2024 Election, Media Misinformation, & Geopolitics w/ Jon Stewart and London Mayor Sadiq Khan

JON STEWART: Boom! [MUSIC PLAYING] What? My God. [LAUGHS]. Hello, everybody. Welcome once again to The Weekly Show podcast. My name is Jon Stewart. I am the host of the program. I have my two fabulous producers, Brittany Mehmedovic and Lauren Walker, are going to be joining us. And it is UN Week here in New York. It's when the-- the countries of the world. gather together to not solve the problems facing the world.

because they can't even solve the problem of how to get. to the fucking UN building without ruining. the rest of New York City. Am I right? WOMAN: It's maddening. JON STEWART: Maddening! I'll tell you what's not maddening. You know, last week, we had Jason Furman on, who was an economist who was basically daring us. to give him a noogie. I think that was-- you know, he might--. he might have had the data, but boy, did I. want to wedgie that dude. But we got a lot of response from different economists. We're going to actually have one.

on at the very end of the show, who's going to help explain. Her name is Stephanie Kelton, Professor of Economics. She has some interesting thoughts on the deficit. We'll do that at the very end. But because it's UN Week, we've got some interesting people. in the city. Sadiq Khan, Mayor of London, is going to join us. And we're going to talk to him about all the different things, similarities, between the UK elections, the American elections, different dynamics. So I'm excited about that. So let's-- let's jump in. We've got a packed show. [MUSIC PLAYING].

And so we are delighted to have with us, joining us for the conversation, the mayor. of London, Mr. Sadiq Khan. Mr. Mayor, Sadiq, thank you so much for joining. us for the discussion today. And by the way, congratulations to Labor. How long has it been since Labor had their--. their historic smashing victory in the--. in the recent election? SADIQ KHAN: Well, it's great to be in the second greatest city. in the world, in New York. JON STEWART: Wait, oh, you're in New York right now?

SADIQ KHAN: Yeah, it is, yeah. So it's been 82 days since history was made. And the Labor Party, the party that I'm. proud to be a member of, won a general election for. the first time in 14 years. And to give you context, Jon, and for your listeners. in America, who don't realize this, but for the last 100 years, the conservatives, our version. of the Republican Party, have been in power. for two-thirds of that time. So Labor has only been in power for a third. of the last 100 years.

So us winning is unusual. So it's great that we've won after 14 years. And we won pretty big. We won-- we won a landslide victory. JON STEWART: And in some ways, counterintuitive. to the direction that so much of Europe. is going in and even after--. after Brexit, the-- the direction that the UK was going. in, generally, the populists and the right. have been gaining a foothold. This was a bit of a counter. SADIQ KHAN: If you look across the globe, and Europe's not excluded, over the last 10 years, there's been a rise of right-wing parties.

and, even in some parts of Europe, far-right parties. Look at France. Look at Amsterdam. Look at Germany with the AFD. Look at Italy. You know, across Europe, we've-- we've seen this where, basically, you know, right of center politicians have. played on people's fears and won elections. using fear as a motive. And we-- in our election, both my mayoral election in May, but also the general election in-- in July, talked more about hope, and about change, and about positivity. JON STEWART: Hope and-- hope and what now?

Hope and-- where did you? Wait, did you read that off of one of our old posters? That's what we used to go with. We used to go with hope and change. SADIQ KHAN: Well, you stole that originally. from us, if you remember. JON STEWART: Son of a--. really? But now, are you surprised? Keir Starmer, he basically ran against the corruption. of the Tories. And I guess his first 100 days, people are. feeling a little underwhelmed. SADIQ KHAN: Yeah. JON STEWART: He did something with restricting. pensioners' funding. And he's overpaying some of the folks in his cabinet. Was that a surprise to you, that those. were moves Labor made early on in this administration?

SADIQ KHAN: In-- in my view, all-- all good leaders should. do this is-- is be teachers. In a non-patronizing way, explain to people. some of the challenges, some of the problems, and then try and address them. And one of the things that-- that Keir's tried to do, the Prime Minister has tried to do, is to explain to the British public, look, we need a long-term plan to fix the foundations, to address the-- the inheritance we have. And I've got to be straight with you, we've got a black hole. Just this-- just this financial year, '24-'25, we've got. to find 22 billion pounds.

And rather than making false promises. or overpromising and under-delivering, I'd rather under-promise and overdeliver. And the idea is, Jon--. JON STEWART: Isn't that austerity? Hold on a second. SADIQ KHAN: Well, let me explain why. JON STEWART: I thought you were Labor, where you just say. like, let's just print money. SADIQ KHAN: Yeah. JON STEWART: Let's print-- let's. print a little bit more money, go into a deficit, and take care of business. SADIQ KHAN: No, it's OK, in my view, to borrow to invest in infrastructure and so forth, but you shouldn't borrow to--. for revenue, ordinary day-to-day running costs. That's not a smart thing to do.

So at the same time as, you know, he's making tough decisions, in the short term, he's planting the seeds for the middle to long term in relation. to growth, in relation to investment in infrastructure, in relation to saying, listen, there's. going to be a dark tunnel for the short term, but there is light at the end. JON STEWART: Did he explain that beforehand? Did he say to the-- to the people during the election, hey, by the way, we're in a dark tunnel and I'm going. to have to do some things to--. SADIQ KHAN: No, to give-- one of the things. that he was criticized for was the-- the manifesto that he. published, not making big promises. He was actually criticized for the manifesto.

being quite sober. And he said during the campaign, I'm not going to make any promise I can't deliver. I'm not going to have any-- any commitment in my manifesto. that isn't fully costed. And many people criticized him for-- because where's the hope? You know, where's-- where's the sunny uplands? Where is the-- where is the excitement? And-- and the point he made was, look, you know, the phrase that--. you know, that I've been echoing is, actually, stability is the new change. We've had a situation, Jon, where. we've had five prime ministers in the last five years. Just think about that.

Five. We had one prime minister who lasted 49 days. A lettuce has a longer lifespan. JON STEWART: A head of lettuce. I saw that. SADIQ KHAN: Yeah, there was a competition. who would last longer, this lettuce. or Prime Minister Liz Truss. JON STEWART: By the way, it has changed the way. that I approach eating salads. I now-- I will let something sit for much longer. It's the-- I call it the Liz Truss Salad. And I will eat it days after I shouldn't. have even gone near it. SADIQ KHAN: As long as it's a salad you're eating and not. prime ministers, that's OK. JON STEWART: Yes.

Now, are you surprised-- you know, we are in a very similar situation. And it's interesting how immigration and migrants has--. it's not just in particular countries. It's a worldwide phenomenon that is driving. these populist movements. I mean, it drove Brexit. It seemingly seems like, if Brexit had not have passed, maybe Labor wouldn't have had the great success. it had in-- in this election. But I was surprised-- what was the-- the slogan for the Tories.

was stop the boats? SADIQ KHAN: Correct. JON STEWART: And I think the slogan for Labor. was stop the gangs who are funding the boats, like-- but both leaned into this idea that migration, and-- and confusingly, sometimes, immigration, is an enormous issue. SADIQ KHAN: I think progressives around the globe. haven't yet found the language to talk. about these issues in a way that I think we should. be talking about this issue.

Look, this great country that I'm in now, this city that I'm--. I'm in now, New York, you know this better than I do. What made this city, this country, great. was successive waves of migration. I speak as a child of immigrants. You know, my parents migrated from Pakistan to London. My grandparents, by the way, from India to Pakistan. No migrant, you know, goes through what they do to arrive. in a city or a country to sit on their bum. to-- to receive benefits. They arrive because they've got a can do attitude. They want to contribute.

Sometimes, they may be fleeing persecution, sometimes family reunion. And we've got to explain the positives of migration. At the same time, we've got to recognize. there are some members of society. who've got genuine grievances. They can't get decent health care. They can't get affordable housing. They can't get their child into a decent school. But the reason for that is not because of the migrants. It's because politicians have failed to invest. in these sorts of issues. JON STEWART: But there are, obviously, limits. I mean, if you can't--. as somebody who does believe immigration,

migration is an important part of infusing. a country with new energy, and new ideas, and new enthusiasm, and all these kinds of things, I'm also of the mindset. that there--. we have to have a discussion of, what can countries--. certainly, the United States has a different absorption. rate than the UK or then, let's say, Liechtenstein, or wherever we're. going to be talking about. That's the part that we don't ever really discuss. SADIQ KHAN: So I think--. I think one of the things-- look, I've--.

I've not met a sensible progressive. who says, open borders, let anybody. come, no rules, no conditions. JON STEWART: No, I haven't either. It's-- it's an easy demagogue, but--. SADIQ KHAN: Spot on. So-- so there's got to be-- there's. got to be controlled borders. There's got to be a process. And by the way, not every asylum seeker will. have a successful case, right? They-- they may not be a genuine asylum seeker. They may not be fleeing persecution. There's got to be a rule system that assesses this, sends. people back who shouldn't be here, but there's got to be a process. And if you haven't got safe routes, safe passages,

don't be surprised if people use. unsafe routes, or criminal gangs, or-- and all. the rest of it and stuff. And that conversation is really important. It goes back to one of the things. that I think my profession, politicians, has been poor at, which is to be teachers, to explain to people some. of the challenges, some of the issues, and to-- to address them where you can. And I think what's happened, Jon, to go back. to your point about the rise of populist nativist movements, is what politicians have been doing is rather than addressing. people's concerns, addressing people's fears,

they've been playing on them. And the easiest thing to do-- and, you know, this goes-- you go back to history is--. is to blame the other. The reason you can't get decent health care is. the other's fault. The reason why. you can't get your-- you mum in operation is the other's fault. And it's easy to do. And us progressives have got to get better. at responding to genuine concerns, but also calling out a lie and misinformation in relation. to what migrants have been blamed. for doing across the globe. JON STEWART: Well, you had that situation in England recently.

where, tragically, I think three children. were-- were stabbed to death. The misinformation about where the attacker came from, it actually turned out to be somebody from--. from Wales, maybe? His parents had emigrated here, but it set off really. terrible riots in the streets. SADIQ KHAN: For those of you listeners. who aren't aware, so-- so this summer, in July, in Southport, in the Northwest of England, there was a lovely kid session. taking place of yoga, a Taylor Swift-themed yoga.

event, a lovely event, children, teachers. A man came into this yoga-themed party, killed, tragically, a six-year-old, an eight-year-old. and a nine-year-old-- JON STEWART: Terrible. SADIQ KHAN: --injured eight other children, and injured two adults. Now, this person responsible is born in Cardiff, in Wales. And there's a criminal-- criminal case taking place. I won't talk too much about the case. What happened then was, very shortly afterwards, a lie was put out on social media, which said the person.

responsible was a Muslim. Not true. The person responsible was an asylum seeker. Not true. And this was amplified on--. on social media. By the way, one of the owners of the social media company. got involved in spreading the lie. JON STEWART: That's unusual for him. SADIQ KHAN: What happened then was, Jon, a, inverted commas, protest took place that night. And then the far right turned up. They tried to burn--. well, they did burn down a hostel house in asylum seekers.

They tried to attack places of worship where Muslims worship. Jon, they were stopping cars to see. if the person inside was a person of color or was white. And these riots spread across the country, combination of lies, disinformation, misinformation, and social media. And so in the end, you know, Prime Minister. Keir Starmer, you know, stopped this by tough law and order. In London, by the way, we had thousands coming out. in solidarity and allyship because, here's. the irony, in those parts of our country.

where there's the most diversity, actually, you don't have these sorts of problems because, you know, people realize that, actually, somebody who's a person. of color isn't the boogeyman. Somebody who's a child of immigrants isn't the boogeyman. A migrant isn't the boogeyman. It's those parts of the country where, actually, there. is very little diversity where these disturbances took place. JON STEWART: And by the way, it's. also-- there's a certain kind of implied problem. here that I think also needs to be addressed, which was, well, it turns out it wasn't an asylum seeker, or it wasn't a Muslim, or it wasn't a migrant.

But even if it had been--. SADIQ KHAN: Spot on. JON STEWART: --none of this is justified. And it brings up-- and I'd like to talk to you about this. This is kind of a broader point, but, you know, we talk about democracy under threat and what. we can do to bolster liberal democracy. and-- and the forms of government. that we've all fought so hard, sometimes even. against each other. Let's face facts. We're friends now, but it was-- we had a hard time. But the challenge, I think-- we talk about the demagogues.

and the right wing using migrants, and Muslims, and, you know, all these other groups, and Jews, and people of color as weapons against each other. I think one of the main--. if there's a unifying theory to this, if we go up and get kind of a macro view, we are in an environment where the media and social media. are incentivized to--. SADIQ KHAN: Spot on. JON STEWART: --conflict and to catastrophizing.

And so we have a population that is far more. stirred up, that whose reptilian. brains have been stimulated by these media companies who. are incentivized to keep you scared. and to keep you watching. And then we have--. and this is where it gets interesting, I think--. a Democratic system which is naturally analog. It's kind of slow moving. It's not that agile. And so you have a government that might not. be very responsive and a population that's.

far more intensely engaged. And maybe that mixture is what's. putting democracies at risk. SADIQ KHAN: So we've-- we've got examples of this, actually. JON STEWART: Yeah. SADIQ KHAN: 2016, the Brexit referendum. you mentioned in the UK, we now know that, you know, lies were told. But Facebook and a company called Cambridge. Analytica were--. you know, some of their methods used in relation. to that election campaign, we know.

there's been all sorts of serious issues in Myanmar. because of lies being spread on social media. I think a number of things, just. to unpack your-- the challenge you posed in the modern time. One is this, when you and I were growing up, the-- the mainstream media we relied upon information, there'd be fact checking. There'd be two sides of the story, and we would get both sides of the story. And you and I as rational human beings. could form a view, right? There are young people now, you know, in both our respective countries being raised where.

the way their algorithm on their phone works. is they-- whether it's, you know, TikTok, whether it's Facebook, whether it's, you know, X, they-- the way the algorithms are set up, they get one side of the story with no fact checking. And if you look at a certain video, you know, the algorithms work. You get the same sort of video. It could be a misogynistic man. It could be-- JON STEWART: And worse. SADIQ KHAN: --a racist man. And worse. And there's no fact checking. And over a period of time, you become indoctrinated, and brainwashed, and start believing. that that is your truth.

JON STEWART: And that's how they make money. SADIQ KHAN: And what's worse is they monetize these algorithms. So negativity gets more money. So that's why this phrase, clickbait, is so apt for what. we're talking about. And so people know, if they mention certain names, it's a trigger, which will lead to the algorithms work. in a certain way, which means there's. no incentive for these social media companies. to have negative algorithms to stop that, staff to stop those. lies being spread. And so in the last couple of years,

X has gone the other way, fewer staff employed to check truth, algorithms designed to spread misinformation. rather than designed to take truth off. Now, if-- if you were to say anything on your program that. was against, you know, defamation, copyright, intellectual property, incitement laws, it's the Wild West on social media. There are no rules that apply. And the famous Mark Twain saying, you know, a lie is halfway around the world. before truth's got its socks on, nowadays with social media,

I mean, a lie is spread. We've had riots in the UK because. of lies, misinformation, disinformation. And the context in a democracy is really serious. And that's before you mention foreign agents. That's before you mention bot farms. JON STEWART: Sure. People that are weaponizing it. Now, the challenge is free speech. So in-- in liberal democracies, we. have a value on free speech, which I. think is incredibly important. I think the distinction I want to make. is, this isn't free speech. This is incentivizing people to engage.

more with lies, with weaponization, with things that create fear. It's not-- an algorithm isn't neutral. It's not benign. It-- it drives you to further and further places of dispute. And-- and in some ways, I think that. can be suppressive for free speech. as well because that-- isn't that the balance? How do we maintain free communication, free speech.

for people, allowing them to exchange ideas. without necessarily incentivizing the most damaging. of those ideas for further engagement? Does that make sense? SADIQ KHAN: It does, but I'd qualify what you've said, which is I think we've-- we've got to recognize that even. in the most liberal Western democracies, there are. limitations on free speech. JON STEWART: Sure. SADIQ KHAN: So you aren't allowed to breach copyright. or intellectual property, or be defamatory, or incite hatred, and so forth. JON STEWART: Incite hatred, I don't know about.

But the other ones, I think you're right. SADIQ KHAN: So we-- as the most progressive. Western democracies, we've recognized. there's some limitations in-- to having a civilized society. Here's-- here's where I think where the problem is. JON STEWART: Yeah. SADIQ KHAN: Lawmakers have been slow to respond. to the rise of social media. And here's-- here's what social media. companies need to recognize. Unless they sort themselves out, regulation is coming down the road because we've. got to regulate this. And if you can't do it as nation states, there's got to be multilateral agreements.

because people will try and, you know, play around--. JON STEWART: Like nuclear power. SADIQ KHAN: Absolutely. Let me-- let me give an example of a real life study. You've heard of deepfake, right? JON STEWART: Sure. SADIQ KHAN: So in the UK, we have--. every November the 11, at 11:00 AM, we. commemorate our fallen heroes. It's called Remembrance Day in the UK. And at the cenotaph, we have an event. where veterans come along, you know, and we. pay our respects to them. Last year, we also have been having. regularly protests in support of people in Gaza taking place.

You know, and it's really important in-- in a democracy, we allow protests to take place, as long as it's peaceful, lawful, and safe. Now, here's-- that's the background. So in the week before Remembrance Day. last year, some-- you know, some malevolent people put out. a deepfake-- deepfake of me instructing the police. to cancel Armistice Day, to cancel Remembrance Day, because I wanted the police to allow a Palestinian protest.

to take place, right? JON STEWART: So this is you coming out and saying, we want to cancel our Remembrance Day, and I want there to be a--. SADIQ KHAN: Spot on. JON STEWART: --pro-Palestinian--. SADIQ KHAN: Spot on. Spot on. JON STEWART: And this is a video? This is an actual video? SADIQ KHAN: This is a deep fake audio because--. and it was supposed to be a secret recording. of me instructing the Metropolitan. Police Commissioner. So I'm instructing the police, saying, listen, the most important thing is pro-Palestine Council. Remembrance Day. Jon, this thing spread. It went viral, right?

What happens then is the far right. organize a protest at the cenotaph. because they believe that I want to cancel Remembrance Day. JON STEWART: Right. SADIQ KHAN: What happens then is they rock up at the Cenotaph. and there are disturbances. They assault police. They attack the police. There are broken bones. And here's the irony, Remembrance Day was disrupted. not by pro-Palestinians--. JON STEWART: But by this violence. SADIQ KHAN: These so fast patriots. JON STEWART: Right. SADIQ KHAN: I inverted commas, right?

That is just one example of what we're talking about. And so you're spot on. You know, this-- this technology is being. used in a malevolent way. And we've got to regulate it because, if we don't regulate. it, it's the Wild West. And that's why I'm saying to the social media. companies, look, wake up. If you don't sort yourselves out, there'll be a problem. Now, they must have known, Jon, early on, this was a deep fake. And if not, why not check with me? Why not say, listen, by the way, this thing's gone viral. Can you please confirm, is this you or not?

JON STEWART: Oh, but sometimes, Sadiq, it's-- it's coming. from the leaders themselves. Donald Trump and JD Vance knew that Haitian immigrants, who. most of whom were there legally, were not actually going around Springfield, Ohio--. SADIQ KHAN: Yeah, [INAUDIBLE]. JON STEWART: --and eating people's pets. But they said it-- when told it wasn't true, said, well, it may not be specifically true, but that's how people feel. And this is a larger point. Sometimes, it's not fakes at all.

It's actually coming from inside the house. SADIQ KHAN: Well, in that-- in that case, what I think we--. we need to be better at doing is not giving equivalence. I'll give you an example, is this-- you've. probably heard this before. I think I may have got it from you, which look, if-- if you tell me it's sunny in New York, I tell you, you know, where I am, it's-- we're in the same room. It's raining. Rather than it being reported that, you know, Jon Stewart said it's raining, Sadiq Khan. said it's sunny, your job as the journalist, say, I've looked outside the window and it's raining, you know.

And then-- and then the recipient. of the-- the fake news, the disinformation, can know that, actually, somebody has checked. and that's a lie. Would that-- would the Spring--. Springfield, Ohio story--. Jon, don't be surprised if some people believe it's true. JON STEWART: Not some people. I'd say 80% of a certain political party in the United. States not only believes it's true, but is being somehow covered up and is evidence of not only. the truth of what was happening with Asian immigrants, but of a media conspiracy.

But I want to get to the point that you. said earlier, which is, we-- we do have to regulate that. And that's-- again, that's the second half of this equation. I have watched congressional hearings on social media where. they'll-- they'll haul in the heads of these. companies or they'll do it--. these senators and these congressional representatives. are so in over their heads. You know, we used to do a big bit about Ted Stevens. from Alaska who would-- you know, very famously goes, the internet is a series of tubes,

as though it's literal plumbing and, you know, food goes down there. So even when you said, we've got. to regulate these social media companies, well, AI is around the corner. We haven't effectively done anything to stem any. of this in the first place. That was my point about, how do we. make representative government more responsive. and agile to the needs of the people as also a counterweight? It's one thing to be against misinformation. and all those things.

And that is an absolute issue. But to be fair, government has not. been particularly-- especially here in the United States. And I obviously can't speak as--. as much to-- to England. SADIQ KHAN: No, it's-- same. It's the same. JON STEWART: But the discomfort that people feel. in their own lives is not being adequately. represented, I think, by our government mechanisms. And that creates the fertile ground for demagogues.

SADIQ KHAN: I mean, I think you're being. generous to-- to lawmakers. And I speak--. JON STEWART: [LAUGHS]. SADIQ KHAN: I think it's not-- it's not just an issue of--. of them being Luddites or inexperienced. Don't forget that the social media companies are really--. JON STEWART: Are lobbying. SADIQ KHAN: They're lobbying, right? They're lobbying. JON STEWART: Of course. SADIQ KHAN: And they're spending a huge amount of money. to avoid regulation. They're hedging their bets, There's a very good reason. why the owner of one of the companies. wants Trump to win rather than Harris. There's a very good reason for that.

You know the impact Facebook had. in 2016, both in the referendum and. in the presidential elections. They've got skin in the game. JON STEWART: They're saying Trump is for free speech, while he's literally threatening to jail Mark. Zuckerberg if Mark Zuckerberg acts in a way. that Trump feels is election interference. I mean, it's-- cognitive dissonance is rampant. in this new environment. SADIQ KHAN: Yeah, and that's what my point's about. Actually, the reason why it's a bit more-- even more serious. than you say is because there's a new generation. of young people raised on TikTok.

and other forms of social media who only. see one side of the story. They-- they absorb things in an echo chamber. There is no challenge. And that's a big concern for all of us. And so one of the things we've got to do, and we're trying to do this in London, is trying to, at an early age, teach young people the skills. to be more stoic, to be resilient when it comes. to this sort of brainwashing, to fact check, to have the sort of, you know, cognitive ability. to check for themselves.

But also, we're trying to speak to the social media. companies to--. to make them explain their responsibility in relation. to algorithms, how they monetize certain things. I'll give you an example. If you were to record a song today, a Bruce Springsteen song--. JON STEWART: Hey, hey, you-- you go easy, buddy. SADIQ KHAN: You'll support me in saying, so if you were to do a Springsteen song and breached. copyright, it would come down like that. because there's a consequence of you breaching copyright. And, you know, Bruce Springsteen. has got great lawyers.

And, you know, it'll come down. But there's no consequence of you doing social media a lie, a disinformation, so forth. And that's why I think we've got to-- we've got to explain. to the social media companies, look, you've got to sort it out. If you don't sort it out, there's regulation coming in, which won't be necessarily what you want. JON STEWART: No, but let's take the flip side, though. So here's-- here's where I think government. finds itself in trouble. And let's take the COVID pandemic. as our example for that. So everything that you're saying. is incredibly reasonable.

But to-- to do those types of things, you have to earn a certain trust from the public. that you're being up front and evenhanded. So let's go through COVID. You've got to lockdown. Everybody's got to stay in their houses. Meanwhile, oftentimes, government officials. are having sex parties, and cocktail parties, and doing all these things. So immediately, there's a disconnect. The people aren't going to trust it. Then they come out and say, you have to take this vaccine. If you don't take the-- the vaccine. is 100% safe and effective.

Now, clearly, nothing is. I mean, you watch, you know, pharma advertisements--. I know they don't do them over there, but over here, man, there's a list of 20 things that. could happen to you if you also want. to cure your headache, right? And now that same entity is going to come in. and say, OK, we're going to regulate and pull off. disinformation and misinformation without having. a very good track record of being able to discern what's. misinformation and what's disinformation, and of producing misinformation.

So do-- do you see the difficulty? This is the point I'm making about, we can always point to social media and all those things. And any new media form from the printing press. on has been disruptive. What I'm saying is our governments have to also. be self-reflective and have to find a way, how do we-- how do we attack that side of it? SADIQ KHAN: Well, firstly, nowhere in the globe.

will you ever get a government that's perfect. JON STEWART: [LAUGHS]. SADIQ KHAN: And we never have. And we never have. JON STEWART: No question. No question. SADIQ KHAN: And we can't allow best. to be the enemy of the good. But if you think about a rectangle, if you think about, on the one extreme, people accept it straight away, the-- the importance. of the vaccine. JON STEWART: Right. SADIQ KHAN: On the other extreme, people, no matter what, think it's a conspiracy, COVID doesn't exist, people aren't dying, the vaccines are evil. Those are two extremes in the rectangle. The vast majority of people are actually in the middle, right?

They just want to-- want to be presented with the evidence. and the science. And that's where experts come in, whether it's experts on climate change, experts. on whether the Earth is flat, experts on whether when you got. a toothache, you go to a dentist, experts. on-- on the vaccines. And I think you've got to basically, Jon, write off this extreme in relation. to the COVID deniers' conspiracy theorist. You've got to, you know, take those who are definitely. on side and then educate the vast majority in the middle. with people who are respected, trusted message carrier.

So in London, we had a real life problem, which is this, which a lot of people in the middle, particularly people of color, for actually good reason. didn't trust the pharma companies. because, in their country of origin, they were used as guinea pigs. JON STEWART: Hey, we did it here in America. I mean, the Tuskegee experiments. and all kinds of other things. Yeah, sure. SADIQ KHAN: So-- so what we had to do, we realized. there was an issue of--. the phrase was vaccine hesitancy, which is certain communities weren't taking the vaccine. for actually-- for actually genuinely. good reasons, for historical reasons and all of it.

So what we did, Jon, is I recognized that, actually, we. need respected message carriers who they trusted to say, look, I've taken the vaccine, it's OK or whatever, whatever, whatever. And the same applies in relation to any issue. I think we as politicians have got to have the humility. to realize we need other experts to come in. and explain to the public. JON STEWART: I guess the question is, how did the experts gain-- because here, exact same. mechanism I think it was--. and I think they would admit this now in retrospect, that the experts were not--.

were so concerned about that side of the rectangle that. you're talking about, the kind of-- the crazies. that couldn't have been convinced at all--. SADIQ KHAN: You're not going to win them over. JON STEWART: --that they went overboard in the way. that they talked about, this-- you know, they didn't educate in a manner that spoke to that middle that. might have had valid concerns. They-- they went too far. And so ultimately, they ended up. hurting the credibility of-- of the expert class, heard--.

and listen, you know, big pharma has a long way. to go to gain the trust of-- you know, there's nobody that. could look through the Sackler papers. and-- and what's been done with OxyContin and all. those other things and think, oh, those guys are on our side. SADIQ KHAN: Yeah. JON STEWART: I think we have to recognize and speak honestly. and openly to skepticism. Skepticism is not conspiratorial. SADIQ KHAN: There's nothing wrong with that. That's a good thing. I'd-- you know, the age of deference, in my view, is--.

is gone. And-- and so it should be. I'm all in favor of getting a second opinion, you know, in relation to a doctor, or, you know, a mechanic, or-- or a dentist. But I make this point, whatever issue. it is-- look, if my car's broken down, I'm going to go to a mechanic. If I got a toothache, I'm going to go to a dentist. JON STEWART: Of course. SADIQ KHAN: If I-- if I got a backache, I'm going to a doctor. And so, you know, I think--. I think my concern is politicians. have tried to downplay the importance of-- of experts. I'll give you an example in my country. So during the Brexit campaign, those of us.

who wanted to remain in the European Union. said, look, speak to these businesspeople, speak to these university lecturers, speak to those experts. They-- they are telling you the benefits of the European Union. And. There's a phrase used by a leading Brexiteer. He said, the public is fed up with experts, right? And so what happened was the-- the public. started ignoring the experts. And it was an emotional decision. It was emotion rather than rational. And I'm all in favor of experts because, you know,

as I said to you, in our personal life, we use experts, right? But--. JON STEWART: But there's a certain humility. to expertise that has to be. SADIQ KHAN: Spot on. I think we should welcome people asking for us. I always say to doctors and lawyers, you should welcome somebody asking for a second opinion. JON STEWART: Of course. SADIQ KHAN: Because if you're-- if you're doing your research. and you've done your-- presented your case properly, you have nothing to be scared of, nothing wrong at all. JON STEWART: You know, it's interesting. And-- and when you ultimately come down to it, so one of the most emotional driving forces of Brexit. was that idea of these people of color.

coming and changing the very fabric of England. SADIQ KHAN: Spot on. JON STEWART: Ultimately, removing yourself. from Europe made it harder for so-called European white people. to come in. Many of them left. What are they replaced with? The very immigrants that they feared in the first place. SADIQ KHAN: That's one of the ironies. JON STEWART: It's all turning around now. SADIQ KHAN: That's one of the ironies of Brexit. Actually, immigration in the UK has gone up. The immigration that's gone up is people of color. JON STEWART: Wait, what happened?

What's going on? SADIQ KHAN: [INAUDIBLE]. JON STEWART: Now, when you look at our situation--. and I don't know how closely you follow it. And by the way, the fact that you guys. do your elections in the amount of time that you do, God bless. I wish-- I think that would take care of so many problems. in this country in terms of a never-ending campaign. and election cycle that constantly provokes. and pushes people's emotions. What did it take, eight weeks for you guys? SADIQ KHAN: Six weeks. JON STEWART: Six weeks.

SADIQ KHAN: Here's-- here's the issue as well. JON STEWART: My god. SADIQ KHAN: So-- so I've got friends who, of course, are American politicians. As soon as they've won the election, the next day, they--. they start fundraising for the next one, right? JON STEWART: Crazy. SADIQ KHAN: And that leads to short termism. But also, frankly speaking, you're. obsessed by raising funds, right, rather than delivering your manifesto. How can you make a long-term 10-year plan or an eight-year. plan if your obsession is raising. funds for the next campaign? But also, you know this better than I do, if you're always,

you know, obsessed by poetry in a campaign, where's the prose in making the tough decisions in relation. to fixing the foundations, making the plans? JON STEWART: And we'll spend, I mean, billions and billions of dollars. I think-- I read somewhere that the entire election for Labor. was under $100 million. SADIQ KHAN: Oh, no, no, you'll love this even more. So during that six-week campaign. I mentioned, the six-week short campaign, each party maximum, maximum for the six weeks, can only spend. 35 million pounds, right?

JON STEWART: And for those of you who are listening at home, a pound is equal to, I think, a nickel? Is that correct? SADIQ KHAN: So about a dollar. About--. JON STEWART: Right. It's about a dollar. So 30-- and--. and it's six weeks and it's $35 million. SADIQ KHAN: That's it. JON STEWART: And then you've got five years. You won't necessarily have five years, but you've got five years to govern, to actually govern. SADIQ KHAN: And that's the rhythm of our cycle. So that-- that rhythm is really important because you--. at the beginning of this interview, you mentioned a tough decision made by the Prime Minister. JON STEWART: Right.

SADIQ KHAN: He will have worked out--. I've not spoken to him about this. He will have worked out the rhythm [INAUDIBLE]. we have a tough decision now. And the fruits will come in before the five years are up. Now, if he was obsessed by the next election, you'd think, oh my god, I can't do. this because I may not be able to raise money for my election. Oh my god, the donors may not like it. and so forth, which is-- doesn't lead. to good long-term governance. It's not conducive to making long-term plans for the best. interests of the country. And I think it's really important because, listen, you know the Churchill saying as well as I do. I think Churchill once said that, you know,

democracy is an awful thing, but it's the best we've got. JON STEWART: That's right. They say the same about capitalism as well. SADIQ KHAN: Yeah, you know-- JON STEWART: Similar. SADIQ KHAN: The point being is that, look, it's not great, but actually, we've got to try and make it work because I. think the problem is, if you're always. obsessed by the election, what about the governing? JON STEWART: And it really does open the door to these kinds. of less stable movements. I mean, look, it-- it really does seem like, you know--. and we go back to kind of that post-World War II order. You know, there is a movement afoot. to replace what has been sort of the stable,

what they call rules-based order. And by the way, not perfect. And oftentimes, exploitative of resources. from underdeveloped areas. And I don't think anybody's been able to-- to fix that. But it really does look like, at this point, it's going to come down to, what are the new axes of power? If Trump wins, I imagine the axis of power. goes through Russia, Hungary, and the populist movement. Whereas, I think if not, it stays. within kind of that-- it's who's. going to carve up the world? Is it going to be China and Russia?

Or is it going to be the US and Europe? Unfortunately, that seems to be where we're headed. SADIQ KHAN: So there's a great saying that I--. that's an American saying from an American. Democrat politician that I--. I think it's really important we remember this. All politics is local, right? So-- so, you know, most people in America on November. the 5 will be voting in relation to, what's best for me and my family? And I understand that. But your elections in November are so. much more important than that. The geopolitics of who is the President of the USA, you set the-- the weather.

You know, you can either send out ripples of hope. or you send out ripples of fear. You mentioned the axis. JON STEWART: Guess which one we're leaning? [LAUGHS]. SADIQ KHAN: Well, but-- but it really matters. Look-- JON STEWART: No, I know. I'm with you SADIQ KHAN: And so--. JON STEWART: I'm with you. SADIQ KHAN: Just so if you're-- if you're somebody another--. in another part of the globe and you see that the President. of the USA, you know, doesn't follow the rules, treats women a certain way, treats people of color. a certain way, has certain views about the second biggest. religion in the world, you know,

has certain views in relation to NATO--. JON STEWART: Destabilizing. It's very much-- it's disruptive. SADIQ KHAN: What impact does it have on the rest of the globe? JON STEWART: Right. SADIQ KHAN: And so it's really important. And so, you know, it does matter. And so, of course, I appreciate, you know, your listeners. And those in the USA will be making. decisions based on what's--. all politics is local, but understand the consequence. of this decision. JON STEWART: You're asking us to-- to think. about other people, to-- to think about. somebody other than ourselves. SADIQ KHAN: Look, in a parallel universe, what would Ukraine have done without the support of the. USA, right? In a parallel universe, where would.

NATO be right now, you know? And so it's really important to understand that, actually, all of us, all of us around the globe, are watching with so much keen interest what. happens on November the 5. JON STEWART: Well, we hope to have an answer for you. by November the 6, but chances of that are-- are not good. SADIQ KHAN: The question is, Jon, will everyone accept the result? JON STEWART: Oh, god, don't even. All right, Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, I want to thank you so much for joining us today. SADIQ KHAN: It's been a pleasure. JON STEWART: And such an insightful conversation. And I really appreciate you. Enjoy your time in New York and get home safe. SADIQ KHAN: Great. Take care, mate. See you soon.

JON STEWART: Thank you, sir. [MUSIC PLAYING]. Sadiq Khan, the mayor of London. Fabulous. Interesting ideas on how we-- we balance that free speech. and government. My-- my faith in government being able. to regulate these complex and modern. digital technologies is--. it not so high. But we are going to talk a little bit more. about the economy from last week's episode. We were discussing inflation and the economy.

We had on two economists, Jason Furman from Harvard, which. he made very clear that's where he was from, and Kitty Richards. Often, what happens when we have discussions. about inflation or the economy with economists. is another economizer, other economists, will contact us and-- and suggest that, well, I've got something I could. perhaps proffer that's a different explanation. And-- and we had that happen with this one as well. So we are delighted to welcome back Stephanie Kelton,

economics professor at Stony Brook University, author of The Deficit Myth. One of the things we were talking about, Stephanie, was that these larger deficits might. be inflationary because, you know, obviously, people are paying higher rates for their mortgages and things. like that. And also, if the government is paying a lot of money. on interest on the debt, it may not. have the resources to do the kind of stimulus that would. maybe be more helpful for--.

for individuals, whether it be demand side. or-- or anything else. But you've got a very different approach to this. So talk to me. STEPHANIE KELTON: Well, I mean, Jon, I think the evidence is, like, laid right before us, right? There were people-- so if I may? JON STEWART: Please. STEPHANIE KELTON: Yeah, so there--. there has been for a very long time this idea that. when the government increases spending or cuts. taxes and the deficit increases, that it leaves you with fewer resources,

like you're less able to respond. to a crisis in the future. And we've heard that over and over again. And I'll just give you an example. When the Republicans passed their tax cuts in 2017--. JON STEWART: Right. $1.7 trillion. STEPHANIE KELTON: In-- in that range of $2 trillion. So, you know, people like Larry Summers, for example, did not like the idea of the Republicans. pushing these tax cuts through. I didn't like it. But when Larry was arguing against the Republican tax.

cuts, he said-- and I'm going to quote him. OK? So this is exactly what he said. He said, "If the Republicans are successful in pushing these. tax cuts through, we are going to be living," he said, "on a shoestring for decades to come because of the increases. in the deficit.". Whoa. And Larry has warned, god help us if they get away with this. There isn't going to be money if a crisis comes. We're really up the creek because we're. living on a shoestring. And lo and behold, a crisis comes only a couple of.

years later. COVID is at our doorstep. And do we find ourselves without the fiscal firepower? There's no money? The cupboards are bare? No, of course not. JON STEWART: Well, to be fair to Summers, he was against the amount of money. that-- that the government gave to the American people. during the COVID crisis too. So he was consistently against everything. STEPHANIE KELTON: And consistently wrong. I mean-- JON STEWART: Boom! STEPHANIE KELTON: --you couldn't have been more wrong. than to say that because of the tax cuts and the increases.

in the deficit, the government was going to be unable, would not have the resources, to respond to a crisis. JON STEWART: Because we can make money. STEPHANIE KELTON: And we did. Congress authorized bill after bill, fiscal package. after fiscal package, $2.2 trillion, $900 billion, $1.9 trillion, $5 trillion. in the span of 12 months, Jon, and for exactly the reason. you just said, because Congress has this thing. called the power of the purse. They get to spend money into existence. There is no running out of money.

What you can run out of are things to buy. JON STEWART: Or political will. STEPHANIE KELTON: Yeah, or political will, which is what we didn't have. And I could also talk about Larry there as well, what we--. what we didn't have in 2008. JON STEWART: Yeah. STEPHANIE KELTON: We had all the firepower that we needed. JON STEWART: That made me so angry. STEPHANIE KELTON: But we-- we chose not to use it. because, politically, people like David Axelrod and Larry. Summers were advising Barack Obama. and saying, anything with a T. You cannot say trillion, right?

That will give people--. JON STEWART: But, Stephanie, there must be a limit to what. the government can do, yes? Like, if we got to a certain point, wouldn't it just be devaluing of currency? STEPHANIE KELTON: That's why I said a few seconds ago that you. can't run out of money, but you can run out of things to buy. So inflation was always the thing that we should have been. preoccupied with, not the number that pops out. of the budget box if it's a trillion, or a trillion and a half, or whatever. the size of the deficit. You can have very large deficits.

and de minimis inflation, but you. could also have fairly small deficits. and an inflation spike. So inflation is the thing to watch out for. Can Congress spend too much? Sure, they can. Instead of a $1,400 check, they could. have sent $14,000 or $140,000. It would have had a real problem. JON STEWART: Stephanie, the thing that I--. I kept trying to get to with--. with Jason Furman was the idea of the efficiency of capital, that it seemed like our experience in 2008,

and the experience with the Trump tax. cuts, and the experience then with the stimulus money that. was sent out by the government shows that money. from the government delivered at the demand level, like the stimulus rather than the tax cuts, is a much more efficient use of government capital. It stimulates much more growth, much more demand, much more GDP. So why don't we do that more often?

We could spend less, get more pop, keep people in their homes. Yet almost overwhelmingly, politically, stimulus goes to the highest and the corporate level. STEPHANIE KELTON: OK, because a couple of things. One is that when you think about macroeconomic policy--. and you have, like, two policy levers. One is monetary policy. That's what the Fed does. And the other is fiscal policy. That's what Congress does. So we have, for the-- for the past 50 years or so,

just relied disproportionately on the Central bank, on the Fed. It's like, your job is to give us a good economy. You give us full employment, you give us price stability, and Congress will just worry about, like, managing the budget, and trying to bring down deficits, and whatever. So fiscal policy, which you just described, works really, really well, has been, like, the thing. that we put on the wall. And we put the thing above it that says, in emergency, break glass. We don't use it except in an emergency.

JON STEWART: So monetary policy is more on that supply side. Fiscal is more on that demand side. We don't use it as much. STEPHANIE KELTON: Well, Republicans. will use fiscal because they always do tax cuts. because it's in their DNA. So any chance they get, they will come through and pass. tax cuts, the Bush tax cuts, the Trump tax cuts, and so. forth, Reagan, but that--. JON STEWART: Even those go to our-- our supply. side, generally. And they go to the highest. STEPHANIE KELTON: Exactly. So then it becomes like, how are they structured? And who benefits? So take the Trump tax cuts. If you look at the personal tax cuts,

it is true that everybody across the income distribution. got a little something from the Trump tax cuts. But it is very true that the people at the tippy top, those in the 1%, got the lion's share. So some 83% of the benefits went to folks in the top 1%. of the income distribution. JON STEWART: And corporations got, like, a 30% tax cut. They went from 35% to 21%. STEPHANIE KELTON: Yeah, and then you use the word stimulus, which you asked about earlier. JON STEWART: Yeah. STEPHANIE KELTON: And you have to at-- at some point kind of. shake your head and go, why are we.

calling it stimulus when it doesn't. actually stimulate anything? I mean, we've been running the experiment for 50 years. The results are in. We have the data. It doesn't work. There's a recent study out of the London School of Economics. where a team of researchers looked at the last 50 years. They looked at the data, they looked across countries, and they found that the supply side policies of the kind we've. just been talking about have benefited. exactly one constituency. And it is the very rich.

JON STEWART: Right. Stephanie, would you say-- so to put a bow on it--. and thank you for this. This is-- this is really helpful. STEPHANIE KELTON: Sure. JON STEWART: At what level would. you say the debt or the yearly deficits become an issue? Like, listen, Trump is out there like, let's just use crypto to pay down the debt. Like, now it's just about a shell game. of moving magic around. But what-- you know, and Krugman would. say trillion dollar coin. Like, does it make sense to just. create something to go in there to lessen.

our interest payments? What's-- what do we do then with that debt and with. those yearly deficits? STEPHANIE KELTON: Jon, the first thing I would say. is that we should ask ourselves, why are we issuing treasuries in the first place? Like, why do we do that? People say the government has to borrow. to cover the shortfall, to finance deficits, and all that. I don't think that's the correct way to describe. what the government is doing. You know, the government is paying contractors. Think of defense contractors. They're paying beneficiaries--.

JON STEWART: $400 billion a year. STEPHANIE KELTON: Paying people on Social Security. They're paying federal workers. Everybody gets paid in dollars. Government makes its payments, and then it collects some tax. So let's say this fiscal year, the government's going. to spend around $7 trillion. It's going to collect back around $5 trillion. We call that the government deficit, right, because they're spending more than they're. collecting back in revenue. So what's really happening? What's really happening is they're putting $2 trillion.

into the economy. Their deficit becomes the surplus. JON STEWART: Is stimulus. STEPHANIE KELTON: Well, it may or may not stimulate very much, but it is $2 trillion that goes into somebody else's pocket. You could be done right there. You could leave people holding that $2 trillion. and say, OK, the government added $2 trillion, but we don't do that. What we do is we match the deficit. each year by having the Treasury. issue bills, notes, and bonds. And when they do that, we call it borrowing.

And we say they're driving up the debt. All they're doing is allowing people. to trade in some of the dollars the government has spent. into their hands for a different kind of dollar. called a Treasury security. Those are interest bearing. JON STEWART: So you're saying we could do this. without ever selling our debt? STEPHANIE KELTON: Sure. JON STEWART: You're saying we can run these deficits. or run these debt without allowing the Chinese government. or somebody else to come in and buy up. treasuries and hold our debt.

And then we wouldn't have to make interest. payments to those entities. STEPHANIE KELTON: You got it. And if you--. JON STEWART: Well, why would-- Stephanie! STEPHANIE KELTON: Jon-- JON STEWART: What? STEPHANIE KELTON: Look. Look, you know who wouldn't want to do it? Look, the-- the beneficiaries of this are the people who get. that sweet, sweet nectar that you're talking about, which is the--. JON STEWART: Investment capital. STEPHANIE KELTON: The interest income. JON STEWART: Right. STEPHANIE KELTON: It's interest income. It's like, people talk about entitlement programs. and all this sort of stuff. And they wring their hand and say, oh, this is terrible. You know, we have this entitlement problem.

This is the biggest, most regressive entitlement. program that we have. It goes exclusively to people who. already have money in proportion to how much. they already have. It is a subsidy largely for the wealthy. JON STEWART: It's unbelievable. It's this idea, you're almost, like, saying like, you could buy a house without a mortgage. Like, that's kind of what we're talking about. But what would-- what would then. hold those deficits in the real world.

if somebody isn't holding that debt? STEPHANIE KELTON: Well, OK, this is the other really. strange thing, which is that if you have. a dollar in your wallet right now and you look at it, it says Federal Reserve Note. That is a liability of the Federal Reserve, which is part of government. We don't call those debt. We don't say, I'm walking around with government debt. in my pocket. We don't put it up on a big debt clock. and try to terrorize the population by saying, you know, all of this is part of the national debt. JON STEWART: We-- we do do a big debt clock.

to terrorize the population. STEPHANIE KELTON: But that's because we're. keeping track of the treasuries, the bills, the notes, and the bonds. Those get called the government debt. JON STEWART: Correct. STEPHANIE KELTON: They're just as much debt. as the dollar bill in your pocket, but we label one the national debt. and we don't call the other one the national debt. All of the dollars that are-- you. know, banks have at the Federal Reserve. are kept in accounts called reserve accounts at the Fed. The Fed pays interest on those. And the Fed-- the Financial Times had a piece up just.

a few days ago that said-- are you ready for this number, Jon? The Financial Times said that because of the interest rate. hikes the Federal Reserve has been paying out, interest on those deposits that the banks keep at the Fed, $1.1. trillion to the banks just since the Fed. started raising interest. It's just interest paid on deposits. Like, it's cash in their accounts, effectively. JON STEWART: And that's a trillion dollars that we. don't-- are not able to use for investment, or infrastructure,

or standard of living. None of that stuff from the government. That's all just to enrich the banks, to hold our treasuries. STEPHANIE KELTON: The point is to just recognize. that the way we describe things, right, that we call. treasuries the national debt, but we don't call reserve. balances the national debt. We don't call the dollars in our wallet the national debt. They're all liabilities of government. And I think what we really have is just, you know, a failure to communicate properly. JON STEWART: But you do believe there.

is some limit to all this? STEPHANIE KELTON: Sure. As I keep saying, coming back to inflation is the limit. You cannot-- yeah, you cannot just take. out the money bazooka, and go wild, and expect no consequences. You're-- inflation is the thing you have to manage, and you. have to do it carefully. JON STEWART: Stephanie Kelton, thank you. for coming on and offering those explanations. And thank you for doing it in an accessible way that allowed. me to understand it more clearly. without making me feel like the dumbest. person in the universe-- STEPHANIE KELTON: Anytime. JON STEWART: --which sometimes happens.

Stephanie Kelton, thank you so much. Economics professor, Stony Brook University, author of The Deficit Myth. Fabulous. Lots of show. I hope you guys enjoyed it today. It was very dense. We'll have one next week. Maybe we'll take our time. Maybe we'll relax. Maybe we'll enjoy ourselves. Thanks again, as always. Lead producer, Lauren Walker. Producer, Brittany Mehmedovic. Video editor and engineer, Rob Vitolo. Audio editor and engineer, Nicole Boyce. Researcher and associate producer, Jillian Spear. And the executive producers, Chris McShane and Katie Gray. Thanks so much. We'll see you guys next time.

[MUSIC PLAYING]. The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart. is a Comedy Central podcast that's produced by Paramount. Audio and Busboy Productions.