American “Heritage” vs. American History | The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart

DR. ALLEN GUELZO: The American experiment. It is a risk that we take, but it's a risk because we believe. that there is something higher and nobler. that we can appeal to in our common lives together. JOANNE FREEMAN: That's the we. That should be the we. JON STEWART: That's the we. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: That's it. JOANNE FREEMAN: That should be what brings us together, is that understanding that-- and we. don't-- we're not going to all agree. on where we should be going. JON STEWART: I'm getting chills, guys. Keep going. I'm getting chills. Wait, let me get my fife. Doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo.

[THEME MUSIC]. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back. to The Weekly Show Podcast. My name is Jon Stewart. We have been gone a week. It was obviously a holiday week, the Thanksgiving holiday, where we all sat down and ate delicious food and watched. football games and tried not to think about what it's actually. about, because that's--. but it's so apropos to a new national conversation.

that is brewing in this country about who is America? What is America? Who belongs here? Who doesn't belong here? Clearly, the president has ideas. and states them with such grace from the Oval Office. But I thought, boy, wouldn't it be. nice to get a little bit of nuance. into this conversation with people who understand what we. were at our founding, who we were at our founding, what we. were meant to be, and how it grew from there.

and the different times within our history. where the arguments over who we are. and where we should come from and what America actually means. and who it belongs to really bubbled. out into the public sphere? So we are going to jump right in with that. Both guests are just so erudite and knowledgeable. within this sphere, so we're just. going to jump in with them. Here they are. [THEME MUSIC].

OK, folks. So we are delighted today to be joined by Dr. Allen Guelzo, Professor of Humanities at the University of Florida, and Joanne Freeman, Professor of History. and American Studies at Yale University. and host of History Matters. Guys, thank you both very much for joining us. The discussion today is who is America? What are we actually? There seems to be, as we enter this draconian immigration.

enforcement period, and a much more. of a sense of this new terminology of heritage. Americans having being slightly above the rabble. of other Americans. I guess the discussion today should probably. start in defining this idea. Is heritage American, is that defined.

through a religious lens? Is it through an ethnic lens? Is it through just purely a time lens? Joanne, what's your understanding of what. heritage American even means? JOANNE FREEMAN: Well, my understanding, based on what. I've seen the people who are using it, is, fundamentally, it says you are a heritage American if you. trace yourself and your roots back in American history. to a certain degree. I think your question about lenses,

there are different lenses. I think some people would argue it goes back. to Anglo-Protestant idea of what America. is that goes all the way back. Some would argue that, although it's. not put this explicitly, that there's a white component. So if you look at the long history of America, as far as nativism goes and as far as white nationalism go, that term certainly plugs into a lot of that. JON STEWART: But those are certainly two. very different things. They're very different things.

So I guess the more benign definition of it is, well, we're seeing it through a lens of those that have been. here longer, whereas the more maybe loaded one is, yeah, it's for white people. It's a nationalist-- JOANNE FREEMAN: Yes. JON STEWART: Like we're looking for white people. Allen, what's your understanding. of how that's being used now? And is it being used cynically? DR. ALLEN GUELZO: I'm tempted to say cynically. because I don't think--. I don't have a sense that the people who. are using this kind of terminology, or trying to formulate these kinds of ideas, really.

have a particularly serious grasp of this heritage thing. they're talking about. If we want to talk about an American heritage, it seems to me the most obvious-- the two most. obvious things are the Declaration of Independence. and the Constitution. And neither one nor the other tell. us anything about where people are supposed to have come from. or what their lineage is, or how long they're supposed. to have been here to qualify. Sometimes it said that it takes 1,200. years to make somebody French.

JON STEWART: What? They have to age it like Rockford? DR. ALLEN GUELZO: Exactly. JON STEWART: Why would they do that? JOANNE FREEMAN: Depending on where in France. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: You've got to get. through an entire wine cellar. But in America, you can become an American in 20 minutes. You read the Declaration, you read. the Constitution, you sign on. JON STEWART: You understand it. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: You're in. That's it. My favorite example of this is my great-grandfather. from Sweden. He emigrated in the 1880s.

He could not wait to abjure the King of Sweden. He wanted to be an American even before he left. the shores of Scandinavia. He wrote out longhand, in pencil, the Declaration of Independence, the Gettysburg Address. He had no use for monarchs and aristocrats. I have another great-grandfather. who departed from Bavaria in the 1890s, came to Chicago.

A little classic Jewish tailor. He had come from a small town just West of Munich. called Dachau. JON STEWART: Oh, Lord. And he came in the 1890s from there. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: And I am so glad he did. JON STEWART: Boy, you're not kidding. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: These are people. who wanted to be Americans, and their desire. was focused on those great documents, those great ideas of what it is that we sign on to,

which is a proposition. This is what Lincoln said at Gettysburg. How did we come into existence for a score in 70 years ago? We came conceived in this idea of liberty. and dedicated to a proposition. This is not about heritage. Anybody, anybody can lay a hands on this. And Lincoln himself-- I'm going to quote Lincoln a lot. No surprise. JON STEWART: Well, that's your bailiwick. JOANNE FREEMAN: I can come back with Hamilton. Yeah. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: All right. OK. Right. JON STEWART: Lincoln's your bailiwick.

Joanne Freeman's going to come in with Hamilton. And I'm probably going to quote Spiro Agnew. So we're going to run the gamut. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: But seriously, Hamilton is another example. Where is Hamilton born? He was not born on the Upper West Side. JON STEWART: On the islands. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: Maybe he was one on the Upper. West Side of St. Kitts. But he's in the islands. He's a bastard. I'm not using that as a pejorative term. I'm literally describing the man. JON STEWART: But this is-- it's a tension. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: And my ancestors, this is the same thing, you come and you.

find in America this openness. It is a regime of reason. It's a regime of creed. It's a regime of belief. JON STEWART: And enlightenment. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: Exactly. And people-- there was a great poem written in 1916, and it was a poem simply entitled I am an American. And the first verse of it was all about someone. who was descended from the sons of the Mayflower. and all that kind of thing. The second was about someone whose father.

had been imprisoned in Siberia, whose mother was a cast. off from the Great White Tsar. They were nothing more than a wisp of straw. But when they came to America, the wisp of straw. became a man and a woman. And that is the great--. if there is a heritage, that is the heritage. that we lay claim to. JON STEWART: It's that ideal. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: Exactly. JON STEWART: And it's fascinating.

because the tension between, as you beautifully put, Allen, the proposition that drew people versus. the idea of a kind of native definition or ethnic definition. is there from the start because, Joanne, look, we are a proposition. You can read the Declaration. But the Constitution does define white Americans as being. above other Americans.

This is not something that is born of thin air. And it seems to be the difficult question. that we have had to answer over these 250 years. And later in the discussion, we'll. walk through the way we try to answer it. with 1924 Immigration and 1965 Immigration. and all those different ways. But this idea of America as a proposition. is obviously laid out in those documents, but so is the other idea.

And how do we square that? JOANNE FREEMAN: Right. And part of the way that we square that is by acknowledging. that the ideas that the founders, "founders,". put out there into the world-- you have to say it that. way when you say the founders. The idea is that they put out into the world. were ideas that they had an understanding of, meaning they. were in a world in which they were thinking of white men. with a certain amount of property as being the people. that they were largely talking to,

but that the ideas that they gave birth to. in the Declaration of Independence, in the Constitution were ideas that were broad enough--. The human condition, they are broad ideas. that later generations, all kinds of marginalized peoples, could point to those documents and talk about those ideals. and own those ideals and, as Allen was just suggesting, use them to say, well, I'm an American too.

I understand these documents. So it isn't as though whatever the founding generation. of people thought about the boundaries of who. has certain kinds of rights and who doesn't, the ideas. that they put forth, so the proposition. that they put forth, was broad enough that it was open. I mean, so there is kind of an openness to that period. as to what an American is. It's one of the things I love about the founding period, is that they don't fully know what.

an American is at that point. JON STEWART: Did they feel homogeneous? Did they think of whiteness as a homogeneous, or did they view it as whiteness is Scotch-Irish. and German is actually not? Like, how did they view that lens, or did they literally think of it as white and Black. in the way that they framed it in the 3/5. clauses and things like that? JOANNE FREEMAN: Well, so it depends. I mean-- and this is, I'm sure, a point we're going.

to get into as we talk today. Different moments in time, different people. have been considered white or Black. JON STEWART: Right. It expands and contracts. JOANNE FREEMAN: Exactly. So in this period, sometimes people. are upset at the Germans. They're coming in here and they shouldn't be here, and they aren't us. The Irish. JON STEWART: Yes, that has happened in history. People have been upset with the Germans. JOANNE FREEMAN: I'm talking about early. JON STEWART: Early. JOANNE FREEMAN: Early, early. JON STEWART: Fair enough. Fair enough. JOANNE FREEMAN: The Irish. The Irish for a period were not considered to be white. So the founders certainly are assuming. that in the realm of political power,

they are in a white universe, but they're. also assuming that they're making. things up as they go along. They use the phrase all the time, experiment. We're engaged in an experiment in government. And they thought about things--. it was improv, which they say later. Those who managed to live to an old age, say people write to them all the time saying, tell us about the founding. And what they say, actually, Jon Adams is great on this. Over and over and over again, Jon Adams says, we didn't.

know what we were doing. We had no idea. JON STEWART: He's telling us that now? DR. ALLEN GUELZO: Yeah. Yeah. It's true. It's true. Madison makes this comment. He's writing a letter. He says, we are in a wilderness without a path. Now, he didn't mean that in a pejorative sense. He said, we really are on--. JOANNE FREEMAN: They all say that. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: --the doorstep. of something entirely new. JOANNE FREEMAN: They all say that in 1789. JON STEWART: But you didn't think at some level they knew.

that they would be deified? JOANNE FREEMAN: Well, they understood. that they were founders. And so, past a certain point, they also. understood that their reputation would be bound. up in what was happening. I mean, Thomas Jefferson really wanted to die on July 4. JON STEWART: He pulled it off. He did it. JOANNE FREEMAN: He did it. And he was semiconscious and he kept. regaining consciousness and asking people, is it the fourth yet? And they said, no. He kept going. And the fourth he came along. So they understood it to a certain degree.

they were founders. They were educated to believe-- they. were reading Plutarch's Lives of the great Greeks and Romans. The greatest thing you could do for your country. was to be a statesman, to be a founder of a nation. And they wrote all the time to each other saying, can you believe our luck? Can you believe that we're here at a moment. when we can do this? But along with that goes a huge sense of risk, contingency, responsibility. They're thinking about posterity.

And they were thinking about national identity. and national character in such a concrete way. There's a whole discussion in the first year or two. of the government in which they're worried about how. should elite politicians, how should. the people in national government actually dress? Meaning how much lace seems too aristocratic and monarchical? And the reason that matters is they. thought, well, people are going to look at us. and if we look like aristocrats, if we look like monarchists, they will think that that. is what we are as a country.

So they're really, in a really interesting self-conscious way, crafting an idea of what national character. and national identity is. JON STEWART: So as we look now as to like what is actually. the American character, they were down to like, should we wear wigs? Maybe we shouldn't wear wigs. But, Allen--. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: Wait, wait, Jon. I'm in favor of people wearing wigs. JON STEWART: Settle down, Allen. Now, this is a podcast. People can't see. We have a follically challenged American. Actually, two of them on the program today.

DR. ALLEN GUELZO: OK. JON STEWART: Allen and myself. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: That's right. [THEME MUSIC]. JON STEWART: Folks, I've gone on about this before, and I'm going to continue to go on. You tell me what I can talk about, what I can't? No, I'm going to keep talking about this. until you get this damn thing. Ground News website. It's an app, really. And it's a website and an app. It's like, what do you call it, they're Razzles. Candy and it's gum. It's a website and an app. It's a mission.

Ground News gives readers. It's easier, more data-driven way to read the news. What they do is they pull thousands of news articles. from around the world, organize them by story. Each story comes with visual breakdowns of political biases, of ownership, headlines. It is a response to fear and anger-based media, which I watch and absorb a lot, and it is slowly killing me. Ground News doesn't dictate how the readers. should think or feel. They just aggregate and they organize the information.

so you can be better informed. Go to groundnews.com/stewart. Subscribe for 40% off the unlimited access vantage. subscription for yourself, or if you send it as a gift, brings the price down to like $5 a month. That's groundnews.com/stewart, or scan the QR code on screen. [THEME MUSIC]. When we talk about that, so there is--. they were specific in their conversations about,

but they were separating, it seems, Allen, who would be a statesman, the different levels. It's not that they didn't think in terms of a caste society. They really thought no monarchs, but there were going to be elites. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: There were going to be elites because they. expected, they hoped, that the leadership. of this new experiment was going to come from people who. had education, they had talent, they had demonstrated service.

What's interesting is that it's never connected to birth. I think one of the most unusual provisions in the Constitution. is the one-- is a very brief phrase, which says there shall. be no titles of nobility, which means there's no aristocracy. It's not going to happen. So for them, all right, it's not. going to be what we might call the level playing field where. anybody can walk in, but there is an expectation.

that it is going to be open to a remarkable degree of people. who have made themselves, and no one's. a better example of that than Alexander Hamilton. Of course, that meant he was also. sometimes resented for that. JON STEWART: Well, didn't he view himself. as a kind of Renegade and, as you said. earlier, a bastard, that he felt. he had to fight to be viewed. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: Yes, he did. JON STEWART: Yeah. JOANNE FREEMAN: He actually a lot ponders. Well, towards the end of his life, he will say things like, this is really upsetting me.

And am I not an American? Why is this upsetting me more than some other Americans are? Towards the end of his life, he says, this American world was not meant for me. He always understands to a certain degree. that he isn't quite in the same place as others. He would have been called in the time. period a mushroom gentleman. JON STEWART: A mushroom gentleman. JOANNE FREEMAN: Mushroom gentleman. What that meant is--. JON STEWART: I don't want to talk. about what that means now, but talk about what it means then. JOANNE FREEMAN: That's good-- yeah.

JON STEWART: All right. JOANNE FREEMAN: What it meant was a person without roots. A person who has arrived and sprung up in the dark and we. don't know who this person is. People who are not necessarily of known background, not. necessarily elite, but who are these people? We don't know who they are. He came up out of nowhere. So he certainly would have represented. one of those people. But I want to add to what Allen said because, absolutely, they. assumed that people in power would. be a kind of an elite, not aristocrats, would be educated.

But the fundamental thing that was most experimental. about the new government was that it would. be grounded on public opinion. JON STEWART: Consent of the governed. JOANNE FREEMAN: Well, even more than that. What the public believes is what matters. What the public-- so to a greater degree than a monarchy. This is why they feared demagogues, because anyone can. get the public to think something one way or another, and can then grab the government.

and warp it into being something. it's not supposed to be. JON STEWART: That's why they valued education, I guess, to the extent that they did. JOANNE FREEMAN: Absolutely. Jefferson thought that all white men should have three. years of education because only if you're educated will you, and particularly, I should say, in history, will you recognize. the threats to the Republic and be. able to see them when they're coming. and not get taken in by them. JON STEWART: But how do you square, Allen? So just said all white men should. have three years of education.

Did they conceive of immigration? Did they see themselves as homogeneous? Did they view the fissures between, let's say, Baptist and Lutheran and Calvinist and Quaker? Did they view those fissures as anything other than just. disagreement civically, or did they see some of those things. as more uniquely American?

Did they think Protestant was American, Catholic was, well, maybe we can teach them? DR. ALLEN GUELZO: Let's take Washington--. JON STEWART: Please. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: --as an example, because Washington himself speaks to a lot of this. Washington starts off the revolution by saying, we don't want Black recruits for the Continental Army. And people come to him and say, no, no, no, that's not going to work. We're not going to be able to have a Continental. Army if that's going to be a rule, if it's going to be. an all white organization.

So that the Continental Army from very early on starts. to develop Black recruits, small Black units. By the time we get to 1777 and Burgoyne's surrender in New. York, one Hessian officer is saying, you can't go anywhere in the American encampments. and not find Black soldiers. So right away, you might say that any gesture. towards exclusion gets defeated by an American reality, and Washington yields to that. When Washington is President, the leaders.

of the Jewish congregation in Newport, Rhode Island, write to him. They're very anxious. What's going to be our future? Are we going to be part of this American experiment? And his response, which I strongly. suspect was written by Hamilton, but his response is, this government gives to bigotry. no sanction, gives to persecution no assistance, and asks only that the members of it.

behave themselves as good citizens. It's the only standard Washington lays out. JON STEWART: See, this is where I think I have--. I come up against the most difficulty that I have. So that is an absolute statement. of moral integrity squared with a gentleman who has slaves. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: That's right. JON STEWART: And this is where I think where we get hung up, is the distance between the ideals of these statements. for posterity that ring so beautifully on the long moral.

universe in the arc of history versus the reality of how. they establish the country. Look, they could have obviously established a religion. like the Church of England, but they did absolutely undercut. whatever moral imperative is in the Constitution. with the realities of forming a union. So, Joanne, explain how we're supposed to discern that now.

Is it the idea that we were supposed. to do better than them? JOANNE FREEMAN: Well, they certainly. did not assume that they were the best. and that everyone coming after them was going to be downhill. And this is part of what Adam says in his old age. when people keep saying, tell us about the founding. He essentially says, look, there. was no golden founding period. And if you think there was, you're. going to think it's all downhill from us, which is not the case. You have to judge the government. as you go forward in the way that you're.

going to judge the government. But look, for example, as to how they are squaring. things and not really. Look, as one would, at Jefferson. So Jefferson, in his old age, is asked by many. to do something, say something against slavery, come forward, endorse a project of someone who's. going to take his enslaved population out West. and then free them. And Jefferson's response is basically, on the one hand, admirable, and on the other hand, that's for future generations to take care of.

So he's sort of bowing to the idea and then stepping back. and saying, that's-- future generations. will be dealing with this, but I myself. in this moment will not. And I should say that the founders aren't one big lump. of a blob of people who agree. JON STEWART: Yeah, it's not a monolith either. JOANNE FREEMAN: And some of them are slaveholders. and some are not. But that was not something that a lot of people. actually did square.

They understood that the ideas and ideals that they were using. to found the nation were distinctive and were. different from where they had come before. and meant something different, and that a Republic. was a really different kind of government. They also were new. I mean, they used throughout the revolution, we don't want to be enslaved to England. They understood that language because they. were enslaving people. I mean, I think it's Samuel Johnson, who. says the people who are yelping loudest.

about being enslaved over there in America. are the people who own slaves. So the contradiction was really apparent. But it was, as with so many other things, to some degree, pushed off. The next generation will deal with that, people. down the road. JON STEWART: Based on the idea that the important thing. was the union. But Allen, did they then conceive, and this moves the conversation then from this idea of where. they were when they were founded into that next step, which is, and how did they believe that they would.

prosper, in the sense of, did they. conceive of immigration traditionally in the way. that we think? They came from England and, obviously, there. were Spanish colonies and obviously the French were here, and then there were Native Americans that were here, and there were slaves that were here. and various different groups. How did they perceive of the nation. growing into its clothes?

DR. ALLEN GUELZO: For the earliest generations, from the Constitutional Convention onwards, when. the rules, so to speak, are laid down, there are two minds, just as there are today. There are some people who would say, we don't want to be swamped by all these foreigners, but they are by no means the dominant voices. Overwhelmingly, the voices are, we want people to come here. because, look, we've got a lot of space. and we don't have much labor.

JON STEWART: We have openings. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: We need more hands to help, so we're going to open this up. You might say, what was the vetting process for immigrants. in, let's say, 1790? Answer, there was no vetting process. The boat would tie up at the wharf in New York. or Philadelphia, people would get off the boat. and they're gone. They're out into the landscape. There's no pressure. When Alexis de Tocqueville got off the ship in New York. in the 1830s, the first thing that.

impressed him was there was no official there to greet him. There was--. JON STEWART: No passport stamp, no line, no nothing. JOANNE FREEMAN: No real passports--. JON STEWART: No passports, nothing. JOANNE FREEMAN: --at that period in time. No. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: So you have people, yes, who are irked at the behavior of some people who they say, these are foreigners. The classic example is citizen Edmond Genet, representing the new French Republic.

and making himself obnoxious, especially. obnoxious to Washington. JON STEWART: As they do. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: And yet, at the same time, after the French Republic decides that it's going to yank. the credentials on Genet, it's very clear that they're not. going to, not only going to yank the credentials, but they're going to guillotine him when he goes back to Paris. And Washington says, no, no, no, we can't let that happen. And Genet settles in the United States, moves to upstate New York, marries the daughter. of the governor of New York, and becomes. an American citizen.

And in fact, he's still sitting on his property in the Hudson. River Valley when Alexis de Tocqueville shows up. to pay him a visit and ask him, what's it. like being French in America? The capacity of Americans to absorb this. is simply phenomenal. JON STEWART: Absorb. Boy, do I like that word absorb. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: And when you turn to Abraham Lincoln. in the 1830s and the 1840s, yes, you have nativists, you have people who are saying, we should be exclusionary,

not Lincoln. Lincoln is saying, the strength of this country. is coming from people who are coming from all over, but who are drawn, they're attracted by what he called. this electric cord, the electric cord of liberty, an electric cord, he said, that runs. through the hearts of lovers of liberty, wherever. And for him, there was simply no question. Germans in Illinois, yes. Other constituencies, yes. He's willing to speak to and bind them all together.

JON STEWART: And this higher purpose is always. a part of the law, this idea that we are different, that not only do we have a frontier and manifest destiny. within this country, but the country. itself is a different beast than all of the other nation. states that these fellow travelers are coming from. What they're saying is release those bonds. and join us in this pursuit of independence and liberty. But Joanne, then Allen used a term. that I think we hear today, nativism or nationalism.

or those kinds of things, but what. is a nativist then in 1810? Is a nativist somebody who thinks. only Protestants, only whites? Is a nativist somebody that groups. all Christianity together? Is a nativist somebody who says, no, it's all European? How do they define is it defined narrowly at that time? JOANNE FREEMAN: It is defined narrowly at different times.

in different ways. So, for example, for a time, nativists would. say Catholics don't count. It's not even all Christians. It's like Catholics are not properly. JON STEWART: Only Catholics didn't count. JOANNE FREEMAN: Well, Catholics have the scary guy, the Pope, and people are going to be loyal to him. and not loyal to this government. So Catholics, they can't be properly--. JON STEWART: Which, by the way, for people that. don't understand, like, was all the way up to John F. Kennedy. Like, when John F. Kennedy was going to become president, there hadn't been a Catholic yet, and people still thought,

this is the 1960s, well, he's not going to be. loyal to the United States. He's just what the pope's going to tell him something to do, and he'll just go do it. JOANNE FREEMAN: Exactly. So that term shifts and changes over time. as to who counts as a native with nativists understanding. JON STEWART: But is the nativist movement, is the strength of the nativist movement. in British-Anglo culture or are there. German American nativists? Like, what was the larger preponderance of it?

JOANNE FREEMAN: Well, I mean, I think in the early period, everyone, well, not everyone, many people. are from somewhere else. As a historian, you never say everyone, only unique first. You're in trouble if you do. But so many people are from somewhere else. That nativism-- like, let's look for-- let's. go back to Hamilton again. Let's look for a moment at Hamilton. Hamilton writes in 1802, 1803 something that sounds. exceedingly anti-immigrant. And he says things along the lines of,

these people from other countries, they're going to come here, they'll be living according. to things, ideas they've imbibed in the countries. they come from, they're going to have different views of us. He goes on and on and on and on about how. that's a horrible thing. But then he goes beyond that to say kind of along the line. of what you're saying, Jon. So for that reason, they shouldn't vote, but we welcome them here. They should come. We want everybody. And Hamilton, of all people--. JON STEWART: We need labor. We don't need citizens.

JOANNE FREEMAN: Well, and there's so much land here. Look at that. And people came, in part, to the United States. because unlike landlocked Europe, there was land here. and people felt that, well, you can begin anew here. You can come, you can get land. People in the early period called Pennsylvania, the best. poor man's country, because they were so much land there. that people could claim and then become. farmers and gain independence. JON STEWART: Right. [THEME MUSIC]. Hey. Folks, it's December.

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Allen, let me ask you, when did the idea more traditionally, then, of immigration come to the forefront. in the American experiment? Is it a post-Civil War, or is it a pre-Civil War idea? Because you said, there's nobody there. You come to this country, you just find a dock. You line up, there's only people there if it's. slave trade or ships, right? JOANNE FREEMAN: Or if you want citizenship. JON STEWART: Or if you-- DR. ALLEN GUELZO: OK. JOANNE FREEMAN: Now, that's a different issue. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: Oh, and there's a process for that.

JON STEWART: OK. JOANNE FREEMAN: Well, but there isn't a uniform process. I just had-- DR. ALLEN GUELZO: That's right. JOANNE FREEMAN: --a wonderful grad student who. wrote her dissertation on--. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: That's right. JON STEWART: Uh oh, historian fight! Historian fight! JOANNE FREEMAN: One of my--. [LAUGHS] that, I've never had that said before, and it sounds so fun. [LAUGHTER] A student of mine just wrote a dissertation. on the very fact that there was no set way to become a citizen, that it depended. Like, for example, how do you get back into being a citizen.

if you were a loyalist and you fought. against the United States? People said, "Well, you know, in New York, maybe it's easier. than in New Jersey.". JON STEWART: There was no federalized process. It was state-to-state. JOANNE FREEMAN: There was not a federalized process. There were not passports. It was very much a negotiated thing with different terms. in different places. JON STEWART: Oh, that's interesting. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: A lot of it varied. from state to state, certainly in terms. of how it was enforced. There were no ID cards. And particularly, I mean, the most important moment.

in terms of the life of a citizen participating. in this experiment is voting. Well, what happened when you went to vote? Well, you didn't walk into a voting booth, and you didn't have a list of candidates. that you'd check off, and you didn't have to have your name. in a judge of elections book. No, you walked up to what was really just a window. in a store or a post office. You had a ballot yourself, and you handed it over.

JON STEWART: And then they would give you, I guess, an embroidered "I voted"--. not a sticker, more like a patch. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: No, not even that. JON STEWART: That Betsy Ross had painstakingly--. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: None of this "I voted" business. Sorry, no, that doesn't happen. JOANNE FREEMAN: Well, depending on the period, too, you didn't even have a uniform ballot. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: No. JOANNE FREEMAN: There's one election in which, in Pennsylvania, in like, 1792, 1793, people who wanted Jeffersonian Republicans to win. wrote out-- you would have to write. the names of the candidates you wanted to vote for-- wrote out.

thousands and thousands of ballots with the names. that they hand it to people. Like, "Ooh, go hand this in!". JON STEWART: Wow. JOANNE FREEMAN: And if you misspelled a name in writing it. out, that could be argued that you weren't really voting. for that kind of person. So not--. JON STEWART: Wow! DR. ALLEN GUELZO: And if there was some kind of question, as someone standing around at the voting place. said, "Look, this fellow who just handed that vote in? I saw him get off the boat in Chicago three weeks ago.".

What would you do? You could make a protest to the judge of elections. The judge of elections would turn around then and have. this person swear an oath--. "Yes, I'm a citizen.". That would be it. JON STEWART: We are a chaotic mess at this point. JOANNE FREEMAN: [LAUGHS] DR. ALLEN GUELZO: Isn't it? Isn't it marvelous? JON STEWART: It is. I have to say, it's incredible, because it. shakes the narratives. The narratives we learn are generally so--. they lack nuance. They're sort of black and white. There is this idea of, "This is the process.". You have no idea of-- and I think we would all benefit.

to understand the improvisational and chaotic. nature of perhaps mostly well-intentioned people trying. to create a union of high moral integrity, but also some functional backing. When did they start to bring order. to the idea of who was going to be an American, and how they would achieve that? JOANNE FREEMAN: I mean, it's a process, right? JON STEWART: Right.

JOANNE FREEMAN: It's a long process. So in the early period, they are experimenting. and making things up. And improv improvisation is the best term, because that is, indeed, what they're doing. As you work your way through the 19th century, bit by bit, you do have federal ways of doing things, national ways of doing things. Passports become something that people can actually have--. although that's into the 19th century. Often, some of these things happen. because there's so much--. I don't want to say "chaos," but disagreement about certain. things, that someone finally comes.

forward and says, "We need to actually. iron out how this works. We need to actually come up with some set way to do it.". JON STEWART: So the first 100 years, it's kind of the Wild West. So, Allen, let me ask you, when I hear discussion today. of "Heritage Americans," they almost always--. and it seems kind of anachronistic--. they point to the Civil War. They say, "You're a Heritage American"- for instance, JD Vance, when he talks about Heritage Americans, he said,

"My ancestors who fought in the Civil War sure as hell have. more of a standing in this country than. people who just got here.". But it's almost always tied to the Civil War, not to the period before that. And I'm curious if either of you has an idea of why that is. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: I think it's because the Civil. War is a big box event, and people can refer to that. JON STEWART: But why wouldn't they. refer to it as The Revolution? Why wouldn't they say, "My people.

came here in the Revolution"? Or does that exclude so many of these nativists. that they don't they don't want to start history there. They want to start history where they. actually enter the picture. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: It's also because in the Revolution, you're dealing with people in tricorn hats. JON STEWART: [LAUGHS]. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: And smallclothes, and stockings and buckles. JOANNE FREEMAN: It's unfamiliar, and it's not as clean-cut as the Civil War. So it is British versus Americans.

But, that division isn't going to help. us a lot if you're trying to divide people into boxes. But looking at the Civil War, clear sides. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: Yes, or supposedly. JOANNE FREEMAN: You can say a lot more generally. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: Right. JOANNE FREEMAN: Well, that's true. Not really, but still, the idea being that-- as you just. put it-- it's a big box event. And it's handy for pointing fingers at and claiming. belongingness in a way that the Revolution even at the time. wasn't that. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: But look at the Civil War itself.

Look at the percentage. Look at the numbers of immigrants. who fight in the ranks of these Civil War armies. You're talking about something like 180,000. Irish just in the Union Army. JON STEWART: Right. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: You're talking about 200,000 Germans. You're talking about 80,000 Swedes. You have got whole units of the Union Army. at Gettysburg whose officers are still. giving them orders in German. JON STEWART: Wow. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: Because that's how many.

Germans there are. JON STEWART: Literally speaking German? DR. ALLEN GUELZO: Literally speaking German. These are units in the 11th Corps. of the Army of the Potomac. So we are talking about armies which are chock. full of immigrants themselves. And when Lincoln comes in November of 1863 to dedicate. the Soldiers' National Cemetery at Gettysburg, you have some, what, 3,500 Union burials there. The percentage of immigrants who are buried there--.

I can take you right on the outer rim. of that semicircle of graves, that huge semicircle. I can take you right to the very first one you would walk. through in the central aisle. This is a kid who was born in Austria, under the Austrian Empire. JON STEWART: Wow. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: And he was-- and he died at Gettysburg. He was an officer in a New York artillery battery. Is someone going to take away his title to be an American? JON STEWART: Well, because it's so interesting bring it up. Because if you think about this nativist movement--.

and it's hard to separate it from the MAGA movement, except for, maybe, the more extreme. versions of it that are more in the like, you real, true white nationalist world. But they generally fetishize the iconography. of the American Revolution and the documents of it. It's a lot of "We the People" on the buses. It's a lot of all that. But when they want to start history, they generally start it at the Civil War. And I wonder if it's because they view it as, "These are.

the people that we want to credit with ending slavery, and therefore, they are the beginning of this. new generation of America"? I'm not sure. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: Let me give you some iconography in. In response to that, I'm going to give you the iconography. of a photograph. The photograph of a Black Union Sergeant with a cane--. resting on a cane in one hand, and on the other hand, the regimental colors of the 54th Massachusetts Volunteers.

Joanne, I'm sure you've seen this photograph. This is Sergeant William Carney. Carney was one of the-- he was born in slavery. He was one of the recruits to this new Black regiment, the 54th. They go into action in July of 1863 at Battery Wagner. He rescues the regimental flag. He's hit three times-- once in the chest, once in the leg, once in the arm. Drags himself back to the first aid station he comes to, hands.

over the flag before he collapses, and says, "The old flag never touched the ground, boys.". JON STEWART: Wow. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: Six months before, that man did not have a flag. He couldn't have because of Roger Taney. and the Dred Scott decision. But in the Civil War, he has it. JON STEWART: Right. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: He has that flag. That flag is his. He is an American. JON STEWART: Right. He is a Heritage American. And they don't normally count. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: That's right. That's right.

JOANNE FREEMAN: Well, that's the thing! JON STEWART: Right, that's what I'm trying to get to. JOANNE FREEMAN: That's the thing, is that when you look at the Revolution, or you look at the Civil War, and you look. at it with a glossy, simplified view, and you talk about flag-waving, and you. talk about us versus them, you erase the complexity. And you erase the subtlety. And you erase the very things that. make this a country that's always evolving. and always developing.

You know, our sense of history and our willingness to get. beyond the glossy cover-- you know, the people who are looking at the Civil War and saying, "Heritage American," they're erasing, in a sense, some of the people that. Allen here is talking about. JON STEWART: But isn't that what's. necessary to the nativist experiment, if we put that in? Nativism only works-- and Allen said it, I thought, perfectly before-- which is. that it's a bit of a cynical--.

it's a phrase that's used to be more. palatable to those that use it as a cover. for a certain prejudice. JOANNE FREEMAN: Well, precisely. And--. JON STEWART: That? Now, that's the point. JOANNE FREEMAN: It's a cover. And that's also, obviously, linked. to people who are interested in us not studying certain parts. of our history, and not thinking about certain things. that happened in the past, and only. thinking about the grand, glorious moments. I mean, we're coming up on 2026,

and it's a moment, those kinds of anniversaries--. I mean, I was-- the Bicentennial basically. made me a historian, because it was everywhere, and it got me really thinking about big ideas. But those kinds of anniversaries. are reckoning moments. And if you head into those moments unwilling to wrestle. with anything other than the flag waving glorious things, you're basically declaring that you're unwilling to embrace. your country in its entirety and really. think about what it is. JON STEWART: And complexity, yeah. JOANNE FREEMAN: And where it might be able to go.

DR. ALLEN GUELZO: There is a trajectory. in this American experiment, and it's. one we can respond to, or see people respond. to, in two different ways. One is to say, "Oh, look how dramatically. they failed to live up to these expectations or these promises. That means the expectations and the promises. are of a null set.". And that's a very pessimistic view. Ironically, it is also the view adopted by every monarch,

every aristocrat, every tinpot dictator who's ever come along. JON STEWART: Right. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: Who's happy to say, "See? The Americans make a great deal out. of all these wonderful things. But look, they don't live up to it, so we. can't take that seriously.". JON STEWART: The contradictions, right. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: All right, that's one way of doing it. And if we yield to that, then we. find ourselves thoroughly in agreement with the dictators. and the tyrants. Is that where we want to be? All right, that's one thing. The second thing is to say, the trajectory. of this American idea is always in motion.

We are always discovering new ways of opening this up. I remember two or three years ago, I was watching a video of some Chinese dissidents. These were students. They were protesting policies of the Chinese government. One of them-- one of them stood up at a barricade, a police barricade. And he's shouting at the top of his voice--. in Mandarin, but he's shouting--. "Give me liberty, or give me death.".

JON STEWART: Whoa. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: And I thought-- at that moment, Jon, at that moment, I thought, "The American. Revolution is not over.". JON STEWART: Right. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: And it is not. And the alternate to the pessimistic concession. is to say, we are still in process. We are still discovering what is. in the marrow of these ideas, of that proposition. JOANNE FREEMAN: And it's to acknowledge that ideas matter.

JON STEWART: Yeah. JOANNE FREEMAN: Right? So the idea and the ideals that came out. of that founding moment, they didn't live up to them, and many of them didn't want to live up to them. But the ideas mattered. They mattered to future generations, marginalized people. JON STEWART: And were enduring. They were enduring ideas. JOANNE FREEMAN: Exactly, and all kinds. of people could look to them, could point to them, and use those ideas in a way that opened. the world to them as well. There's all kinds of scholarship.

on how the Declaration of Independence. has been used, and reused, and reused. in places around the world. The ideas matter, even if the people who created. them didn't live up to them. JON STEWART: Right. JOANNE FREEMAN: So I agree with what Allen is saying. We can point to the founding and say, well, feh to that, because they didn't live. up to what they were saying. Well, no, they really didn't. And they did a lot of things wrong. And they were unjust in a lot of ways. And slavery was there. It's written into the Constitution. But the ideas that they put forward mattered.

I just-- in the class I just was teaching. about Hamilton and Jefferson, we looked. at Jefferson's last letter. He was invited to go to Washington, DC to give. a speech on the 4th of July. JON STEWART: Right. JOANNE FREEMAN: And he couldn't. He actually died the 4th of July that year. JON STEWART: It's a good excuse not to go. JOANNE FREEMAN: [LAUGHS] I know, it is. It's a pretty good excuse. JON STEWART: Yeah. JOANNE FREEMAN: He pushed to make it. that far, as I said earlier. But he says in the letter that essentially-- it's going. to be a horrible paraphrase--. "We now are in a time where people understand that they.

don't exist for the wealthy and the powerful. to tread on their backs and keep them bowed down. We live in a time when people around the world understand. that we have a different understanding. of the rights of humankind.". JON STEWART: Right. (CHANTING) Bernie, Bernie-- oh, I'm sorry. JOANNE FREEMAN: [LAUGHS]. [THEME MUSIC]. JON STEWART: Folks, today's episode. is sponsored by Incogni. Now, I don't know what you're doing at home. I don't know what you're doing on the computer.

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They can't harm you if they can't find you. Click the link below to claim your 60% off. and get your personal data off the market. Incogni.com/stewart. [THEME MUSIC]. Now we're going to make a little time jump. So we've got this idea of a country. that's not really formulated like a normal country. It's got this ideal, and it's also got a frontier. So it's got this expansionist kind of mentality, and the borders are not drawn hard and fast.

But at a certain point, the country sets like a fontanel. It just sort of sets. And now we've got real borders, and now we've. got to look at-- so I want to draw. attention to immigration reforms. when it starts to happen. Because there's two tent posts here that. I want to talk about, the one in 1924. and then the one in 1965. Because I think they are, in many ways, diametrically opposed, yet continue.

to reflect the kind of battle that we're. all facing internally about what it is to be Americans. So 1924, the Immigration Reform Act is a nativist act where. they're basically saying, "Actually, we are white Europeans.". But even within that, I think they--. they say, basically, "Germans, Irish, Greeks are not white European.

They are not allowed to immigrate here.". Is that correct? DR. ALLEN GUELZO: Well, there are quotas that are--. JON STEWART: There are quotas. I see, I see. And how do they establish the who is properly white? Why is it that Irish and Italian and Greek--. and maybe it wasn't Irish; maybe. it was Italian and Greek--. were not considered in '24? Because it was an explicitly nativist bill, was it not?

JOANNE FREEMAN: It is also true, though, that Irish and Italian, there's a long history going all. the way back to the 18th century of people declaring. that they're not white--. all the way back to the late 1790s. JON STEWART: Right, right. JOANNE FREEMAN: And early 19th century. JON STEWART: So Southern, Southern. and Eastern Europe is declaring, "We're not white like them.". They're declaring it. JOANNE FREEMAN: At times. At times. JON STEWART: I see. JOANNE FREEMAN: Yeah, I mean, that's. part of what's fascinating about this whole thing, is the way that this evolves--.

that there isn't a set standard that has persisted. throughout the entirety of American history, and that in a given moment, those kinds. of boundaries, the lines that people try to draw, say more about that in a moment in time and the biases. and goals that people in that moment. have than about the American nation as a whole. JON STEWART: So what is the bias they have? So they exclude Asian people almost entirely. They severely restrict Slavs and Poles and Jews.

and Italians and Greeks. What is it, then, they're trying to say about who. the Heritage Americans are? Because certainly in this country at that time, there are Poles and Italians and Jews and Asians. So why are they saying, "Actually--"? Is it because of their religion? Is it because of where they're from? Is it their complexion? What is the dividing line?

DR. ALLEN GUELZO: I'm not--. I'm not going to try to be too much of an expert about 1924. I'm a 19th century person, but--. JOANNE FREEMAN: And I'm an 18th century person! [LAUGHS] JON STEWART: All right. You know what? DR. ALLEN GUELZO: Having--. JON STEWART: I'll take this part of the conversation. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: Having issued that disclaimer--. JON STEWART: Yes? DR. ALLEN GUELZO: I think one of the key factors that. goes into this is World War I. JON STEWART: OK. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: We're dealing in 1924. with an era of tremendous disenchantment. on the part of Americans. I mean, here, this marvelous European civilization.

has spent four years in the trenches. blowing its brains out. And what do we have as a result of it? Well, what we have is a deranged Europe, which is going to get more deranged very quickly. We have a Bolshevik regime in Russia, which scares us silly. So what are we trying to do? It's almost like we are trying to do a kind of disinfectant. We're trying to say, "We don't want to go.

in the direction that the Europeans have. shown that they have gone.". And there are going to be some Europeans. who are, in our minds, more dangerous than that. But it is a moment of real angst and disenchantment. Which is not to say that that's an excuse, but it is to say, this is the environment in which. the 1924 legislation emerges. JON STEWART: So you're saying it's a prophylactic? It's basically saying, "Here are the elements we think.

are involved in this world conflagration that. led to this terrible four-year slaughter. We are not going to allow that element--". DR. ALLEN GUELZO: Yeah, this is what's called isolationism. JON STEWART: OK. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: Because we go into the-- we. go into World War I with Woodrow Wilson banging. the drum for how we're going to make. the world safe for democracy. What did we make it safe for? We made it safe for the Weimar Republic? Oh, yeah, that was a real accomplishment. JON STEWART: Right, right. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: So Americans look at this, and in the 1920s,

it's this gigantic pullback. Like, World War I, this was not a good idea. Woodrow Wilson did not have good ideas. Woodrow Wilson threw Eugene Debs into jail. and destroyed his health. We had the persecution of all kinds of dissidents. that-- we're not going to do that again. So we're going to put up this barrier because we. don't want any influence that might. push us in that direction. Is it a panic response? Yeah, it is a panic response. JOANNE FREEMAN: I would add to that. by saying that if you're fighting a World War that's.

characterized by all the things that Allen just said, you're going to emerge from that moment really. thinking about who we are. JON STEWART: Right. JOANNE FREEMAN: And who they are. That's kind of a defining moment, you know? And I would say, generally speaking, in American history, the question of who is the "we,". and is there a "we"? Is there something that unites all Americans? We live in a moment where we're kind. of having a "we" crisis, in which, you know, who is the "we"? I don't think, right now, most people agree that there is one.

JON STEWART: And we're seeing the rise of -isms. We're seeing-- JOANNE FREEMAN: Yes. JON STEWART: --fascism rise. We're seeing Bolshevism rise. You know, communism, Marxism, you know, all those things. And we're defining ourselves as, "These people are. the cause of that, and we don't want. that strain to infect here.". Would that be fair? JOANNE FREEMAN: We're defining us as "not that.". JON STEWART: "Not that.". JOANNE FREEMAN: Right? We're not that, and we're not that, and we're not that. And OK, fine, but what are we?

And that is not where we're going right now. That is not a conversation we're having. We're not talking about democracy. Part of what we are, we're a small-d democratic country. What does that mean? We're a representative country in which. representation matters. We're a country grounded on public opinion. Those conversations aren't happening. JON STEWART: And public opinion changes. on who we are, as we see now. JOANNE FREEMAN: Right. JON STEWART: Because certainly, if you look at us post-World.

War I, and we're saying, we don't want Germans and Italians. and anarchists-- you know, that's anarchists, and we don't want Jews and Poles. because that's Bolsheviks, we're defining ourselves. by what we don't want. Whereas, you know, you jump ahead to 1965, and we're defining ourselves as a much. more egalitarian society. That-- well, we're defining ourselves as, "Actually, we are that idea, and we're going to live that idea.".

Is that fair to say--. or not? [LAUGHTER]. And then there is a long silence. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: It's the long silence. of the absence of a 20th century history person. JOANNE FREEMAN: [LAUGHS]. JON STEWART: Let me tell you something. You guys killed it with the 1924 stuff. You told me you didn't know anything. And I was like, "Holy shit! I wish I didn't know that.". You two have forgotten more than I will. ever know about this stuff.

The reason why I'm sort of trying to frame it. that way is I'm trying to understand, how we do. have that discussion? Because the way we're having it now is with a cudgel. The way we're having it now is, guys in face masks come in with. flashbang grenades and arrest an 18-year-old. valedictorian who came to this country at seven years old. And maybe that's because it's the absence of clarity.

in who we think we are and who we think we might want to be. JOANNE FREEMAN: It's not even just the absence of clarity. JON STEWART: Yeah. JOANNE FREEMAN: It's the masking, literally, of clarity. JON STEWART: Oh, yeah. JOANNE FREEMAN: These are people. who are masking themselves so we don't know who they are. So not only is there not a discussion, there's a deliberate effort to not have that discussion. and to create an environment in which anyone can point. to anyone-- well, not anyone, but the folks who are in power.

and are being given a certain kind of power can point. to anyone and say, "Not us.". JON STEWART: But I understand it in the framework of 1924--. you're coming off of World War I--. what is the framework for me to understand. the President of the United States. sitting in the Oval Office saying, "Somalis. are terrible people."? I don't understand the framing of it. In the context of an American experiment that is an ideal--. not always one that we lived up to--.

how is it that 250 years into the experiment, our elected leader is pointing at faceless people. and absolutely denying their individuality, which. is the inalienable rights that we. all have according to the document of our founding? How am I supposed to understand that when there. is no world conflagration? Like, what-- do you guys have an opinion on that,

or a sense of it? JOANNE FREEMAN: Well, I do want to add to that. So on the one hand, saying Somalians are a horrible people. is a horrible thing to do. To go the next step and say, "So we should throw them out.". JON STEWART: Right! JOANNE FREEMAN: "So they shouldn't be here.". That's the part that suddenly not only moves into hatred. and ugliness-- because certainly, there have been other Presidents. that have said hateful, ugly, prejudiced things--. to go the next step and basically say, "We have. to throw them out of here.

They don't belong here. And I've got my guys in masks, and who knows? I'm going to set them out.". We're in a moment where there's a particular president who. not only says the ugly words, but then. is willing to enforce them--. JON STEWART: Right. JOANNE FREEMAN: --in a way that isn't constitutional. JON STEWART: But he is reflecting. a deep sentiment amongst--. I'm not going to say the majority, certainly. JOANNE FREEMAN: No. JON STEWART: But certainly, amongst a portion of people.

Allen, you've been pondering. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: I'm pondering where the common threads are. in these-- let's call them upsurges, waves-- of nativism, of suspicion, of hostility. I think the common thread is anxiety--. anxiety that when you create a nation based around an idea, based around a proposition, based around a creed, connected with that, there's an anxiety.

that this might not be enough. Because we're told over and over again by so many others. that if you're going to have a nation, it's got to be built out of these very. solid materials like race, or religion, or language, or culture. If you're going to be a German, you've. got to talk about the Teutoburger Wald, or the German. Volk, or something like that. JON STEWART: There's a comfort in this similarity, right? DR. ALLEN GUELZO: Because it feels like it has substance.

It feels like it's material. It feels like it has something that you. can actually sit down on. Whereas, when you talk about living the life of an idea, that sounds so much more nervous. How do we ensure the safety of an idea? And I think when you encounter nativism in the 18th century, when you encounter it in--. the waves of it in the 19th century, into the 20th century, into our own time, the common. thread here is anxiety.

It's not that we're unsure of who other people are. We're not entirely sure of who we are ourselves. JOANNE FREEMAN: And if we're going to hold. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: And I think that that is manifest. not only in the kind of anxiety, the kind of hostility. that we show in terms of immigrant groups, and have shown in the past. It's also the way we treat each other. Look at how we talk about each other today. JON STEWART: Right. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: We talk about that-- we bandy. around these toxic terms.

"Fascist, socialist, Bolshevik"-- you name it. JON STEWART: "Enemy of the people, enemy of the state.". DR. ALLEN GUELZO: Yeah, we do that. We do that. It is an act we commit on each other. over and over and over again. This is happening everywhere. JON STEWART: But is that different, Allen? Certainly, in the Revolution and in the Civil War, the verbiage around, certainly, the Founding Fathers--. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: Oh yeah. JON STEWART: --and people that were running were--. I mean, they were vicious. JOANNE FREEMAN: Absolutely. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: There is a common word.

we have to come back to. JON STEWART: Mm-hmm. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: And I almost want to say--. Joanne was saying about the importance of "we.". I'm thinking the most important "we" that. we encounter is the people. JON STEWART: Right. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: And that's something we. always have to bear in mind. But there is a particular word that I. want to draw people back to, I draw my students back to. And that is "citizen.". Because there is only one title that Americans enjoy. That's the title of citizen. Everything else is temporary.

Everything else is improvisatory. The fundamental fact is "citizen.". What is a citizen? And if we could for a moment learn to look at each other. as citizens, instead of the way we treat ourselves--. the really, the really--. JON STEWART: And trust each other. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: The beastly way. that we treat each other today, the names. that we call each other. You know, one faction calls this.

One faction calls that. Jon, I've been called-- believe it or not, I've been called everything from a Trotskyist. to a Christian nationalist. JON STEWART: Who calls historians names? Wait a minute! JOANNE FREEMAN: Oh, don't even ask me what I've been called! JON STEWART: Really? DR. ALLEN GUELZO: Yeah, yeah. JOANNE FREEMAN: Oh, yeah. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: Yeah, get two or three historians together. JON STEWART: Why are people--. who attacks you guys? Because I would think that that's generally--. is that because you're at conferences where you might.

give speeches about certain things, and that's where it comes from? I'm a little blown-- like, I'm used to me getting. yelled at, but that's-- I'm--. JOANNE FREEMAN: No, no. JON STEWART: --it's cable television, and people--. JOANNE FREEMAN: It's the public. And it's because I do a lot of public-facing work. And so on social media, in print--. JON STEWART: People will weaponize your work, and politicize it, and attack you. JOANNE FREEMAN: Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely, absolutely. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: And this happens--. this happens all the time. It happens across the board.

I have just about--. JON STEWART: Wow. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: --completely decoupled from social media, area, largely because I just can't stand listening. to the way people carry on. JON STEWART: It's certainly a net negative in most. people's lives, I would say. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: And yeah, and it's poisonous. And it is a contradiction. JOANNE FREEMAN: I'm on there, though. JON STEWART: [LAUGHS] JOANNE FREEMAN: I'm on there! I am. I'm up there. I'm with-- I'm up there for the Constitution, man. JON STEWART: Joanne's out there with a tweetstorm! She's going nuts! JOANNE FREEMAN: Not on Twitter. JON STEWART: He doesn't care. JOANNE FREEMAN: I am not on Twitter, no. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: Joanne's a braver soul than I am. All right, I'll be happy to concede.

JON STEWART: Let me ask you this, then, because is it maybe-- because Allen, I thought, the word that you framed as, it's "anxiety"--. that there is an anxiety, and through citizenship, is. ultimately maybe what makes this feel so tenuous, is our anxiety of what it means to be a responsible citizen, to not really have the tent posts in place, to know what that is, and then to not trust that others.

are also living up to it. So that like, when they say we need screening, screening for what? And what is the metric? We need people that love this country. Love it this much, to the moon and back? Or just to the moon? What if there are no metrics for citizenship? Is that anxiety based on who is--. now, I'm living next to somebody who celebrates. a different holiday than I do, who wears. different colored clothing. Now, if you're from New York City, you're used to this.

It's the beauty of it. It's the beauty of being able to go. to these different neighborhoods and experience. culture, but also assimilate into this--. it's the melting pot. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: But, Jon, that's a risk, you see. JON STEWART: Yes. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: And in the long run of human history, it's a risk that, many times over and over again, people and nations do not want to take. The American experiment-- and Washington.

uses the word "experiment.". Lincoln uses the word "experiment.". It is a risk that we take, but it's a risk because we believe. that there is something higher and nobler. that we can appeal to in our common lives together. JOANNE FREEMAN: That's the "we.". JON STEWART: Yes. JOANNE FREEMAN: That should be the "we"! JON STEWART: That's the "we!" DR. ALLEN GUELZO: That's it! JOANNE FREEMAN: That should be what. brings us together, is that understanding, that-- and we don't--. We're not going to all agree on where we should be going. JON STEWART: I'm getting chills, guys. Keep going. I'm getting chills. Wait, let me get my fife.

[MIMICKING FIFE MUSIC]. JOANNE FREEMAN: [LAUGHS] Can I just. have you do that generally? JON STEWART: Sure! JOANNE FREEMAN: Because I would find that so inspiring. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: Look, there's a great. moment in the movie Glory, which is. about the 54th Massachusetts. JON STEWART: Back in Civil War? You're back in your comfort zone. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: I'm back in the Civil War, back on my own turf. JON STEWART: Hit me. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: The Denzel Washington character, they're. about to go into action. The night before, they have a prayer meeting. And in that prayer meeting, Denzel Washington.

is not long and short-- his character is. not long and short on prayer. He gives a marvelously eloquent little speech. He says, "Whatever happens tomorrow, we know we men.". And in saying that, there's the "we.". JON STEWART: Right. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: "We" are in this together. JON STEWART: Right, defending an ideal. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: Exactly. JON STEWART: Right. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: Exactly. JOANNE FREEMAN: And here's the thing. JON STEWART: Yeah. JOANNE FREEMAN: And I love what you both said a little while. ago about the anxiety.

A country that's created based on race, or a certain battle. being fought in the distant past, or whatever-- there are ways in which you can. found a country that feel stamped in a sort. of concrete, rooted reality. And that's not what the United States is. And by definition, as you've both been saying, that's going to create anxiety. And that goes, again, all the way back to quote unquote, "my" time period. Constantly, they're trying to figure.

out what brings us together. But that is the challenge. If you-- in almost all of my classes, I quote part of the first paragraph. I'm going back to Hamilton. JON STEWART: Do it, come on. JOANNE FREEMAN: Going back to Hamilton. JON STEWART: Come on. JOANNE FREEMAN: The first paragraph. of the first Federalist essay. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: Yes. JOANNE FREEMAN: And Hamilton says--. JON STEWART: Uh-oh, and now Allen's off his chair. Here we go. Come on! Bring it home, Joanne. JOANNE FREEMAN: Hamilton basically says--. I will try to bring it home--. Hamilton says, "We're essentially deciding for all. time whether it's possible to create a country based. on deliberation and choice, or whether.

countries forever will be created by warfare and fate.". JON STEWART: Right. JOANNE FREEMAN: "And the decision which we make now, the actions which we take now, will. decide that for all mankind.". Meaning we, by our coming together. to deliberate, to create something by choice, that is a risk. That does mean we're going to eternally be trying. to figure out who we are.

We're creating it through choice and deliberation. JON STEWART: And in our defense-- and I would say this, when as a rebuke to, I think, the more nativist elements, there's this idea that a diverse society formed. around a creed is a risk--. as though a traditional nation-state. Man, they just live in peace, and there's no problem. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: Oh, yeah, right. JOANNE FREEMAN: [LAUGHS]. JON STEWART: If you want to go back. to what makes this a dangerous world,

it's nation-states or religious states. fighting for the supremacy because they. believe themselves superior. So the idea that somehow we in America. are embarking on a much riskier journey seems utterly foolish. What it seems to be is a reaction to the much more, as you would say, clear-cut, "I know who belongs here". formulation that has been the cause of strife, and death,

and war throughout history. So to formulate it, you know, as Trump. would say to the inner cities, "What have you got to lose?". It's not like those other formulations have. been so stable and peaceful. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: 'Tis true, 'tis true. JOANNE FREEMAN: No, it's true. JON STEWART: I got a "'Tis true"! JOANNE FREEMAN: [LAUGHS]. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: Jon, there was a wonderful letter. written by a 19th-century Swede, an emigrant.

to the United States. He's writing back to family in Sweden. He talks about what it is like to live in America. And the thing that he homed in on was this. "My cap is not worn out from having. to take it off when a rich man rides by in his carriage.". JON STEWART: Boom. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: And I thought, bingo. JON STEWART: Boom. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: That's it right there. JON STEWART: That's what it's about. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: Yeah, yeah. JOANNE FREEMAN: There's someone who.

says that right after the Revolution, actually. DR. ALLEN GUELZO: Yeah? JOANNE FREEMAN: When he's asked at the time--. or he says at the time-- what's different--. JON STEWART: Right. JOANNE FREEMAN: --now? And he says, "When I'm on the street, I don't need to bow down to someone who's coming by me. I can actually stand up.". JON STEWART: I so appreciate you guys. spending the time with us. I wish my brain had a tenth of what you guys. have going on your brains. And your ability to recall it all with such specificity.

and such purpose is really wonderful to listen to. I think your students are supremely lucky to have. both you guys, and I really appreciate. you spending the time with us. Doctor Allen Guelzo, Professor of Humanities at University. of Florida, and Joanne Freeman, Professor of History. and American Studies at Yale University. and host of History Matters. Thank you guys both so much. JOANNE FREEMAN: Thank you for having us. [THEME MUSIC].

JON STEWART: Kids, I didn't want to make this announcement. right now, I thought it might be premature, but I'm just going to say it. I'm just going to say it right now. We made it! The podcast has made it! We're in the big leagues! The episode is sponsored by the number one meal. kit in America, HelloFresh. Yeah, come on! Makes home cooking easier. Chef-crafted recipes and fresh ingredients, they deliver it right to your door. They've doubled their menu. HelloFresh has like 100 recipe options a week--.

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Free meals applied as discount on first box. New subscribers only, varies by plan. That's hellofresh.com/TWS10FM to get 10 free meals. plus free breakfast for life. [THEME MUSIC]. JON STEWART: Ahh! ALL: [LAUGHS]. JON STEWART: I can't figure out if I was just a fucking. idiot when I was in college and did not take advantage.

of the brilliance and insight of my professors, or if they're just incredibly brilliant and insightful. and bring this to life in a beautiful way for me. I think I don't know. GILLIAN SPEAR: I feel that way. LAUREN WALKER: Maybe both. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: It's both. It's definitely both. GILLIAN SPEAR: College is definitely wasted on, like, 18 to 22-year-olds. Like, I definitely didn't take advantage of my time there. JON STEWART: I'm mad at myself. I think somehow, whatever marijuana haze blocked.

my ability to see, but--. GILLIAN SPEAR: You were busy, yeah. [LAUGHS]. LAUREN WALKER: You heard, though, Joanne would definitely have you in class. if you played behind her. JON STEWART: I would do it. I would get the fife. And certainly, that would help me. in my classroom participation grade, which I did not do well in. What was your favorite-- do you have a favorite professor. or class that you had? LAUREN WALKER: Oh, my goodness, I had so many great classes. I was an international relations major. JON STEWART: Right. LAUREN WALKER: And so I focused on international relations.

But I loved-- I had two German histories class, just. talking about the different ways of German history. through culture. And so it was a lot of film and reading from the time. JON STEWART: A lot of schnitzel, big schnitzel class. LAUREN WALKER: [LAUGHS]. JON STEWART: Field trips to beer gardens. See, I did a very similar course of study. at a beer garden. LAUREN WALKER: [LAUGHS]. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: [LAUGHS]. JON STEWART: Where we would sample. I fucked up my youth so badly.

LAUREN WALKER: I don't know about that. You're here. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: I think you turned out just fine. JON STEWART: Yeah, but it took-- it took a while. Now, like, as you guys think about where your families are. from, do you think about the various times when they came, and when, like, they landed here, and those changes? Like, I think my family came after the 1924 Act. GILLIAN SPEAR: Oh, wow. JON STEWART: And I'm not--. yeah, yeah, I think at least I know my--. yeah, I think my grandfather did, because he.

came from China in--. well, no, I guess it was right around then. It was the 19--. probably the 1920s. That's when they all came. One drove a cab and in Brooklyn, and the other ran, like, a dry cleaner. But I think they came around that time. Oh my God, guys, I just thought of something terrible. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Uh oh. JON STEWART: Do you think they passed that act. because of my grandparents? [LAUGHTER]. GILLIAN SPEAR: They were like, there's two too many! LAUREN WALKER: [LAUGHS]. JON STEWART: They got here, and the government was like,

"That's it!". GILLIAN SPEAR: The vibes are off. JON STEWART: We have had it! Brittany, what do we got from the people this week? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Alrighty. Jon, do you think there's any truth. to when Trump calls the press the enemy of the people? JON STEWART: I'm going to go with no. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: (SARCASTICALLY) What? JON STEWART: You know, I mean, the press. may not be at all times helpful, but the idea that they are--. I consider an enemy somebody who is purposefully weaponizing.

whatever it is that they do to undercut the strength. and stability of the country. And if that's what he thinks that they're doing, I think he is fucking way off on the other thing. And, in fact, I would say that the subversion. of the so-called press outlets that he favors. have more along the lines with subversion. than the majority of the media, even if you don't think it's.

helpful, tends to be following the incentives. of sensationalism and ratings and profit. and not of a direct cultural and political aim. I think they're just generally trying to produce television. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah, because like when he says that, do you think Matt Gaetz and Laura. Loomer are included in that? JON STEWART: No, he doesn't. They're friends of the court, on the thing. Lauren, you worked in the media.

Are they the enemies? Do they sit-in the back and go, "Here's how we. take down the infrastructure"? LAUREN WALKER: No, and honestly, I. would say that they're really helping him. I mean, I was looking at the news this morning, and I saw so many summaries of his tweet storm. Like, I know every crazy thought. he had on Monday evening and tweeted, just because so many outlets summarized it. as if it was newsworthy as much as anything else. So I think they're actually helping him.

JON STEWART: I think they're sanitizing and laundering. it and removing the disturbance and the-- kind of, the bizarreness of it by treating. it through aggregation. LAUREN WALKER: Yeah. JON STEWART: Rather than just going, "Can. you fucking believe this one?". Like, by aggregating it, it makes. it seem like a weather report. LAUREN WALKER: I will say there was one little tidbit that I. took away from these summaries that I thought was a little bit. interesting, which is that, OK, backing up, he had 158 Truths,

or whatever you call them, in a series of like two hours. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: [LAUGHS] JON STEWART: Right. LAUREN WALKER: The last time he had so many was 200. during Black Lives Matter protests, and 142 during his Senate impeachment. So it's nice to put it into context like that, I guess. Like, he's losing it in some way. JON STEWART: I thought you were going. to say, like, the last time he did that, he. had bought an eight ball. GILLIAN SPEAR: That, too. JON STEWART: And he was up-- and he was up all night. GILLIAN SPEAR: These things are not mutually exclusive. JON STEWART: Right. Gillian, you don't think they're the enemy.

of the people, Gillian? GILLIAN SPEAR: Oh, I think they're the enemy. [LAUGHTER]. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: I fucking knew it, Gillian! JON STEWART: She's along. She's always-- Gillian's MAGA. She's always been MAGA. That's just how it goes. Yeah, famously MAGA. What else we got? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: "Isn't it about time Congress takes. the pardon power away from Trump, the convicted. criminal's best friend?". JON STEWART: I kind of dig what he's doing. I used to think crime doesn't pay, but now I'm getting a whole other head on this.

He is decriminalizing-- you know, like, there was that big movement, like, for years, people had to fight for, like, "Legalize pot! Like, there is this drug that was like sort of like alcohol, and alcohol is legal, and there's restriction on it. And you couldn't figure it out. He's just out there with pens like, "legalize international. drug trafficking.". [LAUGHTER]. Like, with the stroke of a pen. He's like, "This guy was convicted for moving--". They literally said, "Mountains of cocaine.".

And he's like, "But, a mountain? It's not too much to have a mountain.". GILLIAN SPEAR: He's like, "Dream bigger.". Yeah. JON STEWART: Right! BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: And Congress does nothing. JON STEWART: Nothing! They're scared shitless. But do you remember when the step between getting. dispensaries and like, you know, getting arrested for smoking on the street. was, well, if you had, like, two. joints, you'd be cool, as long as it. didn't seem like distribution. Trump, while obviously droning boats to fight the drug war,

he decriminalized a mountain of coke. You can't do more than a mountain. [LAUGHTER]. There is no geographical, even, apparatus. GILLIAN SPEAR: "This mountain is for my personal use.". JON STEWART: Right. Like now, now the next guy is going to be like, "Well, you're in trouble because you're doing. a mountain range of cocaine.". [LAUGHTER]. Like, what the fuck?

He even-- like, bribery is legal. State-sponsored drug trafficking is legal. Like, I don't even know what to make. of this, as he said many times, law and order Presidency. GILLIAN SPEAR: Well, he doesn't either. He doesn't even know who he pardoned. So-- [LAUGHS]. JON STEWART: That's-- by the way, what a six-year-old he is. Whenever he gets confronted, his responses are either, "I don't know" or, "You're stupid.". I have children. I'm very familiar with these dodges.

[LAUGHTER]. LAUREN WALKER: He always says, "I don't know,". and then has a specific next line that shows. he specifically does know. It's, like, without fail. JON STEWART: What about even the droning of the--. the so-called "double tap" where they ended up that there. were survivors, and then they killed them, and they ask him, and he goes, "I don't know. I got nothing to do with it.". And you're like, "You're the commander in chief.". GILLIAN SPEAR: But pointedly-- JON STEWART: Yes! GILLIAN SPEAR: --he didn't have anything to do with it. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: It's a "Tag, you're it!" situation. JON STEWART: "I got nothing to do with it.

That's Pete!". And then Pete's like, "I left the room. I'm busy. I got shit to do. I've got hair cream to buy.". LAUREN WALKER: They're going to run out of people. to throw under the bus. JON STEWART: Absolute insanity. GILLIAN SPEAR: The buck stops down there. JON STEWART: The buck stops-- oh, another boat blew up. What are you going to do? [LAUGHTER]. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Jon, I want--. another quick one for you. JON STEWART: One quick one. Bring it. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Just on that we. thought was kind of funny. "If you ran CNN and had to keep just one, are you going with Scott Jennings or Jake Tapper?".

JON STEWART: Collins. [LAUGHTER]. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: And we're out. JON STEWART: And we're out. Guys, thank you so much. Excellent work. Boy, I gotta tell you, I loved that conversation. I just found it so invigorating. And, boy, my respect for those two is through the roof. I really-- fuck-- wish I had paid attention. more when I was younger. But thank you, guys, for it. Lead producer Lauren Walker.

Producer Brittany Mehmedovic. Producer Gillian Spear. Video editor and engineer Rob Vitola. Audio editor and engineer Nicole Boyce. Executive producers Chris McShane and Katie Gray. We shall see you next week. Bye-bye. [THEME MUSIC]. The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart. is a Comedy Central podcast. It Is produced by Paramount Audio and Busboy Productions.