Was Taylor Swift's Wedding Cringe?

What are we talking about today? >> It is, it's a packed show, Richard, because. uh two people got married. Taylor Swift. and Travis Kelce are now married. We're. going to talk about what that wedding. says about them. >> And Neil from Strictly got married as. well. >> Yes. Yeah, we I don't think we're going. to have time to get to get to too much. of that because also uh breaking news. this morning, Sky is buying ITV. And that is a big, big thing, and we're. going to talk about what that means. >> And talking of Sky, we uh they have a. new documentary out this week. It is. about Katie Price.

>> Yeah, we would talk about her. her as a story and what she says about. herself and all of us, I suppose. >> Yeah. >> The rest is entertainment is presented. by Octopus Energy. >> Now, we're going to be talking about an. expression which I hadn't heard until. seven seconds ago, which is someone. getting their flowers. Can you tell me. what that means? >> Well, it means like you've been around a. long time, but people suddenly think, "Hang on a second, you're amazing and. you should be recognized.". >> So, you're finally getting your due. You're you're you're getting your. flowers. >> and you're being garlanded. Now, I would. say someone like this is someone like.

Jean Smart who plays the lead in Hacks. She plays Deborah Vance. Okay, Jean. Smart is extraordinary. She did a huge. amount of TV and stage work, and there. was a sense that she was sort of always. brilliant, but then this one role came. along, Deborah Vance in Hacks. They. literally just give her the Emmy every. year now. She gets her She gets her. flowers every year. She gets her Emmy. every year. As we always talk about. Octopus's customer service, you're. you're counselled on by about 10 or 12. people. You've got a small team. >> I know who you are. >> Yes, and they are permitted to send.

flowers every week to a customer who. might just be going through something, whatever it is. So, they can recognize. it's not an apology, it's just because. someone was going through something and. they you get your flowers. >> Another example of they seem to do. business in a very interesting and. customer-focused way. Imagine if Jean. Smart is an Octopus customer, might get. her flowers twice. >> Yeah, every week. >> Shall we start with Taylor? >> Yeah, I mean, a wedding does tell you. quite a lot about who people are. A lot. of this is scattered thoughts, forgive. me. Like I said, I had 1 hour's sleep, but you know when um they got had posted.

that engagement photo and she was like, "Your English teacher and your gym. teacher are getting married.". >> Yeah. >> You know, there there was just no real. sense at any point of like, are they. actually doing it at Madison Square. Garden? Cuz it does definitely seem like. getting married at the office, but. I think people thought maybe they'd get. married privately and this would be a. party afterwards. Just in case you. hadn't heard, they got married in. Madison Square Garden at a huge ceremony. attended by a thousand seemingly of. >> That's a lot of weed. >> top celebrities.

>> We will get on to having a thousand. people at your wedding. That's a lot of people. >> think people couldn't quite believe she. would do it and that this maybe was a. decoy. They'd been married before, but. you can see that someone that at home in. a performance venue and you know, him to. a different extent would feel that they. had control. And I mean, one of the big. things about how we know is that she. likes control. Doing it this way, I have. to say, in the center of Manhattan, we now know forever. Never mind the gym. teacher and the English teacher. There. is nothing understated about them, okay?

This is not Tom Holland and Zendaya for. one second, okay? >> You know, she needs a no no-fly zone. I. get that. It's amazing that they were able to pull. it off with the level of secrecy that. they have. And since it's happened, you. have seen. like some of the guests sort of post. pictures of them. No one has done it, you know, they haven't done it from. within the venue or or meaningfully. within the venue. >> an NDA until midnight, wasn't it? And. then people could say they had been. there, but but there are a number of. things they weren't allowed to. photograph or have a, you know, cuz they.

were given their phones on the way back. out, so they could they could do on the. way in photos and on the way out photos. But yeah, >> I mean, it's the thing where you're just. taking like Beyoncé and Tom Hanks's. phone off them. It's fine. Like, you. know, they're all close personal. friends, I'm sure, but we'll get to. that, I'm sure. >> and now now we have to wait for it's. usually about 2 weeks until the wedding. photographer sends you the email file. So so presumably Travis will wait until. they get the. all the photos of the wedding and then. they'll choose their favorites and maybe. hopefully share a couple on their. Instagram. >> I I feel I'm sure that we will see a. little bit more than.

>> Do you think? >> It's sort of amazing that they were able. to pull off that level of secrecy. really. That you knew that it was. >> I think if you're incredibly rich you. can pull off secrecy, can't you? >> Okay, but can I just say that when the. US bombed those Houthi targets in Yemen, like the national security advisor. accidentally added a journalist to the. group chat. So, it's actually more. secure than a number of high-level US. military operations. >> I think if I was spending $26 million on. a wedding, which is my guess as to what. it cost, because that's what they gave to charity. as well. And it that felt like quite a. random amount. So, I think they thought.

oh it cost $26 million, let's give $26. million to charity. Yeah, if I was. spending $26 million. and I could afford security and police. and this that and the other, yeah, I'd. have a. fairly secure. >> Yeah, but what does it cost to bomb the. Houthis? I don't want to get sidetracked. into that. But that's quite expensive. too, so I want more than $26 million. Let me tell you that for free. Well, it. was a military operation and Adam. Sandler was apparently the officiant. >> Yes. >> So, uh. >> Discuss. >> Discu. >> Well, if again, if I got $26 million and.

someone says do you want Happy Gilmore. to marry you? You think yeah, of course. course I want Happy Gilmore to marry me. Who would you choose? >> is interesting about the guest list. >> Yeah. Is that it's the sort of a base on's. paid by the literally the biggest stars. in the world. That there's a there's a. status to. being you know, they want and also that. those two, your supposed English teacher. and your gym teacher, want to be the. sort of people who have Steven Spielberg. at their wedding, who have Beyonce and. Jay Z. I mean, celebrities as we know don't.

have old friends. I think they're. regarded as a moral friend. >> I only felt that they did have some old. friends there. I thought because they've. got I mean this is the thing. You've got. a thousand people at that How many. people do you have at your wedding? >> About 150, I think. >> Yeah, I think we had about 120. And even. then you're like well I mean, towards. the edges of the 130, 140 you're quite. pushing it. >> That's quite a lot of people I'm. thinking. Did you actually have a chance. to sit down with Machine Gun Kelly. during the evening? >> [laughter]. >> I don't think he did. But Machine. >> the people were just sort of like, okay,

Hugh Grant, fine. I mean, just fine. >> But Machine Gun Kelly was an old friend. of Travis Kelsey. They grew up together. >> Okay, okay, fair enough. >> he's he's like a weird he's a celebrity. >> one. >> There are some unusual names on the. list. I mean, it's I I like the fact. that she invited Graham Norton because. he asked her on the show. >> Yeah. >> And Greg James I sort of I sort of get. it. So 1,000 people. So you go okay, it's Madison Square Garden. So you used. to have a lot more than 1,000 people. there. And 1,000 in the kind of abstract. doesn't sound that many.

But let's sit down. Let's be at that. kitchen table. with. Travis and Taylor. So everyone who's. been married, imagine just that thing. where you sit down and go okay, who's. coming to the wedding? You know roughly. how many people we've got. Let's say a. normal wedding, but 120. You might have. a smaller one. You might have a bit. bigger, but the maximum you're not. having many more than 200. And you sit. there. Family, friends, this that and. the other. And then, you know, you maybe. you sprinkle a few kind of oh, it'd be. interesting if you invited so-and-so. because they've never met so-and-so and.

that that might be quite fun. And oh, they did invite us to that thing, so. let's invite them. And before you know. it, you've sort of got to the end of the. list, right? And that's 150 people. They. then got another 850. people to invite. Imagine sitting. around. They can't have done the whole. list. They cannot have done the whole. list. Someone must have gone here's a. list of famous people who you are. tangentially attached to. This is the. guy when, you know, you said that you. >> I need a yarn wall for some of these, let me tell you. I need a connection, but.

>> But that's a lot of people to invite to. a wedding. >> It is, but can we say what this actually. means, which is that you know, she is. the I mean, if she's like one of the. biggest stars in the world, for sure. >> Yeah. >> Basically the biggest star in the world. is still a massive star [ __ ] Like. Beyoncé. Like these. >> Let's be honest. >> Celebrities love celebrities. >> ask some celebrities because all my. normal friends will find it hilarious if. they go to a wedding and they'll get. pissed and I'll be on the dance floor. with like whoever it is. >> Yeah, we for example had Miles Jupp at. our wedding and that was a lot of fun. Uh but that's. >> So well, did you reveal him or did he.

[laughter] actually just. >> No, but afterwards people like all my. old friends were like, "Oh my god, it. was so great that Miles Jupp was there.". Everyone was everyone was excited. >> It's fan service, right? >> And he's an old. very old friend of both of ours. So he. So it was lovely to have him there. But. that's all you need, Taylor. Just invite. Miles. >> Honestly, it just says something a. little bit different. >> You notice I hope, by the way, you. notice I hope that the last three people. we interviewed on The Rest Is. Entertainment, Steven Spielberg, Tom. Hanks, and Sir Paul McCartney were all.

there. >> Yeah. >> So it's very, very hard. I I wonder, I. could be wrong cuz I didn't see Adam. Curtis on the guest list, but I wonder. if Taylor listens to uh our shows and. goes, "Oh, you know what? >> Whoever may have been. >> Whoever Marina has asked about their. cultural life. Tim Davie was there, yeah, absolutely. There was some other interesting guests. There was There was a guy Stephen uh. Demetriou who uh is not a film star, is. not a pop star. He is the guy who runs. the ICE detention center in El Paso. >> Ooh. >> Lena Dunham did the uh a sort of best.

woman speech. and said, as always and then you're. supposed to say "to gasps". >> Yeah. >> didn't. Of course it didn't. People were. just laughing. >> Okay, I'll tell you who wasn't there and. this is so cold, okay? Blake Lively. >> Yeah, was she not there? >> They They got some pictures of her. attending some horse show with her and. Ryan Reynolds with one of their children. in upstate somewhere or other. >> She She loses. >> is fascinating about that is given. you're having a thousand people. >> Yes. >> There's a lot of people also, can I say, when you do a wedding list that you.

think I mean, we're not I don't know why. we're friends anymore, but we are. friends and I'm not leaving these people. off. It'd be really awful. >> Who would like for your wedding who. would that be? >> She. >> [laughter]. >> It's a long time ago, Richard. >> Yeah. >> Um but she really did completely call. her for the whole Lively-Baldwin thing. She That is so cold, okay? Taylor Swift. is godmother not just to one of Blake. Lively's daughters, but to all three of. the daughters. She is godmother. >> Oh, wow. >> Uh so so she didn't invite her. godchildren?

>> No. >> Cuz she didn't have bridesmaids, I saw. that. And Travis I don't think had uh. had a groomsman. >> No. >> And that's um. >> Wow. >> It's cold. >> Come on, man. >> And it's really interesting cuz when you. look back at it was this ongoing plot. line, like are they still friends? Is. this song on Life of a Showgirl about. her when she's saying good thing I like. my friends canceled? There was all that. sort of stuff that people said. And it. was unclear, you know, just because they. hadn't been photographed. And if you. look at all the messages which came out. in the discovery process of the um It. Ends With Us mega drama.

Taylor Swift is very very supportive. But is it the exposure of the messages. and the sort of brand contamination that. she's called her off for? Cuz I don't. know what else you could have done. If. you She's saying you've got me involved. in this and you've exposed me. Is that. what's done it? It is so cold that she's. not there. >> But again, I mean we've all had this. issue. >> very close. >> We've all had this issue with our. weddings. >> Yeah. >> You know, when you go, "Oh god, we would. have invited uh Eileen, but after that. lawsuit, it's very difficult. So Auntie. Eileen, I'm I'm so sorry because you. were honestly you were 1,001 on the.

list." By the way, uh somebody would. have been 1,001 on that list. Somebody. would have been 1,001. There's a group. of people who were like, "Oh, I could. have That could have. >> Yeah. >> That Imagine if we'd interviewed her at. some point. Uh and we hadn't been invited and Greg. James had. We'd have been like Greg. >> I'm going to invite everyone I've ever. ever talked to. >> Yeah, yeah. >> At one point. >> And we just never spoke to her. >> In terms of it as a sort of fan service. event, because everything she ever does. is In some ways it was in keeping with.

her songs, which is that you know, there's a long guessing games. Is it Is. it about this? The possibility of sort. of decoding things. Um also, as in keeping with a lot of her. songs, it does, because of the Blake. Lively angle, contain mega celebrity. beef. >> Yeah. >> And I wonder how much more will be. unfolded for them and what more they'll. be able to say. >> They had the event the night before, which sounded like a much more sedate. affair. That sounded like a, you know, 100 people. That sounded like the. weddings that that we would have. And.

I'd be interested to see who went and. I'd be interested to see if actually. they did do anything official on that. night or whether it was just an American. wedding breakfast. >> Yeah, everyone does a speech. >> Oh my god. >> Thanks America, but we don't feel the. need. >> Their vows were 20 minutes long each. >> Oh my god. >> Oh, can you I mean, can you begin to. imagine? Can you begin I mean, I love my. friends, but if any of my friends did a. 20-minute vows, I'd be like, come on. guys, this is Listen, you're in love. with each other, that's good. A lot of. people in this room in love with each. other. A lot of people have been in love.

before. A lot of people here have been. married. We've been to each other's. weddings. Okay, who Look out just. absolutely look out across the. congregation here. >> Would Tom and Rita have done this? I. don't think so. >> Who here has done. 40 minutes worth of vows? And the answer. will be nobody. >> Yeah, that's like longer than Lily. Allen's current concert. >> [laughter]. >> That's longer That's longer than injury. time in the uh. >> [laughter]. >> in the England match last night. >> time. >> Yeah. But But yeah, so I I I I I think that. it's.

if you cannot be performative on your. wedding day, when can you be? So we So. that's a given. >> tell you what, Richard, she has got a. number of opportunities to be. performative. >> can be, yeah. >> Yeah. She. She has, in fairness, Taylor Swift a. number of opportunities to be. performative. >> More than most of us. >> Yeah. >> But you I think you're allowed to be. self-indulgent. >> Yeah. >> On your wedding day and we've all got. friends who have. >> been self-indulgent. >> [laughter]. >> It's so on brand. I'm amazed. I really. thought that they would like be in some. sweet I mean, how many of the songs have.

got stuff about sweet little churches. and aisles and all of this sort of. stuff. And it's like, all right, you're. going to do it at Madison Square Garden. So, when the. announcement comes out, it's going to. say just T&T married? So, is this like a. tie-out with AT&T? I'm sorry. I That was. bad. >> Yeah, that's yeah, that's that's more. performative than I would have chosen to. be. They even when when when when you. when you walked in, which I thought was. sort of a nice touch, you walk past a. wall of pictures of Travis and Taylor. when they were children and getting. older, which exactly what they did in.

Gavin and Stacey. >> Yes. >> It's the exact It's the exact same. trick, right? >> I've seen it before, yeah. That's yeah. >> So, they obviously got. >> built a castle within I mean, I'm saying. a lot of this stuff out loud. I'm told. that they they built a sort of castle. within and it was a sort of Cinderella. sort of Alice in Wonderland themed. party. >> Yeah, I mean, so fine. I mean, you've. got to have a theme. And you know, they. obviously got. >> Yeah, they have wedding planners. Yeah, and once you do have wedding planners, of course, the wedding planners have got. to try and earn their money somehow. So,

they're going to be throwing ideas at. you and you're going to, you know, say. yes to some of them. Yeah, but you have. you sort of you have to do something, don't you? And you know, they're busy people, you. know, they've got their recording. albums, they've got podcasts, and we know how long that takes. But. listen, it's their wedding. They can do. what they absolutely what they want. They're clearly in love with each other. and I think that's really, really. lovely. >> minutes in love with each other. >> Yes, but. >> You could never. >> Yeah, but I but I yes, I think we're. allowed to talk about it as a cultural. event because they made it a cultural. event. It wasn't as you said, it wasn't. a.

quaint little wedding in upstate New. York with, you know, a few friends and. family. I mean, that would have been. amazing. >> Don't you think she could have had a. party here? >> I I would have done that done it doing. an acoustic set afterwards. Um, invite Sir Paul, invite Stevie Nicks, who both played in the gig. Everyone. plays acoustically in a tiny little. under a pagoda in a New England church. and then release that. That's a lovely. little They'd call it the wedding album. That's it. If I was their wedding. planner and I got down to the I got. >> I I would watch that show so hard.

>> down to the last three. Um that's what I would have done. I'd. said, "Look, take your 26 million. and the 26 million they're giving to. charity, so that's 52 million. I'll do. this whole thing for 400,000 cuz I've. got to include security. You know, so I. figure 50 grand for the actual wedding, 350 for security and stuff like that. Uh. and then we can give 50 million to. charity and we're releasing an album off. the back of it, the wedding the wedding. album, uh and uh we'll make all that. money back.". >> Well, I'm sorry they didn't go with you.

One of the other The one of the last. things I want to say about this. So, this is the first time I've seen this. and you realize just how like convincing. AI slop or right just AI is. I've seen. so many pictures of them that look so. kind of realistic of them. >> Yeah. >> facing off against each other in in in a. wedding dress and I think and I keep. thinking, is that one have they released. one? None of them are real. There's just. masses and masses and masses of AI. We. know they were in Dior and it was custom. Dior. Um but they keep There are so many. pictures have come out that do look. incredibly convincing and they're just.

that they're not real. It's It's. becoming like completely ubiquitous. >> Yeah. It It's It's It's fascinating. It's fascinating you can shut down New. York again. But you know, we talk we. talk a lot about where where have all. the stars gone and where's the old days. of show business and shutting down the. middle of New York in 100 degrees heat. So, that's sort of very show businessy. uh and having every celebrity on the. planet apart from Blake Lively uh at. your wedding, that's very show busy as. well. >> take out is that the biggest stars in. the world are massive star [ __ ].

>> I mean, they are, though, aren't they? It's very interesting that, you know, celebrities flock together and they say, "Oh, and that's because we sort of. understand each other." You think, "I. don't know if it is. I think it's. because you your power multiplies itself. by their power.". Uh and it's it's like it's like people. in the city who will hang out with other. people in the city who have a lot of. money or access to a lot of money. because that multiplies itself. It's. very easy to make money when you're. surrounded by other people who make. money. And it's very easy to become more. famous when you're surrounded by other. people who are incredibly famous. Almost. everything written about this wedding. was about who was there.

>> Yeah. >> You know, I mean it's and and it makes. everyone big. >> of people like, you know, Spielberg. having to show a sort of QR code to get. through. And, you know, yes, Jay-Z, I'll. have your phone off you. All of that is. is such a power move. >> They were drinking Jay-Z's champagne as. well, weren't they? >> Oh, were they? >> Ace of Spades champagne was what they. were was what they were drinking. [clears throat] I mean, it's. >> the brand opportunities were. extraordinary. >> I mean, can you can you begin to imagine. that the the money they're going to be. making out of it over the next couple of. months? >> Yeah, I mean,

but everybody people would you know, posting people with the ones with the. beauty brands like Selena Gomez were. posting, you know, putting on their own. products in the car on the way there. It. was a very modern. event. >> Yeah. My favorite bits was when their. friends from home. were there as well. And the family and. Mama Kelsey who I've been very much. enjoying on. Traitors as well. That's nice. This. there's something very beautiful at the. heart of it. That's the nice thing. That's why we're allowed to buy into it. >> can cut your way through the thicket of.

>> But as a spectacle, I would just say to. everybody everybody here who has been. married, who's about to get married, who. wants to be married in the future, think. about sitting at the kitchen table, think about getting to that 90 odd. number of people that you think, yeah, that's I think those are that's our. family, that's our close friends from. home. Those are the people actually in. the last 5 years who've really become. important to us and the people we would. love to really love to meet each other. Think about getting to that number and. add another 910 people and just think.

about how how that would be. Given, by. the way, you if you invite Steven. Spielberg, he would probably say no. So, you're you're really that's a net. you're really going to have to cross. right now. >> to know who said no. >> I would That's a document I would watch. like The Beatles Get Back 9 hours worth. I'd watch 9 hours worth of them going. through the guest list for that wedding. I would love that so much. I would just. love to hear the no's. I'd love to hear. the no's on their side and I'd love to. hear the RSVPs that came back. Would you. have got Would you have gone if you had.

been invited? I know neither of us would. ever been invited. >> absolutely Of course I would have. Of. course. >> I was I was I was I was talking to. Ingrid about this and I said, "Well, I. don't think I would go." Cuz I don't I. don't want to. I wouldn't want to go to. New York. >> it. >> Yeah, I she she went She said, "Stop me. saying I mean you're an idiot. Of course. you would go.". >> can assure you, Richard, you would be. going. >> Yes, that's true. >> I can assure [laughter] you, Ingrid, for. being informing you that you are going. >> But I just don't know how much how much. fun it would be being a thousand person. wedding with people you don't really. know that well. >> The people watching would have been off. the chain. It would have been. hysterical, absolutely hysterical. It's.

like the black and white ball times a. hundred. You could have just laughed so. much. It's just like a hilarious moment. >> It would You know what? A reason I would. have gone, it would be nice to meet Greg. James. >> Yeah. >> So after the break, we are going to talk. about I'd say famous the British Taylor. Swift, uh, Katie Price. >> [music]. >> This episode is brought to you by the. Lloyds 5K house deposit. >> Lloyds are offering a 5K house deposit. which was last seen in 1996.

What are your entertainment memories of. the 1990s? >> I feel guilty talking about the 1990s. because you look back and it was it. [laughter] was such a golden era. >> We've never had it so good and we didn't. even realize cuz we were young and we. just thought we were entitled to it all. >> We absolutely took it for granted. Yeah, Britpop was absolutely in its pomp. Oasis playing to quarter of a million. people. You had Blur and Suede and Pulp. >> I'm so sorry. >> Spice Girls, amazing movies at the. cinema, Trainspotting. I mean it it felt. a time of absolute optimism. But at the. time you just assume that was the way.

that the the world was going. >> of optimism. >> Yeah. And part of the optimism, of. course, is is mortgages were more. affordable and that is Lloyds is is. dealing with right now. >> Yeah, last seen in 1996, Lloyds are now. offering 5K deposit mortgages to. first-time buyers. Search 5K first-time. buyer. >> 1996 average first-time buyer deposit. based on ONS data, subject to status, your home may be repossessed if you. don't keep up repayments. Conditions. apply. >> [music].

>> Welcome back, everybody. Now, we are. talking about a new documentary that. drops on Wednesday. It's called Katie. Price: No Where to Hide. It's on Sky. It's made by Mindhouse, Louis Theroux's. production company, and it's directed by. Paddy Wivell. She's It's sort of. obviously been a sort of fixture of. national life, and she says it was a fun. 10 years, and the second 10 years starts. to get turbulent, and then the third 10. years it's turbulent. Uh she It's an extraordinary thing. It's.

It's very, very good, I should say. And. I And I think it's. >> And I think it's We've talked a lot. about subject-commissioned documentaries. on this podcast, and I don't know who. commissioned this, but it doesn't matter. because there's nothing she would have. taken out. I mean, she has a sort of. nuclear candor. It's It's extraordinary. >> nothing to hide. >> She has no Yeah, you know, it's beyond I. am what I am. I mean, it's amazing. There's a There's a shot really quite. near the beginning where she's showing. um Paddy Wivell, the documentary maker, you know, into her past, and they can't.

get into her garage where it's all. stored because the old pink Range Rover. she had, which has now got its windows. sort of caved in, and it was sort of. over-finched, so it says Pricey along. the back instead of Range Rover. Its. tires are down. It It's just lodged in. front of the garage door, so she has to. sort of crawl under to get in it. Anyway, she gets into this garage, and. there's a load of pink fun fur fur, and. a load of other stuff. One of the boxes just says exes and. surgery. >> Yeah, and even then she says, "Oh, that's a big box.". >> Yeah, it's it's on.

I I Okay. Before we go any further, I do want to. say that it is obviously and anyone who. has seen the pictures of her, has read. the stories about her in the last few. years, will also have the sense that it. is an incredibly sad story and it's a. awful story and that it it transitioned. from one thing to another and it's a. really and I definitely think that this. does not shy away from any of that. >> No. >> It deals kind of amazingly with her. relationship with her own body, just her. sense of herself as ugly. She always.

struggled to make friends. She's friends. with horses basically. And then. >> Yeah, there's lots of her as as as a. child just being a a sort of horse. loving quite solitary child who who who. if you listen to the family changed. overnight. >> Her family are involved in this and they. are absolutely brilliant. Everyone of. her family members is incredible. Her. mom, her sister, her brother are and her. step father are absolutely amazing. She. then turns 14 and she just becomes this. compelling sexual presence to boys and. at 16 she already knows she's going to.

be famous. She sort of changes but she's. been abused twice by then and she's a a. great narrator of her own story because. she talks about wanting to be looked at. by men, being desperate to be looked at. but not touched. And so this pictorial. thing and it's interesting because she. gets onto page three basically which is. her huge is her big break and you get in. because someone sends your pictures in. and someone took her some. her lunch break on Brighton Beach and. some pictures of her. Um and then they changed her name from. they didn't want her to be called.

>> They they went through a whole list. They said yeah that you can't be called. Kate because she she really called. herself Kate and they they show the list. and they have it's like Linda. You think. it's got to be Linda because of Linda. Lusardi but it's just like all. incredibly normal names and someone just. said how about Jordan? She just went. yeah fine. >> I mean Peter Stringfellow used to do. that with all the strippers, you know, you'd always like come over here. Cherokee. Come on come over here. And. that was not you know, everyone had to. be sort of rebranded in a. >> I mean she presents that weirdly as a. sort of sliding doors moment where her. personality splits into I don't quite. and we'll talk about it like I don't. quite buy it. I don't think her.

personality does split in two. She's She. talks quite a lot about saying there's. Jordan and then there's Katie and they. are different people and people don't. see the real me. And but a lot of what she does and how. she behaves you think no I think I think. that you there's quite a lot of you in. Jordan and there definitely is a very. gentle cuz you hear about it from people. who know it there is a gentle kind. person there but I think I think a lot. of this persona. is also you. >> Yes. But she says that because she is a. sort of master of narrative and for a.

long time she believes she can shape the. narrative about her. And it was. interesting I remember she so you got. gets on page two and I worked at the Sun. at the time and she did something it was. so ridiculous. They had a no silicon. rule on page three. You don't remember. what page three was there was a topless. women every on page three of the paper. every day. >> And nobody questioned it. >> And nobody questioned it. And she wanted. to have a boob job and she this was. right up before the sort of. democratization of this surgery which. was not which we now you know is is.

completely sort of democratized. But the Sun sort of I mean I hated all. this aspects of the Sun. They they sort. of felt they were drawing a line in the. sand and they you know readers had to be. able to believe what they saw in terms. of the text they were being shown. And. remember they were so prissy in the Sun. that they would asterisk out the central. eye of the word tit cuz you know words. had to be asterisked. Often when they. were three inches east of a pair of the. actual thing. Anyway, but uh they pulled. the readers should she do it she. shouldn't do it. And I remember at the. time cuz I worked there and I was doing.

picture research at the time and people. were like she's so stupid she's so. headstrong she's she's destroyed her. career now cuz she can't appear on page. three anymore cuz she's done this. Anyway, she ends up doing Playboy and. all things like that but actually I. think what was so interesting her at the. time about her at the time was yes she. was headstrong but she'd foreseen. something that they had not seen which. is that a new type of. fame was becoming available and. ownership of yourself was a possibility. >> And she also said, "I wanted them to be.

fake. I wanted them to look fake. I. wanted that fake look. That's the thing. that I I wanted to do. I wasn't trying. to deceive anyone. I wanted them to look. fake." Which is that's a very. interesting character note. >> But also to be told, "You won't work. here again." And to think, "Well, you. know what? I back myself." And she did. back herself. >> Which she does time after time in this. occasion for ill, but but she does it. >> That represents a new kind of. monetization at that point in celebrity. culture, which was Okay, there's the lad mags and. there's an explosion of the lad mags and.

you can make money through those. She's. always sold pap sho- pap shots. I've. watched the first two episodes of the. documentary. I don't know if she gets. into how much she sells pap pap shots, but. >> Listen, there's a very interesting the. the very first kind of thing where one. of the pap says she Well, she said like. I. I was going out. This is after she'd had. Harvey and they were selling, you know, photos of me and they were getting paid. for it. She said, "So, I just thought, well, hold on. I'm going to go out. anyway and someone's getting paid for. these photographs. I want to get paid.". So, she teamed up with one of the paps, one of the agencies. And he speaks completely freely about.

it. He said that she would get. photographed coming in and then she'd. tell me, "I'm coming out the back." I. would photograph her. There'd always be. a couple of fellas that are holding her. up. She'd give me a little wink. I'd. send in the. photos. There'd be a code on it, which. is my code, so I get my money. There'd. also be a code on it, which was Katie's. code, and so she would get her money as. well. And you And you know, she But she. says it said, "This is why I did it. It. was They were showing it anyway. I knew. someone was making money. I thought, well, I would I would like me to be. making that money.". >> took ownership of her value in a way. that was actually sort of very was. radical, but it's even more than that.

It's that. the idea she saw herself clearly. She. becomes very quickly. she sees herself as a serial drama. And. the Kardashians, Keeping Up With the. Kardashians, only launches in 2007. I. mean, it now feels like we've lived in. that era for a long time, but that then. it's tied to PAs, to endorsements, and. the idea that there's a narrative. momentum to your own life that people. will buy into, figuratively and. literally, that they will buy things.

And it was a sort of train wreck era of. all, you know, Lindsay Lohan and Britney. Spears, but she always seemed to be just. about in control of her train at that. time. And these books about her life, you know, her autobiographies, the the. sales on those is is unbelievable. >> Even the first few novels, she did I. think she did about 12 novels now. And. the sales now are not what they were, but the first few were big. >> The first one was 400,000 copies in. hardback. >> Yeah. >> That's a lot. >> That's a lot. >> Obviously, she has evolved. And I mean, if we just flash forward to the present.

day, lots of we had so many questions. about this, and we never really answered. it because. you'll you may know that uh the I mean, she her latest escapade is that she. met a guy, they got married after just a few days. He he he they got. >> you know, obviously tattoos of each. other. A proposal identical to a one he. made very recently to a woman. He lives. in Dubai. He's obviously, I'm sorry to. say, Leandros. He's a complete wrong. Has he got a Cambridge doctorate? I. don't think he has. He can't leave. Dubai. And people were saying, "Oh, he. can't leave Dubai." And she was like,

"He I he can. He's coming to me. Watch. him." Anyway, just when he was due to. travel, he says, "I've been He rings her. and says, you know, I've been kidnapped. I've been taken to a black site." Which. I think it's incredibly hard to tell, might be connected to some fraud. allegations, which. >> he denies. I mean, he denies a whole lot. of things. I think from a hair. transplant to fraud allegations to the. fact that he can. leave Dubai. >> And this is the ongoing drama, and it's. incredibly hard to know what is actually. happening.

>> Well, Paddy Paddy Wivell, the director. of this, who I have to say does a great. job, he. he said in an interview, he said, "The. hardest thing about the documentary was. knowing where to end it." He said, "Cuz. I'd be in the edit for like sort of 3. months, and I'd think, "Okay, okay, I. think I've got it now." And then I'd get. a call and I'd go, "Sorry, Lee who?" And. because it just. >> It's. >> it never ends. >> Even now she is totally compelling and. I'd sort of forgotten because there's a. lot you have to look away from now. She. you know, she's so thin, she's obviously. had so unbelievably many surgeries.

>> It's interesting they talk really good. access all the way through that. As I. say, family, when they're talking about. affairs, when they're talking about the. Gareth Gates and Gareth Gates is there. talking about it. When they want to talk. about Dane Bowers, he is there talking. about her as well. But they talked the. guy who did her first ever breast. surgery. So he talks about it. He said, "This and. this this was the size of it." He said, "And then she came back and wanted a. bigger one." He said, "And then she came. back again and wanted a bigger one." He. said, "No, you can't I mean you. you can't.". And then Paddy goes, "Well, what. happened then?" And he went, "Well, she.

just went somewhere else and someone. else did it for her.". >> She is a force of nature and there's. something about sort of. girls like that that you do see slightly. feel like built built the country to. some degree and they should really have. been toiling around with all the beds in. the 2012 opening ceremony, you know? And. I sort of in a way, I don't know why you. you compare it to her an opera diva, you. know, where the life is just this. extraordinary tragedy that sublimated. into something. Or picaresque, you know, picaresque novels are normally about. sort of roguish men, but there are. there's a subsection of them that are.

about kind of lower class women who use. their wiles to. >> I was I was I was thinking I was I was. thinking about exactly that. It feels. like a 19th century novel. It really. does. And you know, these characters. have always existed. >> right? >> They've always existed and she's just. molded herself to the times in which she. lives. And actually she's molded some of. the times in which she lives as well. You know, she has the curse of being. compelling. Lots of people had her. background, lots of people had the. things that happened to her, lots of. people had her talents, lots of people. had her story, but she is so compelling.

to people that she is enabled at every. single step of her journey. >> what she means. And what I I very weird. about it is that she's always lent in as. we've discussed so completely hard to. whatever sells. >> Yeah. >> And I think that she now sees in and. this is the sort of part of the tragedy. of it. She sees herself as a cautionary. tale and so she sees that the cautionary. tale is the thing that sells the most. And we quite hard because although this. you know, this business of commodifying. yourself in the way that she has is. quite young in the scope of human.

history except in you know, I guess some. professions or whatever but the there's. a point where you don't really know. whether. it's the dynamics of the story where. that stops and where she starts or what. which what she's doing because it would. make a good story and it's very. difficult to think of. whether just the sales or her are in the. driving seat. >> It's interesting because as you say. she's brutally honest all the way. through. She doesn't hold back. She. answers every single question but her. she doesn't seem to have as much. self-knowledge as you would expect. And.

I think you know, by the time you get to. the age of 48 perhaps you should have. some of that. self-knowledge. Her family seem to have. a great deal of knowledge about her and. kind of understand her and they're it's. every time something new happens. [laughter] like Dane or Gareth and they. just cut to one of the family and they. were just like, "And then we heard about. this." And we're like, "Oh, no.". >> I think they're they're exceptional. people. But you're dealing with a force of. nature. You see that when you see that. family who are so great in so many ways. but you some people.

>> Yes. >> It's it's. >> They can't control her. >> mind that. Nature nature will find a. way. >> Yeah, if that family cannot control her, she is not going to be controlled. because they are they are super bright. But there's only one moment I find out. in that first two episodes where Paddy. calls her out on how she treated Gareth. Gates and says, "I think you humiliated. him." And it's the only point where she. goes, "Yeah, I may Yeah, gosh. I sort of. suppose I did." It's almost like. everything that's being asked of her is. something she's considering for the. first time. So, she lives her life. >> Well, she's incredibly compulsive. Yes, she's a she is a. very very compulsive person and I mean I.

can recognize elements of that. That. it's better to just go forward and. compartmentalize things. But one of the. things you should take away from it is. the idea of the audience because. if you feel like you have a look at it. if you think you've been able to look. away from her while for a while cuz she. is compelling. And the audience gaze, that's been a huge part of this. And she. as a. I mean, physically, I mean, to look at. and as a story holds a mirror up to. society. You know, what is fetishized.

and normalized and then kind of expected. of women's bodies. The abuse of it, the actual abuse of it, direct, um, criminal in some cases and indirect. And. the collateral damage of it to these. people around her. And then there's this. sort of woman, this tiny woman kind of. staggering on in the middle of it all. >> Yeah, she seems in the middle of all of. this and in in in in the middle of this. cultural force. She does seem to retain. her agency, which I think makes it even. more. fascinating cuz she seems to be. complicit in a lot of what happens in in.

in a way you don't often see in these. documentaries. I do I think it's really. worth people watching it and it it it it. will you will make your own mind up and. everyone will have different opinions, I. think. >> well done. >> It's it's really really well done. It's. it's it's terrifically interesting. Um, and if I may segue, it is on Sky. on Wednesday and we will finish by. talking a little bit about Sky cuz they. have just bought. ITV. If you're wondering what that. means, I mean, I sense it's it's been on. the cards for a long time. >> Well, we yeah, we first talked about it. when we knew it was.

significantly on the cards last year. Um, they then they were talking about it. buying it for 2 billion. They've bought. it for 1.6 billion, which a lot of. people were saying it'll be worth about. half that in a year. So, they've the. price has come down. Um, not ITV. Studios, we should say, the networks. arm. So, the free-to-air PSB ITV, that's. five channels. >> Yeah. So, ITV Studios. are other production companies. So, they. haven't bought that. The people who. actually make programs. They bought the. gobbins of the thing. >> So, what does this mean? Well, Sky is.

Sky's owned by Comcast, but this is. interestingly this is Sky's deal. It's. been driven completely by Dana Strong. who runs Sky in the UK. As the whys of. it we talked about before, but you know, Sky is too small in pay and ITV is too. small in advertising and you go for. scale and you share many costs. You. know, cost synergies is obviously a. euphemism and we'll have to get to that. because I think that Sky could take. about 1.6 billion in cost synergies even. before you start the idea of kind of. strategic business synergies.

What you're seeing here is two of the. three biggest advertising houses merge. So, in terms of who should be most. worried. we'll talk about within Sky and ITV, but. Channel 4 should be most worried because. how do you get protections from being on. the sidelines as the smallest. advertising house now? This is going to. take a while to go through because the. Competition and Markets Authority who. decide whether or not you've got too. much share of the market or you've. tending towards monopoly. As we've said, consolidation sort of has to happen.

>> Yeah, if you look at both of them, you. know, Sky very, very open. They said we. have to get growth. We have to get. growth and we can't get growth in with. our current business plan because that's. not that's not where the market is and. ITV can't get growth with where they are. because that's not where the market is. either. Together there is some sort of. synergy, so it makes absolute sense. In. terms of what would it actually mean as. a viewer? At first very, very, very little. The. ITV shows will remain on ITV. The Sky. shows will remain on Sky. There's. certainly going to be a discussion about. why don't we put Saturday Night Live on.

ITV and suddenly we can get 2 million. extra viewers, but those discussions. haven't been had. That's not what. they're planning to do. >> wants to be the aggregator. >> Yeah, exactly. >> to use ITV's crown jewels, so you'll. have Love Island and you'll have World. Cup. You'll have all sorts of things. like that. >> But again, on a streaming platform. So, the streaming platform will. [clears throat] be Sky and ITV. So, what. it actually means a couple of things. It. actually means we talked before about. this. need for iPlayer and the other. terrestrial broadcasters to team up with. each other to to form one thing that.

which would be BBC, ITV, and Channel 4. That will now not happen with ITV. >> Not with ITV. >> But Channel Channel 4 and BBC 1. therefore I mean Channel Channel 4 have. to team up with. >> We you talked about it before like a. strategic rationale. It is now not just. a good idea, it's an imperative idea. Like Channel 4 and the BBC have to find. a way to come together. >> Yeah. >> Um you've got the sort of floating voter. in the form of Five which is owned by. Paramount and obviously. both sides would be saying come in with. us, but I don't think actually with. those ads with that ad sales point that. I've made earlier that that would even.

be possible for So be the BBC and. Channel 4 and Five I mean they've really. got to sort of come together and and. they've got to do the You're just. looking to try and have these. destinations of scale because otherwise. you're going to get swallowed up. It's I. have to say that. >> I think I think by the way it's not. happening at the moment because Channel. 4 is in such a weak position that it's. very hard that they know that they would. be eaten now. Whereas if they have a. couple of good years, a couple of big. years, a couple of big hits then. actually. >> think they have I think the both the BBC. have to go over themselves and Channel 4.

have to go over themselves and they have. to find a way to do this and and I don't. think they should be wasting two years. in my opinion. >> Yeah, but but there's ego involved, right? >> Okay, but the time for ego is now long. past and they have Yes, I agree, but. they'd have to find a way to give it. equal prominence and do all of those. things. I I think within within Sky. itself, you know, Sky have often sort of. said. I don't know. I'd be worried if I worked. at Sky News I have to say and Sky Arts. because those.

those those things have been have sort. of existed. I think Sky Comcast would. have got rid of Sky News as soon as they. were allowed to. with the obligation. of the obligation passed for them to. have to keep it open. But now, you know, Sky will have. a PSB, they'll have a news arm. They had. things like Sky Arts and Sky News as a. sort of lost leader to be part of the. ecosystem. But if you now have one via. our O TV, I fear that would be one of the. sort of synergies, as it were. Sky is. going to be ultimately be a victim of. people unbundling, okay? Because they.

they just are. And they've been good at managing not to. make that happen, but a lot of pressure. has been on the football. Because the. football is what they have, basically. >> Can you explain to people what. unbundling means? >> Unbundling means that you don't say, "Oh, I'm not going to I'm not going to. I'm going to have the I'm not going to. have these Sky services." Say, at the. moment they've got a big issue, which is. that they've still got a lot of people. paying 80 quid a month for their telly. And if you say, "Okay, well, I'm going. to unbundle. I'm not going to have I'm. not going to get this all through Sky. I'm going to have Freely and Netflix and.

Prime. and HBO Max, and I'm still going to be. paying way less." That So, there's been. a lot of pressure because they do have. they do have the football. I have to. say, the new government green paper is. trying to list all sorts of different. events and make it more difficult. So, you need other stuff. Because the. football has been this kind of huge. thing that has kind of kept it up. They. need other stuff. They don't make that. much content at all. But I do think that. those synergies mean that some of the. stuff they do make is going to fall. away. >> Yeah, well, they've got plenty of money, which is good. They don't have the shop.

window quite as much as ITV, whereas ITV. got less money than they did, but have. this incredible shop window. Everyone involved you talk to on each. side is feels fairly comfortable with. it. As you say, I think they'll you. know, they'll they'll will be. redundancies as as some some jobs are. are kind of doubled up. I would think. something like Sky Arts would be fairly. safe because ITV is a PSB. Everyone at. Sky is saying, "We absolutely needs to. stay a PSB." No one at Sky is going, "No, we're going to bring this entirely. into the commercial thing. We're going. to try and get out of all of our PSB.

obligations." That doesn't seem to be. what they're saying. And therefore, you. know, ITV do have to do arts. programming. >> Yeah, they get huge They get They get. huge protection to be a PSB. So, they. want that. They've always tried to argue. for being a PSB because we provide. things like Sky Arts and Sky News but. they don't actually have any of the PSB. obligations so they don't but they have. argued to try and get into that. >> best thing about being a PSB is that. you're you're right at the front. You're. you know, front and center when you turn. your television on. That's the that's. the main best thing about being a PSB. but I would I would have thought Sky. Arts is perfect. You know, that's a. really easy thing for ITV to have to put.

all of its arts. programming through. >> I'm not sure about that but anyway. >> Yeah, well listen, we'll see. But the news thing will be very very. interesting as well. But yeah, in in in. terms of being a viewer, I think almost. nothing changes apart from. you know, what's going to happen with. iPlayer and that's completely changed. now because I I I. like ITV are not going to go anywhere. near it, I think and BBC and Channel 4. have to set up something together. >> Yeah. >> AS TV. >> on the remote. I keep saying this. They. need a button on the remote. You can't. compete with the American streams. You.

need a button on the remote. >> Yeah. >> That's something the government could do. but anyway. >> Yeah. Well, listen, maybe that maybe. they're listening. They wouldn't have. got to the end. They'd be like, "Oh no, I I I was only listening for Taylor. Swift and Katie Price.". >> [laughter]. >> When it got to the Sky thing, I was. like, "Yeah, I'm I'm I'm less. interested.". Any recommendations. >> you my recommendations. Tournament. football all day and all night. That's. all I'll be doing and that's all I have. been doing. What about you? >> If you like the idea of Monopoly but. hate playing it cuz it takes so long, Monopoly Deal which is a card game you.

can play. It's a bit like Rummy that you. got to collect sets but it's it's a it's. like a much quicker, much more fun. version of Monopoly. >> MD in the pub with the kids. >> You call it MD? >> MD. >> Oh, really? Are you playing it too? >> I've I've I've played a lot. I've had to. ban it being played in certain places. such as restaurants. I've Yes. Yeah, I. urge you to impose restrictions on it if. younger people are playing cuz it can. get actually in some ways nastier. >> It can get It's quite frustrating. It's. quite frustrating. I don't think I've ever actually won a. game. >> Wow, really? Okay, yeah. I'm likewise.

probably. >> I've got a competitive family. and I'll also recommend as we were. talking earlier about picaresque 19th. century novels. I'm reading No Name. [clears throat] by Wilkie Collins. I've. just finished No Name by Wilkie Collins, which I don't think that many people. talk about. It's a really, really, really, really terrific book. And by the. way, any. drama execs listening would make an. amazing adaptation. It's got It's got. like some central characters who you. just think, "Oh my god.". >> Oh god, I'm going to buy it when I. leave. I haven't read it. >> No Name, it's called. It's It's long, like all of those things. >> I can imagine. >> Yeah, but you 100% Katie Price could.

would be right in the middle of that. book. >> Right. Other than that, we are back on. Thursday with a Q&A. But also, which I. enjoyed very, very much, and the second. part of your special bonus series on. what World Cup have we got this week? We've had US sitcoms. >> We are doing the World Cup of British. bands. So, who are the best British band. of all time according to the British. people? We've already recorded it. I. will say this, I will say it's very interesting.

I will say it's. >> How did they think of you? >> very, very interesting. Jon Robins and. Mase and Adam are back to talk about. that. If you want to become a member, which is ad-free listening and all of. our bonus content, it is. therestisentertainment.com. We'd love to have you. But for everyone. else, we will continue to be free twice. a week, every week. >> See you on Thursday. >> Thursday. >> [music]. [music].