America vs. The Rest with Alastair Campbell | The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart

JON STEWART: Do you think that democracy. still has the credibility as an operating system? Or has it so been tainted by the mistakes that were made. in Iraq, or the mistakes that were made in immigration. policy, or the inability to solve. some of the bureaucratic issues that occur within the EU? Brexit. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Well, the one that you didn't put. in there, which I think is the biggest of the lot, is the fact that we've had a generation growing up.

with no guarantee whatsoever that they're. going to be better off than their parents' generation. I think if you go back--. JON STEWART: This shit has gotten dark, Alastair. We're going to have to somehow find a way to pull out of this. We're getting dark here. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Oh, I'm sorry. Well, let me just--. let's do this. JON STEWART: Come on, Mr. Sunshine. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Oh, god. Yeah. Well, should I get my bagpipes out and play you a tune? [MUSIC PLAYING]. JON STEWART: Hey, everybody. Welcome to The Weekly Show Podcast. My name is Jon Stewart. It is Tuesday, March 24.

We are in between deadlines, I think, with Iran. And I wanted to get a sense right. now-- we talk a lot about, geez, how did we get here? And Trump, he's just impulsive, and he. didn't do it the right way. But I seem to remember there were other wars that we've. gotten into that we did get into the right way. but were equally as foolhardy and useless--. speaking, of course, of Iraq, and perhaps Libya, and a variety of other things. And I thought, well, let me get--. I'd like to get the perspective of someone.

that I met years ago who was active in the Tony. Blair administration over in the United Kingdom. And I thought, he was behind the scenes there. He has a great perspective on the inner workings of how. we ended up going to war in Iraq and lots of the other--. and, I'm sure, opinions about NATO, and Donald Trump, and all kinds of other things. So I'm just going to get to it. I'm excited to talk to him again.

It's been a long time. But please welcome an old friend, Alastair Campbell. [MUSIC PLAYING]. So let us now, we are joined, thank goodness, from someone who can give us the view. from across the Atlantic, our special relationship--. it's Alastair Campbell, co-host of the Rest Is Politics. But, obviously, Alastair Campbell, writer, podcaster, campaigner, strategist. Worked with Tony Blair, worked with every Labour politician.

known to man, and a co-host with. our good friend, Rory Stewart. Alastair. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Jon, thank you so much for such. a lovely welcome. JON STEWART: It was a lovely welcome, wasn't it? It's a delight to see you again. It's been too many years. And I have to say, what an exciting time. to reconnect as the world-- we're doing it again, Alastair. Welcome to another episode of the exciting series. Let's Go to War in the Middle East. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Yeah.

Well, I remember you once absolutely skewered. me at the end of one of your--. JON STEWART: I would never. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: You did. It was well done, though, because I thought, I've got-- this was on The Daily Show. I'd just published my first volume of diaries. And I was really on a roll. And I was getting through it. And I said, look, this book is just. trying to show that, in the end, politicians are just human beings. And you just said "like Iraqis" and moved away--. [LAUGHTER]. And on to the next item. So you did well. JON STEWART: Oops. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Yeah. You did well.

You did well. Yeah. JON STEWART: Well, look, famously, you were with Tony Blair. You wrote his speeches. You were his press secretary during that time. in the run-up to the Iraq War. So, from your vantage point, how does this Iran war differ? How does the relationship between the United. States and Great Britain differ in the run-up to this? And what are your general thoughts on what we're seeing? ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Well, I think the first thing to say.

is that I know that a lot of people. will now say, because of the way. the intelligence panned out, that we got it wrong. But there was a genuine belief that there was a growing threat. from Saddam Hussein, which I don't believe there is anybody. beyond Donald Trump saying there. was a growing threat from Iran right now to the United States. The second thing I would say, the big difference, is that Congress was involved. And even though there were people.

in the American administration at the time, notably Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld, who didn't particularly want to go down the United Nations. route, George W. Bush at least tried. to get some kind of agreement through the United Nations. I think, then, the other thing I would say in relation. to the so-called special relationship--. and I didn't even know this, Jon-- it's 80 years to the week. that that phrase was first coined. JON STEWART: What? ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Yep. In a speech by Churchill. JON STEWART: Did you write that speech, Alastair?

ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: No, I'm only 68. I would have written it. I would obviously have thought of that. And do you know what I think is really interesting when you. go back and read that speech--. JON STEWART: Yeah. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: --is he wasn't saying. this is a special relationship from the point. of view of an equal. If you read it carefully, you get the feeling. he's saying that we really want this. to be a special relationship. Now, it has been on many, many levels. But it's become a bit of a cliché, the special relationship. So Harold Wilson, famously, did not.

support America with troops in the Vietnam War, and he kind of survived. But I think at the time of the Iraq War, Tony Blair was pretty--. he was absolutely sure that unless there. was a fundamental breach on the approach, then we had to be with the Americans. What I think you've seen here is Keir Starmer, the British. Prime Minister, who is on record as saying we have. to learn some lessons from the Iraq War, and one of them. is you have to be pretty sure that you're.

going into something where you know what you're going into. You have to be pretty sure about the legality. And, I mean, Trump has thrown his toys. out the pram several times at Starmer. because Starmer would not engage in the initial attacks. And he's basically said you can use our bases, but only for defensive purposes, et cetera. But that has clearly upset Trump. I don't think, fundamentally, it's upset the kind of meat. of the special relationship. My sense is the intelligence agencies still.

work together pretty well. The defense people work together pretty well. But we're in a different era. And I don't think we're in a different era because. of any change on our side in our attitudes. to the United States of America. But I think we're in a different era because. of the personality and the character of Trump. and this administration. JON STEWART: That's an interesting point, because I wonder if we're in a different era, because people view authority, and expertise, and government differently-- that our adventures in Iraq.

so eroded the credibility--. I mean, I think you can draw a straight line. between the United States interventionism. and maybe even the immigration crisis in Europe and Brexit, and that-- it's so interesting because you talk about Blair. I thought Blair and Bush seemed like peers, that there was. a relationship of, I don't want to say equals,

because I think the arrogance of the United States. wouldn't allow for equals. Starmer, bless his heart, who came in on such a rush. and whose popularity is now somewhere between Liz Truss. and Liz Truss' lettuce, he doesn't. seem to be on that same level. And so is the relationship changed--. and maybe that's because nobody can be with Trump. because he won't allow it. He considers himself a Pharoah, so it's impossible to have.

that kind of relationship. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Well, I mean, what's so interesting about this. is over the course of the first part of Trump's second term, Keir Starmer seemed to be developing that relationship, in that-- now, I always thought it was likely to collapse. because, as you say, I don't think Trump. recognizes, or appreciates, or respects. anybody apart from himself. But Keir Starmer, who's not a showy guy, but the whole thing of dipping into his pocket, and pulling out the letter, and the invitation from the King--.

JON STEWART: It was so bad. It felt so obsequious when he said, "this. has never happened before.". You know, and when he pulled it out, I thought, oh, my god, it's a Target gift card. What is that he's got in his pocket? ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: It's a letter from the King. JON STEWART: A letter from the King. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: And, of course, in Trump's head, Trump basically thinks he's the King of your country. JON STEWART: Sure. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Keir Starmer is, like, bringing this missive from the actual head. of your country, the King. JON STEWART: Oh. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: So even though, as you say, you could cringe at it, and you cringed at it,

and maybe I cringed a little bit, but at the same time, it did the job. And then the state visit came along. And, for a while-- so, for example, take the tariffs--. Trump did seem, for a while, that he wanted. to be a little bit nicer to the UK than he was being to others. Now, what seems to have really royally pissed. him off is the fact that when he picked up the phone. and said, oh, by the way, Bibi's been on the phone, Keir, and we're bombing Iran tomorrow--. and it'd be great if you guys came along.

And that seems to me was the level of preparation. he was expecting a yes answer to. JON STEWART: That's right. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Keir Starmer said no. Now, where you're also right, Keir Starmer. is not a kind of Bill Clinton, Tony Blair, Barack. Obama kind of politician. And I think part of the reason, maybe, why he got a landslide. victory here is because this country was sick of people. like Boris Johnson being prime minister. and people like Donald Trump dominating the debate.

the whole time. And, therefore, why don't we get somebody a bit more. serious, a bit of a lawyer. And that has not, in terms, certainly, if you look at the polls, that has not worked out well. JON STEWART: Do you think that's because, in some. respects, he gets in on this huge movement towards Labour, and then he decides my best strategy is, what if we governed like a sort of Thatcherism lite? Like, we go with austerity, and we go--. and everybody was like, wait, I mean,

it really has fueled the more extremes, I think, in England, the way that he's gone about it. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Britain. JON STEWART: Britain. Sorry. What'd I say? ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Britain. You said England. JON STEWART: I meant UK. I meant Britain. I meant Great Britain. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: You meant Great Britain. JON STEWART: That's what I meant. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you're right, it has. It has. But you have to ask yourself whether that. would have happened anywhere in Europe right now. Now, it's so interesting-- this week has actually. been very, very interesting.

You had some big elections in France. at the weekend for all the mayors. And the far right did not do as well as they expected to. You had Meloni yesterday losing a referendum. on judicial reform. Here, finally, I think we are through peak Farage, and he's starting to dip in the polls. JON STEWART: You can never have peak Farage. You know that. Now, why is that-- even Farage is backing away. from Trump at this moment. Is it that Trump is, although he did visit him at Mar-a-Lago,

I think, last week--. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: He didn't see him. He didn't see him. JON STEWART: Oh, well, if you can't get. an audience with the king--. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: He was stood up. He was stood up by the kids. JON STEWART: Yes. You know why? He should have told him, I have in my pocket--. and then he would have been ushered in and been. given a greeting there. Look, I want to go back to this, because you were. with-- you said something earlier that I thought. was really interesting. There was a sincere belief that Saddam Hussein was a growing. danger, and that that is why--.

I don't think there's any question that the Ayatollah. in Iran was a danger. But is that the bar that we now look at as intervention? And is it possible that the lesson of Iraq, and Afghanistan, and now Iran, and all the way back. to Sykes-Picot and whatever else we want to take it to is. that the West can influence, but they can't control.

And that if we don't learn the difference between those two, we are destined for these utterly. foreseeable consequences of our cavalier and. arrogant interventions? ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Well, I certainly see this one more. clearly in that light than I did Afghanistan. and Iraq at the time. But if you look at the--.

JON STEWART: Why, though, Alastair? ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Well, partly because I was there. and we were trying to-- because we did. believe what we were saying, because we were trying to build. a coalition, and there was a coalition, of sorts, that. was being built. But, to be absolutely honest, I think because of the motivation of Trump. Trump is such a huge and consequential figure. And if you have a view as settled as mine, that he is. amoral, that he is all about himself,

that he is corrupt, that he is enriching himself, and his family, and his friends as. he sort of marauds around the place--. JON STEWART: Yes. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: --I have to dig really, really deep. to find a positive motivation. Now, that being said-- that being said, Iran is a horrible regime. But I think what you're saying in your question is actually. to the point that maybe, given the cost of Afghanistan. and the fact that the Taliban are back in charge-- now, I would argue Iraq is a better country than it was,

but I accept there was a massive cost in life, in money, and all the rest. But I wonder what you're saying is, isn't it better and less arrogant. for the West to do what it can to pursue. a policy of containment about some of these threats. that we see in different parts of the world? And that was what the JCPOA was all about. JON STEWART: I think that's exactly what I'm saying. And so we have a view that violence.

can solve any of these issues. We did it in-- it wasn't just Iraq and Afghanistan. It was Libya. It was Syria. We were arming rebel groups as we went through there. And we can talk about, is Iraq in a better place than it. was under Saddam Hussein? I think the question is, is that our decision to make? America seems to forget that, enshrined in our Constitution, is this idea that people would like to be in charge.

of their own governments-- that taxation. without representation. I won't get into the whole thing. You may have read about it years ago. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Indeed, I have. Indeed, I have. JON STEWART: But this idea that we can say to Iranians, your government is terrible and you're suffering--. and they clearly are. And they clearly hate them. And they clearly-- and so we're going. to make the decision, as we did in Iraq. that you'll be better off.

And that's the arrogance that I'm talking about. China does it a different way. They say, I'm going to influence you. through infrastructure, or I'm going to flood. your markets with cheap goods. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Yeah. JON STEWART: But it's certainly different than how. the West does it. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: I totally agree with that. And I think that is a lesson that Keir Starmer was pointing. to when he said we have to learn some of the lessons. of these past interventions. And, look, I think we're in a place in the world right. now exacerbated by the character.

and the personality of the current incumbent occupant. of the White House. You mentioned Brexit earlier. I would argue that Brexit was an indication of a country, our country, for whatever reason, deciding to go along with its own decline, OK? I think your choice of Trump for a second term. is an indication of America deciding to go. along with its own decline. And the arrogance that you talk about--. when you hear that vile Hegseth sort of spraying us with stuff.

from the Bible, and telling us about what to believe, and all this stuff, whilst clearly glorifying, in the sense of domination and violence of other people--. JON STEWART: It's almost sexual for him. It almost feels as though it's erotic. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Wow. I mean, that is a horrible thought. that I'd never had before. JON STEWART: Oh, you gotta watch him. You gotta watch him more. There's a reveling in it.

ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: There is a reveling, no doubt about it. JON STEWART: Stunning. He came out the other day-- no quarter, no mercy. Like, just blatantly saying, like, you know those things. that we came up after World War 2 to try and prevent, the horrors? Yeah, we're getting rid of all that. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Yeah. JON STEWART: We're just going in. Might makes right. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Stupid rules of engagement. JON STEWART: Stupid rules of engagement. When did you ever think of somebody that. has some authority over the worst weapons. in the entire universe?

ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Never. [MUSIC PLAYING]. JON STEWART: Today's episode that you're currently. listening to has a sponsor--. sponsor by the name of Surfshark VPN. What, pray tell, is Surfshark VPN? Well, here's the thing. I don't know what you do on your computer, but chances are you don't want me to know. what you do on your computer.

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That's Surfshark.com/JonStewart and use code "Jon Stewart". to get four extra months. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Rory Stewart and I--. do you love sharing the name with the UK's top podcaster? JON STEWART: I made mine up completely. So, yeah, I do love it. I could have gone with anything. I could have gone with Gervais. I could have done anything. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: But you went with Stewart. Well done. But I quoted yesterday, when we were recording this week's.

podcast, that a piece in the New York Times last week. by a guy called Phil Klay--. he's a novelist now, but he served in the military in Iraq, and he was saying similar things about the Iraq War. that you've just been saying. But he did say, at least I knew what I was doing. The American military involved in this, they do not know what they're doing, because every day they. get given a different message. One minute, it's killing Khamenei. Me, the next minute, it's nukes. The next minute, it's ballistics. The next minute, it's bringing peace to the Middle East. And the one that completely did my head in,

Scott Bessent being challenged about the rising oil price, says it's worth 50 days of temporary price. rises for 50 years of peace in the Middle East. The idea that this is bringing peace to the Middle East. is nuts. JON STEWART: And the other thing that I would also say. is we start debating the methodology. behind how they did it. Like, well, if they had only gone and made. a better case or things, without really.

getting to the question of, should we. be doing these things at all? Not whether or not we should do it more forthrightly, or we should settle on just one reason. Because, listen, we all remember Iraq was very well. coordinated as far as building a coalition, going to the United Nations.

Now, it all turned out to be bullshit. But at least they respected us enough to go. through the process of lying to us, you know, reasonably well. Now, we're starting to say, well, why didn't they do it. that way, as opposed to I'm talking about a more. fundamental question within the West, which is, don't we have to rethink what. danger, as you said, is acceptable in a world.

of these growing weapons? Containment seems to be the only thing. you can reasonably do. It's almost as though we're saying, no, the recipe for war. is you start to seed it early that there's a growing danger. Then, you start to build allies towards what your end goal is. As long as you give Americans a clear distinction of what.

your three aims are-- like, once you get to three aims. and you've presented evidence, now. you've fulfilled your licensing requirements for war. And you may do it. Aren't we making a mistake by criticizing that part of it. rather than the actual bombing part of it? ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Well, I do think. on this that it's possible to criticize every aspect of this.

JON STEWART: Yes. No, yeah, You know what I'm saying. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: I do know what you're saying. But one of the things I find so stunning about Trump. is the extent to which your media, in particular, but our media does exactly the same, treating him like this. is a normal president. Donald Trump has said this. Donald Trump has posted this. Donald Trump has done this. And we then analyze it and we try. to find what we think the thinking behind it might be.

And I suspect we're nearly always wrong. JON STEWART: How would you treat him as a non--. I'm curious as to what that would look like. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: I'll give you an example. I'll give you an example. This week, Robert Mueller dies. So Robert Mueller, we know that Trump hates him. Trump puts out a tweet saying, I'm glad he's dead. OK? With all respect to Robert Mueller, I think that is the story about Robert Muller's death. But what happens is, because we think, well,

Trump's just kind of firing one of his mad rants off, we. say "Robert Mueller has died.". The man who investigated Trump has died. The normalization of utterly abnormal behavior. for a president, any president-- listen, Jon, there are people that I really don't like in the world. And when they die, I won't say anything, right? What I won't do is say, I'm really glad they're dead, OK? It is utterly abnormal. JON STEWART: It showed growth, though, Alastair.

Because if you saw what he said after Rob Reiner was murdered, this is real growth. He's gone from being kind of a manbaby to now. he's in his angsty teenage years. like, I don't care if you're dead. I wish you were dead. Now, he's like a petulant teenager. now where he used to be just a giant fucking baby. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: What was he vis a vis Charlie Kirk? When people like me, who were saying nothing, were being attacked on social media by the MAGA.

crowd for saying nothing-- for not saying that he was a saint. JON STEWART: He was a hypocrite and a contradictory figure. The point is, we do talk about this. I have to tell you, like, 24-hour news cycles--. but here's how we talk about it. News anchors will bring on a Republican politician, and they'll say to that Republican politician--. and you've had this game played out, having been in the press. And they'll say to that politician, was that appropriate for the president to say that? And then they'll say some version of--.

I think Scott Bessent even said on the weekend shows, well, you have to have some grace for President Trump knowing what. we've put his family through. They're basically calling for empathy, an emotional state. that is utterly missing from that entirety of that movement. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Absolutely. JON STEWART: My point is, though, he's the president. You have to deal with the reality that we're all facing.

And I guess the policy should be, as we're talking. about, containment? ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Yeah. Absolutely. JON STEWART: Even with him. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Totally with him. JON STEWART: Yeah. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Here's another example, though. Look, I know he lies so much and he misrepresents the truth. JON STEWART: Man, it's wild. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Right. But it seems to me that most of the media. has given up even pointing that out.

So now I know he chooses his own friends. And he'll do Fox and Friends. And he'll phone up his podcast friends, and, therefore, they don't check him. But even the media that is not normally. completely in his pocket, to my mind, they just don't do enough of saying, excuse me, that is wrong. I'll give you another example. JON STEWART: Yeah. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Kaitlan Collins from CNN. JON STEWART: Yeah. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Or any of those reporters--. when he suddenly turns on a reporter in one. of those press conferences-- JON STEWART: That's right. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: --have none of them got the balls just. to stand up and say, excuse me, you do not talk.

to our colleagues like that? And if you don't like what I'm saying, kick us all out. JON STEWART: In fact, she's on an island, in a lot of respects, because she's relentless. And she does stay with it. The thing that you're doing, she does, that you're talking about. She will hold him to account. But they don't-- look, you know this as well as anybody. having worked in the press. Politicians learn how to use whatever form of communication. there is against them. When television first came out and politicians didn't quite.

understand the medium and didn't know how to use it, there was, I don't know if you remember. the Kennedy-Nixon debate. It was a huge-- it was the first time it was televised. And politicians didn't understand the medium. And so Kennedy went on television. looking like Kennedy-- tanned, and rested, and buff, and dressed. And Nixon was like makeup, what do I need makeup for? ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: And the sweat came. JON STEWART: Right. So he sweated. And if you watched it on television,

you said, oh, my god. Kennedy wiped the floor with him. And if you heard it on the radio, you said Nixon won. Politicians learn how to manipulate the form. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: OK. But my point is-- JON STEWART: Yeah. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: --I sense--. not guys like you. The satire is a different world. The satirists can have a field day. JON STEWART: But we're impotent. I mean, to a large extent, the frustration on satire. is it's an impotent form. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Well, up to a point. But my point, it's less impotent if the guys who are.

in the room and on the plane--. and I know how it works. They're worried that if they call him out, they don't get more access and what have you. But look at the credibility of the Pentagon. Now, you can talk about Hegseth and all. these sort of sexual desires for bombing. raids and all that stuff. But the fact is, what those reporters who. refused to go by these new rules and walked out, they have helped further to undermine his credibility. JON STEWART: No question. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Down the track, that becomes a problem for Hegseth, OK? Now, my point is with Trump--.

and, by the way, I think the other politicians--. I'll give you an example of this. So let's say when Trump was over here, he was in Scotland, he was doing something at one of his golf courses. Keir Starmer flies up from London. But Scotland, as I reminded you earlier, is part of the United Kingdom. He is Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. Donald Trump was behaving like he was the host. So I was pissed off with that for the start. But then the next thing that happened was while this, they. bring in the press, and he's doing one of his mad rambles,

and he starts going off on one at Sadiq Khan, the mayor. of London, who he doesn't like because he happens. to have very brown skin, OK? So he hates Sadiq Khan. And he never misses an opportunity. So he's sitting in Scotland as a guest of our prime minister, even though he's treating him like he's the host. And he starts. Now, if I'd have been Keir Starmer sitting there, I would have just leant over, put my hand on his arm, and said, Mr. President, when I go to the United States, I don't attack American politicians.

And I don't expect you to do it here. We've got to call this guy out. JON STEWART: Oh, would that have been a moment? ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Well, it would. JON STEWART: And, by the way, I think. it would have enhanced Starmer's reputation. and actually done him a world of good politically. Not only would it have been morally right, but it would have actually been politically. advantageous for him. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: And it might have. stopped him doing it again. It might not. But it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. What I think has to happen--. Mark Carney's Davos speech, the principles in that speech.

are what should be applied now, because there's barely. a leader in the world, apart from Donald Trump, who thinks. anything other than what he's done in the last month. is a catastrophe. JON STEWART: No question. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Economically, geostrategically, politically, the lot. JON STEWART: Well, I think Vladimir Putin. would disagree with that. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: We can come on to him. JON STEWART: I think he's quite excited about what. Donald Trump has done. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: I should have inserted the words. "democratically elected.". JON STEWART: There we go. Now we're talking. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: I get that. Right. But they're all having to deal with the fallout.

from what is, essentially, a catastrophic misjudgment. by a terrible president. Now, I'm not suggesting that Keir Starmer stands up. and says, this is a catastrophic misjudgment. by a terrible president. But I think all of them should get together and say, we have been put in this position. because the American administration. has decided to completely upend the world order. We, therefore, have to start to design and devise the world. order that follows this. JON STEWART: I mean, there have been rumblings of that. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Rumblings.

Rumblings are fine. But Trump doesn't rumble. He does the big bold brush strokes. And we need a few--. Carney's Davos speech was a big, bold brush stroke. We need more of them. JON STEWART: It's really difficult. to accomplish that when you're not dictatory, when you're not authoritarian, because they are-- look, you know as well as I do, Europe couldn't even. get a certain package to the Ukrainians because one country, Hungary, that's more aligned with Vladimir Putin, had the final say in it. So you're dealing with structural difficulties.

within democratic systems that make that kind of action. much more difficult. The second thing that you're dealing with. is the vindictive whims of an impulsive manbaby, who. has the full power and backing of the United States. military and economic force. And he wields it punitively. And so I think he has put you all in a great dilemma. through his actions. The thing that I want to get back to.

is the idea that you can look at Iraq, and Afghanistan, and Libya as examples of we weren't being run. by an authoritarian manbaby. We did go to our allies and make the case. We were working through the United Nations, and collaborating with allies, and not dismissing.

them and diminishing them. And we got the same fucking results. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: A fair point. A fair point. JON STEWART: That's the thing that I'm trying to get--. if we talk to Tony--. I don't know if you talk to Tony Blair anymore, but--. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: I do. I do. JON STEWART: OK. Tony Blair, my guess is-- and you can tell me. if this is wrong-- would be for intervention in Iran, or at least would lean towards making the case of the United. Kingdom, Great Britain, joining early on in a coalition.

of our great friend and neighbor, the United States, and taking this military action. Would that be fair? ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Well, I have discussed. it with him, because--. JON STEWART: Well, you know then. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Well, I'll tell you. why, because our newspapers a couple of weeks ago. were full of a story that he was at a private meeting. where he said something along those lines. JON STEWART: He said something along the lines of--. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Well, the papers.

said that he said something along the lines of we. should be involved in this. JON STEWART: OK. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Since when, I have basically said, Tony, what the fuck? And what he says he said is that-- because this was. a kind of Chatham House thing. JON STEWART: Off the record. Off the record. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Which, as you and I know, does not exist, particularly at that level. JON STEWART: Yes. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: So he was basically. saying, in an ideal world, Britain should be. alongside the United States. And he was saying that Iran is a terrible regime. So he wasn't quite saying what he was saying,

but he was saying enough for those headlines to be written. And those headlines were not good for Keir Starmer. So I did something I don't normally do on my podcast. I mildly rebuked my former boss. Just a mild rebuke, Jon. JON STEWART: Whoa. Now what does he do in that scenario? Does the red phone go off and you get--. Alastair? ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: The red phone got taken away years. ago, Jon. JON STEWART: Now, if he says, I want to do--. I think Iran is a terrible thing. and maybe we should be joining in, does he lose his seat on the Board of Peace?

Is that what happens? ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Oh, well, that's the question you'd. have to put to your president. I don't know. JON STEWART: When does the Board of Peace. meet to discuss what's going on in Iran? ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Well, it has met, hasn't it? JON STEWART: I believe it has. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Not to discuss Iran. JON STEWART: I believe the Board of Peace--. it was like Uzbekistan, and Tony, and a couple of other people. But, yeah, I do wonder, what does-- you know, do you have confidence that NATO can exert.

the kind of pressure on the United States. to contain some of our worst impulses. now that this president is in charge? ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Phew. Look--. JON STEWART: No, that was not optimistic. That was all of the air leaving your body. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Well, where your current president, like several of his predecessors, has a point. is that Europe did take American security.

and the peace dividend for granted, OK? We slightly inhaled the end of history, and we're all going to be nice liberal democracies. But the Americans have got-- the Americans. have got the big stuff. And America's always going to be the big player in NATO, and we're all part of NATO. Trump, go back to term one, this. is why I was so worried about Trump getting term two. and being more organized--. he was always ambivalent about NATO. I've reached-- NATO exists as a defensive alliance.

And, through the Cold War, what was NATO's basic enemy? It was the old Soviet Union. JON STEWART: Sure. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: What has Vladimir Putin. done, or is he trying to do? He's trying to recreate that sense of the old Soviet. Union and Russian hegemony. Now, I have reached a point of feeling--. and, as we know, we because Karoline Leavitt tells us, feelings are very important because he felt that--. JON STEWART: It's in his bones. He'll know it's over when it's in his bones.

ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: He felt something. And that would tell him what to do. But I've reached the feeling that Trump is on Putin's side. when it comes to Ukraine. Well, if you're on Putin's side, you're not on NATO's side. And the other thing which makes me really worried about NATO. is that he continues to talk this nonsense about both Canada. and, more significantly, about Greenland. JON STEWART: Right. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: And insults Danish troops and insults. British troops-- they kept away from the frontline. in Afghanistan when substantial numbers of them died.

And so it's hard to-- and then you throw in-- we had a guest. on the podcast last week, Pedro Sanchez, the Spanish prime minister--. I mean, you know, who--. JON STEWART: Who has seen his profile raise dramatically. for doing to Trump exactly what you believe Starmer should have. done with a hand on the leg. He did it in a sort of a bolder, more pronouncement of, no, we're not getting involved in this. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: He did it in relation to this. I think Keir Starmer has got to the right position on this.

And he's expressed it in the right way. He's done it in a way that has not offended Trump. And it shouldn't--. JON STEWART: He's threading the needle. OK. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Yeah, exactly. Whereas Sanchez is absolutely out there. And if you listen to the interview, he goes even further in saying that. all sorts of stuff about Trump that Trump. would not like to hear. JON STEWART: But was it accurate? Were the things he was saying accurate? ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Yeah, I would say so. 100%. 100%. JON STEWART: There you go. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: But here's the other thing about Trump, because I think, look, you know this. You've studied politicians and you've studied big characters. for a long time in your life--.

never underestimate the power of hubris. I think that, if you think about some of the things. that Trump did in the past, and you think. about his psychology-- comes in first term, and the whole narrative around it. is he's having to be surrounded by grown-ups. And he gets rid of them. And he sacks them left, right, and center. And the whole sense is of chaos. Second time around, Project 2025 Stephen Miller--. they're much better organized. They know what they're going to do. They're going to-- Musk with his nonsense. with DOGE and all that. They're going to come in. It's going to be different.

And it is different this time. And what I think he--. so he's thinking, right, they told me-- all these experts. they told me if I move the Israeli embassy to Jerusalem, there's going to be fucking mayhem in the Middle East. Didn't happen. If I go into Venezuela and chop Maduro's legs. and take him out--. and it was, to be fair, if you're. looking at purely militarily as an operation, it was impressive, OK? You get the guy, you take him out, and then you do a little deal with Delcy Rodriguez, and things calm down.

So everybody said to me, if I take out Maduro, there's going to be absolute chaos in Latin America. Didn't happen. He then thinks-- and he's got Epstein coming at him--. Epstein, Epstein, Epstein. He wants it out of the news. I don't know if that's the motivation, but it's a part of it, I guess. He thinks he's going to do the same in Iran. So when he says, my message to the Iranian people. is we do this, you rise up, and you. take control of your country, he. thinks that's going to happen. Then when he sees it doesn't, he has to have a new narrative. So the narrative changes. And, of course, he's got--.

the difference between any previous president. is he has got public opinion, a large chunk of it, that is going to stay with him whatever he does. When he said he could shoot somebody on Fifth Avenue. and his base would forgive him, I'm afraid it's true. JON STEWART: I'm afraid it's true. But I also think that, look, the laws of Icarus. will always prevail. And, to be fair, he has lived a life of very little.

accountability for what could ostensibly be considered truly. awful actions or irresponsible actions, whether it be through bankruptcies. or through personal, let's call them, foibles. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Yeah. JON STEWART: But he's never really been held to account. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: You run out eventually. JON STEWART: At a certain point--. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: You run out. JON STEWART: Hey, man, running a business, not easy.

That's all I'm going to say. Not easy. A lot of times it's hard to find good people. and all those kinds of things. And if you've got a business, you're feeling, I don't know, like I could use some more people-- some more. people that maybe are good at this. and not necessarily bad at this. Well, how do I figure that out? Well, we got yourselves a solution. You got yourselves Upwork. It's a one-stop platform. You find, hire, and pay expert freelancers--. not your amateur freelancers, not.

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And it's free to sign up. Visit Upwork.com right now and post your job for free. That is Upwork.com to connect with top talent ready to help. your business grow. That is U-P-W-O-R-K Upwork.com. [MUSIC PLAYING]. So, Alastair, do you have an idea if Trump is for Putin--. and I don't disagree with that. But I also think it's not necessarily. that it's NATO and Putin.

It's that the United States and Trump. right now favor right wing populist government. If the old world order was communism versus democracy. or capitalism versus communism, the new world. order, in their minds, is woke versus unwoke. It's that sense of a conservative, let's face it, Christian governing body, where those things. are melded together.

And so they are more ideologically aligned. with Putin than Macron. They are more ideologically aligned with Orban. than they are with Starmer-- that the idea that we can lead. liberal democracies in any kind of capacity. kind of goes out the window when the operating system. that they would like to run is more authoritarian and.

more nativist. And so we're no longer natural allies within that regard. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Yeah. Well, just this week, Netanyahu went. to Hungary to back Orbán in this upcoming. election on April the 12th. JON STEWART: Really? ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Yeah. JD Vance is reported to be heading there. Donald Trump has done a video backing Orbán. I mean, all the rules of diplomacy have gone.

JON STEWART: Well, JD Vance went to Germany and suggested--. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: And backed the AFD. JON STEWART: And backed the AFD and said, how dare you censor? Meanwhile, they don't say a word about Putin. They don't say a word about whatever censorious, or authoritative, or any of those kinds of things. occur in those countries. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Not at all. Not at all. And, look, I think you're right. And this is why I talked about the way. that the media treat Trump, as though he's. a normal president-- but also, Trump's allies treat him.

like he's a normal president. And I think we've got to stop doing that. JON STEWART: But you're calling for courage. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: I certainly am. JON STEWART: You're calling for something that is in--. it may be in shorter supply right now than oil. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Maybe. JON STEWART: There may be a choke point. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Let me tell you this. Let me tell you this. I was at Davos. And I was in the room for the--. I only went in the room for two speeches. One was Trump, where I regret to say. that my mild heckling didn't catch on. with all the people around me.

[LAUGHTER]. There was no courage in that room. And I was in for Carney's. Now, the thing is, I have it on very good authority. that, since Carney's Davos speech, Trump has phoned Carney more than Carney has phoned Trump. And I think that that is a response to a bit of courage. It is true that Sanchez, who has really gone for Trump, will probably pay a price. Trump will find a way of making him pay a price.

But I think in doing what he's done--. I'll tell you one thing he's done, he's made himself. a site more popular in Spain than he was, which is not important when you're. the prime minister of Spain. JON STEWART: So he's an interesting cat because now he. goes out and he sort of nationalizes, I guess, 500,000 refugees, or immigrants, or something, which you would think goes counter to what. the general movement in Europe is, and certainly. on the populist right.

But, let's face facts, the populist right. is not a fringe movement, by any means, when it comes to Europe. But yet, he stands up to Trump. And do those things offset? Or are they part of the same kind of, no, we're. not going to follow? Does it put him in threat to right wing populism in Spain? ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: It may do.

Certainly, the right wing populism. in Spain, the Vox party campaigned. pretty heavily on immigration. JON STEWART: Right. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: But he is also. showing courage in going out and making. the case for immigration. And he did it in our interview. He basically said there is a moral case, and there is an economic case, and I'm making them both. And I think we need to hear more of that. JON STEWART: We certainly need to hear. more of the economic case. And there was a study, I think it was by the Cato Institute. here in the United States, which is, by no means, a liberal organization--. libertarian right-- and they made the case.

that, economically, this type of immigration. is actually much more of a net positive. than it has been given credit for. That doesn't mean that it'll be politically successful. But part of the problem we have in the United States. is very few people take the time, because of the attention. deficit of the populace--. you said earlier that they normalize Trump, and they don't say that he lies. They do say that he lies, but they use a shorthand.

What they don't do is show their work. So you very rarely will see-- this happened. a lot in the election. The phrase was "the big lie.". And the big lie got coined to describe Donald Trump's. complaint about the 2020 election. that he lost, but said that he won. So they would talk about, this is the big lie. What they didn't do very often is walk through why what.

he was saying was incorrect. Because our news has taken on the circadian. rhythms of social media. It all goes-- there's very little room to breathe. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: But there's also--. the characters who are taking it over. are largely politically motivated.

I mean, that is--. JON STEWART: Ideologues. No question. No question. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: So I don't think you can really say--. would you really say America has a free, fair media today? You're free to do what you do. But, as a whole, does your media do the job. that it was doing in the--. I can't imagine a Watergate--. I mean, he does worse than Watergate 10 times a day. JON STEWART: I think, certainly, the algorithm and the bifurcation of the media.

has made it more polarized. And, certainly, look, the whole point of Fox News. was Roger Ailes worked for Nixon. And Roger Ailes is the one who founded. Fox News, along with Rupert Murdoch, who, by the way, thank you for him. He's done such good work here in America. We really appreciate--. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: He's an Australian. JON STEWART: He's Australian, but he made his bones--. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: He's actually an American now. He's an American citizen. JON STEWART: Oh, is he really? ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Yes, he is. Otherwise, he wouldn't have been able to own Fox News.

JON STEWART: Good for him. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: So he's on you. I agree with you. He's been--. JON STEWART: Net negative. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Net, net, net, net, negative, negative, negative. JON STEWART: Terrible. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Gavin Newsom was on our podcast. a few weeks ago. And tell me if you agree with this-- he said without Murdoch, there is no Trump. JON STEWART: I think that's probably correct. I would say without Murdoch, there's. probably no George Bush. But, that being said, I think what they did is intentional.

They intentionally created those things. to buffer their politicians from that sense. of accountability because they viewed that accountability. as merely left wing posturing, and left wing virtue signaling, and left wing. And so now you see that Fox News. is not right enough for Trump. That's the thing about Trump is he's insatiable. But let me ask you, you had Newsom on. So here, Newsom is obviously-- he's one of the few politicians.

that can compete in an attention economy in the way. that Trump does. He's created this sort of trolling persona. that he goes with. What was your sense of him as a viable--. the way that I process him is, like, man, that dude is thirsty. And it's hard for me to move past that, in some respects. What was your thought process? ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: What does that mean? JON STEWART: Thirsty? ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Yeah.

JON STEWART: He wants it. He wants it in a way that is more ambition than--. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Conviction. JON STEWART: --conviction. That it's less principle and more politics. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: I didn't get that impression. JON STEWART: Oh, great. There you go. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Two reasons. Two reasons. One-- now, this may have been the bullshit. JON STEWART: But, then again, you worked for Blair. So I'm going to take it all with a grain of salt. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Well, hold on. Tony Blair is a man of conviction--. ambition and conviction. He's still got both. JON STEWART: Fair enough. Fair enough. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: And I will defend. him to my grave for Northern Ireland peace process alone.

JON STEWART: All right. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: No, I liked Gavin Newsom a lot, because I'd kind of only seen the hair, and the teeth, and the suits, and what have you. JON STEWART: Yeah, yeah. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: And he looks like a kind of pretty identikit. American politician, right? JON STEWART: Yes. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: But I found him to be. very charming, very clever. And he's got courage. You talk about courage. He's got courage. He calls things out. He's really going for this.

The one thing that he said that--. he said at the end, I said, are you. definitely going to go for it? And he said, the only people who got a vote. are my wife and my children. And some of them like it-- some of them are keen, some of them. are not. And I thought, mmm--. JON STEWART: He's going. I mean, come on. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: I thought he's definitely going for it. JON STEWART: Yes. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: I got the sense. that his view of the California thing. is that it's a big bonus while he's getting the nomination, and then it becomes a bit of a handicap. He's got to work out ways of dealing with that. JON STEWART: I think that's right. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: But I found him pretty.

compelling and pretty tough. I thought he was tough. I liked him. JON STEWART: OK. Well, fair enough, then. But thank you for being candid about those various things. I want to revisit just a moment. We talked about NATO's role in all this. and how Trump really is ideologically aligned more. with these strongmen, and certainly seems to prefer them. to anything else that he does. But I want to also ask, during your time in office, what your experience was with the Middle East powers.

Because Netanyahu has so--. I think, for my money. I believe he is not interested in diplomatic solutions. to almost anything, and that he has found his lane in violence. And he can all he wants about, well, we were attacked-- understood. And I'm not diminishing that. But you can't-- there's a difference between.

capability and ambition. And what he's trying to do is bomb. the ambition out of people. He's trying to bomb their will away. And I don't think that's something you can do. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: No. JON STEWART: People are resilient, and they will fight that. You may be able to diminish their capability, but, in doing so, their ambition. becomes even more resolute.

ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: I mean, again, going back to the Sanchez interview, because Spain and Ireland are the two countries in Europe. that are very, very pro-Palestinian. and the first to recognize Palestine state, et cetera. And I said to him, do you think Netanyahu is a war criminal? And he said, well, I'm not a judge. But he said Israel is more isolated than it has ever been. Now, I don't think--. Netanyahu's thinking, I think, as long as he's got Trump, for now, he thinks he's fine.

What I found terrifying about recent events. is that what is happening in the moment in Lebanon. is barely on the agenda. The settler violence in the West Bank at the moment. is off the scale, but it's--. JON STEWART: Exactly. By the way, what are the settlers even doing? How can you justify, if your goal is just. the security of your state and only-- why would you ever. be annexing other territory, which, obviously,

is going to take a lot more money and resources. to be able to defend? And all it does is bisect land that is clearly not yours? ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: But that is their strategy, to make it theirs. JON STEWART: Right. So that's my point. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Totally. JON STEWART: Is how can you say, I'm looking for an equitable and just. solution when your actual goal is. to just eliminate the problem?

ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Yeah. JON STEWART: For yourselves. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: There was a briefing--. I read quite a lot of the Israeli press, and there was a briefing in one of the papers the other day. where they literally said that the military strategy that they. were going to be pursuing in targeting Hezbollah in Lebanon. was the one that they used in Rafah. Now, Rafah was basically razed to the ground. JON STEWART: It was completely flattened. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Yeah. And the thing is that he can--.

we now do seem to be living in an era of impunity. We have to hope that when all this is through, that there. will not be impunity. JON STEWART: But it's coming from the supposedly elevated. countries of the world, the United States and Israel--. the ones that live with moral purpose. And yet, here we are. And, by the way, where is Saudi Arabia in all of this?

We've sent them more weaponry than almost anybody else. What is their role in this? What is their role in defending the Palestinians? What is anybody's role in this? I'm so confused. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: You're not alone. I mean, we're all confused. And I think that--. see, what Trump's support-- and I. don't want to put it all on Trump, but a lot of it. is on Trump. But what his supporters continue to say.

is, oh, the trouble with you guys. is you don't understand-- he's all about strategic chaos. and strategic ambiguity. But you just get the feeling he's literally making it up. as he goes along day by day. And that's why I do worry. I was at an event, a meeting recently. with some of the different European intelligence people. And one of them said, do you think this might be leading. us into the third World War? And another one said, well, what if we're already in it?

And the thing that really worries. me is that the level of hubris, the ego, alongside--. see, I think you're right about Netanyahu. Netanyahu, he wants to survive politically. Do you know, by the way, he was the first Israeli Prime. Minister we met back in 1997. He was there then as prime minister. So this is a guy who knows how to survive. He wants to survive. Right now, based on the approach he's taking in Iran,

because you've got to understand, it's much more popular in Israel. than it is here in the UK or on the US--. he thinks this might be the way to winning. the next general election. He's got Trump completely. And then all the Gulf powers, Saudi's obviously a very, very. interesting question-- what's happening. with their relationship with the other Gulf powers? JON STEWART: Well, it just came out today. They said Mohammed bin Salman has been calling President. Trump and urging him to finish the job-- that this is. a unique opportunity to reshape the dynamic of the Middle East.

I mean, obviously, there's the Sunni-Shia rift. And as Iran-- and this is, in no way, excusing the mullahs and the actions that they've taken. on their own people and through Hezbollah, and Hamas, and all. those other bad actors--. But if Mohammed bin Salman is calling up Donald Trump. and saying, finish the job-- well, you've just bought $15 billion of the highest. tech weaponry any country can possibly possess.

What are you doing? And as far as the Palestinians, I think they've. spent more money on sport. They gave more money to Phil Mickelson. than they did to the Palestinians. Like, I don't understand any of the dynamics over there. or what we're hoping to achieve. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Well, and that is the problem that we're. all wrestling with right now. And the thing that I find terrifying. is that Trump is so powerful.

JON STEWART: But he did not develop-- that power comes. from the stability-- and he's destroying the very foundation. that gives him his power. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Right. But these countries that have invested hundreds of millions. in projecting themselves as safe, as stable--. and that safety and stability has been based on the fact. that they've developed this relationship. with the United States. And the United States has now destroyed it.

And, meanwhile, they're all looking at each other. and thinking, Trump will now be trying to divide and rule. The Israelis will be trying to divide and rule. We're not going to hit that one as hard. as we're hitting that one. They're not as bad. And so, look, it is absolutely terrifying. And the answer to the question--. I was tended to agree with the guy. who said, well, maybe we are already in third World War. And that is why this is all about--. this is where values have to be reimposed. And I think what's happened since Trump's second term began.

is the eradication of any sense of there being. values at the heart of this. He doesn't talk about-- he talked. about the people rising up, but he never talks about democracy. He's not interested-- at least George Bush. used to talk about, let's try and create. a stable democracy in Iraq. JON STEWART: Is democracy no longer. an operating system that--. we used to say, like, well, we're going to bring democracy. And that sort of was coupled with a kind of prosperity, and stability, and a rule of law,

and all those other things that created the power of the United. States that we so randomly squander. at so many different times. Do you think that democracy still has the credibility. as an operating system? Or has it so been tainted by the mistakes that were made. in Iraq, or the mistakes that were made in immigration. policy, or the inability to solve.

some of the bureaucratic issues that occur within the EU? Brexit is an example of a rebuke of that system. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Yeah. JON STEWART: Do we need to also shore up the results. that democracy can deliver for their populations? ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Well, the one that you didn't put. in there, which I think is the biggest of the lot, is the fact that we've had a generation growing up. with no guarantee whatsoever that they're.

going to be better off than their parents' generation. I think that is what's driving a lot of what's in Europe. I think that, look, there are various things. I think if you go back--. JON STEWART: This shit has gotten dark, Alastair. We're going to have to somehow find a way to pull out of this. But we're getting dark here. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Oh, I'm sorry. Well, let me just give-- let's do this. Let's do this. JON STEWART: Come on, Mr. Sunshine. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Oh, god. Yeah, well, should I get my bagpipes. out and play you a tune? [MUSIC PLAYING]. JON STEWART: Do you like nature?

Is that an improper question? Do you like nature? Or are you more of a concrete guy or gal? Are you one of those people that you see trees and flowers. and you're like, oh, no? Get me a wall. I'm most comfortable staring at a wall. Well, that is not--. that is not where it's at, people. This is about greenery. This is about green space. This is about being as one with nature.

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FastGrowingTrees.com code TWS. Now's the perfect time to plant. Let's grow together. Use TWS to save today. Offer is valid for a limited time. Terms and conditions may apply. [MUSIC PLAYING]. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: So if you go back, my friend Mr. Scaramucci has written a new book, which. is coming out later this year, and he. talks about the three big mistakes. that he thinks have driven us to where we are. JON STEWART: OK. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: The first is Seattle, where globalization.

with China--. China was brought in, and lots of trade unionists. and lots of working class people. said, no, no, no, this is a mistake. And the globalizers, and I would include myself in that, were basically saying, no, no, no, you've got to bring China in. And this is the way to do it. JON STEWART: You're talking about when they. invited China into the WTO. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Into WTO. Yeah. Yeah. And so the economic and social consequences of that. The second one he cites is the Iraq. War without putting up taxes.

In other words, saying we can have this massive war, but don't worry, you won't have to pay for it. And then the third one is bailing out the banks. So he's putting--. JON STEWART: The 2008 financial crisis. Right. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: And so these-- so I--. JON STEWART: I'm going to add--. I'm going to add COVID to that. I'm going to add what people consider. to be the government's arrogance. during the COVID crisis. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: OK. OK. Well, all of these things-- and you're right, by the way. And you go back to the question you asked,

is democracy up to dealing with this? The problem is that China, less so Russia, because Russia. is a separate case--. but China is definitely looking at our democratic systems. and saying, they're your problem. They're your problem. You can't do stuff like we do stuff. I saw a Chinese diplomat not long ago, and I was going on about, yeah, well, in the end, we're all going to do this, that, and the other. And people will still believe in democratic values.

and what have you. And we were talking about infrastructure. And he said to me--. I think he knew the answer--. because I think he'd heard me say. this somewhere on the media--. he said, when was the first discussion. that you had about building a third runway. at Heathrow Airport? And the answer was 1998. JON STEWART: Wow. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: And we're still talking about it. And he was saying--. JON STEWART: Wow. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: He was saying, I've lost count of how many airports. we've built since then.

So they're much more open about saying, your problem is your system. Democracy is not working. Putin-- why does Putin have a certain following. amongst the kind of hard right AFD, Farage, and these guys? What they like to say is, well, say what you like about him, but he gets things done. Right. What he gets done is, like, leading to hundreds. of thousands of deaths. JON STEWART: See, it's so interesting that-- because I. actually think you've got a much. better case to make with Xi and China in that regard.

And they certainly have their state run capitalism. and however they want to do it than you do with Putin, because Putin actually doesn't get things done. and makes incredible-- and is unbelievably. kleptocratic and corrupt. And what a terrible example. And I would say they would never align themselves. with the authoritarian nature of China, but they would with Putin. And the reason is they view him as a defender of what they.

call Western civilization. Not the Western civilization that you and I define. as the Enlightenment values that create the foundation. of democratic societies, but Western civilization. along the lines of racial and religious lines and ethno--. that's actually why they align there. They certainly can't point to results. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: And also views. on gays, and views on abortion, and views on women. The whole manosphere thing is wrapped up in this MAGA stuff.

So, no, listen, Putin and Trump are--. I mean, look, I know there's the whole theory about what's. Putin got on Trump. JON STEWART: I don't think he's got anything, to be honest. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: I think what he has on him is jealousy. I think that Trump wants to be rich. He wants to be as powerful. And he wants to be authoritarian. within his own country. JON STEWART: You know what's incredible? 15 minutes before Donald Trump announced that he wasn't going. to be bombing Iran's energy infrastructure after all,

the stock market insider traders made millions. And that's where we are. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Yeah. JON STEWART: So, in some respects, we are turning into just this explicit kleptocracy. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Yeah. But why is that not on the news every night? Why is the media so quiet and so scared? JON STEWART: I think it's on there. I think it's a harder--. look, we have enough trouble, as you said, from the 2008.

financial crisis. Insider trading, Polymarket, Kalshi--. I think they're overwhelmed. And, unfortunately, rather than a more. strategic news day what you find in our news day. is a redundancy. It's every hour after hour is the same rhythm of stories. So we're going to go down to the airports. and see the TSA line. And then we're going to go-- so they.

don't have an opportunity to delve. into the types of analysis. They leave that for podcasts like your podcast. and Rory Stewart's. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: But what about documentary. makers, filmmakers? JON STEWART: Oh, and I just got a note from here--. and news organizations now partner. with these prediction markets. So they're also corporate media. And they're also invested in profit. And they're also consolidating so that pretty. soon we're all going to be working. for the same one individual. But the point is they don't-- it's not that they don't have.

the resources, it's that they don't apportion them in a way. that strategically fights the corruption. that you're talking about. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Yeah. Well, it is a fight that has to be had. And, I mean, it's happening before our eyes. He doesn't even hide it. JON STEWART: No. He doesn't hide it at all. The scary point to me is you could say Great Britain has. a much more responsible media.

And yet, ultimately, your country. ends up making the same stupid decisions we do. So you begin to wonder, well, what. is the-- what is the solution? Let me end on this, because hopefully it's a more hopeful--. Alastair, in your experience and looking around, where do you see green shoots of a new, more robust defender. of liberal democracy, and the power that it should hold,

and the rule of law that can, again, create this kind. of stability and prosperity? Where are the green shoots in your mind? Don't pause like that. Don't pause. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: No, no, no. I was going to say the first obvious name that comes to mind. is Mark Carney. I think Mark Carney in Canada is doing a pretty good job. I think our attorney general, guy. called Richard Hermer, who's very close to Keir Starmer, he's made a speech this week-- making a speech this week,

which is very much this is the time now to fight. for human rights, fight for international law, because they're under threat as never before. Just had a great guy in Australia, just won a landslide in the South Australian election, a guy called Peter Malinauskas. He's a Labour candidate. He's absolutely wiped out the opposition, pretty much. I think that those results I mentioned in France, in Italy, I think--. I could be wrong, but if the election is free and fair.

in Hungary, Orbán will lose. JON STEWART: Right. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: There is a fight back. And I'll tell you where I get hope. The last two books I wrote were kids books about politics. And I now go into loads of schools. And it's true that you get some teenagers. who are totally locked up in the manosphere. and all that stuff. But my sense of the younger generation. is that they get how bad this is. And they know that it's going to be. on them to get us out of it. So I'm still broadly positive. I think the other thing I would say. is it's very hard not to allow-- if you're.

on the progressive side of politics, not to allow Trump to do your head in every day. JON STEWART: Understood. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Right. It's really hard not to do it, but it's. important to try, and to go out, and find the people, and find the arguments--. I see it in London every day, the MAGA crowd. They've got this obsession with London because of Sadiq Khan. JON STEWART: Yes. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: There's a whole industry. developed saying--. JON STEWART: Although now, Zohran Mamdani. has taken a little bit of the heat off Sadiq Khan. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: A little bit.

A little bit. OK. But there's a whole kind of industry across social media. and across parts of the right wing media in the States. basically saying--. I literally have friends phoning up saying, is it safe to come to London? Because they see all this shit. When you do come to London, you see probably still the greatest. city in the world. JON STEWART: Hey, hey, hey. Come on. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: When are you moving here, by the way? It's obvious you've got to move. You've got to move here. JON STEWART: Don't do New York City dirty.

Come on. Let's just--. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Listen. JON STEWART: No, listen, it's a beautiful city. I happen to love London very much. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Yeah, but the point is, what is it, within the MAGA crowd, other than the skin color. of our mayor, that has led them to this relentless-- this. goes back to your point about the no longer being our allies. JON STEWART: Well, it's incentivized. monetarily as well. You have to understand that. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: For sure, for sure. But when you have an American national security. strategy that talks about European. civilizational erasure--.

I would argue--. I travel around the European countries a lot. Let you in on a secret, Jon, it's nicer than the United. States of America. JON STEWART: Hey, hey, hey. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Oh, yeah. Better culture, better scenery, better everything. JON STEWART: Yeah. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: We're just better off here. And Britain would be better off if we were still part of it. JON STEWART: Well, then what you're saying. is Europe shall lead us out of the wilderness. That they have learned their lesson. through internecine fighting, and that is all over.

And they will lead the democratic liberal. establishment out of the wilderness, a reaffirmation of the Magna Carta. and the Enlightenment values. And and we shall do it there. Last question-- is the antidote to authoritarianism, morality or competence? ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: You got to have both. But I would say the values bit is the big part of it. JON STEWART: The foundation. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: 100%. It's what sort of people are we, what sort of countries. do we want to be? And I think that is what has-- that's. what Trump is driving out.

You talked about Netanyahu trying to bomb. the will out of people. What Trump does every day with his kind of genius level--. JON STEWART: Bombast. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: --crazy communication, he's trying to drive the--. he's trying to drive the good out of us. He's trying to drive the morals out of us. He's trying to basically say, let's. all be as bad as each other. JON STEWART: Let's all be realistic about just. how terrible we all are. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Yeah, exactly. It's not a very Christian message, is it? JON STEWART: It doesn't appear to be,

although that's not my jurisdiction. So I wouldn't quite know. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Nor mine. Nor mine. JON STEWART: But thank you so much for being with us. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: It's a pleasure, as always. JON STEWART: Fascinating, as always. Alistair Campbell, co-host of the Rest. Is Politics and, obviously, a vast career. as an author, and communicator, and all. those other incredible things. Alastair, please give my best to Rory. And I hope to see you guys soon over there in. that beautiful city of yours. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: See you soon. Take care. JON STEWART: All right. Bye, sir. ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Bye. [MUSIC PLAYING].

JON STEWART: Man, that got dark. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: They all do. JON STEWART: I will say this, though--. I think if anyone was going to narrate the end of the world, it should be a British person. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: 100%. LAUREN WALKER: Ease you into it a bit more? I think my favorite moment was you defining the word "thirsty". for him. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yes. GILLIAN SPEAR: Definitely mine as well. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: I was going to bring this up. JON STEWART: Did he not know "thirsty?". Yeah, he did. He said, like, what do you mean by that? GILLIAN SPEAR: Probably not in the colloquial sense.

I imagine he knows, like, the feeling of having thirst. JON STEWART: That's right. He's probably thinking to himself, like, I am a bit parched. It is nearing teatime. LAUREN WALKER: I did like you trying. to get more information for us about the Board of Peace. JON STEWART: Nothing. He gave--. LAUREN WALKER: Nothing. JON STEWART: It almost seemed as if he was. unaware of Tony Blair's role. LAUREN WALKER: Yeah. We moved past that pretty quickly. JON STEWART: Yeah. Yeah. No, we moved past that. And I loved the whole-- it was something that we never quite. reconciled on this, which was he. kept saying Trump is doing this the wrong way.

And I kept trying to get him back to, right, but we supposedly did Iraq the right way. But when are we going to start thinking. that maybe we shouldn't be doing any of this shit at all? LAUREN WALKER: Yeah. We're kind of still hung up on the lies portion, I think, of it. The news media, us, the reasons for why it's happening--. all these things, we're still stuck. just on that beginning part. But I guess because the lies are so abundant and quick,

there's not too much room to move on. JON STEWART: And I also think, look, hindsight is obviously--. and to say-- and he seemed to be pretty. clear about, like, look, we believed. what we were saying there. Maybe that's true for what was going on there. I don't believe that's necessarily true for America. I do think there were some real believers in that neocon. movement, but I think a lot of them. knew they were manipulating things cynically.

just to get what they wanted--. GILLIAN SPEAR: 100%. JON STEWART: --out of that. Yeah. Thank you, Gillian. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah. I think we've all come to terms with that. We've all accepted it. LAUREN WALKER: And what they wanted. were worthy goals for them. JON STEWART: That's right. We've all accepted those sorts of things. Are you familiar with this Spanish Sanchez? We should reach out. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: We could do it. We will. Yeah. JON STEWART: Guy's got some balls. He literally was like, you're not using our shit. I'm not giving-- no.

This is stupid. LAUREN WALKER: It's impressive because, yeah, not too. many leaders are willing to be so open about their dislike. of what's happening. As he was describing Starmer threading a needle. with what he says and does, it's. nice to see some authenticity. JON STEWART: Right. GILLIAN SPEAR: It was interesting what he said. about Carney, too, which is that-- like, I mean, whether or it's true that, like, Trump has been calling. him more than he's been calling Trump since he showed. a little bit of courage. And I don't know, it's kind of similar to what you said.

about Kaitlan Collins ones, which. is that maybe he kind of has respect for people. that push back a bit. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Mamdani. LAUREN WALKER: Exactly. JON STEWART: Yeah. That's exactly right. Those are three very good examples. And I do think that there is some of that. And I can believe it because Donald Trump is, if nothing else, a 12-year-old with a phone. Like, he's just-- he's on with everybody. But, Brittany, what do the kids want to know. this week as we move on? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yes.

All righty. Jon, with one of the most consequential midterm elections. in US history coming up--. JON STEWART: What? Maybe-- what? OK. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: --does anyone. really want Schumer or Jeffries as their starting quarterback? JON STEWART: Oh, first of all, the idea. that you would even consider them quarterbacks is--. like, I put them maybe on the o-line. GILLIAN SPEAR: Kickers? Yeah. JON STEWART: Yeah. Maybe a punter, special teams going through there. I mean, look, I don't understand the idea of Schumer.

to begin with. His passivity in the face of these really. kind of existential crises that occur is beyond me. And even the subtle adjustments that he makes, given the frustration of the democratic constituency writ. large is "I'll curse more.".

Like, even that is all show and not-- and it's frustrating. GILLIAN SPEAR: Incredibly. LAUREN WALKER: They're so, yeah, removed from I. think the day to day that just cursing seems. like it will hit our hearts. JON STEWART: We're fucking-- oh, we're fucking fighting back. We're going to fucking--. these motherfuckers have to be. Yeah. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: That's pretty good.

JON STEWART: Thank you. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Why doesn't he step down? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Oh, my lord. Why doesn't he cede power? These guys don't ever cede power. They run-- look, it was remarkable. when Dick Durbin, at 82, was like, I don't. think I'm going to run again. And you're like, yeah, of course not. GILLIAN SPEAR: Selflessness. Yeah. JON STEWART: You're fucking 82 years old. Stop. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: But isn't there a way for us to, like--. I just get frustrated. Like, isn't there a way for us to hold them accountable. and make that happen?

Some way, somehow. GILLIAN SPEAR: Like, voting. Sure. JON STEWART: I mean, it's such an internal--. the internal politics of Washington insiders. is something that is slightly impervious, unfortunately, to the voters. But the one thing I will say that the Democratic. Party could do is their system rewards only seniority. And so if you want to get anywhere. and you want to get any kinds of plum. assignments and all that, they only reward longevity. At least the Republicans don't even do that. They give them-- I don't know if it's two terms or three.

terms on certain committees, but they don't allow them. to just ensconce themselves in these offices. until fucking moss starts to grow up their legs--. or should I say [CHUCK SCHUMER IMPRESSION]. fucking moss. [LAUGHTER]. But I think the performance of these leaders. has been so, apparently, missing in action that I'd. be surprised that whatever new group--. but maybe other senators and representatives.

feel beholden to them. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah. There was reporting, I think, over the weekend. that there's, like, a Signal chat that, like, Chris Murphy, Elizabeth Warren, and maybe a few others. are in where they're talking shit. JON STEWART: Oh, my god. GILLIAN SPEAR: So they're plotting against Schumer. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: They're like, you know what's great? Let's get a Signal chat. That always goes well. JON STEWART: Who would ever find out about that?

It blows my mind that that's the, like-- because that is. something that you would see in, like, a high school dramedy. that's like, there's a chat. And some of the teachers and students are on it. Like, you just imagine-- it feels as what kind of Alastair. was talking earlier-- like, it feels so lacking in courage. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yes. JON STEWART: Like, I'm going to set up a little social media. chat for us. And we're going to talk about all. the things we would do if we had.

the balls to do it publicly. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yes. JON STEWART: I mean, fucked up. Brittany, what else we got? What are we talking about? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: All right. JON STEWART: Where else are we going? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: If you were a ghost, what would--. JON STEWART: Wait. What have they heard? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: What would be your go to casual haunt? JON STEWART: Well, first of all, I am slowly becoming one. As I become more translucent through hair color and lack. of pallor, I would haunt old music.

clubs that still allow smoke. My fondest sensory memories are from bartending in old, like, punk clubs where the heady aroma of cigarette smoke, stale beer, and violent tendencies.

Like, I love that aura. And I think I would probably--. that's where I would end up. But I don't know, where would you guys end up? Gillian, who would you haunt? Would you haunt? GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah. I'd be, like, courtside, Madison Square Garden. JON STEWART: So you wouldn't actually be haunting. GILLIAN SPEAR: I'm using it for the seats. LAUREN WALKER: You guys are haunting for good. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: I know. This is very, like, positive. I have, like, a list of situationships.

that, like, I'm going to go and torture just to be--. JON STEWART: Oh, Brittany, you're going full vindictive. So you're going kind of-- you're more Poltergeist. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yes. I would haunt the shit out of people. JON STEWART: OK. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. JON STEWART: I was just thinking more in terms of, like, what kind of atmosphere would. I like to exist in as opposed to, like, who could I fuck with? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. I'm getting payback, bitches. JON STEWART: Lauren seems also in the payback mode. LAUREN WALKER: I'm just-- we are in a crazy moment, and we get this question, and all.

I'm thinking is like, how do I mess with everyone who's. messing with our sanity now? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: But that's still for good. JON STEWART: So this is interesting. I went bar. Brittany went personal vendetta. Gillian just wants to see good basketball. [LAUGHTER]. And Lauren went halls of power. So your haunting could have some real efficacy. and an improvement. LAUREN WALKER: Or just make me smile.

GILLIAN SPEAR: And it's not always good basketball. Sometimes it's just basketball. JON STEWART: Yeah, it's a good point. Depending on what year it is, that's a good point. How do they keep in touch with us? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Twitter, we are WeeklyShowPod. Instagram, Threads, TikTok, Bluesky, we. are WeeklyShowPodcast. And you can like, subscribe, and comment. on our YouTube channel, The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart. JON STEWART: And you should. What's stopping you? Haunt us, for god's sakes. As always, thank you guys very much. Really enjoyed that conversation. Lead producer Lauren Walker, Producer Brittany Mehmedovic,

producer Gillian Spear, video editor and engineer Rob Vitola, audio editor and engineer Nicole Boyce, who were doing yeoman's work today. We were we were working intercontinentally, across the seas. And they were making it work, as Alastair's camera kept. trying to fly out the window. They had to make adjustments as the whole thing was going on. And our executive producers, as always, Chris McShane, Caity Gray. Thanks so much, guys. And we'll see you guys next time. The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart. is a Comedy Central podcast that's produced by Paramount.

Audio and Busboy productions. [MUSIC PLAYING].