America 250: History vs. Mythology | The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart

JON STEWART: It reminds us that aspiration. is the fuel of progress. It's the catalyst that drives it forward. And it's always been present. What happens to a country when it begins. to take its exceptionalism as birthright and not. as a project worthy of constant iteration. and edit and aspiration? ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Decadence? JON STEWART: Yes. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Degeneracy. JON STEWART: Yes. DAVID BLIGHT: Maybe they would become. a Roman Empire that may begin to collapse with gladiators.

I mean, I'm just saying, you know? JON STEWART: Well, that-- that would never happen here, sir. DAVID BLIGHT: No, never. JON STEWART: The idea that, on the lawn of the People's House, half-naked men would grapple seems absurd. [THEME MUSIC]. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to The Weekly Show Podcast. with Jon Stewart. It is Tuesday, June 16, year of our Knicks 2026. Oh, I don't know if you hear in my voice in any way. It's a little something called life,

a little something called hope. You know what? Here's-- I'm going to say something. before we get into the show. The Mets can suck all year. I don't give a fuck. Do what you want. Come in last. Have a payroll of $500 million. I really don't give a shit. It doesn't matter. You know what? You've been granted amnesty. You have-- you have a waiver. All my other teams, you have a waiver. The 53-year drought-- boy, did we have. I know you're sick of hearing about it, probably. But 7th Avenue, 10th Street, my wife, my son, Robert Smigel,

one of his sons, we stood there in the heat. staring at the side of a building projecting the game. It was just one of the most wonderful experiences. of my sporting life to just be in the city. and feel the hopes and fears and ups and downs. and adrenaline and negativity, followed by just.

an absolute explosion of joy. And I have to give one, along with, like, NYPD, NYFD, Sanitation Department, the people who projected. There was one dude--. two guys, actually--. MVPs of our-- of the-- the 7th Avenue watch party. They had an Igloo cooler. And in that cooler was the most delightful mix.

of snacks and drinks. I don't know where these angels came from. They had Uncrustables. They had those little Blue Bell cheese. fucking pucks that you unwrap, margaritas, beers, water. And just, every now and again, they would dip into it. And somebody would, like, poke you on the shoulder. and go, cheese? He would cheese you during the game. It was the most incredible.

And for some reason-- and he showed this early--. he had a Ziploc bag, a pretty good-size Ziploc bag, filled with 12 hard-boiled eggs. Now, I don't know if that was his Seder supply. that he's preparing for next year. or if he's got an egg salad thing. But he just-- with all these delightful snacks and. beverages, he had this thing. And I just thought, what a ridiculous, ridiculous thing. to actually consider to bring to this tailgate party in the.

middle of-- of New York City. But I'm telling you, 3/4 of the way through the fourth quarter, when the tension got the highest, he broke out this bag of eggs. And people in the crowd responded to them. like he was passing out free Knicks. T-shirts from a T-shirt gun. Egg me! Egg me! He would throw the egg. People would catch them on a scoop--. on the stoop and eat them.

It was the most brilliant. It was the coup de grace of his entire refreshment regime. that he had brought out there. And so, sir, sirs, I salute you, you anonymous heroes. You're beautiful-- it was just--. it was a beautiful moment. And that is how I will commemorate that day. But-- but it paled in comparison to, you know, obviously, martial arts fighting.

on the lawn of the White House to celebrate the 250th. So I thought, why not for-- for this show today, let's talk about the nation's 250th birthday and why this has. all become so controversial as to who owns our history, who doesn't own our history, what is our real history? And so who better to do that-- and you. know these are always my favorite episodes, historians. I just love historians. I-- they've done the work. And all we get to do is ask them the stories.

And they have them at their beck and call. And so we're going to get to them. These are two of the best, two of the best historians. out there. [THEME MUSIC]. Ladies and gentlemen, as we move into the--. the celebration of our nation's 250th year, we are honored to have with us today two just widely-revered. experts in the study of the history of this great country,

Mr. David Blight, Sterling Professor of History at Yale. University and Professor Annette Gordon-Reed, Carl M Loeb University Professor. at Harvard University. So it's-- this-- the entire conversation is a Yale, Harvard off. I want to ask you. David, I'll start with you. Perhaps nothing embodies sort of the absurdity of the moment. that we're having right now, in that, our 250th celebration,

we have two competing visions of it even. within our own government. We have the America 250 Celebration, which is a, I guess, a bipartisan group, nonprofit, established 10 years ago through Congress. to come up with events. And suddenly, we have the Freedom 250, which was formed by the Trump administration. for their vision. What does that say in your mind, Professor, about. the moment that we are in?

DAVID BLIGHT: Well, it's just one more measure of how. divided or polarized we are. One of those efforts is, I think, at least, an attempt. at real history, that is some complexity, some nuance, some ambiguity, the conflicts, as well as the triumphs. The other one is propaganda. The other one is using history in the service. of a political moment.

It's-- it's history in the service of the present. And it's a very partisan effort. It isn't just being done by the White House, though. Of course, the White House has had many, many enablers here, not least of which is the Heritage Foundation. and other think tanks. JON STEWART: Right. DAVID BLIGHT: In fact, the Heritage Foundation. has basically become the White House's history department. So those two visions, if you like, are two different ways to do history. They're very-- both are very old.

JON STEWART: Yes, propaganda, not a new form. DAVID BLIGHT: No, not a new thing. Not a new thing. JON STEWART: No. Annette, what-- you know, it brings up. the interesting point. What-- what is the importance of a nation's origin story? And why do ideologues or partisans. work so hard to control it? ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Well, I think. we look to origin stories in the same way we look. to our own origin stories. We-- we say, where were you born? Where did you grow up? You meet somebody, and you say, where are you from? If you say, I'm from Texas, that tells people-- they think, rightly or wrongly-- a lot about me.

If you're from Brooklyn, it tells you about you. So I think we take ourselves. And we look at the nation. And we sort of meld them together and say, how. did this country get started? Because it's going to tell us something. fundamental about who we are. And we've always done this. And your first question about the polarization--. I mean, history is inherently political. Because there's a battle about how people are supposed to. think about themselves. So one person will tell an origin story that they think is.

all uplift and not truthful. And I think that that's one of-- what. David is getting at there. Because it's something that makes. you feel good in the present. On the other hand, you could say, well, I want a truthful story. I really want to know what happened in the past. so that I can have a much more nuanced, as you said, story, a new-- a more realistic story. Now, what I face is that I write about slavery. And I write about Jefferson and--. and very difficult topics. There are people who don't want a truthful story. about all of that.

They want something that's a feel good. And sometimes it makes you feel good, and sometimes it doesn't. But you have to have both of those things. to have the kind of complexity that makes real history. JON STEWART: David, what is the damage of a truthful story? Why-- why is that so resisted? I mean, Annette brings up a good point. And there's something in there, also, about people. lie to themselves, as well. DAVID BLIGHT: Oh, sure. JON STEWART: It's not just about-- you know, so I imagine, for a historian, that's even a very difficult thing. to tease out, that you can read-- you know, the difference. between sort of journalism being the first draft.

of history and history and how you tease out, are these people lying to themselves? Are they lionizing themselves? Why would that be so resisted? DAVID BLIGHT: Well, because narratives. are always in conflict. And when-- when a powerful historical narrative, a series. of stories, exhibitions in museums, great historic sites get somewhat reinterpreted, it can disorient people. It can dislodge them from the pleasing, pleasurable,

familiar narrative. You know, most human beings-- let's face it, we're all a little bit part of this-- want to live. in a kind of chosen narrative. We'd all like our great-- our grandparents to be heroes. Our great grandparents, we can really make. heroes if we didn't know them. You know, we always-- everyone's always. looking for the perfect ancestor, you know, as long as they don't have. to know too much about them. And-- JON STEWART: [LAUGHING]. DAVID BLIGHT: Well, you know, I mean, we-- we-- that's-- and that's what your origin story is.

JON STEWART: I'm with you, man. Yeah, no--. DAVID BLIGHT: Origin stories are self-made. Who are we? Well--. JON STEWART: Right. DAVID BLIGHT: --let us tell you. And-- and also, I mean, origin stories are tricky. We can't live without them. Every culture does it. Every church does it. Every institution does it. Every country does, always has. But they're tricky. Marc Bloch, the great French historian killed. in the Holocaust, warned--. he had a little piece of an essay he entitled. "The Idol of Origins.".

And he said, well, beware. As soon as you find your origins, well, then that origin has an origin, and that origin has an origin. And watch out. You don't really fully know the origin unless you. look deeper, deeper, deeper. So the trouble with history is that it can--. it can dislodge us from the comforting story. we'd like to be living. And that's part of what's happened here in the last, let's say, two decades, really. It predates Trump-- where the American right has become so. concerned about some of the great changes.

in how we've interpreted, narrated American history. Everything from race to gender and many other issues. have-- has gotten them all worked up, because there was a-- a comfortable. narrative of this country. There always has been. And it got quite dislodged, not because, as a Trump executive. order said, we were trying to tell everybody nothing. but shame about America. That's nonsense.

That's not what we do. It's just because we've--. we've learned how to tell the complexities of history. And it turns out, most people want that. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Oh, they definitely do. JON STEWART: I would be sure of that. Annette, is that what you've seen, that, over time-- you. know, the fact that you're dealing. with tricky issues of slavery and race. and those kinds of issues. Is the dividing point here that the effort. is to create an origin story of the country that's. more singular and more reflective of maybe.

a Christian origin story or a nationalist origin story that's. more homogeneous and that, because you're dealing. in the complexities of race, or as David said, gender, things that don't fit as easily, that's where the pushback comes? And have you felt that pushback grow? ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Oh, yes, definitely. The last-- from the revolution in the historiography. of slavery, in particular, in the '40s and the '50s and ever.

since then, that goes along with the Civil Rights movement. I mean, history-- we ask different questions. of the past, depending upon what's going on. And once we started changing laws and getting. rid of segregation, all those kinds of things. and making-- transforming America, you go back. And people start looking at history in a different way, asking different questions. And I think, as David is suggesting, this is a reaction to all of that. There are people who want to put the genie back. in the bottle or want to rewind the tape and say, no,

let's go back to a more comforting narrative, mainly because perhaps they want to go back to a more. comforting country, you know, a country that a sort of 1950s, you know, 1940s country and everybody idolizes. But that's a time when, you know, people went to separate bathrooms. People-- you know, women couldn't get credit cards. I mean, all these things--. that-- there's a lot that goes along. with this nostalgic vision of history. And that is-- JON STEWART: Right. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: --a nostalgic vision. of the present. And so that's what's really frightening about it.

It's not just about--. a complaint about history. It's a complaint about where we are now, the kind of country we have become. in the past 50 or 60 years. JON STEWART: Is the idea, Annette, that-- that, if they feel like they can control. the narrative of the past, they can control the future. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Exactly. I mean, the thing is this is who we are and this--. the push for originalism, the idea we have to go back, essentially, to-- it's always the 1789 Constitution, 1787, 1789 Constitution.

It's not the post-Civil War that gives us the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendment. Let's go back to the original. JON STEWART: That's interesting. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: And that is back in a time when, you know, Black--. there was a strict racial hierarchy, a gender hierarchy. And we can't do anything past what those people. thought at the time. And that's-- you know, that's-- that's a complaint about. history, but it's also a complaint about the new society. that America has tried to make in the late 20th century. and the early 21st century. DAVID BLIGHT: Jon, we live in the country that is essentially.

held together by the 14th Amendment, Section 1 of the 14th, birthright citizenship, due process and equality before law. JON STEWART: Right. DAVID BLIGHT: That's right before the Supreme Court. as we speak. We were reinvented by the 14th Amendment. And we still live under it if we-- if we can hold it. You know, what's at stake here is more than just history. It's the social order. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Yeah. DAVID BLIGHT: I mean, it's this idea that, if-- if you let these-- these crazy,

left-wing historians and universities alter the national. story that fifth graders learn, eighth graders, 10th graders, and college students, the social. order could fall apart. Family values could fall apart. And-- and look, it's one of the reasons the right. is so exercised about gender. Because that is a relatively new. challenge to the-- the nature of history, if you like. But it's ultimately here a question of,

who controls the social and cultural order? History is always at the center of that. It's always the first problem. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Yeah, absolutely. In the 14th Amendment is basically. animated by the Declaration of Independence--. DAVID BLIGHT: Yup. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: --that gives us a creed that says, all men are created equal. And the progress of America since that moment. has been try to realize that. And that's why you have this attack. now, even in some ways, on the Declaration as a. creed, saying--. as a sort of creed-- creed for America-- and saying,

no, America is not just a country about a creed. It's a country about a race. It's about a religion. It's about something that doesn't. have that inclusive, encompassing thing. So the Declaration in the 14th Amendment talking about. equality has been a target for people who want. a different vision of what the country is about, a-- a white nation. [THEME MUSIC]. JON STEWART: Look, the algorithm--.

the algorithm is killing us. The algorithm, the-- the-- the way. that it incentivizes the hostility. and-- and weaponizes ideology and all these. It's just-- it-- it's not right. But the-- the antidote-- the antidote is information. And that's where Ground News comes in. Ground News, it's this website and app. It's designed to give readers a better way, an easier. way to navigate the news. It pulls together every article about the same news story. from all outlets all over the world.

and puts them in one place and not-- not incentivize. for, like, the worst, most hostile, most partisan take. It tells you where it's coming from. You-- you can see, starkly in black and white, how these different organizations. and algorithms are manipulating the information that we get. They show you how reliable the source is and who's funding it. Who's funding it? Follow the money.

Know who's behind the headline. Oh, who is this Rupert Murdoch fella? He seems delightful. Hmm, he seems to have a somewhat. pointed view of the world. I'm telling you, man, the Nobel Peace Center's even. mentioned that Ground News is an excellent way. to stay informed--. Nobel Peace Center. That's, I think, the one that Trump started. I think it's-- it 3D prints Prince Nobel Peace prizes. and just hands them out. The platform is independently operated, supported.

by its subscribers, so they stay independent, and they stay mission driven. And they don't get sucked into this slop. If you want to see the full picture, go to Ground News. They can help you through the noise. Get to the heart of the news. Go to groundnews.com/stewart. Subscribe for 40% off the unlimited access. vantage subscription. Discount available only for a limited time. And this brings the price down to, like, $5 a month. That's groundnews.com/stewart.

Or scan the QR code on the screen. [THEME MUSIC]. I'm fascinated by the-- the idea that, by telling the stories of diverse populations, that is--. why do you think they view that as. degrading to our national history and not. something that is more remarkable. about our national history, in terms of-- of where we've come? I mean, you-- you've studied Douglass, maybe. the best scholar on Douglass.

You know, reanimate him for a moment. Would he be astonished by the progress made or disappointed. that we're still litigating the very same structural issues. that he litigated? DAVID BLIGHT: Both. JON STEWART: [LAUGHING]. DAVID BLIGHT: No, he would-- both. JON STEWART: Damn you and your nuance! DAVID BLIGHT: Oh, I know these--. JON STEWART: Professor. DAVID BLIGHT: These historians are always saying, on the one. hand, on the other hand. JON STEWART: Yes, yes. DAVID BLIGHT: But truly, Douglass would be astonished. at some of this progress. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Oh, yeah. DAVID BLIGHT: But he'd be disgusted.

JON STEWART: Uh-huh. DAVID BLIGHT: He'd be-- oh, Lord, he'd. be disgusted at this attempt to erase all of that progress that. has been made. The best way to understand that is Douglass gave a very. important speech in 1869, right at the point. of the passage of the 15th Amendment, the Voting Rights Amendment. He called it the composite nation. It's one of the most beautiful expressions. you would ever read. And note the date again. This is 1869.

JON STEWART: Right. DAVID BLIGHT: It reads like a multiculturalism manifesto, you know, from a school system in the-- in the 1990s. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Whoa. DAVID BLIGHT: Yeah. No, yeah--. JON STEWART: Douglass-- Douglass was woke. I think most people would agree. Douglass was woke. DAVID BLIGHT: The dude-- the dude was in the pluralism. JON STEWART: Yes. DAVID BLIGHT: And-- and the speech. expresses this beautiful, you know, crazy quilt of America. And in the middle of it, he stops. He takes up the great present issue of that moment. And he makes the case for Chinese immigration.

Chinese immigration was becoming a huge issue, especially from the West. And there's Douglass saying, get ready, America, they're coming. And they got a 3,000-year-old civilization with stuff. we never thought about before. Yes, they have alien language. Yes, they have alien religion. But man, these are amazing people. Get ready for them. JON STEWART: But even that, though--. think about that, though, that moment in history. In 1869, Douglass says that. DAVID BLIGHT: Yeah. JON STEWART: And what are the two things that. occur almost right after that? DAVID BLIGHT: Right. JON STEWART: There is the birthright citizenship case.

about a Chinese immigrant. DAVID BLIGHT: Exactly. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Yeah. JON STEWART: But then the second thing. is the South reinstates--. DAVID BLIGHT: Takes back the country. JON STEWART: Takes back--. right. Reanimates the very thing that created. the progress that-- that Douglass is talking about. DAVID BLIGHT: It's the single most hopeful. moment of Douglass' life. JON STEWART: Yes. DAVID BLIGHT: And he never--. Jon, he never gave that speech that I. could find after about 1871. It was falling apart. JON STEWART: Right. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: I-- I was doing a research for a book.

and found my great, great grandfather's name on a voter. list in Texas in 1867. JON STEWART: Oh, goodness. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: And it was amazing. And then I thought--. then I got sad. Because I realized what's going to happen in a couple of years. JON STEWART: Yeah, yeah. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Texas is going to--. I mean, all this stuff is going to be rolled back. JON STEWART: Right. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: And he's going to be. put back into a state near--. not chattel but near--. near chattel, almost as bad as slavery. during that time period before-- stripped. of rights and so forth. JON STEWART: And is the idea that the right.

would like that moment erased from the record. or de-emphasized? What is-- what is the purpose of it? And Annette, you faced this. I mean, again, when we talk about Douglass with David. Blight, but also Sally Hemings and Jefferson. with Annette Gordon-Reed--. I mean, your scholarship on that, unparalleled. So is that an analogous historical. figure, in terms-- do they want that relationship erased? ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Well, you know, at-- when I was working on this subject,

it-- it occurred to me that--. I think a lot of it, when I listen to people, it has to do with this question of a-- a white nation. If somehow a person who is a symbol of the country. had seven children with a woman who was not--. what was not purely white, then what. did that say about the country as a white nation? I mean, an actual, literal founding father here. of, not just white people, but of people who were Black. and who-- who has descendants who still.

identify themselves as Black. So a lot of it is just-- it's the-- it's. a vision of themselves and a vision of what they want. the present to be to sort of situate the past to sort of of, you know, put us on the path to getting to a place. that is comfortable to them. And that is one where whites are in ascendancy, and people of color are-- are-- you know, are lower down. or people who are discriminated against. JON STEWART: I want to ask you about the process of that.

Because, you know, David, you brought this up earlier, that idea of woke and--. and diversity being a buzzword about this has--. we have to take woke out. You know, I think Trump did the executive order. restoring truth and sanity to American history. And it was all about removing any idea of woke, the idea being that the left or the elites. are so focused on issues of race or gender. or those kinds of things. But those-- the people that were. under those discrimination policies,

they didn't create those distinctions. They had to live under them. The idea of obsession with race or gender. doesn't come from those who suffered under it. It was the ruling class that defined those groups. DAVID BLIGHT: Well, that's true, no question. Black folk didn't write the pro-slavery laws. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: No, no. DAVID BLIGHT: Black folk didn't write--. JON STEWART: Or define themselves. as something different. DAVID BLIGHT: Right. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: No. DAVID BLIGHT: They weren't-- they weren't part. of the self-definition of being chattel by any means,

of course. Now, whether the right wants total erasure--. there are many different parts of the right, as you well. know, Jon. And-- and some of them would say, oh, they just want to talk about emphasis. You know, they don't want to lose Jefferson. in the story of Sally Hemings. And that could tell us hours on that. They don't want to lose Abraham Lincoln. in the stories of the complexities of how. emancipation actually happened. They don't want to lose George Washington in the story of how.

the American Revolution was won and how bloody it was. and how difficult and contingent it was. and how they almost didn't win and so on and so on and so on. There are parts of the right who. really are white nationalists. And I've learned this, I guess, I'd say the hard way. I recently challenged Kevin Roberts, the president--. JON STEWART: Kevin Roberts, president. of Heritage Foundation. DAVID BLIGHT: Yeah, yeah. I challenged him to have a debate.

And we ended up doing an hour and 10 minute podcast. JON STEWART: Really? DAVID BLIGHT: Oh, yeah. Yeah. And look, we set two rules. We were going to be civil. [SCOFFS] JON STEWART: [LAUGHING]. DAVID BLIGHT: And--. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: [LAUGHING]. DAVID BLIGHT: Sorry. No, we really tried. We did all right on that one, mostly. JON STEWART: All right. DAVID BLIGHT: And we were going to stay in our lane, because Kevin is a historian. He has a PhD in history from UT Austin. And his dissertation was on slavery in Louisiana. And it's not bad 25 years ago. JON STEWART: And he's also one of the architects. of the New Right, which is that Project 2025.

DAVID BLIGHT: Absolutely. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. JON STEWART: And what they want in the future. and has been on record as saying he. wants the future to be Trumpism. DAVID BLIGHT: Absolutely. And-- and some of these executive orders. come right out of Project 2025, verbatim language. JON STEWART: Right. DAVID BLIGHT: They were written over at Heritage Foundation. But Kevin and I stayed in our lane as historians. We tried to be civil. And by and large, it didn't work. JON STEWART: Really? DAVID BLIGHT: Well, we did remain civil.

I was his host. I couldn't do-- you know. JON STEWART: Wow. I-- I've been in that position. DAVID BLIGHT: I bet you have. JON STEWART: [LAUGHING]. Sometimes it works out better than other times. But, OK, yeah. DAVID BLIGHT: Yeah, you've interviewed a few people. you'd like to kick, I'm sure. JON STEWART: That's probably correct. DAVID BLIGHT: Is that safe to say? Yeah. JON STEWART: What was-- what did you think-- do you think. he's being disingenuous then? What was his-- especially if he's written, you know, a dissertation on slavery in Louisiana. I mean, surely he understands the complexity of it. Is he now being disingenuous for a purely political project?

DAVID BLIGHT: Sometimes, he is. I'm totally convinced of that. He can read off a, you know, 12 talking points for the Trump. White House in two minutes. JON STEWART: Right. DAVID BLIGHT: He's very good at that. But-- but often, the disingenuous--. the disingenuity, if that's the right word, comes when they start cherry picking, when they start. saying, well, there was this one exhibit. at the African-American History Museum that said this that they.

should not have said. Or there's that art museum over there. that suggested that sculpture has. something to do with scientific racism, which sometimes it does. But they will pick out a single cherry-picked example. somewhere and say, you see? The whole damn institution has gone to hell with a bunch. of liberals and radicals. JON STEWART: They confuse anecdote. with data and those things. DAVID BLIGHT: Absolutely. JON STEWART: Annette, in your experience-- because the Sally. Hemings thing was a very different. situation, in that there was a real denial.

of the reality of it. Their-- their position there wasn't cherry picking emphasis. It was, no, that's not true. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Yeah. JON STEWART: None of those folks. descended from Jefferson and Hemings. It's just not. You're lying. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, yeah, I mean, it was denial for the reasons I. was suggesting before, that-- JON STEWART: Right. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: --there was an image of Jefferson. as almost the personification of America. In some ways, that's not a crazy thing. That's one of the reasons he's an interesting figure for me, because you can write about so much in American history.

through his life about slavery, race, politics, foreign policy, all of those things. And so he was a hero to people in a particular way. And they had sort of a personal identification with him. And they didn't want to leave that behind. But I do want to say something about the-- the museum. JON STEWART: Yeah. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: One of the interesting points. that's happened here is that, during. the president's first term--. I believe it was in the first term he visited the museum.

And he was very complimentary of it. I mean, he thought it-- you know, it was a-- it was an uplifting story. And then it changed after--. I don't know-- is the Heritage Foundation or the new--. well, the project that they put in place. had to sort of alter the way they thought. about these kinds of things. And all of a sudden, it becomes this cherry picking. that you're talking about. What could be more inspirational than that museum? It's just odd to think that people. didn't see that as a story of the bad and the good, talking about--.

it's sort of a progressive understanding of things. are getting better and better as you go up the floors. And so it's exactly something that. was made to, in lots of ways, to honor America, not to be critical of it. DAVID BLIGHT: Oh, yeah. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Not at all. DAVID BLIGHT: Oh, yeah. There's a reason it was the hottest ticket in Washington. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Absolutely. JON STEWART: Right. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Because people do really want to know. JON STEWART: Yeah. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: My experience. is people really want to know the truth and can handle it. DAVID BLIGHT: And that was right at the beginning. of his first term. I think that was, like, February of 17 or something.

But they hadn't really been fighting. the culture wars to win yet--. I mean, to really win. Now they are. Now they are. JON STEWART: Why would you think. that a more nuanced version of the history of this country. is something to win or that that's part of a culture war--. is the idea that, if we acknowledge. the complexity of it, we owe a debt to those who suffered. Is it-- is it about if--.

if you do acknowledge that there was explicit racist. or exclusionary policy that built so much of the equity. of this country, if you acknowledge that, are you then saying, and now there is. a debt to that acknowledgment? ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Absolutely. The thing is to say that Black people-- all though it's just--. it's usually Black and white. It's much more complicated now and lots of ways. with other minority groups.

The idea is nothing happened to you. The disparities that we see in health care and education. and wealth, all of those things, it's. because you have not pulled yourself up by your bootstraps. Nothing has happened to you. And if you tell a story, if you tell young people, wait a minute, you know, when Annette Gordon was. a little girl at six, when she went to the doctor, she had to go to a separate waiting room that was much. smaller and didn't have, you know, the accouterments on the other side or the white one--. or if you had to sit in the balcony.

If you talked about all those things. and that they happened to, you know, people-- millions of people over the years, then you do owe them a debt. You do feel sympathy for them. And the lack-- this notion that you shouldn't have empathy. for people or sympathy for people. is a big part of their-- their thinking, because they really. don't like the idea of social programs of any kind. of responsibility that people have to try to alleviate. those circumstances. So it's-- it's a way of saying, you know,

we don't-- you know, we don't have any responsibility. The society has no responsibility. for the legal impediments that were put upon people. for many, many decades. [THEME MUSIC]. JON STEWART: You guys are familiar with the internet. You probably think, oh, look at me looking. shit up, looking things up. I like to look things up. I like information. I like surfing the web. But I don't know if you realize this. Somebody-- somebody out there is checking you out. It's gotten to the point you don't even think about it. until, all of a sudden, you have that moment of, uh,

is this tracking everything that and everywhere. that I am going and doing? And it's just a wonderful moment of paranoia. that we all feel. And then we think to ourselves, well, oh, I'm just helpless. I'm helpless, because I want to buy Crocs. I would certainly not want that information to be out there. But you're not helpless. Here's why you're not helpless. Our sponsor-- our sponsor, Incogni, is--.

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to claim your 60% off. And get your personal data off the market--. incogni.com/stewart. [THEME MUSIC]. What's so interesting about that to me. is-- so I think about it. And maybe this is far afield. But I think about globalization and--. and what it has done to the sort. of-- the center of the country and the manufacturing base. And, you know, working-class whites, I would say, are the primary victims of that kind of job loss, right?

DAVID BLIGHT: Mm-hmm. JON STEWART: It's very common in this country. to say the policies that were instituted destroyed that--. the economic prospects for those folks. in that part of the country. It led them to depths of despair. It brought out a lot of different vices. and those kinds of things. And we're going to take policy measures to repair that damage. We're going to levy tariffs.

We're going to do various things to try and alleviate. the suffering that occurred from the policies that. were put in place. Isn't that the exact story of racially-exclusionary policies? Why is that in any way a controversial issue? DAVID BLIGHT: Well, OK, good question. I mean, I grew up--. JON STEWART: [LAUGHING]. I have got-- I'm taking this class.

I'm doing this right! DAVID BLIGHT: All right, man. Well, you get an A already. JON STEWART: All right. Done. DAVID BLIGHT: But, you know, I grew up in an auto. town, Flint, Michigan. I grew up in an auto-maker family. I-- that white, working class Midwest, that's where I'm from. So there's no question. Democrats lost that white, working class. And Republicans gained major portions of it. because of globalization, because of the loss of jobs, because of sending jobs abroad and on and on and on, no question. But what's also happened in that process is they have.

taught that white working class-- and a whole. lot of other people--. to distrust institutions, like universities, distrust institutions, like great museums, distrust this whole apparatus that Annette and I are just. two small parts of the practice of history, the practice of academic-- the creation of academic knowledge. And we got surprised by that. And this is where the left has to take at least a look. in the mirror and realize that, for years, we.

were being distrusted and didn't really even know it. And we forgot that only about 47% of Americans. ever even go to college, any kind of college. And the slight majority of this country. never sets foot on a college campus, even for a football game, because they can't afford it. So, you know, we lost touch in some ways. We made our creation of knowledge obscure in many ways.

Although, many of us, for years and years-- and Annette. at the-- you know, was the spearhead of this because. of the Sally Hemings case. And that took time to convince Monticello and the country. of-- of its truth. JON STEWART: But there's a resentment there. DAVID BLIGHT: Yeah. JON STEWART: Because of its truth. There's a resentment--. DAVID BLIGHT: Well, that's true, too. JON STEWART: --towards Annette or towards you. for even bringing up that truth. DAVID BLIGHT: Telling us the painful stories. JON STEWART: That's right. DAVID BLIGHT: Don't tell us those painful stories. Make us feel good again.

JON STEWART: It's a battle over who the real victims are. And now the-- the white working class are saying, no, no, no, no, no, it's not the woke that are the victim. It's us. We're actually the victims. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Well, there's-- there's the racial. story that's involved in this, as well. I mean, the white working class, you know, beloved of news organizations and so forth, the diner stories and so forth. JON STEWART: Sure. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: They're seen as representing. real Americans in some ways. And this is a way of saying that Black people are.

kind of not real Americans. JON STEWART: Explicitly so-- and as. even the heritage Americans. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And the truth is, most African-American people are. descended from people who came here in the 1700s, in the early 1700s. Most, you know-- so we would certainly. be people who have a history here for very, very-- you know, for centuries. And yet, we're not real Americans. So when you think about-- when people are told. that the government-- and that's. the other thing that they-- it's not. only mistrusting universities.

The-- the government is the problem. So we're an industrialized country. that doesn't have a social welfare system anywhere. like that it approaches any place else in-- in Europe. in our sort of people who have comparable types of societies. And so-- and that is-- social scientists suggest. is because of the racial question. here-- is that people don't want those. people, those people's children or those people. to have-- you know, to-- to be helped in any way.

And so it's-- it's very much a sort of a Heritage, Christian nationalist kind of understanding of-- of who. belongs in this country. JON STEWART: But at the core of it, is it resource guarding? Because I think you see, in some respects--. I mean, I'd say that, only because I have dogs. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: I was going to say, because you have a dog. JON STEWART: I have a dog. So I'm always thinking, like, cognitively--. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: I do, too. JON STEWART: --oh, they resource guard. And in some ways, is that the resentment of-- you. know, you hear that a lot. If we weren't spending money on these immigrants and the health.

care, my life wouldn't be hard. But we're certainly not the only country. with a complicated history. DAVID BLIGHT: Oh, God, no. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: No, not at all, not at all. DAVID BLIGHT: Talk to the Russians and the Germans and--. [LAUGHING]. JON STEWART: Right. DAVID BLIGHT: Well, but-- but, you know, we do have something. a little peculiar on them. And that is, you know, talk to-- talk to common Russians. about progress. They might ask you what the hell that is, you know. JON STEWART: Right.

DAVID BLIGHT: Talk to whatever generation. of Germans about progress. But Americans have this--. I don't know if it's DNA in the water, in the air, wherever it all comes from. There's this-- it's an American mythology. It's deep in American mythology. JON STEWART: Our exceptionalism. DAVID BLIGHT: Yeah. This place has to be about progress. And these messy, complicated, conflicted, difficult. histories are--. are disrupting that progress, are showing us. that, oh, my God.

Well, look, our job has been, for years-- and we--. and actually, we're paying the price. for some of our victories. I mean, I think so. And I wonder if Annette doesn't--. JON STEWART: You're talking about victory progress, in terms of civil rights and those kinds of things. It's breeding resentment in other groups. DAVID BLIGHT: Yes. But even writing the new histories--. I mean, both of us here have came of age. with the transformations of-- of the subject. of American history. Race was the big subject for both of us. But many others-- you know, the rewriting of American--.

the history of American foreign policy, the rewriting. of the American West because of the explosion of scholarship. on Native American history. And sometimes, you know, maybe we did go overboard. Maybe we did stop studying the presidency. JON STEWART: When you say overboard, do you mean in terms of painting it. as a story of pure negative impulse. or colonizer versus victim, in that way?

ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Yeah, well, to some extent that. And if-- if I hear one more student in a seminar. use the term settler colonialism for just everything. they want, I will stop them. Because there are other-- other ways into American history. JON STEWART: Right. DAVID BLIGHT: I mean, it became-- well, no. But-- but I think it's more than--. than just, you know, shame or whatever. No, it's not-- I'm talking about just the explosion. of the new histories. I mean, there's so many new histories. We are so pluralistic.

JON STEWART: Annette, do you see that, as well? Do you-- do you see a kind of excess in-- in the scholarship? Because it-- it feels like it's never excess if it's just--. if people are just exploring those histories, as long as there are other options to be studied. You know, if a college only offered you a narrow slice. of very specific colonialist victim histories-- but it--. it sounds like we're expanding the palette.

ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Yeah, I would-- you know, I would--. DAVID BLIGHT: Yeah. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: --you know, depart from David. a little bit on this. Because I think it's basically comes down. to the cherry picking that we're talking about before, that people come, and they look-- go to a university. And they find some class that they think is crazy and say, this is what people are being taught. JON STEWART: Right. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: And in fact, you could. take Shakespeare classes--. DAVID BLIGHT: Judged by its title, usually. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Yeah, by title. And people would say, you can't take Shakespeare anymore. There are no classics. And, you know, I went to Dartmouth.

And you could-- and people would. make these complaints about, you know, what's not there on the curriculum. But there-- are all the traditional things were there. It's just that they weren't focusing in on that. So I think-- I think it's more people being upset because they. don't want other people--. they don't want those kinds of things. available at all, even though what they want is still there. JON STEWART: That's the point. They don't want it available at all. It's a food court. And just because you've introduced a Panda Express.

and empanadas, it doesn't mean you. can't still go to McDonald's. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Exactly. JON STEWART: It's all still there. DAVID BLIGHT: Right. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Uh-huh. But it's-- the expansion of it is frightening. JON STEWART: Yes. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: I mean, when. people come to something that you-- you're not used to this. You're used to the very things that you always went to. And now you have all these alternatives. And, you know Starbucks-- you know, I want my coffee. But I'm resentful that other people. are getting the no-whip frappuccino, whatever. JON STEWART: [LAUGHING]. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: But you can have. those things if you want them.

JON STEWART: You can tell it's around lunchtime for all of us. DAVID BLIGHT: Right, right, right. JON STEWART: We're all a little hungry. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Exactly. JON STEWART: And all the analogies now are going to be--. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Of food. JON STEWART: --food related. But it's-- it's all taken as an attack. What are the ways-- you know, so let's think about--. you know, there are countries, obviously, with even more complicated--. South Africa is a great example. Now there's this real renaissance and nostalgia. for apartheid South Africa, Rhodesia and those kinds. of areas. And you see it on social media and all these other things.

Why is there a nostalgia for that? And-- and did South Africa's truth. and reconciliation commissions help bridge a gap to ease that? What-- what's going on in these other complicated histories? DAVID BLIGHT: Well, there have been many, many different attempts at truth and reconciliation, truth commissions of various kinds. In fact, we did a conference comparing all. those at Yale some years ago. There are many different efforts. And they're very difficult to do. And they're all rooted in their own cultures.

and their own histories. But-- but thank God that the world has at least attempted. to do this in many different-- from India. to Germany to South America, South Africa, you name it. Nostalgia for past, it's a human urge. You know, nostalgia for the British Empire when, you know--. for some, not just Brits. There-- there are Americans who are anglophiles and may yearn. for, I don't know, some--. some time in the history of the British Empire.

They better not look at some of those wars. the British fought in Africa or India. JON STEWART: Sure. DAVID BLIGHT: That's going to get ugly. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Oh, my God, the number. of people who got killed--. JON STEWART: Or amongst themselves. DAVID BLIGHT: Or amongst themselves. JON STEWART: I think, sometimes, there's. this feeling that, if it was just homogeneous, there wouldn't be issues. DAVID BLIGHT: Yeah. Yeah. JON STEWART: But human beings will always find a way. to divide ourselves, you know? DAVID BLIGHT: Oh, yeah. JON STEWART: And if you just-- you can go. back to it-- well, if it was just this anglicized version. of Christian nationalism. And you're like, right. But whose version of it? And suddenly, you're back in the Protestant Catholic wars. You're back into the 100 Years wars.

You know, you're back into a whole other era. of violence and division, just based. on different characteristics. DAVID BLIGHT: Sure. Sure. I once-- I was teaching in Germany 30-some years ago. And I showed Ken Burns' film series on the Civil War. all dubbed into German, by the way. It was weird. But--. JON STEWART: [LAUGHING]. DAVID BLIGHT: Anyway, a German student came up to me. and said, why is it you Americans think that anything.

that happened to you was the greatest, the biggest, the bloodiest? JON STEWART: Right. DAVID BLIGHT: And he said, have Americans ever heard. of the Thirty Years' War? And I said, no, probably not. JON STEWART: [LAUGHING]. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: [LAUGHING]. DAVID BLIGHT: I'm sorry, but they probably haven't. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: It's a big country. DAVID BLIGHT: You know, we don't do comparison that often. But-- or we should do more of it. But, you know, the burden is still on us. It's still on us historians to make what we do clear, to translate what we do. And-- and I think-- well, you've got two historians here.

have been attempting to do this for years and years and years--. to reach out to real people who read books, you know, the public, to write in ways that are, not only accessible, but good narrative. based on deep research, but good narrative. And historians lost touch with some of that over the years, the revolution in social history, the revolution in this kind of method, that kind of theory. But there's a real movement now. I think it's an interesting-- in fact,

this conference I'm running here right. now is all about this-- to--. to take history to the public, take good history. to the public, whether it's in museum exhibitions, in our books, in lectures. Tell the big, complicated stories. [THEME MUSIC]. JON STEWART: I like to eat things in bowls, bowls, bowls, all types of bowls. You ever see that Leslie Jones rap from SNL?

Bowls, bowls. It's about that. I think it was the song, Aidy--. Aidy Bryant, "I'm a Back Home Ball" or something like that. I hope this is not a digression. But I think bowls are probably the best. receptacle by which man has created to eat things out of. If it's good enough for my dog, it's good enough for me. And my favorite thing to put in bowls--. I'm not telling you anything you. don't already know-- cereal.

I love a nice cereal, morning, lunch, dinner. If I'm having a particularly spectacular night of insomnia, I'll pop a nice bowl of cereal 3:00 in the morning. And I'm telling you something. I used to eat it, all the sugary stuff. and always felt like-- you know, I felt like Superman for, like, seven minutes. And then I'd just crash. And my point is that Magic Spoon makes healthy cereal. You could still eat it out of a bowl,

but you won't get that crazy up and down crap. 13 grams of protein, no sugar, 0, 5 grams. of net carbs per serving. That's perfect. It come in great flavors, fruity frosted cocoa, cinnamon crunch. Come on. What's better than a bowl? What's better than cereal? What's better than Magic Spoon? Nothing! Look For Magic Spoon on Amazon or at your nearest. grocery store.

And there are plant-based versions of the cereal, too. Even vegans get to feel like they had a childhood. You'll find vegan options at Whole Foods. Or get $5 off your next order at magicspoon.com/tws. That's magicspoon.com/tws for $5 off. [THEME MUSIC]. Juneteenth is coming, June 19. And people may not know. But you-- you played a crucial role in--. I'm embarrassed to even say-- when I was younger,

going to school, I had no idea of that--. the significance of that day. We are taught the Emancipation Proclamation. And that's kind of the end of it. There's an Emancipation Proclamation. And after that, we were good. And then there was a little kerfuffle in maybe the '60s. DAVID BLIGHT: Somebody here wrote a book on that. JON STEWART: That's what I'm saying. So, you know, Annette, that's coming up. What was your process like in bringing that story more. to the public forefront and getting the acknowledgment.

of it from a government that's resistant to that kind. of acknowledgment? ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Well, it was a pandemic book. JON STEWART: [LAUGHING]. DAVID BLIGHT: [LAUGHING]. JON STEWART: Oh, that's the idea. If you don't leave the house--. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: If you don't leave the house--. DAVID BLIGHT: You get a lot of writing done. JON STEWART: Fair enough. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: I was there. in Manhattan and only going out to Central Park for--. for breaks and so forth. But, you know, I thought that I could. tell the story of Texas and this day. through my family's story.

So-- and that's-- I think that is, to David's point about making things accessible, people like stories about other people, you know? And that was the hook to try to do it. I hadn't thought that the government--. I hadn't thought that there would be a national holiday. There was another woman who's responsible, Opal Lee-- who's more responsible for all of that. But the timing was good. And, you know, I worked on it and got it out. And it was-- it was a way to try to get people to think.

about, not just the Emancipation Proclamation, but also to think about how African-Americans in Texas. and other places, in some ways, liberated themselves by leaving. the plantations and were responsible for-- in some ways, for their own-- for their own freedom. I thought it would be--. this was sort of a celebration of human rights. that-- that people in the country could just say, this is just a milestone. It's not the end of everything. It didn't end slavery. It didn't end the whole-- the thing.

The-- slavery ends with, yeah, the fight. But it was-- it's a marker for people to latch on to. JON STEWART: Can I ask what the response is? Because I'm curious sometimes. The standard historian framing-- and you. brought up Ken Burns-- is you're. studying this other period. And you're looking for all the source material. And you're sorting out who might have been lionizing. themselves, self-aggrandizement, who is-- how are they manipulating. the details of the events, versus your story.

about-- through the lens of your family. in Texas, where it's a much more personal story. and, I would imagine, harder to refute through the lens. of intentional attacks. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Yeah. Well, I think it's difficult. Because I. don't write about myself. It's much easier to write about other people. and other people's families. Because, you know, it's just-- you're-- you're too. much into it. But by the same token, these are my impressions of my past.

And so people can't-- and this is what I think. People can't come and say, that's not how you felt know. JON STEWART: [LAUGHING] Right. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Watching Billy Jack, that's not how you-- JON STEWART: [LAUGHING]. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: That's not how you felt. when you saw those movies. JON STEWART: By the way, one of my-- one of my favorites. I think that informed-- you know a lot about people. by which side of the town they were empathizing in Billy--. if you know people that-- that watch Billy Jack and they--. and you know which side they're empathizing on, that tells you a lot about where their politics are. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Oh, those movies--.

I try to explain that to my kids--. JON STEWART: They're the best. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: In my town, my little East Texas, you know, very, very conservative town, all of these people were just whipping, you know, in favor of Billy Jack and his compatriots. And I'm thinking, wait a minute. What-- are you the same folks? Do you understand? JON STEWART: Do you understand what this is about? ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Do you understand what this is about? I'm coming at this very differently. DAVID BLIGHT: I was a high school teacher. when Billy Jack came out. Man, that was hot, you know? I don't know how many times I saw that with students. JON STEWART: Yeah. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: But you tell those--. those kinds of stories.

And people relate to them. And that-- and then you give them history. And then it becomes a part of--. the whole thing taken together, you hope. that they learned something. It's a different way of doing it. But--. JON STEWART: I want to ask you what's. somewhat confusing about--. for me about this 250th celebration--. is one of the things that, you know, we were always taught about was this idea of American. exceptionalism and that American exceptionalism. was about the creed. It really was about the Declaration of Independence.

and all men are created equal. And-- and that is what separated. And to go back to blood and soil. feels like an admission of defeat. It feels like we're then saying, actually, we're not exceptional. We're not a shining city on a hill. We're just like every other nationalist movement in. the history of-- of the world. So why wouldn't the right embrace what truly.

is exceptional about the country, this creed so difficult to achieve but certainly. worth the pursuit? Annette, what do you think of that? ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Well, a lot goes along with that. if you believe in the creed. You believe-- I mean, and there have always. been a segment of Americans when, you know, those words were written and when Jefferson said. them-- and we could-- we don't have time. to go into him on all of this. But there-- there were always people. who disputed that notion.

And the Civil War in the South explicitly rejected it in, you. know, the cornerstone speech. We don't believe those things. Jefferson was wrong, essentially, what they say. JON STEWART: Tell me what the cornerstone speech is. Because I-- I'm not familiar with the cornerstone speech. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: The vice president of the Confederacy. wrote a speech basically saying that the cornerstone. of the new Southern society they were making. was the idea that the African race was not created. equal to-- to white race. And he calls out Jefferson and says, basically, they were wrong.

They believed, you know, essentially necessary evil. But they believed that-- that slavery was a wrong thing. And we don't believe that. We believe that that is the natural state. of African-Americans to be in slavery. JON STEWART: And yet, somehow, somehow, in the early 1900s, it. became about states' rights. Does anybody understand that? DAVID BLIGHT: Uh, yeah. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Well, because, at some. point when racism becomes--. they understand is a dirty word in some way, you have to say, no, it's not. And they know they were wrong, you know?

When people know they're wrong, they. try to come up with some kind of explanation. for what it is they're doing. And it is the tariff. You know, you kill 600,000 people about the tariff. It's like, uh, no, I don't think so. JON STEWART: No. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: So it-- the notion changes. JON STEWART: Especially when the cornerstone speech. exists, when it's on record. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Yeah. DAVID BLIGHT: On record. And it was just the beginning. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Exactly what it was. DAVID BLIGHT: Every secession resolution told the world. of the states that seceded, told the world. they were seceding to protect a racial system, a labor system.

And, by the way, that was a slave labor system. But, Jon, back to your creed question, I think it's crucial here. It's absolutely crucial. The creeds were dangerous. The creeds are dangerous. That Declaration of-- those four first principles, life, liberty, pursuit of happiness and the right. of-- doctrine of consent and the right of revolution, they're dangerous. And nobody appropriated them quite as vigorously, forcefully, hopefully, as did Black.

Americans, eventually, and the whole abolition movement. Annette and I were just doing a Teacher. Institute together in Philadelphia. about the Constitution. And-- and she heard me on this. But if a person goes and just reads the Declaration today, which we'll be hearing endlessly in the next week. or two, stop and--. stop and look. Jefferson spent more words-- and so did the whole. committee that wrote it--. defending the right of revolution.

than they did of the other natural rights, almost as though life and liberty and consent. were givens. But that right of revolution-- you're. going to overthrow a monarchy? You're going to overthrow a government? They spent 22 lines of the Declaration justifying. that as a human right. Those are dangerous creeds. But you're right. We all own the creeds. And why doesn't the right one to embrace. the creeds a little more?

Well, they do to their own purposes. But those creeds were dangerous, too. It depends on who gets to use them. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: And they've seen. how people have used them. As you were saying here, the-- the first people. who filed petitions, freedom suits, all of those things. are African-American people who said, wait a minute. We've created this country. And that is-- that is an exceptional thing. I mean, to go from a monarchy to a Republic--. JON STEWART: Right. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: --in this modern world, that's a big deal.

DAVID BLIGHT: And it damn near didn't work. I mean, it was contingent--. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: It almost didn't work. DAVID BLIGHT: --at every stage. Right. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Exactly. It was contingent at every stage. And so when you see the people who have used this--. Black people have used it. Women used it in Seneca Falls, 1848. JON STEWART: Right. DAVID BLIGHT: The labor movement. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Gay people have used it. The labor movement used it, said the right to strike. You know, all those things come out. of this notion of the creed. And so if you don't like those things, if you don't want. to see a racial hierarchy leveled, if you don't want.

equal rights for women, if you don't want labor unions to be. able to collectively bargain, if you don't want immigrants--. I mean, the creed was used to teach people who. came to the country, these are the things--. these are the American founding documents. And if you believe these things and you support this, you are an American. If you don't like those-- those people, those ideas, then you're going to be--. you're going to be against it. The creed, as David said, is very, very dangerous. because of who-- and history shows who. has used those things to-- to make a different place.

for themselves. JON STEWART: Is it the success, then, of the creed. that-- and the people that have used. that as a fulcrum to elevate themselves. to their natural, unalienable rights. Is the success of that what animates the backlash always? You know, we talk about kind of the idea of--. well, let's look at Germany. So Germany tries to reckon with its past. And they create laws that you can't deny the Holocaust.

and all these other things. And, you know, people view it as this. is a successful way of facing up to a difficult past. But nothing has animated in Germany right now. more than the far right. DAVID BLIGHT: Yeah. I was just in Berlin a week-- or two weeks ago, Jon, to give a lecture at the American Academy. And I spent some time in Central Berlin. JON STEWART: Where do you guys have office hours? All I'm hearing about is, I'm down here doing a speech.

I'm over here signing a book. Come on! DAVID BLIGHT: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's June, man. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: It's June. JON STEWART: All right, I'll accept it. DAVID BLIGHT: June is every academic's favorite month. In fact, I've always wondered why, if God had all that power, why didn't he create two Junes? ANNETTE GORDON-REED: [LAUGHING]. DAVID BLIGHT: I want two Junes. Anyway, but Germany has in-- in Central Berlin in three, at least, great museums--. and of course, the huge Holocaust Memorial--. has faced its past to time--.

has faced its passed nationally more than any other country. And they had the most difficult past to face. But that's because the world made them do it. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Yeah. DAVID BLIGHT: The world was looking in on. The Cold War made them do it and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. No one came from outside to force. Americans to face their past. We have to do it. We have to do it through our politics. We have to do it through history. We have-- which makes it a political fight, as well.

as a scholarly fight and a history. fight and a teaching fight. And what we're in now is a whole new level of that. I mean, there's never been an executive branch, a presidency take on the entire practice of history, museums. to universities, et cetera. JON STEWART: Certainly not in this country. I mean, it's been done. DAVID BLIGHT: Not in-- oh, yeah, it's been done. It's been done in other autocracies. JON STEWART: That's right. DAVID BLIGHT: And-- and that's exactly what's.

been done in the past year. And we are-- we are catching up. We are trying to figure out with our own resources. how to fight back. And we are fighting back. JON STEWART: Are you heartened in any way? Annette, are you heartened in any way. by sort of the small acts of defiance of that or? ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Well, any act of defiance. is heartening to see people doing. things to stand up against it. Because as we have been saying, I mean, American people-- most American people. don't want a whitewashed history. DAVID BLIGHT: Uh-huh. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: And there are people who are standing up. to say-- you know, local school boards against book banning.

and so forth. It's pulling people out who don't normally participate. in these kinds of things. And that's what it's going to take. It's going to have to take people saying, we don't want to live in Hungary. Hungary didn't want to live in Hungary. JON STEWART: Right. [LAUGHING]. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: And-- you know, after a while. And this is-- our great thing was you were able. to think and to say what you--. you know, say what--. say what you think about things. I've sat on many, you know, advisory committees. and so forth recently in meetings at museums and places.

And people are scared to say stuff or wondering about, can we say this? DAVID BLIGHT: Oh, yeah. JON STEWART: And frightened to put their funding at risk. I mean, there's-- it's a funding issue, as well. DAVID BLIGHT: Oh, yeah. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Never in all years have-- have, you know, I heard people act like that. DAVID BLIGHT: Oh, there's self-censoring. going on everywhere. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Everywhere. It's like--. DAVID BLIGHT: It's censoring from the top in places. like the National Park Service, where I'm located right now. and-- and other federal agencies. But-- but here's one good sign. And I think Annette knows about this.

On September 26, Jon, there's going to be a day or a weekend. And there's a whole coalition of organizations, the major history associations, the Association. of Local History, all kinds of historical associations, museums and so on have come together. And a lot of them are at this little conference I'm hosting. It's going to be a day they're calling We Want More History. We Want More History. JON STEWART: It's not-- it's not the snappiest title.

I'd like to--. DAVID BLIGHT: No, it's not. I wasn't-- I wasn't on the committee that created it. We Want More--. JON STEWART: I don't see that on a T-shirt, We Want More History. DAVID BLIGHT: I would take the word want out of it. Americans always want, want, want, want, you know? But-- but-- JON STEWART: Need. DAVID BLIGHT: But it's going to be a day when every little--. every small museum, every historical society. is going to be challenged. JON STEWART: Right. DAVID BLIGHT: All right, what are you going to do today. to fight back against this attempt to control how. we get to know our history? I think in the long--. I mean, there's a lot of damage being done.

And I am not terribly hopeful about this. But it's very hard to take over a country's history, teaching of it, writing of it, representing it when it's been. pretty free for a long time. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Yeah. DAVID BLIGHT: They're not going to win. this one in the long run. They're going to do a lot of damage along the way. But I don't think they win this in the long run. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: And it's a political question. The question is, what do citizens do?

DAVID BLIGHT: Absolutely. Yes. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: I mean, historians, we can do things--. but as we do things, as historians, as citizens. But other people, this is about voting. It's about, who's in power? DAVID BLIGHT: Right. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: And the American people have. to get-- take control of that. JON STEWART: Well, it's so interesting you bring that. up, Annette. Because it is-- when you look at the battle plan. to take control of that, there's the historical aspect. But there really is almost, more importantly, the voting aspect. DAVID BLIGHT: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. JON STEWART: And when you see them rip out. the pillars of the Voting Rights Act or to suggest--.

and I'm really not sure how this and that--. it's OK to gerrymander for ideological and partisan gain. but not-- and if those are synonymous with race, too bad. And if-- and if districts that are, you know, majority minority lose their ability, not to have minority representation, but to have. their voice matter--. DAVID BLIGHT: Yeah, yeah, yeah. JON STEWART: --within their cohort, that's the interesting thing that-- they're. not just attacking this in-- in one area.

There are tentacles. DAVID BLIGHT: Oh, yeah. This is a-- this is a full force, widespread, well coordinated. JON STEWART: Does Roberts admit to that, David? You know, when you were having your debate with him, I'm curious how he would frame the difference. between creed and blood and soil, as a historian? Or does he-- does he brush over it. because the project takes, you know,

precedence over everything? DAVID BLIGHT: No, no, he-- he wants to speak about creeds. He is a Christian nationalist. He's a Catholic Christian nationalist. And those labels matter to him. He used to run a small, private Catholic school, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. JON STEWART: How does he square that with the American creed? DAVID BLIGHT: [LAUGHING]. Good question. I tried to get him to respond about separation. of church and state. And he changed the subject. So, you know, that's-- that's what they do. But you see, the far right wants the creeds.

And they tend to talk about them by talking about how much. we, the left, liberals, scholars have soiled. those creeds, have misused those creeds, have twisted those creeds, have-- have called. the abuses of those creeds a shame on the country. and on and on and on. They go on the attack immediately, rather than. to step back and calmly say, you know, we're all part. of those creeds, all of us.

And if we didn't have that separation of church and state, we may have blown apart by now. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Oh, absolutely. DAVID BLIGHT: And we may again. They're very selective. JON STEWART: And is there any acknowledgment. that any project of this kind of exceptionalism is going to--. if it wasn't a battle, it wouldn't be so exceptional. DAVID BLIGHT: Exactly. JON STEWART: If the attempt to create what's happening. wasn't hard, well, everyone would do it. DAVID BLIGHT: Every-- look at every major religion.

in the world that founds itself on creeds. It ends up fighting. JON STEWART: Right. DAVID BLIGHT: It ends up having schism. after schism, breakups, Protestant reformations, and on and on and on. It's the same. A creedal nation has set itself up to violate the creeds, because, you know, we don't obey all. the Ten Commandments, either. So. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: But you have to have the aspirations. JON STEWART: Yes! DAVID BLIGHT: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: That's America. as an aspirational country. DAVID BLIGHT: Without that, we're nowhere. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Without that, there was nowhere.

I mean, you-- how can African-American people--. how can any group of people who've been discriminated. against in this country that has. the history that we have without thinking about the. notion of aspirations? Any-- and even-- you know, not even people who've. been oppressed, necessarily. You have to aspire to something. I-- exceptionalism is problematic. I have no question about that. But the idea that you don't see what an enormously important. project it was for the founding of a country. based on Republican--. Democratic Republicanism versus a monarchy--.

JON STEWART: Right. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: And to include words that people have. used over the years to make a place for themselves in it, that is--. it's an exceptional thing. And it's something you should be proud of. And we should be trumpeting. DAVID BLIGHT: Don't you think, Annette, that this. is one of the reasons some--. I hate to racialize anything. But sometimes people, white people, are surprised when they encounter Black patriotism, when they encounter, you know, Black. folks wanting to take back the flag, take back the Declaration. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Oh, absolutely. DAVID BLIGHT: You know, because they say, well, wait a minute.

Why would you do that? Because it belongs to us. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: But we've been here forever, right? DAVID BLIGHT: Yeah, right. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: And I mean, in-- in some periods of times, it was--. it was frowned upon for African-Americans. to celebrate the--. the 4th of July. DAVID BLIGHT: Yeah. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: And from whites. Because they thought that this was-- it was provocative. You're claiming-- DAVID BLIGHT: Yeah, yeah. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: --these rights for themselves. JON STEWART: Douglass himself made that, you know, famous speech about, you know, what is the 4th of July? DAVID BLIGHT: Rhetorical masterpiece, that speech. Oh, boy.

ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Yeah. JON STEWART: But it really is-- you know, it reminds us that aspiration is the fuel of progress. It's the catalyst that drives it forward. And it's always been present. And the-- and the thing that I think-- and maybe this. is a nice place to kind of wrap it through, is-- what happens to a country when it begins. to take its exceptionalism as birthright and not. as a project worthy of constant iteration. and edit and aspiration?

ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Decadence. JON STEWART: Yes. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Degeneracy. JON STEWART: Yes. DAVID BLIGHT: Maybe they would become. a Roman Empire that may begin to collapse with gladiators. I mean, I'm just saying, you know? JON STEWART: Well, that-- that would never happen here, sir. DAVID BLIGHT: No, never. JON STEWART: The idea that, on the lawn of the People's House, half-naked men would grapple seems absurd. DAVID BLIGHT: You know, you know, Jon, you--. I'm sure you know this. JON STEWART: [LAUGHING]. DAVID BLIGHT: But in all those centers. out there that are studying democracy, there are all kinds of these. And they do indexes. The United States is now in that-- that middle zone.

of democracies that are falling back into autocracy. by any measure. JON STEWART: Yeah, softly and otherwise. Yeah, no, you're-- you're absolutely right. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: And it's happened. so quickly at a very surprising-- you know, surprising rapidity. DAVID BLIGHT: It's happened over a long period. But it's-- but it's hitting us quickly. There's no question. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Yeah, no, yeah, definitely. JON STEWART: One of the great bulwarks against that slide. is the work of fabulous historians. And I thank you, both, just for the incredible work you both do.

and-- and the fact that you help build. that wall, that-- that is protective. against those kinds of things. David Blight, Sterling Professor. of History at Yale University, Annette Gordon-Reed, the Carl Loeb University Professor. at-- at Harvard University-- guys, thank you so much for-- for joining us today, really appreciate it. DAVID BLIGHT: Thank you, Jon. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Thank you for having us. [THEME MUSIC]. Folks, we've all got great ideas rattling around. our heads about businesses. If you-- if you got a business idea and you. want to make some dollars, there. is a company that can help you make that pipe dream a reality.

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[CHA-CHING]. [THEME MUSIC]. I could talk to historians all day. GILLIAN SPEAR: I can tell. JON STEWART: Like, I think to the point where, like, I think they're like, dude, I--. office hours are over. GILLIAN SPEAR: [LAUGHING]. But you keep getting As in all these classes. JON STEWART: I'm killing it. GILLIAN SPEAR: Whenever we have a professor on, they're like, you get-- get an A. JON STEWART: You get an A. And yet--. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: 4.0, baby. JON STEWART: --stunningly, when I was in college, I didn't get any of those. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: A+?

JON STEWART: No, none of it. I don't know-- I don't know what. the hell happened where suddenly. I was like, ooh, knowledge. GILLIAN SPEAR: I think that's fair. I feel like college is kind of wasted on--. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: The youth. GILLIAN SPEAR: Young people who are--. don't have the same impression of, like, oh, my God, I get to just learn from these people. That's insane. JON STEWART: It is interesting that the view on the right. is that, you know, these colleges are. indoctrination centers of this left wing, you know, bias and all that. But my experience with college students, because I have two of them, is that, overwhelmingly,

the ethos at college is not indoctrination. But how am I going to get a job? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Mm-hmm. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah. JON STEWART: How am I going to meet a partner? How am I going to get drunk? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. JON STEWART: Like, overwhelmingly, college is not these hotbeds of indoctrination. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah, it's almost. like they're being disingenuous when they say that. JON STEWART: Well, Gillian, I didn't. want to say it in that way. But yes. GILLIAN SPEAR: They're like, look at these college students. with all their ideology. I'm like, I would love for you to turn.

that mirror on yourself, bro. JON STEWART: Right. Turn it on yourself, bro. Because really, they're just looking to score some gummies. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah. JON STEWART: It's not--. GILLIAN SPEAR: It's not that serious. JON STEWART: It's not that hard. It's not that serious. And they're all like, everywhere you look. And I'm like, I've met some of these STEM students, dude. They wouldn't-- they're literally just like, I can't believe they gave me 20 pages of problems. What the fuck is happening to my life? GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah, they're just like, cold brew all night. in the library trying to make it through. JON STEWART: Wait a minute, I just noticed, Brittany.

BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yes? JON STEWART: You're rocking the Stevie Knicks. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Woo! JON STEWART: What happened there? Taylor Swift went to the thing. And they all designed their own shirts. And they've exploded. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Exploded everywhere. JON STEWART: Knicks puns. It's all Knicks puns. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: I know. It's so fun. GILLIAN SPEAR: I saw the New York. Philharmonic has a shirt out. That's Philharmonic. JON STEWART: Really? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: That's funny. JON STEWART: I imagine Nick at Night. should be jumping on this. GILLIAN SPEAR: That's a good one. JON STEWART: To try--. Nickelodeon.

BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Oh, my God, they gotta. rebrand that for next year. Knicks at Night. Let's go. Just to be clear, I did not make this myself, like she did. GILLIAN SPEAR: [LAUGHING]. JON STEWART: Now, do they have-- are they already. selling those? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Absolutely, yes. Like, multiple places are just-- yeah. I did overnight this-- but yes. GILLIAN SPEAR: [LAUGHING]. JON STEWART: Why is it that I can never catch. that lightning in a bottle? You know, she-- she's effortless. Taylor Swift is effort-- she just thinks, oh, you know what? I'll have a fun little thing with my friends, Heim,

and we'll put some shorts on. And the next thing you know, it's. probably a multi-million dollar business. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah, it's a phenomenon. JON STEWART: And I'm still literally. in the living room with my wife going, I'm telling you, the crumple. If-- if you make a dog bed for dogs, you throw it down. It changes the topography every time. We call it the crumple. GILLIAN SPEAR: Sharks, I'm offering you 10%. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: It's going to happen. JON STEWART: Who wants to get on the floor with me. and make some money? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: It's effortless for her.

It's crazy. JON STEWART: It is effortless. Did you guys watch the-- the-- how. did you experience the festivities of the New. York Knickerbockers? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: I did. I just watched at home. And then actually, like--. JON STEWART: Did the streets explode outside your apartment? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yes. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah. That's what I did-- I, like-- when I--. I was getting a little optimistic near the end. So I actually I put--. I put my TV on mute. And I opened up the windows so I could just hear the reaction. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Oh! JON STEWART: You felt that. That's what I wanted to do was feel the city. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah. And then after-- after it ended, I went out on the street. And I took my dog on a walk. And we got to see everybody celebrating and stuff.

JON STEWART: Aw. GILLIAN SPEAR: It was great. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: That's so awesome. JON STEWART: How did your dog handle it? GILLIAN SPEAR: Hated it. JON STEWART: I was going to say--. GILLIAN SPEAR: He was like--. JON STEWART: --that sounds like a great story, except--. GILLIAN SPEAR: He's like, we're walking. towards the loud noises? JON STEWART: Right. Right. GILLIAN SPEAR: I don't--. I don't like--. JON STEWART: Oh, look, Roman candles, my favorite. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yes. JON STEWART: Brittany, did you--. did you pop outside, as well? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: I stayed awake this time. JON STEWART: Nice. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: [LAUGHING]. And we did. I ran outside when there was, like, five minutes left. There's, like, a pizza place near me that. had, like, screens set up.

And it was wild. But the best part was the TV was on delay. So we kept just refreshing our phone to see. And so we saw that they had won. And we were like, they won! And then it was awesome. JON STEWART: That's wonderful. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: And then, like, fireworks-- it was so cool. JON STEWART: It was just a wonderful night. You know, Smigel was the one who-- you know, he was saying--. I was saying, you know, where are you going to watch? Are you thinking about maybe Madison. Square Garden or something like that in the house? He goes, ah, I gotta tell you, I want to feel the city. GILLIAN SPEAR: [LAUGHING].

JON STEWART: And it sounded so like-- and I was like, yes. GILLIAN SPEAR: Oh, my God. JON STEWART: Feel the city. That's what we want. And so that's-- that's what we did. We went down there. GILLIAN SPEAR: You were in the streets. Well, they showed you on the broadcast. JON STEWART: Yeah, that was bad. GILLIAN SPEAR: [LAUGHING]. JON STEWART: I was, like, standing out there. I just looked up for a second. I was like, he, he, ooh, I don't know. I just. GILLIAN SPEAR: You were the Spider-Man meme. JON STEWART: Right. Right. I don't know what's happening right now. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Hey, feel the city. would be a good T-shirt, Jon. JON STEWART: Feel the city. GILLIAN SPEAR: I like that. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Get on it. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah. JON STEWART: You know what else? What if the feel of the city shirt doubled as a crumple,

and you could make it, and you throw it on the floor? Brittany, what do the people want to know this week? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: All right, first up, Jon, after 250 years, is it fitting or disturbing that Trump is president? JON STEWART: Oh, God. Fitting or-- wait. What? Fitting-- it's not fitting. This is-- it's--. Trump as president is not befitting of a country. We just talked about this grand experiment of exceptionalism, of a creed that a people must strive morally.

and aspirationally to get to. And now we're just a subsidiary of Trump Enterprises. It's-- he can't be the guy at the 250. It's such the wrong-- you know what it reminds me of? We're like a long-running show, like a Broadway show. We're like, it's 250 years of Cats. But now instead of, like, the-- the big stars that were there, now it's just like, from Summer House, that's. what-- that's where we're at.

We're at the replacement level reality TV star taking. over a hallowed institution. GILLIAN SPEAR: And the audience is on their phones. JON STEWART: And the audience is on their phones going, like, I remember when I saw this with Matthew Broderick. It was great. It was great. GILLIAN SPEAR: [LAUGHING]. JON STEWART: And now this guy doesn't even know how to sing. GILLIAN SPEAR: Ticket sales down the toilet. JON STEWART: Yeah, no. Done. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: OK. Next. JON STEWART: Next. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Jon, are you. going to replace the Knicks picture above your door.

with a picture of the '26 team? JON STEWART: Oh, I would be-- you know what? I-- I would love a companion. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah! JON STEWART: --to that. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: You have the space looking at it now. JON STEWART: I love that picture so much. Because that is-- that's-- it's when I fell in love with that. team, you know, Willis Reed and the magical coming out after, you know, hurting his leg and hitting two quick jumpers. to lead the Knicks to victory. I mean, he went out of the game after that.

But he sort of inspired the team. And Bradley and DeBusschere would. just these unbelievable-- they were the great, like, corner--. you know, Bradley from the corner just popping them. And Walt Frazier was a magician and Dicky Barnett. And just, those were the teams that I fell in love with. And then they ended up adding Earl the Pearl. and winning again in--. in '73. But that team just represents, like, I. just loved the city so much. And I love that. And that team just felt so representative.

Because it wasn't, also-- like, back then, it was Wilt Chamberlain and, like, you know, the Celtics dynasties and all that shit. And my first-ever game at the Garden. was a double overtime playoff game, Knicks, Celtics. My brother and I went. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: That's so cool. JON STEWART: Yeah, yeah. And-- and the Knicks were getting their doors blown off. It was funny. It was a very similar kind of game. They're getting their doors blown off in the first half. And then Frazier just came alive. And they tied the game, went into overtime, double overtime.

These were the JoJo White Celtics, Dave Cowens. and all those guys and Havlicek, I think, who wasn't playing. But yeah, just-- just the best. And in the heart of the city-- you know, just--. it's just such a special--. there's none of the, like, Meadowlands bullshit. There's none of the, like, we're-- oh, they're the New York Knicks, but they play in a swamp. somewhere near exit 16W. Like, it was in the city. You could take the subway there. You could walk outside and feel this.

It's that thing Smigel was saying. You felt the city. Whenever you went to the Garden, you felt the city--. just fantastic. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Were you court. side for that game, as well? JON STEWART: Oh, yeah. No, they put me right--. I was-- I was right next to the stars of the day. Yeah, I'm not even sure. I mean, I think I might have gotten altitude. sickness at that game. GILLIAN SPEAR: [LAUGHING] The rafters are real. Like--. JON STEWART: Rafters are real, baby. GILLIAN SPEAR: --see up there. Yeah. JON STEWART: Yeah, but-- but they. are-- as they say about the rafters, they are real, and they are spectacular. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yes.

BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: All right, we got. to get you a picture of the--. JON STEWART: Yeah. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: --to go up there. JON STEWART: Yep, yep. What else we got? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Final question in the trilogy. of Taco Bell questions--. GILLIAN SPEAR: Oh, my God. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: --that people want to know. They really do. Chipotle or Taco Bell? JON STEWART: Oh, please. How is this even a question? Chipotle-- hey, you want me to just scoop. it out of a bucket for you? Hey, hey, come on in here. What do you want, a bucket of chicken, or you want a bucket of beef? Or maybe I could give you a bucket of black bean mush.

that we decided to add whatever fucking ridiculous ghost pepper. spice they put in there. Like--. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Brutal. JON STEWART: It's brutal. I don't-- I don't like to eat out of buckets. I like to see some--. I like some origami. I want to see--. I want to know that a craftsman, that an artist-- now, to be fair, they probably do use buckets. I just don't see that part. The real mistake of Chipotle is putting the buckets--.

BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Is being so open. GILLIAN SPEAR: Is they let you see it. JON STEWART: You're walking right down the street. with them. You're like, you want out of this bucket? Or do you want out of this bucket? Let me get my ice cream scoop. And you're watching them, also, do. the, like, portion training--. GILLIAN SPEAR: Yeah. JON STEWART: --where they're like, give me the half scoop and the thing. Let me get them the thing of rice. And then like, you know. There's-- there's a lot of manipulation that goes on. I like to-- I don't want to see the work. I want to see once the piece of paper becomes a swan.

That's all I want. I want to see the swan. I don't want to see the folding. Fantastic-- how do they get in touch with us, Brittany? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Twitter. We are @WeeklyShowPod, Instagram, Threads, TikTok Blue Sky, we are @WeeklyShowPodcast. And you can like, subscribe and comment on our YouTube channel, The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart. JON STEWART: Boom. Do it. Thanks again, as always, Producer Brittany Mehmedovic, Producer Gillian Spear. Video editor and engineer, Rob Vitola-- had his work cut out. for him today-- audio engineer, editor. and engineer, Nicole Boyce, had her work cut out for her today. And our executive producer is Chris McShane and Katie Gray.

Thanks so much, and we'll see you next week. [THEME MUSIC]. The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart. is a Comedy Central podcast-- is produced by Paramount. Audio and Busboy Productions. [THEME MUSIC].