The Rock Is Becoming A "Country Star"

An entertaining podcast is what we. promised this week. What are we talking. about? >> We we're talking about lots of lots of. big sports franchises have just been. bought by people we've actually heard. of. Um Jeff Bezos has bought a bit of. Liverpool um among others. And Bob Iger, former Disney CEO, has bought the bought. the Lakers among others. and why and why. we're going to discuss also going to. discuss we spoke um a couple years ago. about micro dramas and now they are. literally everywhere and they started in.

China and you'll be surprised to learn. that there are developments in the. Chinese micro drama industry which I. think people will find interesting. >> Yes. And we're also gonna be checking in. on, as you know, my favorite cultural. polymath, um, The Rock. >> Friend of the podcast. >> Friend of the podcast. Um, whether or. not he knows it and [laughter]. and what he's up to at the moment. There. are musical developments. >> Oh, yeah. He's got new plans. He's got. new plans. >> He has got new plans. >> The rest is entertainment is presented.

by Octopus Energy. Now, one talent can. make a career. Three usually gets you an. official title. >> Yep. And that official title is a triple. threat. You call triple threat anyone. who can act, sing, and dance. >> Now these days, three can seem almost. modest. The same person might write, direct, produce, and have another career. on the side. >> JLo would be a triple threat. Huge music. career, started as a dancer, huge acting. career as well. It's an amazing talent. to be able to have. >> And now drinks mogul as well.

>> Is she? >> You have you have to be the mogul now. I. think the mogul is always the third. thing. Now this. >> So she's a quadruple threat. >> Yeah. I I sing, I act, and I have a. lifestyle portal. >> But uh that phrase, all singing all. dances, it escaped entertainment, and. now it's used for anyone and anything. that does several jobs very well all at. once, >> which is a pretty fair description of. octopus. It's the UK's largest energy. supplier, one of the country's biggest. installers of heat pumps, solar panels, and batteries, and it runs a major. electric car leasing business for good.

measure. >> I mean, that's a quadruple threat, isn't. it? >> That's a quadruple threat. Uh we start with sports organizations. and sports rights. Now I I had an idea a. little while ago I thought one one day. on the podcast we should do um what's. the best way to make a billion dollars. in media. So say we had to start today. and in a year's time we had to have. built something that would make us a. billion dollars. I thought oh that'd be. an interesting item. So, I was sort of. thinking it through and think, you know, brings together lots of things we talk. about. >> And then it's been it's been blown out. of the water this week by a man called.

Mark Walter, who um is CEO of of uh a. company called Guggenheim. And he bought. the LA Lakers, one of the uh the biggest. basketball teams in existence, one of. the most stories sports franchises. anywhere in the world for $10 billion. Uh and he sold them last week for $12.5. billion. So he has made $2.5 billion. in a year for sort of doing nothing at. all. And the question is why? And the. question is firstly, why did he spend.

$10 billion on the LA Lakers in the. first place? Why is it worth that? And. secondly, why, as you say, have Bob. Iger, former Disney man, and Josh. Kushner, it's a surname we didn't hear. so much um uh until a few years ago, why. have they teamed up to buy it for 12? >> Yeah, you hear it all the time now. This. guy's like the bloody Zelig of our. culture, isn't he? You hear him. He's. everywhere. >> We've got Jared who's currently in the. Middle East um solving that issue and. we've got Josh who has bought the LA. Lakers, >> right? >> And yeah, Josh Kushner is Jared.

Kushner's brother, but politically very. different. Apparently Josh Kushner is. something of a Democrat, they say. Or. >> something of a. >> Yeah. Allbeit a Democrat with a. >> $2 billion sake and open AI, but uh it's. something. >> Yeah. >> Whereas Jared is less of a Democrat, I. think. >> Yeah. I mean, I think he would probably. try and say that he's kind of. politically agnostic. >> Yeah, I think it feels like he may got a. touch of the Republican about him. >> A touch of it. Just a little touch. >> The father uh who is Charles Kushner, he. he first uh came into the media when he.

was jailed for a number of things, including hiring prostitutes to try and. seduce his brother-in-law in a blackmail. pact. Uh it will shock you to learn part. A of what happened next, which is Trump. pardoned him. It will shock you further. to to learn that part B of that was uh. Trump then made him ambassador to. France. That's a family to be part of. >> What an elegant diplomatic post that one. is. Yeah. >> So Josh Kushner runs a company called. Thrive Capital and Thrive Capital are a.

venture capital firm. They were very. early investors in Instagram. They've. got a huge holding in open AI. So they. invest in tech stocks and things like. that. >> They now have an arm called Thrive. Eternal. and Thrive Eternal, which for a. company who is hugely hugely invested in. AI, Thrive Eternal is essentially trying. to find any company that will not be. destroyed by AI. >> Well, as a hedge against a hedge against. their other investments, >> their enormous investments and. everything else and sports media is.

>> and this is the bit that Bob Iger, who. was the longtime legendary here uh. chairman of Disney from 2005 to the end. of last year and and was widely seen as. one of their greatest ever leaders. >> He's a visionary. If Bob Iger is doing. something, you should pay attention. Now, Mark Walter, so this guy, he's just. made two a half billion uh in a year. So, buys um the LA Lakers, you know, he. owns loads of different um uh sporting. things. He owns a bit of Chelsea as. well. It's he has not done anything. particularly difficult in the last year. and he's made $2.5 billion. That tells.

you everything about sport. He was in. the he bought this thing 10 billion. It's looking he's going to keep it. forever. He was then being investigated. by the federal tax authorities and. various other things. Needed a bit of. quick cash. Um Gen gets a phone call. from Bob Iger and Josh Kushner saying. would you sell us the LA Lakers? He's. like well actually I do need some quick. cash. How much have you got? They say 12. billion. It's done in 3 days. The whole. deal is done in three days.

>> Yes. >> Incredibly quick. And it was worth 10. billion to my water for sure. It's. definitely worth 12 a.5 billion to. Kushner and Iger as well. It's there. there will be a ceiling to this but we. haven't got close to that ceiling yet. It is a small amount of franchises, a. really small asset class. There are more. billionaires than there are sports. franchises. There are more viewers out. there who want to watch sport than want. to watch anything else. And there's more. loyalty in those viewers. So the money.

we sort of even haven't scraped the. surface of it yet I think. >> and there's a big debate as to whether. sports rights are now just too expensive. prohibitively expensive and not. delivering the value that they should at. those prices. >> So why are people paying all this money? Why is Bezos also he's part of a. consortium uh essentially that's going. to buy the um uh who's going to buy. control in Liverpool. So they they. bought a small stake now and they had. the. >> they bought a third again and and. they've and the people they've bought. off Femway Sports Group have made a huge. profit in on that.

>> They bought it for I think 406 million. and and it's now valued somewhere around. 78 billion and you think that feels like. quite a lot of money but there's a. unique set of things in our media um. universe that means that these companies. are worth an awful lot of money. I mean. they're insanely expensive and you know. they're they're probably going to get a. bit more expensive. There will be a. ceiling of course but you know when you. got people like Jeff Bezos with a you. know this stake in Liverpool you know he. owns one of the biders for for sports. rights. I mean there is a there's.

there's a virtuous circle there. somewhere that you know people could. keep pumping money around the same. engine. >> and obviously both of these um Disney. own ESPN but Amazon are now showing. games themselves. So you can see why. there's there's sort of idea of. synergies between not just the. e-commerce side of it and the tech side. of it. They're trying to get into actual. owning the rights. >> The biggest thing is the scarcity of. sports franchises. It feels like.

unfettered capitalism. It feels like oh. these guys you know what these guys are. actually pushing out on their own and. they're spending all this money and good. for them. Actually what they're doing. they're buying into sort of a socialist. collective. Well, yes, because and. actually it's interesting because what I. could have done and what people thought. he was going to do, this is a surprise, this particular bill, was that they're. going to have a new franchise in Vegas. They Vegas don't have a basketball team, blah blah. So, they were going to do one. of those and you know, you can and you. can buy in at the start and they thought. that he was going to buy that. In fact, he's done, you know, like when people.

say rather in the way when actually the. first people to have bought Liverpool, um, those dreadful ones that they got. rid of eventually, Hicks and Gilllet, >> um, when they said, you know, you can't. buy whatever it was 120 years of. history. What you can. >> Yes, [laughter] you really can. It. depends how much money you got. >> Um, and um, and so yes, they are buying. these big big things in the same way. that Liverpool is now the top earning. Premier League club. Um, it's the fourth. most valuable club in the world. So. there are very few of these things. >> Yes. And that's why they're so valuable. It's scarcity. This is why rich people.

have always invested in fine art or. classic cars because it is finite. There. are not any more of those things being. made. It's it's a very small asset group. of things. And sport is that. So if we. wanted to set up a chicken restaurant. tomorrow, we could. And we could go on a. high street that's already got eight. chicken restaurants. It doesn't matter. And if we make better chicken than. everyone else, we'll make money. And. that's supposed to be capitalism. We. couldn't tomorrow go and set up a. Premier League football team. You know, it would be impossible. You could sort. of set up a minor one and you know take. 15 years to to go through the leagues. and become a Premier League football.

team. But you can't do it. You can't go. and buy an you can't set up your own NFL. team as always. I should have realized. of course the easiest way to make a. billion dollars is already have $300. billion. That's because then it's very. easy to make a billion. So people are. buying into these in the same way that. they used to buy into classic cars or. fine art. JP Morgan did a they looked at. every single billionaire on their books. and what those people earned and 20% of. their billionaires uh had a controlling. interest in some sort of sports team. somewhere and over 30% had some interest.

in a sports arena or a sports team which. is more than now invest in fine art or. cars is like one of the biggest asset. classes now if you're a billionaire the. safest place to put your money is sport. and the safest place is sport because it. is protected because there's not going. to be any more of them cuz the media. rights, which is where it's interesting. to us. The media rights are sort of held. in a cartel, which is, you know, if. you're an NFL team, you all uh join. together and sell those media rights to.

one particular buyer. Uh, you know, you. can't, you know, the LA Lakers can't go. off and do their own ones. A smaller. team can't do their own ones. It's all. cartelized. The whole thing is. incredibly anti- capitalist, and that's. why it's worth so much money. You add in. then of course this insane level of kind. of fandom that you get around the world. You say, "Okay, it's great. We got. fandom around the world, but you know. BTS could very very easily be superseded. in a few years by four other K-pop. bands." Whereas the LA Lakers can't be. because there's not going to be any more.

teams or if there be one or two. So it's. literally you've got you can plan for. the future. You can plan you know. forever and ever. And the absolute key. to it as you say is Thrive Eternal. It. is AI proof. It is live unscripted. entertainment which is something that AI. can't do and all of these is human and. all of these billionaires worked out. quite a long time ago like with live. nation you know concerts and things like. that the thing to invest in now which I. think is good news. >> is humanity is things that are real it's.

things that will bring people together. it's things that AI can't do things that. a computer can't do and that's one of. the many you know if you add all those. things together that's why this guy has. just earned $2.5 billion. for doing absolutely nothing. And it all. ties into the fact that, you know, the. Netflixes of this world are paying huge. premiums for live events now. That's the. stuff that they really really want. You. know, for example, they're doing this. brilliant new Luke Little show. Have you. read about this? Where 20 amateurs take. on Luke Litler over one leg and if any. of them win, they win £51,000.

And that's that's just a big. Oh my god, everyone's going to be. watching the big big live event. And. those are incredibly important to all. the streamers and all the channels. You. look at the BBC last week with the um. European Athletics Championships, just. such huge ratings for them, like far and. above the stuff that it was replacing at. almost every turn. You know, these. things are incredibly important at a. time where you're not getting 50 million. for something anymore. If you get. something that can really really get you. 3, four million, and these sports things. can there's absolute gold dust for.

absolutely everyone. You can see where. the money's coming from. >> I Yes. I I also think that there's. something I mean it's it's weird when. you think back to I mean really just a. few years ago and people would be would. be completely cringed out if anyone. called football a product or content or. anything like that. >> or a franchise. >> now they really think of it not not lots. of the fans because of course lots of. the fans are opposed to this we can get. on to that um but um they think of it as.

IP um these people think of it as IP and. It's interesting because there is a. there is so much money in entertainment. If you think of sport as a branch of. entertainment um there is so much money. in entertainment and it costs so you. know think of the other things that um. say Bezos has bought but well Prime. bought you know all of the Tolken stuff. but you've got to get a show like the. rings of going you've got yeah again. that one is you've got to get it going. It's still a risk every time it goes out. there. Sport is not a risk in the same.

way because you have these incredibly. invested fans. You have a huge history. You have archive, library, everything. It's an amazing asset in terms of it. constantly regenerates. It constantly. regenerates its stories. It can be. always on. What it's interesting what. clearly Liverpool are attract by the way. also. these other lots of clubs in terms of. particularly in football are thinking. okay other other people are owned by pro. states and they're backed by this kind.

of thing um in order to stay competitive. you know we need money we need these. things we need inward investment. >> but what they're really attracted to in. terms of that um the Bezos consortium. which is not just Bezos it's Edardo. Savant. Yeah. Who's one of the. >> Yes. Who Andrew Garfield played in the. social network. >> Social network. He's one of the Facebook. founders. >> He's buying it. >> Yeah. Um and they like how global they. are in terms of e-commerce and tech and. all of those things and the way that you. can particularly in um in in India and.

Asia and places that they consider still. to be unexploited underexploited. markets. >> Then you see with some someone like Bob. Iger. What Bob Iger has done. Bob Iger. understood franchises and how massive. they were in quite a sort of early way. compared to lots of other people um in. Hollywood. If you think what he did. maybe some of the biggest moves he did. were to bring in under the Disney. marquee Marvel Pixar and Star Wars those. are all I deals when you buy this stuff. and then you exploit it across the parks.

the cruises the merchandise. Well, I was. going to say that's that's the other. thing that I really really understands. is he sat at the top of a company that. people thought just made cartoons and he. was able to look at the books and. understand quite how much of Disney's. fortunes rely on theme parks and cruise. ships and real people going to real. places to do real things and have real. experiences. So that's absolutely in his. DNA which is why he also he sees sport. as such an incredibly good fit for. becoming much much much richer. >> Yes. And as we said, it's the other.

thing that's sort of interesting about. it is that we know it is appointment to. view. We know that people come and they. watch it live. Uh you can make it global. like they have with Liverpool and it's. this enduring IP. And the other thing. about it, as you say, is. >> it has already been created by somebody. else. I mean, by the way, so had Marvel. and Pixar and Star Wars when he bought. them under the Disney marquee. These the. Lakers is a long storyried and it is an. amaz I mean you know it's very cool. The.

Lakers is cool. >> It is cool. Here's the thing to imagine. This is why. >> it's much cooler than the New Vegas. team. Let's. >> Yes, it is. We don't know about yet. >> But here's the reason sports is so crazy. and here's the reason sports is becoming. so profitable. Imagine you could buy. Taylor Swift. Imagine you could buy. Taylor Swift and you were assured that. there were only going to be 20 other pop. stars. >> for the next 15 or 20 years. So you. controlled her. There's only going to be. 20 other pop stars. H and you could take. all the money. That's what buying a. sports team is. And imagine that all of.

those pop stars joined together and. anytime you wanted to hear a record or. see a video, they all had to agree and. they all got paid all at the same time. You know, that's what sport is, which is. absolutely insane. incredibly expensive, but it is in some ways, I think, the. least risky bet in entertainment. because, as I say, all these other. things that they might be building up. under their streaming banners or. wherever it is, it might fail. In fact, you know, as you always say, most most. things fail. >> Yes, exactly. >> Um, this is something that isn't going.

to fail because even if it's a disaster, this many people are still invested in. it. There is a huge amount as and as. we've said there's more entertainment. out there than there ever has been and. lots of it is incredibly expensive but. it's unclear the value of lots of that. entertainment. I mean what would happen. now they've overexloit you know Disney. overexploited Star Wars what is the. value of that now? I mean I would argue. that it's it's problematic and it's. overvalued. Um but. >> also I mean the other thing which is a. whole separate podcast item really is.

the cost of these sports rights. So, the. the NBA wants to be a platform and. they've got an 11-year deal with Disney, NBC, Universal, and Amazon as well. >> So, the NBA is a national basketball. association. >> Now, the rights to show the games, of. which some of the games are Lakers. games, are 76 billion. I mean, there is. a lot of debate now, and we know this in. football, we know certainly we know this. in the NFL. Is it actually worth it? What people are having to pay? People. have always historically thought it was. worth, you know, CBS have thought to.

have the NFL kind of going through their. pipes is worth it for the Halo effect, but it is so unbelievably expensive and. you can see that it's getting parcelled. down and the rights packages are. becoming more sort of, you know, you. don't get all of it. Some of it goes as. we see some games go to Amazon, some. games go to wherever. >> But it's all appointment to view. Yeah, >> I think it's better to buy the franchise. than it is to be on the side to be on. the buy side if you're trying to get the. rights because the rights are so. expensive now and there is a big debate.

on what what people do about the rights. because it is just so completely I mean. I don't want to say it's extortionate. but we did talk about cartels. >> Yeah, I mean it sort of is a cartel and. it's hard because as a fan actually the. idea of there being a fixed amount of. franchises really really works. That's. why football really really works. This. is why the NFL really works because. there are a certain group of teams and. you choose your one. If there are new. ones coming along every 5 seconds, it it. sort of muddies the water a bit. Actually, it really really works for. fans. What doesn't work for fans is, of. course, as soon as you have a small. group of teams, small group of.

franchises, uh, and they have this. incredible economic power and they can, you know, sell the rights for huge. amounts of money. [snorts] They also can. charge you whatever they want. >> Yeah. And they can make you buy lots of. different subscriptions as we've seen. now which is which people hate even more. that in order to get everything they've. got to go to all you know they've got to. have lots of different subscriptions. whereas before they had to they could. get one package. >> Yeah. And every year you got three. different new kits. You know there's. there's lots and lots of ways of taking. that fan base and making money out of. them which would not be the case if. there were loads of competing franchises.

that could happen all the time. But I. think the whole the whole point of sport. is that there are a small amount of. franchises and we all know what they. are. We all know where they are. We all. know which one our local one is. So I. get that. But it is absolutely being uh. it's it's like it's like kind of cows. coming across a meadow no one's ever. seen before that is literally just full. of grass that is going to last them. forever and ever and ever. [clears throat]. >> When I read the Basil story, I was like, "Oh my god, are the same five guys going. to just own everything, whatever it is.". It's like I find it very very.

depressing. And I do think that that. there's a reason why these richest men. all all want these kind of doesn't have. to be just sport. There are obviously. the entertainment things as well, but. there's something particular about sport. that it seems like it's a sort of nexus. of politics and business and. entertainment. And if you looked at the. recent World Cup and you saw just the. the people who are in the kind of. absolutely expensive seats, which of. course they love to show you with the. American cameras and the FIFA cameras, >> it it really is a sort of it's a bizarre. kind of talking shop where it's almost.

like an offshoot of one of those. billionaire retreat conferences where. they're all doing business together. And. I find it really actually depressing. that such a small number of people are. going to own so many things in our. world. So many of the sort of front. facing things, things that people enjoy. Um and for it to be, you know, for. Bezos, both cushioners. >> Yeah. >> Uh they they they if you look at what. they bought into in gaming, in. everything, they're just sort of buying.

everything. >> Well, sport is is is also there's. tremendous social capital in it. You. know, never underestimate the fact the. thing with billionaires is if you got. 300 billion dollars, then you can spend. $12 billion like you might spend 25 quid. on a night out, right? You they they can. just do it. And what they get for this. quite apart from actually it's it's an. incredibly good financial deal is they. get to hang out with celebrities. courtside. So the LA Lakers is is like a. real magnet for celebs, right? >> They get to sit next to Jack Nicholson. and that's worth billions of dollars for.

them because they are all. you know? They just are. >> Having billions puts you like absolutely. level with like a minor actor, >> you know? That's it's or or you know a. comedian you've seen on Mock the Week, you can go Yeah. >> Yeah. You can just it it buys you into. that world. When I remember when we were. selling endol a number of times, the. multiples we were able to charge were. much higher than from a normal business. because people wanted to be involved in. show business. Uh and you could bring. celebrities into meetings and people.

could meet them and they can talk about. them at dinner parties. Sports is even. more than that because if you get the. chance to meet Cristiano Ronaldo Yeah. >> that is literally worth billions to you. and so they'll spend billions on it. The. whole thing is a cartel. Of course it. is. The whole thing is absurd. Of course. it is. The whole thing makes such. absolute sense for billionaires. But the. key is if you want to make a billion. dollars in a year, uh already have 200. billion and go and buy Lester. >> It's the best asset in entertainment.

It's the most it's the least risky and. most reliable because. >> even if they're losing, it doesn't. matter. >> cuz you know there's again there's a. reason why. >> it's all part of the story. Yeah, there's a reason why people don't buy. and that's because they know there could. be 50 more plays coming along and so. it's a riskier thing and also play down. tools. You know, if you got if you buy. the LA Lakers, you've got your star. players and they retire. Yeah. You got. the draft, you buy someone new. If. Coldplay, if they all go, that's it. That's that's the end of Cold Play. These sports things, they constantly.

regenerate like the Sugar Babes or like. Triggers Broom. It doesn't, you know, the the badge stays the same. Everything. else changes. the money stays the same, the money through the turn style stays. the same, the franchise stays the same. It is you couldn't come up with a better. business. I do think the the the real. positive of it is and let's find you. know listen billionaires will. billionaire the real positive of of it. is it's a huge bet by people on human. industry and real people and congregate. I mean a huge bet by someone who has a. massive stake in open AI sure but at.

least it is a huge bet on that and. there's lots and lots of people at the. moment betting huge amounts of money on. the fact that we're not all going to. love AI and there's there's there's room. for human creativity and human communion. and I think that's That's a positive. >> When we get on to China later, we'll. have a slightly different take on that, but uh but for now, it's a positive. >> That's not such a Jerry story. >> Yeah. Um and while everyone thinks about. investing in Port Veil, shall we go to. adverts? And then after that, we're. talking about The Rock. >> Oh, so excited.

[music]. >> This episode is brought to you by. Lloyd's Rewards. Now, a big mistake that. people make is leaving the cinema as. soon as the credits roll because there. might be a bonus scene right at the end. >> Absolutely. There might be one in the. middle of Yeah. You never know. >> In Marvel's be a mid-redit scene and. then there'll be an end credit scene. >> I remember the first one I really. remember. Well, two I remember Ferris. Buer's Day Off where where he tells you. to go home at the end, but also Smokeoky. and the Bandit with with Bert Reynolds.

where where they would do bloopers. It. just feels like a secret little glimpse. into a. >> It doesn't quite have to be over. >> Yeah. Exactly. And it's just a lovely. little added bonus. You've done. everything. You've made your show, right? You've given everyone everything. It's just a lovely little extra, >> which is also the idea behind Lloyd's. rewards. Extra value appearing inside. something you were already doing anyway, your daily banking. From shopping to. streaming, you can bank on Lloyds to. help your money go further. >> It's rewards like this that make 14. million people bank on Lloyds. Search.

Lloyd's rewards in your app. Eligibility. criteria, terms and conditions apply. Retailer offers and cashback amounts may. vary. UK residents 18 plus. [music]. Welcome back everybody. Now, as you. know, I yield to absolutely nobody in my. admiration for the rock. Uh Dwayne. Johnson, entertainment polymath, wrestler, movie star, highintensity. interval philosopher, skincare.

entrepreneur, tequila, brand ambassador, self-styled future presidential. candidate. You'll remember he claims. that in 2022 both parties in the United. States asked him to run for president. >> Yeah, I can sort of see that. I can. imagine I can imagine the mega. Republican party going. >> knocking at the door. >> Yeah, >> knocking at the door. But he has been. back at his GSD table. Remember that's. his get done table. His big wooden. table where he which contains a lot of. spirit energy mana. >> Yeah. It's like it's like a it's like um.

my auntie Jan's craft table. >> Yeah. It's just like Auntie Jan's craft. >> That's where that's where she got. done. >> Yeah. >> But that would be birthday cards and. things, but it's still getting it done. >> Yeah. I mean, he hasn't yet gone into. birthday card business, but give it time. because he's released a new music video. It's called your dad, which is just an. amazing title and we'll get to it. >> Your dad. >> Yeah. >> Your dad. >> Yeah. Well, we let me let me get onto. the context. >> As in Is it with an apostrophe like you. are? You are dad. Your dad.

>> Oh, your dad like your mom. >> It was originally called my dad, but he. asked for it to be changed to your dad. so it could be sung to his daughters. We'll get to it. >> Oh, okay. These kind of little passion projects. that are nothing to do with anything to. do with business, as you know. um the. live um action version of Moana sort of. fell off the screens recently and didn't. do very well. He's been struggling a. little at the multiplex the rock, you. know, he's a multiplex star. Anyway, he's and he's done an interview with. Rolling Stone like we all do when we do. a little like your auntie Jam probably.

does about her birthday cards after. >> Yeah. She goes, "Well, I started with. the fuzzy felt and then I thought. actually, you know, if I put pasta round. the outside of this.". >> Yeah. >> Anyway, and Rolling Stone obligingly. asked him a question about is he. considering some sort of musical. venture? and he says, "Well, I'm. exploring that now, and I appreciate you. asking that." Uh, as you rolled along in. life, I've been very real fortunate to. be part of some really cool projects, and I love it, but music has always been. such an anchor for me, and very. specifically in genres that I love, like. country music, traditional country.

music, and we're exploring that now. You. know what? With the Rock, there's always. bits you don't know about, which I love. because his backstory, his origin story, which he tells you all the time. There. are about nine origin stories for The. Rock. I can't go through all of them, but one of them is like he's a very. successful high school footballer in. Pennsylvania. Um, and then goes on to. the University of Miami. However, we're. doing a different origin story today, it. turns out, cuz he's got a turns out he's. got an incredible origin story in music. No way. Yes. He was in Nashville for a. long time when he. >> was named after a type of music.

>> Yeah. Yeah. But that's not the one he's. interested in. >> No. Well, country rock. I would call. myself country rock if I was him. >> Yes. I mean, he I think he wants to do a. country album with soul elements, but um. he's he's got an incredible origin story. in music. Only he would have this origin. story at a very early age. He says, "My. deep influences were Sam Cook, Elvis. Presley, George Jones, Mel Haggard, blah. blah." Guys like that who are just on. top of their genres. And also Willie. Willie Nelson, who as a matter of fact. gave me my first guitar. Of. >> course he did. Of course he did. You.

know the trigger guitar he has the. historic one. I guess Martin only made a. hundred of those and as a birthday gift. cuz I was a huge fan he gave me one of. those. He says I play like dog. compared to him. Oh you do you compared. to okay. >> compared to anyone else I am amazing but. Oh wow. >> Anyway that and then he says anyway. that's my musical start. Okay this is. something we don't know about the rock. but okay. Or was it? So then he's. explaining. >> No by the way that must be quite. recently. Willie Nelson didn't give like. a seven-year-old the rock and guitar,

right? That must have been when rock was. already. >> This is what but he's also got another. origin story for his musical start. because he says he was sent to Nashville. because his father was in Nashville, but. he he was supposed to live with his dad, but it didn't end up happening. >> So anyway, I wound up living with a guy. who was a stranger in a motel who's. become one of my best friends still. today cuz that's what The Rock does. He. keeps those people that came up with. real. >> His name is Downtown Bruno. We had no. money. He was broke. I was broke. He was. nice enough to let me live in his little. hotel room. So this is the actual. musical origin story. Now the rock now.

gets into it and he says, >> "I was shoplifting donuts in a super. supermarket." One is oldfashioned. American supermarket. It's called the. Piggly Wiggly where you just go up and. down the hills. >> Okay. And he says he was singing while. he was doing it. Okay. Just do people. when they're shoplifting normally sing? I feel it's like one of those drawing. attention to you things. >> Yeah. I'm not stealing anything. >> But what happens is a woman comes up. The Rock obviously thinks he's being. busted for shoplifting and. >> he's got literally literally he's got. sausage fingers with a with a donut. around each one.

>> And needless to say, she says, "Was that. you singing. >> because you know, you're obviously so. good. >> because we caught you on security. camera.". >> Anyway, flash forward to the year 2026. and The Rock is considering um this. thing. He's got this song called Your. Dad, which is written by um a guy called. I am Tongi who won American Ireland, a. Polynesian guy who won American Idol a. couple of years ago. So he doesn't even. write his own stuff. >> No. >> Okay. >> No. It was called My Dad and The Rock. says, "Can you rewrite it so I can sing. it to my tip to my daughters?". >> Even though I didn't write it. >> Now what The Rock is also saying is this.

is nothing to do with business. Which is. with The Rock. I'm like, "Okay." So he. says, "We must do the things we do must. do them for ourselves and we must feel. it in here behind our rib cage." But. they're also always connected to some. sort of commerce. He talking about the. four quadrant movies. You want to do. them well, but this is he's not even. interested whether this song does well. >> No, he wants to feel it in his lungs. There is no pressure of an expectation. to deliver here. He just wants to say he. doesn't want to have to say how are the. sales, how are the streams. It's just. from me to his daughters. He's done an. interview with Rolling Stone about it. and he's released a video.

>> What if it turns out that downtown Bruno. was Bruno Mars? >> Wouldn't that be? >> That would be amazing. >> I think age-wise there are some. nonmatchups. That would be an issue. >> Maybe there's time travel. Yeah. >> Um anyway, so he wants to do this. >> there's that would be a hell of a. sidebar. >> Oh my god. You know that will you know. there you know there's time travel. point. He will claim to have time. traveled. Okay, there there's just no. question about it. But the other thing. that's interesting me with The Rock is. we talked, remember we talked about, you. know, he's the multiplex guy as we know. and he's got he wants to be the mogul as. well because he's got this stake in um t.

in the with the wrestling um company. with um Ari Emanuel. But remember he. went he went on that Oscar run last time. round with Smashing Machine and you he's. playing Mark Carr, the MMA fighter. Um. and he made a big Oscar play and he got. he didn't get it. He got a Golden Globe. nomination which I think you know he. dined out on for a long time but he went. to can you know he cried at the thing he. had he spent 15 minutes crying he did. all he did all the things you have to do. to get an Oscar. >> and they didn't give him one.

>> and they didn't [clears throat] give him. one. >> So I thought he would retreat licking. his wounds to the multiplex. >> He's think he's thinking if you're not. going to give me an Oscar I got one word. on my mind Grammy. >> Yeah. By the way, he's not giving up on. the O because I just a a few very. recently he announced a new film. It's. called Freeird. It's about a stunt rider. who a stunt motorcyclist who is covering. up a dementia diagnosis. Oh my god. He. is not done with the O. He is not done. with the O. That is the biggest Oscar.

bay I've heard that he could do. >> By the way, I thought he was rather good. in the Smashing Machine. >> He was It was the worst Safy Brother. movie that year, but you know. Yeah, >> but he's not done with this. So, what. I'm interested. >> I'd love to see how he's going to win a. Tony. I'd love to see him in a street. car named Desire or something. >> Oh my god, he would be his that's the. first play I thought of when I thought. of a Tony. You can just very very much. love to see his Stanley Kowalsski. >> So, that's where we are. He's not given.

up on the O of the EGOT and he is maybe. going to be a country star. Wow. >> I can I just And by the way, if you're. ruling him out for a future presidential. run, you're mental because he's never. rule him out. >> No, he's Yeah, >> God. He wants the peg. >> He wants it. But he's But what a I mean, you know, I do think I've said before I. know someone who's been working with him. on Jumanji and you know, he's has only. nice things to say about him. So, you. know, there's something in there. >> Yeah. >> But, um, you know, perhaps we'll put a. link to his song somewhere on our uh on. our page here. I mean, it's kind of.

fine. He's got an unshakable self-belief. and I will always be here for it. >> Yeah, I'm not sure he's going to add to. his Grammy Hall, but who knows? >> Literally 456 people win a Grammy every. year, Richard. There's actually no. reason you shouldn't get one. >> Is that the easiest one to target of the. EGOT if we were again if we if we had a. year. >> I think is the easiest. >> Yeah, if we had a year because you can. win it for spoken word and things like. that, can't Yeah. Okay. Let's let's uh. >> let's meet back here same time, same. place next year and see which one of us. has won a Grammy. Okay,

>> that's a film. [laughter]. >> That actually is a good film. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But I think like making a billion. like by next year. I've seen that idea. so many times. But we got to meet up. this time next year. >> I would like to compete with you about. that. And one of us to compete with you. for the Grammy. >> Do you think you could get a Grammy. easier than me? >> Surely not. >> But I' I'd love I would love to beat. you. I'd love to beat you so much. >> I Yes, I do. >> Can I say something? That's myself. >> I couldn't lose either way. is either. I'd be happy if I won one or I'd be.

happy that you'd won one. And also I'd. be impressed. They don't have a podcast. category, do they? But presumably. they'll have one fairly soon. >> Oh yeah. >> Yeah. The Grammys. >> They need to last 9 and a half hours. every year. So. >> yeah. So there's a possibility if they. if they introduce like a podcast. category. We will machine tool one of. our episodes just to as an absolute. Grammy bait [laughter]. >> and see if we can win a Grammy. >> That's a great idea. >> It's a really good idea. Now, on to micro dramas. You know, we. talked about them uh a while ago.

They're these things you can watch on. your phone. They're shot vertically, 60. episodes, all about 2 minutes long. And. they've absolutely taken over the world. now. Loads and loads of people in. Hollywood are now employed in them. Lots. of actors, lots of crew and over the. world are employed in them. Every time. you talk to a writer, they say, "I'm. thinking about doing a micro drama. It's. a huge thing." So, I thought it's worth. going back to China uh and and checking. what is happening with it. And here's. one they announced last week a micro. drama. Uh it is called the the Chinling. Bronze Occult Chronicles. It's 60.

episodes. It's like a time travel thing. where uh two characters go back to the. Bronze Age. It stars Chinling Yu and. Lindy Yen. Uh and if you don't know. them, they've also just set up accounts. They've just been introduced on uh Weibo. and on Dian and Rednote. >> Dian is like their Tik Tok even though. Tik Tok is Chinese. >> Yeah, exactly. Uh the only thing about. Chin Lingua and Lin Cien is they do not. exist. They are AI actors. The whole. thing is AI. And this is becoming.

incredibly prevalent in Chinese micro. drama production. And anything, by the. way, that becomes prevalent in Chinese. micro drama production is probably going. to head our way. There's a crazy. statistic that. >> 122,000. um titles, micro drama titles were. launched in early 2026. 95% of which. were entirely AI generated using things. like sea dance which is the bite dance. um visual AI tool. A year before it was. zero. A year before every micro drama.

that was made in China was made with. real people. >> and that was over 140,000. The we think. the weirder thing cuz obviously when AI. really sort of gets going there will be. things like 128,000 cuz loads of people. just churn out absolute nonsense. The. scariest statistic is that uh of the top. 100 drama chart in January 2026 38% of. those are uh AI generated in in some. form or another. And again to just put. it in perspective, it is so massive. micro dramas in China. They took the.

equivalent of 14.5 billion last year. which is double their entire cinema box. office. Um and they are just completely. huge. >> So it's a lot and as you say that. there's there's there there's a bigger. picture here which is the race between. America and China to dominate. AI is a. huge deal and China I think understands. that you know using things like micro. drama using culture is a very very. important way of showing how advanced. their AI is and as you say bite dance. who runs sea dance they also own the. platforms they own the technology I mean.

they're sort of a one-stop shop for this. whole AI industry. >> well it's much harder to do this in the. west in they don't have the same sort of. cultural and commercial push back that. we have when you find out AI's been used. for anything at all um they just want to. be the fastest. And um I think to me. it's sort of interesting. One of the. things that I think is interesting about. the latest actors is that they're. they're not just created for one AI.

outing, you know, like let's let's make. a drama here and they want to put the. and they are putting them in in all sort. they're going to create them as. personalities and then they will have. careers effectively. They will go on, they'll star in other things. >> and they'll do adverts and you know the. beauty of it is and listen you can. >> they're posting now on social media as. sort of personalities. >> If you were just interested in the. economics then why wouldn't you? Because. that you own these people. They don't. exist. So they're not going to. renegotiate their contracts. They're not.

they're not going to take like a 2-year. sobatical, you know, they're not going. to have, you know, a substance abuse. problem. They're not going to retire. You have them forever and ever and ever. at the same age. You can or you can make. them younger or you can make them older. They will work 24 hours a day. They can. be in 60 different things, you know, across a month and then you put them. straight into something else. They can. be in movies in the in in the cinema. They can do everything. >> Just eliminate the humans, those. annoying messy humans from. entertainment. It will be so much easier.

as probably a lot of managers have. thought in their time. >> I mean, it does make sense, but you. know, as as you say, so 38% of these. dramas have some sort of uh AI. generation. Not all AI actors. >> of the top ones. That's what's so. interesting that people really like. them. >> Yeah. Uh and I think that there is a. tremendous amount of push back. This is. the good news is there's a tremendous. amount of push back amongst Chinese. consumers about having AI actors. There. is almost zero push back about having AI. sets or AI production or AI editing or.

any of that stuff. People seem in China. to be very very comfortable with that. which means the price of these things is. absolutely plummeting. I mean it whereas. the one thing just this idea as always. you know the 500 people it takes to make. a drama uh the only ones the audience is. particularly concerned about uh are the. actors are the ones who are the best. paid ones in in the first place. So so. Chinua and Lindsey Yen they are the big. issue with them that they've they. >> it is believed that they are based very.

closely on actors who are already there. who are specifically identifiable. [clears throat]. and and who have said this is nothing to. do with me. Exactly. They and they've. said oh no they're generated completely. without influence but. >> so Joy Zoo Jamai just real actors whose. you know work this is taking of you know. the makers of this is U-Hug media say I. was absolutely this just coincidental. that they they look the same but as I. say two years ago we started talking. about micro dramas when it you know it.

hadn't really reached this critical mass. and now it has and in Hollywood lots and. lots of people are throwing their weight. behind them they're throwing their money. behind them they're throwing their labor. behind them lots actors, lots of behind. the scenes people. Now, that's what. happened in China 2 years ago. An awful. lot of people from the traditional. Chinese film industry and television. industry went into this world. Almost. all of them are now out of work because. you you can the whole thing can be. edited, shot, put together on one. computer. The [snorts] last line of. defense seems to be this thing of.

actors. There is push back against it. you know 93% of the audience are saying. we do not like having AI actors uh in. our programs but how long that lasts I. don't know. >> as you say there is there is a question. as to how much this culture will travel. from China to America or to the UK and I. think as you say there is a difference. there is much more cultural push back. already in our territories than there is. in China. >> we have to acknowledge that AI is going. to just be embedded in real productions.

and and and it already is in becoming. So. >> what I Yes, I do think the thing about. China that make that makes it sort of a. particularly extreme example of it is. that. >> we know that in China entertainers, performers are often sort of effectively. culturally disappeared for perceived. transgressions against I don't know. moral codes or um free speech or some. sort of political act. This is makes it. you know you're creating sort of factory.

grown nonhumans that never do anything. that um is is deemed to be in. contravention of the aims of the state. I find it very troubling for that reason. particularly but it's interesting that. lots of their consumers do although I I. am not sure because I have to say that. 30 if if that many of the top ones are. of the top micro dramas contain are. entirely AI generated and people don't. mind. >> Yeah. I don't think the top 38 are. entirely AI generated. They are. >> not the top 38 but 38 of the top if they.

are but and people don't mind about it. I do think that people humans is the. last bit and it's very sad that lots of. below the line people. >> people don't think of them as the humans. who made the film but they are. I I. agree with you that I I don't think. people will like this um here, but I. don't I just think the micro drama space. is so weird when you look at it. I' I've. watched so many micro dramas. >> and I don't you know I do find them such.

a weird genre. There's so you know. there's people call as I've said before. people call it like Only Fans for Women. and there lots of these kind of weird. things you know I've talked about them. before like my my billionaire CEO. werewolf boss whatever. Yeah. Um I can. honestly they're so odd some of them. that I can see people not minding. nonhuman. >> I think exactly that that that's the. thing that gives me some hope cuz when. you first look at the statistic it looks. terrifying. You think oh my god the. world's about to collapse. I think micro. dramas are something very very specific. and they are perfectly attuned to AI. I.

mean they they they sort of developed. alongside AI. You know they are very. very self-contained two-minute episodes. They are very very small cast. Usually. two people who don't necessarily have to. interact in the same shot. Uh the. scripts are very formulaic. We know. exactly where we're going each time. We're going to end on a cliffhanger each. time. The visual identity of them is. very very very narrow. So if AI were. going to make anything, it would be. micro dramas. If AI was capable of. making anything, it would be that in the. same way that AI could probably write.

you a page long short story and get away. with it. It can't write a novel because. it's too there's you know after page. three it's like it's there's too much. going on. I think that this micro drama. thing, if anyone has seen these. statistics out there and and and and. thinks the whole industry is doomed, I I. think that there are lots and lots of. caveats which mean it's not going to. come over to the UK and to the US in the. same way that it is in China and it's. not going to come over to long- form. movies in the same way. Definitely, you. look at the people, you know, Ben. Affleck investing huge amounts of money.

in AI production. There is going to be. lots and lots of ways in which AI. influences the production of movies and. makes movies much much much cheaper and. cost jobs. >> It will be fully built into the whole. definitely is that if we're worried that. someone is just going to press a button. on a computer and the entirety of our. culture is going to be produced there. I. don't think that's the case. But. certainly micro dramas, it's insane that. you know AI wouldn't be making them is. it's absolutely made for AI and perhaps.

we let AI get on with micro dramas and. we can make everything else. Uh but you see lots of actors as well, you know, starting to think about. licensing their voices, licensing their. likenesses and Matthew McConnA's talked. about it, Jeff Bridges has. Um. >> celebrity digital clones is a big is a. big thing. >> is is going to be huge. So in China, you. can I don't know quite why they do this, but they just they will buy individuals. images and voices and they will make an. AI version of them for a flat fee. So. you you can sell as a non-acctor, you.

can sell your digital rights to somebody. if you I presume if you're attractive. and you know you suddenly become a movie. star. I mean it's a wild west and it's. mental and we've spoken many many times. before but I genuinely think that um you. know art is about humanity and there. will be slop everywhere across the world. and there'll be certain industries where. there's you know AI up the wazoo but you. know I think that um I think that human. beings and human storytelling remains.

>> Any recommendations? >> Yes. Um, Apple continue their amazing. run of form. I kept seeing uh the Dink. advertised to me, their sort of sports. movie about pickle ball with um Jake. Johnson from New Girl. And I was like, "Oh, okay." And you look at the um uh. you know, all the reviews and they say, "Oh, perfectly pleasant comedy." And I. should I should remember that no one can. ever review comedies properly. And if. someone says perfectly pleasant comedy, it's probably going to be brilliant. And.

the Dink is brilliant. It's so good. Jake Johnson is so brilliant. Mary Steam. version. is so brilliant. You know, I I'm a. sucker for those those sort of slightly. fake American sports movies. Ed Harris. is his awful dad. He's a former tennis. star who who who crashed out against. Andy Rodic years ago and now is like a a. pro at his local club. Uh and then. there's there's this fight between the. the pickle ball players who want more. courts and the tennis players who want. things kept traditional. It's really. really really good. Anyone who loves. comedy, Jake Johnson is brilliant in it.

I mean, he just finds it every bit of. comedy. It's like it's really really. charming. I I I loved the dink. By the. way, if you want if you uh want. something on terrestrial TV, um uh I. started watching the Grace series, the. John uh Sims thing because I I saw it. was written by Russell Lewis who did. Endeavor, which is one of my favorite. things ever. Uh and he's done a cracking. job on Grace as well, particularly if. you're from Brighton like me because. it's just full of Brighton things. But. the Dink uh and Grace I really really. enjoyed this week. You've been away so. I'm going to I'm going to exempt you. I've literally had I I've been watching.

DVDs which Yeah. Yeah. Whatever they. had. It's cool. >> Um I've redone like all of the Cohen. brothers. I mean, you know. Yeah. Can I. recommend the Cohen brothers as I. haven't heard of them, but I'm going to. look into them. >> Look them up. They they've made quite a. lot of good stuff. >> Uh thank you so much. Uh we have a Q&A. episode on Thursday. Look forward to. seeing you all there. And we have the. second episode for our members of our. definitive story of the of James Bond. and all the way from the Fleming novels.

through the cinema years. Um, if you. want to join for ad free listening and. all those bonus episodes, it's the rest. is entertainment.com. Otherwise, we'll see you on Thursday. >> See you on Thursday. [music]. >> [music].