What Britain Listens to During Sex

Richard, you have um kindly agreed to. discuss sex playlists with me because I. I I want to talk about what people put. on their sex playlists and why. [snorts]. A deep dive, if you will. >> Yes, a deep dive. The economics of the. thing as well. We're also talking about. some amazing new polling uh about James. Bond, what the public think about James. Bond, who the public would like to be. James Bond. We're going to take a look. at that. And we're going to talk about. Ariana Grande who said that she's sort.

of stepping back from public life for a. bit and has been the subject of like. intense scrutiny over her weight and how. she looks and her health. And we're. going to talk about the difficulty of. all of that and whether people should. talk about it at all. >> I'm just reminded as well that someone. told me for definite who the new Bond is. the other day, but I mean that's. happened before, but I will uh I'll let. you know what they said. The rest is entertainment is presented. by Octopus Energy. Now, one talent can.

make a career. Three usually gets you an. official title. >> Yep. And that official title is a triple. threat. You call triple threat anyone. who can act, sing, and dance. >> Now, these days, three can seem almost. modest. The same person might write, direct, produce, and have another career. on the side. >> JLo would be a triple threat. Huge music. career. Started as a dancer, huge acting. career as well. It's an amazing talent. to be able to have. >> And now uh drinks mogul as well. >> Is she? >> You have to you have to be the mogul. Now I think the mogul is always the.

third thing. Now this. >> So she's a quadruple threat. >> Yeah. I I sing, I act, and I have a. lifestyle portal. >> But uh that phrase, all singing all. dances, it escaped entertainment and now. it's used for anyone and anything that. does several jobs very well all at once, >> which is a pretty fair description of. octopus. It's the UK's largest energy. supplier, one of the country's biggest. installers of heat pumps, solar panels, and batteries. And it runs a major. electric car leasing business for good. measure. >> I mean, that's a quadruple threat, isn't. it? >> That's a quadruple threat,

>> right? Sex playlist. Okay. For the. other, for some reason, I needed. something. I needed to listen to um Sex. on Fire by King Kings of Leyon the other. day, and I was looking for it, and I. noticed I was looking down. Wow, this. thing is on a lot of sex playlists. And. then I became slightly obsessed with all. of this and uh what like and so I want. to talk about like which artists really. really perform on these. What makes. Yeah. really perform. What makes a a.

song how they work? Um we could do a. little bit of the history thereof, by. the way, cuz I would like to talk. We're. going to go right back to ancient times. Okay. >> Oh, wow. Cuz I was I was going to go. back to Barry White. >> Yeah. Well, that's the later. That's the. later. Okay. Isan, a Greek orator, he he. made his Yeah. And he made. >> How can How are you making sex playlist? Unbeliev was immediately a classicist. take on sex playlist. >> Oh my god, I'm going to strip every. piece of magic out of this for you. later. Um, >> by the way, you wouldn't even allow me.

to call them sex tapes, which I think is. what they used to be, sex cassettes. It's now. >> Okay, they used to be sex cassettes, but. if you say sex tapes, people think it's. a different thing now. Okay, so you. can't say sex tapes. It's a sex. playlist. All right. Now, Isan said made. a speech against an enemy in which he. accused the enemy of having given into. the most shameful vices. He invites. women and flute players. Now, Plutarch. said the Roman tyrant sill. He picks up. this kind of partying style on military. campaigns. He has big erotic parties. Again, musicians, a lot of flirtists are.

flirtists. The first major sex sex. playlist artist. I'm going to leave that. one for our listeners to decide at the. end. >> Was it not just a euphemism? No, I don't. think it was. It wasn't actually. I. think I think that some of them were. multitaskers. Yes, certainly. And. perhaps particularly skilled, >> but obo players, that's that's a. euphemism. >> I I don't think they had any OOS. Listen, we can't get too stuck in. history. So, we're moving through Al. Green, Marvin Gay. >> They were famous obo sexuals, weren't. they in the in the classical world? >> Very. Okay. F. Let's just move on to the.

modern era. Okay. So, we've got Al. Green, Marvin Gay, Barry White. You I'm. sure you would like to talk about. >> No, no, no, no. You carry on. I'm. honestly I'm uh I'm I'm a student. studying at the feet of the master. >> Barry White. Okay. So he get he becomes. a soundtrack to a lot of people's love. He it's romantic soul. He's got that. deep baritone that he he called it sort. of sex and symphony but it was quite. anticipatory of disco because there. there are beats there. We're going to. get on to quite a lot of technical music.

stuff. >> Oh my god. You really this really is a. deep dive. >> Oh no. Listen. I tried to talk to the. people at Spotify about this. They did. not want to discuss this. >> That's so weird that they wouldn't. return that call. >> They returned it, but they didn't want. to get into it. >> Did they at any point say you have to. stop ringing us? [laughter]. >> They said I they are performing a. valuable public service in my view. I. don't think they should be ashamed to. talk about this. But if people won't. answer my many many questions, I will go. another way about it. And I spoke to a.

lot of people in the music industry. I. read a couple of medical papers. [laughter]. >> Wow. And I looked at what Spotify's. publicly available data, right? Everything changes. Everything has now. changed. But the last time we knew about. this, particularly from their data back. in 2015, it was the XX's intro that was. massive on sex playlist. Chat Faker, back then, Spotify said back then that. there were 2.5 million playlists which. were basically sex playlists.

>> Um, and but it was a different. aesthetic. It was a kind of indie. electronic minimalism. >> Yeah. Quite kind of slow loo sort of. thing. [clears throat]. >> It's now much more dark R&B. Um, and. there was a 2025 analysis of over 1,700. Spotify playlists which all said things. like sex or bedroom or romance or. shagging in the in the title. >> And oh my god, there is a massive artist. hierarchy on this. I will professionally. not tell you who is the far and away the.

market leader till we get on. even. though I sort of know who the market. leader is. >> Oh, you know who it is. Okay. But that. So, there's lots of artists that just. feature again and again and again and. they sometimes they have like one big. track, but a lot of them just have lots. and lots of different tracks in these. things. So, you've got things like two. feet that they're they're they're on it. a lot. >> I call them 24 in. >> Okay. Chase Atlantic. So, there's lots. of songs, but Swim is massive. Doat. Again, lots of songs, but Streets is.

massive. Arctic Monkeys, I want to be. yours. Bryson Tiller, don't like Montel. Fish, Hotel Drake, Teenage Fever, all of. these fish. >> Yeah, Montel Fish, Labyrinth, Mount. Everest. >> Okay. But there's lots of like Chris. Brown under the influence. Chris Brown, that is huge. Rihanna, I don't like to. mention them in the same paragraph, but. there you go. That so they're big and. still people like Massive Attack and. Porter's Head kind of do well. Um, but. way out in front like way way way with.

some with into the thousands of. appearances is The Weekend. >> The Weekend. >> The Weekend. Oh my god. >> He is miles and miles ahead of. absolutely everybody else. >> He's the default artist, right? >> Yeah. >> I thought that the uh that the thread. that ran through this just went Barry. White Prince the Weekend. Now I now I. recognize it's East Iskan Barry White. Prince the weekend but uh that. >> East is just telling you about Yeah. Yeah. They are the big four right. So. one of the girls is by far the biggest.

but also often high for this earned it. What you need anyway you could go on. because he just cannot the weekend gets. so much of this. Okay. [gasps]. So I find this all interesting but I was. trying to understand what made those. songs particularly work. So, I did speak. to a couple of actual technical musical. experts. This is the science bit. >> This is the science bit. >> I am removing every piece of joy from. this piece by piece. Okay.

>> I liked the whole of Britain all at the. same time going, you know what? I might. never have sex again. [laughter]. >> Sorry. Okay. Is there a magical sex BPM? Okay. The answer to that is not not. really. >> Sorry. Sorry. By by the way, is there a. magical sex BPM? Can that be the title. of the episode? Yeah. >> BPM, I should point out, is is beats per. minute. >> Yes. Yeah. Now, some commercial analyses. will say that between 90 and 130 BPM is. a good spot for a sex a sex playlist.

track. >> like blood pressure. >> Yeah. Yeah. [gasps] But it actually. actually what people think is it should. feel slower than its raw BPM. Okay. So. the than the raw BPM measurement. suggests it should feel slower. Now that. is achieved in various ways. >> Okay. Okay. Steady pulse. >> Tell tell us some of those ways, Marina. >> A steady pulse. That does very well. Um, a high rhythmic consistency. I want you. to listen to this now. A half time. >> I tell you what, now people are perking.

up. >> A half time groove. This is when the. backbeat shifts, right? So, it feels. >> not like Halime like you stop for for. like half an [laughter] orange. >> Like half time as in Yeah. Okay. >> No. No. You're not stopping at all. Right. You're [clears throat] not. stopping at all. We'll get on to how. they they make the arcs of them as well. later. You're not stopping at all at. half time. You've got um so this is when. the backbeat shifts. So it feels it. feels slower than it is, but actually. the tempo is the same. So it's.

structurally that makes it quite. hypnotic. >> Um and it has. >> That's also something you say I this is. feeling slower than it is. I promise you. I absolutely promise you that it's. actually faster than you think. >> [snorts]. >> I I accept that you're going to do this. all the way through and I understand. that I've forced this item on us and. that's absolutely fine. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Now, repetition. You don't want to. particularly have to pay attention to. this music. Okay. So, repetitive. arrangements are good. See is good. You. do not want any musical surprises to. take you out of your moment. >> Yeah. Bohemian Rapsidity for example.

would be I mean that's kind of cuz. you're constantly being distracted. >> Yeah. There's like six different songs. in one. No. No. Thank you. >> Also bit long. [laughter]. Well, we'll get we'll get to I I think a. lot of these people just don't even get. listened to. People are asleep by a lot. of these artists, but you know, you have. to be honest about the weekend and give. him his flowers. Okay, so the R&B is. obviously the standout genre. >> Um, so, as I say, the rhythmic density, so it needs to feel like slower BPM. Bass is key. Bass needs to be heavy.

>> Okay. >> The vocal, it's much better if it's like. whispery and close to the mic. So, but. weirdly people don't choose non-vocal. things. They don't do anything hardly on. these lists. People they want they. overwhelmingly choose vocals. They want. vocals and they like it close mic. breathy. There's a perceived Yeah. ASMR. There's a perceived intimacy. Um I mean. I'll be honest with you that the lyrics. are quite basic and route one. There's a. lot of you know. the titles are I mean really there's a.

lot of sweat swim with me fetish dirty. when we body or mind okay all of this. right. >> sex with me is really route one. >> yeah [laughter]. >> if you're having sex with somebody. >> yes it is quite but I think that in this. department you know there's there's not. that much creativity what I will say is. people avoid shuffle okay they like to. create an entire show show arc with. these things. So at the beginning it. might be you know something mood.

enhancing but you know by what do I want. to call this the back nine I don't know. by the back nine you you just won the. weekend. >> okay I understand I think if I can. >> shuffle is a terrible idea cuz you being. halfway through suddenly there's an. audio book reebus was driving [laughter]. across the fourth bridge. >> also by the way make sure that you have. Spotify premium because otherwise you. get an advert for screw fix in the. middle of. >> [laughter]. >> Wow. I Yes, we love you guys at Spotify, but I would have liked you to have help.

with me with this. Okay, so I read an. interesting medical paper on sexual. arousal and rhythmic synchronization. >> Your weak is so I will point Can I just. remind viewers that Marina is on. holiday. [gasps]. >> I wanted someone to ask answer my. questions, but when they didn't, I had. to find it out for myself. >> So some people did. The music experts. were very helpful and the record labels. were helpful. Okay, I I read this. interesting paper on it. Say they think. that music had an ancestral role in. courtship displays. Anyway, the thesis.

of this paper was that neuropeptide. vasopressin this is a social hormone. among other things that is associated. with attachment and responses to. partners again among other things they. have that has receptors in the bits of. the brain that is involved in music and. dance performance. That bit is called. the basil ganglia. Okay, >> sorry. The basil ganglia. >> Yeah, the basil ganglia. That could be. the show episode title. Its. concentration rises when men are. sexually aroused and they found that. rhythm synchronization seemed to have a.

significant effect on sexual arousal. They did conclude that more studies were. needed and I would, you know, read all. of those if they were. >> I will say I'll go out on a limb and say. I don't think more studies are needed. [laughter]. >> I think probably I think probably we can. get through the rest of uh human history. without uh. >> Okay. But there is also a Pavlovian. element to it that people describe which. is why they use the same playlist again. and again because actually it gets them. in the mood sooner and sooner each time. because you know the first chords of.

something by the weekend are like okay. right I know where I am now. >> Yeah. Then you're salivating dog. >> Yeah. Yeah. And so. >> use the Pavlovian. >> Yeah. It's the ringing of the bell. So. um anyhow so this is but this is a. massive massive thing. There are huge. numbers of these ones. Um people don't. necessarily because people like to make. their own ones. >> Um I wanted to talk a little bit about. celebrities and um the any ones who've. talked about it since this is an.

entertainment podcast as well. >> As well as what? Sorry. >> As as well as something about the Basil. Ganglia. [gasps]. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> The rest of Basil Ganglia. >> Yeah. They will have been pitched it. Um. now celebrities Jared and Ivanka, Jared. Kushner and Ivanka Trump. Oh no. Come. on. No, I know. >> Trigger warning. >> Trigger warning. But. >> literally their sex playlist is called. trigger warning. [laughter]. >> She had a. >> Ivanka has a lot of public playlists. Um. you know things like walk to work, running like holiday party 2015. And.

then this playlist emerged which was. just a 21inute playlist which was like. John Legend, Adele, James Blunt and. Bruno Mars. And everyone was like okay. let me have 21 minutes of pure. speculation. This is their sex playlist. Okay. >> James Blunt is uh that's a that's a. Yeah. Okay. >> Okay. Okay. Future celebrity traitor. star. Uh. >> yeah. Well, okay. People who have spoken. about it. Charlie Poot says he prefers. jazz or soul. And he's actually spoken.

explicitly and said these are the exact. people on my sex playlist. They're like. Roy Miles Davis. That's what he's done. >> Yeah. Okay. That's that's that's that's. more acceptable than uh who would have. thought that he would have a better sex. play this than uh Ivana Trump. >> Ivanka. Ivana's in the golf course now I'm. afraid. >> Um [laughter] yeah. Now um. the other people who've spoken about it, Kevin Jonas, he's got a podcast, you. know, the Jonas Brothers, he says his. playlist is just basically a lot of.

Michael Boué cuz his wife likes it. Okay. Which is not a stupid idea. >> No get it. And on that podcast, Joe, >> do do you think it's Do you think it's a. lot of Boo's Christmas stuff? >> It's not clear. He didn't specifically I. mean hopefully at Christmas. Yes. Um but. he I think you can make it seasonal. Um. >> but again, if you're on shuffle and. you're and you're halfway through and. suddenly it's beginning to look a lot. like Christmas comes on on August 4th. >> People don't shuffle these things. So if. you're on shuffle, you're an amateur, right? So Joe Jonas said, "But on this. Joe Jonas, this is.

>> Joe Jonas now said to Kevin Jonas, but. hang on. Your wife told me that I'm her. favorite man." and he was like, "Yeah, you're not on it." For obvious reasons, his brother's band is not on it. >> Yeah, I Yes. Yeah, I can see. >> Well, I mean, I'm not Yeah, I'm sure you. can. I'm [snorts] sure you can. Now, what I think is rather nice to to. conclude what I'm talking about is that. Michael Bubé reciprocated and he said, "Oh, yeah. I mean, mine is just full. Jonas Brothers all the way because he he. liked that he he had got a shout out in. in the old Jonas sex playlist.". >> In the old Jonas and it's called the old.

Jonas sex playlist. >> Yeah, I think that's the podcast name. Um, so there concludes my tour through. this. I mean, it's a genre. It's a it's. a a genre. The Weekend is by far and. away the market leader by a million. >> And the economics of it are huge, right? I mean, there's there's there's a huge. amount of money. We've talked before. about um about playlists and automatic. placement on playlists and how when. you're on one playlist, suddenly you get. put on five or six others. And as you. say, there's a lot of stuff on these. playlists that is going on after people. have fallen asleep. Yeah.

>> So, you're literally stream. Yeah, you're [laughter]. titled my sex playlist. >> Uh, and uh, yeah, so you're you're. literally making money while people are. asleep. There's lots of niche ones as. well, cuz I, you know, we all get that, you know, uh, The Weekend and all that. kind of stuff is the uh, is the cliche, but there's like heavy metal. >> sex playlists. >> Listen, I get it. It's uh, it's whatever. you want, which by the way includes. Glory Hole by Steel Panther and um, and. Sulfur Injection by Apostasy. I would.

never shame anyone for any of that. I. don't think. >> Oh, I'm not shaming anyone for anything. I'm just uh I'm just I'm just reading. out some funny song titles. >> Uh [laughter]. there's classical you talked about. people wanting lyrics and they're very. sort of close to the um mic stuff. There. there are loads of classical sex play. this as well. That's sort of nice that. those people exist in the world, isn't. it? Uh the the most popular one which. has got over a quarter of a million. listeners starts with uh I mean you. won't be surprised. No one no one. listening will be surprised with this.

starts with Chaikovsky's piano conerto. in D major. >> Sure. Of course. >> Absolute textbook stuff. There's also. one by the way called Lechmick in Ash by. uh Mozart which I have I I I've have not. wanted to translate but uh it's on there. anyway. Um cuz in the old days before. sex playlist cuz I can can we just take. it into a slightly cuter route for a. moment. Mix tapes used to be such a huge. thing. And I don't mean like mix tapes. in the in the kind of um you know uh.

dance scene, but that thing of making a. mixtape. >> for somebody on like a on a C90. cassette. And of course that's not a. thing that exists anymore, but I'm. assuming that kids are making playlists. for each other these days, making. curated playlists and sending them to um. uh hopeful paramores, right? >> I really hope so. I just I'm I'm I I. need to hear reports back of this, but. I'm sure they will. Yes. Yes. Every. every mixtape I made as a teenager might. as well have been called I think you're. more likely to go out with me if you. really understood how much I like the.

House Martins. >> That was essentially that. Um I've also. just just to put a tin lid on the thing. I've made the worst possible sex. playlist. [sighs]. >> Yes. >> If you want to hear it. >> Yeah. Oh yeah. I want to hear it. >> And it doesn't it doesn't include napal. death one second long. You suffer. [laughter]. So, this is my the worst possible or. maybe the most ironic sex plays you can. ever have. Uh, Mr. Soft by Steve Harley. Are you in by Incubus? Oops, Little Mix.

Over too soon, small faces. Is that it. by Hank Sanders? Sorry about that, Alkaline Trio. What. was that, Lords? Sorry again, Velocity. Girl. You're better than that by Plug. I. know by Fiona Apple. Let me try again by. Frank Sinatra. I've got work in the. morning by Pizza [ __ ] I understand by. Freddy and the Dreamers. And we end with. the Brian Burkhart band I'll call you a. cab. >> Oh, that's I want someone to make that.

and put it on Spotify, but not not not. put your name in the title. >> No. Please, somebody just one of our. listeners, would you please make love to. that playlist? [laughter]. >> Thank you. >> And report back to us how it went. That's a parasocial relationship, isn't. it? Um, in this in the in the world. though where audio is such a big deal. Um, do you think people are are making. love to audio books? >> It's really interesting because um, someone just sent me a thing saying that. the uh the the heated rivalry guys, you. know, I hate to talk about them. Um,

[laughter] the Heated Rivalry guys have. done something on an app that I've yet. to download, but I think is quite. specialist. and and it it's I think they played two. princes for for neighboring kingdoms. Someone told me that the sound effects. were like off the chain. So, I don't. know whether people I I don't know. I. haven't I haven't listened to it and I. need to listen to uh listen to Hudson. Williams and Connor Story on um this. story of two princes who live next door. to each other. >> Is that what it's called? Two princes. who live next door to each other. >> No, it's not. I can't remember what it's.

called. I think the app is called Quinn. that I have to get, but I I haven't. actually downloaded it. As I say, I've. got very bad Wi-Fi. I would bet pretty. much any money that I have that somebody. out there or a couple out there will. have made love while listening to the. rest is politics. Don't you think with. Alistister and Rory talking about Andy. Burnham's transport policy, which by the way is not detailed enough. for me? >> It's quite possible. It's quite. possible. I've I Yeah, [snorts].

>> our DMs are open. [laughter]. Well, that was exhaustive, Marina. Thank. you for your service. >> You're welcome. >> It was is much appreciated. Um, shall we. go to some adverts? >> We can't because Joey, our producer, has. just given me a piece of paper with an. absolutely incredible detail on it. >> Okay. >> Someone once emailed Gohanger to say. that they had sex during Rory and. Alistister's interview with Jerry Adams.

>> No way. Oh yes. Oh yes. >> That is. >> quite a specialist. >> That must have been a good Friday. >> I can't do all of mine are too. unacceptable. I can't do them. [laughter]. >> Wow. I mean that is Do you think that. they were they put it on especially or. it was it was just on as the evening. progressed. >> I don't think of Jerry Adams as an insta. aphrodesiac. So it's so difficult. Neither is acceptable. you put it on or.

you or it gets you in the mood. I I'm so. sorry. I said we wouldn't rush to any. judgment, but I just want to say I'm. judging. >> Yeah. I mean, honestly, the the rest is. history on Cicero, I get that's. absolutely fine. Yeah. >> But, uh, Rory and Alistister talking to. Jerry Adams. >> Wow. I think we have to go to a break. now. I need to have a moment. >> We have a lot to think about over these. adverts. [gasps]. >> A lot. [music]. This episode is brought to you by.

Lloyd's Rewards. Now, a big mistake that. people make is leaving the cinema as. soon as the credits roll cuz there might. be a bonus scene right at the end. >> Absolutely. One of my Yeah, you never. know. >> In Marvel's be a mid-redit scene and. then there'll be an end credit scene. >> I remember the first one I really. remember well two. I remember Ferris. Buer's Day Off where where he tells you. to go home at the end, but also Smokeoky. and the Bandit with with Bert Reynolds. where where they would do bloopers. It. just feels like a secret little glimpse. Yeah. >> Into a. >> It doesn't quite have to be over.

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vary. UK residents 18 plus. [music]. Welcome back everybody. Now we are going. to talk about Ariana Grande which is. such a difficult conversation. and she's. she's been very very thin for a long. time and she's just announced that she's. sort of withdrawing from public life for. an unspecified amount of time because. the attention this gets although she. doesn't explicitly refer to it but. that's what it is um is overwhelming.

um and as I say it's a difficult. conversation but I think it is one you. have to have. >> to yeah to discuss exactly. >> I think talking about women's bodies in. general is so difficult it's difficult. to say whether there is a right answer. or not and we'll kind of get through it. But a background, Ariana Grande, she. came to fame as a child star on. Nickelodeon. Um, and then she became a. pop star. Obviously, the Manchester bombing happened at an. Ariana Grande concert. I mean, just.

truly beyond horrific. Um, and she. returned to acting and um, she has. Fauler-in-law coming up, but most. particularly she returned in Wicked. And. it was during the promotional tour for. both sort of halves of that that it was. clear that she was very very thin. But. she um she came back as a pop star this. summer and that was slightly unexpected. She did a 42 date tour, the eternal. sunshine tour um supporting that last. album, but the new album Petal um is.

out. Um, and the video for that title. track in particular does seem almost. deliberately shot to highlight her. frailty and her thinness. And, you know, it's gone completely viral. Obviously, the way that some people talk about it. is is so repulsive. really reminds me of. the naughties and the way that. incredibly thin women then who obviously. all had major eating disorders were. spoken about um without any form of. humanity just to sort of like like a.

sort of freak show. Um and anyway, it's. interesting the platforms have tried to. pull back on this stuff because we know. that sort of pro-anorexia content, pro. any of this sort of stuff, they have. tried to pull back. Tik Tok and places. have have tried to put guard rails in. place and they I mean the trouble is. with all of those platforms you will if. if this is something that you are. desperately seeking out. You will find a. way around that. But they are they're. trying at least they're recognizing that. that it's an issue that that teens. especially are um trying to look at.

content about anorexia, eating disorders. and things like that and are actively. seeking it out. But I felt that they. couldn't even beat it in this case that. it's like this is such a tidal wave that. it has beaten the algorithm every you. can't move on all the different. platforms for seeing people talking. about it and um anyway so one of her. representatives has said that she will. be taking a step back from visibility. after her tour um because um of the.

public facing work and appearances have. led to endless ongoing public scrutiny. and this is what this is about. It's. about nothing else. So even things that. she was going to do like she was they I. mean a really big show they were doing. with Jonathan Bailey who's her wicked. co-star. >> Sunday in the park with George right she. was going to do which would have been. incredible. >> unbelievable she's not doing that um and. it's I absolutely think that the. discourse is completely relentless on it. and a massive percentage of it is. completely without humanity but. >> yeah as you say there's there there's. there's an interesting thing in the.

middle of this which is uh you know we. are strongly anti- the pleasing of. women's bodies and appearances and. things like that and that's an important. part of our culture. But equally uh if. we do think there's something dangerous. in the middle of our culture which. actually, you know, adds to uh the. issues of being a a teen of either. gender, then you know, do you speak up? And so I I think a lot of people are. slightly on the horns of a dilemma as to. whether this is something they want to. talk about. >> Yeah. >> And certainly whether they want to use.

her as a poster girl for it because. that's that feels unfortunate as well. But it's impossible to look at some of. the ways that she is portrayed without. thinking about this issue, without. thinking about, you know, without. speaking about it. And certainly anyone. with with teenage children, you're like, well, I mean, this feels like an. opportunity to have a conversation, but. you don't want to put it all on Ariana. Grande. Yeah, it's very difficult, you. know, and we live in a world where. people have very impressionable children. and teenagers who follow and idolize.

these people and a lot of people have. disclosed eating disorders um in the. past. T, you know, everyone Taylor. Swift, Victoria Beckham, Kesha, all. these different people. And I I've said. this quote so many times before on this. podcast, but you know, no snowflake. considers itself part of the avalanche. And I everyone saying a comment doesn't. you can't imagine how difficult it must. be to be her at the middle of it all. In. 2023, Ariana Grande said we should be. gentler and less comfortable commenting. on people's bodies.

However, I have to say I am of the view. that some comment is, as you sort of. hint, morally required sometimes and. it's inc it's incredibly complex. >> Um, you know, I had an eating disorder. myself in my early 20s. It's it it's, you know, they really thrive on secrecy. I do think that the sort of body. positivity is quite a simplistic creed. and it's not it's not one of those. things everyone could there was a point, you know, in a few years ago when people. said, "Oh, it's very very simple. We.

just it's we just celebrate everybody. and I'm afraid that I you know that's. too simplistic really um and health an. example whether asked to be an example. or not does matter you don't get it. anorexia from women being thin and. models being thin or all the things that. in the past of people have said but it's. born of lots and lots of complex things. but it's particularly a desire to. control an overwhelming world. >> they do make it worse the these images.

like this and all of this. So, I think. you do have to talk about it, but it's. very very hard. Yeah. >> Obviously, some of the ways that some. people talk about it where it's just. some sort of joke and you're literally. joking about someone who may or may not. be very ill. Um, that's completely. unhelpful. Um, I do think obviously. everyone has to leave her alone now. >> Um, but I don't think you should leave. the issues raised alone. And it's very. very hard for people to get help in both. here and in the US. Um and I I I think.

you have to talk about these things and. I I find it very difficult. It's hard. you know that's the trouble of being a. public figure. you are a public figure. to some degree and I I think it's too. simplistic to say we can't discuss it at. all because. >> yeah and if if if you are in a situation. as a as a as a teen or even younger or. older where you are looking for some. sort of control and your life has. spiraled then you can see the examples. in culture of very very thin women that. is an avenue you think oh maybe that's a. way maybe that feels like something I.

can control uh and so as as you say it's. not the fault of a thin woman that other. people become anorexic but having that. example out there at gives you an. avenue. It gives you a gives you a you. know I mean I've spoken a lot about my. disordered eating and that started when. I was very young 9 or 10 and it comes. from well what can you control when. you're 9 or 10 or 12 or 13? Not an awful. lot is the truth but one thing you can. control usually is food. That's the one. thing that you know whether it's eating. more of it or eating less of it. It's. it's a very very simple thing to control.

when you're a kid when you can't control. almost anything else. And so I do think. it's important we talk about it. As you. say, Ariana Grande, it's fascinating. Of. course, she denies that she has an. issue, but when you're talking about all. those women who have, you know, later. admitted that they had issues, they all. denied it at the time because you do. deny it at the time. That's not her. nothing. She's not doing anything wrong. by denying it. Of course, you deny it. because you don't even want to you don't. want to think about it. You don't want. to talk about it. You don't want to. admit it. You feel shame about it. So, she doesn't want to admit it. And that's. fine. Maybe in 10 years time she'll say.

actually at the time there was an issue. But if we can elevate the debate. slightly and just sort of say we. understand in our culture there are. people who are thinner than them they. might be in the manosphere. There are. you know we talked about uh you know. looks maxing and all that kind of stuff. There are versions of bodies out there. which teenagers of any gender can look. at which probably are not the healthiest. versions of bodies that they could have. And given that food is something that.

kids can control in some way, it's worth. having a conversation about it. And it's. certainly worth kids being able to talk. about it as well. >> Yeah, I don't think you can ignore it, but you can just choose how you do it. But I think she must be left alone now. because that's what she's asked for. >> Um well, listen, we all wish her well. and we, you know, hopefully there are. conversations that can be had. Hopefully. some good can come of all of that stuff. and we can we can all start talking. about those things um a little bit more. Shall we move on to something? Should we.

move on to an exemplar of manhood who's. been around for a very very long time. and that is James Bond? >> Very good. Yes, James Bond. Now uh James. Cagasorium who's the brilliant pollster. who I did the our vibe shift series. with. It's by the way available to. members still that vibrative steering. series and it was absolutely. sensational. >> Now James' company Focal Data has done. research on what the public want from. the next James Bond film. Um which I. think is very very interesting.

>> and and from the next James Bond himself. as well. >> Yes. Yes. the headlines of it are well. should we talk about who who the British. public want to be James Bond first. because he's done a lot of research into. that and I I I think it's interesting. the the number one name we'll do a top. three okay these are these are the three. people who British people would most. like to be James Bond we've seen all the. names that are in in the press we've. seen that the you know the the names at. the top of the betting but if you just. ask the uh the public in the UK and the.

US funnily enough in third place, James. Norton. >> Yep, >> it's been mentioned a lot. I absolutely. get that. In second place, Henry Cavl. >> Mentioned a lot. >> 21% of people would like Henry Cavl to. be James Bond. The top choice across. Britain and America to be the next James. Bond. Tom Hardy. I mean, I get it. I absolutely get it. I. don't think it'll be him, but you can. see why people would want Tom Hardy to. be James Bond. >> People are wrong. People are wrong about. a lot of things.

>> Yes. But if you if you look back at. every single James Bond that has ever. been appointed, not a single one of them. would have been chosen by the public, apart from maybe one. Connory definitely. wouldn't have been chosen by the public. He was unknown. Roger Moore wouldn't. have been chosen by the public. Timothy. Dalton wouldn't have been chosen by the. public. George Lenby, Daniel Craig. definitely wouldn't have been chosen by. the public. Uh they were furious about. it at the time. The one person I think. the public might have said this is our. guy is Pierce Brosman. Yeah. >> I think he was the right guy at the. right time and everyone would but the.

the the public usually you have to rely. on the film producers to choose someone. the public doesn't know they want. Right. >> Yes. But that was such a we've talked. about it a lot before but that was. Barbara Buckley's call completely the. Daniel Craig call and it was it's it's. really ballsy because it's like everyone. was like what on earth are you talking. about? The second they see casino royale. they're like oh yeah no you're right I. that is the right call. And also he's. also he's a great actor and that's that. that is important if you want to make. great films. >> Okay. Right. James Kagasaurum's research.

they've divided the fans of this fr. which I like about this. They've divided. basically the fans of this franchise. into tribes and the tribes are uh. traditionalists and like they care about. you know preserving his traditional. values his classic behaviors you know no. political correctness etc. All his vices. are there his seduction style is intact. all of that. They're the biggest segment. in the UK. Um, and they're a substantial. one. We're just sort of looking at the. UK and the US really. Um, and they're a. substantial one in the US and they're.

kind of heavily populated by socially. conservative older right-wing voters. who's like they really like the. franchise when they feel kind of old. school. >> Yeah. >> Next tribe, patriots. They really care. about Britain's his British identity. that, you know, the sense of duty blah. blah national affiliation. um they're. more prevalent in the UK obviously than. they would be in the US and again they. disproportionately include older more. nationally rooted right of center voters.

and they do they wanted to keep Bond. very much the same this is the next. tribe I quite this is interesting I'm. I'm a little bit of this but a little. bit of the next one after classists. classists they mo they want to have the. familiar formula so they want the. structure they want the leading man. looks they want they don't have to be. heavily updated um They they're kind of. like a really solid middle ground in. both US and the UK market. They don't. want any culture wars in this stuff. >> Yeah. But they they they want the. classic stuff, but they they want you to. move it on a little bit to reflect the. world the world as it is. They they want.

Christopher Nolan's Odyssey rather than. Homer's Odyssey. >> A agreed. Um then you've got Showman or. show people perhaps. Um, and um, now. showman, they care most about the sort. of spectacle, the escapist glamour, you. know, big action sequences, lots of. locations, gadgets, all the stuff, you. know, the jokes. Um, and they want the. films to be very fun, visually. impressive. Uh, they're more common in. the US than the UK, funnily enough. But. they don't they don't care about the the.

absolute traditional bits of Bond as we. you know the the tuxedo and the. swavveness and the and they they just. want a big Mission Impossible style. spectacle. >> Yeah. There's and they and they tend to. skew younger. And by the way, young. people are the people who go to the. cinema most. A lot of these old people. who have a a number of views, are you. going to see in the cinema? No, I. probably won't. It's a little bit just. like this is how I want you to make it. >> This is exactly how I want you to make. it. I'm never going to see it. I'll. watch I'll fall asleep in half of it.

over Christmas in about seven years. time. Okay. So, no. Uh the next one is. globalists. Now, they care about all of. the kind of just the kind of locations. Um they like it to be more modern, cosmopolitan. Um they're there's more of. them in the US than the UK. And they're. more they're younger, they're. outwardlooking, they're whatever. >> They're absolutely the sort of sort of. people who would have sex while Rory and. Alistister talk to Jerry Adams. >> They're not those people. Okay. I don't. think. >> are they not who are those people? >> I would love to know I would love to.

know uh who those people would choose as. the next James Bond. >> Listen, if that was you, don't be. intimidated. Write in and just give us a. tiny bit more detail because I there's. just not enough quite I know about this. yet. And as you know, I like to ask a. lot of questions. Okay, so let's go back. to these people. In the in the UK, old. older viewers C2 voters, they're kind of. clustered in traditionalists and. patriots, while um classicists are quite. popular. Now, the showman and the. globalist, you know, the last two. categories that don't really care about, you know, just kind of want it to be big.

and exciting and fun and hot and. whatever. Um they're much more female, younger looking, 18 to 34s, etc. >> As you say, people who will actually go. to the cinema. >> Yeah. But you but actually you want to. get all of those people. You know, we've. talked before about like four quadrant. movies. Bond isn't a four quadrant movie. really, but it's as many quadrants as. you always want as many quadrants as you. can. And so each of those audiences need. different marketing techniques to bring. them in. And in your casting, your. concept, your tone, all of that, you.

need to reach them all in a way if. possible. It's lit. It's almost like a. manifesto. It's so weird this franchise. It's it's almost like trying to give, you know, putting out an offer to the. electorate for government. But it but is. I I I do think it's it's worth noting. that you know we're this data is amazing. but it's worth noting if if you are the. Bond people if you are Amazon they have. all of this data as well they want to. make a great film but they do also want. to market to all of these people. So if. you look at who they will eventually.

choose if you look at the movie they. make if you look at the script all these. things they will have had all of this. information all the way through. So, it's all very well us saying, "Oh god, it's so easy to make a Bond, do X, Y, or. Zed." They have got all of this stuff. They know all of these things. They want. to make a movie that, as he says, appeals to everybody. They know exactly. all these numbers. And often, certainly. in a in a in a franchise, data can be. incredibly important. It's never as. important as the creativity of the. director and the writer and the actor. that that is always paramount I think in.

in pretty much any franchise but all of. this will inform their decisions which. is why it's interesting that we have. this data as well now. >> yeah it's really but it's it's a little. bit like something like the monarchy. where you have to make sure that it's it. can be handed on to the next generation. it's such a weird franchise I always say. in the UK this is really. something that's in our bones you know. we have to get Bond right or we're. something getting something about. ourselves wrong. >> stop getting Bond wrong. >> yeah but if or we're getting something.

quite sort of elemental about ourselves. wrong and so it's there's certain things. that are like this kind of national bell. weathers and it's like oh you know is. M&S underwear good at any one given time. you know have Man United got a strong. bat for our institutions failing this is. like one of those things it's sort of. toemic in a weird way. >> well it was it was fascinating recently. that um that god they do polling on. everything that all the world security. services voted on who the best security. service in the world was and MI6. came top by like a mile by like an.

absolute mile in ter in terms of the. ones that was admired most by the rest. of the world and that is of course not. chiefly because of Bond but a part of. that is because the brand is so. incredible and that's Bond and that's. Britain and there is something about. Bond that that is absolutely deep within. our national psyche but we have to. recognize that for example in America. they couldn't care less about any of. that stuff. >> no but we have to now talk about it's. very interesting Okay, across every one. of those single those tribes that I have.

mentioned, >> Tom Hardy and Henry Caval come out on. top. They there's something about those. they believe that they identif kind of. have this core identity of Bond and that. they embody it. >> That's so with the traditionalists, with. the classicist, with everyone, they all. they all sort of agree. >> They're miles out in France on this one. Um it I I mean I think they're totally. wrong and they're too old. >> by by the way there there's one one. interesting wrinkle in that. So Tom. Hardy is ahead of Henry Caval. If you.

just look at Americans it's just. Americans and Henry Caval is actually. the first choice to play Bond. >> America you're wrong about this and some. other stuff as well. Um but Henry. Caval's 43. I think he's too old for it. But the next ones down it's interesting. are like James Norton, Richard Madden. >> Yeah. >> Um again they're not going to go for. Richard Madden after that. There's no. younger ones doing anything more than. 2%. So you've got Karen Callum Turner, Aaron Taylor Johnson. You've got quite. negative ones like Jacob Alludi. Now. he's. >> Well, I was going to say so so so this. this is like um the the popularity thing.

which is you take the amount of people. who like them and you minus the amount. of people who don't like them. That's. why it's possible to get a minus score. So Tom Hardy score of 28 is the amount. of people who like him minus the amount. of people who don't like him equals 28. Yeah, there's a person on Zero who I've. been told is going to be the next James. Bond, by the way. >> I know. I'm going to let you get to him. >> Okay. >> Jacob Alludi, who's one of the people. he's he's very negative. He's 29. >> years old. >> Yeah. Years old. Yes. Um and um Callum.

Turner is 36. I I think that's you know, anyway, it's you do want Bon to be a. little bit older, but they could do. something different. It's whether or not. they take that big punt. But anyway, you. tell us about your latest. >> Yes. So, as as I say, you know, the. scores are the amount of people who. think you're great minus the amount of. people who think you are uh not great. Um, we absolutely have to take into. account the that public would have been. wrong on every single Bond. >> ever appointed apart from maybe Pierce.

Brosman and so it's it's down to the. producers. Yes. But the but the name I. heard and we you know different people. hear different things. The name I heard. is Jack Louden. >> Yeah. River can't ride in slow horses. and is was Kenny Noi in gold and is a. such a brilliant actor. Can be funny, can definitely do action. I mean, I. think he'd be sensational. It is. definitively not a he's definitely got. it thing. It's just someone I I he is. definitely being strongly considered. I. think he'd be amazing.

>> He's 36. That's a good age. You have to. have the longevity. They've got to do at. least two movies and you he's he's he's. a good age for it. the other, you know, some of the others you mentioned are too. old. >> Yeah, I think I think you have I'm. mid-30s. And funnily enough, the polling. by um by focal data says how old should. Bond be. Uh and it's all I I think the. average age at Bond should be is 37. >> Uh but the average age for a Bond girl. is 33. They think that he should be 37. and his girlfriend should be about four. years younger. That's uh that's what the. that's what the public think. But yeah, I think um I think Jack Louden would be.

uh an incredible bond, don't you think? >> He'd be great. Yeah, for sure. He's got. he's got he's got real Daniel Craig. energy. >> Yes, he but it definitely can do the. jokes. The jokes are essential. The not. taking it too seriously as well. I don't. Yeah, he it's Daniel Craig takes it took. it, you know, slightly seriously by the. end, >> but he's always But you can see he's got. a slight Yeah, there's there's there's. always a slight twinkle in Daniel. Craig's eye. If we accept that that. humor is an important part of Bond, I. mean, which of these actors can really.

really do comedy? Which of them which of. them have done comedy? It's it's quite. hard going down that list to find. proper, you know, actors with comic. chops. >> Yeah. Callum Turner is in a romcom at. the moment, but it's hasn't done very. well. >> Yes. Which which I think is interesting. It opened last week to not much, which. which won't do him any favors in this. race, I don't think. >> No, but then I you know, I mean, it's. not I don't think it's going to be Tom. Hardy. Um I don't think those stories. out of Mobland were particularly uh. helpful either because you you just need. everyone to be very easy to deal with.

I'm not saying he isn't. It seems like. so many egos on that show. I've got my. own theories as to what the real problem. is and I don't think it's Tom Hardy. necessarily, but um I none of that's. helpful because it's such a it's such a. sort of huge thing and you really need. everyone to be um lowest friction. possible. It's interesting actually that. they also do um uh they've done the data. on who the uh Britain's uh Britain and. America's favorite ever bond was and. absolutely splits exactly as you'd think. which is older um viewers it's Shan.

Connory younger viewers it's Daniel. Craig and there somewhere in the middle. they sort of merge into into the two but. those two are absolutely streets ahead. of everyone else. >> but there are a lot of people who. answered George Lazenby. >> yes weirdly and and. >> I can't as I said people are very wrong. about things. >> well the the 35 to 44 cohort is the one. that's absolutely split down the middle. between three of them. It's so as I say, Connory when you're above 44 is. everyone. Um if you're under 35,

everyone is um Daniel Craig, but 35 to. 44 it's absolutely split between just. Connory just wins by one point from. Daniel Craig and then by two points from. Pierce Brosner. So it's that that bit is. very very close, but everyone else it's. uh you're either Connory or you're. Craig. It's like everyone's everyone's. favorite Doctor Who is whoever was. Doctor Who when you were growing up or. David Tenant. >> Okay. But but the humor should be part. of it. Like I have a lot of respect for. the way that Roger Moore could say hiss. off to a snake. I I I you know I would.

not mind seeing a little bit more of. that next time around. >> Yeah. And Jack Nel could do that because. Roger Mo's my favorite Bond because he. was my first Bond you know and that's. that's just when I grew up. You know, funnily enough, they they they talk. about what has to be in a Bond movie to. uh all these respondents. Uh and. absolutely top of it, 70% of people said. gadgets. So gadget is the single most. important because goes gadgets, exotic. locations, dry humor. I think I mean if. that's not the perfect recipe for a. film,

>> what is. >> what is? >> Uh and Brits and Americans tend to agree. on and I just thought this is an. interesting just a final little thing. Uh so dry humor, seduction, drinking, womanizing, all these things people want. to be in the Bond movies. Uh the place. where Brits and Americans uh uh differ. the most is gambling. So Brits don't. really are not that fussed about. gambling being in a Bond movie. Americans really really really want it. America has gone absolutely insane for. gambling in the last 5 years. They have. They've gone insane. I just saw that.

Poly Market and Kelshi, which are, you. know, the the sort of uh not supposedly. not betting sites. >> Prediction markets, Richard. >> Prediction markets. They're both worth. over 20 billion dollars now. America's. literally lost its mind for gambling. It. has lost its mind. Uh anyway, and they. they want more of it in bond. But uh but. thank you very much to to James and to. Focal Data for that. But I do think the. interesting thing is is that the Bond. franchise people have all of this. information already. They've got all of. this data. They know all of this stuff. And so when you think about the.

decisions they've got to make, my god, they that there there's a lot on their. shoulders and I I I imagine that new. names will uh will emerge and there's. many twists in this story yet. >> And if you want more Bond, we are. currently recording our series which is. the definitive history of James Bond. starting right from Ian Fleming all the. way through. We're having such a lot of. fun doing it. It is for members, but the. very first episode is out this week and. that is free for everybody and it's. about Ian Fleming. Oh god, I loved.

recording that episode so much. So, it's. about Ian Fleming and the very very. beginnings of Bond. So, you can listen. to that for free. Um, and uh lots of. details there about how to join our. membership thing as well for ad free. listening and all that stuff. But yes, the the definitive history of James Bond. is on its way for members and this week. only for non-members too. Um, any. recommendations, Marina? >> What I wanted to be able to recommend. this week was Richard Osman's We Chase. Shadows. But let me tell you what. happened this book, which I bought with. me. I bought two books with me. Uh, it.

was immediately taken from me by Kieran. who said like honestly about Yeah. By. the first three pages, Kieran's like, "Oh my god, his tone is amazing. He's. just nailed." Absolutely loved it. The. second he finished it, my daughter has. taken it. We not spoken to me for 24. hours. Not in a bad mood. just it's so I. haven't yet but I can tell you that it. is going down an absolute storm with the. people I'm with. >> a thank you. >> So um I'm I'm reading my other book. I'm. reading my other book.

>> which is. >> Oh, you're going to love this. Oh god. >> I am reading on war by Carl von. Clausvitz which is a seminal early 19th. century by the way treatis on military. strategy and history. I couldn't be. loving it more. Um, it's like a it's. like a self-help book, but um not not. rubbish. And um it's yeah, I'm learning. how to vanquish my enemies. Uh 99.9% of. listeners to this podcast, and even. that's conservative, will don't buy this.

book cuz you will be [laughter]. what on earth has she given me? [sighs]. I literally couldn't love it more. >> You might be the only person in the. world taking those two books on holiday. >> Yeah, I think so. I'm also planning to. invade the territories to the east of. Prussia in September and I don't want to. mess it up. So I would like to recommend. on war by Carl von Clausvitz. Any. recommendations Richard? >> Yes. Uh I am I'm listening to actually. though you can read it uh the collection. of David Sedaris pieces called the land. and its people. Uh and I would listen.

I'd recommend buying it because he's so. brilliant but uh particularly the audio. book cuz you get to hear him read it out. live in front of an audience. So, you. get to hear the reaction and you just. you it's it's so he's so funny. It's so. effortlessly. Of course, he's not. effortlessly funny. It takes an enormous. amount of effort, but um it's there. there's there's a humor to it that is a. bit like other people's, but it's not. like anyone in particulars. There's he. he he just has he has a very very. special voice. >> He's amazing. >> Some of his jokes are just and I admire.

no one more in the world than someone. who can really tell a proper joke that. no one's ever told before. Uh and he is. amazingly good at that. So, it's The. Land and Its People by David Sedaris. >> Right, I think that wraps us up for. today. We will obviously be back. tomorrow with the first one of our Bond. series. It is really cool. It's such. fun. >> We're doing a few more Q&As's as well, which we're looking for our listeners to. send in questions. I'm going to be. interviewing John Gisham. I love John. Gisham so much. Uh so, if you have any. questions for John Gisham, please send. them in to the rest entertainment at.

goalhanger.com. Uh and also we'll be interviewing the. new host of Strictly. So Josh Whitikham, Johannes Redee, and Emma Willis. So if. you got any questions for them, then uh. same address, rest entertainment at. goghanger.com. So John Gisham, any. questions about uh you know his writing. methods, any questions about the movie. adaptations, anything like that. Uh any. questions about being virtually the. bestselling author of all time? Uh I'm. sure he'll answer all of those. and. anything for Josh Whitikham, Emma Wood,

Johannes Red DB, please. >> Um, and other than that, we'll be back. on Thursday for our questions and. answers. >> See you on Thursday. [music].