#282 - Lex Fridman | The Tim Dillon Show

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Tim. Dillon show. My voice is slightly. uh. it's suffering right now. Um. we are here with Lex Fridman, who is an. incredibly intelligent podcaster, researcher. He has a podcast that has. probably right now there's I don't know. that you can find a podcast with better. guests than yours. If you look at your. ability to get. top-tier people in every field,

predominantly the things you're. interested in, robotics, technology, science, physics, but you get everybody. I mean, you've had Richard Dawkins, you. just had Elon Musk. How do you get the. top people. in those fields, and they love coming on. and talking to you? Yeah, it's an interesting question. I. think. if there's one universal thing that I've. noticed is um.

somebody close to those folks. is just a fan of the podcast. Right. So, it's like momentum that keeps going. And. uh often times it's family members. where they say, you know, "Dad or mom or. whatever, this guy's. Yeah. Uh this guy's all about love and is kind. of an idiot and is fun to talk to, so.". And then it just kind of builds like. that. With Elon I a few folks were fans. of the lectures I was giving at MIT. And. so, it's like somebody always recommends.

it to them. Right. And then some of it. is also just networking, like I just. know a lot of people in the tech space. and Yeah. it's it's funny. For some of these busy folks. it's like somebody close to them. Somebody they trust, somebody they like. will say, "Hey, you should do this kind. of podcast." And that cuz you find a lot. of really busy people don't. they're very. uh they don't know anything about. podcasts. Yeah, and they're wary of it, right? They're wary of sitting down with.

somebody they may not know and where. that'll go and what they'll end up. saying, especially a lot of people that. are in positions of power. Usually they're you know, I spent time. with the CEO of NBC once for a day. Um they were doing a sketch, an internal sketch to be played at their. board meeting, and they hired me as a. comedic actor to play a cab driver. uh in the sketch. Yeah. And the whole sketch was going to. be the CEO of of NBC Universal, who's no.

longer the CEO, but he was, Steve. something or other. He was going to. roast the. uh board, the people, you know, his. people. He was going to roast them in a. playful, fun way, and I was going to be. the cab driver, and they spent tens of. thousands of dollars, maybe more. Um the. you know, the cab was on a dolly, it was. being carted around New York. Now, what. amazed me about spending like a few. hours with him was how tightly. structured his entire life is.

Yeah. How many he had a lawyer with him. at all times, he had a personal. assistant with him at all times. NBC. Universal had an attorney there. The. script, which was such a simple script, had gone through 10 or 15 rewrites and. redrafts. Um. and he was a very intelligent guy, and. his time had such a premium, Yeah. it had such value that to say to anybody. in that space, "Come and spend 2 hours.

with me and just let it fly." Like I. remember the first thing I saw when I uh. the first thing I said when I saw him, he walked out and he goes, "You're the. cab driver?" And I said, "Yep, last. white cab driver in New York." And he. went, "Whoa, whoa, that's not in the. script, right?". Yeah. I said, "No, no, no, no." He goes, "Okay, that's it." And he's looking at. like his lawyers and his people, he's. like, "Wait a minute, we're not going to. say that, right?". So, very interesting that you you you. have these people that come on and and. they they feel comfortable enough with. you to just and speak.

Everything you described with the. situation you were in. Yeah. to me is toxic for a great. conversation. So, 100%. I'm becoming So, one of the the deeper. question here is is how do you talk to. these people for two, three, four hours? And how do you make sure that nobody. else is allowed in the room? Yeah. Like I have to vet anyone who's allowed. So, no marketing people, no people that. have a notebook and they're taking notes. Right. about the things you're not supposed to. say, where they look over, is that.

appropriate? None of those people. Sometimes it's to have. uh just friends who just make you so you. can look over them and laugh. Yeah. like Ben's here, you can look over. and laugh, that's great. But I at you. maybe in the first like few dozen. conversations, I was okay with like. people being present, but now I'm like. hardcore. uh you start at 3 hours. It has to be 3. hours. Yeah. It's it's a Joe Rogan inspired that you. could do long-form conversations with. these folks. And then say like the it's.

polite, of course, and respectful, but. saying I have different ways of saying. it, but like. I feel most comfortable creatively. Right. with just us two in the room. Absolutely. And and uh Get out, no. Get. Well, yeah, there's and then there's. uncomfortable like. pressure. Yeah. of saying like, "I know what the. hell I'm doing." And that those that. exact conversation is. come up, which is ultimately you have to. trust me that I know what the hell I'm. doing, and then I would bring out the best in.

this person. What's interesting about. you, we talked about a little bit before. uh we started is that you you don't own. real estate. You don't own a property, you rent. You like the freedom of that. Yes. And. By the way, to Sorry to interrupt, your. conversation with Joe about digital real. estate was quite epic. think it I think it was interesting. Yeah. And I think a lot of people. responded to it. Yeah, you Right now, real life, and people tell me all the. time, they go, "Are you kidding or are. you serious?" And I go,

"Real life right now is living on that. line.". Yeah. The things that are real sound like. comedy. Yeah. So, I'm talking to Joe, and I'm being. funny because that's what I try to do, but I'm also bringing up real, actual trends that are happening. And. people I think are so, you know, removed from that world that.

it all sounds like comedy. And a lot of. it is very funny, but it's actually a real. thing that is happening. But you. what's interesting about you is the. concept of ownership in the real world, you view as kind of a lack of freedom, you were saying. Yeah. I I think. I value. freedom. to make big leaps into the unknown. as exceptionally important. So, I also.

value love and monogamy and. relationships, all those kinds of. things. Right. Those put a limit on for a lot of. people those put a limit on freedom. Right. I don't see it that way. So, like I. think people use that as an excuse in. the same way house ownership people. often use as an excuse. to get complacent, Yeah. to to limit. themselves. So, I I don't think a house. I don't think ownership in itself is a. limit on your freedom, but people get. comfortable, they get soft, it becomes a. limitation. Cuz I want to be able to.

tomorrow. say, you know, "I'm going to start a. company and I'm not going to do it in. Austin. I'm going to do it in Kansas. City. I'm going to do it in San. Francisco and move. uh walk away. Yeah. Cool guys don't look. back at explosions. Just walk away. Just. walk away. And that that something about. me, I mean, I don't want to generalize, but for me, I probably won't do that, but the. freedom to do that allows you to think. big, to to take leaps into uh the.

unknown in a way that materializes like. the best version of yourself. I I mean, I I fully agree As a person. who bought a house. Well, I I did I did. buy a house in Austin. I think that part. of what I. like is problems. Yes. Problems are. essential for my business. Um. What's your business, exactly? Uh. uh it's a great question. Um. I think it it it's um.

you know, in in in its very simplest. form, it's um. making people happy. Right? Yeah. That's like the simplest way to say it. And if there are no problems, there's. never going to be a reason to make. anyone happy. That's why utopians hate. comedy, because they think you can. create a world in which there will be no. pain. Yeah. So, if there is no pain, there's no reason to alleviate that pain. through comedy. But I'm someone who. realizes that no matter how great you.

make the world, you're going to have. pain. You're going to have problems. So, one of the reasons that I kind of. like entanglements, problems, things. like that, is because I see a lot of. opportunities in them to um. you know, release that valve of pressure. comedically. So, you lean into the chaos. because from the chaos comes a lot of. problems, and then you can I think. understand the human condition by. analyzing the problem. of it. I also think I.

I have to do things to know what they. are. And part of my job is to hopefully. make those things funny. So, by by owning a house, I've I've. owned houses that I I mean, I owned one. house that I lost. I'm very open about. that during the mortgage crisis, right? So, I went through that. And now I. bought a house very responsibly. But. when you buy a house very responsibly, it's still very much, you know, a. um weight. It's a weight.

on you. You feel that weight, you know? And but there's value, I think, to. weighing yourself down sometimes. Yes. Because then you understand what other. people are going through. When I'm in a. comedy club or a theater, I'm looking. out in the audience and I'm going, "All. of these people have that weight. They. have more than that. They have kids. They have, you know, jobs. They have, uh. family members they support. They have. lot lots of weight." So, to understand.

that and to relate to that, for me, I. think there's a value to it, but I also. agree with you and completely understand. that it slows you down. Houses are they slow you down. Families, even though they're amazing and. valuable, can have that effect as well. And it's. well worth it to be slowed. Certain. times slowing down, I think, is worth. it. But you also have to be honest with. yourself that the slowing down is often. artificial. Like it's in your it's in.

your mind. Not to be stoic for for a. second, but. yeah. Like there's no reason you can't. sell the house. Well, so. Absolutely. Some of it is you want to. make sure you get a house you can. actually afford. Yes. All those kinds of. things. But and but even still, people. talk about like FU money. and they they use the lack of money. or insufficient amount of money as an. excuse to stay in the job they don't. like, stay in the life they don't like, stay in the marriage they don't like, stay in the house they don't like. When.

in reality, you could I think it's an. excuse. Like most people can take the. bold action. It's it's a huge risk, but. take a leap into the unknown, get rid of. the house. and go pursue a job that you actually. love. And then everything else will. will just uh. Everything How do you think everybody. loves something? Yes. is See, this is a. no no fundamental disagreement that we. have. They have the capacity to discover. something they love. Yes.

So, if. a different thing. But so, if you think. that there's nothing in this world you. love outside of chemical depression. So, if you. if you if there's just a chemistry that. makes you incapable of seeing some. aspect of beauty in the world, I think. everybody could discover it. And it's a. little flame that's in everybody that. you just. uh. Haven't you ever met stupid people? I think part of what I speak to you, I. speak to a guy who's because he's very. smart, has had the privilege of speaking.

to some very, very intelligent people. But have you ever spoken to someone who. was not that smart? And I don't mean a. bad person. I don't mean a a malevolent human being. in any way. I mean someone who's not. complex. They're a simple Yeah. person. I love So, let me just make clear. that I don't like the quote-unquote. intelligent people or the elite people. or the rich people. I like simple. people. Simple people. I. I see myself as a You say I'm a But.

you're not. But this is when this is. what I'm going to This is the You've got. a robot on your floor. You interviewed. the richest man in the world yesterday. And I'm watching. when we have to stop. You're wearing a. suit. It's it's it's 12. I mean, Rogan. thinks he's a simple man, too. He owns. the Colorado River. Can we stop? This is. when, as a comedian, I have to point out. how insane this sounds to everyone. You're a brilliant guy. You give. lectures at MIT. You're just not a. simple person. I was in Buc-ee's. yesterday. You know what Buc-ee's is? It's a Walmart competitor. And and.

Buc-ee's a beaver. And and and it's a. big Walmart and people go into it and. they buy everything they need and they. have Buc-ee's nuggets. And they're like. corn pops, a cereal. They're not good. for you. They're like potato chips, essentially. They're like, you know, this highly processed sugar food and. they're so popular. People go to. Buc-ee's and they buy the nuggets and. they eat the Buc-ee's nuggets on their. couch. Yeah. Don't you understand that. those people fundamentally have some. differences with you?

No, I mean Okay. Okay. don't think so. I think they are more. like they they appreciate life more. actually than the the. the people who are in this rat race of. like try So, the quote-unquote smart. people are the people who are climbing. some kind of Yes. treat like career thing. to some of those people, "Do what you. love," they might say, "I'm doing what I. love. I love the Buc-ee's nuggets and I. love my couch.". First of all, that yes. If they Well,

okay. So, I wanted to be a psychiatrist. when I was growing up. So, I would have. to have. like several months' worth of sessions. with them to discuss is it truly what. they love. I think on session two, you would realize that you're kind of. going up against a brick wall. No, I. don't think so. Not everybody is meant to live this. fully um. you know, like examined life. Many. people are quite happy. It doesn't have to be examined. You. don't have to be You don't have to. read philosophical literature. It can.

just be honest with yourself. Like. self-reflect Yes. in a simple way about. what the hell do you love about life? Well, that's that's fair and I'm with. you on that. Yeah. I'm with you on that. What I think is what we've done as a. society, in my estimation. This is one. of our fundamental disagreements. We. agree on many things. um You mean you and I? I think we agree. on a lot. Yes. But then there's things we disagree. on. Like uh such as? Well, I think. Love?

No, love is important and essential. I. have to talk to you about relationships. We'll do We'll do that in a second, but. one of the things where me and you have. a a disagreement is. this very vague and general advice that. we give to people. We tell them your. life is not valid or meaningful unless. you have this dream. that you or this deep love of something. that you have to pursue and you have to. be on this journey. And to me, I know.

people that derive a lot of happiness. from the greatest. uh simplicities in their life. um. whether that might be a you know, and. I'm not saying family is simple, but it. might be just having a family. It might. be just being sober. It might be just having enough money to. pay the rent. So, to me, to tell everybody that. there's a um that they have to love. something. in a way that motivates them or inspires.

them. to chase it or follow it. I think it's a. very. it's a very it's incomplete Yeah. as. advice. Yeah, maybe like if there's a. goal they have to reach for, you have to. improve like New Year's resolution style. goal. Sure. Yeah, no. I uh. I I was. Like, you know, these great guys, these. David Goggins and all these people. running backwards on a mountain. Yes. Totally get it, right? I mean, that's. great.

Uh who is that for? Like I know it's for. people. like the the people that run up the hill. are going to run up the hill. The people that aren't going to run up. the hill aren't. Now, sometimes the. people that aren't running up the hill. will decide to run up the hill. For me, the positive aspect of David Goggins is. it wakes you up to consider. do I want to be a David Goggins in this. world or do I want to be something else? Like it just it's just like shakes you. up. Like looking at weirdness. Like.

That's a good point. Like just looking at something that's. completely out of the ordinary. I mean, you could just look at any kind of weird. video, I suppose, of a human being doing. anything weird. And then it reminds you, "Wait a minute. So, people can are. capable of this. So, maybe I'm capable of a lot of stuff. What am I actually interested in?" I was. just having a conversation with somebody. um. and. older woman. I've been practicing. Russian. I've been speaking Russian with. with. with folks. What's interesting about you is they.

hired you at the FSB without even. speaking Russian. Yeah, kind. They just let you. Yeah. That's odd. They just said, "You'll figure it out.". Yeah, yeah. They they have a whole. program to get you up to speed. Fair enough. So, I was talking to her. and she said the thing that brings her. happiness. is uh. like. this is going to sound a little bit. strange, but sort of making dinner for. her family, putting everybody to bed. She has three. kids. Like her husband uh is like waiting for. her in bed or he might be already.

sleeping. And just sitting there at the. kitchen table. uh oh, also making breakfast and lunch. for the next day for the kids. And just. everything is done. Everything is clean. Everything is perfect. And she's just. sitting at at the kitchen table and. realizing, "This is happiness." Right. And that to me was like, "Yeah, that's. another way of happiness." And I I'm the. same way. To me, like. I mean, one form of happiness is just being. pretty good. at whatever I take on. So, like.

I don't know, organizing any kind of. stuff. I love organizing. You couldn't. tell it by this place, but like I have. an OCD nature and it makes me feel good. to. to organize stuff. Like spreadsheets or. data and all those kinds of things. I could you know, people talk [ __ ] about. uh desk, you know, office work. But I. would love that. I would love to be an. Excel person where I just organize. Or. you know what? Like a somebody's. assistant where I like schedule stuff. I.

love scheduling things. that. Yeah, I love it. I would yeah. talking about love earlier. And you were. saying it's uh. What What are your thoughts on that as a. organizing principle of. people's lives? And when you see people in. relationships, it's very interesting to me. I know. people that I think are genuinely in. love. Like I think Ben and his wife are. genuinely in love. But I also see other. relationships.

that are business arrangements. And they're also successful. Truly. So Yeah, so that. interesting. Yeah, partnerships. That's right. different from love. So. love to So broadly, first of all, love. to me is much bigger than romantic love. So. So you have to put friendship like ever. since I was young. I was I had a longing for other human. beings and that connection you have. You. You mentioned like uh. sort of uh you know, happiness is is.

contrasted to the. the suffering or whatever the hardship. that people going through and that's. kind of your job. Put yourself in a. place of hardship so you can make people. happy. But I I always saw that there's. just uh. unfairness and cruelty and all that kind. of stuff in the world and you could just. huddle like penguins together. uh amidst that and that's what. friendship is. But aside from humans. also. there's just like. it's sitting at the kitchen table or. like looking out at a tree and nature. and just appreciating to be alive. That.

to me is love. Like that connection Yes. to just [ __ ] it's good to be alive. That feeling. Yeah. That yeah. But romantic love I just have. seen um. just over and over and over again. hanging out with Rogan and David Goggins. in Vegas. Just uh hanging out with. wives. Yeah. And seeing like. holy [ __ ]. so much of their success has to do with. with with these people and that. relationship. That's a huge component.

And so like I've interacted with a lot. of successful people where I don't think. it's an accident where there's this. belief in each other, excitement for. each other. And it's like you also. realize that what the hell you doing any. of this for? It's to your point like. what are we trying to teach people? I. think. I think success. is is tastes the best, feels the best. when you get to share with people you. love. Yes, 100%. And that's you know, so so to me that. seems to be essential for a happy life.

It's having a like a inner circle, a. small collection of people that you just. love getting excited about [ __ ] together. with. That is absolutely true. And sometimes. they're you know, the opposite sex or. the same sex, whatever they are then you. have sex with them. Yes. For many years. Right. Let me ask you a an interesting. question. That's how that works. In your estimation, I look at. Jeffrey and Ghislaine and I say they. were in love. Mhm. That was a a very deep and powerful. love. I see the same. I look at you and.

Ben the same way. Absolutely. Yeah. 100%. Ghislaine I guess. not as successful You're the Jeffrey. as Jeffrey and Ghislaine. You have By the way, yeah no no no. The word is yet. Yeah. But what I what I mean about that, right? Is you have this. from the outside world cuz it's a very. interesting conversation, right? Because everything you just said is. beautiful and true. Yeah. But let's look. at the other side of that. So to us. you have Jeffrey and Ghislaine. They're. having this amazing love affair. They.

genuinely deeply love each other. Do you think so, by the way? It seems. so. Okay. Right? I mean they the way they look at. each other. I mean they they they really truly. seemed. to to love and trust each other. Yeah. Right? They built this empire. Mhm. And. Nothing bonds you like doing evil on the. world. True. So my question is. is that valid. the love that they have for each other? Cuz it does check a lot of the boxes of. what you talked about where it's like.

huddling together. Mhm. Um you know, it's us against the. world. Yeah. Is that a valid love? Yeah, it it is. It is. But it it can blind you to such. to to where you can do evil like for a. you're doing to others. love of nation is something I also have. Right. I I Which nation? That's funny you should ask. No, of. course, man. I'm I'm I'm American. through and through which is what I. would say on a podcast that's going to.

be televised. in Austin, Texas. Nothing more American. than that. Exactly. It's It's It really sells, I. believe. Um I I'm shooting guns now. I'm going to. start wearing a cowboy hat just to make. people. believe. And uh can we edit out the part. where I said we're I talk Russian cuz. that's going to be a That's not going to. fit the brand of what I'm trying to sell. here. No. Uh. you know, you grow up in the Soviet. Union with the idea I grew up in the. Soviet Union with the idea of love of. country was really powerful. And so much.

of it was propaganda, but there was a. you know, literally the the national. anthem said. ironically enough, we're the greatest. country on Earth, indestructible. It is. the greatest The Soviet anthem is the. greatest anthem ever written. I play it. in the car with Ben. It is the most. powerful You want to talk about musical. Yeah. prowess? I mean it's amazing. And. I don't know, you should look at the. lyrics cuz they say we're. indestructible. There's a. you know, the American national anthem. is kind of polite. Yes. It's proud, it's beautiful. Yeah. The.

Soviet national anthem is like we're the. baddest [ __ ] on this planet. Right. You will never destroy us. Of. course, it collapsed. Yeah. So there you. go. They. they changed it quickly. They they. changed the national anthem after that. But so that's a love of country. Hitler. is an example of somebody that very. effectively sold a love of country. So. love. doesn't necessarily create good in the. world. Right. It's This is more kind of um Cuz love is. a very powerful force, a blinding force.

When you talk about propaganda in the. Soviet Union, you've lived in both. countries. You've seen American propaganda, you've. seen Soviet propaganda. How does. American propaganda function differently. or does it than what you uh remember. growing up in the Soviet Union? Maybe you could speak to. what you see as propaganda cuz there's. so many beautiful flavors of propaganda. Sure. In the in the United States, what I. remember from the Soviet Union, there's. a.

uh centralized. government-driven propaganda. So it's. it's more boring. Right. Capitalism does everything great, even. the propaganda. Right. So So. would I guess I would define it kind of. loosely as um. the way that narratives emerge and are. sustained in a society. Those narratives. could be about the society itself. They. could be about the way that society. interacts with other societies. Uh but. that to be. is the most enduring form of of.

propaganda is. basically. these specific belief systems that we. have that are sustained through. our media. Hollywood. uh. athletics, sports, things like that. Yeah, I it's incomparable to me. So you. could say like the mainstream media for. a long time was a was an arm of the. propaganda machine or something like. that because they would create.

narratives. uh maybe like going to war in. Afghanistan and Iraq. That was uh created through propaganda. You know, you can make all those kinds. of arguments, but ultimately in the. United States the freedom of speech is. obvious. Right. The not just the actual ins-. institutions that enable freedom of. speech, but the desire in each human. heart, in each American, like the. obsession with the individualist. freedom Right.

is like uh insatiable. So it's it's. amazing to watch actually. And so it it. like propaganda takes weird. forms here. There's just a lot of. competing narratives and there's battles. and then you realize. somebody like Alex Jones can make a lot. of money with one narrative, then. there's like CNN can make a lot of money. with another narrative and so it's a. competition of narratives. Which ones go. viral? Right. And all So ultimately though it doesn't. feel like centralized control.

in the way the Soviet Union did where. everybody legitimately believed. the the story told. In the United States. because of the competing narratives, I I. feel like everybody is. constantly skeptical about any of that. cynical and skeptical. To me it feels. like. the centralized control is not for lack. of trying. Like the lack of centralized. control is not for lack of trying. It. feels like you have this carcass, this.

this dead animal by the side of the road. which is the media. And you have vultures, I'm one of them, that are taking a little bit of it. Yeah. And the animal is maybe still. alive and it's moaning and going. uh uh and those moans are the stories. you get. Um It It does feel like this. was a centralized um So wait, the. centralized effort is the dead animal on. the side of the road? Yeah. And And you're the vultures that the. freedom of the the.

We're the people that are sustaining. ourselves by coming in and saying, "Hey, we possess the technology and the. ambition to also have a voice in a in a. in a very crowded space where a lot of. people want a voice." Um. But I I think you're you're absolutely. right, but what I see with with tech. tech. there's a real danger. that we can re-centralize. Meaning that you have very few companies. that have an enormous amount of power.

And you have a lot of different um. people at a lot of different beliefs and. narratives. You know every institution, somebody. said this once and I believe that. Every institution seeks power through. control. And that's something that I've seen. with the COVID over the last 12 months. Yeah. You've seen people get banned. You've seen people have their accounts. frozen. They've been demonetized.

They've lost careers. They've lost their. ability to speak because they've had a. different opinion and a different view. Yeah. Robert Malone I I saw his. Robert Malone was banned yesterday. Yeah, that was interesting. From from Twitter. This is one of the. creators of the mRNA vaccine, right? I. don't know why we can't live in a. society where Robert Malone is allowed. to have an opinion. I don't know why we can't live in a. society where. Joe Rogan is allowed to have an opinion, right? I mean he is now, right? I mean.

Yeah. But. Just just to clarify, you want him to be. banned? Who? Joe Rogan. Well, I think the way you state made that. sound I wasn't sure if you were doing. the joke. No, no, no. I You know, seeing. people. Somebody edited that that clip. Yeah. Well, Joe's show's not big, so I don't. think he needs to be banned. My show's. you get to a certain level. I'm. surprised you're not banned yet. They. will not Well, it's interesting. You do know I I know I know Jack Dorsey. pretty well.

So. Yeah, I don't think Jack's the problem. He's not actually. He's not. He's. I think he's like this libertarian guy. with a beard who actually does believe. in free speech. Twitter was the freest. of all of these. I think Zuckerberg's a problem. I think he's isolating. Truly. I think the people in his. in his group are a problem. And I think. um. Can I ask you a question about that. actually? So um on on Zuckerberg cuz I I.

have the same kind of intuition, but. um. like. how do we know for sure? Because it. feels like some of it is also narratives. I think because he wants to be a good. guy. And I think if you want to be a good guy. and you want the world to see you at all. times as a good guy, you're going to be very malleable. And if you don't have values that are. set in stone. um at any given time. I mean, look at.

the last year. Yeah. In the beginning of. the last year, mentioning that the virus. came from maybe potentially from a lab. in China made you a hysterical racist, some crazy reactionary. Now. it's a pretty well-established. reasonable hypothesis. That's only in 12. months. You've seen. voicing that opinion go from. exiled from polite society to pretty. reasonable rational mainstream belief. Now.

if you believe in freedom of speech, you ride that wave. And you say, you're. allowed to have this opinion and you're. allowed to have this opinion. If you're. looking to be a good guy, well, back there, you're going that. opinion's not allowed. But then a year. later, you go, "We'll allow it now." So. if you're constantly. going with. taking the temperature of of public. opinion and and these institutions that.

are around you. And I When I say public. opinion, I don't even mean the public. I. mean. the small set of people that really. define public discourse. That's my worry. about Zuckerberg is that he wants to be. seen as good all the time and he wants. to be liked all the time and that can. cause you to to But a lot of us want to. A lot of us want to be liked, right? I I. I want to be a good person. But not all. We don't own Facebook. So the point is. that my aunt wants to be liked all the.

time, but she's unemployed. So when you have when you control one of. the most massive exchanges of. information in the world, I don't you know, you having a basic. human trait. Yeah. can be a lot more. uh dangerous than a comedian having it. who has very little power, you know, in terms of Yeah. So your. sense is that anybody in Mark. Zuckerberg's position, your ability to.

truly have a good sense of who you are. and what the reality is gets corrupted. that's why Jack probably left Twitter. He's like he maybe sensed that something. I think Jack was basically like I can't. do it anymore. And again, I'm speaking. completely out of turn. I've never met. him um or spoken to him, but what I what. I do think is that he from my belief. system did believe in things. Now, it. doesn't mean. everything he believed in. uh you know, his company did not behave.

that way all the time. I don't think. they executed always. But I think I think there was some. overarching belief in the freedom of. people to exchange their opinions. Now, that started to get curbed later in his. tenure. And now he's gone and it scares. me what's coming next. So I think so sort of um. the belief in the freedom of speech. is an interesting one and as a platform.

because they have a lot of videos of. rape, violence being uploaded and they. have So they have to remove something. from the platform. That's right. And that becomes a slippery slope for. every platform, which they realize. Every social media platform, even the. ones that advocate freedom of speech, they have a line that you if you cross, you don't I think eight chan was the one. that was created that said like. "We're saying there's no line." But I. think even they had a line and that was. a big thing. Well, I I I believe there should be a.

line, right? I mean, in terms of like. child pornography, rape, uh violent. scenes of gratuitous violence, right? Threatening people to a point, you know, doxing people, putting out their. personal information, encouraging harm, right? There are all these. What I don't know uh I don't think those. lines should necessarily be political. And I think that's what I've seen more. and more of. I I I think. my biggest problem is sort of.

determining lines from a place of. arrogance versus humility. So I I really. like it when people kind of approach all. of this. with a with a high degree of uncertainty. about how much they truly understand the. world. So the the to me the problem is. isn't the drawing of a line, it's the. drawing of a line with arrogance. Like. as if you know better. And so I mean, you could see reasonably that uh quote. unquote misinformation about a pandemic.

could be viewed in a in a boardroom at. Facebook or whatever social media. company as something that could lead to. the death of millions, right? So from. their perspective, they could say, "All. right. Well, we want to stop the spread. of misinformation, so we're going to. censor everything that uses the word. ivermectin or something like that.". Right. But you have to have a humility. that wait a minute, maybe we don't. perfectly know. what. are the solutions to this pandemic. We. need to keep be open-minded here. Maybe. very specific figures in the scientific.

community aren't the sole possessors of. the truth. Even the the scientific. institutions themselves, maybe they're. not the sole possessors of the truth. And having arrogance about that is is. really dangerous. So to me, I So so the. reason I'm bringing all this up is. I hope it's possible to be. at the scale of Facebook, at the scale. of Twitter. and have the humility. to actually have a like like a product. that does good for the world. Right.

Like constantly ask itself, "Wait a. minute. Are we doing the right thing. here?" as opposed to kind of having very. specific metrics about engagements and. those kinds of things that Why in your. estimation did did. uh. Is is there. intact just like every business that. monopolies are so inevitable, seemingly? Like we have all these smart people in. America. We have all these. you know, capable people in tech. But all of these massive, whether it's. Amazon or Facebook, there's really five.

companies that control everything and it. seems to be that's going to be the way. that it'll be forever. And does. You disagree. Okay, well, that's good. I. would love it to change. It's a new It's a new. So tech I have to do with the industry. with the internet as new. So there's. another generation of people coming up. that I I I I would place the problem in. in. It's complicated, but let me let me try. to explain. I think one of it has to do. with money. So what happens is. uh like these big companies that.

acquire. What is it? The moment you. become successful, they start acquiring. you. And to me, one of the things. that I value like for me. um I I have a dream of starting a. company and I know for sure I will never. sell a company. So you have to believe. in your idea. And that's there's a lot. of. entrepreneurs that I see now that really. believe in an idea. And in that way, you. can build. a larger number of companies that create. a market of ideas and how you can do.

social media, how you can do what. whatever we're talking about, how you can do platforms that show. video, platforms that show images, all. those kinds of things. And then you. could have a competition in terms of. censorship, in terms of how data is. stored and shared, how much transparency. there is about the data. So I have a. hope for that. Uh so I don't think it always has to be. that way. One of the problems is that just. Facebook keeps acquiring everything that. that comes up. So when companies sell,

they just lose control. They lose control. And whatever that. initial idea was gets. potentially perverted. to fit someone else's idea or someone. else's profit model. And there's a kind. of complacency. with within big companies where they. don't they lose track. of what made them great in the first. place, which is constantly questioning. are we doing the right thing? How can we. do this better?

Right. So that urgency you have when. you're going to go bankrupt if you do. make the wrong decision, that's what. startups have. And you can't you can. never lose that urgency. That's Right. Jobs was great at, artificially or not. creating urgency. Like we need to. constantly create a new idea, constantly. create a new idea. And those people are. rare and Elon's an example of somebody. that does that. I I do think that one of the you know. the the weaknesses I think of the pro. free speech contingent of people is they. don't appreciate the complexity of the.

issue. Like it is very difficult. Like. the all the things we talked about, violence against children, you know, threatening things, making. people's home addresses available. Like. there is a lot of gray area. There. always has been. So I certainly don't. envy the job that somebody like a Jack. Dorsey has, right? I don't envy Mark. Zuckerberg's job. You know, these people. are dealing with foreign manipulation, they're dealing with bad actors in their. space, they're dealing with organized. troll campaigns directed from other.

places. So I don't envy that. It's it's. an insanely difficult thing to do, especially because we are living more. and more online. More and more people. and their ability to earn a living, their ability to market themselves to. companies all rests on their ability to. have. digital identity. So when you look at. this stuff you go it's you know and all. these you know things it's all these. like QAnon networks that start you know.

parlor and all these things that are. like you know explicitly political and. they go well if you're off Twitter you. can go on parlor but then you go on. parlor and you're like okay this is. Looney Tunes, right? You're going into. this crazy bubble. You're going into this crazy bubble. where a lot of things are just not based. in reality at all. It's a hard problem to solve cuz. It's hard. You could see like parlor you could have. hope like okay here's a place where. freedom of speech reigns and then you.

look there and it's like there's just a. bunch of hate and it's not even fun to. hang out there. It's right. So you go you need a little. bit of hate. You need a little bit of hate. And this is my new campaign. It's called. a little bit of hate. A lot of people. are getting rid of hate wholesale in the. schools and I believe I should go back. and just go we need a little bit of. hate. That's your TED Talk. Yeah, it's my TED Talk, a little bit of. hate. You need a little bit of hate. You. need a little bit of you know. um. contention. You need people who have. different ideas to be able to fight it.

out a little bit without completely. saying you have to use this service and. you have to use that service, you know? But it's tough. It's difficult. You know Tom Waits has Yeah, of course. got that song I like my town with a. little drop of poison. Yeah. That. I think that's true. I actually kind of. see you as that person in the tavern I. think it's in Shrek. Yeah. Where there's. an like old man in a tavern playing a. piano and he's got he's got a voice kind. of like yours. Yeah, it's it's kind of raspy, yeah.

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for. um you cuz you have this new internet. web 3 Yeah. as they call it, right? Digital tokens, crypto. Um are you a. believer in this? Are you a skeptic? What I mean Web 3 or crypto? Well. it's a good that's a good delineation. Web 3 is not something to believe in or. not, right? I mean that's just kind of. here. Do you believe that crypto is. going to be this force that helps things. decentralize or do you believe Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, so you know I've I've.

had a lot of conversations about. cryptocurrency. all the So I. I can give you the full sort of rundown. of all the different cryptocurrencies. that are exciting to me. But to me. personally zero of it has to do with. money. So I like financial. um. what do you call it? Investment. So a. lot of people that's part of the problem. with the space is a lot of people just. want to make money and they they want to. make a quick buck, so they they their. excitement is exaggerated.

by the fact that they're invested in a. particular coin. And so to me what's. interesting is the different. technologies involved and they're. amazing. So Explain briefly to people. that are unaware of what blockchain. technology is because. maybe they have not come in contact with. anyone. who has made it their business to yell. at them for 10 hours about it. Well it's it's it's a pretty tough task. Maybe one.

nice way to do it is just to mention. some of the key technologies that are. competing. So the original implementation of. cryptocurrency on a blockchain is. Bitcoin. And one of the defining aspects. of it is its proof of work. So it's very. difficult um it's it's it's grounded to. physical reality in the way that gold is. grounded to physical reality and that's. really powerful. And. also it's powerful because no. governments.

can control it. And so there's a There's. a finite amount of it. And there's a finite amount of it. So so. the scarcity is enforced. So it's going. to hold its value. There's a lot of nice. properties to it. And then the negative. side is the transactions are very slow. and expensive. So um people have. constructed like layer two technologies. which is using Bitcoin for the the great. things that Bitcoin does and having the. fast transactions that you want like if. you want to pay for dinner, they they.

have layer two technologies like. lightning network is an example that. sits on top of Bitcoin. Okay. Then. there's Ethereum with um Now. blockchain is like a. when people talk about a ledger. and what what would they. like how would you break that down to. somebody who's like wait a minute, what. in God's name. are you talking about? Uh. So. that all of these transactions are. um.

you know, stored? Yeah, so it's it's basically a database. Right. It's a way to store data in a way that. cannot be uh falsified. or um sort of um. sort of attacked and falsified and faked. and changed by anybody because there's a. lot of people that have a consensus. mechanism that are monitoring and have. full access to that data. And that So. blockchain just means store of data.

uh that has a a temporal component, so. it's there's a sequence to it. And nobody can modify it. Okay. And so. like this is like secure. reliable in the way that physical. reality is secure and reliable. If you. that. if you break a glass it's broken. That's. a fact that nobody nobody can unbreak. that glass and fake it convince you. never broke fake news like that reality.

happened and in the same way blockchain. is the first technology of its kind. that in a digital space that allows you. to have that same reliability across a. population in the same way that physical. reality is is reliable blockchain just. stores information in a reliable way and. nobody can mess with and then everybody. just uses that blockchain in different. ways and there's. is there one blockchain or there several. yeah each one does does one per.

per. per per crypto So ethereum a lot of the. NFTs that are selling right now they're. on the ethereum blockchain. Yes. And then ethereum has a lot of cool. properties of course it's evolving. ethereum 2.0 I think. it's supposed to come out 2022 so you. had the founder on your show a couple. times brilliant guy really humble so. some of these some of these. cryptocurrencies don't have one. figure head they have a community of.

people community of developers obviously. not obviously but it's well known that. the Bitcoin. creator and founder is anonymous. Satoshi Nakamoto right that seems to be. less true every year. I wouldn't be surprised if you are. Satoshi Nakamoto oh you're saying. people are seemingly. it's a. they're drawing a line around a group of. people it's got to be one of them right. yeah yeah yeah it's not like it could be. anybody. right but that's the beauty of it right.

that's that you don't know and that's a. powerful idea in itself the anonymity. but then Vitalik who's the. one co-founder of ethereum is kind of. like the figurehead and he represents it. and so. and there's there's a few others like. another co-founder of ethereum is. Charles Hoskinson who created Cardano. that's a very interesting piece of. technology. also so there there. I would say there's smart contracts. which is ways to use the blockchain to.

make agreements. between people like exchange assets or. do like you know the same kind of. contracts you do between people so. that's really interesting there's a. there's moving away from the proof of. work which requires you to use a lot of. resources explain that explain proof of. work when you said it grounds Bitcoin. to the physical reality explain proof of. work proof of work you have to solve a. cryptographic puzzle on a computer so a.

computer has to do a really hard thing. for a long time to solve it and so you. have to have a giant number of computers. doing a giant giant number of. computations so just that's why it takes. all this energy it takes all of this. energy but that's why it's very. difficult to fake it's very difficult. for. a large number of people to get together. and say we're going to create a bunch of. fake Bitcoin so this this really grounds. it you you always have to come back to. this mining effort of performing the.

computation. there's another what is it is a math. problem essentially it's a simple math. problem you just have to do a lot of it. to get one Bitcoin to mine one Bitcoin. and how many computers have to do this. as many as you want okay so you you can. be mining Bitcoin with one computer and. it would take a long time to take a very. long time so how many computers do you. need if you want to make quick work of. it it sounds like you're starting. getting ideas in your head. maybe I am I think it's getting less and.

less possible to really make money with. this mining effort I'm I'm actually not. paying too much attention of um. with where the major mining facilities. are China recently banned mining. Bitcoin mining so they banned. cryptocurrency and banned mining so all. the mines that were in China. had to move elsewhere but I think it's. distributed across the world I think. there's in South America there's in one. of the reasons that Elon.

he there's some here in Austin sorry to. interrupt sure I'm sure there are. Elon made some news by saying it needs. to be a greener more environmentally. friendly process this is maybe last year. so what the Bitcoins will say what the. Bitcoin folks will say is yes it's not. environmentally friendly but the benefit. you get far outweighs the cost so. there's a lot of stuff we do that's not. environmentally friendly driving cars. eating meat. and their argument is like well the. benefit to society is much higher than.

the cost it has to the environment so. like don't don't just find a boogeyman. just because you want. they just see it as another way to. attack Bitcoin okay but yes it's bad for. the environment but so are a lot of. things that's the argument that we'll. make because this has the opportunity to. revolutionize. the monetary system across the world so. one of the downsides of um. the way money is used in the world is. used by governments to control the.

populace that's right there's a lot of. people that talk about authoritarian. regimes. that. that that you know use inflation use. money to control people and so Bitcoin. allows you to start wars to start wars. do everything and so to fund gain of. function research into diseases that. leak out yeah okay allegedly. uh. I I've been thinking about whether I. want to talk to Fauci I really don't I. really he's not going to come on.

he will do you think he'll come on. so no no this is a discussion here he. said yes but the the problem is. he wants to do 15 minutes so he doesn't. know who I am. or anybody it's the same podcast problem. and I said no it has to be 3 hours and. so. because I do this is one example of a. person again that has a lot of. not again but there's a lot of positive. aspects to him that he's he's. accomplished a lot of incredible things. in his life he he started AIDS.

I mean that's a huge thing that was a. big deal yeah it's very impactful Hitler. was I think man of the century for the. 20th century. Hitler did no Fauci your friend. he's not my friend. and then him and Bill Gates. recently pizza. what I don't know about that but. Bill Gates is buying up all the farmland.

what's the connection between Fauci and. and. there must be a connection they're. disease freaks. they like diseases a little too much. there's listen I understand when you. spend your life researching pandemics. you get a little they're a little too. excited about it it's Nietzsche if you. if you gaze into the abyss the abyss. gazes back into you Fauci is also an. Italian. that's a big problem that's the first. big problem that you have they have many. defects. and that takes us back he's more suited.

to make pizza or. be a maitre d at a restaurant than he is. to be a scientist. it makes perfect sense Italians are not. meant Italians are criminals and they're. meant to be in. so wherever they are they're going to. commit crime so if they're in a pizzeria. and it's a cash business they can steal. some of the money and feel good about. themselves but when they're put in the. government they can steal so much money. they they get up too much power so Fauci. is a problem.

primarily because he's Italian that's a. huge well it's a huge part of it but. he's a power crazed Hitler. going. go back to the. ethereum and the. you know canary in the coal mine. let me just wrap up the Fauci thing. though to to quickly say that I do think. as a political leader in the response to. this pandemic he he did a terrible job.

he to me does not represent science. there is a lot of good things to say. about him but none of those things come. to mind for me in the pandemic response. yeah yeah yeah I. Tim Dillon speaking here. who a man who also called him. something Hitler. it was it was beautifully it was poetic. the way you referred to him as Hitler I. forgot.

Fauci yeah. vaccine Hitler thank you that was that. was a very good oh we should have four. of shots five shots six shots. I like to study diseases and then we. like to leak them into the population. and see what happens and then Bill and. Melinda Gates get divorced cuz Bill's on. Epstein's Island. Fauci didn't even get invited to. Epstein's Island that's how big of a. loser he is. I'm sure that that's that's the reason.

Bill Gates so you're a big believer in. the transformative effect of crypto. rather than the investment side. yes. not not a not like a big big believer in. the way cuz big believer in crypto space. means something else cuz there is really. big believers in the crypto space. I think there is certain cultish aspects. to cryptocurrency supporters where. they're not able to see. not always able to approach things with.

humility and an mind well that's. why we need humor, right? That's why we. need to also poke fun at things. Like. that's what people don't realize the. value in that. The value in like not. taking yourself so seriously. You know. who's great at it? The Winklevoss twins. are great at it. Yeah, they're great. They can make fun of stuff. They get it. They're great. Gary Vee is actually. really good. I was texting with him. He. understand Like people that surprised me. like they People understand humor. Yeah. And then there's a lot of people that. don't understand humor. That don't understand the value because. humor. at its core. at its base, all it seeks to do, right?

Is to. I think just take down these sacred. cows. Yeah. And it doesn't mean that the. sacred cows aren't sacred for a reason, right? Make a joke about Jesus. Doesn't. mean that Jesus wasn't this tremendously. impactful figure in history that. billions of people have put their. It doesn't mean that. What it means is. that. what humor is has this unique ability to. do. is maybe. make.

anything more. um. accessible to people. I think it makes. things accessible. It takes kings off. thrones. Yeah. And so people that believe so much in. Bitcoin, it can take a joke. The crypto world can take a joke. Yeah, and that's what That's why I'm a big fan. of you. That's why you I've been honored. that you would make fun of me a few. times. And you love it. I love it. I I. like um And when you It's never. nasty. No. No. Or mean. It's has nothing.

It's No, I like uh smart people acting. silly versus silly people acting smart. I like that. I'm not necessarily saying. I'm smart, but I certainly err on the. side of the silly cuz I I. That's why I Elon is also an inspiration. in that despite everything else, he's. able to be ridiculously silly. I Well, that's what I like about him. He he kind. of pokes the bear. Yeah. And he doesn't. get like You've made fun of him a bunch. Doesn't care. Doesn't care. I mean not.

not in a [ __ ] you way. I don't think he. knows who I am or even knows that I've. made fun of him. Oh, that I'm sure that's not true. Actually, but that'd be interesting. I'll I'll bring that up. Yeah, I don't I. don't know that he I don't know if it's. on his radar. But I also think if it was. on his radar, he wouldn't have. uh me drone striked. I think he'd just. chuckle. Yeah, exactly. Just chuckle. Chuck But. yeah, of course there's different kinds. of humor, too. There's this I mean, he's. more in the uh. dad jokes, silly memes category of. humor. You're more like I'm going to do. a.

tweet thread on Ghislaine Maxwell and. how great Kim Jong Un is. uh for the world. And you know. He's a He's a He's a He's fat forward. Yeah, fat positive fat body forward. Is. that a new. Fat forward. Okay, fat forward. Meaning that he believes the future is. fat. Yeah, he's a. He's a progressive fattist. I agree. Yeah. Is it interesting to you? You're in. worlds with a lot of very interesting. people. This technology, the robotics. that you're into. All of these.

countries, right? Are are are competing. for. um. I guess the word would be supremacy in a. lot of these arenas, right? If China has. the best technology, China's going to. export it to everybody. If the US has. the best technology, the US is going to. export it to everybody. There's a lot of. intellectual property concerns. There's. a lot of uh shadowy intelligence figures. that embed themselves. uh in institutions to try to gain access.

to a lot of like highly sensitive stuff. that's being developed and and stuff. like that. When you look at the landscape and you. see a country like China. I've had. journalists on my show that have said. they believe that China is very. influential in terms of like they see a. lot of American US corporate interests. saying that we have to adopt a lot of. these. uh Chinese technologies, surveillance.

states, social credit scores, things. like that so that we can then. export them to the rest of the world. We. have that hegemony. Uh does that worry you at all that um. we're in a competition with an. authoritarian country. And that in order. to beat them, we may have to become. them. Yeah, that Of course that worries me. So. for example, in the AI space. there's a. uh recent report from the United States. that. we're now fully engaged in developing.

autonomous weapon systems because China. is developing them and the argument was. made that. um you know. uh. we're willing to go into the race. for development of artificial. intelligence driven weapons because. that's for the good of the world because. China is doing it. So if you don't do. it, then they're going to do it. And. that's how any kind of um. um. you know, bad thing happens. So I'm. really worried about that. And because.

there's a lot of people saying like, you. know, developing like robot dogs for. example aren't the the main concern. here. Actually, it's it's drones. Right. Drones are terrifying. Like. people have There there's some kind of. magic connection that people have with. legged robots for example cuz it just. connects them to dogs and cats and. humans. But they're not actually very. good at uh committing violence uh. compared to drones. Drones are great at it. Yeah. Yeah. The. best. So the development of autonomy.

Currently, most drones are remotely. controlled and that degree of autonomy. is is minimal. Uh in terms of drones. that are doing uh But we're moving into. an arena where you would have drones. just deciding who and when to blow. people up? Well, it's more and more it's. greater and greater degrees of. automation. So you would say, okay, this. location, this building has a terrorist. And uh currently you have remote. controlled. uh operation of the drone to where you. can target very precisely that. particular building. But then you can.

start seeing going to a place where, okay, these are the set of locations we. believe the terrorists are are located. in. Uh but let the drone start to decide. what is the most likely of those. locations. Right. you get to more and more automate the. decision about uh. where to launch the bomb or the missile. And then. then you start to expand the region of. automation where the now there would be. a set of drones that just monitor.

the the presence of terrorists in a. particular city. I mean, it just becomes. a slippery slope where. you you when you take the human out of. the loop of the decision-making, you're. you're start to commit like. have the capacity to commit vastly. unethical things. So yeah, that really. worries me. Uh but also another thing. that kind of worries me is the the. warmongering on the flip side. I've actually talked to a bunch of folks. that live in China.

that. that Americans have a way of seeing the. rest of the world as kind of flawed and. America has the right to answer for. everything and how to live life, the the. the idea of freedom, that we are the. good guys. I mean, every country has. this idea. We have to be careful with. that because I think you have to try to. understand another culture. Agreed. So. the it's not obvious to me that um the. Chinese government is absolutely uh. unequivocally like evil. Right.

They have a very different culture. I. I've interacted with folks on many In. many ways their culture is very. different. Like uh the value of. uniqueness and innovation for example is. it's not. there in the same way that it is in the. United States. So uh. Chinese folks, Chinese engineers, Chinese entrepreneurs. are more okay with copying. ideas. Right. Like legally copying. The. way I would say Bill Gates and Microsoft.

copied ideas. Their whole approach was. uh. let's see what Apple does and take the. best ideas from Apple, from from. Netscape, uh from from Firefox, from. Google. They're They take ideas and they. try to make them better. That that kind of way of thinking is. just very fundamentally different from. the United States. And if you say if you. constantly call them. um. out for like stealing or something like. that, it's just constantly trying to. create tension where there there doesn't.

necessarily need to exist tension. Now, there's obviously a lot of aspects of uh. surveillance state that they're trying. to create that are. really worrying about human rights. But. again, I just feel like you have to lead. you have to start by trying to. understand them. I think one of the. things that I like that they do. is that. when they have a problem with. uh someone in their society, but usually. a very wealthy person, like a.

billionaire. Instead of. like beating around the bush. they just disappear that person until. they can be re-educated. Now It's dark. It's dark, but here's the. thing. I think. there's a. You know, we bring all these. billionaires before Congress and we like. yell at them. We have like these Midwestern mom. congressmen be like "You're making all.

this money and nobody's got any money.". And it goes viral on Twitter and. everyone goes, "Yes, queen.". But the reality is instead of that, why. not kidnap and torture these people? Disappear. Uh allegedly torture. Right. So I mean, I'm not actually So that. that's. that's really. bad if that's happening. Well, I'm also I'm making light of it, but I'm also saying we seem anemic. This. is my the serious point behind the joke. Yeah. We seem impotent to control.

anybody in this country if they've got. enough capital. Yes. China does not. So So that's. interesting. And currently China is making a lot of. centralized decisions that are actually. good for its society. So there's a lot. of people that are saying. That's interesting, right? Like if you. said the human right if you set the. human rights violation aside for a brief. moment if you look at the the markers in. terms of the economy, in terms of. actually the quality of life across the. population uh it's it's increasing.

rapidly. So the problem is you know, that's the problem with communism. Like. you could do a lot of good for in the. short term, but that it's a slippery. slope of power that corrupts people. Yeah, I I my biggest worry with China is. if there's an overbearing government is. not the disappearing of billionaires, it's the. the fear that overtakes the populace. where they can't speak up. It's the it's. it's the self self-censorship. It's not. censorship, it's self-censorship.

What do you think people get wrong about. Vladimir Putin? Uh this is a very touchy subject on this. particular program. Well, what do you mean by that? I have no. Well, you've become now that Larry King. has passed now you've become the new. Larry King in this. That is true. Uh. That is unequivocally true and no one. would deny that. What do they get wrong? Well, cuz he's a historical figure. Yeah. Uh and a present figure. You uh growing.

up in the Soviet Union, you have an. understanding of him maybe as a leader. that other people don't, right? From the. West or from outside. One of the things. I was highly critical of um was when. our government our CIA. was like fomenting coups in the Ukraine. encircling Putin, encircling Russia. And. then when Putin would respond to that, we'd go what a monster. But I mean if he. was doing that to us, we'd have the. exact same reaction. This is what I mean.

about propaganda and narratives. emerging, right? So however, that being. said, it does seem like uh there's a. consolidation of power that is. unhealthy. Um So I I'll say one. just building on your previous point of. the CIA and the FSB and the KGB, there's. a game being played there. There's game. game being played in the shadows and. there's a bunch of people that are very. good at this game. And I think what I. could say about Vladimir Putin is I.

think he's very good at this game. And I. don't like I personally don't like that. such a game is played. That anything is. done in the shadows. That there's this. manipulation that's happening. What. would this game be? Just uh spying on each other, the. cyberattacks in the modern world, stealing information um manipulating. information like. you know, creating narratives that get. like the American populace pissed off.

about something and then. Right. America creating narratives in. Europe that gets Europe pissed off at. Russia. All those things. That that. that's a game. That's a game of. geopolitics. Henry Kissinger is somebody that who was. incredibly good at this game. And the. fact that like such a game has to be. played is deeply dishonest and. destructive to the world. So I I mean. but that it's a fascinating game. And what troubles me most of course is. like we know so little about it. There's. a just a giant number of conspiracy.

theories but they're just. um flirting at the door of truth. They're not really you can't you can't. it's not it's not trans These. organizations are trans are not. transparent unfortunately. So I just. want to you know, say that. um. there is a kind of in Russia a. discussion especially amongst young. folks and it's certainly in the United. States. that sounds similar to the way people. analyze Donald Trump which is saying. that Putin is dumb.

That Putin. is just a lucky idiot. And um That's not true. Well, there's a lot of people that. believe this and I I what I personally. believe is he's a very intelligent man. And um. on in terms of the game that we're just. referring to. Of course. thing I should mention that people might. know, the reason I find him fascinating. as a historical figure is he's able. he is very intelligent in conversation.

So he's able to analyze the world. in very interesting ways. And there's. leaders aren't always that. intelligent in conversation or just as. you know. as analysts of history, analysts of the. present geopolitics of the world and. which you would appreciate humor. Right. And. like. dark humor. Right. So that's what makes.

him really fascinating to me. Um. obviously what also makes you. fascinating is that I believe. he's been in power for 20 years now, 20. 21 years. And I think power has changed. him and it's unclear to me in which. direction but it has. I think he was a different man at the at. the beginning of his rule. I don't want. to say too much on this podcast and sort. of what that is because it requires a. lot more context. Right. But there was a. let me just say that I as somebody who.

was in the Soviet Union. in the 90s and then the collapse of the. Soviet Union that was true suffering and. uncertainty. That that was a really really difficult. time. And what Putin did. is uh there's a um. significant economical recovery as that. started the 21st century with him at the. rule. And so that's why still a lot of. people see him as a powerful leader.

because he saved. Russia from the collapse of the Soviet. Union from like the destructive aspects. of the the Soviet Union. Yeah, from the looting. Yeah, well but. also the financial system was. is is wrecked. Yeah. And um there's. The oligarchs just kind of taking more. and more, yeah. And that's one of the. difficult realities you have to. see in or think about. when you think about Putin is the. context in which he operates, the level. of corruption all around.

There is some aspect to Russia where a. strong leader. in the short term is necessary. to keep. the corruption at bay. Now that's a dark reality and I don't. think it's a. grim. I think all revolutions are really. painful. That doesn't mean you shouldn't. go through with them. But if you just analyze the situation as. it currently is. Russia is in a very difficult place and. it as a human being just for me it hurts.

my heart because I know the culture of. the 20th century, the Soviet Union. There was so much love for mathematics. and science, for poetry and music. There's something about the World War. where tens of millions of people die. that creates some of the most beautiful. art. It's amazing. And and. so much of that. um I I think it's just a beautiful place. that culturally can flourish.

and be part of the world and it it. currently is not nearly. as much of a part of the world as it. could be. So science and. uh tech, there's just so little. communication between the United States. and the rest of the world with with. Russia. What do you think the next when. Putin steps down, what does the future. of that political system look like? This is the scary thing. It's it's uh. it's not good. It's not That's why a lot of people say, well. my life is good now.

and and they're afraid of the. uncertainty of Putin stepping down. Um Would you have him as a guest on the. show? Yes, of course. Do you think he would do it? Yes. Really? Yeah. When will he do it? This is you're the Larry King. Soon. Interesting. Yeah. Do you think he will do a podcast tour. where he will also do my show and Red. Scare? Yeah, so uh And a bunch of other shows? Red Scare, that's a good one. That's a. Yeah.

Well, they they're from there. Yeah. Probably Joe Rogan first. It'd be great if he did Rogan. Yeah. I I. Well, I told I I told Joe to be a. translator. So he speaks pretty good. English actually, but he doesn't speak. English publicly because. Right. you kind of have to re. needs to understand one word. Yes. Ivermectin. Uh he would probably say that there's. not enough love for the Russian vaccine. or you know, there's a Chinese. is the Russian vaccine? What?

I I I see you brought me on to the show. for the scientific analysis of the. different vaccines. I I Sinovac is China, right? What is the. Russian vac? Uh yeah, I don't actually know the. details about it. I just. know the name of it even? It's Sputnik 5 or whatever. Sputnik 5? Or something Is it. I'll get boosted with Sputnik 5. Is it. uh Ben, can you fact-check me on that? Covaxin. Covax? No, that's not the right. No, that's not the Russian one, Ben. What kind of mediocre research team do.

you have here? he's not a research team. Yeah, Sputnik V. You got it. Yeah. Thank you. All right. Um Who's he working for? That's the real. question. Well, that's he's the. Ghislaine Maxwell of the. operation. You're the Jeffrey Who do you. think is the brain. than him. Ha. A lot of people didn't even make. resolutions this year and you know what? I get it, but that doesn't mean you. shouldn't still find a way to shake. things up. Whether it's by switching up. your workout routine or going someplace. new. Whatever way you want to challenge.

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ritual kit. Mud Water, your dreams. deserve it. Who do you think is the brains, honestly? Both Jeffrey and Ghislaine? Yeah. Neither. Well, here's what I mean by. that. Ghislaine's father was intelligence. Ghislaine was very schooled in the world. of intelligence, right? And you know, understanding like. What intelligence is is the maintenance. of relationships. Yeah. Essentially, right? And having leverage over people. and how relationships are structured and. who has the upper hand at any given time.

and that could change and blah blah blah. and you know, so Ghislaine understood. that. Her dad was this media mogul, Robert Maxwell, who was murdered. Um her. sisters are in tech. It's an. intelligence family. Um. Epstein was a, you know, kind of. you know, from many people that have met. him, sort of. by no means brilliant guy, right? Like. he was not this. amazing intellect. However, he had a. very good understanding of.

people, their their appetites, their. proclivities, their weaknesses um. surrounding underage women, surrounding. illicit streams of money, where they. wanted their money hidden. Um I'm sure surrounding many other. things as well. He was He seemed to be. very good at that. I think the way that. they both functioned. was a team. of people that you know, ran this very I.

think Epstein was the public face. of it as a philanthropist, as an investor. Um I think Ghislaine was a just a. socialite. But uh not just a socialite, you know, to the public just a. socialite, but. behind the scenes she was a madam, she. was a pimp, she was a an access agent. She connected Jeffrey to people that. were very powerful in the UK and and and. other places that were friends of her. father. Um and they they had a an.

operation that was based on entrapping, blackmailing, gaining leverage over very. powerful politicians. So do you think there was an. intelligence connection to all of this? Mossad. It was absolutely a Mossad. with with Eric on this? Oh, it was a. Mossad operation, but that doesn't mean. the CIA didn't know about it and give it. its blessing, you know? The CIA ran. operations like this in the '80s, in the. '90s. These honey pot blackmail. operations are not terribly new. They.

were pioneered by the mafia. I mean, this has been going back for a very long. time, you know. But like have so many powerful people. involved like rich people. Oh, yeah. Sure. I mean, that's the point. The. point is to All of these institutions, whether it's Council on Foreign. Relations or all these things where. people think of very like nefarious, whatever it is, Bohemian Grove or Skull. and Bones. All of these things, what. they really are, they just create a. consensus amongst the wealthiest and. most powerful people on the planet. And.

that consensus becomes our foreign. policy, our domestic policy, our. corporate policy. So it's just creating a consensus. So if. you put a bunch of young guys at Yale. together and whatever they do, whatever. bonding activities they do to become. closer. or if you put them out in the woods in. Monterey, California, Bohemian Grove, or. if you put them on an island committing. crimes, what this does is this fosters a sense. of um you know, mutually assured. destruction, uh a sense of um.

you know, ho- ho- ho- homogeneous, you know, ruling a homogeneous ruling. class. I I I agree. By the way, I should. mention for the record, Ben is wearing a. Harvard shirt cuz he Yeah, that he was. given to by a fat woman who's no longer. fat cuz she had a gastric bypass. Wow. If you were more fat forward. Yes. like your friend, you wouldn't even. make that comment. But I mean, I think I'm right about this. where it's like it's an intelligence op. They were the face of it. As they moved.

into the digital world, it became less. necessary to have these physical honey. pots. Yeah, you tweeted about this that the. the the true tragedy of Ghislaine. Maxwell is that it's just yet another. human being losing out to automation. It's they're being replaced by AI. No. matter what you think of Jeffrey and. Ghislaine, it is a real issue. Human. trafficking used to involve humans. Yeah. There's a human cost. This is absolutely the case. Do you think I'm wrong about anything. I've said? Well, I'm uncomfortable with the intelligent.

connection you Why? Uh. There was a book about Ghislaine's. father called Israel Super Spy. Yeah, so. the father is definitely shady. Okay, so. the father's in the Mossad. We No, I. don't know about the Mossad thing. I You. don't know about that. There's something about the suicidal. whatever the death was. it's kind of widely uh believed, you. know, he was at the funeral or I forget. if this big Israeli premiere like I. think he's widely. difference between for example, if I. have a conversation with Putin, am I. part of the FSB? No. But that's an. important you know, Elon Musk was once.

at a party with Ghislaine Maxwell at the. same party and she threw. Everybody was at a party with Ghislaine. Maxwell. Well, yes. And so the question. is what is the depth of the connection? Well, it's it's there's book there's a. book about it. I mean, it's it's I have. a lot of books about a lot of stuff to. show you. Well, but written by Seymour Hersh. I. mean, Ben, get the title of the book up, right? Get the What is the title of the. book written by one of America's. greatest Pulitzer Prize-winning. journalists? Oh, yeah. It's Gordon. Thomas and Martin Dillon. Okay. The book.

is Super Spy by the Murder of him. Yeah, but also Seymour Hersh wrote something. it might not have been a book, but. Seymour Hersh wrote something as well. about about him. But But again, it's. there's an entire book about it. No, I. is evidence. No, I know. So, um. I'm underinformed about this topic. I. just have a general weariness of calling. people intelligence. Yeah, so because. it's such a tempting like whenever I in. my mind feel a temptation.

uh to see a conspiracy theory in. something, I I I uh hesitate. think it would be? If it wasn't. intelligence, what And let's say it's. not the Mossad. We'll back that out. Yeah. Which it was. But it's also CIA. and the Mossad and Saudi intelligence. are all like really tight. And MI6, they're like bros. Yeah. So, and then there's like Iranian. intelligence and Russian intelligence. and Syrian intelligence and they're like. cool. They're like friends.

Yeah. So, this is a view of the world. with the intelligence organizations as. ultra competent. I. Yes, they are. Okay. Well, this is my my. view. is they're not ultra competent. Not all. of them, but They're exceptionally. well-funded. They're large organizations. that have have a lot of people pushing. paper and they are pretty effective a. lot of things, but there's these are not. the A students of the world, I believe. Okay, let's the A students don't run the. world, C students do. Well, this is And. you don't have to be an A student if. you're willing to kill someone.

Truly, if you're a C student and you're. willing to put a gun in someone's mouth, Yes. it's actually probably just as good. as having an A. What would you say it is if it's not an. intelligence blackmail operation, what. would you uh say that it could be? I. would say it's one charismatic person, Jeffrey Epstein, Yeah. that was evil and. committed things um But that's the. Everyone listening to this,

you sound crazy. show, which is why I enjoy doing it. No, but think about everybody. I'm not I'm I'm a little bit playing. devil's advocate here. So, I'm not don't. fully believe this, but there's a. there's a sense. where I feel that. there's an important distinction to. draw. Jeffrey Epstein being a complete. manufacture manifestation of an. intelligence agency versus as one. charismatic evil person becomes more and. more successful individualist like on an. individual level, you start meeting. powerful people and then intelligence.

starts to weaken and. that it's necessarily the entire. intelligence agency, right? These these. intelligence agencies are bureaucracies, but they do have within them. fiefdoms and factions of power. You have. bad actors, you have people that are. outside of the agency officially that. have all the skills and know all the. people. So, it's not necessarily as easy. as going like it's the entire CIA behind. any of these things, right? But there. are groups of people All the. intelligence agencies do is they work. for billionaires. Essentially, they work.

for American corporate interests. That's. what the CIA does. They've overthrown. governments. at the behest of American corporate. interests. This is the CIA works for. wealthy people. They essentially are the. information, the muscle, and yes, where we cannot do things. overtly uh with our military uh and with. US policy and get things passed through. Congress, you have a shadow organization. that's able to do that. That's not. terribly controversial, right? I mean,

that's pretty well known. If you look at. all the coups, you know, in other countries that are. provable, coups maybe in this country. that are What what's what's important. for me to understand with this is I. don't think it's controversial. The. question is the scale. At which how many. people are involved, how much. uh. like how much of it is at the core what. the CIA does versus this is a few. people. Well, at the the core of what. the CIA does probably is largely. you know, they gather a lot of. information and analyze it. Yeah. But.

then there are like the core of any. business, right? So, if you looked at. Walmart, the core of Walmart is you. going in and buying socks and someone. taking your money, you know, but then. there's a group of people in Walmart. making decisions and charting the. direction of the company and what. they're going to do for the next 5 or 10. years. So, I think the core of these. institutions can be relatively benign, but the there's again power factions. within them that are not all.

homogeneous, right? There's people in. the CIA that had no idea what was going. on. There's people that would be. disgusted by it. There's people that. would be repulsed by it. There's no. getting around this fact. Blackmail has. been. uh an essential part of the recruitment. of agents. It's been an essential part. of maintaining relationships with. people. This is how intelligence people. have often found leverage to gain.

information. Yeah. That is true. Yeah, that's very. true. The My question is. how. um. is that increasing or decreasing the. amount of that being done? So, ultimately my question is about So, whenever you think intelligence is. running. the most powerful people in the world. that are blackmailed and everything is. being controlled by by certain very. powerful figures, you you. very naturally lead to a cynicism about. the future of the world that deeply.

troubles me. So, like I want to land in. an optimism like with with people. Have you tried drugs? Uh not not. not all of them. Drugs are very good for this. Because. they make. Optimism. Well, they make you feel a way. that reality might not. No, I don't think so. I think drugs I'm. not saying everything's cynical. I'm not. saying everybody's controlled. What I am. saying is that. one cannot bury their head in the sand. when there is a island. and a mansion in New York City that has.

recording equipment. You have a guy that. was let off the first time with a very. sweetheart deal who's palling around. with prime ministers, kings, and. presidents. It's the definition of this. looks bad. But I would argue it's the. Nietzsche gaze into the abyss and the. abyss gazes back into you. I would argue. if all you study is the Jeffrey Epstein. case, you will see devils everywhere. You will. think there's devils everywhere. So, this is the burden of the great That's.

QAnon. Well, that's that's also I mean, Alex Jones talks about this. When. Alex is crazy. I love Alex, but he's nuts. constantly analyze this stuff, you just. it's all you see is red. understood. And. so I. If you don't see any red, that's also a. problem. If there's no devils, you go, "Well, I don't think there's any. devils." The That's an issue. There's a. there's definitely a balance to strike. there. I. I I It seems unsupported that this is. one evil person and another evil person.

together with no larger. No, no, no. They the the network builds. over time. And they. a lot of it is parties and handshakes. and so on and you greet each other. politicians. I'm sure So, okay, one one thing. that seems to be the case. because I've known people that interact. with Jeffrey Epstein, he seems he completely deluded them. Like the the charisma is there and it. doesn't have to do with money or.

uh women. At uh at the core level, it has to do. with straight-up in the room together. charismatic guy. Yeah, and so. I just believe that one charismatic guy. can do a lot of damage in this world. without first um. sort of uh being manufactured as a. strategic deployment onto the United. States by some intelligence agency. Now, over time as he interacts with more and.

more powerful people, he probably met he. probably got some phone calls and. probably had some meetings I don't even. think I would say that he was deployed. I think that I don't believe that the. way these agencies necessarily operate. is that we're thinking of them as. you know, custodians of national. interest, which I don't think they are, right? I think they are kind of. work-for-hire organizations where. there's certain people in those. countries that have a lot of money that. have an idea about the way things should.

be run that, you know, kind of use these. agencies. I don't necessarily think that. like all of these agencies all the time. are focused on um the betterment of any. one particular nation-state. I think. there's a certain group of people that. have enough money and enough power that. use these agencies as ways to sustain. that uh, position in society. So, I. think Epstein, whether it was in Tel. Aviv or in London or in Manhattan, was.

having conversations with these people. whose loyalty is really not to. any particular country, but it's to. their own interests. I just have to say. that I am really troubled on a on a. personal level Yeah. that there's a lot. of people I respect. that when they were in a room with. Jeffrey Epstein were not able to see. through the. were not able to see evil. Would not. have the integrity to. they were looking at [ __ ] Well, this. is this is the This is the the thing is.

I mean, maybe I'm built different. This. is Isn't that like a Ford thing or. something? Um, built Yeah. Uh, I I could [ __ ] She have it. I I just think you can't let [ __ ] or. money delude you and and destroy your. integrity. Integrity should be above all. else. And when I see. that not being the case with Jeffrey. Epstein, um, like people that have spoken with.

Jeffrey Epstein, that really troubles. me. That his. charisma. and manipulation revealed the people who. lack integrity in my view. Now, I could. be naive because. you could be the next Jeffrey Epstein. and Ben could be the next Ghislaine. Maxwell. And here I am. doing this beautiful podcast and I'm. even a fan. So, maybe it's your charisma. that's complete. giving me um, uh, the. Nobody's giving me an island and. nobody's giving me the largest, uh, one.

of the largest, uh, pieces of real. estate in Manhattan. This is also the. problem. When you look at this, um, you. know, as uh, just this independent, uh, thing, uh, you look at, well, why did. Les Wexner, who's the head of the. Limited Brands, gift Jeffrey Epstein. these massive. insanely desirable pieces of real. estate. Uh, it's one in New York City, right? Um, what is the connection there? That's that that connection has not been.

proven. that one. Yeah, what people have spoken. about, that's really shady. And that. Let's just do shady connection, right? So, you have this guy who is, uh, well-established human trafficker and. you have his biggest benefactor, uh, financially not questioned at all in. any meaningful way about this. I mean, you can be as as averse to conspiracy. theories as you want, but a lot of. times, unfortunately, they just become. the news.

And this has kind of become the news. Yeah. Yeah, it's become the news. But I understand your thing. I think. your thing's valid. The QAnon movement, which is psychotic. people whose minds had melted when they. got a few nuggets of truth and then they. concocted Disney-esque. childish stories. Yeah. about good and evil because they. wanted everything in life to have.

the clarity and certitude of religion. and they created this thing where. everyone in Hollywood's evil and. everyone's a pedophile. And then dead. people are going to come back and JFK. Jr. It was a It was a very religious. movement. That's what happens to people. when they see devils everywhere and. they're unable to, uh, differentiate. fact from fiction. And then on the other. side, there's similar things in the the. scientific community has really been. disappointing to me about the level of. arrogance, how they dismiss every.

conspiracy they they just dismiss. basically everything as a conspiracy. theory that's not like. very narrowly defined, uh, public. policy. I watched your interview with the CEO of. Pfizer. That guy, the Greek guy who owns. a diner. And what I like about that interview. was that he was a, um, No, but he's a doctor. You've offended the Greeks, the. Italians.

He's He Even though he's the CEO of. Pfizer, he literally owns a diner in. Astoria, Queens, where he brings out. spanakopita and yells at his his wife. and their nephews who work at the diner. Yeah. By the way, That's the reality. I'm guessing his son is a is a fan of. yours cuz his son mentioned the podcast. he likes. He's a fan of this podcast or. my podcast and I'm guessing. a fan of me. I mean, very smart people. listen to you. That doesn't mean they. come over to me. Yeah. They should. That's the That's. Yeah, that's the the next step.

answer to him is less listening to Lex. Friedman and more getting people. mozzarella sticks in your father's. diner. to work. Because when I see that guy, you go, oh, he's a CEO of Pfizer, I go. this is a a guy who owns a diner. Yeah. And it's a struggling diner. But it's good. Yeah, they make they make. good. mileage out of out of the coleslaw. Let. me finish up with this. Ben, how long. have we done? We've done a while. Can I just say before you finish up. Yes. how much I love Ben. He's really. the best part of your podcast.

Ben is a That's not true. But Ben is a. No, I love Ben. Ben is essential for me. to do what I do. And. No, he's just a kind soul and I can. He's a kind soul. He's a good-hearted. person. He's a good-hearted person and. he works very, very hard and he's one of. these people where I'm lucky to have a. Ben. Not everybody has a Ben, right? So, I'm lucky to have him. Now, that being. said, he must be watched. Very closely. Harvard. He must be watched closely.

else wore a Harvard sweatshirt? Jeffrey. Epstein. Yeah. Is that the Is that the. reason you. it was an unconscious thought. Yeah. But. Ben must be watched like everyone. They. must be surveilled. Yeah. So, you do. like the Chinese government after all. I. love the Chinese government and they're. advertising on my podcast next month. Mhm. I No, here's what I say about them. They're going to be tough to beat. Yeah. They're going to be hard to beat. cuz they're willing to do things that we.

might not be willing to do. And that's. you know, I don't know. Uh, can I read you a poem? Yes. Cuz this poem makes me think of you. Yes. I I like this. Look, I I haven't even heard it, but I'm. excited. And then I'll read you a poem. So, you go first. Okay. Is it Cat in the Hat? Yeah. All right. Well, this is probably my favorite. Bukowski poem and it it's exactly about. you. All right. Oh, that's very sweet. There's a kind of, uh,

Bukowski-esque aspect to your career and. to who you are. Yeah. Okay. It's called. Bluebird. There's a bluebird in my heart that. wants to get out. But I'm too tough for. him. I say, stay in there. I'm not going to let anybody see you. There's a bluebird in my heart that. wants to get out. But I pour whiskey on him and inhale. cigarette smoke and the [ __ ] and the. bartenders and the grocery clerks never. know that he's in there.

There's a bluebird in my heart that. wants to get out. But I'm too tough for. him. I say, stay down. You want to mess me up? You want to. screw up the works? You want to blow my. book sales in Europe? There's a bluebird in my heart that. wants to get out. But I'm too clever. I. only let him out at night sometimes when. everybody's asleep. I say, I know that. you're there, so don't be sad. Then I put him back, but he's singing a little in there.

Haven't quite let him die. And we sleep. together like that with our secret pact. And it's nice enough to make a man weep. But I don't weep. Do you? Charles Bukowski. That's a great poem. Now, I want to I. want to do a poem for you. That was I. loved that. Is this an encouragement to let your, uh, the bluebird out? Yeah. It's It's a. little bit of love. Okay. I mean,

I want to find this one. I'm almost scared. Are you Bukowski fan? Yeah. Bad ass [ __ ]. Bad attitude. Nails done, hair done, ass, too. Your baby daddy [ __ ] me and. sucking me. He don't answer you, [ __ ]. That's because of me.

Who's Who's the. author of this, uh, masterpiece? Young. Miami. Okay. Well, thank you so much for having. me on your podcast. Thank you for having me. Lex Friedman, everyone. Yeah.