The Comedians Crazy For Saudi Cash

Hello and welcome to the rest is. entertainment with me Marina Hyde. >> and me Richard Osman. Hello Marina. >> Hello Richard. How are you? >> Yeah I'm I'm very well. Have you had a. nice week? >> I have had a nice week. I had a very. busy week but I have actually noticed. Richard that despite that busyness the. Thursday Murder Club movie is number one. in the whole world. It. >> Listen, let's not um let's not. >> please. can you talk a little bit about it. later? Teeny bit. teeny bit. >> Yeah, I can talk about how the numbers.

work and what you need. Yes. Yeah, exactly. >> We'll take you to your happy place with. that later. No, but it's it's it's Yeah, it's lovely. But yeah, we we we can talk. about that at the end maybe cuz we got. more interesting things to talk about. I. think starting with something I think is. very interesting which I'm not sure that. many people know about. >> and I think that the people involved. with it would love to keep it that way. We're talking about the Riyad Comedy. Festival, which is a comedy festival in. Saudi Arabia, where. >> I have to say, I have never seen a.

lineup of comedians like this. It's an. unbelievable bill. So, let's talk about. that. >> We're going to talk about Travis Kelce. Who is he? Where did he come from? >> Perhaps who are the greatest power. couple in the history of entertainment? And are Taylor and Travis about to uh. take that throne. >> And we're also going to talk about the. incredible financial afterlife of. Michael Jackson. um you know there's a. um a musical that's playing very well. and there's also a movie coming which. has been mired in particular. difficulties but we can talk about all.

of that cuz that one's an interesting. one. >> Yeah. Now talking about people making. money that perhaps they shouldn't be. The Riad Comedy Festival. >> The Riad Comedy Festival runs from the. 26th of September to October the 9th. >> Tickets still available? >> Tickets still I I assume. Uh tickets. still available. Now the lineup, as I. say, is pretty unbelievable. There are. more than 50 top comedians. It has buil. itself as the world's biggest comedy. festival. Whatever biggest means in as a. metric, but it may be. >> I certainly think it's it's it's the.

world's most lucrative comedy festival. >> Oh yeah, >> I think Edinburgh or Montre might both. go. I think I think maybe we have more. comics. >> Yeah, it's definitely the most. lucrative. Okay. The bill includes but. is not limited to Dave Chappelle, Kevin. Hart, Jimmy Carr, Pete Davidson, Chris. Tucker, Russell Peters, Hannibal Beress, Bill Burr, Nesh Patel, Om Jalilly, Tom. Sigura, Aziz andsari, Lu C, Andrew. Schultz, there are a couple of chicks. who've made it out there. >> Whitney Cummings.

>> Well, they haven't made it out. Yeah. Yeah. Jessica Ken. Um, there's a couple. You'll laugh your head off, won't you, Richard? You will laugh your head off. I. think as a little bit of background we. should say that we talked a lot about um. Saudi investment in um things. This is. part of the Saudi push for sort of. cultural expansion and to. vision 2030 strategy it's called. We. talked about the Red Sea uh film. festival which is now in its year and is. attracting bigger and bigger people. every year. Reportedly Bob Iger turned.

down Saudi as the location for the next. Disney park which is now going to be in. Abu Dhabi. you know, they were obviously. in that mix. And the Riad season. festival, it's got comedy, sport, um, culture, hospitality, all of these. things. Anyway, all of this stuff takes. place in a place called And the Comedy. Festival is going to take place in a. place in Riad called Boulevard City. insert generic name. Oh, no, they have. Um, it's like a sort of big. entertainment district and it's got. multiple theaters, stages like outside. our auditoriums and a central thing.

called Square, which is inspired by Time. Square. I mean insert more generic name. >> What do we think about people taking. that Saudi money? It's not completely. cut and dried. I mean, >> it's funny, isn't it? I don't think it. is. It's I am not I think actually just. broadening it out from that very very. specific geographical region. I'm not a. huge fan of comedians taking paid for. gigs by from governments, even. autocracies, you know, even even. autocracies.

>> Here's my absolute starting point with. this. If you go over to Saudi Arabia, if. you people do corporates, all sorts of. things all the time, the money's right. and you're comfortable with who that. corporate is, go and do it. >> And an awful lot of people on this list. are not hand ringing. They are not the. sort of people who said, "Oh, I won't do. this. I won't do that." They are people. who have always sort of done anything. for the highest price. Okay? Which, you. know, that's if if that's who you are, that's who you are. I think that the. money that's being paid for it and the. potential audience size there is over. there, you have to accept that you are.

not being paid for punters coming. through the door. You're not being paid. for a promoter to make money. So you are. you are being paid by the Saudi. government. I I think you have to. there's no and by the again no judgment, >> but if you're going over there, the. reason you're paying being paid that. much money is to promote Saudi Arabia. >> Not because you're going to bring in the. ticket sales. you're worth it for. something else. >> Exactly. So, you're there to do PR for. the Saudi government. We can argue about. whether that's a a good thing to be.

taking money for or not, but I think. that has to be the starting point. And a. lot of the comedians have come out and. spoken about why they're doing it. >> Yeah. Because they all have they all. either have podcasts or go on podcasts. the whole time. >> to talk about it. >> Yeah. But it hasn't bubbled through, I. don't think, to the mainstream at all. And I don't think people really know. this is particularly happening. If you you know listen to lots of these. kind of humor podcasts or you listen. some of them have talked about them on. really big podcasts. >> but they're keeping it relatively quiet. I think it's fair to say for various. reasons if I can talk about the general.

thinking of the comedians who are doing. it Jim Jeff he's huge in the states he. has said cuz of course the murder of. Jamal Kosogi is the real sort of. lightning rod for Saudi human rights. abuses. >> this is the this is the journalist who. was murdered in 2018 dismembered in the. Saudi consulate in Istanul Oh, Jim Jeff. says, "People have been going, oh, how. dare you go over there after, oh, they. killed a reporter." That was the big. one. There's been a reporter who they. killed. You don't think our government. kills people? Oh, I think Jeffrey. Epstein was bumped off. You know what I. mean? He said, you know, you can you can.

be angry about how they treat their. people, how they treat that reporter. You can be angry at golfers that live. golf, but we are basically freedom of. speech machines being sent over there. They have not at one stage asked to see. our material. Bracket citation needed. They haven't asked. Uh so he he is a. freedom of speech machine. >> He talks so much about they've got all. these edgy people, isn't it? >> Chris D. Stefano who's playing he he. justified it as well. He said he he's. talking to another comic who said he he. wasn't going to do it. And D Stefano.

says well I didn't want to do it either. I was contemplating. I was like maybe. not. And then Jasmine his wife was like. well we're getting married. We got the. house. Who knows? We'll probably sell it. again. I was like I can't do it. And. then she was like you're going to take. the [ __ ] money. No mention of Jamar. Shogi at any point in that conversation. Well, Bill Burr has done a lot of. routines about people working ordinary. normal people working for crappy. corporations and saying you don't have. to you don't have to do this. I mean. this seems very much you don't have to. for Bill Burr as well to engage with the. first point.

>> Yes. >> Last year I ended up having dinner in. one of New York's sort of most sort of. exclusive gentleman's clubs with a very. much. >> You live a life. >> Yeah. >> With a with a much older gentleman. with. a much older. >> Long story short, we are now married. >> With a much older Is this Prince Andrew? >> No, it's not. It's a much older American. guy, very eminent. And it was really. interesting being in this club in the. first place because he was saying to me, David Cameron was still just at that.

moment, foreign secretary, and he was. saying, "Oh, last week, you know, your. foreign secretary, he was in here with. the these people from the Chinese. government in this tiny little room.". And I was like, "I see." I said, "It's. interesting all the things that go on in. gentleman's clubs, isn't it?" Anyway, and he was we ended up talking about. Saudi Arabia and he said at a certain. point, "Oh, you know, it's it's such a. shame really what's happened." And I. said, "Oh my god, I know you chop up one. journalist and then and then he just. looked at me and he raised his eyebrow. and I said, "Oh, I see you're saying we.

do things like that or we we just don't. but we just don't get we just don't get. caught or we're less amateur or. whatever." And then he just raised the. eyebrow again and I thought, well, given. who you are, you would most certainly. know about this. >> But that is the Jim Jeff point and it's. the point of lots of these people, which. is if you live in any sort of commercial. world, then you are doing a deal with. the devil almost all the time. And just. because people are jumping on one. particular issue doesn't mean that. they're not being hypocrites. If you.

want to read all of these, by the way, there's a really good newsletter called. Humorism that is run by a guy called. Seth Simons, and it's sort of about the. I don't say it's the dark side of the. comedy business, but it is. And he's. collected all of what people have been. saying about the Riad um comedy. festival. And then like Tim Dylan was. talking saying this is a good one. He. said, "Oh, my agent calls me says I. don't know if we should do this because. this is an endorsement of Saudi Arabia.". And I said, "Well, okay, but let's be. frank. I'm living in a country right now. that is endorsing another country's. behavior that I don't agree with. I.

mean, all entertainment money is effing. blood money one way or another. Discuss. I I mean, no, obviously not all. entertainment. It's not all blood money. A lot of it. is. >> Oh, yeah. I mean, I've heard what they. say about Hazard Games, but you can't do. it today. >> I don't know how they're funding the new. Balamorei, but uh certainly they're. being opaque about it. >> Yeah. There's a lot of countercultural. comedians who I think have been uh. especially in America who've been told. for the last 5 10 years you can't do. this you can't say this all that the. stuff all the cliche stuff of you can't.

say anything in comedy anymore and they. have absolutely quite rightly said you. can say whatever you like in comedy and. I do you know you choose your moments. you judge your audience so I say. whatever I like but having been lectured. to for such a long time and having been. on the right side of some of those. arguments and the wrong side of some of. those arguments Actually, if you are. presented with a thing like this, you do. kind of go, "Ah, but you know, I always. do. I always do the thing that's not. expected of me. I always do. I always do. the counterintuitive thing, you know, because I believe in free speech. We. should be allowed to do what we want.

>> You can't put me in a box. I'll just. climb out of that box. >> You can't you can't put me in a box.". And some of those comedians will. definitely believe that for sure. For. some of them, it's quite convenient. I. mean, listen, they've got a call. They're going to go somewhere for 48. hours and be paid an awful lot of money. I mean, an awful lot of money. And so if. you can find even the slightest. justification as to why that might be. okay, which is human rights are abused. everywhere. I think it's important that. I spread freedom of speech to a new. group of people, then then you do. Then.

that's what you do. But. >> sidebar on those the idea of cultural. boycotts because a lot of people say I. don't agree with cultural boy. I mean, I. always find the person who's saying I. don't agree with cultural boycots is. someone like Sting who's just been paid. like a million dollars to appear for. some I remember he he did one Sting for. the uh former USB dictator's daughter. >> That sounds like a Gilbert Sullivan. song. The former the former USB. dictator's daughter. >> Yeah. If you could fit in funny rhymes. for boiling your enemies, child slave. armies, killing your own people if they.

protest, then 100% it's a Gilbert and. >> a second. What was the second one? But Sting, I remember saying when people. found out that he'd done it, >> yeah, >> he said, "Oh, you know, I don't believe. in cultural boycots." It's like, okay, but I want to spread my artistic ideas. It's like, yes, but I don't think within. the palace you are spreading your. artistic ideas. And they they had one. sort of publicly open concert and I. think that the ticket price was. something like 45 times the average as. monthly salary. So, you are still. involved in a cultural boycott. And.

there will be a lot of these comedians. who say, "Oh, but I, you know, I'm. bringing my ideas to, can I just say it. again? The Boulevard?". >> Yes. >> Maybe doing a gig in Square. >> Wow. You're playing Square. >> You're playing Square. Yeah. Oh my god. Yeah. You heard of The Spear, but this. sounds so much better. >> You sold that place out. Oh, you haven't. sold it out. Oh, no one No one sold any. of these out. Okay. >> Yeah. Louis CK and Jimmy Carr are doing. a joint gig. That's interesting. Uh, a. lot going on there. >> A lot going on there. A lot going on. there. So, I suppose you're saying, is. comedy the front line of the fight for. liberty? Is it by the way or is it full.

of mercenaries or is it somewhere? >> Do you know what is interestingly both. those things? Yeah, >> I think it's definitely full of. mercenaries and but of course it is but. there isn't a branch of show business. that isn't. >> It's all blood money which is all blood. money. >> But it is full of people who are dancing. on the tight rope of what you're allowed. to say. You know either either either. you're charming and funny and you're. saying something unusual or or you are. sort of trying to push an envelope. So, it's understandable that culturally this. is a group of people who believe their. opinions perhaps to have some impact and.

some importance. >> Well, they're not held back by. self-doubt, are they? Although they tell. you they are all the time, >> I would say to give me give an example. There was a really big Saudi the biggest. Saudi comic and there will be Saudi. comics on this bill by the way, but the. biggest Saudi comic for a long time and. people used to call him the Jerry. Seinfeld of Saudi Arabia or something. was called Fad Alpitari. He was filling. stadiums. He was a groundbreaker. He. went over to LA. He did a bit of work. Um he moved to Dubai. But he was married. to one of those women's rights activist.

who was who were arrested for driving. And she she managed to sort of get away. But then they were both grabbed her her. in UAE I think um and him in Jordan. And. they were taken back to Saudi. She was. imprisoned. She was tortured. She had. electric shocks beating water boarding. and she's finally released in 2021 and. she's still under a travel ban. Okay. And two months ago in Saudi Arabia, they. executed a journalist for a tweet. It.

was called Turkey Aljasa. He he had two. social media accounts. One called Turkey. Aljasa and another sort of anonymous one. which was apparently dangerously. satirical. So to me, this is like a real. tale of two cities. Like either you're. in the Riad where you get grabbed and. executed and tortured and all of those. things. >> or you're in the Boulevard. >> this kind of outward facing but let's. not kid ourselves that you're doing it. for anything. I think they're all doing.

it for the money. I'll be really honest. with you. I would love all of them all. of them to say how much they're being. paid cuz they hey listen these guys what. do they say? free speech machine speech. but also if you're Jim Jeff and you are. a free speech machine and genuinely you. know I think he has an argument that. says that but if you are a free speech. machine here is the perfect forum the. perfect set the perfect place the. perfect material take what uh Marina. just said talk about that talk about. that not only on stage but talk about. that with your handlers talk about that.

with the people who are taking you to. your car and then taking you to the. prescribed bar just talk to them if you. are a free speech machine this is amaz. you're machine. This is perfect. You. know no other way other than to promote. free speech. That's the thing. You're a. machine. You get turned on and that's. what you do. That's how you run. Well, >> I agree. >> This is the absolute perfect test of. being a free speech machine. It's the. perfect test for a lot of those comics. of saying you say that you say the. unsayable. You say that you're trying to. change people's minds and people's. views. Here we go. I mean, if you are at.

the forefront of the culture wars, if. you are at the forefront of where we're. going next, here is the perfect. opportunity to absolutely put a flag in. Show your true color. Show exactly who. you are and what it is that you do. There has never been a better time or a. better place to do it. They are not. going to kill you. >> You could all do it. It could be like a. bake off of the best set on sad human. rights abuses. You could all do it and. make it funny, you know, because you're. brilliant. you're the top at you're the. very top of your game.

>> And by the way, there are people on this. bill who I think are doing it for the. right reasons. I I I so I disagree with. you slightly. They're all doing it for. money, of course they are, but there are. people who genuinely believe that going. to Saudi Arabia that engaging in Saudi. culture, this country is not going to. become geopolitically any less important. anytime soon. So there there are strong. arguments. There will be people in NOS, there will be people in government who. say it it's really good to go and engage. with Saudi Arabia. It was a really. important place to, you know, >> unlike the guy I was talking to. It's. such a shame if you don't. >> Yes. But.

>> it's such a shame. >> They had a snooker tournament there last. year and there was nobody watching. anything and that's the point where you. know they go they play snooker in China. and it's absolutely rammed. So if you. are doing that you do and I'll say this. to the comics as well. Listen if it's. absolutely full of just normal Saudis. really laughing men and women a really. mixed crowd and it may well be by the. way come back and tell us. If it is, great. You have done your job. >> But also be aware that it has been. partially staged for you. >> Yeah. But be aware if it's not the. sellout you're hoping, be aware of who.

it is that you are working for. And just. run that through the machine, I would. say. >> Yeah. I think it's really I I think it's. really And what I find most interesting. is it has had so little coverage in. anything that would sort of resemble. mainstream publications. And I think. that's cuz people are trying to keep it. under the radar. I I want every coffin. spit from this thing though. I would. read a massive oral history about it 15. seconds after it's happened. So, I hope. everything is being documented and. smuggled out one way or another. >> Yeah. Jimmy Carr, if you're listening, please just write it all down. Now,

Jimmy is someone who thinks very deeply. about things. He will have a. justification for why he's doing it. But. I would love to read just from the. moment the plane touches down to the. moment they leave with a suitcase full. of cash. Yeah. I would like to read. every single thing. >> A very, very long read. >> Every conversation that is had. >> Yeah. And I want a full rundown of what. the Boulevard and Square look like. >> And I want to see um I want to see a. full transcript of the acts just to see. quite how freedom of speechy they are. >> and footage of the crowds. Not Will. Smith style which has been making me.

laugh all week. Will Will Smith's AI. concert photo. >> Oh my goodness. That is it's. unbelievable. >> If you haven't seen it, you've you've. got this was it is. >> Yeah. It doesn't necessarily have the. immediate vibes of Scarra, but if you. look at the footage, yeah, they've. composited a lot of stuff together. high-fiving an awful lot of seven and. three-fingered people in that uh AI. crowd, isn't he? >> It's amazing. I I really want to know. more about that as well. But anyway, that's a sidebar. >> Yeah, the Riad Comedy Festival. I mean, listen, Edinburgh started small.

>> Yeah. >> You know, perhaps in 40 years time, this. will be the thing. Everyone will go, "Oh. my god, the real comedy festival has got. so expensive now.". >> Yeah. >> You know, and you won't be able to find. accommodation. >> Yeah. if you I mean it's. >> cuz I used to be able to get a like a. two bed flat on square for like you know. 300 quid for that like like the whole. run. >> and now you're miles outside Boulevard. >> Yeah. >> Shall we go for a break? >> That was very bracing. Let's do that. >> Yeah. >> This episode is brought to you by Sky, home of Atomic, the new Sky original.

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Shazad Latif, and Samira Wy. >> is high stakes, offbeat, and somehow. still full of heart like Thurman Louise. if they were carrying uranium and. everyone has sand in their eyes. >> Watch Atomic. Brand new episodes every. Thursday on Sky requires Sky TV. subscription. >> Welcome back everybody. Now on to uh. more pleasant matters. Travis Kelsey and. Taylor Swift, listen, they're getting. married. as she said, your gym teacher. is marrying your English teacher. But we.

know about Taylor Swift, but Travis. Kelce, who is a a sports star. essentially, but now is a huge. entertainment titan as well. I think. perhaps over here we know a little bit. less about him. >> It's a genuinely fascinating story. because he is an NFL player and he. obviously has entertainment comedy. ambitions. Not not the first time. You. know, obviously we have Terry Cruz. Obviously, if you thought the ground was. salted after OJ Simpson, not at all. Not. at all. But there is a better way in the. form of Travis Kelce. He is.

extraordinarily. diversified. He's still playing. He. retirement will come relatively soon, pretty soon, >> by the way. And he's the real deal in. terms of um American football, won the. Super Bowl three times. He's, you know, he's he's a Hall of Famer. >> It's just been an unbelievable run on. all possible fronts. Sort of hilarious. He's had he's had a good decade or so. >> Yeah, he's we because we should say that. all this was happening, all this. diversification and becoming a sort of, you know, multimedia brand was happening.

well before he met Taylor Swift. There's. a forgotten dating show called Catching. Kelsey that happened on the E channel in. 2016. He didn't find true love on that, thank goodness. Uh saving himself for. this cultural moment. He did a deal with. Fizer to promote CO jabs, which got him. a lot of backlash, but also a lot of. people saw it. He co-owns a steakhouse. with his uh chief's teammate Patrick. Mahomes. He's got a clothing line. He's. got a nutrition brand. He is going to.

host Are You Smarter Than a Celebrity on. Prime? I think he was in an episode of. one of those Ryan Murphy horror sort of. anthologies, grotescaroo. He hosted SNL, which was a big sort of extraordinary. thing. He's invested in an indie movie. He's invested in some hot sauce, a brand. I particularly like. He has got really. cholula. The classic the Cholula, which. got the little round sort of wooden head. bottle. It's really nice. You know it. >> Oh, I know exactly what. >> the classic Mexican restaurant one. that's in all of them. >> Cholula. >> He's he's invested in that. >> That's Travis Kelce.

>> Yeah, he's Well, he's not just him, but. he did. >> There's other people. >> Yeah. >> Sounds like you're invested in that. company. >> I'm I'm invested as a consumer. I told. you he did the Grower Garden. collaboration. That is massive though. All of those people seeing you and being. interested in you. So I suppose we have. to say who is his manager or his. branding agency? >> Yeah. Where where where's this come. from? I mean so listen he's he's. obviously got a a kind of a spark in him. that wants to be in the conversation and. wants to do entertainment. >> Well, he's got it which is helpful. But. it's really interesting. There are these. two brothers who are his business. managers and they're called Andre and.

Aaron En. And Andre En was a childhood. friend of Travis Kelce's roommate at the. University of Cincinnati where he. obviously was a brilliant college. footballer etc. And um he started a sort. of events thing even while he was at. college. And Travis Kelce was apparently. the life and soul of all parties and. wanted to get like um you know back you. know um kind of free tickets or kind of. VIP passes or whatever. And meanwhile. his brother Aaron um Andrean's brother. was studying sports management. And what.

he thought was oh I want to be not a. traditional type of sports agent. I want. to be a bit more like someone who. manages a musical artist and um who had. you know where you're doing all these. other things and you're thinking which. other brands could we bring in and. something more like that. Anyway um and. they were trying to pitch all this to. obviously what they had access to was. college footballers and trying to say. but all of them just want a football. agent and they want to go big and they. that's what they want. So Travis Kelsey. became their second client. >> Wow. >> Yeah. It's cool, isn't it? Right. >> You know what with whenever I hear a.

story like that all I want to know is. who's the first one? I know. I know. That's what I was Yeah. It's not clear. I did actually try and find that out, but I couldn't. So, sorry for failing on. that front. Now, he's got sort of four. football agents. He's with CIA. He's got. publicists and creative strategist and. all of this stuff, but they planned his. sort of crossover from way before he met. Taylor Swift. They wanted him to be like. The Rock. >> Oh, that's that's kind of like like The. Rock, but for football. >> Yeah. Well, The Rock started in college. football, then he went to wrestling, and. then obviously, you know, now he's The. Rock. >> Yeah.

>> Having Remember, he got his name back. means he no longer has to be Dwayne. Johnson because he got the rock back. >> He was briefly called a hard place, wasn't he? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. In that like Prince phase. But as. I say, he he wanted it and he's got that. ambition and just he obviously has got. that charm which is very very particular. things like he really wanted he's always. wanted to do SNL and he said I want to. do SNL. They managed to get him to get. to go to an afterparty at one, you know, when maybe when the um he was nearby or. he was in New York or something and he.

went made a beline for Lawn Michaels, talked to him and then as soon as he won. the first Super Bowl, they literally. rang the next morning and said, "Okay, fine.". >> That's the thing sometimes when. someone's ascent looks absolutely. effortless is because they are. incredibly charismatic and good at what. they do. And so every time they send a. letter or every time they have a meeting. or every time they bump into somebody, that person follows up, you know, with. them because they're like, "Oh, this guy. has got it all." So it's not like you're. having to scra or you're having to. hustle, you have to grift. You just turn. up, be yourself, and immediately people.

go, "Oh, I can I can make some money out. of you.". >> The whole sort of persona is interesting. because he's huge. He's a kind of in a. big big macho sport. But the whole thing. with Taylor Swift where he's like, "Hey, I'm just a plus one. I'm really happy to. be here." is a really really kind of. good vibe. It's interesting that she. would sort of end up with him in a way. because she, you know, she came to. London famously and she had all these. kind of English boys, these kind of. artistic souls, you know, and Matty. Healey. And I'm joking. Don't be silly.

He's done. He's very successful. And now. he's he's with this kind of someone you. would think was like a big meatthead. slice of Americana, but actually it's so. much more than that. And that's what's. so he's he's really interesting the way. he talks about himself. >> He's like a cute alpha. >> Yeah. It's okay for everyone to like. him. And unless that's like I'm talking. like red state, blue state. He's a bit a. little bit like the rock in that way. We. I mean although I find the rock. infinitely more absurd as you know. >> and I hope and I and you know I like.

that in my celebrities but that's f but. they're all different and so I like. different. things. >> That's why we love celebrities cuz. they're all different. But there is. something incredibly charming and. magnetic about him and to be so to be. really sort of amusing and funny about. being her plus one. Yeah. Is just to. sort of it undercuts so much of what you. might think came with. >> it's an amazing cultural moment. By the. way, they're in I think they're in love. with each other. Exactly. Which is. great. I'm just checking because. sometimes I miss things. Um but they're.

in love with each other. But to get to. the point where you are so unbelievably. famous like he was and then you think. actually the best thing I can do for my. brand now is to show how unfamous I am. by marrying someone who is by marrying. one of the eight people in America. >> who is more famous than me. It kind of. it kind of works so beautifully for both. of them. How lovely. I mean one hopes it. lasts forever and ever and ever. >> We haven't even mentioned what he has. which is he has his new heights podcast. which is absolutely huge. That's that I. think. >> with his brother. >> Yeah. With his brother Jason. And that's. the way that people have got to know him.

because I suppose you just as we know. you're talking for many hours a week and. it's really that's been very. significant. Obviously she released her. she announced her latest album but the. thing that he will he always says is and. I think in terms of what he's interested. in doing acting all these things is oh I. know I'm coachable the brand is is a. form of humility weirdly which when. you're kind of 6'5 and all conquering. three time Super Bowl champion. >> is actually quite a hard to retain but. definitely hard to pull off and make. make it believable but because we have. access to this podcast where you can.

hear him talking all the time. >> he you do believe it cuz you you sort of. feel like you can't be you can't be. anything other than authentic to be. authentic for that length of time. >> every week. >> Yeah. Well, in TV, that's a lovely thing. about TV, you can definitely be. authentic for a whole career if you're. only doing like an hour a week on. Saturday nights. >> But yeah, if if you're doing two hours. every week with your brother, >> people people soon find you out. >> I can think of a few people from, you. know, the the 80s generation of hosts if. they've done a podcast, you'd have been. like, "Oh, well, that's interesting.".

>> I think it would have been compelling, >> wouldn't it? Just. >> But yeah, you know what? Listen, there's. lots of problems with AI, but the idea. that maybe in 10 years time we can have, you know, podcasts hosted by Jim. Davidson and Sila Black together, you. just think, what? Listen, I would. listen. >> I would listen. >> Yeah, I would listen. >> I would listen. Are they Richard the. apex of celebrity couples? >> Well, two questions. If you think about. the big celeb couples now in in the. entertainment sphere, you've got Travis. and Taylor who are now official. You got. the Beckhams who we've spoken about. before. You got Ryan Reynolds and Blake.

Lively. You got to put up there. Jay-Z. and Beyonce. >> Again, we've got some tarnished brands. you're fing out now. >> Uh Prince Harry, Meghan Markle, I think. have to be in the world of. entertainment. Now, >> I'm hearing their brand might be vaguely. tarnished, but carry on. >> Even the Obamas, I think you have to. accept are are currently an. entertainment brand given, you know, they're writers and they produce films. and stuff like that. of of all of those. celebrity couples, if you had to invite. a couple round for dinner and not just, oh my god, wouldn't it be crazy to meet. and I'll get loads of stories, but. you're genuinely thinking. >> all of those. >> all of those or you you can you can.

choose models own if you wish and go for. something else. But if you had to have. people that. >> you and Ingred. >> end of if you and Ingred can't come or. maybe you can come. >> What day is it? >> You can come as a six. >> Well, we'll we'll decide whether we're. coming. >> I like the old style. >> after I hear who who after I hear you. about you know Humphrey Bogart and. Lauren Be or like. >> if you said to me if you rang me up and. said would you and would like come. around for dinner we've got Humphrey. Bogart and Lauren Belell coming around. firstly I'd phone your husband and go is. Marina okay and secondly I'd go you know. what okay.

>> that all of those we Frank Sinatra and. Ava Gardner. >> really. >> yeah but okay okay I know this is a. terrible time in her life but these are. two titans Marilyn Monroe and Arthur. Miller you're not going to I mean I. personally would like to have them to. dinner. >> I was thinking Marilyn Monroe and JFK. >> that would be quite good Joe Majo even. But yeah. >> Yeah, that would be quite fun, wouldn't. it? >> Jamie Lee Curtis and Christopher guest. >> Oh, there we go. They would be good. >> Yeah, perfect. There's that great. episode of Kirby Enthusiasm where. Larry's invited to a dinner party and he. says, "I'm going to ask who else is. coming and Sher goes, you can't ask to.

come." He goes, "Why can't I ask you. coming?" If I had asked and you said, "It's it's Jamie Le and Christopher. Guest." Yes, please. >> Okay. What about Burton and Taylor? I. wouldn't want necessarily to come to Oh, no. that is the most iconic in some ways. because the most badly behaved, the most. disgustingly kind of financially. indulgent, the most unfettered ids of. all time maybe. >> But you'd have such a bad time. Those. people who who who didn't live their. lives in public quite so much. It looked. like they did at the time on the front. page of the papers, but they didn't. And. you, you know, you look into them, you. just go, "Oh, I don't know. I don't know. if you'd get on with my friends.".

>> Oh, okay. Elton and David 100%. Because. the gossip would be off the scale. >> Off the scale. Uh, he doesn't I mean. even when he's talking in public he says. exactly he's like one of the last. celebrities who say exactly what he. thinks all the time. The gossip be off. scale. Okay, that would be good. >> I think Jay-Z and Beyonce would be fun. >> Fun? I don't think be they'd be the. remotest bit of fun. >> You don't think you'd be so What? They'd. let their hair down? No, I don't think. so. >> I don't think it would be a laugh. >> Okay. >> Do you think you'd have a laugh with. Jay-Z and Beyonce? >> Yeah, I think I would. Me? Yeah, I think. I would. I'm good with people.

>> I would have liked Man and David Bowie. >> I would have loved that. >> Can you imagine that? >> That would have been I would have loved. that. Yeah. >> And I think you would have had a laugh. >> What was this item about? >> Uh I can't remember now. Where are we. now? Oh, what about John and Yoko again? Maybe not a big laugh, but maybe quite a. big laugh. >> Yeah, I think I think maybe I' I'd. always go with whoever Paul is with. >> Yeah. Oh, yes. Yeah. Okay. No, not. whoever. >> With one exception. With one notable. >> With one notable. >> Enough of your anti- Linda McCartney.

rants. >> That was not about Linda. Just for the. benefit of the tape. Honestly. Honestly, I'd like Taylor and Travis to come over. That is quite frankly, was that the. answer for helping me? >> No, not at all. Because you you've. absolutely trumped it with um with Jamie. D Curtis and Christopher Guest. That. would be mine. In terms of their net. worth, Taylor Swift is 1.6 billion and. Travis is 70 million. Although I imagine. he's worth a bit more than that. Now, all of these are those nonsensical. figures sometimes you get um in papers, but she is worth an awful lot. >> more than him. But together, they.

multiply. And as in every couple, this. is how you can always tell if a if a. couple are right for each other. Do they. multiply each other or do they divide. each other? And they multiply each other. for sure. Definitely the richest couple. are Jay-Z and Beyonce. Yes, >> cuz I mean Beyonce is worth close to a. billion. And. >> Jay-Z cuz of Rocker and Rock Nation, all. that. He's he's like 3.2 billion or. something. So they are sort of the most. powerful celebrity couple. But it Yeah, it feels like culturally Taylor Swift. and Travis Kelsey, they they cover such. a broad range. Should be fascinating to.

see what that means. >> for this particular cultural moment they. do. >> Well, listen right in everybody. Which. celebrity couple alive or dead? >> Rod Stewart and Penny. That would that. we'd actually like that. >> Yeah. We wish Travis and for what it's. worth, we wish Travis and Taylor all the. very best. >> Very best. >> How lovely. They're like they're like. the Liam Niss and Pam Anderson of the. next generation. >> Now, there's some dispersions being cast. on that relationship, but I don't. believe in it. No, I'm not listening. It's not I'm not listening either. Pam. Pam Pam and Liam coming round.

>> Oh yeah, for definite. For definite. >> That'd be interesting. >> Yeah, I know. That'd be great. >> We're going to need a couple of little. camping tables to put at the end of the. dining table. >> There'll be a children's table, which. I'd be sitting on. Oh, listen. You have. to tell us about Thursday Murder Club. >> The numbers. >> Yes, please. >> What can I tell you? >> Are you allowed to tell us numbers? No, you're allowed. Well, you can tell us a. chart position because it's number one. >> Yeah. Well, funny enough, today is in. terms of the economics of these things, it's needs to hit a certain number. We. we'll get the numbers today. It's it's. there there's there's a 3-day number.

where you get um your numbers for all. the English speaking territories and. which is for various reasons the the. most important thing for this project. You get then get a week uh number uh and. then you get a 28 day number as well. So. the 3-day number will come in today as. this podcast is coming out and that's. the one that will decide really will. they do the next movie. We don't have. the American numbers. I can look at the. English numbers and they're great and. that's lovely and it's it's it's done. very good business over here. Yeah. worldwide. It's it's it's number one. The Netflix numbers Netflix numbers. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. >> Just to be super clear because it is.

still in the box office. You can still. see theaters. You can still see it in. the in in in cinemas. Absolutely. The. economics of it are are to me anyway are. interesting. And you know, as someone. who loves the overnights and loves. charts and things like that, I genuinely. I have to admit this and I've only. admitted this to Chris Columbus so far. On Saturday, I used my VPN to go through. all of the different Netflixes around. the world to see where it was on the. different charts. And then I sent him a. list of where it was number one. He was. very happy.

>> I love that you did that. >> I was going, okay, Bulgaria. There we. go. I tried to just for for um for House. of Games Completists, I thought I want. to see if it's number one in Kazakhstan. because uh that'd be fun, but actually. you can't you can't get the data out of. Kazakhstan. So um that's a shame. Are. you able to see immediate effects on. things like book sales? Are you? >> Yeah. Yeah. Which which is Yeah, it's. gone. It's back on the New York Times. bestseller list, which is lovely. Yeah, it's it's really pumped things up, which. is which is great. So, people people are. are enjoying. >> I love to see you getting thrown a bone.

Yeah. >> Thank you. That's very, very kind. >> Oh, I am thrilled for you. It's. brilliant though. It's. >> No, it's lovely. And you know, different. things. I hadn't I didn't hadn't booked. a Saudi book tour before this week and. now I have got a big tour. So, I'm. playing. >> Are you playing Square? >> Playing Square. Yeah. Which I'm really. looking forward to. I am not doing a. Saudi book tour daily express before you. uh publish that. No, it's it's. fascinating. We we'll get the numbers. today and when after a month when all. the numbers have come through, maybe. I'll do a dive on how they use their. metrics, what they mean, how Netflix. makes its money, just I'll maybe.

>> because we know very little about a lot. of this stuff. So, this would be a. genuine window. Now, now they won't tell. me. >> Yeah. >> Now, they won't. Yeah. We're going to. talk now about Michael Jackson's sort of. commercial afterlife. When Michael. Jackson died, um, he was in famously in. about half a billion dollars worth of. debt. Um, and in fact, that's why he was. doing the This Is It concert tour. Um, he is now his estate is now worth at. least 3 billion. So, we're going to talk.

a little bit about how they did it, existing projects and upcoming projects. In terms of how they did it, they did a. lot of music catalog deals which they. sold half of the music catalog to Sony. and he had a huge stake in Sony which. already had a percentage of the Beatles. catalog. Um he had a minority interest. in EMI which I think they sold. They. also started licensing the music for. things like cir shows. So there's things. like that live productions. But the big. thing, one of the big things has been MJ. the musical which has had an a.

record-breaking run in New York. I think. it's currently on about $300 million in. gross earnings. They've sold millions of. tickets worldwide. >> And it's also the perfect answer to the. question, do we judge the art by the. artist? And the answer is no, we don't. >> It does keep a very narrow time frame. that musical. It's all set for the first. child of ease allegations from Georgie. Chander which were in 1993. And the. director and the choreographer of that. said they wrestled with it. Uh but they. decided in the end it was just. entertainment. >> They're freedom of speech machines.

>> Yeah, they're freedom of speech. freedom, freedom of moonwalking. machines. It's won a lot of Tony's. It's. won lots of It won the Black British. Theater Awards last year. It won um big. at that. It's very, very successful. Of. sort of more forthcoming interest is. this movie they're doing. This is really. fascinating. This whole story of the. movie is really interesting because. >> he's been played by his own nephew, >> Jafar Jackson. >> Jafar Jackson. >> How can you call Jafar? The movie is. really easy to understand. How can you. misunderstand Aladdin? Okay, fine. Anyway, it's written by John Logan who.

wrote The Aviator. He did The Equalizer. All sorts of things directed by an Anton. Farwell who did Training Day. There's. lot good, you know, Coleman Domingo is. playing Joe Jackson. Miles Teller is. very is playing a very interesting. person who's been the sort of defender. of Michael Jackson's legacy. He's called. John Branker. >> So, he's one of the guys who was. actually behind how much money. >> he runs the estate and he was he's like. an absolute back tothe-wall defender of. Jackson and the legacy. We'll come back. to it in a minute. But anyway, this this.

movie was supposed to come out this. year, but they have had to go back and. reshoot the entire thing. >> Well, because I mean, interestingly, unlike the musical, they're thinking, "No, this is going to be we're going to. tell the whole story. We're not going to. back away from this." You know, that's. the whole point, you know, we we love. Michael and so we have to show. everything that happened in his life. We're not not afraid to take on. controversies headon, but it turns out. they are not able to. They're not able. to because um the the part of the. settlement with Jordi Chandler, the the. first child to make that we know about.

to make um allegations against Michael. Jackson that became public in 1993. Part. of the settlement was that the family. would never be portrayed. And in this. they're portrayed as kind of money. grubbing and all of that. And in fact, we don't know what but whether this will. be the in fact the script that was shot. But Matt Bellamy, who writes for Park, who is brilliant, used to be editor of. the Hollywood Report, he now does a. podcast called The Town and. >> he's in he's in the studio as well, doesn't he? >> Yeah. Yeah. He he he saw the script and. says it opens with or a script. It opens.

with the police raiding Neverland in. 1993 and Jackson being strip searched, which he said was the most humiliating. moment of his life because the child, Georgie Chandler, made various. anatomical um claims about him and they. were anyway. So, it definitely didn't. shy away from it, but they're not. allowed to do any of this. Someone from. the Jackson estate did not tell the. filmmakers this. I you can't actually. believe that this much money. This film. is incredibly expensive by they've spent. a fortune on this film considering it's.

a sort of human story. I think it's way. over 150 million and that's ridiculous. You know, that's like for CGI movies. Yeah. >> Um. >> and it doesn't it's not full of massive. stars. I mean, Coleman Domingo is. getting paid a lot, but it's not Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's the talent is nothing. on. It's extraordinary the amount of. money that's been sent on this. So, they're now going to do that. I think. they're going to do that old new trick. where they're going to divide the movie. into two cuz apparently there's so much. to say. Well, the film has been pushed. back. It's supposed to be April next. year. We'll see if it's April next year. It's already been pushed back because. unfortunately they had to redo the.

entire last third. But now it's being. split. Maybe they won't have to. The. thing about him is is that he is as you. you know he is making more money now. than he made in the final third of his. life um because he was dogged by all. these allegations and I you know I have. to say I think he would have been dogged. by them for the rest of his life. It's. very interesting how the fans are able. to divorce it in so many ways. Leaving. Neverland that documentary the HBO. documentary that came out was very very. interesting. two grown men now, Wade.

Robson and James Safechuck, alleged of. his abuse of them. It's amazing because. if you watch that documentary, it's. unbelievably affecting and that it's. awful. Really awful and harrowing. And. yet people are still able to say, "Oh, this is, you know, you but you. maintained a relationship with him.". Something we know we don't necessarily. always have to say about people who are. in abusive relationships. You your. families are money grubbing, whatever it. is. Um, and I'm sort of amazed that the. estate survived that because it was.

really intense. And actually, it's. what's quite interesting is that there. is a civil suit coming from both of. those guys, from Wade Robson, James. against two of Michael Jackson's. production companies, um, saying that, you know, your employees failed to. protect us. Because that's the whole. thing about Michael Jackson is that. >> one thing that people always say is. that, you know, you lived in a house. with masses of servants, not all of whom. were chimps, you know, because the chimp. the chimps were actually put to work. around the house. >> doing what? >> Like window cleaning and stuff.

>> Moving pianos. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Basically was window cleaning. Yeah. >> How does that work? >> It's some of them and it became to do. it. You'd have to do it again. You have. to do it yourself afterwards. >> Yeah. Apparently there were whole. issues. There were a lot of issues with. the chimps. But um anyhow, this guy John Branker, who is going to be in the movie not so. long ago, five men came to him and said. that they were going to go public a. decade after his death. I think it was. 2019. They did a deal with him, the. estate, in 2020, and said it the whole.

the value of the deal was each of you. going to get $3.3 million, but it's in. staggered payments and you now have to. defend him. Wow. from alleging. inappropriate payment. They did defend. him. Except one of them when the last. payment was due said, "Yeah, you know. what? I don't want to do this anymore. I. now want $230 million." And so there are. all of these things. And there are. quotes from John Branker who says, "We. survived leaving Netherland, but I'm not. sure we could have could have with these. additional allegations." And he says.

that the lawyer said, "Tim, you've got. no choice. If these people come forward. and make these allegations, then Michael. is over. His legacy is over. The. business is done." And yet it's not. done. And so there are at the same time. as it has become this sort of. unbelievable money-making juggernaut, there are these things going through the. courts and coming closer to court. >> We're so siloed still as a culture, aren't we? That actually there are some. things that just don't come across. enough people's radar. And you know, he's all he needs is most of the people. who love Michael Jackson to not really. hear this stuff. And.

>> oh, they hear it, but they don't believe. it. They go down internet rabbit holes. We have to say that all of what they've. done, the estate has worked. >> Yeah. I've done it just. >> he has made as I say more money now than. he's made in the last third of his life. He isn't alive to continue doing things. that get in his own way should we put it. that way and it remains a sort of. juggle. The movie I think will be huge. It suddenly needs to be on that budget. The only things are these constant. series of allegations that are working. away and many in some cases are legal. submissions and they will have to be. dealt with.

>> But the estate has done extraordinary. well in the particular circumstances I. would say. >> And the beneficiaries of the state seem. to be his mother who is still with us. Yeah. >> And the three. >> children. >> children who have been through various. troubles but actually seem remarkably. stable from from the background they. come from. >> Yeah. >> Blankets blankets changed his name. blankets called bees or something, isn't. it? But the estate just keeps growing. and getting bigger and so we'll have to. see how it pays out. But it's all. worked. It's been very tactical.

>> Yeah. >> A lot of it stewarded by this guy John. Branka and it has it has thus far. worked. Have you got a recommendation. for us, Richard? Now. >> I do. If I may, the new Suede album is. out on Thursday. Yes, I saw. It's. brilliant. It's so great. You know, they're in their late 50s, these guys. And this album is getting five stars. everywhere in the It's like It's And. it's a really really good album. Sort of. postpunky and slightly gothy, slightly. rocky. It's just It's just great. And. I'm I'm I'm so proud of my brother. Uh. and it's. >> I've loved all the interviews. They've. done some good interviews. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're uh they are.

they are I'd say more comfortable with. themselves than they were in the '90s. And yeah, lovely to see them living. their best lives. But anti-depressants. it's called. And it's a it's a it's an. absolute stormer. >> Well, I think that about wraps us up. >> Lot of controversy today. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Apart from we love Travis Kelce. >> Yes. >> A strangely oddly uncontroversial. position. >> Yeah. Thank you. >> In a world in a world of of schism. He. he brings us together. >> Now a very exciting bonus episode this.

week. >> The dream for both you and me, but. particularly you. We are going behind. the scenes on transfer deadline day at. Sky Sports News. >> So our lovely producer Joey is not not. with us because he is I think he got. there at 4:00 a.m. this morning. So he's. going to talk you through what a. production that is. They're on the air. like all day long doing transfer. deadline day down at Sky Sports. So all. the behind the scenes of how that's put. together. >> Iconic, I think it's fair to say. >> Iconic. Exactly. So that that will be.

for members on Friday. >> Anyway, if you want to join and have. adree listening, etc., etc., it's the. rest entertainment.com. Otherwise, we. will be back as usual on Thursday. >> See you on Thursday. [Music].