doesn't look. like you're going to fight, it looks. like you're going to tee ball. And-- and that's where they're all going. So, you know, hopefully this Project 2029 that they've done.

is just a draft on a Google Doc that they. can put into Edit mode and have people go in there and--. and make some real changes, and hopefully. understand the desperation of the moment. that people are feeling because right now--. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Do you think. anyone's getting it right? JON STEWART: Yeah. I think there are a lot of young people. who's much more populist campaigns--. I mean, obviously Mamdani is getting all the attention.

in New York, and for very good reasons, but there's a lot of young candidates that are--. it's not even about the savvy in which. they use social media or the way that they've. gotten attention. It's the burning, I think, authenticity of how they feel. about the inequities and upside-down nature of the. society that we're building. GILLIAN SPEAR: Mm-hmm. JON STEWART: Like we talked about in the podcast. When you start consolidating and taking people's farmland.

and just creating more and more elites. with larger and larger farmland, that's a recipe for stupidity. And so seeing the bottom-up energy. of some of these candidates, I think they're getting it right. They're not being, I think, in any way nurtured. or helped by the party elites. In fact, I think they're being resisted, and I think it's stupidity and suicidal on the part.

of the party elites. I think they're making a huge mistake. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah. It's both shocking and unsurprising. to watch the Democrats respond to all of this this way. JON STEWART: Right. I mean, they're trying to discredit it. LAUREN WALKER: But there's such a shocking disparity. between the authenticity-- like, you're juxtaposing, let's say, Mamdani speaking to camera talking with, you know, so much, like, expertise and feeling about things that. affect the city-- like a plate of food, how much does this cost? And juxtapose that with a single picture that.

was, you know, canned and-- I don't know. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: It's not produced. LAUREN WALKER: There's just a stark difference between even. the message and how it's being said, not just the capturing on social media, even. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Totally. JON STEWART: Well, It's like anything else. The Project '29 they're doing and the party elites. smack of what is so inauthentic about, like, taglines on movies. Like, you know, it--.

and people feel it. It's not of a reality, it's of a process. that is put into place by people who don't experience. reality to try and describe what they think. will be a winning message. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yes. JON STEWART: As opposed to taking. in the reality of the emotions and channeling. those into positive, you know, change for people. And I think you're exactly right, Lauren, about the specificity of of Mamdani when he talks. It's not just platitudes about affordability,

it's really deconstructing how that inaffordability. has been created, and how we might battle back. LAUREN WALKER: Yeah. It just shows people how their city works more. I think there's a point to that. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah. Policies he understands and believes in. Who would have thought that would be a winning recipe? JON STEWART: As they say, so you're saying. the strategy is authenticity? I like it. I like the cut of your jib.

Very, very nice program. Thank you, guys, as always, for putting together just a banger. I really love talking to those guys. Lead producer, Lauren Walker. Producer, Brittany Mehmedovic. Video editor and engineer, Rob Vitolo. audio editor and engineer, Nicole Boyce. Researcher and associate producer, Gillian Spear, Executive producer. is Chris McShane and Caity Gray. And we will see you guys next week. Bye-bye. The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart. is a Comedy Central podcast that's produced by Paramount.

Audio and Busboy Productions. [THEME MUSIC].