When Fandom Turns Toxic: The Traitors Fallout

We're going to talk today about. I don't want to say traitors culture. wars, but we're gonna have to say we're. gonna have to deal with the fallout from. this show because it continues to. rumble. >> The patheticness of. >> the patheticness of Yeah. >> I don't want to say anything about. patheticness here, but we are also going. to be talking about the growing. phenomenon of Disney adults, a. subculture that not only won't die, but. continues to thrive and expand. >> Yeah. And we're also talking about a. report saying that a majority of younger. people watch all of their television,

all of their content with subtitles on. And what an interesting phenomenon that. is, where it comes from, and uh. >> how it's changed TV. >> How it's changed TV. >> Yeah. >> Right. Go on. Let's do it. Traitors. Culture Wars. >> Yeah. So, I'm I'm obviously I missed the. um uh your final wonderful Traitor. reaction that you did with Tim H cuz I. was doing the Luke Lner show. By the. way, hello Manchester. We had such. >> fun. It was brilliant. But your your. reaction thing was brilliant. So, I've. got a few things that that I wasn't able.

to say then, but let's talk about the. the kind of. >> this just absurd aftermath. As soon as. anything is big or important, everyone. wants to chime in. >> Can I just begin with a happy story? If. No, I I don't It's not even a happy. story. It's a happy rumor, isn't it? I. have to say that the report that Kenny. was seeing leaving Myers flat, I just. want to say I would be 100% here for it. I couldn't be more here for it. So. that's that is a potentially nice story. But then of course they had the unclo.

episode and there were some no shows to. that. Michael Sheen did a sort of dial. in. He was unable to be there for work. I think my jama wasn't there for work. >> Yeah. James Acasta wasn't there and. because of everything that happened um. people there's been a huge amount of. focus on that. Um. do you want to get into it? >> Yeah. Come on. What do you want? >> The rest is entertainment is presented. by Octopus Energy. Now some of the most. playful characters in family films do.

end up dealing with surprisingly serious. material. >> Yeah. But whether it's Muppets or. puppets or cartoon characters, occasionally the very silliest of. on-screen presences can carry the most. serious of messages. >> Well, sometimes that's what the entire. film is actually about. >> If you look at a film like The Muppet. Christmas Carol, >> and I've looked at it probably 30 times. in my life, >> but actually a genuinely and. tremendously moving version of that. story. >> The Muppets you can always rely on to. hit the emotional notes. If you look at. something like Inside Out, which of. course is essentially the emotions of.

Riley and such a beautiful piece in that. when Joy is desperately trying to keep. sadness at bay and the story of the film. is is is that Riley needs sadness and. Joy in the end understands that. And. this is a family movie and it's teaching. such an incredibly valuable life lesson. >> Yes, the playfulness never really kind. of gets in the way of the serious. material. >> Octopus Energy's mascot is an enormous. pink fluffy octopus called Constantine. Now, energy is a serious business, but. Constantine gives them a rather more. colorful way to talk about it.

Okay, so we know spoiler alert the show. was run by Romesh and Bash and both of. them by chance because there were many. other charities available uh chose. refugee charities to split the £83,000. between and um sections of the media um. the broadcast media and you know even a. couple of Tory MPs hi have got really. angry about this and think it's a a. stitch up some form of BBC bias it.

shouldn't be coming from the license. fee. I, you know, >> we will be talking all of those things. Yeah. Turns out a lot of those people. are idiots. >> Or it's possible they're very clever and. they have an agenda. Listen, it's one, it's definitely one or the other cuz. they ain't right. >> It's a huge sort of, you know, try and. make a Rav about BBC buyers. Other. people are sort of thrilled. >> But how can it also to to accuse the BBC. of bias in this in some way is shows. firstly a fundamental misunderstanding. of how you make a television program. I. mean, a fundamental misunderstanding of.

that, which I presume they know, perhaps. they don't. >> Oh, I don't think they even know that. >> Yeah. But your but you know, your point. of everyone chose a different charity. I. mean, >> what they're really if what you're. actually saying is if someone goes on a. BBC show and wants to give their prize. money to a refugee charity, the BBC. should say no. Yeah, >> that is absolutely bad. If you do want. that, that's absolutely fine. But just. explain the the former words. >> Then you're voting for bias. >> Yes. because. for the BBC to be biased, >> but but if you've got a line for them to.

say to anyone who wants to be on a TV. show, you cannot give money to refugees, here are a series of things, you mustn't. give it to the lifeboats. Uh if you have. a line that's that's useful and legal. and then great, let's let's absolutely. have it. If you think it increases. plurality of thought in this country, then uh then fantastic. But do please be. aware that what you are requesting is. that the BBC is formally biased. >> rather than saying two out of 21 people. are not allowed to have as their chosen. charity a refugee thing which you know. upsets you but listen for lots and lots.

of reasons to do you know maybe with. your upbringing could be all sorts of. things. >> It's called freedom. Look it up. If I. can diffuse it for one second it is a. game where that you don't know who will. win and quite obviously other people had. other charities and they published all. of them. Right. >> Yeah. Yeah. So there's Great Orman. Street, um, Tamworth Cancer Support, Joe. Lysa. I presumably these would have all. been acceptable. Red Cross, Alzheimer's, UNICEF, Hospices, >> Blue Marines for James Blunt, >> hemophilia, those people didn't win, but. they could have.

>> I know. But yeah, other than the fact. that the BBC fixed it so that those so. the two refugee lovers. >> Yeah. could get. >> Yeah. >> £41,500. each. I I have to say this is even in a. conspiracist culture, this is 125. >> You know what? I'm done with it. It's. genuinely so pathetic. 15 million people. watch that. Let's say a thousand people. are being [ __ ] about it. Yeah, that's. like that's like being in a in a. Championship football games. 15,000. people watching 14,999. cheering and just one idiot who's not.

happy. >> Unfortunately, a lot of those idiots. work for EGB News or whatever it is. I I. mean, I feel like surely, you know, you. can give money in a in a in a capital as. well to whoever you wish. And I found it. hilarious. So GB is more annoyed about. this than they were about that Thai. based crypto billionaire who gave the5. million pound gift. It's still under. investigation to Nigel Farage. Yeah. And. then later gave 37 million pounds to his. party. I I. >> give money to whoever you want to give.

And I tell you what, be incredibly. popular and successful and then go on a. hugely successful game show and then be. the smartest player on that entire show. and show empathy and show gameplay and. show intelligence. Then you can give. money to whoever it is that you want to. And you don't have to be telling other. people who they give money to. You don't. know who Ramish and Bash give money to. all the year round. Yes. You know, look. at the benefits Ramish has done all year. this year. Look at the different people. he does benefits for. If he wants to. give money to the refugee council, that's what he does. >> What have you done? I would say to the. people, what have you done.

>> exactly? Don't jump on the back of a. show that's made by incredibly talented. people that has been a hit, which is not. something you've been able to do in your. lifetime. And the second you do, you. will find that things change for you and. you will find that you can then demand. things and you can find that you can. change culture in the way you want to do. it. Until that moment, you know what? Just let other more talented people do. the thing that they want to do. Let. people be free. Let people think freely. because that's what you're supposed to. think about. And I'm really sorry that.

two people who wanted to give money to. refugees won this show. But that's the. world that you are living in. Different. people think different things to you. It's okay. >> Stop wetting your pants. >> Stop wetting your pants about. everything. Stop saying, >> "Well, it all comes out of license fee. money." You are. You cannot be that. stupid. >> You cannot be that stupid to to not know. that Traitors makes a fortune for the. BBC. This is giving huge amounts of. money back to the BBC. This show, this. is not something that's a drain on on.

license fee payers. You know that you're. not an idiot. You might you work in the. media. You you know, you might work at. the Daily Mail. But but you but you know. that you understand that it's 15. million. This is the thing I'm tired of. 15 million people and because of the. absurdity of our culture now and social. media, we have to listen to these. people. A it becomes a story because. four people say it. There are. 14,999,9996. people who watch that show go that was.

fun. That was entertaining. Oh that's. nice that they gave their money to to. that. What should we watch next? That's. what traitors is. It isn't anything. else. And the fact that you have to get. columnes and clickbait out of just. co-opting this thing. Stop co-opting. other people's work. Stop co-opting the. fact that other people have done. extraordinary things and made something. and made a series of correct decisions. about what people want and have done it. brilliantly and suddenly it's a hit and. all you can do is go.

I mean, [ __ ] off, you know? But really, [ __ ] off. >> Wow. I am so pleased to find you off. your fence this Monday morning. It is I. love it here. I Yeah, I It's It's. ridiculous. But you see, it's a actually. it's a function of It's a function of. two things. One thing much more that. journalism is on its ass if this is the. actually only way. You don't go out, you. don't try and find stories. You can find. anybody saying anything on social media. as we know. Um and some things a lot.

darker that never become stories. Um, and to choose that and to make that the. sort of headline is so pathetic. >> Yeah, someone's had a hit and millions. of people in Britain joined together and. enjoyed it. Okay, that's not a big. enough story for you though. So, let's. turn it somehow into someone hating. somebody else. I am going to put a. slight so my slight caveat is that it is. partly a function of how. >> they reacted to how this show played out. because without any and you know and.

>> let's if we get to things like James a. cast of not being on on cloaked after. the final and and not being really. mentioned on it um there is fallout. clearly and there are you know lots of. sort of behind the scenes things that. certain people are not happy with studio. Lambert and there's kind of behind the. scenes dispute. And we'll see how that plays out because. I think it will continue to rumble. But. um equally. when I'm thinking about James Acasta, you know, he his girlfriend and his. parents have been doorsteped.

>> It it having to sort of talk about he. obviously has had some sort of crisis on. it and having to talk about it. I mean, do you have to I don't know. >> When I was watching this, I have to say. that I did think and and thinking about. the reaction and how it's been playing. out. I see what's happened here. In. incredibly short order, this show has. become a classic modern fandom. >> Yeah. >> And that means there are. >> minority but so vocal aggressive.

elements. They're obsessive. They. attempt to manipulate the thing that. they're a fan of. We see this in all. fandom, all kind of the kind of very. definitive modern fandoms. They want to. possess it. They want to control it. They defend it. They might defend it, but they derive some kind of identity. from it. And you see it with Marvel. You. see it with K-pop bands. And I'm just. thinking, oh my god, traitor stands are. becoming the worst. Okay, it's a [ __ ]. game show. It's a game show, right? >> And but how tell me how this is. different to Star Wars where people went. nuts about The Last Jedi and were like,

I don't like the casting. I don't like. how the story played out. >> Their behavior was nuts. Was absolutely. nuts. And what Star Wars did was they. bowed down to it and they pandered to. it. And the next film, The Rise of. Skywalker, an unbelievably bad film, was. effectively made by a committee. They. got rid of the type of interesting, you. know, they got rid of like I mean, there. were people who had real kind of. loathing from the extreme Star Wars. stands. And so, Kelly Marie Tran, she.

didn't return for this. It It was so. awful. They just pandered to it. completely. >> again. and we're pandering to the one. loud person in that stadium of 15,000. people all of the time. >> I totally agree. And what happens in. these very very hyper evolved modern. fandoms is that the fans feel like, oh, my emotional investment means I get to. make decisions. I own it, not the. creators. You know, there's a whole and. it's betrayal narratives which are, oh. my god, the another one of the worst. elements of modern life. Um, you know, they have destroyed the thing we love.

Don't be so pathetic. Okay. So, this is. >> although by the way, they made it. Yeah. They made the thing that you love, >> but it doesn't matter. They think they. own this beautiful game. Um, and so all. the other thing that's part of all these. kind of fandoms and um and indeed modern. life is conspiracy thinking and the idea. that there's there have been coverups. and there is a little bit of it as I was. saying on Friday when I was talking to. Tim about this. There is a thing with. any kind of reality show when people. become literate about the format and.

therefore instead of not being able to. see the cuts and the joins and things. they can see a little bit more than they. did and so they see the hidden hand and. they become suspicious of it. >> But for me the endless sort of grievance. of it is a game show. I mean it's so. preposterous. Is it a game show? >> But also as so often in life spend a day. watching how that show is made and it's. not a group of evil people saying how do. we manipulate this? It's like, oh my. god, how do we make this as entertaining. as possible for everybody? >> This thing has happened. How do we tweak.

it so that the next thing, you know, I. mean, >> how do we make that story clear? >> Yeah, it's a it's a live and ongoing. organic incredible creative process that. resulted in without any question the. biggest TV show of the year. So, and I. again another part of those kind of. fandoms is factionalism because it goes. without saying that most people loved. it. And I just think it's interesting. that this show is so successful and such. a phenomenon that it has happened in. very very short order because this is. only as we know the second edition. You.

know, 13 months ago, we'd never seen any. of it. Yeah. >> Um and it's amazing how quickly that has. evolved and how it has become something. that's so emblematic of the age in which. we now live and so emblematic of types. of fandom and tiny subsections of. fandoms who are basically pretty. monstrous. I've said time and again on. our reaction episodes that James Acaster. is my favorite comic and he is and he's. one of my favorite people as well. is. just a glorious human being and this not. the environment well just lots of things.

happen where you think oh that's a bit. uncomfortable but do you know what it's. okay. >> can't people be interested in. everything's okay experiment like treat. life with interest and say gosh how. interesting you know I do actually. remember talking to Kate Phillips who. runs the BBC's programming before this. show you know obviously she would never. give you even the hint of a spoiler it. was months before and she'd watched the. series and she said it's So interesting. how this one plays out. It's so. different. >> Don't you want things to be interesting.

and surprising and to reflect things. about whole world and you know to. reflect that some people can't actually. handle the game and that different that. the celebrities are different. >> that people are wired differently and. the human beings are different to each. other and it just teaches I always. >> it's just it's a knockout. >> I remember with with Big Brother people. always go oh they're all awful. You go, if you're watching these 16 people and. you think they're all awful, >> there's only one awful person here and. it's you because. >> there's there's stuff there. If you're. an empath or a human human being who. likes other human beings, you can find a.

bit of fellow feeling. Yeah. Listen, and. it's it's ridiculous even talking about. it because every single person listening. to this agrees. We all know that. We all. know it. >> I think a lot of people are on are. borderline now because because you get. whipped up by it into this thing like I. think lots of people listen to this. would be like no no no they have broken. the game. They've done but honestly but. I'm I'm just saying to those people I. get why you're saying that. I really do. But think about, you know, just from. that a different perspective, which is.

something extraordinary happened. The. thing that we want to happen, which is. that everyone is talking about a game. where people pretend to murder people in. a really camp Scottish cast. I mean, please, this is it's sort of amazing. This is no stakes. Don't worry about it. Nothing is nothing bad. >> I mean, what it is is sport. >> Yes. >> That's all it is. And any sports fan. knows this. You just have opinions all. day long and none of them matter. And. then and then you go to Morrison's. >> Yeah. >> Because but you know what I mean? You. move on with your day. But if you're in. it, so if you are James or someone who's. in it, I imagine at the moment you'd.

think, "Oh, do you know I wish I hadn't. done that because now so because. everyone can have one opinion about this. today." James then has to listen to 56. million opinions, you know, and like. nobody needs that. And. >> thing with him, he's so brilliant and so. talented that whatever he does next. will, you know, supersede this in a. heartbeat. but you know just annoying to. have to spend a couple of weeks sort of. in a position where you feel slightly. destabilized. Um but um if anyone who if. James if you're listening or people who. know and love James we love you. Uh and.

um I I'm very excited for what he does. next. But it was it was listen it was a. weird series because it started with the. energy that the previous series ended. with which was incredibly heightened. Everyone went into that I think slightly. with their their energy was vibrating. slightly too much and the next. >> you're standing on the threshold of. becoming a national treasure. >> Yes. >> And it and and because of Alan Carr's. unbelievable temperament, >> I can gallop through this being not only. the best entertainment booking on this. show, but I'm also going to win it. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> I mean, you have to respect the work. Um, and I think that he made it look. easy and funny and it's clearly very. psychologically, you know, for certain people pressurizing. >> Yeah. >> And definitely it's psychologically. pressurizing what's h happened. afterwards because when anything is the. biggest TV show, >> even though you can protect it as much. within the confines of your edit of the. format and all of those sorts of things, you can't stop people going and knocking. on the parents doors of contestants. You.

can't stop all of these. So, you could. stop that happening. >> Yes. >> The people doing it. >> Yeah. >> You could you you don't have to go and. knock on people's doors. >> No, I think. >> I know you do have to if someone if. someone's paying you. >> Well, there's certain there's certain. Yes. There are certain things in which. it's very very important. Half of. journalism comes from people just trying. things like that. And. >> I have to say on something like this, it's like, okay, this is really maybe. your time could be better spent. But um. but that's up to them. Um, but it's. people now know that and the people that. sign up next year will have seen two.

different versions of this play out. >> I think the next year is going to be an. absolute solid down the line gameplay. version of this show. >> I think it's going to be you know what, let's this is not a big lifestyle show. that that is like it's just let's play. the game. >> Yeah. >> Uh and you know certainly when you talk. to people about who they're looking for. and looking at, it's like no, let's. let's just get back to basics and have. just an amazing game of the traitors. Yes, but we also we have the civilian. version coming in January. That's great.

>> Which we will all love and I'm told that. it's great fun and it's it's Yeah. And. quite camp. >> Yeah. My my reading of it is from both. sides from the from the the people go on. and people who made it that this is a no. fault situation. I just think that. series of things happens where this. becomes quite a difficult show for. people in certain ways and the way you. have to make it. Uh, but the way you. want to be on it, I just it's one of. those things where you go, I've seen it. a million times on a million shows uh. and it passes by and and the few weeks. afterwards, you talk to anyone that's on. traders, they always say the aftercare.

is amazing. Um, but you know, you talk. about it for a bit, you know, the. WhatsApp group goes on for a bit and. then it ends and you're all moving on to. something else. It's just this is so big. that it feels incredibly intense. >> at the moment, but it won't be. My my. big message is, oh my god, what a 15. million people in the same country. watching the same thing, talking about. it. How beautiful. What a beautiful. thing. That's everything that. entertainment is supposed to be. And I I. wouldn't want that message lost in the. absurdity of people trying to make money.

out of this thing that they could never. have created. >> Yes, there's an there is a slightly. parasitic element to that. Just like. living off the back of the the host host. hit. >> Yeah. instead of just saying, "Oh god, I. wish I was that talented." Which I hope. is what we've said a number of times. Yeah. About that show. >> Well, with that off our chest, shall we. have a little break and then talk about. Disney for adults, which is. >> fascinating, I would say. >> See you in a sec.

>> Welcome back everybody. Now, just before. we get into Disney Adults on Thursday, we have my interview with Sylvester. Salone. >> Cannot wait. >> Oh my god, there's some really jaws. But. there's a driveby on Steven Seagal in it. that g I I literally felt I was getting. Stanhal syndrome when you you're. overwhelmed by the beauty of something. It was. >> Was it was a driveby from him or you? >> No, the drive by. But you know, I uh.

obviously was able to add to it. Provoked by a particular. >> He's already dead. >> Yeah. Yeah. He's fighting in chairs now. So that's Thursday or or um Tuesday for. our members. But listen, Disney for. adults, Marina, tell us all what is a. Disney adult, please. >> A Disney adult is a sort of again, it's. a sort of subculture. It's somebody who. spends money on Disney experiences and. merchandise and holidays and fandom in. general independent of having children. It's not families. It involves visits to.

the parks, going on the cruises, fashion, cosplay. I'm writing saying. that 37% of people who go to the Disney. parks go without children. >> Yes, it it it's enormous. I'll give you. a little positive history of it. In the. 80s and 90s, um, adult nostalgia began. to be sort of commercialized a bit by. Disney. Um, but in the 2010s, it sort of. becomes an identity like lots of things. And consequently, like lots of things, it is loathed by sections of the. internet. Um, and there are more and. more of these um Disney adults. And.

there've been, I mean, there have been. whole books written about this. Disney. love them because they are worth. billions a year to Disney. Now Disney. experiences we remember Parks and. Cruises or Disney Experiences is that. they call it as the as the commercial. division makes more than twice as much. as Disney's entertainment division every. year. It is absolutely massive and you. need the entertainment in order for. there to be things that people come to. the parks for. They they're sort of. symbiotically related but it's so much a. bigger part of their business. Disney. Experiences makes 36 billion revenue a.

year and that 10 billion of that is. profit and Disney outlets are worth a. lot more to the business. >> What sort of things would would that be. in terms of experiences? like it it's. holiday homes, it is cruise ships, >> parks and cruises, it's going to the. parks, you're staying in the hotels and. the parks and they stay in the fancy. ones cuz they want to, you know, >> and there's there's lots of very very. very premium services that you. >> there there are special experiences, you. know, bolt-on things where you have a. private meet and greet with one of the. characters. There are you're going to.

get the premium cocktails, the the smart. restaurants, you're going to the more. expensive ones rather than like let's. just get the burger on Main Street with. the kids. On all the Disney cruise. ships, there is one suite that's built. into the funnel, which is the most. expensive suite, and that that can cost. you tens of thousands. >> Yeah. And it's not you're not taking. your kids in that. Forget it. >> Yeah. You're not taking your kids in a. funnel. >> No way. And they The great thing about. Disney adults is that they visit several. times a year. It's not the whole sort. of, oh, do you remember the time you. went to Disneyland holiday that you. might do with your children? They buy a.

lot of merchandise, not just on. Christmas and birthdays. And you know. this term that you hear a lot in. business or particularly in things where. you need people to keep coming back. Lifetime customer value, they stay. customers for potentially a very long. time. And there's a a lot of talk now. that they're becoming more valuable to. Disney than families with children, which is sort of. >> incredible. To give you sort of a. flavor, I'm just going to give you like. one person who I think was quite. interesting. The New Yorker had an. article that I read um a few months ago.

and it was about this woman. She went to. college and she had, you know, much more. freedom and she had $15,000 in her bank. account. I think there's something more. psychological going I'm going to get to. the psychological elements of this later. and we both are. I know because it's. you've got to think what underpins this. She enjoyed the freedom of college. Did. she? Okay. But she start she started. taking solo trips to Disneyland. She. went six times in two years. She is now. deep in debt, but she just keeps getting.

more into debt because she's she wants. to go back to the parks. >> In terms of who they are, they are well. educated. They tend to skew left. They. are heavily in the 25 to 44 bracket. Um, and they tend to be women, but not not. there are lots of men who do this as. well. >> So, shall we unpack what I mean, what do. you think's sort of behind it? >> It's fascinating. I mean I mean my kind. of route into this was they've come up. with their first story living by Disney.

resort. So they've had little. communities before but this is. >> celebration. There's another one the sea. one. I can't remember what it's called. >> And funny enough I visited it last year. >> Uh and it's called Cotino near Palm. Springs and it's right up in the hills. of Rancho Mirage. I will say this if. you're interested in buying there. It's. very very windy. I will just say that. And everyone who lives there knows that. that plot of land is very windy. But. it's homes which are from 1.5 million to. 3 and a half million and and more. In. fact, it has like a country club at the.

heart of it which a lot of those. communities there have. But the country. club is a voluntary country club which. means that uh you don't have to join it. but it's got like a enormous lake and. water sports and all the restaurants. right at the heart of the community. Uh. and after you bought your three and a. half million pound house, you then have. to pay. >> $20,000 to join this club. And then if. you want the whole family to join, you. have to pay another $20,000 every year. to be in it. So people are very very. happy to take all of their life income. and put it into a community like that.

>> How did you do this on that trip and not. discuss? >> Well, cuz when I went to see it, it. hadn't really been built. So all I was. really seeing was construction fences. >> You know, I would have talked to you. about that for a long time. Well, have a. have a look at it online because because. the map of the the resort itself is. amazing because it's sort of it's got. all of these rows like called Brilliance. Drive and stuff like this and then it's. got the incredible lake and then in. between you've got these kind of what. look like green areas and I'm like oh. that's interesting is that sort of. lagoon and then you look and it says. future condominiums like oh okay so okay.

I got it. >> first we build it then we ruin it. >> Yeah exactly. Um so where does it come. from? I mean for me the idea that that. you could live in these things it come. it comes I always think lots of our. culture is explained by the fact that we. whenever we don't feel safe we revert. back to the last place we felt safe and. I think for a lot of people that is. Disney for some people we see it on. Facebook all the time with pictures of. Britain in the 1950s and 1960s and for a. lot of people their childhood as the. last time they felt safe or or you know. when they when when they're in a family. and so we revert to type all the time.

every time we're frightened by anything. at all and Disney it feels to me that. that's that written a very very large. scale which you know we remember sitting. and watching old VHS's of Disney films. and you know we were with our mom and. perhaps she's not around anymore and you. know we didn't have any bills to pay. because we were 8 years old and so I. think it's it's it's a very very. deepseated need to go back into the. cocoon. >> yeah to escape and regress and it's. really I've said this before but it's.

relevant again here cosplay started. um in Japan in the immediate wake of the. 1990 financial crisis when people had. this massive sort of in institutional. failure and they retreated into a world. of childlike simplicity and you know and. this kind of adult cosplay grew directly. and explicitly out of that. When people. say, "Oh, we live in an infantilized. age." I wonder why, you know, why why do. we why do people want to go back to sort. of childlike forms of safety all the.

time? It's obviously because they feel. that. >> there is a some form of community there. The things that are missing that there's. some kind of clarity and simplicity here. there that they need. I think one of the. very interesting things about this is. that people who've looked into it. conclude not not all people who've got. but are like oh no no Disney invented. Disney adults and then they said it as a. label and they've c I don't believe they. literally invented it I think it started. organically but the second they saw it.

happening oh I'm going to turn this. business away you know they've. cultivated it. >> and once something becomes an. identifiable thing and think something. that people can identify into to say oh. that's me that's who I um you know why. lose the customers after childhood. It. was obviously always assumed that you. lost customers in the Disney business. from the age of about I don't want to. say like 10 because obviously there are. other entertainment products that you're. selling them during that that but you. sort of. >> the stuff that the parks are built up.

although they've built the some more of. the teenage stuff into the parks now but. you kind of lose them after childhood. and then they come back to make memories. with their own families you know a whole. generational sort of cohort later. >> why they don't they don't want to do. that So, but it's growing and they love. it Disney and they are now the the big. question is at what point do they you. know become more valuable to um the the. parks and the cruises and everything. than families in a way it was always.

there. I was reading about this. There. was a 1954 article about the Anaheim. Park um which is the first part. Disneyland um and they that article. ahead of it opening said oh we expect. four adult visitors for every child. Now. if you do the family maths that means. that they always envisaged. >> adults and in a way theme parks and all. kinds of fairgrounds and things are a. form of escape and that you know and. it's like or even going right back to. these things like I don't know frost. fairs or whatever people used to have.

like hundreds of years ago. There's a. sort of moment of leaving things and. people say this about festivals. You. walk through the gate and then suddenly. the normal world doesn't count anymore. and you're in a kind of mad fantasy land. for a little bit and you get to forget. your cares and all of those sorts of. things. And they all theme parks have. always encouraged that. They want to. build and you know they call them. imagineers at Disneyland Disney World. They want to build these kind of. alternative realities where things are. simple and. >> well that's this whole casino this this.

um this resort. It's been made by the. Disney Imagineers. Uh, and if you want. to buy a house, by the way, um, you. you'll get a call from a a member of the. Disney sales cast. And you're like, "Okay, amazing.". >> Yeah. Okay. Okay. Let's let's let's do. that. Uh, and you know, the technology. in the water to turn it blue is some. sort of, you know, registered trademark. technology. And it's it's it's a it's. it's a fantasy land. And my my personal. view is why not? >> And my personal view is what a mental. world. I don't offer financial advice as.

you know. I would advise not getting. deeply into debt to do it. >> Yes, definitely do that. Yeah. No, sorry. Definitely don't do that. >> I don't know. I would advise getting not. getting deeply into debt and my feeling. about that girl who got went to college. was that actually she was finding. elements of her new freedom. >> difficult and therefore this was a place. to retreat to rather than this was. emblematic of her new freedom. >> She went back to her old friends. >> Yeah. Mickey. >> Yeah. >> Donald. >> Yeah. >> Is Donald, isn't he? >> Yes. Donald is Donald is very much.

Disney. >> By the way, can we just stop for what. literally one second as a sidebar to say. this makes billions and billions this. this company Disney and this whole. empire built on the single worst piece. of IP in the history of IP, which is. Mickey Mouse. >> You absolutely hate Mickey Mouse, don't. you? >> I mean, but what's to not hate? I'm not. I'm not throwing shade on him, but but. he isn't anything. >> Yeah. What's his character? >> Yeah. Who is he? >> What's his character? >> Yeah. Well, you know, you I can't give I. can't give you three. >> even in some TV shows that where you're.

like, "Okay, there's certain shows that. it doesn't matter what the character. like, you know, I love Line of Duty, but. please tell me what please tell me what. their characters are." Like, you know, she's tough, no nonsense, gets the job. done. Right. That's it. Okay. And there. is. >> He's He's trying to hide a Scottish. accent. >> Yeah. And he once had a neuropen. addiction, right? And he wears waste. coat. The end. Okay. But it doesn't. matter because the show is completely. compelling. He has a character um. Hastings. Sorry, I don't know why we're. talking about Line of Beauty and Mickey. Mouse. I don't know how this happened.

But yeah, I couldn't tell you one. characteristic that Mickey has. Is he I. don't know. I want to say cheeky, but. he's not particularly. >> He's got a high voice. Okay. >> Yeah. He's no Huey, Dewey, and Louie, Donald's nephews, who you know are. cheeky. >> Oh, they moved on to some great stuff. Oh, yeah. I mean, they really did. They. very quickly moved on to some like. brilliant characters. But Mickey, I'm. >> I cannot tell you his character. But by. the way, I love Disney. I'm a big big. fan of it. I'm so looking forward to. going to the parts of my children. >> But if someone but if someone bought.

that interview tomorrow, if you're in. any kind of company that makes IP and. someone says, "Yeah, I think got. something you're rather going to like. He's a mouse. He's got big ears. He's. got a really squeaky voice. What else?". >> This is how when he fell out of. copyright, no one wanted to do anything. with him. Everyone's like, "What are. they?" Oh my god. You know, Steamboat. Willie, the first thing of um Mickey. Mouse, that first kind of black and. white sketch, it was a shaky animation. You've probably seen it. When that came. out of copyright, everyone's like, "Anyone can now exploit him." And. everyone's like, "No, you're all right.". >> Yeah. He's no good.

>> Like, do what? Like nothing. But it's. amazing to build something off the back. of that. That's all. I mean to build. like one of the most amazing companies. in the world without any question that I. am endlessly endlessly fascinated by. >> And suddenly you're buying a $4.5. million house because of. >> because of something that grew out of. that. >> Okay. >> I think that wraps us up on Disney. Adults Richard. >> Yeah. Other than to say you can buy a a. a crystal castle for $250,000 if you. want to. >> How big is it? >> Oh, it's a model. It's not an actual.

castle. No, I can't actually live in. Elsa's frozen castle for $250,000. >> Not in Elsa's Frozen Castle. In Catino, you can the the the club room is is the. house from um The Incredibles 2, if. that's helpful. >> Wow. >> Oh, can I say, by the way, this this is. my final thing on Disney. Uh at the um. the Artisan Club, which is the club at. the heart of Cino, the Disney resort, there are a series of classes you can. do. Uh you can do the you can do Moana. breath work. That's the thing. These are.

all adults doing this. Uh you can do the. Encanto Latin dance cardio. >> Okay. >> Uh the incredible super circuit. You can. do a villain era power sculpt Maleficent. edition. And you can do stitch and. splash. >> So all the castes are even Disney. themed. The more I talk about it, the. more I quite like the idea of it. >> You know, >> when you go back, you go quite you go. almost annually there. I think you need. to go and see how it's taking shape. >> I'm going to next next year I'm going to.

uh um Mickey Mouse. Oh, just sit around, do nothing. That's the class. It's. interesting that Yeah. They're not going. big on Mickey. >> Yeah. >> And there's a reason. Now, the last. thing we want to talk about interesting. um statistics came out of Yuk last week. about subtitles. >> Yes. Um there was a poll on how much. different age cohorts watch TV with. subtitles. By the way, Netflix say. something like 50% of people in the US. have them switched on all the time. It's. over half now in in the US. >> Well, in 18 to 24 year olds, 53% watch.

it. This is this is yuggv. And then it. goes 25 to 34 year olds, 46%. Then 35 to 44 year olds, 35%. 45 to 54. year olds, 24%. You can see which way. this is going. And you can see which way. it's going to end up. 55 to 64 year olds. 20%. 65 to 74 year olds 22%. Oh, it's. creeping back up. and 75 year olds plus. 31% because by then it just gone here. >> Yeah, it's fascinating. It is something.

finally bringing together young people. and old people their their love of. having subtitles on on the TV. >> But it's fascinating because when I was. young subtitles were two things. They. were an accessibility feature. Yeah. >> Or they were pretentious. Yes. Because. it meant you were watching some kind of. check animation about this or that or. you were like some you know sinast or. whatever. And now and lots of people. listening to this will know we all know. that younger people watch everything. with subtitles on. And so the question. is how did that come about? What does it. mean for how we make content as well? I.

think as far as I can really tell. there's all sort of theories that say oh. it's cuz kids are watching loads of. anime which is not quite right actually. cuz more people watch anime dubbed than. than they do subtitled. I think the real. place that it started was when Facebook. started turning off um sound on its. videos as as as its kind of default. So. its default was then to play videos. silently because you know kids are. watching on screens and kids are. watching in public and what have you. And that seems to have been when all. content creators, short form content.

creators started using subtitles just. automatically automatically generated. And so a generation of kids could just. were used to watching that content in. that way. And it and uh then we multiply. that by certain things that have. happened in the film and television. industry in terms of how sound now. works. And we find ourselves in this. position now where all young people. watch with subtitles. >> Yeah, it's really it's definitely. interesting. I'm trying to think of my. memories of I remember the first time I. heard of people watching subtitles and.

they were watching it because they were. watching DVDs and that's a big part of. this story too which we'll get to. But. they people were watching I remember. someone telling me they watched the wire. with subtitles because they couldn't. understand. I remember feeling that was. politically. >> dicey in some weird way. I remember. feeling like was because The thing with. a wire is the dialogue is unbelievably. brilliant and it's quite dense and it's. quite important that you follow it and. you someone with a very strong Baltimore. accent you're missing bits that you know. are important. So actually I'm.

immediately go you know I just want to. make sure I'm not missing anything here. >> Yeah, I agree. And actually that's a. huge part of people why people say they. do it especially young people is that. they help it. They think it improves. their concentration because it focuses. them on that screen almost certainly. there's another screen in their hand at. the same time. um and it helps them. better understand the plot. >> I definitely think it's partly a. function of acting style which has. unbelievably changed. If you watch. certain um brilliant dramas from the. '9s, >> you're dealing with a lot of actors who. are projecting much more. Sound.

recorders will now say, "Oh, actors. don't project anymore." And they say. because they don't need to. >> Yeah. And it's naturalistic. They call. it mumble core, don't they? And that, you know, if you look at something like. Christopher Nolan's films, if you look. at Tenet, they it's sort of deliberate. and you're not supposed to be able to. hear some of it. Sound recording in the. old days, you know, it it started you. couldn't even if one thing was. happening, another thing couldn't. happen. So, if there was gunfire, you. couldn't have anyone saying anything. There were some shots and then some. people said something. And um definitely. don't blame the sound mixers for things. like this because they are most actors.

on productions now use clip mics. They're called lavalia lav mics and um. they record much more bass. Um there are. in any scene there are thousands of. audio tracks or audio elements and there. are different formats for um cinema for. streaming for broadcast and obviously. our TVs and our laptops and certainly. our phones are not as good. >> That's the key. The technology that's. happened in television and film is. incredible. The technology in our.

televisions has actually sort of got. worse. You know, there's people who. watch TV without sound bars or anything. and and so everything is on the same. channel and that is not how it was. filmed. And so people who say. >> I'm sure people mumble a lot more. I'm. sure I can't really hear the sound. >> The good I have good news for you. You. are absolutely right. You can't. >> It's interesting. Yeah. A big and but. another big part of this that first of. all the well subtitling started in. cinema and gradually national public. service broadcasters followed and. everyone had their own national. standards and then when DVDs became just.

the phenomenon that they did and you. could have the DV you could put the. subtitles on that became very big and. then the streamers started doing it and. I think you can't really talk about this. story unless you talk about Netflix and. a big reason that it became the kind of. world's TV channel is because they they. they put they had all this foreign stuff. and people who were early believers at. Netflix were like what you going to put. foreign language things on and think. people will watch it. Well, they will. now. And I it's really interesting. I. remember by the time it got to Squid.

Game, which by the way is one of the big. Trojan horses of this where people are. like, it's a very simple story to. understand. It's I mean, the themes are. very basic of Squid Game. It's not. subtle. It's got those childlike colors. It's incredibly visual. And my children. didn't want to watch the dubbed version. They wanted to watch the subtitles and I. remember thinking which I shouldn't have. obviously let them watch the show. I get. it. I understand. Um but Netflix. obviously really wanted it because then. you can distribute foreign language TV. across all the territories. Um some of. the thing I'm really interested in is. like the international style guides of.

it all and how they sorry this is so. niche but I love it. Um you have to. decide when you're subtitling how much. text can appear. Yeah. >> How how conversations can be condensed. Um because it's a bit like being a you. know it is like being a translator. There's huge amounts of kind of ethical. and artistic decisions that really. brilliant translators take when they're. doing books and which we've talked about. those before. Um and so it was. standardized at first by Netflix and. they were like you can have 42. characters per line and you can have a.

reading speed of 17 characters per. second for adults and 13 for children. >> And then all the local countries ended. up pushing back and they said well we. don't actually do it this way. Um, and. we do it and it's we've you've ended up. in a situation where pe individuals can. slightly choose, but individuals rather. than countries now choose and you can. choose subtitles or dubbed. People have. become much quicker at reading them. because they're so used to it's weird. There's a thing where your brain. prioritizes visual over audio always.

And there's something about how the. human brain is hardwired that if there's. something happening, you will focus on. the visual rather than the audio. Comedy. is always the hard bit because there so. much of jokes is the timing and you. you've just you've just read the punch. line. Um it hard because we I'm visually. impaired also for me it's like oh Jesus. this is you know but they've got so much. bigger over the years as well which for. me is amazing you know subtitles I could. never have gone to seen a foreign film. the cinema and be tiny little text be. like white over someone wearing a white.

dress like they literally didn't give a. toss about people actually being able to. see it whereas now you. >> I don't think it would have been like. your street either. >> the sort of ones I don't know I don't. know some of them okay yeah. >> I could grow um but I think it's one of. those things that it feels to me like a. net positive. Oh, for sure. It's amazing that people. have discovered these these cultural. shows, these huge stories from other. countries that and the early believers. that people at Netflix actually I was. talking to a woman who was one of them. because she'd grown who's brilliant. She. had grown up in a dual language.

household. Her father's German and she. was like, "No, no, I think people could. get into this." And people were. thinking, >> "Right, you're moving into foreign. language telly." Because it was like. sort of like going off to be put out to. pasture. And she was like, "No, no, I. think this will be really big." and she. ended up running that for Netflix and it. was obviously it became a huge huge. deal. >> Yeah. But yeah, nothing puts us it. doesn't matter where a show comes from. now because we you know. >> completely and all of these things I. mean this is why people the ability for. young people to watch Kdramas anything. like that they simply do not care where.

anything comes from. The idea that you. would have watched you would have had to. be so pretentious when we were growing. up to watch a a Korean drama. I can't. even imagine who you would have been. Yeah, I was watching Frasier the other. day and they were doing a joke about. sub, you know, but that Frasier wanted. to see something because it had. subtitles and that was seen so absurd. >> Such a character note. >> Such a character note. Um, yeah. So, it's if if you've noticed it happening, it's not going to stop happening. Uh, and I think it's probably broadly an. okay thing, but I do think the. fascinating thing is that the film and.

TV industry in terms of sound is. recording things in such a technical. way. And now we've all got these. incredibly thin televisions where the. sound is just not very good. Richard, let's be honest. >> Yeah, it's just your phone is not as. good. Don't blame the sound mixers ever. >> Exactly. But if you are watching your TV. and thinking, "It feels like I can't. hear this very well and people mumble a. lot these days." Don't worry, you're not. getting old. That just happens to be the. case. Those are your television. speakers. Um, any recommendations this. week, Marie? >> I have. It is a documentary called SCTV,

The Greatest Show You've Never Heard of. I don't love the title because I have. heard of it. It's on Netflix. It's about. Second City, which is the. >> SC TV. >> Yeah, SCCTV. The Canadian sketch show. The Second City is the sort of improv um. troop that has various outposts. >> everyone's come from. >> But it this is the it's basically the. story of what I want to say the Canadian. SNL, but it's much darker and weirder. and it's in, you know, 70s and 80s. It. was made incredibly cheaply. I will, by.

the way, there's it's not perfect. I. would have wanted to hear more from the. writers, but this launched the careers. of. >> incredible people. Eugene Levy, Katherine O'Hara, John Candy, Rick. Morannis, Martin Shaw, Andrea Martin. I. mean, >> it's not about going, is it? >> It it just incredibly. and it's so fascinating. I love these. stories of these comedy shows that. develop in a very very specific um I. mean I as I say I'm I'm not a fan of SNL. and yet I will read every word in every.

oral history about it because I find it. so fascinating how they put these things. together and so I would recommend that. >> SCTV would you like to know a Martin. Short fact? >> Yes, please. >> Um you know Cla Short the uh the Labour. minister. >> Yes. >> Cla Short and Martin Short are first. cousins. Their dads are brothers. Cla Short and. Martin Short are literal are literal. cousins. >> I I can't what? >> Yeah. >> Why don't I know this? >> I don't know. It's uh uh Ingred found it. out and uh ever since I've said Do you.

know that Cla Short and Marty Short are. first cousins and no nobody knew? They've met up a number of times. They. go out for dinner. >> Oh, okay. I need much I will read a full. oral history of that. >> Okay. Well, listen. Uh we got your. Stallone interview on Thursday. A little. bit early if you're a member by the If. you want to become a member, you get ad. free listening, all of that stuff. It is. the rest is entertainment.com. We'd be very happy to have you, but as. always, you do not need to. And also, just a shout out to everyone on YouTube. who is watching us with subtitles.

>> By the way though, four members, uh, our. bonus episode this week is part of the. Bond series, and it is the story of. George Lenby. >> It's quite a story. >> See you next time. >> See you soon.