The Rise and Fall of MrBeast

We are talking about Mr. Beast's new. book, a thriller that he's done with. James Patterson, the sort of prolific. and celebrated thriller writer, um, which is called The Most Dangerous. Games. >> And basically the the the title of that. segment is what's that all about? >> What's that all about? We're going to. talk about the new book from Julia. Donaldson and illustrated by Axel. Sheffller, Gruff Granny, which is I mean. will be an instant mega mega mega. bestseller and classic.

>> And we're going to talk about how just. how do you become the biggest selling. British author of the century? >> Well, that's something you're very. interested in, of course. Now, >> it's not me. It's not me. >> I unbeliev it's unbelievably it is not. actually you. And we're also going to. talk about friend of the podcast Nicola. Peltz appeared to receive a rising star. award at the Venice Film Festival. We're. going to be asking did she and what an. awards all about please. Can you buy an. award? >> Can you buy an award?

>> I'm not suggesting she did. I'm asking. can you buy an award? >> I just it it made me think on a. completely separate note. I wonder if. one could be. >> kick off with Mr. Beast. So the new book. is called The Most Dangerous Games. It's. a survivalist thriller. It's published. by Harper Collins. It's written with. James Patterson. >> Yeah. I mean, the plot won't surprise if. essentially this essentially if Mr. Beast came to your house and said, "In. 25 minutes, we have a meeting with. Harper Collins. What should the plot for. our book be?" It is. It is this plot. >> There's an element of Simon Cow, isn't. it? It's one idea just done a bit.

differently each time. Okay. So, the. plot is a thousand strangers get an. invitation from Mr. the beast who is a. character in this book. >> and he's seeking out people who don't. normally apply to things maybe veterans. martial arts experts and stuff and a. hundred of them are going to make the. cut for some games. Yes. They are going. to be in challenges against each other. Mr. Beast is the character running the. games. They have to go around the planet. and so on. >> Yeah. And they get knocked out one by. one. Yes. We'll get to what the prize is. because that's a particularly. interesting uh bit of business.

The rest is entertainment is presented. by Octopus Energy. Now, entertainment. loves keeping business in the family. >> Yeah, it's no secret that that's. traditionally been a an easier route. perhaps into show business. This not. necessarily the only way to get into the. business. However, there are lots and. lots of examples where it really has. worked for people. >> The Coppers stretch out beyond film into. music. Nicholas Cage though changed his. surname from Coppa. He's Francis Phil. Coppler's nephew and he changed his. surname just so that he could, you know,

just be Nicholas Cage. >> But one assumes that in LA they did know. that he was a copa. >> He stands alone for me. >> I also think Stennis Glasgard is an. interesting one because lots of his. children became very very famous and he. always calls himself a nepo dad because. as his children got more and more. famous, people started coming to him. more for for roles. That's that's a nice. way around. >> So entertainment has some remarkable. family machinery, but however useful the. surname isn't always the only way in. >> No. Octopus Energy, for example, didn't. inherit its place in the energy. industry. It's proudly independent, and.

one way it does things differently is. having each customer's account looked. after by the same small team of around. 10 energy specialists. They know exactly. who you are. What do I think about it? I. think it's good that Mr. Beast is. writing a book. I think it's good that. Mr. Beast is sending people in the. direction. I s I read a great review, I. think, in Slate. It wasn't a great. review of the book. It wasn't, but it's. this is this is a bad book. But when I. was a teenager, I read a lot of bad. books and they led me on to reading good. books. >> The way that they he announced it, I.

found massively irksome, which was like, I found books boring when I was a child, but you know, don't worry, here I am to. effectively save books with my, you. know, they he he and James Patterson, I. think, who's just saying whatever Mr. Beast needs to say to get this book out. there. >> Well, James Patterson is he can't. believe he's like, um, yeah, I mean, he's not going to say no to Mr. Beast. The other people he's written books with. are Bill Clinton and Dolly Parton. I. mean he he you know he does about. >> he's collabed in page pageionated form. >> Yeah. He doesn't just Yeah. He's he's.

not writing with Sue Pollard. >> He's not writing if you're listening. >> He's not but she did such a great turn. for us. I the turn the rest is first. absolutely amazing Sue Pollard. So they. say they want um adults and children who. don't normally read to read you know. this 480 page thing. And it's it debuted. at number three on the New York Times. bestseller list. I would like to come. back to that if I may put a marker down. >> And it debuted at number 47 in the UK. charts.

>> with uh I think 3,370 copies across the. first two weeks. Now. >> once again, you have the receipts. >> I have the receipts. We're going to talk. about we're going to talk a lot more. about it, but I will say this. There's. this truism that seems to have crept. into publishing that if you go into a. publisher, they will say to you, uh, how. many followers have you got on social. media? And if you don't. single agent I've ever heard say there's. not a single editor if you do have a. huge social media uh following they will. use it that's for sure but they're not.

interested in it. >> This book. this book this guy has more social media. followers than pretty much anyone else. in the world. He has. >> he has 515 million YouTube subscribers. It's essentially one in 15 people on the. planet supposedly. >> follow this guy to his YouTube. subscribe. I mean it's an insane amount. of people. Not only that, >> but you always thinking, you know, is. there a little competition that we can. run to sort of, you know, send people to. bookshops? Can can we sort of do a.

weekend away or something, you know, or. a cream tea in a cathedral uh that you. can win if you do this? If you read this. book, Mr. beast is going to give one person. who reads the book and follows a series. of clues $1 million. He's got half a billion followers. He's. going to give someone a million pound if. they read this book and he sells 3,300. copies in the UK. And that, by the way, is no shade on him whatsoever because I. say I'm glad that he's written a book.

I'm glad that people are buying it and. reading it. But anyone who still thinks. you have to have a social media. following or it helps to sell books in. the fiction sphere, you are incorrect. James Patterson, by the way, has had 67. New York Times number one bestsellers. So, this is uh he's teamed up with the. biggest social media star in the world. and not had his 68th New York Times. number one bestseller, you know. And. again, it's in the top 10 of the US. today USA Today list, but it's it's it's. you should be in your first week with.

some publicity and with a name like. James Patterson should be number one. Yeah. >> And certainly when you team up with Mr. Beast as well, they would have been. expecting they would really have been. expecting to be number one for. absolutely certain. You can never tell. with with New York Times things, but. they they they will not be delighted. with that. And certainly they won't be. delighted with the um performance in the. UK, which is which is very low. >> That's very interesting, isn't it? cuz I. I thought I really thought it would go. higher than that on the New York Times. Number three is not great. I mean, it.

sounds good. >> It sounds good. We solve murders. Your. last book was obviously number one on. the New York Times best. >> and so are plenty, you know, it's it's. three. Three is not three is not great. They they've even started saying and. also it's number one on mystery and. thriller hot new releases on Amazon, which I mean that's like. >> you can't mention those. >> Refuge of the uh of the scoundrel, all. that. That's when you know you're in. trouble. Can I just get a little bit. more into the weeds of how the. competition bit works? I think it's like. you So, you have to buy the book, you. save the receipt,

>> you register it online, and then you. have to do weekly elimination challenges. online, and you have to work out clues. that are in the novel's text, sort of. Easter egg type things, I guess. And. then the top players face off and one of. them is going to win a million dollars. because even books can apparently be. gamified but not as we say not. particularly successfully. But that I. suppose what he's trying to do because I. mean what he's always trying to do is.

make everything a kind of situp and. non-passive experience. I suppose it's. interesting talking about sort of what. was in it for James Patterson. They are. both basically content creators in some. ways. If you can call an author one, he. is one. >> Yeah. So, so James Patterson since he he. wrote his first he was an advertising. executive. James Patterson, I've got a. lot of time for James Patterson. Yes. I. have to say his first book. >> It's not for me, but I can see what it. is. I like I like the way he's he's run. his career. His first book was the. Thomas Bryman number. That was 1976. So,

he's 50 years in the business. He has. over that time written 416 books. So, that's almost 80 years. So 50 years he's. done that. Started as just any regular. writer, thriller writer, the Alex Cross. series, V various other things like that. and then very quickly got into this idea. of franchising himself out. Yeah. >> And so he writes a huge amount of books. with other people. Um the ladies. detective agency books. There's all lots. lots of books that he he does these. series with with other writers. I read. that he does the outline and then he.

often someone he used to be in. advertising with then takes that and. starts like writing the book which comes. in sort of maybe 30 or 40 page chunks. He either. >> kind of totally rewrites those or just. gives in some notes and then they do it. again. But it's that sort of process. that's happening all the time with as. you say. >> a series of different writers and. obviously the longer he works with. people the less he has to do with. things. Now the one thing I would say. about it is firstly it's interesting as.

a business proposition. Secondly he. credits all of his coowwriters. So it's. not like he's he's not being. ghostritten. He writes these things with. a certain person. Um, I spoke to one of. his coowwriters this week, who I won't. name, and they said he is a wonderful to. work with, b gives you all the credit. you deserve, and c pays really, really. well. >> And you think, well, listen, with all. with all of those things, you'll take. it, right? If you team up with James. Patterson, you'll do good business. People know who you are, people in the. industry will know that you've done it. The public will know that you've done. it, and you'll be well paid for it. So,

I think, look, it's it's an unusual. business model to write 416 books in 50. years, but at least he's doing it in the. right way. So I I have some time for. James Patterson. As I say, he's done a. couple of books with Clinton, did a book. with um Dolly Parton. So Mr. Beast comes. along uh and says to him, uh I mean it. does rather beg the question of the two. names on the cover. Did either of them. write it? >> Yeah. And also that thing about like. I've got a meeting in 15 minutes and. what should I do? Yeah. >> I think what happened is that James.

Patterson went, you know, Mr. Beast. works out of Greenville in North. Carolina. James Patterson went, Mr. to. be sort of gave him a 2-hour tour of, you know, the facility. I do really now. start to think of it as a sort of bond. lair now, that facility and, you know, all the different things they're doing, many of which are various forms of. survivalist challenge. And then by the. end of it, they're like, "Oh, we should. just do a book that's a sort of. survivalist challenge." So, you don't. actually even need the 15 minutes before. the meeting to work out what the book is. going to be. >> I mean, there's absolutely no way James. Patterson would have approved of.

starting with a thousand, then. immediately going to 100. That doesn't. make any sense. Start with 100. But um. listen, that's absolutely fine. There is. at the beginning of the book, I've. skimmed it. >> I will say that you get the idea of it. There there is a dramatist persona at. the beginning of this telling you who. the characters are. Uh including Mr. Beast. So it tells you who um Mr. Beast. is. So he's a character in his own book. >> What's his character name? >> Which he wrote? This is his character. name. Uh Mr. Beast, according to Mr. Beast, >> is sharp, fair-minded, and deeply loyal.

But he tells that I mean again the first. rule of writing is show don't tell. But. yeah, literally on on the first page he. tells us who he is and and and you know. at various points in the book he's you. know saving ex-Marines and stuff in very. but I listen if if I was a character in. the book I'd be doing the same. >> Yeah. I mean you do it in your private. life but don't like to talk about it. >> I don't like to talk about it. Exactly. >> Okay. The things I find quite. interesting about it there has been. although they've told you there is. ongoing a huge bidding war for the film. and TV rights. That interested me.

because I'm like if it's. >> it would have sold a long time ago. >> I agree it and also who keeps wanting to. bid for these Mr. Be shows where they. are so expensive. I don't know what. Amazon paid um 100 million or whatever. it was for Beast Games, didn't they? Yeah, I mean they are so expensive they. don't make him any. idea sorry it is a ripoff of Squid Game. anyway which itself battle royale. >> he says he you know what he's what book. he says it's based on.

>> what. >> the Odyssey. >> of course. >> cuz he says it's a character on a. journey going through different. challenges you think yeah I suppose so I. suppose it is. >> no the Odyssey is about American dads. who cry in their cars on the way home. I've told you. >> okay well you you and Mr. beast disagree. on that. If we if he comes on a Q&A. episode, we'll have a what's the Odyssey. about discussion. >> So, God, I mean, yeah. Um, so it's, as I. say, I hope they have nailed down their. rights deal because I think that if it. performs like that on the book charts,

it's perhaps not worth as much as they. they thought it was before. >> Yeah, it's a tricky story because I do I. I like every aspect of it. I like the. fact that Mr. Beast, who can do a. million different things, has decided to. do a book. I like that. I don't know how. much work he's put into it. It might. just be one of those things someone. says, "Would you like to do a book?". Yeah, sure. I like the fact that James. Patterson has done it. I like James. Patterson. You know, I like the fact. that maybe I'll send people into book. shops who wouldn't ordinarily go into. bookshops. It doesn't massively look. like it is. But I, you know, I I do like.

all of those things about it. >> I think it's lame, but anyway. >> Yeah. But something can be lame and also. um, you know, admirable. >> I don't I don't find it admirable. I I I. think in another to widen it out to sort. of what's happening to him at the. moment. I think there are I think it's. quite interesting what's happened to him. because he's as we know if you have. followed the show before you know he is. the biggest thing really on YouTube or. was the biggest thing and it's quite. interesting what's happened to him. He. doesn't really he spends so much money.

on all of those challenges his weekly. videos and most of which are making. people sort of endure things in one way. or another. He has he has big hook ideas. that. >> very big hook ideas and they and they're. hugely popular. But we talked funny. enough when we talked about the BBC, we. talked a little bit about the sort of. pointlessness of trying to sort of beat. YouTube even though YouTube gave him. huge amounts of money because he was. their kind of almost effectively the. nonofficial face of YouTube for quite a. long time. There was something that came.

out earlier this year where people were. like, "Oh my god, like his video counts. of another creator said his viewership's. basically 50% down." Um, and as we. always say about YouTube, you know, they. own the platform. They make sure they. win. And people are saying, "Oh, look, smaller creators are being boosted. They're trying to boost many, many. rather than having these, you know, behemoths that no one can really. anywhere come close." they are. prioritizing smaller creators and you. know they can change the rules any time. and it's it is clear although Mr. to be.

said, "No, no, no. Everything's, you. know, tractor production is up." To make. it sound a bit Soviet, I I have to say. that it is clear that there has been. something that has happened to the. algorithm that has kind of tried to. surface more to more people, and it has. to be at the expense of some of these. bigger ones. Either way, he sort of. loses money effectively on YouTube. He. makes the platform's biggest star, which. says something about YouTube, makes more. on snacks. Yeah. He has his Feastables.

line which is hugely popular. So I mean I suppose he sort of raises. those questions about YouTube. Is it a. customer acquisition engine that. ultimately owns the platform and makes. them all the money for itself or is it. your ultimate revenue stream? And if the. biggest creator effectively makes more. money on other stuff and spends a huge. amount of money to do what he does in. the platform, then we might say it's a. customer acquisition engine. >> But this is the thing I admire most. about Mr. Beast. I have to say he worked. out very very early on that those videos.

were a loss leader. He got it, you know, it's very easy to go on YouTube, understand that you're getting, you. know, paid X pound per view, X pound per. ad, and think, okay, I'll try and build, you know, a business off that. He worked. up very very early on that I want to. build a profile off that and I then want. to leverage that profile into selling. things. Now, listen, you you might not. love that as an idea, but that's. capitalism and, you know, he's done it. very very well. He understands that, you. know, algorithm aside, there comes a. point where your popularity slips. doesn't doesn't matter who you are, you. peak and then you go you you manage.

decline from there on in. That's almost. all careers is is that uh and you have. to before that happens own something. >> Well, I he had his glow up and it's been. beyond phenomenal. >> Can he enter his imperial phase? That's. the bit that's quite interesting for me. now. He wants to create an empire. He as. he's got this base. He's now got a. professional CEO into because who is. trying to impose some kind of financial. discipline cuz they kind of just spent.

any old, you know, any old money. They. were just like Lamborghini Lamborghinis. lying around the place. Not particularly. for them for the and for his kind of. team of posy. But also just to give away. to people just just there was no sort of. discipline particularly. It's very. childlike. I mean the ideas are all very. very childlike in a kind of fascinating. way really psychologically. I mean it's. sort of psychologically fascinating and. what I think is interesting at this. point in any business person or.

obsessive creator he and he is an. obsessive creator. I mean like he slept. there as we know he spent five years. studying like the thumbnail on YouTube. He is obsessed of every single way of. trying to kind of win against the. algorithm. >> But it's interesting with anything like. this. Are you your business's only real. asset? this is how you enter your. because you know we know he wants to. sell consumer goods. He's got a finance. app. He wants to do toys. Obviously he. wants to do streaming service. There's.

lots of things we know he wants to do. But it's whether the revenues are sort. of sufficiently predictable and you can. separate and they are legally separable. and even kind of conceptually separable. from the creator so that you can become. something that's akin to like an. institutional asset class and I wonder. you've seen lots of people you know you. look at Alex Cooper with her on well. network is is Alex Cooper the thing that. really people want or do they think that.

you can just actually sort of roll it. out and she can kind point at a few. things and all the other people she can. bring up and then she can create an. empire and there are lots of these. people who are that I almost I mean I. don't know if we can call them first. generation creators but then they're. everyone understands what we mean by. these people now these huge big people. like Alex Cooper like Mr. be like. whatever they are all having some kind. of troubles trying to separate. you know trying not to be the only asset. in their business. If I look back to you.

know Endermal which grew so absolutely. enormous off the back of Big Brother. So. in some ways at that point that was a. one product business or certainly was. massively reliant on that and you're. very very aware at that point with big. brother that how long does this go on. for? I mean it turns out it's still on. now but is certainly not where it was. So. >> by the way we're going to do a really. cool bonus series on Big Brother. >> Yes I know. With uh yes with some very. interesting. >> with some very cool views. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um and so at that stage you. think okay you have to diversify right.

and we diversify you come up with new. shows deal no deal was huge various. other shows were super big so that's. what you have to do um they then got a. point in that cycle where to grow. they'll do what Alex Cooper does and. what Mr. beast will do. You just buy. other people. You just buy other people. who would who are doing that stuff. And. I hate it. I think it's cheating. >> That's what Meta did. That's what. Zuckerberg did. He just bought all the. small. >> Yeah. As soon as. >> you've had your ideas and then you. >> as soon as you've got a billion is the. world of business is easy because as. soon as someone comes along who's better. than you, you buy them cuz they're.

better than you but they're smaller than. you and everyone wants 200 million pound. in their bank account. So you buy them. And that's what Mr. Beast would do. You. know, it's he's got a lot of money. He's. got these brands. There there will be a. generation who eat feastables who will. not have heard of Mr. Beast, who don't. understand that Mr. Beast was a real. person. They go like Colonel Sanders was. a real person, right? But at the moment, it doesn't feel like Colonel Sanders was. a real person, but we know KFC. There'll. come a point in 20 years time when. people go, "Oh, the Mr. Beast character. What was that? Who who came up with. that?" And they go, "Oh, no, that was a.

that was a real person.". >> But okay, that's really interesting. I. do agree with that. But I also think. there's something about him. psychologically whether he can do that. because actually for all that lots of. people denigrate him or what he for for. his own brand and his own distinct thing. of what he does he has been an obsessive. controller and he's tried to be sort of. across absolutely everything and we know. that people get into problems when they. try to do that. If you cannot like you. know sometimes founders say that they. have to just step aside from things. because they can't they they just.

they're either all in or they just it. stresses them more to have stuff going. on that they're not fully controlling. >> Yeah. Well, we have a clue to what his. inner feelings are about his career and. about where he wants to go and because. he's never really opened up about that. But in the book, the Mr. Beast character. opens up about it and obviously it's. written by Mr. I mean, you know, it's. written by Mr. Beast. So in the book. it's it's fascinating. The the the. competition these 100 people uh I don't.

think this would work in the real world. The prize is the winner gets a billion. dollars to do something that will help. save humanity. I mean quite why fighting. and killing each other is is is the. right way to find that. I don't know. But it's it's to give someone a billion. dollars to uh to save humanity. And Mr. beast at some point talks about the. responsibility of having that sort of. money and having that sort of profile uh. and trying to do good in the world and. talking about what money can do and how. money can save humanity. He doesn't do.

it in an Elon Musk way. I'll say that he. does it in a slightly more interesting. way. Maybe a naive way, but naivity is. not the worst uh flaw in anybody. But he. does seem to have some view that an. individual can change the world for the. better and and an an individual can use. their money to change world. Is that what you're saying? >> I do you know what I don't think I don't. think I think politics would be beneath. him. >> That's what I think. I think that. >> that's where we are now. >> I think he'd rather turn into a dolly.

>> Yeah. >> Do interesting things with uh with with. his money. it. >> he sort of is in some ways, you know, not to he it is and a lot of people say. it's like, you know, kind of the. gamification of poverty and he's done. all sorts of he because he has the. charitable sort of stream of Mr. Beast. philanthropy where he's constantly doing. these things like can we build a 100. wells in however many days. >> I mean, he's building wells. >> Yeah. And listen, there's. >> we've always said that there's plenty of. people who aren't. >> There's Yeah. And there's an element of, well, he would do that, wouldn't he? But.

he doesn't have to. There's plenty of. billionaires. >> and as I said the guilded age, you know, Carnegie, all these sort of people, they. were often terrible, terrible people, but they did build. >> extraordinary things and railroads and. all sorts of things. >> Yeah. So, if. >> and libraries. >> Yeah. If you have a child who would like. to read this book, I I would say. absolutely get them to go into a. bookshop, go to the library, pick it up. Mr. Beast suggests, by the way, uh on. one of his many videos with James. Patterson that you buy two books, one. for a parent, one for a child, so you. can talk about it over the dinner table, which listen is an interesting marketing.

technique. Um but you don't have to do. that. Um he said, sorry, my favorite bit. in those videos, and listen, it's it's a. slip of the tongue, but he says, and of. course you can buy it online or go. wherever you buy books. >> I know what he means is wherever you buy. your books. Yeah, but it sounded like or. wherever you buy books. This is not a. thing he's thought of before. Listen, it's a it's it's a book. Uh I'm glad I'm. glad you I'm glad you. >> Please let that be the cover line. Please let that be the blur for the.

paperback. >> I love James Patterson. >> It's a book dash Richard. I want that so. much. >> James Patterson doesn't have an agent, which I always think is quite impressive. as well. He's got um a lawyer. But uh. the final word, I think it's 300 3,370. copies as you say in the US. Hasn't. hasn't pulled up trees either. Um, but. it is three places below in the charts. The um K-pop sticker dolly dressing. book. >> Oh. >> Which has been out about two months. already. So, it's still out still out. selling. Um, the most dangerous games. Is that what it's even called? The most.

dangerous games. Yeah. >> Doesn't even really flow. The most. dangerous games. >> Yeah. I It should It should always be in. the singular in a title, shouldn't it? Like the most dangerous game. >> I think there is a short story called. The Most Dangerous Game, but you can, you know, >> that doesn't matter. >> Yeah. But it's it's uh listen, it's a. phenomenon. >> It's a phenomenal phenomenal one. >> Anyone out there, >> it's not burning too brightly. >> Knowing our listeners, there will be. someone who fits this. Anyone out there. who has an ironic book club? >> Hi. Can and also just hit me up because. I'll be there.

>> Yeah. An ironic book club reading of uh. the u of the most dangerous games. Mr. Beast and James Patterson. I can't I'm. looking forward to talking about Julia. Donald. >> After the break, we will be talking. about Gruff Granny. >> Yeah. First, we'll be talking about. Nicola Peltz, but then we'll be talking. about Julia Donald, >> the palette cleanser of Nicola Peltz. Hang on one second before we go to a. break. This week is the final episode of. this tranch of our Bond story. We're. doing a huge. >> Sean Connory years. >> For Shan Connory years, it all goes. wrong for Shan Connory. >> No spoilers. >> No spoilers. It happens in Japan, but no.

spoilers. But that is for our members. So, if you want to join, it's the rest. is entertainment.com for ad free. listening and all these bonus things. Otherwise, should we go to a break? >> Yeah. This episode is brought to you by. Lloyds. Now, show business loves a club. >> I love all these sort of unofficial. groupings of people. There's two brat. packs that I'm a big fan of. >> There are two brat packs. >> Yeah, there's two brat packs because. there's the movie brat pack. All of the.

Jud Nelson and, you know, Rob Low and. Charlie Sheen and all those guys. >> Everyone in the Breakfast Club. >> Yeah. And then there's also the brat. pack of those kind of turn of the '9s. novelists Brett Senellis, Jay Mcernney, Donna Tart. >> And that's the thing creatively it's. actually very very useful to hang out. with other people who are incredibly. talented because you drive each other on. to do things cuz a lot of the British. novelists in the 80s Martin Julian. Barnes Ian Mchuan they all used to sort. of go and have lunch and go and have. dinner and you could just tell you know. they would talk about stuff and they. would make each other's work much better.

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Welcome back everybody. Lovely to have. you here. Nicola Peltz Marina, tell me. more. >> Yes. Um, it's just been the Venice Film. Festival among various other part of the. sort of festival season this time of. year. Now, Nicola Peltz, friend of the. podcast, uh, wife of Brooklyn Beckham, um, and daughter of billionaire activist. investor Nelson Peltz. Relevant perhaps.

Isn't it funny when people because. normally when you say the word activist, you think of, you know, someone up in a. tree stopping a bypass. Uh but as soon. as you put investor on on the front of. you, oh okay, >> this is a guy who just likes to screw. companies. >> You think nuclear bunker. >> Yeah. This is a guy who goes from. treehouse to nuclear bunker. >> Make trouble at your company. Um anyway, so Nicola Peltz appeared to win the. rising star award at Venice. Now for. >> Well, well, let's get to that. Can I. immediately clarify? She actually won.

the Rising Star Award in Venice in the. city, but at a festival that takes place. at the same time as the Venice Film. Festival, but is not in fact the Venice. Film Festival or indeed affiliated with. it in any way. It's called Ko. Um, and. it has no official ties, but if you saw. this thing, if you saw the pictures of. it, there's a big big red carpet. She's. in a big old dress. There's Brooklyn, you know, it looks for all the world as. though it's part of the big Fisers Film. Festival, which is, you know, one of the. huge sort of it's that and can really,

which um although, as we've said before. on the podcast that people are getting. scared of taking their films, the big. studios to those. So again, crucially, this was not the Venice Film Festival. It's just a film festival in Venice. Happens to happen at the same time as. the Venice Film Festival. >> So it's like saying my band is playing. at Wembley, but it's not the stadium. It's a pub. >> Yeah. So Kuo said um she's attracted. increasing international attention. through her work as an actress, screenwriter, and producer. >> Oh yeah, >> we talk about little else, do we? >> We Yeah. Um she's also 31, which is dare.

I say not the age of a of a in fact she. first won a rising star award at Cinema. Con, which is a sort of nothing sort of. thing in 2014. >> Wow. What does the con stand for? >> She's she's been acting a long time. Um, now her next film, and this is sort of. relevant, um, by the way, um, is it's. called Prima. It's about a ballerina. She's in it. Um, it's Fay Dunaway is. also in it. Wow. >> Again, it's been written by Nicola.

Peltz. >> Wow. >> Um, directed by others, but funded by. >> Well, I can't imagine. No one knows who. it's funded by. She's got some kind of. production startup, Bunny Films, which I. think we can assume could be traced. financially back to her father. She did. one other film which she I think even. directed, wrote, directed and starred in. um called Lola in which she played a. sort of impoverished stripper which I. think we couldn't all live without the. daughters of billionaires doing but. >> they should bid for their film rights. for the most dangerous games. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think Marriage made in.

heaven. >> Yes. Um but I think projects in which. Nicola is center stage are the only. things that they bid for any. >> She could play Mr. Beast. >> Okay. She's um Yeah, there is a deadness. in the eyes that's similar perhaps. She's been acting for almost two. decades. So I suppose the question is. what has happened here? >> There is no short list for this award. disclosed. Um we are going to broaden. this to a discussion a wider discussion. in a minute about awards and how much. one has to essentially pay to play. No.

short list has been disclosed. No vote. tally. We don't even know the process by. which the rising star award at a. festival in Venice but not Venice. happens. access to the transcript of the. jury. >> No. So, it's in a way it's more of a. question about how these satellite film. festivals work and who funds the film. festivals themselves. um and what sort of PR draw is needed. for them to continue to exist as kind of. going concerns.

What's interesting about this award, I. mean, you can hear how careful I'm. having to be when I'm talking about it, but it's not tied to a specific. performance. However, at the same. festival, Fay Dunaway, who I recently. mentioned as starring in this upcoming. Nicola Peltz film, she got a lifetime. achievement award. So, the rising star. was given to Nicola and Fay Dunaway got. the lifetime achievement award. I I. don't know quite how to put this. It is. certainly helpful marketing for a film. that has yet to be released. So, I. thought that was quite interesting. you.

know, everyone to sort of clutch their. hankies to their noses is a sort of. ridiculous because so many awards across. entertainment are effectively paytoplay. Yeah, you often see um very small movies. which suddenly have these posters which. have like 15 laurels on them all inside. say you know silver winner. >> XXX film festival which essentially is a. is an everyone gets medals type. situation right. >> absolutely and these festivals want to.

continue to exist and they have to be. funded in one way or another but if we. look at sort of general for your. consideration campaigns by the time you. listen to this podcast, the Emmys will. have happened or will be just happening, you know, tailing off. >> You don't know when I'm going to listen. to this podcast. >> Um, and Emmy campaigns can easily cost a. million dollars for a show. Easily, easily. Um, but you're and and in that. you're including like trade ads and.

billboards, um, events, PR screenings, full-time campaign staff. The combined. total of what they think people spend on. the Emmy campaigns is maybe hundred. million. Maybe it's even last time they. looked in about six years ago. I mean, maybe it's closer to two now because. there's so many different and so many of. the big streamers who are kind of. effectively tech companies have huge. amounts of money to spare and want those. things. Um, and you know, no offense, Apple have got lots of great shows, amazing shows, but um, >> but it helps to have the cache is very.

important for television shows. They. really care about that. And for fil. remember, they all have films now that. they also they release one way or. another, even if it's only for a week. into theaters. So, they're eligible for. these things and then put them onto. their services. So, Oscar campaigns, >> you're really in the big leagues. It is. tens of millions to push a movie. And. sometimes people, you know, if you were. Apple or Amazon or whatever and you had. a film that you wanted to be pushed for. um awards, you could they think people. have spent over 60 for a significant.

push for one of them. >> Over 60. >> million over 60 million for for one. film. But you know, if you're a phone. company, you're a you're the everything. corporation. You want awards. Now what. they spend it on for the Oscars and you. know how long those campaigns go on, they go on for absolutely months. um. depending on when your film comes out. >> Started out really, hasn't it? >> Yeah. Well, it starts maybe it starts at. Can and maybe it starts at Venice in the. old days because you'd put your big. films there and then you'd essentially.

get your talent out there campaigning. for months. >> I saw I play Rocky um. the Toronto Film Festival I think. yesterday maybe or think at the weekend. and people are already going oh this. feels like. >> I cannot wait till November for us here. I was looking. Yeah, that's not until. November. But and a good example of this. like how what you do if you haven't got. 50 million to throw on your film. So. Andrea Risebr, you'll remember this. story. There was a film called To. Leslie. I mean it is a brilliant. performance. If you want to see movies.

about alcoholics that are brilliant. performances, I can tell you people. don't particularly, which is why it took. $400,000 at the box office. But it it is. a brilliant performance. Um but no one. watched this film and it didn't cost you. know it probably cost about a million. dollars to make but because the film. company who spends a million dollars in. the film does not have anything cannot. possibly compete with the studios in. this way. Um the there was a sort of. celebritybacked campaign for Andrea. Ryber to get a best actress nomination. which was organized by the director and.

his wife who are very well connected in. Hollywood and they did hire some. publicists and lots of people lots of. kind of bigname celebrities say Gwyneth. Poutro or someone like that said oh my. god this performance is so brilliant. stuck it on their Instagram. >> and there was a really big scandal about. that she did get a nomination in the end. Andrew the academy didn't find her. guilty of any they did have a whole big. inquiry into this was ridiculous. She. was not found guilty of anything and. they didn't resend her nomination. But. it was quite unpleasant. The backlash. against it was so unpleasant when really.

all it is was that some screeners were. sent out. >> to people in the entertainment community. and if they liked it, they said, "Wow, this is amazing and she's a brilliant. actress." So I I it was a kind of. ridiculous scandal. >> Yeah. I think this I think it was a. supposed scandal which actually. reflected the real scandal, >> you know, cuz you're not supposed to. lobby directly and it's like have they. broken rules? It's like please, if. anyone is spending $60 million, >> it's I for me it's so much worse to do. that than it is. >> I always thought that scandal was the. other way around. When Andrea Risb got.

nominated, the fury that someone who. hadn't played the game had got. nominated, the money, the industry, the. money they're paying. You look at look. at the Emmys. There are certain shows. every year go, "Oh my god, it's got 70. nominations. It's got 60 nominations. year after year after year." And nothing. surprising ever manages to get through. the door because. >> I didn't care less that we were that we. were doing it the morning after that we. were doing our podcast effectively. recording it the day before the night. the night of the Emmys because you're. never going to talk about it. It's just. it couldn't. >> that's one of the most interesting. things is that you don't really want to.

discuss it cuz it's it's just. >> it's just feels like something that's. been long decided just playing out. >> Yeah. And what you because what you want. in say an Oscar is Andrew Riser does. this performance in a film that people. didn't really go and see but because the. Academy is made up of filmmakers they. have noticed this enough of them. understand the quality of that. performance that she gets nominated. That's not what happens. What happens is. you know they get sent to screeners they. get see huge billboards all over town. >> months of it breakfast that somebody. breaks through that does it in a. different way and gets through. They.

were they were so angry because they had. wasted so much money. >> Yeah. So let's conclude this item by. saying in a very generalized terms it is. a racket one way or the other. I really. have to say I mean it is a racket all. this awards business one way or the. other. Yeah, norm normally in any. industry you have to pay for a table, you have to pay to be there. You know, they they they make a lot of money and. listen wateries are fun. They're fun to. watch and this that the other. They're. very political, but uh for lots of the.

smaller ones, you are paying an awful. lot of money for the privilege of, you. know, having a table and being nominated. or, you know, whatever it is. It's a. it's Yeah, it's a it's a it's a. money-making thing. It's pay to play. >> Yeah. So, that let's conclude that item. tactfully there. >> Yes. And. >> but I look forward to seeing if Nicola. is up for an Oscar anytime soon because. that would prove that this um um. slightly off-brand Venice jury was. right. >> Or it would just prove that some more.

money had been spent further down the. line. >> Well, I see. I don't have that cynicism. I believe in artistry. >> Now to happier and heartier affair. Uh a. celebration of the wonderful Julia. Donaldson. So Gruff Granny is out this. week. It's a follow-up to the Gruff. books. It's going to be an absolute. enormous seller. I mean, like beyond. huge. I believe I believe you bought it. >> I bought a copy at the weekend. It's. it's extraordinary. And we'll get on to. why I think it's extraordinary later.

>> Now, Julia Donaldson is is the. bestselling British author of the. century. She has sold over 50 million. books. Um, she's much beloved by. generation after generation of children. So I just wanted to look into how you. become the bestselling author. >> Yes. >> Of the century because it's it's it's an. interesting story. So Julia Donaldson. who is the most wonderful woman. I mean. she's she's uh incredible. She was at. university in Bristol in the late60s.

studied drama and French. Uh her and a. friend went to Paris for a year, started. busking on the streets of Paris. She's. always been a songwriter. That's the. thing that Julia Donson loves to do. Um. while at Bristol she meets a man called. Malcolm Donaldson who will be another. hero of this story and um they start. playing songs together and this that or. the other. A former after university. former theater troop they tour plays. around council estates and she started. writing things where.

people who came to the members of the. audience could have roles in them. she. started to understand what it is that. kids liked and tried to get them. involved in stuff. So very. participatory. So she's writing songs. She's very very interested in the. imagination of children. You see where. all this is going. You see the the the. foundations you have to lay a very very. very long time uh before anything else. happens. Um started busking around. Europe with Malcolm uh with their. guitars. They got married in London. She.

uh she composed an opereta for their. wedding uh which she and the other. guests all performed including by the. way this is a a real niche sidebar for. for fans of I'm sorry I haven't a clue. Um uh Colin Cell who plays the piano on. that. He was Malcolm's roommate at. university and and a very good friend of. Julia Donaldson. >> Um they moved to Brighton. Her husband. is a pediatrician Malcolm. So he's um. always moving around and start playing. in the local folk scene. Okay. So. that's, you know, writing folk songs,

this that or the other. And someone. suggested that uh she start sending. songs to children's BBC. So this is like. the 80s. So they've been touring around. um you know, she's been doing these. plays and all sorts of things. So she. starts writing songs for Playaway and. Play Store. If you sorry if you were a. child of the 80s like me, Playaway is. amaz Well actually it was kind it's yeah. it's like the turn of the 70s to 80s but. it is absolutely it was absolutely. brilliant. I loved play.

>> and so at some point by the way at this. point in the 80s Fuela Benjamin would. have sung one of uh one of Julia. Donaldson's songs. Who would have known? >> It's too iconic. It's too iconic. >> Absolutely too iconic. Um becomes an. English teacher uh because the the the. writing work is drying up. The song work. is drying up. you know those those shows. are not uh those those shows are not. showing anymore. Um and always in the. teaching she was writing songs and plays. and getting kids to be in them. Right? So she's this extraordinary woman. We.

know exactly the type of person we're. talking about. Someone who actually. cares, someone who's incredibly. creative, someone who loves. collaborating and someone who really. really cares about what it is they're. doing. Uh, and in 1991, uh, Matthew and. the publisher, say, "You wrote a song in. 1975 for Playboard, uh, and it was. called A Squash and a Squeeze." And. she's like, "Yeah, I suppose." So they. say, "Well, we'd like to turn it into a. picture book.". >> And she's like, "Ah, okay. So, this is. 1991, by the way. This is not like 1978.

or something. This is 16 years after. she'd written this song that she'd long. forgotten about." And Matthew say, "Could we turn that into a book?" And. she says, "Well, I Yeah. I I suppose so. He said, "But I can't, you know, I don't. have would someone do the drawings?" And. they say, "Oh, we got this young guy. from Hamburg called Axel Sheffller. He. can do the drawing for you." Uh, and. she's like, "Well, okay." So, they. publish uh Squash and Squeeze doesn't do. enormous business, but it makes her. think, I've been doing these plays for. years. I've been writing these songs for. years. I wonder if there's other ones.

that could be turned into books. And so, she starts doing lots of things for kind. of, you know, educational uh uh. publishers and this the other. So she. does that throughout the uh uh early. '90s. 1995 she comes across a Chinese. folk tale uh about about a girl walking. through a wood. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Do you know this one? >> No, I forgot that it was that was based. on a sort of Chinese folk tale. But yeah. or inspired by. >> inspired by the girl walks through the. wood with a tiger, convinces the tig is. terrified of the tiger, convinces the. tiger that she's the queen of the.

jungle. And then as they go through the. rest of the forest or as they go through. the rest of the jungle, uh the tiger. sees how frightened all the other. animals are and assumes that they're. frightened of the girl. So that's the. Chinese folktale. And Judo Donaldson. thinks, "Oh god, there's something in. that, isn't there?" Uh starts sort of. kicking it around a little bit and her. kids really help her out with it and you. know, oh maybe maybe a tiger's not. right. And actually tiger doesn't really. rhyme with anything. Uh so comes up with. the idea of maybe you know being a. monster. uh and comes up with the gruff.

She said, "Look, it's four years later. she writes it." Okay, so this is again. this is the writing process. She's. thought it and thought she likes this. tale, but it's not right. And anyone who. knows the first Gruff understands some. of the things she then did to that story. to turn it into something um even more. extraordinary. So 1999, she writes it. She said it takes her two weeks, and. don't forget that two weeks is just. writing that text. She'd been thinking. about it for four years. um sends it to. a publisher but also goes oh that guy. who did uh who did that book with me.

four years ago Axel Sheffller I wonder. if he'd like it so sends it to Axel. Sheffller as well and the Gruff is. published and 18 million copies of that. book later and many many other books. Room on the Broom Zog things like that. she is the bestselling British author. since records began and I do think when. we think about writing and books. >> right the way back to the late 1960s you. could see what she cared about she could. see that she was writing songs. You. could see she cared about kids. You. could see she cared about participation. And that's how you do it. I think you.

you have to really mean it. >> Absolutely. I think that there's so many. interesting things she said that I find. sort of kind of fascinating. The stories are sort of about. storytelling and the the new one which. is sort of inspired by again by. Shahazard from the Arabian Knights, but. you can it it takes in all these stories. from the Julia Donaldson and Axel. Sheffller extended universe. There's a. bit of room on the broom in there. There's a bit of monkey puzzle. There's. the snail and the whale within the gruff. granny story. And it's incredible when.

you think, you know, >> I think the gruff itself is like 700. words. You read these things on the. internet now where people think they've. done some long form journalism. It's. like, my god, this isn't long form, it's. just long. You've done 5,000 words and. it could have been said in 50. >> The amount that is packed into tiny. amounts of words in these kind of. children's books. She's very. interesting. What she said was she. doesn't like books as medicine. and. she's got this kind of very something. very distinct about she's got a very. 2020 kind of memory of what it's like to. be a child and what children want and as. you say through constant interaction.

with it. >> Um and so she's not rude about books. about she said there are a lot of books. about sort of feisty girls and climate. change and things like that. Um and she. says there's an awful lot of books about. I love you mommy. Yes, I love you too. darling little bear. We all know these. and they do sell brilliantly. And she. said, "But there's so many books on that. which I think are probably quite. reassuring for the parents." And it's. such an insight, isn't it, that she. says, "Most children, I would hope would. take for granted that their parents or. carers love them. They want a story. where you're not with them and you're.

having some sort of adventure." And I. just think I know just get to here, right? She's and what. it's also part of the sort of I not. business story of it all, but how hard. it is to break into that market because. the children's book market is enormous. whatever it is a third of all books sold. or something but there's a huge amount. of nostalgia within that market so. parents just want to read the books that. they had when they were children and. their children like them too so you're. buying things like you know the tiger. who came which is amazing by the way I. couldn't we could do a whole special on.

Judith car as well so but you're buying. books like that you like when you were a. child you know your like the oilbergs. good night moon all these sort of things. that you had um so it is really hard. within a with a market that's kind of. like that to break through with. something completely new. And rhyming, by the way, was really out of fashion. because in order for it to make any. money, you basically had to translate. it. And as we've discussed before in. musicals, >> it's very difficult to translate, but. and especially someone who is obsessed. with a scansion as she is, she's like.

she is she refineses and refineses and. refineses these books. And I think it's. really interesting that, you know, she. managed to break in the in the hardest. way really to break through with rhyme. and a new books and something that, as. we say, isn't immediately like, "Oh my. god, I love my kid. That's why this. title is all about how much I love you.". >> And two ways that she did break through. and both both of which I think are very, very interesting. And both of which, funny enough, the mirror image of this. Mr. Beast thing of you really don't need. social media followers. um because she.

toured for years. This this marriage she. had with Malcolm who's who sadly passed. away um a few years ago seemed so. beautiful and the two of them don't. forget this guy is like a like a very. very senior pediatrician. This guy he's. like he's got a full-time job. He's. working in hospitals. He's saving. children. But they would tour the. country just the two of them with their. guitars and sing songs at schools and. libraries. Even when you know when the. gruff was being published that's the. thing that they would do. >> So all of these places people remembered. them. people who remembered exactly what.

they did. They left a great impression. wherever they were. And so they built up. this sort of ground swirl. So there were. enough people who sort of knew who they. were. And she said, you know, after the. first couple of weeks, it is and it's. true as true now as it was then, it was. word of mouth. People read that book. were like and every learning that she. had got from that long career and every. sort of ounce of love in her heart, all. of which come across in that book, people just went, "Oh, this is great. this this feels like it's at a different. level to other things. And so that.

combination of things of going up and. down the country really putting the work. in and then people reading it and loving. it turns you into the bestselling author. in Britain. And you know it's amazing. that you know the book is out there and. people head heading up and down the the. country to their local bookshops to buy. it and kids being able to buy it and. libraries just being inundated with. people wanting to get this book as well. and what an extraordinary life and. career she had and what what a what a. testament to her these books are and how. lovely that we have someone like her.

right in the heart of our culture. Right. >> Absolutely. I just I I I couldn't admire. it more and I just as I say the book is. so sort of meta that it really in a way. that whenever you read I mean I remember. when I was reading my children stories. like this you're thinking but what's. really happening here you know the one. thing that hasn't happened is a tiger. hasn't come for tea. Okay what is this. actually about? Yeah, of course, but. you're always thinking this. But if you. are a parent reading these to small. children, which I no longer am, you will.

100% be deep in the meta of like how are. all the other books fitting into this. It's so interesting. It there's so much. contained in so few words that I think. it's it's a lesson to anyone who writes. of how much you can do. >> Exactly. So, um I loved to to uh I love. to Julia um she lives two other facts. She lives in the village where my. granddad used to be the village Bobby. many many years ago. >> They bought her and her husband when. they the post office was going to close. down. They bought it so it didn't close. down. >> That's what you want, right? Uh and her. great niece is Lola Young who uh sings.

messy. >> I did not know that. >> Yeah, that's a family, isn't it? That's. a family knows how to write songs. >> Wow. Okay. >> Yeah. There you go. Any recommendations. this week? I would like to recommend the. second series of the paper if you. remember what happened at the end of um. the first series and if you haven't seen. the first series um it's a sort of it's. technically like an office spin-off but. it isn't really um. >> Oscars in its in it but um if you. remember what happened at the end of the. first series don't worry it didn't. change anything.

>> okay. >> um and it's it's just it's a it's a it's. a wonderful show about a an industry. newspapers that are in a terrible terri. trouble decline. >> And I've got a simple recommendation. which is if you live anywhere near an. independent bookshop, go in there and. ask them what you should buy because uh. they they are the best of people and. they'll suggest something absolutely. amazing and every high street is better. for having a a um independent bookshop. Uh and they're absolutely thriving and. you will pay a couple of pound more for. your books than you would do online. But.

that's because as I always say, they pay. rent and they pay taxes. Uh but uh. please please please support them. >> I know. >> Um that's it for us I think. Yes, back. with the that Bond episode for our. members tomorrow. And otherwise, see you. on Thursday. >> See you on Thursday.