#259 - Independence Day with Glenn Greenwald | The Tim Dillon Show

Glenn Greenwald one of the seven. journalists I believe I said there were. seven journalists left I I may be. exaggerating that number but you're one. of them thank you for talking to us I. appreciate it from your beautiful. Mountainside. uh Casita in I don't know in Brazil I'm. on I'm unsure. um I wanted to that's so multilingual. yeah. well I try I wanted to talk to you. um first kind of a broad general. question are you surprised at how.

controversial you've become over the. last 12 months is it is it shocking to. you how many people are angry at you and. how often they're angry. not exactly I mean I do tend to have a. very slightly polarizing personality and. it's kind of in that way for a long time. so making people angry is in totally new.

to me. I've been doing that more or less since. I started writing about politics and. even before when I was practicing on. Manhattan and even before that one I was. just an obnoxious kid but I think what. has happened is because of this. perception it's not the reality but the. perception that I have removed myself. from one faction and placed myself into. another would generally.

inspires the most intense anger and. hatred are not people who are just. against you from the start but people. who you believe have become traitors to. the cause or Heretics to the religion. and there's a lot of people who. are looking at me that way and are. really angry it's kind of like a sense. of betrayal and I think that's part of. what is being generated but I also think. it's you know I mean I don't want to act. like I'm some innocent victim I mean I. also especially since I got the. intercept and found this kind of you.

know complete freedom and Independence. have been waging my own little war on a. not the dominant sector of the media and. it's only natural to expect that they're. gonna wage war back on me so I feel like. it's kind of a two-sided battle and it's. not just me standing there all alone and. innocent being you know attacked what in. your estimation has changed. um the media held a lot of water for. George W bush. well can you kill them I'm kidding.

um I mean I hate I mean animals are so I. know he loves dogs but it's just it's. it's I mean it's amazing these these. people with the dogs all the time dogs. you have to hey you have to take it on. the right way Tim they're very they're. as excited as I am about. your show I was actually supposed to be. on Rogan tomorrow and I had to cancel. that. as well who is that does he have a. podcast go ahead anyway I've Rogan oh. yeah the guy for Fear Factor anyway.

um what has happened in your estimation. with mainstream media because they did. hold a lot of water for George W bush. they seemed to always uh covet their. position coddling people in power this. is my my view of it as a comedian and I. I look at them and I say they like to be. close to power they dep they depend on. Scoops and they depend on access for. stories and I've watched you know I I. it's amazing in my own short little. meaningless life I have watched Ann.

Coulter go from let's invade their. countries kill their leaders and convert. them to Christianity to we shouldn't be. uh doing anything we have to be America. First and take care of our own and I've. watched Rachel Maddow go from. um we should not be uh you know using. the military as a tool uh of uh foreign. intervention to we need to be using the. military it's everybody's flip-flop. values seem to mean nothing and the only. thing that seems to matter is this raw.

lust for viewers or for power what has. changed in this last you know five years. so the attribute of the media that you. identified at the start of that question. which was this kind of deference to. power has been there for a long time. it's probably more than anything else. what caused me to stop practicing law. and start writing about politics in 2005. was my observation that the media had. become extremely deferential to Bush and. Cheney and the war on terror as you said.

it was a bipartisan war on terror there. was very little dissent tolerated no. questioning and there were all these. kind of vital issues especially attacks. on civil liberties being waged in the. name of uh fighting terrorism that I. thought were very disturbing and Grave. that very few people were covering and I. started writing about politics in order. to do that and noticed of course that. the media was deferential to the CIA the. security state that goes back to the. Cold War as well so I don't think I. still think that's a huge pathology in. media but I don't think it's new I think.

what's new is what happened during the. Trump years which is in a lot of ways. Donald Trump just broke the brains of. huge numbers huge sectors of American. society think about it if you actually. believe. and you tell yourself every day and the. people that you work with and listen to. and who are around you are also. affirming. this list of really disturbing. conspiracies like the Kremlin has taken. over the United States and is. controlling the levers of power using.

sexual and financial blackmail over the. White House that Donald Trump is like. this hilarious figure who's ushering in. Fascism and is an existential threat to. America if you actually start believing. all those things and saying them every. day you're going to go [ __ ] crazy and. not only are you going to go [ __ ]. crazy but you're going to start to. conclude that a whole variety of things. that previously were Unthinkable to you. because they're unethical or way outside. of what the role is of the profession. that you've chosen now become not only.

acceptable but. urgent so the idea that you have to do. anything and say anything in order to. stop this uniquely. Insidious figure you have to align with. the CIA and the FBI and the NSA the. agencies devoted to killing Donald Trump. you have to our undermining Donald Trump. you have to to reunite with the neocons. and Bush Cheney scumbags because they're. also against Donald Trump it just it it. radically reshaped the world view of.

financial Elite media Elites political. Elites and Donald Trump became the. singular figure through which everybody. or almost everybody understood the world. and that's what I think accounts for. those reversals that you were just. alluding to what about Trump was if Jeb. Bush had won I don't think we would have. had this. so what about Trump was the the you know. the Catalyst for such a widespread. mental breakdown was it that he was.

vulgar and crass was it that so many. people had told themselves he wasn't. going to win uh was it that he defeated. potentially the first woman president. what about him specifically uh sent. people down that rabbit hole. yeah so I think it was all of those. things that you just mentioned but I do. think the primary one is that just. compartmentally Trump was such a radical. deviation from what we've come to expect. from the face of American power if you.

actually look at what the Trump. Administration did. there's almost nothing that it did that. is radical from the perspective of the. American political tradition there was. very little convergence between the. things he was saying and tweeting that. made people so upset and the things that. the United States government was. actually doing because the whole point. of the US government in the post-world. War II order is to function outside of. the constraints of democratic. accountability they've insulated.

themselves from elections it doesn't. matter who wins there's no way to change. who they are unless you devote yourself. in a like a kind of very devoted. world-like fashion to undermining them. which is Way Beyond Trump's competence. or desire he you know had the attention. span of a Nat he was you know interested. in using the office just to like. vindicate Petty personal grievances not. to radically transform the country which. had its value but so yeah I think it was. what you know what American Presidents.

really are expected to do more than. anything is to be a deceit a deceitful. prettifying symbol. on the horrors of American Power. American capitalism and American. imperialism they're supposed to be these. like erudite lofty Noble figures like. Obama and even like Bush was and he's. like Evangelical Incarnation to put a. pretty face on what the United States is. and Trump Not only was incapable of. doing that he's just a vulgarian right. he's like spent his life in you know as.

a billionaire array yeah he's a Thrice. Manor he's a Thrice married gambling. Tycoon I mean this is not the person. you'd want representing your team. right but not not only do they have no. ability to do it but he also had no. desire to do it you know I think like. one of the most telling moments was. early on he did an interview with Bill. O'Reilly. on Fox and Bill O'Reilly said you seem. really positive and enthusiastic about.

Putin. what like how can you feel so positive. about Putin when he kills journalists. and dissidents and Trump said what you. don't think we have our own words that. his quote we kill a lot of people here. too yeah. right it is usual the thing that makes. everybody angriest is when you tell the. The Forbidden truth right like everybody. knows that that's true right but the. American president is the last person. who's supposed to say that right they're. supposed to uphold images of American. exceptionalism so I think it was just.

the upset that it you know he just kind. of like defecated on the White House he. like vandalized the noble corridors of. power right that stand for American. exceptionalism and I think that more. than anything is what got them so upset. along with the uncertainty that you know. it kind of [ __ ] with everybody's. expectations the New York Times was. saying there was a 97 chance that. Hillary Clinton was going to be elected. she's like uh you know inside member of. the Royal Court and has been for decades.

there was the historical aspect of the. first woman president all of those other. things you said that also caused it but. he was just such an unpredictable. tornado you know sweeping through. Washington where they all their power. and their certainty and their money and. their livelihoods are all based that it. was just like an earthquake why didn't. they upset them why didn't they kill. them right because they killed JFK they. kill certain people certain people they. don't kill their control. um why would they not in this case kill.

him I mean maybe they can't anymore in. the 60s they used to kill everybody uh. now they I mean Bobby uh Kennedy Martin. Luther King I mean you can go through. them right Malcolm Malcolm X I mean they. just kill a lot of people right now I. guess they couldn't do that in this case. he won the presidency. um so do you think when you had James. Brennan and Clapper and all these people. that were working to you know undermine.

his presidency seemingly from before he. was even inaugurated. um do you think would you say that was. sort of a. um am I am I going too far to say that. that was uh kind of a soft coup were. they trying to manufacture factual. intelligence that got the president. impeached and potentially removed was. this based on anything real was it. paranoia I mean I read the steel dossier. and I've read some of Jane Mayer's. reporting and I I used to like Jane.

Mayer a lot like she wrote a great book. about torture called The Dark Side. um and I think she's she's written some. some really good stuff she wrote about. the Koch family but some of her. reporting on the Russia stuff seemed a. little paranoid what what do you think. that was when you look at Russia gate. you look at the Inception of it where. did it come from is this is this. paranoia or was this a coordinated. attempt to to remove a guy who was. elected from office. well you know it's interesting we're. filming where we're taping this on on.

the 50th birthday of Julian Assange who. yes and you might yes you might say like. well why don't they just kill him. because he has been you know probably. the single most effective person in. terms of spilling Western secrets in the. last generation and the reason is is. because they didn't have to they just. neutralized him they kept him walked. away in Embassy for eight years and now. they have him in a high security prison. in the UK never having charged them with. any or convicted him of any crime but.

just he's been in prison for a decade. that's how I look at Trump as well he. was really a weak president him like. right he he dominated the news but they. did a great job with this concocted. Russia gate Scandal that really engulfed. his presidency for four years he got. impeached twice I mean the second time. was because of the January 6th stuff but. you know the first impeachment grew out. of Russia gate but it paralyzed the. administration forever they were under. investigation from the start and that.

all came out of the CIA and the FBI and. you know like it's not like it was. completely concocted I mean. I know this is shocking to a lot of. people but. countries do interfere in each other's. domestic Politics the United States more. so than anybody so yeah the Russians. wanted to [ __ ] with the election just. like the Iranians did just like the. ukrainians did on behalf of of uh. Hillary Clinton and you know there were. some meetings between the Trump campaign.

and the Russians that ordinarily would. have just faded into the woodwork in the. context of like billions of dollars. poured into the election some Russian. bots on Twitter and Facebook were like. an infinitesimal barely detectable. presence so they took this tiny little. grain of Truth and they. exploded it into this completely. manufactured but quite dangerous. conspiracy theory because it ratcheted. up tensions between the world's two. largest nuclear powers and then you had.

these media Outlets who as I said before. were convinced that it was their solemn. Duty no longer to do journalism but to. stop Trump which are two very different. things. and they just started getting fed by the. CIA like they have been for decades this. this this this just. Carousel of leaks designed to harm Trump. and they just were publishing it without. any critical analysis at all right so. when you say like why did they kill. Trump like they didn't need to kill. Trump they got most of what they wanted. to spite Trump they watched absolutely.

why couldn't they control the way that. John Brennan kind of controlled Obama it. was a very close relationship and got. Obama I think we were in seven wars and. we you know had a huge uh drone War why. were they not able to do that with Trump. was it mainly personality did they they. felt that they had to neutralize him. with Russia gate why would they not just. he seems like a guy that loves adulation. he seems like a guy was there no other. way that they could have um you know.

exacted influence on him besides you. know dragging the country through this. two-year somewhat ridiculous thing. so part of it I do think is personality. if you look at how Obama has navigated. through life he's always been an. institutionalist he always appeased. institutional power he was very Adept at. um making people feel like they. connected to him that they were doing. something subversive and important when. in reality all he was doing was. aggrandizing institutions of authority. that's who Obama was so he came into.

office with this huge Army behind him. saying he was going to change Washington. he had no interest in doing that so it. was very easy to kind of uh mold Obama. and integrate him into this existing. permanent Power Center he didn't really. resist he kind of liked that he found it. appealing. so you know and he got those like. cerebral generals like David Petraeus. and loved like Special Forces and like. covert operations more than full-scale.

invasions so you know they were very. happy with Obama. um I think it's two things with Trump. one is I do think like his personality. you know if you look at how Trump is. always on his life I lived in New York. 15 years when Trump was you know just. like a celebrity billionaire real estate. logo always on page six or whatever you. know he was born in Queens we always had. like this huge inferiority complex he. always felt justifiably like the. Manhattan establishment looked down. their noses at him because of how he. spoke his Elder burrow demeanor and. that's why he was building those huge.

you know penises in the middle of. Manhattan to show that like he wanted to. live above them all he like always had. an inferiority complex much like Richard. Nixon did and so when you have this. inferiority complex it breeds this like. resentment and when you're resentful. toward institutions you're really not. looking for them to. like you you actually feel this. hostility towards them because you know. that they look down upon you that's one. thing but I think the bigger part of it. was. the CIA and FBI's.

maneuvering against Trump began prior to. his inauguration it happened throughout. the 2016 campaign that was when Russia. gate was born in order to help Hillary. they were openly cheering for Hillary. but the last two prior CIA directors. Michael Hayden under George Bush Michael. Morrell under Obama so one Republican. one Democrat both essentially endorsed. Hillary in the New York Times And The. Washington Post both accused Trump of. being a Russian agent so this narrative. came from the CIA and Trump knew that. they were trying to sabotage him from.

winning so as soon as he won first thing. he did was he turned around and [ __ ]. the CIA and then like remember one of. the first things that they did was James. Comey went to you know the Trump Tower. and briefed Trump on the Steele dossier. knowing that that would then justify. news outlets covering it and that was. before he was even inaugurated so he was. at war with them from the start and they. were if we're with him and I think like. one of the most telling. exchanges people should go Google this. if you they haven't seen it because it's.

like a rosetta stone for how American. politics worked Trump being Trump when. he saw that the CIA was trying to blame. Russia for his victory which he felt you. know like it was kind of undermining or. delegitimizing what he had achieved so. he was very angry about it started going. on Twitter and mocking them for getting. a rock wrong like why the [ __ ] should we. believe the CIA when they say Russia did. it when they're the idiots who told us. that weapons of mass destruction Saddam. had weapons of mass destruction again. things that American Presidents don't. say that are nonetheless true and I.

think it was like three days before. Trump was inaugurated Chuck Schumer the. senior Democrat in Washington went on. The Rachel Maddow Show. and she asked him about these tweets. that Trump was she was very upset. because she loves the CIA she's very. upset that Trump would like demean you. know the brave men and women at the CIA. who keep us safe and she asked Schumer. about it and Schumer said. leaving aside the morality of it he. thinks he's a hard-nosed businessman but. even for a hard-nosed sister just as a. hard-nosed businessman it's such a.

stupid thing what he's doing because. everyone in Washington knows that if you. [ __ ] with the CIA they have six. different ways to Sunday. to get back at you and that's what. they're going to do to him he foretold. the entire as you said soft too right. like he openly admitted what you're not. supposed to acknowledge most people. don't really know what the CIA is or. what they do I mean my listeners do and. you know I think it's most people think. the CIA goes around you know keeping uh.

terrorists from flying planes into. buildings which I'm sure it is a is a. percentage of their job but from my. understanding the CIA uh is a kind of. the enforcement arm of the larger uh. whatever you want to call it whether. it's the military industrial complex. some people have said it's that you know. they use the word deep State basically. these unelected power factions in. Washington that are made up of this. revolving door of corporatists and. lobbyists and defense contractors and. people that are involved in the. extraction of natural resources and uh.

you know high level people uh in banking. and high level people in Tech and the. CIA is sort of. um you know their their muscle so to. speak it's they're the agency at the. table to kind of pave the way for them. to do the things that they want to do is. am I wrong in my conception of what the. CIA does and what their what their. function is but you know maybe their. primary function. no it's it's pretty accurate I mean you.

know I like if anyone ever asked me what. book should I read to understand. American politics I always encourage. them to read. any history of post-world where the. post-world War II National Security. State like the devil's chessboard. yeah it's great amazing book you know. because it's uh the other one that's. good is um. um it um are you there Vodka it's me. Chelsea by Chelsea Handler Where She. lays out the role of nation states in. the post-cold war paradigm.

but there's my favorite Foreign. Relations Scholars so anyway she knows. more about uh Espionage for someone that. spent as long as she did drinking. margaritas she knows a lot about Russian. politics and a lot about Espionage and I. commit as do many people in my business. many people who've spent their lives. talking about their penises on stage are. very good at counter Espionage I had no. idea counterintelligence they're very. good at it. um you know God bless them what's what. do you look at that as somebody you know. you participate in the country and you.

see Hollywood and you know what's going. on does what is I mean I tend to think. it is because Trump was kind of a. creation of Hollywood and they felt like. like you said in the beginning when you. turn your back on someone when it comes. from within it's much harder to accept. than when someone's always been outside. of that sphere but Trump is a creation. of Hollywood he was a Hollywood star the. biggest reality TV show of his era you. know uh but when you see people doing. your job you're a foreign affairs. correspondent to you know or an. investigative or whatever you want to.

call yourself when you see people doing. that on Twitter who have zero. credentials and they are you know actors. actresses comedians even some people. calling themselves journalists you're. you have taken real risks like you live. in Brazil because of the stories you've. broken. how what do you how do you deal with. that does that enrage you do you think. that's funny. well you know it's what's interesting is. I think I started. I think it I was trying to remember the.

trajectory of like my awareness of. you and how I came to know who you were. and I think it was probably like I don't. know maybe six months ago is probably. from The Joe Rogan show I'm not really. sure and then you started like. populating my social media feed like. this grilling weed that was just. everywhere I couldn't get away from it. and I remember watching and I was like. oh my God I didn't know there were like. comedians who were still funny I thought. they were just all like Jimmy Kimmel who. yeah you know like called Jared Kushner.

an [ __ ] or like Stephen Colbert who. like talk about how Donald Trump sucks. Vladimir Putin's penis like just sort of. like a slightly more crude version of. Nancy Pelosi like that basically has. become what mainstream comedy in the. United States is now it's complete it's. not only not funny it's pathetic it's. just like all fear driven it's like just. trapped in these you know like this most. stale and primitive orthodoxies. so I think that it isn't just comedy but. like every aspect of culture you see it.

with films now you see it with. um with art with with everything that it. has all become kind of corrupted and. contaminated by the Trump years in a way. that very few people have been able to. escape. and yeah watching any Hollywood you know. like Escapist thing like uh an award. show or whatever you're gonna hear the. same [ __ ] that you hear from resistance. imbeciles on Twitter Like There's No.

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ride v-i-v-a-p-s-y-c-h-o.com. now when you Julie Assange has been in. captivity for Matt or he's been held you. know hostage for 10 years I think about. 10 years. um and he's been psychologically. tortured and perhaps physically tortured. we don't know no one is calling this out. no no major media that I've seen has. really been defending Julian Assange and. we know all the reasons for that we've. listed them in this program already is. there any hope for Julian Assange is.

there any way that he's released or has. he been so broken at this point that you. know even if he was released it's like. they've they've kind of accomplished. what they were looking to do. um I don't know for sure I'm the last. time I saw Julian was in 2018 or 2019. when I went to London and spent three. straight days with him in the embassy. and he at that time was very lucid very.

cogent like in good spirits. um. but that was before he was in prison he. was still at the embassy although he was. looking very valid I mean you know he. hasn't been outside in 10 years right. like even prisoners and horrible. American jails get to walk around in the. Sun for like a half an hour an hour a. day Julian hasn't he literally hasn't. touched the Sun or seen the sun in 10. years he probably now has in prison.

maybe a little bit but when he was at. the embassy he was confined to a room. and a half almost for a full decade. so he was his health was suffering. um he couldn't exercise he had no son. which is a necessity. you know I the thing that angers me the. most about the whole situation. is you know as much as the media hates. me when I was doing this Snowden. reporting like in 2013 and 2014 and the. Obama Administration was getting very. threatening I couldn't leave Brazil for. like a year.

most of the media was on my side and. like defended me why because I was kind. of I had one foot in their world right. like I was at the guardian one of the. oldest newspapers in the last and then. in 2019 and 2020 when I did this. investigative reporting in Brazil that. culminated in the indictment by the. Brazilian government have made the. attempt to criminally prosecute me as. bolsonaro the President of Brazil. threatened to do for months most of the. American Media almost all American Media. in fact. manifested in my defense like the New.

York Times published editorials you know. denouncing it with Julian it's. completely different because he's never. really had even one foot. in that media click and they spent five. years flamboyantly. marching around like prancing around as. Defenders of press freedom because Trump. would like save some juvenile insult. about Jim Acosta or post some like mean. thing about Chuck Todd or Wolf Blitzer. and they would act like the first. amendment was imperiled and here you.

have an actual grave threat to press. Freedom the indictment that has been. unsealed that the Biden Administration. is now pursuing if it is if it succeeds. it will criminalize investigative. journalism the relationship that in fact. when the Bolson or government. tried to criminate Prosecuting me in. 2020 they use that as their model they. the theory that the US government is. using against Assange is the one that. the far-right government in Brazil tried. to use against me saying that my.

relationship between with my source had. crossed the line from past diversity of. information into an active role in The. Conspiracy to steal the information that. I was reporting which is exactly what. they're using against such so just out. of self-interest. you would think American journalists you. pretended for five years to be so. devoted to defending press Freedom when. it came to Mean Tweets about like blown. dry CNN douchebags would be protesting. and demanding Biden dropped the. prosecution but they're not they either.

don't know about it they don't care. about it or they're cheering at because. they're infantile and what really what. it really is about him is just it's pure. professional jealousy Julian Assange has. broken more big stories in the last. decade than all of those corporate media. drones combined right so. he is what they pretend to be and his. existence kind of holds up a mirror. showing what they really are like why. isn't the CIA and the FBI and the NSA.

devoted to imprisoning like Wolf Blitzer. and Jim Acosta or like New York Times. reporters it's because they're not. [ __ ] threats to anybody right they're. servants. so the fact that they're doing it to. Julian demonstrates who the real danger. is who are the when you look at the. politicians like AOC and people like. that or whether it was Bernie Sanders or. you know the woman with the brain injury. it's forgets Marjory Taylor green who. are the who are the people that you and.

I don't know that she has a brain injury. I'm speculating that she has some form. of autoimmune disorder but it is. entertaining and I have no problem with. it I think middle-aged women should go. off a little bit and that's the. disagreement I've had I think women. after they can't have children should. get a little flighty and nuts you know. and a little offensive yeah quite. honestly. I like believe that what do you think's. happened to gay people let's talk about. that for a minute because it's not fun. anymore it's moralism I have to tell. people how to live it's very hard for me.

to take balls out of my mouth and then. tell people how to live I don't feel. like it's my job I like going to Florida. and eating shrimp but now people want me. to go to libraries and talk to children. and help them realize who they are it's. not my job and I don't care so what what. is this it used to be kind of fun and. now it's become this really office. politics bureaucratic uh you know very. uh language driven kind of like it's. weird and strange and I don't understand.

it and I don't like it. it's really sad like whatever is shitty. and cringy and repressive and weak about. liberal politics. it finds its like lowest point like it's. Zenith in gay institutional politics. right which is really sad because like. we're basically the same age I think. you're like five or ten years older than. I am obviously how old are you when. right how old are you. 27 how old are you 16.

so you're wrong yeah so. you're right I stand corrected so like. I'm a little older than you yes I know. you know like when gay politics was. subversive by necessity Harvey Mills. radical yes interesting yeah like Larry. Kramer AIDS activism yes Andrew Sullivan. to a degree as well. yeah I mean Andrew Sullivan was kind of. like ironically the sort of like yeah to.

be the Catholic conservative. conservative that's why I like uh. Caitlyn Jenner you need someone you need. someone in the community that just. really likes the Country Club. yeah well and you all you all want like. constrained in captivity but to be free. in your expression of whatever you do. but what it but ultimate like the. politics are more radical and. interesting you know we kind of went.

from Like Larry Kramer to [ __ ] Pete. bootage right you know that's like for. me the trajectory yes but also. the the what's really happened for me. like in terms of the you know you're. talking about the reversals before on. like foreign policy and imperialism with. Rachel maddowell and culture or whatever. it's also taken place culturally you. know when I was growing up the people. who wanted to control private behavior. and culture was the right you know like. Jerry Falwell and the Moral Majority. like the transgression came from the.

left like Sinead O'Connor ripping up a. picture of the Pope on Saturday Night. Live. and so the left always was the. culturally transgressive movement of. Liberation it came out of the 60s. obviously as well like the Summer of. Love right like hippies and all of that. the Free Speech movement as well this is. completely reversed. the cultural left in the United States. has a longer list of rules for how you. can date how you can [ __ ] how you can. like feel sexual attraction for somebody.

then the [ __ ] Pope has with his. encyclicals like we have all this like. formula for who you can date in ages and. like what you have to do and they want. to control everything everything is. abuse everything is harassment. it is it it's like watching this Mirror. Image where they have all become this. like highly repressive movement that is. unrecognizable to me except with. reference to what the Evangelical and.

Christian right was in the 1980s right. it's all become and even the pushback to. the pushback is boring I I don't like. I'm I'm like also it's like you know. trans women weight lifters I mean I know. that's an issue but I I can't care about. that on either side I just don't care. about the Olympics and I I don't care. about any one man or woman who competes. in the Olympics and I'm not saying it's. not a nice thing to do but I just. personally I don't care I find the. Olympics to be sort of a large waste of.

time for me personally I know that other. people attach meaning to it and that's. fine but for me I don't care at all if. you know I don't care that uh you know. but but it has gotten to this very weird. Point there's just exhausting all of. it's exhaustive the left is the right is. exhaustive it it you just get to a point. now where nothing is new we have the. same conversations in a circular pattern. over and over again that's why Trump was.

sort of exciting because at least there. were there was this there were these new. conversations happening now they're all. insane the people with Q Anon were. clearly lost their minds and Russia gate. as well what do you make of of of how we. come out of this pandemic how do you. think. personal freedoms and and and kind of. this Alliance we see now between big. Tech and big Pharma and health policy. and and these very powerful wealthy. people like Bill Gates how do we emerge.

from this pandemic uh do we emerge much. like we the same as before or are we now. kind of on the road to. um. a technocracy where decisions about your. own body decisions about your own health. decisions about all kinds of things. sexual freedoms are all going to be uh. somehow uh strongly suggested and or. enforced by government policy.

and I think the the coveted pandemic is. clearly the most transformative event of. Our Lives you know the only thing that. probably competes with it is the 9 11. attack but I would say. it it it's probably going to be much. more enduring and consequential because. it operates on so many other levels. you know I remember going back uh to. like March or April of 2020 when the. lockdowns first began and we were all.

social isolated and told we couldn't. leave our homes and all those. celebrities were saying stay at home. the idea at the time was people have. forgotten this you just have to do that. for a few weeks the idea is you have to. flatten the curve right like you have to. prevent the Health Care system from. being overburdened and collapsing so you. want to make sure the coveted cases kind. of stream out in a way that's manageable. so you just stay home for a few weeks. maybe a couple months. and then that will enable the Health. Care system to gain its footing and then. but then of course like the lockdowns. quickly turned into something much more.

protracted than that and back in you. know. March and April of 2020 it was obvious. to me there was like a a taboo you know. like Trump was saying and I think Boris. Johnson was as well uh before he almost. died of covid that look you know yeah we. want to make sure people don't get. coveted but like locking people in their. homes for months of the time is going to. have its own huge costs it's going to. destroy the economy right which makes.

people sick it shortens people's. lifespan it causes people to be. depressed it causes mental health. illness there was already huge increases. in mental health pathology in the west. every indicia of like suicide depression. anxiety disorders addiction alcoholism. everyone was already skyrocketing before. the pandemic happens then you take. everybody and you you kind of exacerbate. all of the deprivations that modern. society is imposing on people the lack. of connectivity the lack of purpose we.

don't have like churches anymore or. synagogues or labor unions or like we. all live in these tiny little right. isolated hubbles right where we were. with with really unfulfilling jobs. that's what's causing these mental. health pathologies people can't get. married until they're like 40 if they. get married at all. um they have to live with their parents. so this exacerbated everything and I. interviewed two help uh mental health. experts Johann Hari and Andrew Solomon. and they both said this refusal to take.

into account the cost on the other side. of the Ledger from lockdowns isolation. and like is mind-boggling because. probably it's going to be at least as. significant as the number of deaths are. debilitating a effects from covid and no. one wanted to hear that you weren't. allowed to do anything other than. singularly focused on the danger of. covid and it reminded me a lot of like. the first few years after 9 11. you know the reason why mostly I began.

writing was because there was this. Obsession on safetyism like oh my God. we're so scared of terrorists we're. ready to dismantle our entire system of. government and our culture and our. constitutional proporter in order to. protect against it when the whole time. even at the height of terrorist activity. in like 2002 2003 the chant is that. you're going to die of in a terrorist. attack if you were an American was less. than literally the chance that you would. die by getting hit by lightning or like. going out to dinner and eating some.

contaminated food and dying evidence it. was always radically exaggerated but by. forcing everybody by scaring the [ __ ]. out of everybody basically it turned. Americans into this like completely. submissive acquiescent population so. that conservatives who like four years. earlier were like don't come in onto our. land you know we're gonna use our guns. to you know we're like meekly taking off. their [ __ ] shoes at airports and. doing whatever they were told you saw. this like compliance that came from this. Collective fear. and exactly the same thing happened with.

covid but so much worse not only did. people just stay at home for a year like. my kids you know missed an entire year. of school like think about what that's. going to do to you know hundreds of. millions of kids around the world. um but also Tim you know I think what it. really did is it centralized power in. the hands of already. like you know basically. omnipotent institutions of authority so. that you are no longer allowed to even. question the pronouncements of fauci or.

the World Health Organization or you. would be banned from the internet right. everybody was happy with that everybody. was fine with that even though they. proved so often to be wrong and then you. had these corporate giants like Amazon. and Google and you know Walmart that. Consolidated their power so much more as. small businesses just died everywhere. and so now the whole country is like a. country of surfs and renters. who work for like a handful of tiny. corporations with no competition.

everybody's enslaved to these like. monopolistic authorities and has been. trained to obey Authority more than ever. because they've been convinced that it's. the only way they can survive so. politically culturally psychologically. and in every other way I think the. enduring effects of this are going to be. much deeper and much uh longer than than. people realize right now. zero grams of sugar. 13 to 14 grams of protein only four net.

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your uh junk. and he was such a nice guy. he was very nice I was shocked. when I met him. and he he had a real good. Spirit about everything because he. essentially told me that I was right. about everything that I had said but he. didn't want his wife or kids to know but. he pulled me aside and he said I've. killed so many innocent civilians. children women men.

animals. dogs cats he goes I've just killed. everybody guys I don't really bring it. up. because I did it and then he looked at. me and he goes and I wish I could do it. again I want to do it again he goes I. wish I could do it again. sheathunderwear.com promo code Tim to. save 20 he was very nice. he brought his whole family in there in. Denver you met him yeah he lives in. Colorado he has a militia. in Colorado he has some militia he's. getting ready for the race war. sheathunderwear.com use code Tim.

20 he says he's starting with his family. and training them he hopes to get other. recruits uh for the race war. sheathunderwear.com. um he said he's been preparing for it. for years but America is finally. catching up in his words. so it's very exciting. it's very exciting he said he's putting. them through you know kind of a regular. kind of like basic training. and then getting them like you know. doing weapons training and getting them.

proficient and. you know to different types of. uh hand-to-hand combat. as well as kind of more of a strategic. assault plans. for um. the upcoming race war again according to. the owner of sheathunderwear.com which I. would absolutely go and buy the. underwear sheathunderwear.com you use. code Tim to save 20 percent. uh his wife is a lovely person.

she also uh is planning for the race war. she's. cooking and getting little little lunch. Lunch is ready for everyone. so that they can. take them she's also a violent. psychopath with a gun I don't want to. ever I don't want to make women feel. like they're not but she is she did we. talked about that she was cooking and. kind of. um just putting putting together uh. packages for the for the for the boys to.

have while they're on the road. cleansing is what you said it's her. words not mine. sheathunderwear.com no seriously they do. love comedy these people I met them they. love comedy it's great underwear if you. like the show you want to support us. support them support people that like. comedy and defend comedy. sheathunderwear.com use promo code Tim. to save 20 do you ever look back at. events like 911 where we took 15 pages.

or 17 Pages out of the 911 Commission. report uh to protect Saudi Arabia and. things like that and we you know people. on the 911 Commission have said that it. was set up to fail and push and Cheney. would only testify in a closed session. together sitting next to each other. um do you think there's anything more. that we should know about that day and. I'm not suggesting that it was like. um this you know a massive conspiracy. but is there something do you think. later on down the line we will find out.

things about that day that surprise us. or Enlighten us to a degree. foreign. I mean you know I think you kind of have. to pick and choose your battles as like. a public person right yeah there's. certain things that you fight for and. then other things you say I'm gonna. leave that alone right so we all like. find that energy and whatever but here's. what I will say is that. why is it tell me someone tell me why it. is I've been asking this question for.

years and no one has an answer that. 60 years after. the assassination of John Kennedy 60. years. most of the files in the CIA about that. event are still classified like we even. though everyone involved is dead right. what conceivable rationale is there for. continuing to conceal that and you go. back throughout you know all those. assassinations that you mentioned about.

the 60s even into the 50s there are. things the reason is is because this. permanent National Security State that. you had asked me about earlier that got. constructed in the wake of the U.S. victory in World War II and that was. designed to at least nominally combat. communism in the Soviet Union which also. became strengthened after its victory in. World War II. that it has done so many things. to that that would shock people if they. learned about it that it would shatter.

the foundations of people's confidence. and Trust in current institutions today. even though all those people are alone. dead so I don't put anything past the US. government. in all of these big events you know. there are like why don't we know whether. the FBI had informants in the three. groups they claim are behind the January. 6th Riot the three percenters The Oath. Keepers and the proud boys it's. inconceivable that they did it right of.

course they were monitoring those groups. we know that the leader of the proud. boys had already served as an informant. to the FBI these questions just nobody. wants the answers to these questions. because once you start digging too deep. into those questions it becomes. impossible to function almost you have. to and me and Joe yeah me and Rogan. talked about it where we said you look. at even these you know antifa rides you. saw cop cars that were just left there. you saw pallets of bricks on the side of.

the road like it did seem like uh you. know you with the capital right you saw. a cop opening the gate to let people in. it does seem like at the very least uh. there are forces that want these things. to happen that want chaos that want. these things to descend quickly into. chaos and that the result of that will. be people that are more compliant. um and and you look at that and even. with you know the Blessed Marathon. bombing the FBI knew who these two guys. were and Russian intelligence said we. told you who they were then the FBI I.

came out admitted we knew who they were. they were allowed to travel back and. forth to Dagestan you know so there was. this idea that they were potential and. also they also went and like interviewed. one of the closest friends killed them. um and killed them like yeah and you. know they were like six of them and they. invented some [ __ ] story about why. they did that yeah which is probably. they just didn't want him talking and. they just whacked him just got rid of. them it's like a mafia state. yeah and I mean you know.

you look at you know if you look at if. what are the effects of January 6 the. effects of January 6 are that. the Capitol Police got two billion. dollars more. because the Democrats voted to give them. more there's a new domestic war on. terror that there's a new war on terror. the same one that we had for the last 20. years after 9 11 but this time directed. inward domestically at quote domestic. extremists all of those agencies right. like who else scares Americans Putin.

doesn't scare Americans Isis is gone Al. Qaeda is old they're all like old. villains on their last legs you need new. scary threats in order to justify The. Continuous growth and and bureaucratic. power and and budgets of these. institutions and now you have it you. have right-wing. [Music]. extremeness white supremacists whatever. you want to call them very similar do. you know people forget that like after. the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995 which. also has its own yes of course yeah I.

knew and all that immediately arose a. very similar narrative like on the cover. of every magazine Time Magazine Newsweek. goes into where I was like white. supremacists militias are this huge. danger and this is when the internet was. first starting to emerge as a real force. in American life and the Clinton. administration's primary demand. in the wake of Oklahoma City was to have. backdoor access to all encryption so. that nobody could ever use the internet. to communicate in a way that was off.

limits or Out Of Reach from the US. government each one of these incidents. always strengthens the power centers. that. are constantly involved in some way and. you could just write it off and say. maybe they're just incompetent they just. kind of know in advance about all of. them but they don't figure out what's. going on they don't know how to stop it. or you can like look at the history of. what these institutions actually do and. take a more jaded view of what's more. likely right that some of these events.

are being actively encouraged because of. the consequences and who they benefit. are are people like AOC do you think she. gets and I already kind of see it. happening where she gets folded into. kind of the mainstream. of American political culture and then. just kind of becomes everybody's. favorite girl boss. she you know it's funny uh when she was. running. against Joe Crowley in that Primary in. 2018 but no one who knew who she was.

one of my colleagues at The Intercept. Ryan Graham who like has his pulse on. his finger on the pulse of like the. left-wing of democratic Politics the. left wing flank. I remember he like emailed me he said. hey you know there's this candidate I. think you're really going to love her. um and you know she could really use. your voice like supporting her and I. went and looked and I was like she was. saying all this like radical stuff and. it was during the. war with Israel and Gaza like one of the. 10 000 Wars but it was an outbreak of.

violence at the time and the Israelis. were shooting gazans at the border just. over a fence like just randomly shooting. at them and she went on Twitter running. for congress in New York. and said it's time that my party the. Democratic party stopped overlooking the. human rights abuses of Israel and I was. like all right she sounds good right so. I interviewed her and if you go and. watch that interview that I did with her. it went viral at the time like that's. when people started really knowing who. she was.

you won't recognize her like it's a. completely unrecognizable person the. person that I interviewed and then. championed from the person that she's. become and it reminds me you know it. like I I was friends with all those. MSNBC hosts I used to be very good. friends with Rachel Maddow like when she. was on air America and then even when. she first got her MSNBC show same with. Chris Hayes and in 2011 Chris Hayes. wrote a book before he got his MSNBC. show called Twilight of the elites. and the main thesis of the book is that.

Elite America has failed it has no more. claim valid claim to Authority and his. argument was this concept he called. cognitive capture which is that Elite. institutions have become so perfectly. constructed that anyone who enters them. and immerses themselves in them. inevitably not likely or usually but. inevitably will become co-opted by them. no matter how well intentioned you are. when you enter them no matter how.

resistant you think you are to their. pieties the reward system that they have. it's like a perfectly constructed. psychological [ __ ] of your brain right. that no human being can resist it's just. been perfected over so long and I. remember I asked Chris in that interview. that I did with him. well you're about to go have an MSNBC. show what are you doing to prepare. yourself. to inoculate yourself against this and. he's like I don't know I haven't really. thought about it and you can see the. effects of the fact that he was telling. the truth so you put AOC in Washington.

and you tell her hey you know. you want to be on this committee that'll. give you like a lot of like social media. viral moments where you get to like snap. at some like banking executive or. whatever we'll put you on that committee. as long as you shut the [ __ ] up about. the attacks you're doing on Nancy Pelosi. and our donors and as long as you've I. you know I'll tell you this is actually. what has changed my view you know my.

husband. is a congressman here in Brazil he ran. for City Council of Rio De Janeiro in. 2016 and one and then remember the. federal economy 2018 now he's a. congressman so I see it from the inside. what happens like he was raised in this. you know like really poor slum in in Rio. de. Janeiro's friends live there. exactly exactly very good I I just I. there's people that aren't worldly but I. am and every now and then I want to let. people know do you ever by the way I'm.

Gonna Let You continue but have you ever. uh encountered the Brazilian wandering. spider there fanitrius Farah. yes we lived in this like uh. kind of you know like Forest area of Rio. on the top of a mountain and frequently. those things are [ __ ] terrifying it. would enter our house and. um I would have to call somebody. who was not my husband or myself to go. kill them. um all right continue with the concert. yeah so anyway so he grew up in a favela.

he like he like actually you know he. like entered politics because he. actually cares it's cute he like yeah. seriously he doesn't think of it as a. career he like really wants to help. people's lives improve or whatever. so he'll have like a bill that will like. allocate like I don't know like say a. million dollars to build some Community. Center in the like Favela so these kids. right who are like eight and ten have. things to do and don't get recruited. into drug gangs like actual things that. will help you right and then he'll go to. the like the scumbag leaders of the.

Congress who control what gets on the. floor and I'll be like can you help me. get this. you know bill on the floor and they'll. say to him yeah we'll let your bill come. up for a vote and we'll even like make. sure it passes. but we need you to make sure that you. and your faction Vote for This corrupt. giveaway to our funders and lobbyists. like we'll do a deal you vote for this. and then you're suddenly in the position. of like. do I stand on principle right you know.

and just say go [ __ ] yourself and then. get nothing for the people who sent me. there to help improve their lives and I. get to feel good about myself but do. nothing or do I make that compromise and. then like the more you make that. compromise the more you get sucked into. that system and before you know it you. no longer want to distinguish between. what's really the compromise and what's. not what's the way around it it just. seems like human nature has kind of. inherently flawed and that no matter. what system you set up. um you're gonna have something like this. you know I mean you could get public.

money out of politics I mean good luck. that seems like a good idea but I mean. then you'll just have you know the. Epstein and the jizz Lane you'll have. like they'll always be kind of ways. there'll always be things people want. that they can't have that are provided. to them there's some illicit uh and. they'll always be controlled you know. when you look at the Epstein situation. how many elected officials are. blackmailed bribed owned controlled you. know with sex with drugs with. things that they did cheating on taxes.

businesses they had years ago like how. much how big of a scope do you think. that is. yeah I mean it's hard to say right. that's one of the things that never got. investigated because of his unfortunate. and tragic suicide in prison yes and you. know I think. um. you know human nature if you just look. at history like human nature is a really. ugly thing right and so it's almost. impossible to construct a politics or.

human institutions that aren't plagued. by these kinds of pathologies. on the other hand we do as humans also. have this kind of. capacity for compassion and empathy. because we're political and social. animals we do have a kind of better side. that can be appealed to. so I don't know I I've kind of come to. the conclusion that what humans really. do need is is leadership like strong.

charismatic people who they follow who. are going to be imperfect who are going. to do dirty deals because that's just. the nature of how you wield power. but who just on balance are going to. make things somewhat better and I think. that's the most of what you can ask for. and hope for yeah it's a very. rationalist view do you like Brazil will. you stay. oh yeah like the first time I ever came. here. um. it was I I got here. like at night I woke up the next morning.

I was in Rio with my partner at the time. and I told him I was like after we. walked around for two hours I said I. seriously like am concerned that anytime. we have an opportunity to travel I'm. never going to want to see any other. part of the world I'm always going to. want to come back here right it just. like spoke to me it like resonated with. my soul and now like you know we're we. have a life here like my husband has a. political career we have two sons who. are both Brazilian very Brazilian. um and yeah I love it as much as I ever.

have it's like it's just a very vibrant. fascinating. eclectic like culturally like really. um. Innovative country like there's really. nothing else like it it's like Austin no. um it's a joke for my listeners but uh. we're we're in a dump we're leaving. um Joe Rogan convinced us to move here. to a swamp. um do you have you ever gone to the. Amazon podcaster he's in Fear Factor guy.

he told us to all move here and then we. came here and it's like there's like two. restaurants and they suck everyone's. there's just 10 people attack people. they don't even it's like tech people. they don't care about culture they're. just eating like macadamia nuts and and. sitting there in their Estates trying to. figure out how to choke the remaining. freedoms we have out of us and they. don't care and they you know they did it. to the the bay area where it's like you. know it's just kind of a boring you know. who cares and the cities all go to [ __ ]. because the resources are sucked out and.

you know given to condo developers so. they can build you know um you know high. rises with floating bathtubs and then. you have all these problems what do you. what do you make of like have you been. in the the Amazon the Amazon's always. fascinated me I've always wanted to go. there. I mean I haven't spent you know lots of. time there in a way that like I can say. anything meaningful about it besides. what you read about it I mean I've been. there twice for a couple of events. um but yeah like it's just the kind of. it's like what it makes you realize is.

that you know there there are people who. live in the Amazon who are tribes that. have no contact with the outside world. yes that are just very pristine and and. and detached from The Matrix. I saw one of them on tick tock. where is now are these people just. completely uh and they'll be killed. right with diseases because they have no. immunity. well I mean kovid started entering.

because one of the things of Baltimore. government is doing one of the ways. Baltimore won was he got funded by the. like Lumber industry and right Agri. businesses that want to cut down the. entire Amazon and sell it all off for. profit so they're constantly invading. the Amazon they don't give a [ __ ] about. the indigenous people who live there and. they did they one of the things they did. was bring covet to a lot of those. indigenous tribes then as you say don't. really have they have no Health Care. system and they really don't have much.

of an immunity because they've been. inbred for so long not to need it. because they're not exposed to tons of. bacteria and viruses like the way we are. so they had a much higher death rate um. a lot of these tribes did from kova then. non-indigenous people yeah and that's. unfortunate are you planning on making. any trips to the United States or you. can are you working on a new book are. you what's the next phase what's the. next thing for you are you gonna start a. podcast cast to build a social media.

Empire you can be an influencer where do. you think the next Journey takes you. well I'm doing some modeling obviously. um that's always been a big part of what. I've done and I love it it fulfills me. yeah yeah I know I've seen you at shoots. yes. um no well I was like I said I was I was. supposed to be in Austin literally today. we would have taken you for dinner it's. gonna be the first proven how bad it was. I know yeah yeah that would have been. great um but I'm gonna I'm gonna be I. just had to cancel for logistical.

reasons that are too boring and annoying. to go into but I'm going to be there a. little bit yeah I'm gonna start. traveling again I don't miss traveling. um you know I'm I'm my sub stack has has. you know excited me it's been a big. success and. um I'm I'm also gonna there's like I'm. really interested in the only things I'm. interested in are things that exist. outside the binary like outside the. Matrix that outside of that like dreary. Left Right fighting yeah those are the. only things I listen to those are the. only things I'm interested in they're. the only places I'm going the reason why.

I go on Tucker Carlson show is because I. feel like that is an example of like. something that's politically and. ideologically header Paradox it's why I. think Joe show has been successful yeah. you know um and you know like Crystal. and soccer that whole world that's where. I assisted so I'm gonna I'm about to. actually go to a new platform I'm gonna. stay on substack but I'm gonna do a kind. of new video platform that's not YouTube. that I'm going to announce soon where. I'm gonna do a bunch of like video. programming and bring some people with. me we're gonna do a bunch of interesting.

stuff. um yeah so it's just it's so funny. because when I left the intercept I did. it very precipitously it was the thing I. created I was there for seven years and. it provided me a ton of security and I. like quit in 24 hours with no planning. and it was just the best [ __ ] thing. that ever happened like just the. Emancipation not just like not no longer. needing to be captive to an institution. but just psychologically you know like. there's never a moment anymore when I. think maybe I can't say this maybe I.

can't talk about this because of the. need to appease that world because I've. just not only cut myself off from that. world but then burned it down to the. ground as I left. so yeah I mean I'm just very excited by. you know the opportunity to there's like. a growing ecosystem of people who want. to do interesting things yes and I just. want to keep being part of that well. you're you're welcome here anytime Joe. loves you and will uh you know that's. open invitation like people like you are.

very important they're rare ad for music. comedian funny is always found in the. gray areas uh in the the uh you know the. non-binary or whatever you were saying. the non-heterodox uh not in the. non-binary that's actually they don't. love funny over there but I mean in the. political non-binary in the in the in. the spaces between things because I. think that's where you get the greater. truths right I think the the goal of any. comedian or journalist is to like hit a. harder truth than the one that's right. there for the taking I think the one.

that's right there for the taking. um is shallow and if you're good at your. what you do you're trying to reach for. that deeper thing but where can people. follow you if they want to support your. sub stack. yeah so it's just that and we've been. trying to get Katie Herzog. unsuccessfully deep platform from sub. stack because she called me a fat goon. and I've written letters and we want her. off every social media Katie Herzog. who's America's uh final lesbian the. last lesbian that we have but uh that's.

hate speech fat goon is hate speech all. right continue I'm gonna get her I'm. gonna get I'm gonna get her kicked off. for you thank you she actually she. actually got me trending on Twitter for. 48 hours as a transpho because she wrote. an article about how lesbians are. disappearing because they're all. becoming trans men yes and I cited that. in connection with my discussion of this. new Gallup poll showing that like. everyone in the universe now identifies. as like clear and I'm buying yeah none. of them are gay none of them are good.

none of them are having sex with anyone. it's primarily online. it's amazing they're like obsessed with. sexual identity and yet despise sex it's. like the most asexualized even though. it's all constructed around this crazy. identity I know and we love candy we do. lovely abusive we love Katie. she got me like trending she didn't. [ __ ] Trend I trended even though like. I was only just citing our article. anyway so I'm totally behind whatever. Auntie Katie hers are yes perfect you. have it we'll help with that if ever I.

can platform for her I want to like. um ruin her life really so people can. find me at greenwell.substack.com. obviously on Twitter I'm going to be on. the Tim Dawn show a lot I'm just gonna. with that myself on periodically I think. I pretty much animate myself on this. time. um yeah so I'll be around yes. um say say hello to my friend Ida is. such a huge Glenn Greenwald fan she's so. upset that you're gay she would move to. Brazil and live with you uh so just. shout out Ida say Ida tavakoli she's.

Persian she's always talking about the. Iranian Revolution so if you you could. shout her at that would be very very. cool for her. just say hello Ida. I I know there you go see there you go. through she there it is and what are. these dogs just before I let you go I. mean why don't you put the collars on. them that [ __ ] they uh that uh stuns. them and shocks them and shakes them or. drug them I would I would sooner put a. shock collar on you Joe than I would on.

I mean a gym then I would on them. um I've paid good money to have a shock. collar put on me uh well I know I say. that because I heard you liked it yeah. that's the only reason I would do it. Glenn greenwalded sub stack go find him. very good we we we appreciate you coming. on thank you very much for doing this. good talking to you Tim thank you.