The Film No One Wants To Touch

Billionaires, what are the billionaires. up to? What's what's going. >> up to? Because we are going to be. talking about artificial, which is. almost completed film about Sam Altman. that Amazon have just dropped for. reasons. >> They'll have a good reason. >> have a really great reason for doing. that. >> also going to talk about we're about to. have a new Prime Minister, as you know. >> What? Are we? We're recording this on Monday. Yes, I. believe that today we will see the great. drama-addicted, drama-afflicted British.

public will election for the seventh. time in a decade. >> And but please don't panic cuz we are. not going to talk about politics. We're. going to ask the question, is Andy. Burnham cool? >> But we're also going to say, can any. politician ever be cool? >> Yeah. But via his entertainment choices. We are not going to be talking about his. his monetary policies. We're going to be. talking about his favorite albums. >> That'll be a help. >> Right. And we're also talking about. Quentin Tarantino said there've been no. good films recently. He said there've. been no good films since the pandemic, which sparked a a bunch of lists and. things saying that there have been What. about you? ones. And we're going to talk.

a little bit about his comments, but a. lot about the phenomenon of the those. lists, those cultural lists that you. probably see a lot more of than you ever. used to. >> And I like the fact that you're saying. that like it's a bad thing, so I should. just say that I will also give him. everyone my top three films since the. pandemic. >> Oh my god, I know I have to do this. Okay, I will do this too. The Rest Is Entertainment is presented. by Octopus Energy. Now, fan mail is one. of entertainment's strangest bargains. You send total devotion one way on the.

understanding that nothing may come. back. >> Certainly in our day you would write to. a film star or a singer. I wrote to. Howard Jones. and you maybe 3 months later a sort of. signed photo comes back that's clearly. pro forma, you know, that that you you. know Howard's never really looked at. >> Steve Martin used to have a pro forma. sort of thing which would just leave. blanks, like insert like small details. to to make a joke about how completely. impersonal his personal reply to you. was. And it was just like a standard. thing. >> Impersonal is interesting. That's why. we're talking about this cuz Dr. Passanergy, you always can reply to.

their emails. And not only can you reply. to them, they will go to the same small. group of people who always deal with. you. That's like unbelievable. >> It's almost unprecedented that a company. you're giving your money your money to. will actually respond to you. >> contactable in some way. >> Sam Altman, Amazon, a lot going on. >> Okay, let's We have to do a little bit. Who is Sam Altman? Sam Altman is. >> Who is Sam Altman? >> Who Exactly. He has the cold dead eyes. of the boyfriend who joins in the search.

for the missing girlfriend in my view. But he is also He's like a dislikable. Elon Musk. He is I think potentially the worst, which really matters in in that. particular group. But he's the OpenAI. sort of chief executive. OpenAI Obviously, their most famous. product is ChatGPT, but they have. various other systems. Remember, it. started OpenAI as a not-for-profit, sort. of weirdly idealistic, altruistic. enterprise. And in 2016, Sam Altman was saying,

"Anyone familiar with the 1930s is. absolutely chilling watching Trump in. action." Anyway, by the time of the. second inauguration, there he was in. oligarchs' row. OpenAI is no longer a. non-profit. It is a rapacious capitalist. entity. They've accepted a number of. defense contracts that even Anthropic. said, "We can't in all conscience do. this.". >> Even Anthropic. >> Yeah. Anyway, so he is That That's who. Sam Altman is. And the film is called. Artificial. And it is the story of These are often.

quite helpful if you're trying to. dramatize anything. There's 5 days in. 2023 where Sam Altman is ousted at. OpenAI, and then he comes back. >> Spoiler alert. >> Spoiler alert. If you're catching up. with the last few years on Box Set, I'm. sorry. This film is directed by Luca. Guadagnino, who did Call Me By Your. Name, Challengers, >> But he's I mean, he's absolutely the. real deal. >> Yeah. >> Couldn't be more of a real deal of a. director at the moment. >> It's written by Simon Rich, who's a. former SNL writer, he's done various.

other things. It stars Andrew Garfield. as Sam Altman. Also, I mean, the cast is. a joke. It's not It's Also, Monica. Barbaro, Yuri Borisov from Anora. Um Ike. Barinholtz as Elon Musk. I have to see this. >> Ike Barinholtz, if if people didn't know. him, he's the guy who plays Sal. Saperstein on The Studio. So, you would. you. >> I really love him. >> And he doesn't look unadjacent to Elon. Musk. I'd never noticed it before, but. the second they said he was I was like, "I can't wait to see it.". >> Jason Schwartzman, Cooper Hoffman, Zosia.

Mamet, Chris O'Dowd, Mark Rylance. It's sort of long and strong, this. thing. Um and it's nearly finished. It's. at the sort of screening stage. >> Long and strong is your That's a That's. a cast list. >> It's Yeah, well, yes, like in a bridge. hand, but it's um. >> Like the Man City bench. >> In terms of what has happened, Amazon. has dropped it. Amazon. making this film, they you know, I don't. know what it's cost, something like 40. million, I think. Um and the decision has supposedly been. made to drop it. They've said it might. be better suited to another distributor.

>> And so, Jeff Bezos, who of of course is. the ultimate boss of Amazon, has a. friendship. with Sam Altman. And Sam Altman was at. the. Bezos Centches. wedding. >> Wow. >> [snorts]. >> Which we were not invited to. So, they. are friends. So, huh, it's almost like. some thing else is going on here. >> The decision's been made by Mike. Hopkins, we should say. He's He's the. head of Prime Video and Amazon MGM. Studios. >> So, can I ask you a question that we're.

all asking? Why would you finance a $40. million Luca Guadagnino. the whole thing? Why would you get that. stellar cast together? And then, why. would you, just before it's about to. start you know, playing at festivals and. stuff, why would you. suddenly drop it? >> Well, I mean, I suppose it comes down to who. you want to believe. They they think it. would be better suited to another. distributor. But, what we have to say is. that Amazon has a deepening relationship.

with OpenAI. A few months ago, they did. a huge deal with OpenAI. >> All the deals with OpenAI involve people. giving OpenAI billions. It's like one of. the weirdest things about modern life. >> Amazon basically giving a 50 billion. investment to OpenAI. >> But, last year. >> they did a I think sort of 30 or 40 38. billion cloud partnership. And so, yes. I mean, it it doesn't look great, does. it? Um but, they've got this far. >> The story is. they they'd obviously. commissioned this movie. They'd seen the.

movie. And word from inside the Amazon. campus I was it was actually it was a. lot darker. than we were imagining. And certainly. the people who've seen it, they say the. portrayal of Sam Altman and Elon Musk. are are particularly. I mean, brilliant. I It's what people. are saying, but but particularly bleak. and dark. And so, Amazon saw this. and decided that maybe cuz of course 40. million is the budget of the movie. So,

you're now at the stage where Amazon go, well, we're going to put this on our. platform. We're going to spend the. marketing money, which it could be. another 40 million. So, you're at that. pivot point. >> to put it in cinemas first because this. is clearly an this would have awards. chances. As we know, this is a sort of. but. >> But, if you're But, if you're Amazon at. that moment, this is this is a moment. where you if you can press the jettison. button, you are not paying for the. second half of that. And more. importantly, if you have relationships. with OpenAI, which clearly they do, you. are not having to use your platform to. constantly promote this thing. And.

you're not having to have Amazon. branding behind Ike Barinholtz and. Andrew Garfield sitting there talking. about the movie. >> Some people have seen an early draft of. this. So, we should say a little bit. more. It's obviously not a sort of. Hallmark him to Sam Altman. And people. who've read early drafts, which will. have changed, um but as you say, if it's. got darker, it apparently portrays him, Sam Altman, as sort of intensely. manipulative, a schemer, a sort of power. hoarder, monomaniac, etc. Um and there.

are lots of obviously there are lots of. walk-ons for other people, even. including people like the Microsoft CEO, Satya Nadella. And I mean, there's just. no way this can look good at all. And we. have to think of it in the context of. everything that has been happening. recently. First of all, you know, you. think about that movie The Apprentice. that starred Sebastian Stan as this sort. of young Donald Trump and Jeremy Strong. That was going to be 100% in awards. conversation, but it really struggled to. get distribution, really struggled. Even.

though it was quite clearly going to. pick up some awards, and it was. nominated for and it it was going to be. in all sorts of awards conversation. The problem is not with the creators. And a lot of people may think these. people these guys define our age. These. guys are the most extraordinarily. powerful. The problem is about them. being tackled as subjects is absolutely. not with writers and creators. I. personally know a number of people who. have projects about these guys in. development. And there are film and TV.

projects about the tech barons in. development, all of them. You know, we. do know that The Social Network is. coming out. >> Yeah. >> Which is the follow-up to The Social. Network. What what Mark Zuckerberg did. next. >> Yeah. Yes, and the trailer's out, and. that's coming out in October. Aaron. Sorkin, who has written and directed. this time as well, said that, you know, we haven't heard from anyone except. their lawyers saying, "Just be careful.". That's from Meta's lawyers. But we're. yet to see any films about Peter Thiel. in production. Even, you know, he's. extremely litigious. But he actually.

does. literally believe in the Antichrist. So, for me, you know, it seems like worth a. shot at covering him creatively. This is. a man whose companies are being knit. tighter and tighter into the apparatus. of. a number of supposedly democratic. states. I know so many people who've had. projects and it was really interesting. after the election of Trump in 2024, a. lot of those people, a lot of those. companies, the big companies called. those people who had those projects and. said, "Don't worry, we're still going to. carry on with them." Okay, I haven't.

seen any of those projects come out. >> Yeah. >> They are not even greenlit. I don't as. far you know, they're not. And a lot of. those people the studios are going to. and and these are not sort of small spec. script writers. These are people with. big overall deals who are tackling the. big subjects, the big people of the age. People are saying to them "Have you got. anything that isn't about, you know, Elon Musk or Bezos or whoever it is?". >> Have you got a buddy cop movie? >> Have you got something different? And. it's really interesting and that we've.

seen a few things. We saw Jesse. Armstrong's Mountainhead, but that was. that wasn't about specific, you know, it. was about. generally about tech bros. They did it. very quickly um to be eligible for. any consideration of various things like. that, but it's hard to say now that many. of these things are coming to light and. here is one that has got all the way to. that stage with an unbelievable, impeccable sort of creative team behind. it and they're just. putting it out. >> Can I present a counterpoint? >> Yes. >> A very brief counterpoint. Which is we.

didn't used to do these fast turnaround. movies about people who were still. active quite so much. It didn't used to. be a thing. There is an interesting. moral place where writers are if they. are writing about these people and these. people who are heavily lawyered as well. Uh and I don't think it's shocking that. there aren't 10 films a year about Elon. Musk and Mark Zuckerberg. I mean, I. understand why writers want to write. about them because they're unbelievable.

bogeymen and they are doing something. extraordinary that's never been done. before, and they are doing it in plain. sight, and yet a lot of what they're. doing doesn't seem to have crossed over. But, it is an unusual situation to be. in, and if I were a business person, which. you know, I am not. [clears throat]. Um. And I was. >> not terrible at it. >> And I was you know. I think it comes down to this. If Amazon had buried this, that would be. a shock. If Amazon had funded this and.

buried it and said, "No, well, it's our. movie, and we're not going to show it, but no one else can as well." That would. be one thing. For them to say, you know, they're holding their hands up and going. "We have a deep personal relationship. with the person this film is about.". >> They're not saying that, though. >> Oh, no, but of course, I mean. >> But it's quite obvious. I mean, don't. you care how history judges you? You. just paid 75 million for an abysmal to. Brett Ratner and Melania for an abysmal. documentary about her, but you can't put.

this out. Well, I mean, I'm sorry, what. do you think history's going to say. about you? Cuz I would be too. embarrassed to do it. >> Well, cuz they're not really a movie. company. I mean, 75 million, 40 million, I mean, it's zero to them essentially. It's. >> It's James Bond and the movie franchise. because they have that. I think they are. a movie company. >> that's the interesting one. It'd be. interesting to see who the baddie is in. the new James Bond movie. >> you who it won't be. He will not be. Chinese or North Korean. He will not be. because they are The executives are the. craven people. It is not the creatives. >> But, it is interesting that they're. allowing the the filmmakers to take it.

elsewhere, and it's had a huge amount of. publicity, a lot more publicity than it. would have done if they had shown it. anyway. And you know, it's been shown. across LA for the for the last week or. so. It's interesting who is passing on it. Cuz a lot of people have passed on it if. you if you believe the trade papers. A24. have passed on it. Netflix have passed. on it. So, whatever Amazon is worried. about showing Sam Altman in that light. or Elon Musk in that light, other people. seem to be as well. Cuz people are.

saying it's not a bad movie, but almost. everybody. is passing on it. And that's almost more. depressing. >> Yeah, I think. I think what's. to find another positive, these movies. can be. very influential. If you look at that. portrait of Mark Zuckerberg from The. Social Network, the first film, it was just incredibly influential as to. how people saw him for. from then on. But. you know, and he would dispute the. account that actually the way it was.

created was born out of a night of. incredible misogyny and rating women and. all of this sort of stuff. But that's. stark. >> Yeah. >> And if anything has sort of miraculously. shaded in something even darker now, which I'm sure we'll see in the second. film, but I think these films are. influential. I think it's more. depressing that they're doing this. publicly. I really do. I think that. they've become shameless. They. This is just the way things are now. We've seen all sorts of cavings to the. Trump administration, and we're seeing. just a much more a massively increased.

tension between media companies and the. tech firms and editorial independence. everywhere from news to whatever. It. would be interesting to see other test. cases like. you know, what if someone who's, you. know, traditionally regarded as brave or. whatever, someone at HBO comes up with. something, and it will be a test for. Casey Bloys at the top of HBO to say, "Oh, we're going to do this." And, you. know, how will the Ellisons feel about. this or that? And this will be a test of. the new form of ownership of of Warners.

by Paramount, Skydance, or whatever, and. by the Ellisons. >> Mhm. >> Will. will they cave? Will they do it? It's. very difficult. People are caving to. tech because tech is becoming. increasingly woven into all of their. systems, and they can't really exist. without it. And they've all doing deals. with with OpenAI. And we talked about. TBPM, which you know is a podcast I. like, but it's basically been bought now. by Open AI as a form of PR arm for. themselves. And I think that. editorial independence is being eroded.

all the time. And this is for me. the worst that I would almost prefer it. if they tried to do it, you know, shamefully and in in the background. Just saying openly that they're not. doing it. sends a chill wind for me. >> What happens though in this situation if. you are not able to go through these big. main channels to make movies like this. or to make art like this about the. people who are running the world? One. would hope that there's enough. countercultural money or enough money. that has not been tied up by Open AI or. people who are bending the knee to.

Trump. One would hope there's enough of. that money. And this is. >> I mean, what counterculture? I don't see. that there is one. >> Yeah, but then there there never is one. until the culture changes. That's the. point. >> I don't think there is a financial. counterculture that is is very very. hard. Why was it so hard for The. Apprentice to find a distributor in it I. mean, it was an absolute uphill struggle. for that. And it wasn't particularly. expensive. It was very good. And they. just couldn't seem to find anyone to. take it on. >> but even as you're saying that, all I'm. thinking is well, there's a gap in the.

market. And there's a very very. lucrative gap in the market. That's all. I'm That's all I think. You might not be. doing these through the legacy studios. where something's costing you 75. million, but you can certainly, you. know, if, you know, Blumhouse wanted to. do a horror. uh and. >> do a They should do a tech tech baron. horror. >> But, you know, that feels to me like a. such an easy thing to do. I think when. everything gets so calcified, when a. culture gets so calcified and so in the. hands of a very few people, which is. exactly what's happened now,

that's when. the fight back begins. I always think. that because creative people. never change how they're creative. Creative people never change the sort of. stories that they want to tell. It's. just that at the moment someone's not. going to give them. 40 million dollars plus another 40. million dollars in marketing to tell. that story. So, creativity is still creativity. It will. find a way through the dam, you know, the water finds its way through the. concrete. And I I. >> Maybe, but I don't think that there's. there's always a reaction to these. things. >> There is always a reaction, but you.

often have to live through a period of. censorship or, you know, self-censorship. first. And I worry that we're sort of. living through that period. And I think. that we clearly are, you know, that's. just a different calculus when people. are talking about, "Oh, we can't make. this project because of our cloud. partnerships." I mean, this is This is. something we haven't been thinking about. before, but you can see it across all. sorts of things. You can see it across. late night, across news, across now in. cinema. Lots of people are are just. stepping back and saying, "Well, we. won't do that. We'll do. bec- because these firms have become so.

completely powerful within their own. business. >> Yeah. >> Not just like there there outside people. in the culture that we might not want to. offend. They're so knit in to the. delivery of your services that you don't. really have another choice. Or they feel. they don't. >> And bullying works. >> Yeah. >> And not even bullying works. Sometimes. they're complicit. You know, that's the. even scarier bit of it. But I do. I'm an appalling optimist and I have to. apologize for it almost weekly on this. podcast. Sorry, everybody. But, you. know, I I do think that that kind of.

last wish of the dinosaur's tail. sometimes is a real fillip for. creativity and for where we go next in. culture. And we live in these absurd. sort of end times that we live in as. regards money and tech and art. I just. don't think it can last. I think. something else comes out of it that's. interesting and intriguing. And if I was. a 21-year-old um at home at the moment. who's a filmmaker or a writer or. a creator of any sort,

well, I know what I'd be thinking and I. know what I'd be creating. And that's. the next generation of art that we're. going to get. So, I. >> I agree. And I do think that there are. exciting things or we can see already. happening that co-opt the language of. these tech firms the disruptive. Yeah. There's some really interesting. disruptive creators in all sorts of. different parts of the creative. industries, but I'm not sure that. they're politically disruptive so far. Maybe that will come, but I think. they're creatively disruptive and I. think they're doing all sorts of other. interesting things, but I don't see it.

coming in a sort of political way and I. think that that is. hopefully that will follow. >> But we are 100% definitively in an era. where American popular culture is under. the yoke of about five people all of. whom are billionaires and all of whom. have quite thin skins. >> Yes, and it's interesting that so many. people are moving away. We should do. something on China maxing in a future. episode because lots of the cultural the. cultural pull is moving past even. somewhere like Seoul and it's just. moving east and I think that lots of.

interesting stuff or just compelling. stuff for young people Gen Z but. particularly Gen A is now coming from. China and I think that. >> because of because of all this nonsense. >> Where of course they have no censorship. >> [laughter]. >> So So yeah, more more good news. You. know, you're right. There's plenty of. course of optimism. >> Oh, the world. It never gets any better. really, does it? >> Well, you know. >> Yeah. I suppose medical science advances. >> Yes. >> Yeah, that's good. >> You know, and AR will be very helpful in. that I'm sure.

>> [laughter]. [sighs]. >> Should we go for a break? >> Let's. >> And after that we're going to be talking. about whether Andy Burnham is cool or. not. We're not going to be talking. politics, we're going to be talking. music. >> [music]. >> This episode is brought to you by the. Lloyds 5K house deposit. >> Lloyds are offering a 5K house deposit. which was last seen in 1996. What are. your entertainment memories of the. 1990s? >> I feel guilty talking about the 1990s.

because you look back and it was it was. such a golden era. >> We've never had it so good and we didn't. even realize cuz we were young and we. just thought we were entitled to it all. >> We absolutely took it for granted. Yeah, Britpop was absolutely in its pomp. Oasis playing to a quarter of a million. people. You had Blur. >> Sorry, Spice Girls and girl power. I'm. so sorry. >> Spice Girls, amazing movies at the. cinema, Trainspotting. I mean, it felt a. time of absolute optimism, but at the. time you just assume that was the way. that. >> But a very British type of optimism. >> Yeah. And part of the optimism, of. course, is that mortgages were more.

affordable and that is what Lloyds is is. dealing with right now. >> Yeah. Last seen 1996, Lloyds are now. offering 5K deposit mortgages to. first-time buyers. Search 5K first-time. buyer. >> 1996 average first-time buyer deposits. based on ONS data. Subject to status, your home may be repossessed if you. don't keep up repayments. Conditions. apply. >> [music]. >> Welcome back everybody. Now, listen, we move on from from that. fraught first half to ask a simple.

question, which is are we about to have. our first indie kid Prime Minister? Marina, for our overseas um. listeners, interesting developments in. British politics at the moment. >> Interesting and strangely familiar. We're going to have a new Prime. Minister. >> Yeah. >> We're recording this on Monday, but as. events advance, in due course, we will. have a new Prime Minister and unless. something absolutely catastrophic. happens, that Prime Minister will. probably be Andy Burnham. >> It will. We're not going to talk about. politics, don't worry about that. I have. a very specific thing that I wanted to.

explore, which is. is Andy Burnham cool? Now, I know you don't think anyone's cool. So, actually, what I'm going to say. >> true. You know that's not true. >> Are we about to have our first indie kid. Prime Minister? We've had all sorts of. Prime Ministers on Desert Island Disc. before and political leaders. Cameron. went on it. He chose a Smiths song. He. chose This Charming Man. He chose a. killer song. He chose a Radiohead song, Fake Plastic Trees. But he's not he. wasn't an indie kid. I mean, those are. the ones you would choose if, you know, you sat around with an advisor and. decided which songs to choose. He's.

talked about loving Eton Rifles by The. Jam as well, which must I mean, imagine. being Paul Weller and hearing that. Uh. Boris Johnson went on he just pressure. dropped by The Clash. >> Cameron at a party once like sort of. going to Tank or Malice. >> Oh, really? >> "Sorry, you're just not allowed to do. this.". >> I know. It's so yeah. >> You're banned off this. >> Uh Kim Wilde not recently went on um. Desert Island Discs. She had a couple of. songs from Hamilton. She had Don't Stop. 'Til You Get Enough by um Michael. Jackson. Weirdly, she had the Sunscreen.

by Baz Luhrmann as well as one of her. Desert Island Discs. But anyway, Andy Burnham. Andy Burnham makes quite a. lot of this kind of I'm just you know. this in indie kid from the north. Uh. is he posing or is that for real? Now, my evidence is. he did a wonderful piece I don't know if. people know The Quietus. The very fact. that he did this piece with The Quietus. at all tells us already he's got. bonafides. If you if you are looking for. something to subscribe to The Quietus, it's very very very good on music and. culture and it just. >> Yeah. >> introduces you to new things all the.

time. They do curated playlists. Anyway, they do they do a. a feature called Baker's Dozen where. people choose their favorite 13 albums. So, all the evidence we're going on for Andy. Burnham. is his 13 favorite albums and the. stories he tells on each one. Shall we. go through a few of them and see if Andy. Burnham. is actually cool or not. I've made my. mind up already, but uh we'll go through. them. He was born in the same year as. me, Andy Burnham, and the further you go. down this list the more obvious that. becomes. He's got Beastie Boys in there.

He's got The Smiths Hatful of Hollow, yeah, which was the year zero of turning. from a. kid who likes Culture Club into being an. indie kid. That's That's the album that. did it for everyone. Uh Andy Burnham's. got that on his list. But then he goes. to for This is where I start thinking, "Oh, this guy's for real." He goes to. Rum Sodomy and the Lash. >> Yeah. >> by The Pogues, their second album, which. I think is one of the greatest albums. ever written. He's He says he wants A. Sick Bed of Cuchulainn played played. at his funeral, which is uh uh.

I'd say it's a bold choice, Andy, but. you absolutely go for it. But, the. definitive thing with Rum Sodomy & the. Lash by the Pogues is if you are Andy. Burnham's special advisor, you wouldn't. say, "Oh, and by the way, at number. three, I put Rum Sodomy & the Lash by. the Pogues." That is. >> I know, I believe all of this. There's. no You can't talk about them in the way. that he has talked about them without. absolutely it being completely real and. authentic. We're going to come later to. whether even things that are authentic. can seem inauthentic in the world of. politics, but I 100% believe all of.

this. >> He goes for the Stone Roses. I mean, Andy Burnham could not be more northwest. if he tried. I mean, he's from. Liverpool, was an MP in Leigh, was. mayor of Manchester. So, I think I think. very cleverly, almost uniquely, manages. to have have a have a foot in both of. those camps. So, he goes for. >> this kind of. overarching northern identity that. somehow managed to bring them together. Yeah. [clears throat]. >> Imagine if he'd done that for for for a. southern identity. Imagine how much the. country would absolutely hate him. They'd go, "Oh, this guy goes, 'You know.

what? I'm a little bit Guildford and a. little bit Godalming.'". That's right. And that's Andy. So, the story when he talks about the. Stone Roses, which is his fourth album, which again, you can't be an indie kid. in any way whatsoever and not have the. first Stone Roses album on there. But, he talks about. how he used to go to the Hacienda. >> Yeah. But, on the Thursday, not the. Friday. >> which was student night. Saturday was. like the like like the big rave night. And he says, "You know, I I was very. much Thursday night. I was a lager guy.". They said, "Did you take ecstasy?" He. said, "You know what? I genuinely I'm.

not being a politician. I genuinely. didn't." By the way, we are about to get. our first indie kid Prime Minister, I. think. It'll be a while before we get. our first rave Prime Minister. But, that'll be next. But, he said he said. >> I think you'll find David Cameron went. to a few parties. >> [laughter]. >> Yeah, listen. I. I wouldn't dignify him with rave. >> There's no more indie statement than I. saw the Fall at the Hacienda. It's. absolutely impossible. He also said, and. I don't I don't think. there's two words in this put together. I don't think a single British Prime. Minister has ever said before. And that.

is, he said, talking about the Hacienda, there would be a few members of Inspiral. Carpets hanging around. I don't think. anyone who's ever been British Prime. Minister has ever referenced Inspiral. Carpets. >> No. >> before. He also talks about. meeting Tony Wilson when he was up in. Manchester and how they developed quite. a close relationship. And and Tony. Wilson, before Andy Burnham was the King of the. North, was probably the King of the. North. And I saw Andy Burnham described. the other day as. Harold Wilson meets Tony Wilson. Which I thought was very nice. He then.

goes only here's here's where here's. where we know for a fact that we are. going to have an indie kid Prime. Minister. His next album is George Best. by The Wedding Present. And again, to find out the age of a tree, you cut. it down and count the rings. If you want. to know the age of a certain man or. woman in this country, and they say one. of my favorite albums is. Wedding Present is George Best by The. Wedding Present, then they were born in. 1970. You can almost almost to the month. work it out. By the way, a great album. He then goes on to talking of great.

albums, The La's by The La's. Liverpool. band, but but but to be someone who. recognizes that The La's aren't just. There She Goes, and to recognize they. released one of the great debut albums. in the history of music. We should do. like a a bonus on The La's cuz they're. amazing. >> Billy Bragg. >> Yes. >> That's an interesting choice. William. Bragg, that the album he's gone for is. says Upfield is his favorite song cuz I. mean he's very polarizing. And again, if. you were Andy Burnham's. spad, you'd be saying, "Oh, I don't. know. Are you sure about Billy Bragg?".

But one of our most tender and beautiful. songwriters. >> Yeah. >> I think. >> He might have thought, "Chuck one out. for the Corbynites.". >> Yeah, exactly. Radiohead, OK Computer. I. love all the way through the century in. The Quietus. It's so good because he's. saying, "Yeah, I saw Um, I saw Radiohead. at Glastonbury." He said, "It's just. after I lost the leadership election to. uh to Corbin. and you realize that this music which is. sort of sort of the the music of your. kind of teen years or 20s or you know. literally these people who've been in.

the middle of like the hugest stories in. British politics are sitting there. listening to Karma Police. and you're thinking wow, I mean those. lyrics must hit a bit different if. you're trying to run the country. Strokes he goes for there's a few more. modern things Big Thief. capacity which is an amazing album. there's New Order but I. the one I really really loved is The. Courteeners and Falcon said The. Courteeners are huge you know one of. those bands that the north absolutely. and they're like the gods of the north. and he said when he was running for.

Manchester mayor him and Steve Rotheram. who was um. mayor of Liverpool they went to see The. Courteeners and he said there's this. song where he says the lyrics are I'm. only a paper boy from the northwest but. I can scrub up wearing my Sunday best. and he said that really it felt like me. cuz I was you know that sounds like me. so we were sort of belting this song out. and it really felt made us feel proud to. be from the north and you know it's just. great guitar music but that is from a. song called this interview is about two. years ago that's from a song called Take. Over the World and Andy Burnham said I.

love that song and it brings back. memories but sadly I didn't go on to. take over the world well look at you now. Andy. >> Well this is a suggestion that you can. never be cool as a politician. >> Yes It's an impossibility. >> I think it is a you can be charismatic. and that really matter and you know. someone like David Runciman has written. really interesting on politicians who. are sort of required to be a form of. celebrity. but also still be trustworthy it's. interesting actually when I was talking. to James Canagarajah about people. celebrities becoming politicians what we.

talked about one of the things we talked. about is that. as we cuz we cycle through these people. so quickly in our politicians. celebrities are these kind of great. constants in public life and so in many. ways they are seen as more trustworthy. than politicians. And what Andy Burnham. has actually genuinely tried to do is. create an outer outsider status for. himself, which by the way, I think. coolness almost all It's very, very hard. to be cool when you are the figurehead. of an a system. You you you know, being. an outsider is cool. It involves not.

having to compromise. and to be able to dream impossible. dreams. Whereas the politics I suppose. is the art of the possible and all about. compromising. So, you can't really. >> can't be cool. But one thing you can do, and again you talked to James about it, one thing that is absolutely key is can. you be authentic? And I thought the interesting thing. going through this list is So, Andy. shows has this kind of image of himself. as as you know, "Oh, I'm just a normal. guy and I drink lager and this is the. sort of music I like." This interview in. The Quietus and this list in The Quietus.

absolutely 100% screams to me. authenticity. >> I completely agree with you. I think. it's interesting and actually it's quite. a niche thing and. we're talking about it because we love. all those things. We love music and. things like that. The more mainstream things that. politicians will try and and even. authentically attach themselves to. I. mean, if you look at Keir Starmer, he. plays five-a-side football once a week. He really loves football. He is a. completely authentic football fan. He. cannot basically hardly even talk about. football because it's.

Football is. And also we're in the middle of the. World Cup, is really interesting. Cass. Horowitz, who is a sort of. comms guru, who was a comms guru for. Rishi Sunak, um he did a post on. LinkedIn just before the World Cup. started saying, "Politicians, please. just don't post about the World Cup this. summer." Saying and he said that talking. about football has become the ultimate. high-stakes authenticity trap. Because. the public immediately assumes it's a. calculated focus group play to. neutralize your elite narrative and. prove that you are a regular person. And.

it's really. Honestly, anytime, even politicians who. absolutely love football, you'll know it. to happen much more. Just try and stay. away from it to some degree because it. just always looks like band wagoning. And strange as it may seem, we literally. do not know need to know or. certainly don't care what cabinet. minister thinks about football. I. noticed Farage was doing he is by the. way I want to talk about him actually. cuz I think he's in terms of a his. cultural hinterland I believe it is I. mean I talk about the tech.

I've talked about the tech barons not. having one. He has absolutely nothing. I. once interviewed him and just honestly. for something to I think I've talked. about this in the podcast before but I'm. going to mention it again cuz I think it. is so weird. I said to him. what's your favorite you know what's. your favorite film? And he he literally just couldn't what. was clear is not that he couldn't think. what his favorite film would be or what. would be a good film for to be his. favorite film. He couldn't think of the. title of a film. And in the end he said what you know. that got the person and then he. remembered Four Weddings and a Funeral. but he for some reason he obviously. didn't want to say that so he said you.

know who the guy who did that so I said. Richard Curtis. I was like Love. Actually. He's like yeah Love Actually. I was thinking. there's just no way that your favorite. film is Love Actually. There's just no. way. But also the fact that you couldn't. even think of it. I mean just say The. Great Escape or The Dam Busters or. something. >> Bridge on the River Kwai. >> Come on. >> That's easy. >> He literally couldn't think of one. I. believe he has zero cultural hinterland. at all. I can't imagine There's a big I. think there's some discourse about like. why is Neil deGrasse Tyson What would. What would he authentically choose? You're telling me that guy ever listens.

to music ever watches anything. He. doesn't exist. He doesn't have that If. you cannot name a film as in you. literally can't think of the name of a. film. It's ridiculous. And so. for him I think the idea of having. whereas for someone like Obama Now Obama. you knew had a mega cultural hinterland. and they became sort of curators even. during the time he would put out stuff. of what he was listening to. Was he cool? I don't know. I mean some. he was probably the person who most. people thought had had as a politician. had something closer to cool than anyone.

else. >> isn't cool and think he quite is, then. it is impossible for a politician. >> Yeah. >> to be cool. So, his Yeah, his curated. music lists are always extraordinary. It's like I think the most recent one. has Kendrick Lamar, Chance the Rapper, uh Rowan, Rosalía, Burna Boy is on. there. I mean, you know, absolutely. but again, so beautifully. curated, you kind of think, "Ah, is. there more than one hand in this?" I. don't know. There's There's There's a. little bit of everything. I quite like. Andy Burnham's list cuz his They're sort. of not a little bit of everything. >> No. >> in there. It's really just kind of know.

this, and then this, and then this, and. then this. Um but um yeah, I think that. if Barack Obama is not cool, then no. one's ever going to be cool and be a. politician. >> Some people found him cool all the way. through. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> But and of course, once the. you know, bits that people couldn't get. quite so much on board with, like. extrajudicial killings and so on, have. faded into the background and worse has. replaced it or whatever, then people. have have a sort of glow about him. But. he could deliver I he could deliver.

lines brilliantly. So, when he did. things like the White House. Correspondents Dinner, and he would do. It was like watching a stand-up. He. obviously was a great public speaker, but I remember there was one time when I. think he did literally just drop the mic. at the end of it, and you're like, "Okay, I'm. >> Yes. >> really extremely professional and well. done.". >> But I do think again, we're not This is. not. talking about politics at all, but I do. think that the one thing you need in the. current media climate is authenticity. And I just thought it was interesting. looking at that list of albums and. thinking, "Well, certainly in this area, he has an authenticity. He has a He has. an ability to talk with an.

authenticity." He has And don't forget, some people just aren't authentic. Some. people never find out who they are. And. this is a guy who does seem to have a. good idea of who he is. And if you can. get that across, then it will serve him. very well. >> The last boss is the bond market, so I. can't wait to find out who wins. >> I Do you know what? Genuinely, I'd put. my money on the Lars. Knowingly maybe, cuz I think I can. absolutely see him. Actually, on that. album, IOU, there's a lot about uh. monetary policy in there. If you only know the Lars from There She. Goes, um then my god, have a have a. listen to that whole album. It's just a.

work of genius. He disowned it. Lee. Mavers, he just can't he went through. every great producer there was and just. said, "No, this is. all terrible. This is all This is not. what I'm hearing in my head." And even. now says that that album is awful. But, um he is wrong about that. No, it's it's. it's an extraordinary record. And that. authenticity means I can definitively. answer the question, are we about to. have our first indie kid prime minister? Yes, I believe we are. He has He has all. the bonafides. He has the credentials. I'm not, by the way, making a value. judgment and saying it's a good thing. I'm just saying as a as a 1980s and '90s.

indie kid myself, he is definitely one. >> It's a true thing. >> It's a true thing. >> Okay, moving on from Andy Burnham, Quentin Tarantino, I love it when he. pops up. >> Yes. >> Has made another. foray into the discourse to say that. there have been no good movies. This was. a couple of weeks ago he said there's no. no good movies since the lockdown, since. the the pandemic. Um and he said that he. they were all defined movies since then. by flaws, implausibilities, audience. pandering, miscast performers, or just.

plain stupid okay? I personally. love that he's out there talking about. it. I I love all the positions he takes. He always sparks something and we'll get. on to what he sparks in a minute. He. does always spark something. He, you. know, he's only he's always said I'm. only going to make 10 films. I. personally wish he'd do more. I. absolutely love it. You know what he's. doing next there, which I could not be. more here for. >> Yes, a play. >> He's doing Yeah, he's going to write and. direct a West End farce set in the 1830s. called The Popinjay Cavalier. >> Yeah. >> Um and he's doing it with Sonia. Friedman, the fantastic theater. producer, and also Sony. So, there's.

some suggestion that Sony Pictures. There's some suggestion that, you know, if it takes off, then maybe he'll turn. that into his final film. >> And it And it's for real. And they're. doing table reads at the moment, as we. speak. So, it is it is definitely for. real. It's definitely happening. >> so I literally will I am all over that, okay? And I love that he's has takes. these strong positions, whatever you. think about him. um, and he's certainly. he's they he puts stuff out there. Um, I. don't think he's right. I mean, you. know, look at what's happening in horror. there's been lots of good things.

>> By the way, he doesn't think he's right. either. >> right. It's just some stupid he. said, but yeah. But James said it going. to the theaters. Um, we're having a sort. of correction from franchise IP in the. way that all of these things he would. like. Um, and I think that streaming in. a way TV and obviously lots of people. migrated to television, but television. is now so so expensive paradoxically. that, you know, your a series is going. to cost I don't know what 120 million. you've got to make lots of them. But in. a way people I I think it's an. interesting time in a time of flux and I.

disagree that there have been no good. films since the pandemic. >> Yeah. >> Um, do we have to do this top three? Which I do not. >> a top three of of of my favorite films. since the since the pandemic. Yes. Do. you have Do you have a top three? >> I do. One is a bit of a cheat, but uh, yes. >> Uh, cheat how? Well, listen, we'll we'll. get to it. >> [laughter]. >> Okay, number three. >> Okay, and. n- number three. >> You see, I have to say the numbers now. just because I absolutely don't trust. you. >> Steve and now is nope. The which I it. had a terrible title,

um, but it's really it it's it is in the. horror genre. It's Jordan Peele. It's. really it's actually really good and. it's a shame. it's not completely what it is, but it's. all about um, us not filming things and. not being able to look away even when. it's dangerous. It's really it's really. good and it's so it epitomizes that. >> [sighs and gasps]. >> Number two, I really absolutely loved. The Souvenir Part Two and I this is a. bit of a small one because lots of. people won't have seen this, but if you. haven't seen Joanna Hogg's work, The. Souvenir itself is amazing. Um, it's. this is a sequel to it. Um, it's a sort.

of semi-autobiographical story about a. young filmmaker and The Souvenir Part. Two is amazing. And number one, I am going to say Bob. and Timers and I know that's unfair, but. what I want to say is. >> that's fine. That's okay. >> But it's because what it showed us is. look at this extraordinary Look at this. extraordinary thing. It is a possibility. that rose up organically as a. phenomenon, but here is someone making a. film about something extreme I mean, it's Christopher Nolan. The The director is the star. He's. making something extremely, you know,

you're making a film about the Manhattan. Project. And then also, here is a movie. effectively made in the service of a toy. company, but nonetheless manages to be. kind of staggeringly original and cool. and bring masses of people to theaters. So, I would say that both of those and. the fact the phenomenon of them being. yoked together was very, very cool, and. it was it showed you of all of a whole. range of possibilities within. filmmaking. >> Uh so, Nope, Souvenir Part Two, and. Barbie and Oppenheimer. >> in some order, but I'll do it in that. order. >> Well, that's the order you've done it, so that's So, your favorite film was.

Barbie and Oppenheimer. >> Okay, I'm going to say that. >> Of those three. >> But but because of what it represented, yes. But actually, probably Souvenir Part. Two. >> I'm going to give you three sort of. comedies in a way, but I mean not I mean. all sort of bitter sweet comedies. Rye. Lane is my number three, the Raine Allen. Miller movie. The sort of South London. rom-com with David Johnson. Written by. Nathan Byron and Tom Melia. It's a. really, really, really funny, cute, charming, beautifully made. movie that you just think, "Oh, how.

lovely to see something so perfectly. formed." I've I've yet to meet anyone. who didn't enjoy it. Number two, uh I'm. going to go for The Holdovers, the. Alexander Payne movie Paul Giamatti, where he's he's sort of I think it's set. in the early 1970s, and he's a teacher. who has to look after all the kids who. >> At a boarding school. >> at a boarding school who don't go home. for Christmas. In fact, it's just one. kid in the end. And it's again, really, really, really. uh beautiful movie. Uh and number one, it won't surprise. you. I haven't gone for Barbie and. Oppenheimer. I've gone for The Ballad of.

Wallace Island, um. Tom Burton and Tim Key. It's such a. beautiful, funny film. But those There's. three films there, none of which outstay. their welcome, all of which have just. beautiful writing, beautiful. performances. Yeah. And again, I absolutely get what. Tarantino says because he he he has a. very visceral approach to to to film. making. He wants something new and. spectacular, something that shocks him. and surprises him. And none of these. movies would would do that to him. But. all of these movies, if you're a writer. or if you have any sort of love in your. heart, I think you would enjoy all three.

of them. >> Okay, so now to get on to what it spot. Obviously, the minute he says something. like this, everyone's like, "Great, this. is a hook for us to publish lots of. lists of things that are actually good. like we've just done." Um but [laughter]. what I want to say about that and the. this new idea of these lists coming out. all the time, this is now like a genre, a vertical. It is an entire permanently. reiterating editorial product. Really interesting appointment very. recently, the New York Times has. appointed someone called Gilbert Cruz to. be the head of canon. Now, he used to.

run the book review section. There's There's a very small Some people. say, "Oh, maybe he didn't do so well on. the book review section. Is he being. sort of moved aside?" But actually, it this is a whole new job. They've. never had a head of canon before. Now, in terms of what is canon, >> It's like the Civil War. >> Yeah, I know. Yeah, the. The word itself has been invented. sort of it's gone over many, many times. It started actually in the 1300s where. canon meant the collection of books. of the Bible that were accepted by the.

Christian church as genuine and. inspired. By the 20th century, it sort. of meant the classics. Um. and fandoms talk about canon, you know, the the the sort of body of works taking. place in that particular fictional world. that they can't, you know. And that. started really The Manchester Guardian. apparently in 1933 had said, "Oh, just. because a story contains the word. 'elementary, my dear Watson', it doesn't. mean it's part of the official Sherlock. Holmes canon." And you know, you've got. all these fandoms to what Star Wars is. this canon, is this just off canon, whatever it is. But um The New York.

Times has appointed someone for this to. do this job permanently, which seems. odd. But these lists now are form a huge. amount of what you read online, and. we had to We used to have lists. They. didn't exist in the same way. We would. have power lists, you know, people do a. media power list like once a year, but. it was kind of niche. It was almost. industry, or you'd get trade. publications doing them, or you'd get, you know, the Sunday Times rich list. Then, you'd have the listical era, BuzzFeed and all those sort of things. Um, but it is now one of the most.

important things in digital media, and. it's happened very, very quickly. And. you'll notice this happens all the time. And what it's really What they are. really saying, the New York Times, is. that the most successful products, cultural products that they produce, are. not criticism any longer. They are these. giant definitive lists, these. proprietary rankings. of books, or films, or restaurants, or. whatever it is. >> I'm all in favor. >> Yeah, and it's become a huge market. movie. You know, you they these books. books if once they say, you know, the.

top 50 books of the century, or whatever. it is, they reprint with that on the cover. Um, they're not just quick listicals. You'll. notice that something's changed. It's. not just a kind of quick thing. You've. got to get buy-in from all your biggest. critics, and from, you know, say you're. say you're doing movies, you get. directors to cut it, and you and you. say, "This was the panel that chose. this.". >> Yeah. >> But, what you're creating there is. something First of all, they're. obviously saying this is one of our most. important business products that we. create. Um, and what you're saying as.

well is it this is an evergreen piece of. updateable content. Um, they are mass. market content format now, and they do. so much better than reviews. Every time. The Guardian does this a lot. You'll. notice that they have, you know, the 10. best the 20 best somethings ranked. And. those always perform incredibly well. Furthermore, they last longer. They're. sort of evergreen. They then they sit on. your on your site, and people come back. and back to them, and they use them as a. form of curation. And that thing that we. keep talking about taste, and how taste.

is becoming in such a sort of noisy and. crowded world really important. If you. the these kind of big legacy media. brands are moving increasingly into. these things where they can you can keep. updating the list and you can change it. and it can become but these are the most. significant cultural products they. produce not criticism and reviews. anyway. >> Yeah, because you know, we have we have. enough we have a. enough canon now in various different. areas that. the new has become slightly less. interesting and less important and. actually just constant ways of dipping.

into the old I think is fascinating. I. did that Guardian top 100 books thing. where you had to do your you know, 10. favorite books and of it when when when. they put it out. the comments underneath were just they. go oh my god where's this? Where's X? And actually funny enough the Guardian. has done it in quite a smart way. They. got loads and loads of writers Stephen. King all sorts of people did it. And not. only could you look at the top 100 but. you could click on any person you wanted. and read their top 10 and read their. comments about it. So people say where's. X? Where's Y? You think well there's go. and look in some of the list. You don't.

have to just look at the top 100 that's. literally just you know, everyone's. votes are put together. That's why. Middlemarch is number one. I know you. think it's boring but like a lot of. writers for whatever reason don't think. it's boring. And like my top 10. I have Middlemarch on it but there was. only two of my top 10 were in the top. 100. So but you can click on mine and. look through my favorite 10 books. And. you know, that's useful to people. I. know I know I mean I'm someone who will. always buy the book that's out this week. but most people want to look back. through 200 years of literature and go.

what shouldn't I read? That's you know, that when when the New. York Times did it some best books of the. 21st century. and you know, I looked through that and. that's where I discovered. Lonesome Dove or that's when I I. realized oh that's I really should read. Lonesome Dove and I. I've been banging on about how brilliant. that is. >> Yeah. >> That was it funny enough in my top 10. and someone said to me why is everyone. talking about Lonesome Dove all of a. sudden? I think well because it was in. that. >> Yeah. It's a really, really good way of. rediscovering things. It's a really good.

way of discovering things that that that. that maybe kind of passed you by a bit. And if you look at writers like, you. know, Barbara Pym, for example, who's. been, you know, rediscovered her her brilliant. things for the second time. But, you. know, a lot of that is from lists. A lot. of that is from people saying, you know, what are the 10 most overlooked novels? Who are the 10. writers we should read? >> not everyone wants to say The Great. Gatsby. Sometimes people like to say. >> Yeah, you want you want to recommend. things that you think actually or maybe. maybe people won't have. won't know this. I mean, I love a list. >> stays so gold for the publishers who are.

publishing these things. >> Because people got people say, what are. the best books of all time? That's. >> me out here? I Yeah. So, it's really. interesting that these that these lists. have actually become enormous and huge. and will be I think we'll that's not. going to be the last head of canon you. see. >> Yeah, well, funnily enough, he sent me. an email which I thought was spam. So, Gilbert Cruz is the guy's name. >> Cruz. >> Yeah, asking about the best crime novels. of all time. >> All right. >> and I didn't reply. Gilbert, I apologize. I had not realized that. But, also leads.

me on neatly to I'm doing some bonus. episodes which are essentially what is. the best ever. >> I love this. >> US sitcom? What's the best ever UK game. show? But, I'm I'm doing it in my. traditional, you know, World Cup of. >> Yes. >> thing. I'll have a couple of guests on. We'll talk about, you know, all the best. things there possibly are and and and. find a winner. The first the first one. we're doing is US sitcoms. What's the. best ever. US sitcom? And you know, because because. the the. great James Burrows passed away this. week who directed Friends and Frasier. and Cheers. I mean, and did more than.

direct those things as well. So, we're. going to find. John Robinson, Maisie Adam. are joining me. We're going to find the. greatest US sitcom. That one I think. we're going to make free to everyone. >> Yes. I'm going for that. I'm going. for that. >> Yes, I think it's going to be a. an awful lot of fun. Listen, I mean, you. know, we talked about authenticity just. now. I cannot be authentic without. saying I love a list." I love putting. things against each other and seeing. what wins. >> Well, so does the market. >> Yeah, so does the World Cup. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Recommendations?

>> Um do you know what uh. Ingrid is filming at the moment and. she's she is. uh. I can't say what in, but she's being an. astronaut. And so we've been watching. >> [laughter]. >> we've been watching lots of astronaut. things just to see what they're like. when they're in thing when when they're. uh in their craft. And we watched Return. to Space, which is about the growth of. SpaceX. And I absolutely. loved it. It's really, really. extraordinary. There's quite a lot of. Elon Musk in it. And actually there's. quite a lot of Elon Musk acting like a.

human being. in it and showing some emotion, uh but. also sort of showing. what it is that he's achieved there. But. the main thing about it is is the. astronauts and the people behind the. scenes, the technicians, uh and the. people who who work on this stuff. I I. just it makes you realize what an. extraordinary endeavor. >> Yeah. >> and what a team you need to do that. So. I I absolutely love that Return to Space. uh and that's on Netflix. It's I I I. thought it was absolutely fascinating. I. loved it. How about you?

>> My god, I can't believe the pettiness of. mine compared to that. Okay. Okay. >> [laughter]. >> I want to recommend a trailer which I. sent to you on your holiday and I. sincerely hope you watched. Uh. Please can you just everyone watch the. trailer for a new National Geographic. documentary, docudrama maybe? >> Yeah. >> In uh which I think it's going to be on. Disney Plus in which Tom Hiddleston is. playing time detective to go back and. solve the mystery of the final hours of. Pompeii. I think it's called Pompeii. Hours of Time. I'm going to find a way. of making you do a full item on it.

because it's if if you are a ironic. admirer of Tom Hiddleston's intensity as. I am, I there is so much to enjoy in. this trailer that I just want you know. do your homework, guys, and then we can. talk and I'm just going to find a way of. forcing it. And the other thing I would. like to recommend. >> You're not just going to recommend a. trailer. >> No, I'm going to I'm going to recommend. Roy Keane being a Roy Keane's rant on. with he's asked by Gary Neville on the. overlap um. that that a podcaster um.

put something into say football room 101. and he chose a WAGs who put their. husband's names on the on the back of. the shirt and then photograph themselves. which it's so special. Judge Roy Keane. has allowed that for the children of. players. Be absolutely. He was like, "We know who you're married. to. You'll be separated within a year.". >> [laughter]. >> Right. >> But I know you Roy Keane, I love you. It's just it's very special. >> Roy Keane is sort of the Quentin. Tarantino of football, isn't he? >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. Um so our bonus episode this week, Marina. >> is the final episode of the vibe shift I.

the series I did with James Can I go. sorry minute it's about the sort of end. of peak woke and where things are going. now. It's really interesting. >> And if you want to be a member at the. rest of us entertainment.com, you get. all those bonus episodes, you get um. ad-free listening, all of that stuff. As. always, you do not have to be a member. Um and for everyone else, we will see. you for a Q&A on Thursday. >> See you on Thursday. >> [music].

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