Donald Trump’s Endgame | The Tim Dillon Show #501

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Tim Dillon show. We have Jonathan Swan coming on, and Maggie Haberman, they are the reporters from the New York Times. who just wrote the biggest political book. of the year, regime Change. And this thing sold out everywhere. And it is a, it's about the first year. of the Trump presidency. We took Epstein the war, Iran, the assassination attempt, Charlie Kirk, et cetera. And it's doing very well. I was in a suburb of LA and I tried to get the book.

and some woman, you kind of, you know, a little bit of a, a larger woman was like, it's rolled out. You know, like she's kind of one of these, there's just a certain type of person. who works in a bookstore. It's a larger las who has kind of. kinda that wet hair, that kind of, you know what I mean? It's kind of curly, but it's not, you know, and she's got like a lanyard on.

and she's behind the information desk and, and like, Hey, what about regime change? And she's like, it's sold out. They're doing a reprinting now. And you're like, okay, great. So I couldn't even get it. I haven't read it and I won't, but I think it's important to discuss No, because I know a lot of what's in it, but I will read it. I don't think I will, but I might. You should.

Who cares? Everyone's reading it. We talk about Vance, we took about Trump. Cash Patel, we try to get into stuff. It's hard to do anything in 50 minutes, which is what I realise. You know, they're, they're on this massive press tour. and they, and I wanna go deep with them. And we tried and, and it is pretty good. I think the interview's good,

but this is why when Rogan does three hours with people, it is much better because you scratch the surface. But they're both really sharp reporters. and they have tonnes of access to the White House. But I tried to get that book, I couldn't get it. And then I went over to William Sonoma to try to buy, to try. to buy a bunch of stuff. And this woman was walking me. around the store, what was her name?

Halal Holla, holla. And we got a bunch of stuff. But then I do tried to do the tap. and she goes, we need the actual card now. I just have Apple Pay on the phone. I don't have the card info. So we had spent about 40 minutes walking. around the store selecting different things. and choosing colours of things. And then she goes, we don't, you gotta, we need the actual information. And then I just had to get in my car and leave. And I felt bad about that. Maybe I'll go back today with my actual card.

I don't know. I, I think they had the order. and I might just come in with my actual card. They still have the order. I got a bunch of stuff I need. Got a, a nice coffee maker, a Breville, nice espresso cappuccino maker. And exciting stuff.

Exciting stuff there. So this interview's coming up. and we hope you enjoy it. We, we, I think it's a great interview, you know, but again, it's like they're. writing for the New York Times. So again, there's no evidence, Epstein's intelligence. And they haven't seen any evidence. No one's seen evidence, no one, you know, it's all, you know, okay. Alright. All you can do is ask.

And what people mean by that is like. that they weren't in the room. Like there's, there's ev there is evidence. I'm not trying to impugn their credibility. 'cause I know that they're like straight LA reporters. They're like, we have not seen ev And it's like w well, there is though, but I understand you, you, you haven't seen enough evidence to make that claim. Okay. Because they have standards, which I appreciate,

but it's like, well, there is evidence, there's just not, like, maybe like maybe you couldn't convict him in court, like that type of evidence. But I also think there's that evidence also. I believe there's a, ironically enough, I actually believe there's that evidence too. But, you know, you do the best you can. And I, I appreciated them coming on. These are the big dogs at the New York Times.

I asked them if they were afraid of getting replaced by me. because, and the princess Diana bear, hello Omni Bear. Are you scared of being replaced by the Princess Diana Bear? They have a serious answer. They have a, a serious answer. But, you know, we're heading into the summer now. and I don't know that anyone will care about any of this.

I don't even care about it. I don't care about any of it. You know, as I was doing the interview, and by the way, I'm not trying to insult either one of them. as it was doing the interview. I don't care about any of this. I don't, I have no, it's just, it's, I don't care anymore. I, because that's what starts to happen in the summer, it's like not I know that I should, but I just don't Well, the thing is that Netanyahu actually,

yeah, yeah, yeah. I bet. I think you, they're right. I don't doubt the reporting. How long can one care about this? Once it's quite obvious what this is. Once it's exposed, like what it is, then. how long can we care about like the finer points of it once, you know, it's all kind of a sham. How exactly are you supposed to care that much about.

how and why? It's like if someone rips you off, you got, you got ripped off. You know, like you, you, you're in a car with your wife, she's like, you know what I think really happened? Here's what probably happened. You go, yeah, we got fucked. I don't wanna keep going over this. It's like, I don't even wanna, you know what I mean? Like I bet we're not the only ones to get taken by that. Yeah. Whatever. I, we, I'm concerned with us. So there's, there's only a,

a limited bandwidth you have to go over. And again, it's not to take anything away from them in their. book, which I'm sure is fascinating, but there's just a limited amount of bandwidth. You have. Like one of the revelations are like, you know, Trump talks. to a lot of people that are very hawkish and pro-Israel. Wait, what? Hold on a minute.

Hold the phone. Wait, I can't, I don't understand. My brain is melting in my head. Are you telling me? And they're like, and then they're like, you know, Trump, he wants to, he sees himself as a great man of history. and did he, he, you know, he wants. to make an impact on the global stage, everything. And you're like, yeah, I know. Yeah.

Well, I know that I didn't have to, I don't, and I'm not again, buy their book, read their book. But like, it's one of those things. And this is, again, it's, I'm not, and again, I'm not, this sounds like. I'm, I'm shitting on it. I'm truly not. But what I got from that interview is you go, yeah, yep. What are, what are these revelations? What are these big revelations?

I'm serious. And again, not in a, an an attacking way. or an accusatory way. I'm super grateful they came on. But what, what are we learning? What are we learning here? Trump is, you know, he's, he's, he likes power. Yeah, yeah. He likes power and the people around him,

and he's at odds with his base. Right? He doesn't really care. He just, you know, he's, he likes power. and exercising power, and he wants. to be remembered in history is like a psychopath, like Mao. or Hitler or something. Okay. But you could get. that from just watching him a little bit. You wa this is the problem now with like, and it's not a problem. And again, read the book.

I'm sure it's phenomenal, but like, you know, the book already, this is the issue. that we have with everything. They're like, the revelations in the book are startling. Trump didn't want the Epstein talks out. Yeah, yeah. The revelations in the book are unbelievable. Trump didn't want the Epstein docs out.

Yeah, yeah. Well we knew that. Read the book. So I, I mean, I'm sure there are things in the book. They, they certainly uncover little things like Trump, Trump learned about Kirk's. assassination from his son Barren. There, there's things they uncover, they take you in the situation room, you know, and the people go. But here's the thing, here's my question. I'm, I'm saying this honestly, and I, and I, and I,

and again, I don't mean to be, if you just made up your own book, like how close would you get to their book? Kind of close. Like if you just made up your own book, from. what you know already, you kind of have their book. If you just invented your book about how it happened, you'd be close to their book. Do you see what I mean? No one's, is anyone like.

really going like, how did this happen? Like yes, I asked that question because I, I have to, but like, it's obvious how it happened. She's like, you know, Maggie Aberman again, great reporter. She's like, Trump really liked the pager attack. Of course he did. It's great tv. It's an episode of MacGyver pagers start blowing up in. people's hands. It's a fascinating.

and impressive display of violence, which Trump loves. So like, it's almost like, yes, d does anyone, like, if you went up to someone in a supermarket. and goes, what do you think Trump thought about the. Hezbollah, you know, the Israel pager attack on against Hezbollah. Does anyone think Trump would go, well, it's terrible, you know, you know, innocent people could have been heard.

No, no, he's gonna go, that was great. That was amazed. They bought these patrons from a company. They had no idea it was Israel. Then they all blew up. Yeah, guess what? There's no period of history that is needed. Less explanation than this period. That's what's difficult. Nobody needs to know anything because everyone knows it. Everyone knows it. Are there things people don't know? Sure.

But the broad strokes of it are in front of your face. If you don't get it, you'll never get it. If you are confused now, there's no hope for you. There's no helping you. Trump doesn't care about anything. that you think he cares about in the sense that like the, he understands that it's all a show.

And basically what he wants to do is he's gonna try. to whack some leaders. and knock over some country so that in history, they can turn around and go, yeah, that Donald Trump, he was the man. That's what he's trying to do. He doesn't care if you get, you know, an operation on your foot. He doesn't, it's not his, he's not trying to do that. He's not trying to, you know, he doesn't care. He doesn't care about deportations or immigration.

Whatever he presented. that he cared about, he doesn't care about any of that. He doesn't care. Term two is about let's wax some. people I have. Because by the way, when you have all that power. and you don't get to use it, he's. sitting around going, what is it for? He wants to fire a nuke. Of course he wants to nuke someone. There's no way. He doesn't want to nuke someone. He wants to know what it feels like to order a nuclear, a first strike nuclear attack on someone. Because why have it,

why have this capability and not use it? He wants to do it because this has been fun for him. He's like done all the things. Term one, he was kind of like sandbagged by his advisors. They're like, you can't do this. He killed Soleimani. And then term two, he is like, yeah, it'd be fun. to bomb people. It'd be fun to start a war. I wanna do that. And I'm sure he is like, it'd be fun to nuke someone, you know, it'd be fun to press a button and vaporise. He's done it all really.

Except that you don't look back at Trump's life. and go, wow, so many missed opportunities. He's done it. He's been rich, he's been famous. He's been married like five times. or whatever, four times, three times, whatever. The guy, you know, he's fucked a bunch of his friends' wives. and assistants or whatever. The dude lived in New York, has a building. with his name on it, has built buildings all over the world, was a mega star of reality.

TV is now the president of the United States, again, survived assassination attempts. The only thing he hasn't done is fire a nuclear weapon and, and vaporise a killing a large number of people at once. And you know, bibe probably went in there. and was like, you know, you could do that. and history would look kindly on you. And Trump probably thought about it. That's the one thing he hasn't done.

The one thing Trump still wants to do, and is, and he probably admits this to close friends. or people that he talks to, I don't know. I think there's, there's a part of him that wants. to nuke somebody. There's just a part of him that wants to, to, to get the nuclear football out, put in the code. He's gonna, he would love it. He'd love the process of it. He would love and he would talk about it. He'd do interviews after he goes, they bring in the football, you know, the football, the nuclear thing. It could comes with me wherever I go.

We had it in Palm Beach. I spoke to the generals. There was no other way. We took a break. We're at Palm Beach, we're having a dinner. and we had a, a Frank Sinatra impersonator there. He was singing. We told him to take a break. We wanted to treat the moment. with the seriousness it deserved. So we stopped the Frank Sinatra impersonator right in the. middle of my way, which is one of my favourite songs. He would be sang this, it's one of my favourite songs. We stopped him and he goes, I took a nice moment of silence.

and then we, I, I pressed a button, we fired the nuclear weapon. And then we said, before it hits the news, we knew there was a 10 or 15 minute. lag before we hit the news. He goes, at that point we just had the Frank Sinatra. impersonator continue singing. And he did that life, which was oddly fitting. And then I could see footage that were showing me footage. of the nuclear weapon detonating. And I asked, I go, how many people get it immediately? And then, and then, and then he go, he would say something like,

I call 'em the uglies. How long do the uglies hang around? Like the people that get deformed. or like get radiation poisoning. He goes, how long do the uglies hang around? And they explained to me, they said, well, most people get it in the beginning, but then there's the uglies that run around. And then I asked, should we put them out of their misery. with another nuke? And they were like, well, I don't know about that. It's the second nukes a PR nightmare. The first nuke we kind of get away with.

We say there was no other way. It ends the war. So don't think that Donald Trump. doesn't wonder about what it feels. 'cause all the people that he respects, or at least puts himself in their category, this list of crazy leaders. They've all killed lots of people at once. So he definitely thinks about what that would just from a. a a, a visceral, like what does it feel like. to kill a bunch of people at once? How does that feel to press? It's the ultimate power if you think about it.

The ultimate power is to just from your country club, press a button and kill a lot of people instantaneously. He wonders about that. His death. Now, probably he won't do it, knock on wood, thankfully. But like he wonders about that. and it, it, it excites him a little bit. That's a type of guy. He, it excites him a little bit. Maybe I'm not saying he's, you know, a complete monster.

or something, but like he does think a little bit about, you know, what would it be like to fire a nuclear weapon? It hasn't been done. And he'd be the one to do it. And he also thinks about like generations from now, people would be like, Trump used a nuke. He used a nuke. And he knows that that would put him in the history books. too, as the guy that used a nuke. Because Truman used the atomic bomb. But we haven't used a nuclear weapon since then.

And Trump wonders like, what if I'm, I guarantee he's like, what if I'm the guy to do it? I think part of him thinks like that. 'cause that's the way he understands the whole thing. 'cause like he is, it's a little bit kid in a candy store with him. It's a little bit of a Willy Wonka chocolate factory. Like outside people are like, you know, projecting onto him. They're like, he's he's gonna save America.

He's gonna get rid of the immigrant. He's gonna do this, he's gonna do that. But inside it's really with him. Like, what does this button do? What does this lever do? What if I could do this? How could I, how many people can I kill with this gadget? What contraption can we kill these? How do we deal with them? Do we kill 'em? Do we, because that's how he understands the world. It's all just, it's it's power. Who has it? Who doesn't? And the more power that you exercise, the more history looks back at you.

and they're in awe of you whether they say good. or bad things. And he realises that it, it almost doesn't matter. because number one, he won't be around. But number two, he also knows that he's gonna lose control. of the narrative no matter what. The only thing he'll have is the power that he exercised. Did I do it or not? So I do think that he sits down at night. and he eats like a overdone steak at Mar-a-Lago. And he sits there and he goes, you know, in the back.

of his head he thinks about like, what would it be like if I was the first president since. Truman to fire a nuclear weapon at itself? What would it feel like the next morning? 'cause people will, you know, at the end of your life, you know, you go, I did it all. I fired a nuke. I did it all. I fucked Marla Maples. Who was this like third wife you had Tiffany with. who was like a hot blonde? You know? And I, I owned a country club.

and people showed up there every day and worshipped me. and told me I was great. And I became the president. And then they tried to kill me and I survived. And I became the president again. And I was sitting there one day at Mar-a-Lago for lunch. and I went, the only thing left to do is. to fire a nuclear weapon and kill a lot of people. So that in history, I'm remembered as a guy. who did something. I wanna do something. That's what Trump's about.

He's like, I just wanna do something. And I, and I don't wanna, like, he's not trying. to like increase literacy rates in the third world. He knows that. He's not like Jimmy, Jimmy Carter who's like, I'll build houses for homeless people. Trump's like, that's not what I'm gonna do. I wanna be, he kind of doesn't mind if people like, it was like a reign of terror. He doesn't mind that he's not that affected if. that's the way history chooses to remember him. He just wants to do something.

And I think there's no way he hasn't thought. about what would it be? Like, what would it feel like to fire a nuke? He probably is like woo, the power, the unbelievable power that you have in your hand. when you fire the nuke and then you get up the next day. and you are like, it is what it is. We just nuke someone and you go downstairs to Mar-a-Lago. and PE people are a little sombre that day. 'cause you just nuke someone and you give a little speech.

and you go, it was the only thing, you know, we had to do it. There was no other way out. And then the people Mar-a-Lago. are kind of, you know, they're nodding, they get it, they're with you. You're the guy who just killed everyone. And they're, and they're nodding and they believe in you. And everybody's kind of on the buffet line. and people are just kind of slowly eating their. scrambled eggs. And then, you know, by like two. or 3:00 PM you know, the day starts normalising. Like, yes, the TVs are on.

and you're talking about all the people that were killed. But like, you know, they're kind of muted. People are chatting people like, thank God we did this. Otherwise it would've been a much bigger war. Much more people would've died. Thank God we have Trump to make the tough choices. And then you'd go golfing the day. after he murdered a tonne of people, he would go golfing. and he would be on the golf. course and the press would be there. And he thinks about this. He, because it's the last thing he,

and I don't wanna manifest this, but it's fully the last thing he, and then that, you know, it's the last thing for him. to do would be to just kill a large number of people just. for his own, his own curiosity. And the fact it would guarantee his place in history is like. he nuked them. Trump nuked them. And he'll say, he go, A lot. of people thought about doing it. I did it. I did it. So let's hope he doesn't do that.

But that's, that would've been cool if they had. said that in the interview. If I said, what are some. revelations that are interesting to you? And they go, Trump really just wants to nuke someone. He doesn't care who, that's the other thing. I don't know that he cares who he nukes as long as he gets. that rush. 'cause he's curious. He's like, what would it feel like. to just kill everyone? That's the way he thinks. That's what makes him interesting. And dare I say fun, dare I say fun.

That's what makes him interesting. He goes, what would it be like to kill everybody? 'cause that's why he became the president. He is like, I wonder what it would be. like to be the president. Like, what's that guy's at Trump's level of life. that have been rich forever and all that shit. They don't really, they're basically at the point. where they're going get me some new experiences. And one of them would be like, what if I. controlled the president? Like then you get in there. and go, oh, I can't even do any, like nothing works.

Nothing's really fixable. There's all these problems. So then he starts going, what if I just killed everyone. because the system's broken, but what if I just killed everybody? Like that would be awesome. So I guarantee, and I'm sure he is asked about nukes. and I think they told him like, you can't nuke people. I think he's asked, I'm pretty sure he like asked. like the joint chiefs. He's like, so what about these nukes? How does that work? That's the last thing from the, he's very bored.

No one will tell you this. He's really. bored in the presidency. You can tell he's like bored. He's done it all. It's, it's enough already. He's right. He's become, he's gonna be a lame duck soon. The last thing he has to do is just nuke somebody. That's all he wants to do. That's all he wants to do. That's all the president of our country wants to do is. to wake up in the morning and press a button. and vaporise a large number of people. That's all that's left. And then I think he'll go, I did it. I got it. I get it. I know what the job is. The ultimate power is to just press the button.

and send a ballistic missile flying. I don't think he cares anymore about any, you see these speeches he gives, it's very half-hearted. He's like, nah, where, where our drug pre, I saw him the other day. He talking about prescription drug prices. He's like, the drug prices are coming down. He doesn't, he, he wants to nuke somebody. He wants to order a nuclear attack, a first strike nuclear attack, you know. And he wants to know what it, what it feels like. to just sit in a chair at Mar-a-Lago and,

and just see just those mushroom, that mushroom cloud go up. And he'll see a bunch of people, you know, there'll be people on the news scurrying. and there'll be the blast zone and the radio. So he'll get into that for a few days. Like, what's zone one? What's zone two? What are the effects of zone three? And he, he that, that's the last thing he has to do on earth. I I, I'm telling you right now, I will bet money that he, the last thing he wants. to do on earth is just fire a nuclear weapon before he goes.

He's done it all, he's done everything except that. So I guarantee you he's curious. I bet he's reading about nukes. I bet he's asked generals questions. that have made them deeply uncomfortable about. what it would be like to fire a nuke. And I, and I, and I think he is one. of those guys who like, just wants to go out with a bang. I think he really, he's got a few years left of life. and he knows that his place in history is, will kind.

of be solidified if he just fires a nuclear weapon. He's like, I gotta figure out a way to do it. I gotta figure out a way to do it. So I think when the Iran stuff. comes up, it's kind of interesting. He's like, well maybe I'll just drop the big one. Like maybe I'll just fire a ballistic Miss La. So our interview now is with Jonathan Swan. and Maggie Haberman, who wrote the book Regime Change about. the Trump administration's first year.

It's a good interview. They do go into some. interesting tidbits from the first year. of the Trump presidency, Vance, Epstein, Iran, Kirk, et cetera. So enjoy it. Thank you. Summer always changes how I get dressed. I want pieces that feel lighter and more breathable. Things that are easy but still put together.

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book of the year, as evidenced by the fact. that it is sold out everywhere. I was curly told by a employee of Barnes. and Noble that it is sold out and I would have to wait. and that they were waiting for the book to be reprinted. because the demand was so high. So congratulations to both of you on that. Thank you for coming on the show. Maggie, I want to ask you the first question. You know, famously, during Trump's first term, you had a tonne.

of access to Trump, and I know you had kind of a rocky relationship. There were times he loved you, there were times he was disappointed in you. What would you say the main defining characteristics now. that you've observed Trump up close, what are the main differences. between Trump one in his first term. and now the first year of his second term? Is he more emboldened? Is he more confident?

What exactly do you think the main defining differences are? It's a good question. Although I think that. him loving me was the, a word I wouldn't go with. Okay. But definitely he, you know, he spoke to me and, and, and so forth. This presidency, Tim is, this term is really unrecognisable. so far for the first 14 months or so to the last one. Like he is flying on gut instinct in, in a way.

that we've really never seen. And he's always been a gut instinct player, but not like this, you know, in 2017 he came to Washington, he was under investigation. He didn't really know most of his government, a bunch. of them felt like he was dangerous. and that their, their job was to stop him. And now he's surrounded by people who many of hi whom were. with him for the four years, he was outta power. They watched him make it through indictments and court cases. and assassination attempts, and they really believe in him.

and they want him to succeed. And so all of that has made him much more emboldened. and he's so much less attuned to domestic policy. and, excuse me, domestic politics than he was before. In term one, you could sort of see what was going. to slow him down at various points. You know, he would watch negative coverage of like, you know, the, the border. and how policy was being handled and he would change it. It's really not the case the same way this time. It's not black and white, like sometimes,

sometimes he'll make changes, but he is operating on, on what he wants to get done. And he's, he's playing for like a, a bigger stage, Jim. It's like he wants to be remembered in history in a way. that he can't be erased. Just to follow up on that, do you think there's a guiding political. philosophy behind him? It, it is often said that Trump is a populist. or a nationalist and that make America great again. You know, Steve Bannon describes it. as a populist nationalist movement.

Is there anything behind that? Is there, is there a political ideology. behind that for Trump? I know for many of his fans there is, and for many of the commentariat, for lack of a better word, there is certainly, but for Donald Trump in the, in the sense. that you've observed him over a long period of time, do you think he has political principles? I think that he has certain core Id like. impulses on a few things.

that he's talked about for a long time. And trade would be the main one. Other countries ripping us off, ripping the US off on national defence would be a big one. Being against the NATO alliance would be a big one. But generally speaking, I, I personally, and Jonathan May have a different answer on this, I think there is a difference between the, the MAGA movement. and I mean where Trump is, Trump is able. to change and I think that's kind.

of what's hurting him right now. He is able to say two different things about the same issue. and has been for a very long period of time. But he was very emphatic in 2016, you know, no more, no more foreign wars, no more foreign overseas, middle East Wars said the same thing in 2024. And he, you know, our reporting, and we write about this in the book, but there is, there is this belief that Netanyahu just kind. of like puppeteered him into the war. And, and it's certainly true, Netanyahu made a case,

but Trump really wanted to do this. and he believed it would be quick. And he is much more hawkish on Iran than a lot. of his own advisors. So there has always been a bit of a divide. between the movement and Trump, but his supporters were willing to give him a lot of benefit. of the doubt that I think he has lost some now. But Jonathan, I'm, I'm curious. if you think I'm wrong there. Yeah. Jonathan, what would you say the main tension points are. between Trump, the man and Trump, the movement? Because now we've seen. that the fishers in the movement have grown over Epstein.

over Iran, Right? Slightly a little bit over, over some domestic issues. as well, you know, Palantir ai. Where do you think the main tension points are? What does the MAGA movement not understand about Trump? Well, I think you just put your finger on a bunch of them. The first time I really saw the movement. Cleve away from Trump was actually,

I wanna say it was 2021, whenever he did that tour with Bill O'Reilly. It was, it was like in his off years when he was out. of office and he was doing this like stage tour. with Bill O'Reilly, used to be a fox anchor, and Trump starts boasting about the COVID vaccine. and the crowd's just like, boo, remember this, you fuck Woo. And like you could tell Trump was really like startled. because you gotta remember, he doesn't really get exposed.

to negativity. Firstly, he subscribes to the sort. of the power of positive thinking. You know, he, he grew up. with Norman Vincent Peel was his. pastor, right? Maggie? At, at, Yeah. Eventually his family ended up worshipping there. Yeah. But, but he wrote this book, the. Power of Positive Thinking. And Trump really manifests that. He, he doesn't allow negativity. And when he's on the patio at Mar-a-Lago, he's surrounded. by Flatterers, right? They're coming up to his table, he's playing the iPad, he's like, you know, playing Pavarotti and James Brown.

and piping it through. and they're coming up to the table going, great job Mr. President, you're crushing Iran, you know, keep your boot on the neck, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And then he goes back to the White House. and he's surrounded by Flatterers. I mean, what Maggie said is really important. because what's happened in this term is look, every president exists in a bubble. We've seen that, I mean, Biden certainly did. Every president does, but Trump's bubble has tightened. And there's really not many people inside that bubble.

who are telling him, sir, actually people really don't like this war in Iran. Or, you know, this pro problem. with affordability is a real issue. It's not to say no one is doing that. JD Vance was a, a, a really singular lone voice actually in the lead up. to the war with Iran saying, this is a terrible idea. This is a disaster laying out the problems with munitions. and all the things that we've come to see the straight. of m potentially closing.

But even though others on the team had a lot. of scepticism about going into Iran, they really didn't voice that in the room with Trump. It was very mild. And look, I think I, I'm sort of, this is a bit. of like cheap psychoanalysis, so treat it. as cheap psychoanalysis. But I do think there's an intimidation factor. You know, when you're in the room with Trump, there's a sort. of, I don't know if you've been around Trump, but. I've never met him. I've never been in the same room with him.

It's a really interesting thing, Tim, like, he sort of, he Tucker talked about this actually publicly. It's almost like I don't wanna get like, you know, supernatural about it, but he, I think Tucker used the word spell there. There's something to that. He sort of, he create, no, he creates an, he creates an atmosphere around him. and like, you know, if you work for him for long enough, you've gotta kind of make a decision. You know, if he's saying, you know,

the economy's never been better, you know, he talks in like absolute declarative sentences, hyperbole, often completely divorced from reality. It's not like you're gonna sit there. and like fact check him, you know, at some point if you're at age, you're sort. of just gonna let it wash over you if you want to, if you wanna stay in his company. And over time, I think that has an effect where they sort. of begin to see the world as Trump sees it. and they end up occupying a bubble as well. So, Right.

Yeah. So Jonathan, I wanna, I wanna take you, and this this goes to both of you. Maggie brought up a great point. It's a point I've brought up a lot. One of the most attractive planks. of the Trump platform to a lot of people my age that lived. through Iraq or Afghanistan, was that we should not. mire ourselves in unwinnable foreign wars, bankrupt the country, saddle future generations with debt,

inflame, anti-American sentiment all over the world, send, you know, destabilise these countries which send floods of refugees. through Europe or, or here. And that in turn destabilises. the political situation in those countries. And we saw that happen in, in Iraq, Afghanistan, in Syria and Libya. All of these were, were, you know, wars of choice. for the United States.

And Trump came on the scene saying, we've wasted a lot. of time, a lot of money, a lot. of people tragically died in those wars. How do we go from that? Take us in, whether it's the Oval Office. or the situation room. Maggie said that it wasn't simply Netanyahu puppeteering. him, that he thought this was a good idea. But you know, in the article. that I read in the New York Times that you guys both write, he has the, the, the head of the joint chiefs telling him,

this is not gonna be easy, that you have ratcliffe the head. of the CIA going. to effect regime Change is going to be incredibly difficult. We don't know that we can do it. I forget who it was, but someone in the room goes, the Israelis are overselling like this regime's not just. gonna collapse. So he's getting all of that information. What is motivating him to do this? Why would he mortgage his political future. on this war?

It's a country of 90 million people. They have a very large military, they have defence guarantees with, you know, with places like Russia and China. He's getting all of this information. What is pushing him in that direction? How do we go from 2016 Middle Eastern Wars bankrupted our. country to 20, you know, 20, 24 we're invading Iran. So I'll, I'll sort of work backwards a little bit.

Maggie and I, as, as part of the reporting for the book, we obviously are asked for an interview with the president. and we ended up getting one at sort. of quite late in our reporting process. And we go in and see him on March 16th. So it's the 17th day of the war with Iran. And there was a very, I thought it was a very revealing moment in that interview. We, we were asking him about presidential power. because he had told Tucker Carlson a year earlier.

that no president has ever been as powerful as me. He made that claim to Tucker Carlson, which obviously a claim that sort of soaked in hubris. And so we ask him about that. and he gets one of his aides, Natalie Harp, to go. and fetch this document for us. And she goes off and gets this printout. and gives each of us a two-page printout. And he, he, he sits there, he wants us to read this document. and he starts reading it. and the document he says is written by a historian.

And the first open opening of the document says, Donald Trump is the most powerful man who's ever existed on. the planet by far. And then it goes on to compare him to what he describes. to us are the top 10. And it's Mao Stalin, Hitler, Alexander the Great, the Caesars Genghis Khan at Vahan Tamerlan, you know, essentially some of the most notorious Yeah, it's a good list Dictators in con, let's be fair to. Trump.

It's a good list. You, you don't, It's a good list. It's solid. It's a solid list. It's a solid list. Yeah. So, so he shows us this list. and there's, there's no moral dimension to it. It, it's about pure, the metric is about power. and the, the analysis at the top is the reason Trump is the most. powerful American president is. because he, he's in charge of the US military. He's in charge of the US economy. There has never been a military as powerful. as the US military obviously in human history, but that Trump is willing to use that power. And it, it really occurred to us in that moment,

but had it occurred to us throughout our reporting, you know, you asked Maggie about. how the second term differs from the first term. I think he, IJ and he made this very clear by Heno. I think he wants to be a sort of Napoleonic type of figure. I think he wants to be a capital G great man of history. And I think that he believes that the way to do that is. to do quote unquote big things on the global stage. And I think the story of going to war.

with Iran was a story of. for sure Netanyahu pushing extremely hard. You know, we have an extraordinary scene in the situation. room in the book War to Trump. and showing this video regime. change in Iran. The CIA said it was nonsense, but I think a big, even bigger part. of Trump's own instincts, he thought this was gonna be a fast said he, his experience of going in authorising Delta force.

to go into Caracas. and snatching a foreign sovereign head of state out. of his bedroom in the middle of the night in his pyjamas. and doing regime change in that country. and installing a client puppet, I think made him feel. that he could control events. around the world when he really can't, you know, you said it, it's a country of more than 90 million people. This is not Caris. And the, the revolutionary regime in Iran is 47 years in the making.

It's, it goes much deeper than the Hugo Chavez remnants. in, in Venezuela. So I think he just had an overestimation, a a, a false belief in the power of the American military. to shape events overseas. Completely ahistorical, there's no example in human history. of regime change achieved through an air campaign. It's never been done. You always need boots on the ground. So you know, anyone who has any passing familiarity. of military history could have told you that.

But he just had a feeling. and we've talked to people who are in the room with him. and he just felt that this was gonna work out. and that this was gonna go well. And the last thing I'll say is, you know, we have a thing in the book where Tucker Carlson. before the war says to Trump, you know, he's questioning him about it. and Trump goes, it's gonna be fine. And Tucker goes, are you sure I'm paraphrasing? And Trump says, yeah. And, and he says, well, how do you know? And Trump says, 'cause it always is. Right, right. I know that. I mean, that's, that's the mindset. Yeah. Maggie, following up on what Jonathan said,

The Israelis have the greatest intelligence service in the. world, arguably one of them. They do tonnes of psychological profiles of people. Do they look at Trump. and they know he wants to be a great man of history? Do, are they using his own. ambitions and his own personality against him. to get him into this war? Can you go into a little bit of his relationship. with Netanyahu. and how exactly, when did Israel start lobbying for him.

to do this privately? Was this, was this when Miriam Delson gave him money? Was this when he was elected? Did it start in term one? When did the clamouring to go to war with Iran begin? So we write in depth on this, Tim, I'm glad you asked about that because it's actually one. of the areas of reporting that was really interesting to us. And that went in a direction. that was somewhat different than we had initially. in anticipated. But I mean, look, he did the against Soleimani in 20,

early 2020 over the objection of some of his advisors. He was very proud of that. He's been talking about it for a long time. He had this falling out with Netanyahu in early 2021. because Netanyahu congratulated. Biden on winning the election. And this became a soar point. And we write about how in the book Netanyahu wanted to, you know, repair the breach with Trump. He goes to see him right. after Butler when Trump has, you know, this wound on his ear. and he's showing Netanyahu the ear.

and not Netanyahu shows up to this meeting at Mar-a-Lago, which is really long this couple hours, and he's got a list, I'm, I'm shortening this anecdote, but he's got a list of like all of the, the leaders who had, or one category of leaders who had congratulated Biden. and showed that actually Netanyahu was, was pretty late by comparison. It wasn't really that quick. Okay, so Trump kind of laughs. and whatever Trump makes clear. to Netanyahu in this meeting according to our reporting, that at some point in a, in a sort of pull aside,

he's gonna be a much harder line president on Iran. in a second term than he would in, than he was in a first. that he knew that Netanyahu wanted him to do certain things. that he didn't do last time. He will do them this time. And the context for that is, number one, Iran had been lobbying physical threats against Trump since. the Soleimani strike against half a dozen or so. Members of his senior team from term one Iranians, according.

to the US government, hacked into the Trump. campaign's emails. And so all of this is like part of the backdrop. for why Trump is, is more pissed off and more receptive. It was cleared in Netanyahu's top advisor Ron Dermer, that there was like an 80% chance. that Trump would join them in a war, in, in a meeting. that he had with Trump after the 2024 election. So you move forward and Trump is incredibly, and this is actually an, an an under-explored piece here,

but Trump was like fascinated by the pager attacks. that the Israeli military did against Hezbollah. and Netanyahu brings him a gold-plated pager. and it's a gift to Trump. And you know, Trump is very good at telling different people different. things depending on the audience. So to some who were anti Netanyahu, he was sort of critical of the gift. But with others he was clearly fascinated by it. and kept talking about the violence. and the violence of the attack. And then you get to June. of last year when they go into this 12 day war,

which is led first by Israel. and they were going ahead regardless, it's a massive success Trump is watching on, it's obviously a much smaller campaign, but Trump is watching Fox News that morning. and it's just being heralded as this like military success. and he wants to be part of that. And so he had great faith in the Israeli military. because of what he was being told, and he was just much more open to this for the variety. of factors that Jonathan mentioned.

and that I'm talking about, which is he personally felt under siege by Iran. and he believed this was going to go quickly. But like Tim, one thing that was. so striking in our reporting, we talked about this in the book, he was. so much more hawkish on Iran than most of his own team. And I remember as we were reporting this out, so many. of his own team believing like late last year, right. before New Year's, like Netanyahu is gonna come. and he's gonna come and ask us to do more. and the president's just not having it. And that is so not how this played out.

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Right? So Jonathan, let me, let me ask you, you know, Tucker Carlson, who's incredibly close with Trump. for a long time, campaigned with him was probably one. of his biggest advocates in the media, if not his biggest advocate in the media has publicly broken. with Trump over the Iran war over Epstein. Tucker has recently come out. and said he would no longer support the Republican.

party over this. Tucker has floated the idea on his show that, that we didn't, we don't fully understand. And even to me it is a bit confusing. We don't know much about Thomas Matthew Crooks, we don't know much about the Butler assassination. There are people that believe that there are elements to it. that may have been staged, may have been faked. We, you know, it's just very interesting that. after that assassination attempt Trump.

and Netanyahu of this meeting, and Trump goes, I'm gonna be more hawkish on Iran. Tucker has floated the idea without directly, but I think he's kind of implied it, that Trump is afraid. for his life and that for whatever reason, after that assassination attempt, he became more amenable. to certain ideas. And I think Tucker strongly implied that either Israel was. behind the attempt or Israel maybe knew about it.

or whatever the situation may be. I mean, you're aware of that. Obviously both of you're aware of that. It's Tucker Carlson is, is a massive figure in the party. What, what is your response to something like that, whether it's that direct accusation. or like what about Trump changed. after that assassination, attempted anything change? Was he more concerned with his own mortality? Why did the President of Israel fly to him directly. after the assassination? Like what, explain to me the dynamics of that aftermath.

Right. I don't see, IF firstly, I haven't seen any evidence to support what. what Tucker is saying on that. And I personally don't agree with it. I do think that the assassination attempt made Trump more. fearful for his life. There's no question about that. I don't think there was any, I don't see any evidence that there was any. Israeli connection to any of that. But we write in the, in the book that Trump, he's not really travelling as much domestically anymore.

And there's, there's a lot of sort of fear about that. And when you talk about the closed off ecosystem, I just don't think you can underline that enough as, as a like a factor in all of this. When you are hearing primarily from people like Mark Levin. and Hannity and, and there's an echo chamber around you. that is very hawkish against Iran. and they're telling you, you can be a figure of destiny, you're gonna be a great president, you know, you're at the Mar-a-Lago patio. I think that's been a much bigger factor.

And you know, in term one, Trump was travelling out. around the country a fair bit. He was, he had Twitter, he was scrolling Twitter, he was being exposed to different ideas. And I just, again, you never know what you'd ever know, but I haven't seen any reporting that links those events. and, and that makes me think. that there's something there with respect to Israel. Maggie, do you think Trump's demeanour changed? He seemed very, a little bit more reserved in the. Republican national convention. He's sitting there, he has a bandage on his ear.

He does seem, you know, a slightly more reflective, I've heard from people that know him pretty well. that he never really thinks about mortality. Do you think that assassination temp, and I'll also ask you Maggie, about when Charlie Kirk lost his life, how did these events affect Trump in your estimation. and change him as a, as a person, as a leader? So I I, I think I you were saying, people say that.

he doesn't reflect on his own mortality. That's actually not our experience. Okay. At all. And in, and in fact it's, it's, it's, it's a little difference for starting with one event, Tim, that predates Butler, which was actually a few events. One was when his first wife Ivana died, which was. during the four years that he was out of office. He was really, really shaken by that. for whatever reason, obviously that was a complicated. marriage, divorce. Yeah. What have you. But, but that was the first time.

that somebody really, really close. to him in a long time had died. So that was one, his sister died Maryanne. during the campaign also, and that, that had a sort of a different effect on him. But he is thinking about mortality that absolutely, according to our reporting, again, can't get into his mind, whatever, but just in the things he is saying to people. and had been saying it absolutely did play out for him. and was something that he was thinking about.

He also knows that, like, I mean, one of the reasons. that it wasn't totally clear that he was gonna run again was. because he was talking to people about, in 2021, about how old he was. And he only had like six. or eight years left, potentially, you know, to enjoy a great, I mean that's, I'm, I'm possibly forgetting the exact number, but he was clear that it's not like he's 50, right? And so he had a limited amount of time to enjoy life. And that if he ran again, this might be the rest of it. And obviously, you know, he ran. But yeah, I do think that he thinks about his own mortality.

I do think that, that that convention was a, a strange, muted version of him, at least for a while. And then he started giving his speech. And I think that the crowd seemed bored. And so he was doing, he started talking more like himself. But I think that, I think that death. and physicality is something that he does think about. And as Jonathan said, according to our reporting, his concerns about safety are indeed why he. is not travelling as much.

Now, he also doesn't believe he has to. He like, and that goes to the whole, not compar hearing. about domestic politics that much. But if he doesn't, if he doesn't have. to, he is not gonna do it. Jonathan, tell me about, about I think it's. Hard To. Over, Yeah, Sorry Tim. I was just. Gonna say Tim, To, To your question. Sorry. No, go on. Go on. No, I was just gonna say. to your question about Charlie Kirk, I, I, I think it had a really profound effect. I agree on, on the, I circle like, and we have reporting the book. I mean, the way Trump learned about the shooting. of Charlie Cook, his son Barron called him,

Right? He was in the Oval Office. and he gets a call from his son Barron. And, and Barron was like very upset. You know, he, he was a big fan of, of Charlie Cook's. Charlie Cook was almost a family member. to everyone in the West Wing. And like I knew Charlie really well. I mean, I talked to Charlie the day before he died. He was his loss. You know, there was all this stuff written at the time, and I think it was written with good intentions,

but I think it was kind of bullshit, which was his, you know, his impact will be greater in death than it is in. life and, and blah blah. It's sort of a, a glib way of saying it's really not true. Charlie, the thing about Charlie Kirk was he was sort. of a unique, his abilities were kind. of unique in the Republican party, A as an, as a political organiser, as someone who had Trump's ear, but was willing to kind of push him on certain issues. He was very against the Iran war. There's been all this stuff written.

after he died about, oh no, Charlie was, you know, very pro net and Yahoo. That's just not true. It's absolutely not true, especially in the last year of his life. He became much more sceptical of Israel, much more. I mean, he was aggressively arguing against going. to war with Iran. So he was a, an important voice. He was a hugely important political organiser. He had a big media presence as well. And it was this sort of connective tissue to a younger part.

You talked to him about like your age and your listeners. and whatever, like Charlie Kirk was arguably more in tune. with that group of people than anyone in. Trump's close orbit. And so I think that loss had a really, a profound effect on Trump's circle. And it just removed a person. who I think was an important voice in Trump's ear. as a counterbalance to some. of the more hawkish voices that he hears from. How does this administration come into the White House.

crusading for more transparency, talking about declassifying documents related. to Jeffrey Epstein Cash Patel, the FBI director builds a career doing this, right? Dan Bonino, as a, as a podcaster, does the same thing. Trump was always a little bit more lukewarm on that idea. Take us into that, that scandal. that erupts over the administration's refusal to.

declassify those documents in the beginning, and then to also kind of gaslight their own supporters. by saying nothing happened. Epstein didn't do anything. There was no organised trafficking of women, underage women take, take us into that. because that was, from my estimation, the beginning. of the end of the, the MAGA movement.

as a cultural force. Because people really started to see, you know, it's the famous line, meet the old boss, I mean, meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Take us into that, if you can. Yeah, I can take that one. So what you just said, I was nodding as you were talking. 'cause I was thinking about how at least, even if it, maybe it isn't the end of MAGA as a, as a cultural movement, but, and force the way it had been.

But certainly in our reporting, that was really the turning point when Trump just starts. to lose political altitude with his own supporters. because he, you know, they were seeing him say something very different than. what he had said before, just like the Iran war. But on this one, you know, Trump's got key figures in his government, top officials. who you just named, who had been talking about releasing the. files, that there was a client list that it needed. to be put out, a client list of predators.

That there, this was a, a cabal that, that people had gone un prosecuted for years. And, and clearly by the way, just as an aside, this was a multi administration failure in terms of dealing. with Jeffrey Epstein after he got a sweetheart deal in, in, in 2008 and with Ghislaine Maxwell. But Trump himself was never actually that vocal about it. If you look at what he was saying, it was sort of half-hearted. Yeah, I'd be okay with it. So in early February,

Well, even, even more than that, Maggie, like I interviewed Trump on, on for, Oh, I forgot about that. We have, we used to have an HBO show when I was at Axios. Yeah. And I interviewed him in 2020, and Trump was like saying about Ghislaine Maxwell, wait, I wish her well wish, wish her well, I wish her well. And I used to be, I interviewed, I said, why? She's a, you know, she's been charged. with child sex trafficking. Why would you wish her well? And he was like, oh, I wish anyone, it was clearly something he, like, he felt very uncomfortable about it. And when he was asked about releasing the Epstein files.

during the campaign, he was like, yeah, I'd have no problem with that. But you could tell he just, he wasn't that into it. But I think that the Patel, I mean, Patel was. so bombastic about it. I mean, during the campaign, he was like, put on your big boy pants, FBI, you know, released the tell us who the paedophiles are. Yeah. And it was this amazing situation where like, you know, you released the demons. and the demons come back to get you. It's like, oh, suddenly you are in charge of the FBI. Exactly. And you know, presumably if someone's gonna put their big boy pants.

on, that's you. So he found himself in this extremely awkward position. where all the demands that he'd made yes, were now demands. that, you know, he ought to fulfil. But, you know, to be slightly fair to, to cash. the problem, one of the biggest problems was the. president himself. Correct. Just didn't do he want the whole thing to disappear. and didn't want to go down that path. So even if, you know, Patel was interested in doing that, it wasn't really a road that he could walk down,

Maggie, why did he want it to pat disappear? Why would the president want to disappear? I, without being able to know Exactly. I mean, to be clear, Tim, like in the reporting that we did, we didn't learn anything. that would change anyone's understanding of. what happened in terms of Epstein's crimes, Maxwell's crimes, anything about Trump. We were really focused on the administration's reactions. But what is known is that Trump had been close friends. with Jeffrey Epstein for years.

and years and years and years. And he tells this story about, you know, how they had a falling out. and the exact reasons why have changed. They, they clearly did at some point, there's, he has been trying to distance himself from Epstein. for quite some time. There are many, many pictures of him and Epstein together. Some of those were in the files that were ultimately. released, whether it was that reason, whether it was just. that he didn't wanna deal with it, whether it was just. that he underestimated his own base, his interest in this,

and he wouldn't be alone in that. There were top officials in the White House political. officials who did too. They thought this was a, a passing cloud. Susie Wiles being chief chief. Among them, right. Susie Wiles completely was taken by storm by this. James Blair, Susie Wiles, a couple of other people. And what they, we write in the book is that, you know, they had polling from Tony Fabrizio to support that idea. that this was a very limited group of people. who were interested in this. And Dan Bonino in our reporting really was the one trying.

to do something of a lapel grab. and say, you do not understand. This is not an online story. And Vance. So then you and Vance, and then you get into a situation. Yes, Vance was actually the most vocal. inside the White House bar none. And don't forget Tim, like, you know, so much blame was put on Pam Bondy for giving that interview. where she was like, it's sitting on my desk, which seemed. to confirm there was a client. list when she got asked about it. And then she shows up at the White House with these binders,

which were to give influencers. And her staff, you know, got them from the FBI, according to. what people close to her said they anticipated there would. be new information in them. There was almost nothing new in them. But most importantly, they had not been looked at. for whether Trump's name would be in them. And so they get to the White House, and a White House aide takes the binder and opens it up, and there's Trump's name right there. And it's stuff that had been out already. It was like travel logs and stuff like that. Right. But that was the beginning of how this all came.

to end up in a series of situation room meetings. that we write about where yes, some people did have concerns about the victims, but those specific meetings were almost exclusively about. how to handle a PR crisis around a president. who didn't want any of this out. This questions for both of you. Have you seen any evidence. to the OR, or, or whether it's circumstantial. or not, do you believe that Jeffrey Epstein was affiliated. with either our intelligence service.

or a foreign intelligence service? And is that one of the reasons. that we have not seen the rest of the documents. or that it has, as Maggie said, it's a multi administration failure. Is it because at, at some level, Jeffrey Epstein. and his operation were being protected? I haven't seen, I haven't seen any evidence of that, but, but he, his network was, I mean, extraordinary. And you've seen that in, in the documents. He's a very unusual network,

but we've, we've not seen anything that, you know, we would need ironclad evidence to be able to say that. Yeah, you know, he had some affiliation. with an intelligence network. and we just haven't seen evidence. I haven't seen evidence that makes no, would make me feel confident saying that at all. Ethos is so important right now, because I'm telling you right now, everybody wants insurance. Take 10 minutes to get covered today. Friends of mine are using this. I have used it.

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as the vice president because Tucker Carlson tells Trump, if you pick Marco Rubio forces within the government. who disagree with your policies will just kill you. because they know Marco Rubio is going to be able. to carry out their plans. You have to pick JD Vance. JD Vance is more of an isolationist, you know, he's, you know, more of a nationalist. They would not kill you to get Vance.

This is, you know, like a. well-publicized thing. I I know that you. Yeah, I reported it. You reported it. I literally reported that conversation. Yeah. Yeah, Tucker said that to. That's right. Absolutely. Whether you reported it or I reported it, who knows? Really? But I No, I I get it, I get it. But no, so, so Vance comes in, Don Jr loves JD Vance. Tucker Carlson loves JD Vance, you know, so. Musks loves him. Musks JD Vance. Yes. Yeah. What is the dynamic between JD Vance.

and the president of the United States? Is he respected? How does this, how does this play out? JD Vance comes on as this nationalist guy, then what happens? So I think it's a very interesting relationship. because JD Vance actually believes in these policies. to a much deeper extent than, than Trump does, whether it be. anti intervention, you know, not going to the wars.

that you were talking about, whether it be he, he's more hardcore on immigration for sure. Much more aligned with like a Stephen Miller on immigration. And we get into that in a book. Trump thinks he's very smart. One of the main reasons he picked him, besides all the advocates that he had, Charlie Kirk was. by the way, another advocate, big advocate for, for JD Vance, was that he was good on tv. Trump thinks he's smart. He often talks about how impressive it is. that he got into Yale without having a rich daddy. That's what Trump says, thinks he's handsome. You know, Trump is very much a ca he casts people.

for certain roles, but the fact. that Vance has been really the only one at the senior level. who has vocally opposed going to war with Iran. and being sceptical of the big military adventures. that Trump has taken, that has cost him a bit with Trump. It's irritated Trump at different times. And others who had sceptical views about this effort to go.

to war with Iran, didn't really stick their necks out. in the same way that Vance did. Like Rubio was sceptical, not as sceptical as Vance, but didn't really make a ca any type of case against going. to war with Iran that we could observe in our reporting. So I think it cost him a little bit. The other element of that relationship is Trump just enjoys. messing with them. Totally. Yeah. And we have a scene in our book. where he has Rupert Murdoch over. for dinner at the White House.

And it's a pretty astonishing moment. You know, it's, it's like a few months. after Murdoch in the, well the Wall Street Journal published the story about Trump. writing a birthday card to Epstein, you know, the, in the shape of a nude woman, whatever Trump says he's gonna sue him. But anyway, they, they have this sort of peace dinner. in the blue room at the White House, and they're at the table, Murdoch's there, and Vance. and Rubio are both there at the table. And Trump says, you know,

I like them both, they're both great. Rupert, what do you think of jd? And Murdoch says, you know, JD has the potential. to be great and, and Vance is like, you know, it's awkward, but Vance like, oh gee, thanks Rupert. You know, knowing full well. that Murdoch had done whatever he could. to stop Vance from being vice president. And then Trump says to Murdoch, and what do you think of Rubio? And without missing a beat, Murdoch says, Marco's brilliant. So I think what one of the issues that Vance is going.

to have potentially is a lot of the donor class, a lot. of the people that Trump hears from at Mar-a-Lago, a lot. of the more hawkish voices. that he hears from on Iran are very anti Vance. And I still think based on our reporting, we don't like speculating. I still think Vance is the most likely person. to be the candidate. There's no sign that Rubio is building any kind. of operation to challenge him. Rubio has told Vance.

and said publicly that he'll support his bid. So I still think he's gonna end up being the nominee, but I think the one thing we could probably say. with some level of confidence is. that Trump is not gonna make it easy for him. Yeah, Right. Final question. I know that you both have to go, and I appreciate the time. What revelation do you think, and, and maybe there is one, there might be many that is, that explains right now the future of our, what our relationship with Israel is going.

to be in the Democratic party. and in the Republican party, one. of the biggest tension points is, has been the war in Gaza, the war in Iran. Now the war in Southern Lebanon. It has put a strain on the US Israeli relationship. Like no time I have ever remembered. I'm 41. And at no time in my life have I seen anything like this. Trump had said, you know, people are starting to hate Israel. This was a quote he said,

his supporters were starting to hate Israel. You see specifically among young people. But now that has grown with everybody. How does our relationship. with Israel change because of this? Is there, are they cognizant of that in the administration? That this has been a, a very, you know, shifting thing for a lot of people, that they are looking at this relationship as saying. it's an unhealthy relationship. And are, are, are, is that being addressed on any level?

Is Trump seems to be aware of that? What is his relationship with Netanyahu like right now? I, I'll talk briefly and then. Jonathan should, should take it. And in brief, the things. that I was just thinking about when you were saying that is. that most of Trump's advisors, and again this goes back to the point. that he's much more hawkish on Iran, for instance, than most of his team. They, they are looking at what has happened. They are looking at the fact.

that this MOU has become the paddle they're trying. to get out of the creek with, but kind of slow going. You know, the oil prices are coming down, but they know that they're running out of time, especially before the midterms. Most people in Trump's world are way more concerned about. the future of the MAGA coalition than, than he is. Trump said something interesting. that I was thinking about Tim. before when you were talking to us, when we were in the Oval Office, which was, we were asking him about Netanyahu as a wartime partner.

and how has that been given the ups. and downs in their relationship. We reported in the book that Trump had called Netanyahu a. conman at one point, which is like one. of the biggest insults in Trump's lexicon. And he was speaking very favourably of Netanyahu. And then he said, and I'm paraphrasing a bit, but it was, he's not afraid of war. And that actually speaks to Trump's psychology as much. as anything, but also spoke to. what he found appealing about Netanyahu, which was a willingness to do this. Their relationship right now is not great, but it's not great because Trump is finding himself in a.

quagmire that it's harder for him to admit. that he went into pretty willingly. But Jonathan May have a smarter thought on that than I do. I think the asterisk. and the nuance is yeah, like Trump is, we have reporting in the book where, you know, he had a phone call Bibe Netanyahu last September. where he is like, the Jews are sick of you. Even the two Jews on this call, it was Jared Kushner and Steve Woff. They're sick of you, you know, berating. He has these eruptions at Netanyahu, but he really hasn't, except for rare exceptions,

he really hasn't used his leverage. to actually change Netanyahu's bi. He hasn't cut off the supply of weapons to Israel. or done any of the things that, you know, the biggest sceptics of Israel on the democratic side, some on the Republican side are pushing for, I think the future of the relationship is very uncertain. The Usis Israeli relationship. Yes. Because what comes after Trump, it's hard. to imagine it's a more pro-Israel direction when you have. public opinion doing what it is. When you have younger Republican voters, much more anti-Israel,

I still think the Congressional Republican party is, you know, pro-Israel. But the younger, newer members coming through, you can see. where the trend line is heading. And if JD Vance is the Republican nominee in 2028, the Democrat is certain to be, you know, very sceptical of Israel. So then you may have a matchup of two Israel sceptics. And I think the Israelis understand that. You can see what they're doing.

Like Netanyahu said, he wants to bring down the amount. of US aid, you're seeing some evidence that they're trying. to increase their relationship with India. and understanding that they might need. to start finding other friends in the world. Because I don't think with public opinion being where it is, that this relationship at the moment anyway has a very rosy. picture ahead. Interesting. Well, the book is regime change. Can anyone get it anywhere?

I mean, this thing sold out everywhere Can, how. Do they get it? They're still in bookstores and they're restocking fast on, there's ebook, there's, there's audio. Audio. They're doing a big reprint. They're doing a huge reprint. And so it is be vaccine. There's some Puppies, You Can find. Them Sometimes. Everybody's reading the book. and just as you guys leave, you know, the podcasters a lot is made of podcasters and, and the impact they had in the election. or the audiences they have. You guys are traditional mainstream media journalists who,

you know, obviously work at the New York Times. Do you fear being replaced by people like me? Tim? You do what you do much. better than we ever could, mate. But I think I agree. I don't think you would wanna replace us, mate. We, we, our jobs are pretty unglamorous and Yes, and I don't think you'd wanna be doing what we are doing. So look in on a serious note though, like, I often think about this, there's this sort of, you know, legacy media is almost this like dirty word.

and I understand that that's fine. But for us, the kind of reporting. that we do actually require, you need a big institution behind you. Yes. 'cause often, you know, we have published a lot. of information recently. You talk about the, the supply of American weapons, which we've spent down in Iran. We have. Had, we have nations left. You're telling us we have. No, it, it's really very limited. Very limited. It's really disastrous. Well, that's not good. I have long the long range missiles and stuff, but the point being sources have taken really on a serious.

note, they've taken really big risks. to give us that information. Publish it. Yeah. And we like the infrastructure. of the New York Times and having lawyers to defend us, you know, if the president tries to sue us, leak investigations, the technology security apparatus. Not, not to mention the platform like Maggie. and I actually couldn't do the type of reporting we do. as free agents on Substack. That's not to denigrate people on Substack. In fact, I subscribe to a bunch of them. But the type of reporting we do, we actually need a big institution around us.

That's right. So we're grateful for it, honestly. Well, well, Very. Good. We're, we're, we're, we're, we're hot. and cold here on the New York Times. We like them. Sometimes we don't like them other times. That's just the way it is. We. Think we can live with that mate. Can live with that. You can live with that. Yeah. You guys are great. Thank you for coming on. Thanks, Tim. The book is Regime Change, but the reality is me, Joe Rogan, and Barry Wires. You're the only journalist left in America. Sorry. Thank you both and we appreciate it. God bless.

Good luck with the book. Thanks, Tim. Tim, Tim. Appreciate it. See you. Bye.