The Return of Holly Willoughby

What are we talking about this week? >> We are going to talk about Holly. Willoughby has launched a new show and. it is a YouTube exclusive. It is not on. terrestrial TV. We're going to talk. about the reviews for that which have. been um sensationally, I'll say. misguided, uh but we'll talk about um. whether it's a good move for Holly and. what it means about um the future of. talent on television. >> And we're going to talk about. mockbusters. Elon Musk's now several. months obsession with how accurate. Christopher Nolan's Odyssey is has. reached new heights as he threatens to.

actually go ahead and make some a new. version of it on his own. >> Yeah. We'll talk about the different. ideas he's got for doing it. >> All with AI, you'll be delighted to. hear. And we're also talking about the. Jared Leto documentary on BBC One. >> The Rest Is Entertainment is presented. by Octopus Energy. Now, one talent can. make a career, three usually gets you an. official title. >> Yeah, and that official title is a. triple threat. You can call it triple. threat anyone who can act, sing, and.

dance. >> Now, these days three can seem almost. modest. The same person might write, direct, produce, and have another career. on the side. >> J. Lo would be a triple threat. Huge. music career, started as a dancer, huge. acting career as well. It's an amazing. talent to be able to have. >> And now uh drinks mogul as well. >> Is she? >> to You have to be the mogul now. I think. the mogul is always the third thing now. that's like. >> a quadruple threat. >> Yeah, I I sing, I act, and I have a. lifestyle portal. >> But uh that phrase all singing, all. dancing, it escaped entertainment and. now it's used for anyone and anything.

that does several jobs very well all at. once. >> Which is a pretty fair description of. Octopus. It's the UK's largest energy. supplier, one of the country's biggest. installers of heat pumps, solar panels, and batteries, and it runs a major. electric car leasing business for good. measure. >> I mean, that's a quadruple threat, isn't. it? >> a quadruple threat. >> Shall we start then with Holly. Willoughby? So, she's She's there a new. show, it's called Holly Willoughby. together. Launched on YouTube last week.

The second episode came out on Friday. It is sponsored by Voy, the starts as a. men's health brand. I think there was a. men's health brand and a women's health. brand. >> It's a weight loss thing actually, really. >> They do other things as well. They. branch out. >> It's a sort of deconstructed. morning magazine show, isn't it, this. show? It's lifestyle programming. It's. chat. It's cooking. Um you can see. there's going to be interviews and. fashion. It's the sort of thing you. might have seen to some degree on um. This Morning at the one that's come out. is her um Stanley Tucci comes around to.

um a kitchen and makes some pasta with. her and chats with her. >> And then the the the one on Friday is. Katherine Ryan. And because she she. doesn't cook with her, they have a. little drink. They just sit down on the. sofa. So yeah, it's sort of This Morning. light is what Holly is good at, but it. is YouTube exclusive. Now, the reviewers. I mean you can say it's a fun show to. review because you know they and. everyone's been punching down that it's. the [clears throat] the the reviews have. been scathing. I don't know how to. review the reviews, but my review of the. reviews would be. >> I'll review the reviews. Yeah. Okay.

I'll good. Let's review the reviews. They reviewed it as a TV show, which it. isn't. It is a YouTube um thing. And if. you can review all sorts of things on. YouTube in a different way than you. might on TV. It's not the same as With. Love Megan because that is obviously. made for Netflix and it was very much a. TV show. >> They were all comparing it to With Love. Megan, which is what one of the most. expensive. pieces of content you're ever going to. see. >> Yes. Um and it's very much a TV show and. it's designed as a TV show, whatever. This is supposed to be different. And. there's lots of sort of little clues for.

how they want to make it seem different, I think, which we might as well talk a. bit about the visual language of it. Um. that it's kind of deconstructed. You can. see the people with the cameras. sometimes. They have quite a few. cameras. Obviously on YouTube normally. people don't It can be quite low-fi. They even had a camera inside the fridge. um. that to see her getting the stuff out. They definitely had four camera. operators. I know. What we kept seeing. her cuz sometimes you'd wander across. the shot, I think on purpose. Because. it's deconstructed, they want you to. think it's authentic and um it's in a. kitchen, but it's a built kitchen.

>> Yes, but they're showing you it's a. built kitchen. >> you it's a built kitchen, yeah. And, you. know, there's flags saying it includes. paid promotion, so it's definitely a. YouTube thing. By the way, I would say. to a lot of the reviewers, this is what. lifestyle programming is. It's what. morning magazine shows are. It may not. be for you. It's a. It reminds me occasionally when you'll. get one of the food critics will go and, you know, I don't know, review. Wetherspoons or something. It's like, yeah, it's not for you, okay? It's. It's not It's not supposed to be what. you're what you're not You're You're not. >> Yeah, you're not understanding on its.

own terms. See, she is a native to this. kind of thing, Holly. She's That's where. she comes from. >> And they're sort of deconstructing her. as well. We start with kind of We start. with the thing that funny enough we're. talking about the Q&A, the Netflix thing. where we we sort of see the bit before. the bit where she's sort of wandering. around and Stan is about to arrive and. you she swears and stuff like that. And. you know, they're they're sort of. sitting at a stool that says this. absolutely is Holly, there's absolutely. going to be cooking, there's absolutely. going to be celebrities, but this is not a terrestrial. >> No. >> television program. So, the the visuals. of it, it deconstructs what that show.

is. And the way she is allowed. >> all the working. >> Yeah, and the way she is allowed to. present deconstructs who she is as a. human being as well. It doesn't take. long before you get a before you realize. Holly has always been exactly what she. is on TV. So, you know, it's absolutely. uh. Also, of course, if you're a TV. reviewer, and listen, what what else can. they do? I don't review the first. episode or something. Because they don't. know what it is yet. They don't quite. know. You can see what they're. absolutely If If If you're reviewing it, you have to understand the process of. making a television program. You have to. understand the process they're going.

through, what it is they're trying to. do, and how they're trying to do it. >> Well, I would actually counter that you. have to understand the process of making. a YouTube video, which I don't think. anybody that I read any reviews of did. understand. >> Stewart Heritage did actually, to be. fair. He I think he was on stance. gets. a free pass, I think he's. but but yeah, the rest of it and listen, I get it, you know, you've got to fill a. column, haven't you? It's it's it's. absolutely fine and you know, Holly can. handle herself. But yeah, I thought that. if anyone had read the reviews and had. read the thing that they they might get. a different impression as to what's.

happening here cuz I think it's it's. rather interesting. >> Okay, so let's talk about how it's. performing which is interesting. Again, we're comparing something this morning. gets about what 600, 700,000 viewers. >> Yeah. >> So, this had 35,000 viewers in its first. 24 hours. Um 11,000 subscribers quite. soon after launch. Now, that it's not. yet backed by YouTube's recommendation. system. I'm going to get on to what I. think they didn't do right for YouTube. because I think that you know, you can't. talk about it as a YouTube video not as. a TV show. So, what you're what they'd.

be looking at is are the view counts. going to continue to grow? Does it have. some sort of tail as content? >> Yeah. >> Do clips start appearing in recommends? I think that as with all these things. and that this is a such a different. medium and obviously lots of things so. much from Goal Hanger goes on all the. time goes on to YouTube. They learn, they refine all the time. This is what. people who make things for YouTube do is. they learn. >> It is. unlike television the the feedback in. this sort of world is almost immediate.

and and for a good producer and we'll go. on to the producer that this is. Holly's husband Dan. For a good producer. that's absolute gold dust because they. they can just change as they're you. know, cuz they see what viewers respond. to in almost real time. >> I agree and in this case the things that. they didn't get right from talking to. various YouTube experts is the. thumbnail's wrong. >> Mhm. >> The headlines and the production design. are much more like something off TV. You. know, the sort of things that you you. know, Stanley Tucci's coming around.

That's the sort of thing you might have. put for an item on This Morning. If you. don't have a an unbelievably hooky and. good 30 seconds at the start people will. just drop off YouTube. Uh 30 seconds is. the absolute key. So, if you have a. rambling thing which they had like all. the Stanley teachers coming on. I get. that it was good for her in some ways to. set up the show like that. They will. have to drop that because that doesn't. work. You have to have an unbelievably. hot first 30 seconds and that hooks. people in. Otherwise, it's bit much more. you can get away with it on TV but you.

can't elsewhere. And if they don't have. that hooky thing and they don't keep. people, then the YouTube algorithm will. not push it. So, they have to get that. right. That will have to change. >> Which it will. >> Yes, because that's what people on. YouTube do. They realize very quickly. where they're going wrong because they. get so much data and then they change. it. >> they do it right. So, why is she doing. it is the next question which I think is. far and away the most interesting one. So, Holly Willoughby is not someone. whose career is on the side. Holly. Willoughby wants to work on terrestrial.

TV. She can go into any office tomorrow. and get a job on terrestrial TV. That is. absolutely open to her in every way and. her husband Dan Baldwin he's making this. with with a his team Hungry Bear. He. is making loads of things on terrestrial. TV at the moment as well. So, why does. Holly Willoughby launch a YouTube show. when as you say you know you might get. 40, 50,000 viewers in a day as opposed. to 600,000 viewers. You know, which. feels a very different thing. Well, I. mean the reason that she does it is.

because it has a brand behind it which. is as I say Voy and there's plenty of. other brands who are investing in these. areas. We talked about micro-influencers. last week and brands are. getting incredibly proactive about this. sort of thing. And the argument might be oh my god well. she's got she's doing it for a brand. It's all sponsored. It's all this that. and the other. Anyone who's ever worked. for ITV and Channel 4 have been working. for the advertisers for the entire. history of those channels. It's just. the advertisers. throw all of their money at various. little slots. That is then apportioned.

out. That money then goes to ITV. That. money then goes down to the talent. and to the program makers. There's an. awful lot of fat in between. Say Voy. want to make a 30-second advert and and. put it on Channel 4. They can buy, you. know, 4 hours worth of airtime. They can. stipulate roughly where they want it to. be, but they don't get the exact thing. of where they want it to be. That money. goes into ITV via about four different. middle men and middle women. That money. then goes back down to the production. company again via lots of different. people. In this instant, Dan Baldwin and.

Holly would be considered across the. table from Voy. Voy can say, "This is. our marketing spend.". They can say, "This is what we can make. for you. Let's make this show together.". So, they're working for advertisers, but. they've cut out every single middle man. >> Yeah. You own your own value. >> You own your own value. You own your own. IP. So, everything she creates belongs. to her or belongs to the. production company as well. So, so you. own everything. You're getting paid. directly. We are in a world now where. brands are savvy enough that they do not.

compromise the content with their brand. I remember when this all started only. 20, 25 years ago and people say, "Oh, are you. You can't make shows made by Pepsi cuz. it will just be all about how great. Pepsi is.". I mean, that's a long, long time ago. that attitude. You know, brands A brand. like Voy understands that the only way. they get any benefit from this. relationship is if the show is. successful and the only way the show is. successful is if Holly is allowed to be. herself and that people come into that. and it appeals to them. So, for the. brand it really, really works. It's much. It's a much cheaper way of advertising.

because they're absolutely. laser-focused. They know that Holly has. got the exact audience they're looking. for. They absolutely understand that. So, they're happy to go all in on Holly. rather than spread their money across. different demographics. Holly. understands where the money is coming. from and understands that she is getting. all of it and the production team team. do as well. And if it grows, it grows. They make a. plenty of money. If it doesn't grow, we. move on. But you can be yourself. You. can make programs in a way that you. haven't done before. You don't have to. sit across the table from a. commissioner. Now, the the flip side of. this, by the way, is they're There's.

sending you money in terrestrial TV. So, this is this is not uh you know, everything is going to be YouTube now. If you look at this morning, that's. still a very profitable television show. And Ben Shephard and Cat Deeley who do. that, they're making plenty of money and. doing a brilliant job, and the audience. are enjoying it, and advertisers, you. know, get a lot of benefit from. advertising in This Morning. So, these. two things are coexisting at the moment. But, if you are [snorts] talent like. Holly who knows that people will come to. the thing that she does, I don't know why you wouldn't do this. too. [clears throat] Like, really, really uh obvious examples. Well, too.

Well, Gordon Ramsay who still does a lot. of terrestrial TV, but his terrestrial. earnings are dwarfed by his earnings. from YouTube and Insta and TikTok. I. mean, he he a very, very long time ago. worked out this is where he wanted to. be. An even better example, Piers. Morgan. But, Piers Morgan does nothing. on television and makes an absolute. fortune because he understands that if. you can talk directly to a particular. audience, your ad rates are enormous, the engagement you get is enormous, the. feedback you get is enormous. And it's. it's a really, really seductive thing.

for a piece of TV talent to do. And it. employs a crew in a way that like an. individual YouTuber doesn't. So, it's. not terrible for the industry. There's. people being employed there that are on, you know, proper contracts, being being. uh paid properly. And. it is going to be the first of many. >> But, it's across media. And it's my. apart from big stars doing it, there's. so many people if you look at, you know, journalists and I'll start to think, "Well, I only need a certain amount of. paid subscribers before I get up to what. my salary was. So, I'm just going to go.

off and do this myself, and then it will. stand or fall on me." And there are so. many the whole of the creator economy is. eating media as we know it in lots of in. lots of ways. And I think that so many. people will go off and do these things. >> But, she is so in the heart of. mainstream. And the interesting thing. about it, I've looked at it a little bit. deeper into the numbers for the first. week. And one of the interesting things. is the 35 to 55 audience is really, really, really significant. And that was. an audience we didn't think watched. YouTube. And again, because we're. thinking about what things were like 15.

years ago. But that is an audience who. has grown up with watching YouTube. They. are watching it, 50% of them, on their. televisions. So, you have got an. audience who absolutely are bang in the. middle of the ITV daytime demographic. who are now very, very comfortable, not. only with watching YouTube and sort of, you know, finding. content on YouTube, but watching it on. their big television in their living. room at a time that they want to. And. that's incredibly. >> Yeah. I I want to say a little bit of. something about the type of criticism. that I think particularly women who do.

this kind of thing get. >> Yeah. >> There's a continuum between lots of this. stuff and people who say. uh no one likes her. It's like, okay, you cannot front one of those shows and. no one likes her. It's like people say, "Oh my god, everyone hates Claudia's. hair. It's ridiculous." It's like, okay, she's got a deal with a shampoo poo. brand. I think that's because they know. a bit more about whether people actually. like her hair. I'm sorry, I have to. stand up for women in this particular. case. People really like her, okay? Not. everyone really likes her and it may be. that you don't really like her, but.

people in general really like her, which. is why she's had such an unbelievably. successful frontline career. >> why a massive company like Voy, who who. are very, very targeted in what they do, again, this is the literally the perfect. person for us. I mean, you should be so. lucky to be the perfect person for a. company with a massive marketing spend. You know, it's because you're trusted by. a large demographic and you're not. trusted by a large demographic for no. reason. You know, she's built that over. years and years and years. And and the. people out there who just, you know, will go, "I don't know anyone who. watches that program. I don't know.

anyone who likes her." You think, "What. >> Yeah, it's not for you. >> That's you. That's not That's not her. That's you. You have to just look at. look look at what's happening out there. You know, and some I mean, the reviews, genuinely, there were there was one. amazing You shouldn't be allowed to. review TV if you don't know about TV. There's one brilliant bit but cuz Oh my. god, the worst bit was. >> They should have to apply to you to be. allowed to review TV. >> run out of steam, you could tell, and so. So had this emergency draw with British. food on it. So you know, she brought. out, you know, free Bento's pie and you. think, "Oh my god, how desperate are. you?" You think "No, that's an item.". >> Yeah. >> That is an item on the show. You've got. one of the great epicureans of the world.

Stanley Tucci on. And so you make sure. you've got a Russell's burger and you. talk to him about it. That's just an. item on a television show. Always has. been, always will be. That is not then. going, "Oh my god, we've run out of. stuff. Um oh, do you remember the. emergency drawer? Holly, there's the. emergency drawer." It's That was the. program. >> Yeah. It would Yeah. It It'll be interesting to see how they. change up each week. I will I will. definitely watch to see how they adapt. because that is the That's the mark of. anyone who's successful on YouTube. It's. just constantly feeding back what you. learned last time out, really.

>> And I think that's the thing that she. will That's the difficulty of it. There. is something about making terrestrial TV. that actually is sort of you have a huge. amount of support. >> Yeah. >> all of the time. You get holidays off, you know, you get people who coming on. Friday and do the gig for you. All of. that kind of stuff. Lunches. You don't get that here. What you're. going to get here is the more work you. put in, the more money you will make if. it works well. And which is a really. really really great thing. But after a. few years you might just think, "God, I'm really really knackered. I wouldn't.

mind just something a little bit more. cushy." This you have to be a. self-starter. You really have to be in. it and you're competing against these. kids who are sort of 20 21 in their in. their first job who are just doing this. non-stop and who absolutely understand. how to do it. So. it is very very very possible that this. show will fail. But only because all. shows fail. >> Yeah. >> Not because it's Holly, not because it's. YouTube. This is the where things are. going to go next. This is what everybody. wants to do. And if a brand wants to. spend their money and wants to reach a.

certain demographic, you can see the sense in them being. laser-focused on somebody who brings all. of those people in at once rather than. diffusing it through a terrestrial. channel and just saying, "Well, it's. slightly be slightly scattershot.". They're not scattershot. They're They. are at you know, people at Channel 4 and. at ITV and 5 are very, very good, but it. it is more diffuse and it is harder to. measure what it is that your brand is. doing. One of the interesting things. here, of course, is that. you know, brands are very good at when. all the data comes in of working out who. to back. And on this one, and this is.

going to happen more and more and more, they're in at the very, very beginning. >> Yeah. >> They're in before there's any view. counts, they're in before there's any. feedback. You know, they're absolutely. in at the start of this and they're. trusting the production company and. they're trusting Holly. And it's just a. you know, I just find it I find it very, very interesting. Yeah, I I just. >> I want to say one more thing actually as. well, because. I think what happened to her was so. unbelievably awful. The story of what. happened. This guy who plotted to. kidnap, rape, and kill her and was.

imprisoned. I literally don't know how. she's gone back out and done her I think. she's absolutely you know, and every. people have no idea the rubbish that. people have to deal with, but that is an. extreme example. I mean, every woman in. the public eye I've got some of my own, but you can't even talk about it cuz it. might make them angry or they believe. you're talking directly to them. But I. think it's absolutely amazing that she. has just got up and started a completely. new thing. I think it's it's such a. testament to a spirit that I mean, you. know, not to be too trite, will carry.

her through thinking, "Okay, I'll lean. in, I'll change, I'll do whatever is. necessary." I think I'm I mean, she's I. think she's a real hero and. >> it with my family and I'll do it with. the people that I trust. One of the. reviews said, "It's not even her own. kitchen.". And you're like, come on, read the room. >> Really? >> Come on. I mean, I mean, really. Let's. have a little think about it. Um so, I I. think it's Listen, it it's uh. I think there's jobs out there for the. thing I the talent is all well and good. and Holly will always make money. wherever she wants to be. >> And employ a lot of people about one by.

the way. I saw her talking about it. >> want people in the I want people in the. gallery, I want lighting directors, I. want all the I want these people still. to be employed and I think if we can. start making shows a bit like this and. it's a success, it's good news for the. TV industry. And as I say, this is not. YouTube versus ITV because ITV is you. know, you can still make money on these. things, but it but it is it's it's a. direction of travel. You know, equally. the BBC this week as we know they're. having to cut down on their content. spend and they cancelled a few shows. So. they cancelled Celebrity Mastermind, which I sort of get again which lovely. to watch but we don't really need it.

Uh they cancelled Blankety Blank, which. again it's a bit of fun but we don't. really need it. They cancelled Live at. the Apollo, which is an interesting one. cuz when that came out it was you know, the sort of savior of stand-up. Uh so I. talked to loads of comics this week. about what what are people thinking? And. they're all going they're all kind of. going I mean, yeah. I mean, I get it. I. mean, stand-up really really has worked. out how to use Instagram and TikTok and. YouTube. You know, it's really really. worked it out and and to have this show. >> No one's suggesting stand-up's on on its. knees any longer. >> Yeah, and it's had this great history.

and it's been brilliant. It's launched. an awful lot of people but it it's even. the comics are kind of and actually I. think a lot of the production companies. are kind of kind of going I think that's. probably fair enough. I think if the BBC. has got license fee money, there might. be better places to put it. So I think. terrestrial TV is really really working. out how to cut its cloth to keep. competing with these other channels but. it's fascinating that Holly with the. demographic that she has. >> That older demographic. >> a younger demographic is understanding. that YouTube is a place that they are. now going as well and that is a change.

that never going to stop. You know, we're going to get more and more and. more YouTube natives and we'll see more. and more of this stuff I think. And. equally if you're going to Dan Baldwin. who I mean, he's Holly's. husband but it's so it's just. interesting and instructive in here if. he was the producer whatever I talk. about it. You know, Hungry Bear who he runs you. know, they do Gladiators. They do all. sorts of different shows. So you know, he understands there's still plenty of. money to be made in terrestrial. television. It still makes very very. good terrestrial television. But.

he sort of understands that also he's a. content creator and that his company. makes content and they can do that for. BBC One or ITV or Channel 4, but they. can be doing it by themselves. And the. one thing you will learn very, very. early on as a producer is the different. returns you get from different channels. Like which channels will keep your. rights like Netflix will keep your. rights. BBC you're obviously getting a. lot less money. Anyway, there's all. sorts of different commercial deals you. do with different channels and that. really affects your back end and what. you're making next year and in three. years and in five years. And the thing. about YouTube that almost all production.

companies, if you can get a decent brand. on board as well, is the back end. position can be. incredible. You know, it is it it gives. you a creative freedom because no one's. telling you what to do because I'll tell. you now a brand will tell you less what. to do than a channel will do. And you. get to keep that IP and you get to. exploit it. And there's all there was. all sorts of paid content in there and. there's all sorts of brands that you can. >> was lots. >> Yeah, and you kind of think, well, I. mean, listen, I. I I guess that's okay. >> on that platform. You can't be fussing. about that. I mean, that that is the. platform. >> Yeah, I think exactly that. And you can,

you know, you can earn there's all sorts. of commercial opportunities you can get. off the back of it which you can't you. could which you either have to share. with a channel or on the BBC you can't. have at all. So, it it makes absolute. sense for producers. It makes absolute. sense for presenters. It looks like it. makes sense for viewers. But I don't think it's the death of. television, but I just think these two. things are going to coincide for a for a. long while to come. And that's sort of a. born out actually by the the Ofcom. report that came out this week. The big. headline of was oh more people now have. Netflix as their default than the BBC. I.

think it's 25% to 24%. I think my. television, which is an LG, I think. automatically defaults to Netflix. So, I. don't know about those numbers. >> You know my thoughts. I just think DCMS. should put a button on the remote. Just. get a button on the remote. Put iPlayer. on the remote. I'm just going to keep. saying this. >> But it's right. >> Put iPlayer on the remote. >> Yeah, no one's going to mind that. You. would you're not going to get in trouble. for doing that. That's an easy win for. for Andy Burnham. >> Mhm. >> at time of recording. But then you look. at the. you know, the top 10 most watched shows. in in the UK in the first half of the.

year And eight of them are terrestrial. Number one, of course, is Traitors. Night Manager is number two. Number. three is Traitors Uncloaked. So, yeah, >> [laughter]. >> I think that has to count with Traitors, I'm really sorry. Listen, it's lovely to. have a visualized podcast up there, but. it is it is still, you know, it's. >> I don't think it should. I think it's. stand-alone, and I think it should be. allowed to be counted separately. It's. brilliant. >> listen, yeah, listen, I absolutely get. it. Um Small Profits is up there, which. is really lovely. >> I mean, how cool. >> Yeah. There's only two Netflix shows on. the list, one of which is um Stranger.

Things, unsurprisingly. The other one is. Run Away, the the Harlan Coben. uh show. That's there in the top 10. >> is in. [clears throat]. >> She is in. Yeah, she is in. Uh and um but then actually you look. slightly further down that top 10, and. you see there's uh. the BBC entries there. You've got Call. the Midwife, Silent [clears throat]. Witness, and Death in Paradise. And. there you go, and they all skew slightly. older. >> Yeah. >> That is the interesting thing. They all. skew slightly older. But those are the. biggest shows, and it's incredible how. well the BBC does on that. So, this idea.

that people have got Netflix as Netflix. as the the default is absolutely it's a. thing, but again, the strength of terrestrial TV, I think, is still. >> You can make lots of numbers say. [clears throat] different things. depending on which way you're you're. doing your report. >> Anyone who listens to this show. regularly knows roughly the direction of. travel. But it's But we're not going. there super fast. >> No. >> That's the good news. We've got a few. years left yet. Us oldies. Shall we go to some adverts? >> Let's. >> [music].

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Retailer offers and cashback amounts may. vary. UK residents 18+. >> [music]. >> Welcome back, everybody. Now, when we. talked about Christopher Nolan's Odyssey. and Elon Musk having spent like 7 months. wetting his pants about it, we one of the things we did say was what. do you make Why don't you make your own. version then? If you if you've really so. upset about it, >> Why did we open our mouths? >> Well, any Yeah. Now, he's he's had two.

ideas in the last week. He's an ideas. man above all else. Uh the first one was to give a hundred. million dollars to Mel Gibson, which. might reminds I've got to check in on. the Resurrection of the Christ. That's. gone very quiet, hasn't it? You remember. they started filming in Italy. I need to. check in on that. Okay. Um to give Mel Gibson a hundred million. dollars to make a historically accurate. Odyssey. He's now pulled back from that. idea, I think. >> I think I I think and in the original. Aramaic, right? Was the idea? I think that was the idea.

>> He's now He now wants to Grok his AI um. He wants Grok to make a version. >> Grok. >> I of of of it. Yeah. I mean, he he's. very very angry about Matt Damon in that. role for some reason. I don't know why. because for me, okay, you know I loved. it and I did say right on the day I I. completely loved it. But for the movie. to be, which I think it is so somewhat. about, you know, American dads who cry. in their cars on the way home from work. >> Yes. >> Okay, it has to be Matt Damon. Of course.

it should be. It can only be Matt Damon. He's like he's every American dad, right? He's in the Chevy Tahoe on the. way back. But I don't know why he's. crying. We don't know why. That's what. the film's about. So. But anyway, he said, "I want to go and. make my own.". And he's going to use He wants to He. thinks it would be somehow more. authentic in some way. We know that he fundamentally. misunderstands art and interpretation. and all of that. But we honestly can't. re-litigate it that because it's just. too stupid. >> slightly seems to think that the Odyssey. is a true story. >> Yeah. >> [laughter]. >> But you know what I mean? Every time he.

says it has to be historically accurate. You think, "Sorry to what? Sorry to. what?". >> Well, you know, when the gods walked on. the earth. >> Yeah. I don't know if I can see why he thinks. that that that that that was true. But. yeah, he. definitely sees and he doesn't seem to. realize that almost the entire history. of Western literature is people is. people retelling the Odyssey and that's. that's sort of the point of it. >> cuz let's get into statistics. Why don't you actually even know if he. does probably. >> Can I say by the way, it'd be. interesting. I wonder if A, he's watched. the Odyssey. or B, if he's read it. I would You know. what? I absolutely wouldn't put it past.

him not to have watched the movie. >> he's got very clear s-notes take on. everything. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> I mean, not space rockets and stuff. But. But there is nonetheless an interesting. story here, which we are going to get. into now, which is Okay, to get into the. numbers, the Odyssey cost $250 million. to to make. I have seen people say $125 million for. the marketing. Personally, I think. they've spent more on marketing. It's. Universal. And what is interesting is that that. obviously that is right at the very top. end of anything that you'll spend in. Hollywood today. And what is interesting.

is that we I think we will see multiple. versions of the same story as people. think, "Oh, why can't I just especially. on this public domain stuff, which is. obviously the Odyssey has been out of. copyright for some time.". >> years. >> Um it's interesting. It By the way, that. happened people they made lots of. multiple things. I've said this on this. podcast before, but it's really. interesting. Warner Brothers made. >> Blockbusters, right? >> Yeah, well, yeah, but also people going. over and over the same thing until they. are light on the version that they like.

>> Yeah. >> And Warner Brothers made three versions. of the Maltese Falcon between 1931 and. 1941. And the '41 version is the. Humphrey Bogart one. And so, "Oh, I see. That's what we were going for." I'm not. saying that you're going to get your. perfect version of the Odyssey. But. it's interesting what Elon Musk cuz. someone like Elon Musk can do. He. Obviously, Grok has. bazillions of users. He has a. distribution platform. He Marketing is. very, very expensive, but it's not if. you own a platform. And what I think's.

quite interesting is Do people even want. the whole movie or do they actually just. want This is what a bit like what we. were talking about during the World Cup. Do they really want to watch 90 minutes. of football anymore? I hate to say it, but what they really want is a clip from. the Odyssey, the Nolan version, and then. next to it, you know, here's how it. should have been. I honestly think that. that's what a lot of people want. They. don't want to. >> much happier. I'll tell you what no one. wants is a 3-hour AI version of the.

Odyssey. No, I mean literally no one in. the world wants to watch that. I mean, I'll tell you who knows that, Elon Musk, right? And everyone knows that. You. know, there's there's there's an element. of. trolling going on here. He knows exactly. that, and he what he objects to more. than anything is how much publicity the. Odyssey is getting and how excited. everyone is about it and how often how. many people are giving it more than him. No one's giving it more than him. No, but he wants to he he wants to ride that. same thing. If you talk about the. Odyssey now, we talk about Elon Musk.

He's absolutely that 125 million or more. that Universal has spent on marketing, he has gone, "I will have a little bit. of that. I will take I will I will. inhale the fumes of the Odyssey, and I. will use it once again to, you know, put. me at the center of the conversation, which is what he's done. He doesn't give. a toss about making a 3-hour version of. the Odyssey. He's He's talking about. Grok doing it and it's still costing a. hundred million. You go, "What's the. point of AI then if it's costing a. hundred million?" The whole point of it. is, you know, you you can do it cheaply. To your point, so lots of people have. said, "This is why people have taken. them seriously." They said, "Well, look,

he could make that. And as you say, he. doesn't have to worry about distribution. or anything cuz he has this platform, which is X, and he could use that. platform to show it.". I don't think X is a platform that can. sustain. a phenomenon. Maybe Twitter could have done 10 years. ago, not anymore. I I think I think the. audience for it is too soft. I think the. users of it are too soft. I don't think. it's the sort of place that can really. build a huge enthusiasm. for anything. I think it can definitely.

build a huge train that says, "We hate. the Odyssey." Definitely, that's very. very easy to do. They could They can. absolutely monetize rage. I don't think it's the platform, unlike. Instagram, unlike TikTok, that can. create something and build something. that's really sustaining and beautiful. and artistic and nourishing. >> a. a 3-hour movie for everyone around the. world. Every time he'd have to do a live. stream, it falls over. >> Yeah. >> So, I'm not convinced that it can do. that. But, I do think this whole idea of.

mockbusters and people sort of coming in. and doing that, especially with stuff in. the public domain. >> Yes. >> People are coming in and doing doing. their own. People have been talking about I've seen. lots of stuff this week about the sort. of the middle bit. There are cheap. films, which is fine, and that will keep. going. And then there are these. incredibly expensive massive marquee. efforts like this, which is, you know, at the very top end of everything. But. then in the middle, there's lots of this. stuff, and if particularly if it's on in. public domain, if it's Jane Austen or. it's Dickens or whatever it may be,

Dracula, those sorts of things, people. have always done this in films, but you. can see people creating AI versions that. just cannibalize some of that or just. cocktail on the marketing spend of. something that's already out there. >> That's the key, I think. >> it's just it's like a companion piece. It's for the people who don't like this. sort of thing, but your version is also. out in the cinemas at the same time. That's actually quite an old Hollywood. trick. You know, if you go right back. into the past, people were always trying. to do spoiler films or try and, you. know, piggyback on somebody else's buzz. and publicity and whatever.

>> You know. >> And. >> Piranhas comes out straight after Jaws. All that All that All that type of. stuff. That's exactly what's going to. happen cuz it is this thing of when. Universal is spending 125 million on. marketing or more, they're not just. marketing the Nolan film, they're. marketing the idea of the Odyssey. And. you look at the book the you know, the. the books have got, you know, racing up. the the the charts and Emily Wilson's um. uh translation uh is now, you know, right at the top of the charts. They. they there there is an awful lot of eyes. on the idea of the Odyssey. And if you.

had decided to do your own half-hour. version made entirely by AI or if your. comedy troupe had done your own version. of it, now would be the time to do it. because everyone is talking about the. Odyssey. Everyone wants stuff about uh. the Odyssey. And as these barriers to. entry get cheaper and cheaper, every. time there's a Sherlock Holmes movie or. a Dracula movie, as you say, any of. these things that are that are out of. out of copyright, Frankenstein, you can. just do your own version of that. And. people are going to do that more and. more and more and more. I don't think. Elon Musk is going to be one of them. I. think you're absolutely right. I think.

if they're going to do anything, it'll. be to take some chunks of the film, do. their own version of that because that's. that's a much more entertaining watch. cuz you're you're you're looking at you. know, like with like. >> But also, that's all people can handle. They can only watch the 3-minute videos, I think we've proved. They can't they. can't be doing with a 3-hour film. They. just want clips that they can compare. side by side. >> Yeah, definitely if it's if it's an AI. one and they don't even get to see Matt. Damon. I haven't seen that he had a problem. with Matt Damon. I know he's got a. problem with Elliot Page and the Peter. and Yongo and uh. >> I just think he wants to just clear out. the whole lot and start again.

>> He's like, >> know what? It's nice to hate a white guy. for once." he's thinking. >> [laughter]. >> He's thinking, "Maybe I'll do that for. once." Yeah, I get it. But yeah, so. listen, whether he will do this or. whether he'll probably move on to the. next, you know, bright and shiny object that turns up. But I do think he's been very clever at. putting himself at the heart of the. biggest cultural conversation of the. year. I mean, he, you know, is increasing the rage in. the world. He's not doing it, you know, he's not making the world a better place. by doing it. He's making his life. slightly more bearable, maybe. Whatever. it is he needs when he wakes up in the.

morning, he is getting from this. But um. it's a, you know, if I I just don't. think that sort of thing is sustaining. in a creative economy. I really don't. So I I I I think he's doomed to failure. I genuinely I would, you know, if the if. the Odyssey had been maybe in 3 years'. time when when when the technology had. moved on a little bit more, I'd be. fascinated to see some of the younger. filmmakers. doing little versions of it, doing. little takes on it. You know, that kind. of thing that if you love it, you can go. home immediately and you can watch 10. different versions and you can watch. different people's takes on it and. different you know, that that I would.

love. Did you see what we were talking about. reviews on for the whole thing? Did you. see Emily Wilson's review of the. Odyssey? >> It It's quite It's quite a thing. First. of all, it's a brilliant commission. Whoever just thought, "I wish you'd get. her to uh. review it.". >> I'm happy to quote it now, but if you're. going to do it in a recommendation, we. can quote it in your recommendations if. you'd like. We'd rather do that. >> Yeah, let's do that. >> Uh and bear in mind, by the way, that. this is Christopher Nolan's favorite. adaptation of it as well and he quotes. it in his thing, but it's uh. yeah, gosh, keep listening for that.

Now, shall we finish, if we could, with. Jared Leto? >> Yeah, I would be remiss not to cover it and. it's it The BBC have done a documentary. uh directed by Alex McShane and um kind. of put together by Jessica uh Sartor. Air. Four women have accused Jared Leto on on. the record of um sexual misconduct and. ranging from sexual sexual assault, threatened sexual assault, statutory. rape to grooming. He says, I'm going to. want Well, let's put his denial up at.

the top. He says, "I've never sexually. assaulted anyone in my entire life. These claims are absolutely and. categorically false.". Um little primer on Jared Leto. He. starred in My So-Called Life, then he. was in Requiem for a Dream. He got got a. best supporting actor for his role in. the Dallas Buyers Club. He was in the. Suicide Squad. A lot of weird stories. appear during that when he was sending. his castmates rats and things like that. His last two films, I don't think this. is a particular coincidence in lots of. ways either, Tron: Legacy and Masters of.

the Universe have been massive massive. flops. Um but he also had a. uh rock one of those rock bands that. actors have. >> Mhm. >> will insist on. >> 30 Seconds to. >> 30 Seconds to Mars. Um now we've talked. before about It's interesting because. these stories have been in the ether for. a very long time. In 2005, the New York. Post ran some stories um sort of hinting. at this stuff. >> And not and not just in the ether. They. have, you know, literally reported it. >> Mail ran stories last year. They've been. You could see people have Part of what.

got people into James Gunn into trouble. was joking about these sorts of things. Um James Gunn, who runs the DC Universe. now for um Warners. Um. and we've talked before about open. secrets and why if something is a. so-called open secret, again I say Jared. Leto denies all this stuff. And and how. hard it is nonetheless. to get things onto the record. I have to. say that in terms of the documentary, the documentary is really well done. >> Yeah, it's really good. >> it's really good. Um have a watch of it. It's on iPlayer. Um absolute credit to.

them because it is incredibly hard to. get people to women particularly to talk. on the record for obvious reasons. They've got four of them on the record. 10 of them spoke. Um and they've. corroborated with friends and family. They've got contemporaneous messages. There's lots and lots of people running. It's a sort of masterclass in trying to. get stuff to air, which is incredibly. difficult with this kind of stuff. What. um and I'm I think it's great actually. that in lots of cases I think people. think I I you know it's not great for. the BBC to put their stuff on YouTube. In this case it's great to put it on.

YouTube because it gets maximum possible. discovery particularly in the US. I know that what people will be asking. is, um, you know, what happens now because you. get these documentaries come out and. then I have to say I am quite. pessimistic about sometimes what happens. with these things because. people cannot you know you got two. pathways either people can get charged. with someone something or they can't. Again, I would say no one has been. charged these are accusations at the. moment. Remember in terms of the Epstein.

files absolutely no one other than the. dead person and the woman who is in. prison have been charged and I don't. think they will be by the way. >> Yeah. >> And the most depressing thing for of. that for me has was seeing just being. able to see how some of the most. powerful men in the world named who we. all know talk about women because you. can read their emails and it's just like. and they're just carrying on I guess. running their companies and we all know. because we can see it. >> And so that's the stuff we can publicly. see and there's still a group of people.

who would go no I think that's where it. ends. I don't think any of those people. are taking any of that into their. private lives. I think that's I'm yes. you've given us absolute solid gold. evidence that these people talk that way. and these people talk about certain. things that happen. I don't believe any. of these people actually do the things. It's a weird world view if you think. none of these people have ever done. anything. >> It's ridiculous, right? It's ridiculous. >> I'm not casting any aspersions on anyone. but if you know something about somebody. you cannot take them to court cuz you.

don't have the evidence and we know that. how hard it as you say if no one in the. Epstein files is getting prosecuted it's. hard to prosecute anyone. You can't do. that. So what can you do? All you can do. is sort of keep them away from things. All you can do is sort of is just not. not employ them anymore. And it and it's. >> But it's the bit about the I mean, the. armies of enablers that always shock me. Just like how many people are. effectively informed about certain types. of behavior that are definitely off. color and just acting that way every. day, enabling it and allowing it. And as.

I say, he denies everything and we'll. see where it goes. But, as always with. these things, it's much less likely that. any charges will come come of it. >> And also just to nail the lie that they. always say, "Oh, yeah, but the women are. getting something out of it. They're. doing it They're doing this for money. They're doing No one's getting money out. of accusing Jared Leto or something.". >> No. It's all BBC. Let me just tell you. >> I mean, they're really really not. They're doing it cuz they're cuz it. takes incredible bravery to do this. stuff. It really really does. We see it. time and time and time again. And it's. the same people every time go, "Oh,

yeah, no, there's no evidence. There's. no proof." You go, "Oh, you've said this. about every single instance of this.". So, every single time it hasn't. happened, even though we're showing you. evidence of the world in which they. live. We're showing you evidence of you. know, what Clearly, you can see that. this world exists. Clearly, you can see. that there are enablers around people. But, every time it's still, "No, no, no. I don't I I don't believe any of it.". Nobody is getting famous from going on a. BBC documentary and alleging abuse. against Jared Leto. So, you have to ask. yourself, why are they doing it? Uh, recommendations for you.

>> what I'm recommending. I'm recommending. First of all, I love the London Review. of Books. Love it. This is an absolutely. great commission that's been incredibly. newsy. Um, and it's brilliant. It's such. a amazing magazine, obviously. Um, Emily. Wilson, the who's translation of The. Odyssey is very influential and and big. part of Christopher Nolan's kind of. preparation for the film. Uh, they asked. her to review it. >> I'll I'll say this. You have first said, "I'm very glad that this brought The. Odyssey back into the public. conversation." I appreciate it cuz he. sold a lot of books. Uh, but.

she watches the film. She also says, by. the way, that her teenage children. enjoyed the film. But, this is this is. Emily Wilson's take or a part of it. Nolan's Odyssey lacks many of the. elements that make the poem great. It. has nothing convincing to say about. time, memory, history, war, or the. relationship between one warrior's. glorious return and the lives of his. family, adversaries, comrades, friends, and neighbors. It lacks psychological, emotional, political, and ethical depth. Its narrative structure is gimmicky. The. writing is abysmal. None of the.

characters has convincing motivation for. their actions or words. There are no sex. scenes, and all the food looks. horrible.". >> [laughter]. >> Wow. I mean, you love you love the film. If I mean, she knows everything in the. world about the Odyssey. So, she is. allowed to have her own. >> Oh, for sure. >> take on it. For sure. But, that's great. Yeah, yeah. >> great. I I I love that she didn't hold. back. It's Yeah. Rising tide lifts all. boats. >> It really does. The recommendation is to. is to watch the film and to read her. translation as well. And to read the. Iliad. That was three Hold on, three.

recommendations in one. We're really. treating people. Um We'll see everyone. for a Q&A on Thursday. >> Yes. >> And the bonus episode this week's. another World Cup of And the World Cup. of um. bald men in show business. It is an absolute celebration of the. Jason Stathams, Samuel L. Jacksons, and. Bruce Willises of this world. >> Ross Kemp. >> Ross Kemp is in there. I'm not going to. give away any results. It was really, really good fun. It was really good fun.

>> Why isn't this a like. >> Uh That's again, I've done that with. Better Hull and uh Ivo Graham. We're. also We're still recording our. history of James Bond episode, which we. are loving, and that will be out soon as. well for members. If you want to be a. member, go to the rest is. entertainment.com. Um otherwise, we will. see you all on Thursday. >> See you on Thursday. >> [music].