The Celebrity Traitors Drama Goes Beyond the Castle

Hello and welcome to this episode of the. rest is entertainment celebrity traitors. reaction episode. >> I'm Marina Hyde. >> You sure are. I'm Richard Osman. >> It's episode five. >> Yeah, we've just finished watching it. I'm sure you have as well. And we are. ready to discuss in detail. >> We are. There's a lot going on. >> Yeah, there's always that's the beauty. of this format. There's a lot going on. >> Undercurrens, overcurrens, all the. currents. Yeah, we'll get to every. current. >> Um we'll have to begin with the murder. They did as you suggested.

>> Killed Rob. >> Yeah, they killed Rob with James telling. us that he was wrestling with his. conscience and it was somehow better to. do it face to face. Anyway, >> I get it. >> I I get it. >> But he also said this is a classic chaos. murder, which is good. This is proper. traitors talk. Man who doesn't want to. be a traitor. He's absolutely right. It's a classic chaos murder, which is. what you want at this stage. >> They all worked out. >> that Leanne must have the key. In. retrospect, it's obvious. And in. retrospect, you could see Romesh was. saying, "Oh, actually, we shouldn't have.

given her the key because there's no way. they would have gone for her." Uh, so. again, and that was Maya who worked that. out. So, finally, we're getting some. smarts from the traitors. Finally, we're. getting them rowing the boat in the same. direction. >> The faithful remain fixated on the. rearview mirror. >> The one thing I'll say, when they got. rid of poor Rob, so [laughter] you've. got James is there and Rob got got let. out. And in in the edit, Rob is laughing. and then they pull their hoods and then. off they walk. I would like to have a.

sweep stake on how long [snorts] the. chat between James and Rob was. I would. say an absolute minimum 25 minutes. >> just back and forth, back and forth. banter getting Maya involved. I mean, it. would have been absolutely non-stop. And. then in the edit, you're just like Rob. laughing and then let's put our cloaks. up and and and off we walk. >> Release the super cut of the celebrity. traders. Yes. >> Release it so we can all see. Yeah. >> But I mean, God, what a good sport. Rob. Becket is.

>> He's fantastic, isn't he? Fantastic. And. Romish was so funny about him for the. rest of this episode. They're almost. funnier. >> Yes. >> Some of the drivebys were superb. We'll. get to them. >> The rest is entertainment is presented. by Octopus Energy, whose generation. business backs, builds, and manages. renewable energy projects. On screen. though, the practicalities of sourcing. power are slightly more negotiable. >> Certainly in scripts, I mean, my. favorite energy source story, Back to. the Future, of course, they're supposed. to have plutonium. They don't have.

plutonium, so they rely. >> back in when they go back. >> When they go back, >> so they need to get 1.21 gaw. >> which they get from the lightning. strike, which they know is going to. happen at 10:04. Very, very clever. Monsters, Ink. Now, you know where the. power source is. Monsters Inc. Everything in Monstropolis is powered by. children's screams, which is why they. need to sort of harvest them. >> Yeah, may not work in real life. >> On screen, keeping the lights on does. seem to require an unnecessary amount of. drama. >> Now, Octopus Energy Generation has. rather less need for a screenwriter. It.

backs, builds, and manages renewable. energy projects with 5.7 gawatt of. capacity across its portfolio, enough to. power all the homes and businesses of. Birmingham, Leadeds, and Manchester. combined. a slightly more conventional. approach to generating power. >> But okay, so and then it was breakfast. the next morning. Quite a scenery. chewing entrance from Ross Kemp. He. really hammed it up. >> He doesn't know what else to do with. scenery. >> No, >> he's never seen a piece of scenery he. didn't want to chew. But that but that.

that's why he's such great television. >> But can I ask you something? Why are. there suspicions? It is classic faithful. illogicality that there are any. suspicions of Ross. There's no reason. whatsoever for anything he's done. He. actually makes a great case for it all. later in the show, but there is no. reason at all. >> An insanely high risk tactic to have. nominated himself for both the. gravedigging and for insanely high risk. for for a man who's clearly living on. his nerves at all times. >> He's on his last nerve. He's been on his.

last nerve since episode one with the. hat and murdered in plain sight. I don't. get the sense that he is forming. friendships and alliances in there. I. just don't get the sense that he is, but. maybe we're not seeing it, but you don't. have the sense that like. >> he's part of a gang. >> Yeah. And that he that he's relaxing. enough into it to do that. >> I don't think he's been able to because. he is absolutely, you know, on red alert. at all times. He's like the sort of. first defense for nuclear submarines.

He's like he's constantly he is the. single most precise measurement there is. of any sort of danger to himself. >> Uh and I I think probably in that. environment it's quite hard to relax and. if you're finding it hard to relax. probably hard to find friendship groups. but again if you are Ross you're right. to be paranoid because even at that. breakfast Jerry is saying I mean he just. keeps turning up everywhere. >> Yeah. I think and. >> yeah, and what do we read into that? And. later on they're having a discussion. about Ross and someone's saying it's.

interesting he got chosen for both of. those things. And I think it was Joanne, forgive me if it wasn't, who just said, "Yeah, that's a valid point." And I'll. tell you now, it's many things. It is. not a valid point. >> Yeah. Miranda said he's unknowable. She's playing a great game. I have to. say the best so far. Well, not. necessarily the best. Kenny, excellent. We'll get to it. Um, but Miranda said. he's unknowable. He he gets angry at. heat. >> Yeah. >> In the way that you like he might get. angry at a wasp or something. He's he is. too intense I think in a way because.

they have they're so then anyway. faithfuls tend to not be very good and. if they've got nothing else actually. they regard all the signs that someone. is faithful as traitor behavior. >> The exact opposite. He said at one point. and I had a great sympathy for him. He. said they are using me like [laughter] a. donkey. >> I've just got that written down right. here. They're using me like a donkey. It's like, >> and they are, to be fair, >> he's he reminds me of a character in a. Shakespeare play that sort of says, "I. am fortunes fool," and then exits the. stage, you know, like the fates are.

playing with me. I He really is. It's. Yeah, I could see him definitely do Lear. after this. >> Oh my god, he'd love to hear that. Uh he. I his Lear would be quite something as. well cuz he bring all of this. >> They might have to split over two nights. cuz I don't know if I could my heart. could take watching that. >> Or his. Yeah, >> you know, you would you would absolutely. have to you'd have to that have to be a. two interval. Leah, >> whereas Kenny is clever and he said, "Let's see who's pushing what, Ross?". Because Kenny can see Kenny, >> I can tell you something right now. Let's not even leave it till the wash up.

episode after the series is finished. Kenny is going to do very well in life. off this show. >> Incredibly well off the back of this. >> Whatever happens now, I can tell you. that he is going to do well off the back. of the show. >> Yeah, he's incredibly likable. He's. playing the game very, very well. Everyone seems to enjoy his company. including viewers. Yeah, it is including. viewers. >> This is like this is the perfect launch. pad. I mean obviously doesn't need a. launch bag because he has fame in a very. different. >> he's got a whole different audience but. in this audience it's this he's being. introduced to a lot of traitors viewers. for the very very first time.

>> He is going to have one of the great. showbiz ven diagrams when this is done. Isn't he. >> the old and the new? >> Yeah, the old and the new. He know he's. great. He's great. I at some point I'm. going to look up what he what what he. does but at the moment I feel I don't. need to because what he does certainly. at the start of this episode is hunt. traitors. That's all I need to know. about King Kenny for now and I like him. >> Yeah, the faithfuls are sort of. obsessive but they are also headless. chickens. James Auster rightly. identified quite early on who they are. He said this is a bunch of faithfuls.

that reads into everything as he said. when he did the chaos murder. Um and. then sort of after breakfast when they. chatting uh Romesh said not only are we. coming up with new theories we are going. back to some of the old ones which where. we know the results. It was brilliant. Yeah because they were going over Mahala. again. It's like yeah but we we know she. was a faithful. >> We've done that and Julie. Yeah we know. honestly. We know. >> Yeah. Let's talk about Joan as you know. I have a huge amount of time for her. >> What a breakout. Oh she's brilliant. >> Don't put her in a box. She doesn't. believe in the existence of boxes until.

she does believe in them and then she. only believes in boxes. She is uh like. God bless her gut which tells her some. absolutely off-base things. Um the. conversation with Bash was brilliant. She's like she says it's Ross. Okay. She. he had his eyes do not close. He has not. blinked since he's but she's so funny. She has not blinked. She's been in here. She noticed the overperformance of. breakfast. >> She I mean it's almost too much this. episode for reasons that will are. obvious given that they're headless. They could end up voting for her. There.

is an element of Alan Carr where it's. just like I just think this is a person. who cannot be put in a box and. >> it's just the nature of Joanne. >> Maybe she's just like yeah if certainly. if Joanne or Jerry were to be traitors. you would think they they'd be playing. the Richard Grant role but properly. >> Yes. you know, which is I'm absolutely. going to jump in the middle of this, be. crazy, and every single round table. I. mean, she voted for bash. >> You know what? Not not a crazy thing to. do, >> but you know, I guess.

>> I I'm already wish to anoint a new. phrase. It's so Joanne. I mean, I've got. a whole amount of time for her. Really. want a night out with her. >> Yeah. I mean, >> hit me up, Joanne. I want to go out with. you. I just She's just hysterical. >> When you're in a castle with Jerry Hall. and you're the wild card. Yeah, >> you know that's that's that's quite some. performance. >> She's being outflanked. Jerry Hall has. been outflanked in wildardness by her. >> But she's also got the memo of you have. to be entertaining. >> Yes. >> You know what? There's we we're watching. this as an enter. Of course, it's a game.

show and there's strategy going on. It's. also we're watching people locked up. together interacting with each other. >> Just as we said in the last series of. celebrity traitors, you are an entertain. you are a light entertainment booking. Sorry to have to spell it out for you, but you are being paid a lot of money. for essentially, you know, less than two. weeks work at the max. >> And you are a light entertainment book. >> You are not the former head of MI6. And. if if you are, that's that's a different. role that you're playing there. What you.

are absolutely is uh is showbiz. >> Yes, you are. Right. Are we going to. talk about the death parade mission? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I could have a couple a. couple of format issues with it. For me, it looked great. >> It looked great, but I could have lived. without elements of it. Yeah. Tell me. your format issues with it. >> Well, my format issues are this, which. is so you're either going to win the. eight grand, that's what it's all about. essentially. The absolute key to the. format issues with it are if you watch. it back, if you watch the cutaways of.

the death parade, which are filmed a. long time afterwards, they're walking. really quickly. If you see any shot. where the actual contestants or. anything, they're walking really, really, really slowly. In fact, they're. walking at a pace at which it would be. impossible for them to catch the. traitors. >> Yeah. >> Because. >> they're doing it in a way that is like. I'm I'm giving you my final warning. >> Yes. I don't make me. >> two and a half. >> step incredibly slowly towards you. anymore. Yeah. So, it was an obvious.

one. if they had failed that task. You. know, one of the the parts of that task. was you half the people are going to be. in one bit of the castle for a while, half the other people are going to be in. the other bit of a castle and you hope. to get a bit of business out of that. In. the end, they didn't. >> They didn't at all. They couldn't they. didn't maximize either half. >> Well, I presume nothing happened. I. presume nothing happened that that was. newsworthy, but and even so, I think it. was probably only about an hour and a. half that they were separated from each. other. But if they had failed the task, they would all be in the same place. >> Yes. And so there's absolutely no point.

to the task whatsoever. So as a. producer, there's no point having that. task unless it is succeeded because you. split people into two. And as I say, it. didn't nothing really came of it. But. that's the idea of that task is let's. have six people here. Let's have the. rest of people here. That will be an. interesting dynamic especially when you. know there are people who are about to. be banished and what does this group. think? What does this group think? Do we. have factions? None of it happened but. that's what was planned to happen in. that task. And so it was imposs it was. literally impossible to fail. The other.

thing I would note is the flame wall. >> and I would like to see in the uh. production designers drawings for this. task how high that flame wall was. >> because it had a strong element of the. Stonehenge in Spinal Tap, didn't it? >> It had the strong element of three. health and safety people just absolutely. overruling the producers at all points. just saying I have people in robes. I. have supporting artists in robes. I have. naked flame. Uh, and I have this task.

where you're saying you don't know if. they're going to catch them or not. And. it might be I mean, what if they light. the fire. >> at the last second when they're almost. on it? >> I've seen garden flat fire pits that are. bigger than what they have. Three little. buckets. >> Yeah. I felt for the producers there. They really want this to be. >> Yeah. They wanted to set the forest on. fire. >> They want to do a Champions League. final. So, and and which by the way, I. can never understand how those flames. are allowed to be so close to the. ground. But that's a sidebar. Uh but. yes, it was it was um yeah, it's like.

when we did uh highboard diving on the. games years ago and we wanted them to go. off the 10 m board and the coach on the. afternoon said a couple of them are just. going to have to dive in off the side. and we're like, "Oh, I don't know if. that's going to be great television.". Anyway, I felt I felt for the producers. in that moment, but yeah, the whole task. it didn't do what it was designed to do, but that's fine. They don't always say. the obviousness of they had to succeed. was. >> a little too obvious. Like if they had. failed, they're all in that little cart.

for the next. >> 3 hours. Yeah. >> Together. I didn't see it. >> So yeah, Maya, James, and Hannah sort of. self-sacrifice. >> Hannah accidentally. >> Well, she says accidentally. Yeah. Um, and then they were all in the and that. gave Romesh the chance to say to her in. the cage to do a kind of pre-round table. confrontation. >> There was a little bit. >> I mean, the thing is she just kept. rationalizing it and throwing every bit. of her brain at it. Yeah. >> But even by that point, you were. thinking, I feel I know where the show.

is going today. >> Yeah. I would say this as as as a. traitor, I would have sacrificed myself. It's almost better to be out of the. conversation on a day where you've just. done a chaos murder. probably for. Hannah, she probably might have wanted. to be in the bigger group. I don't think. it would have saved her, but it's it's. in in some ways you want to be you. remember when. >> she would have wanted to be in the. castle, wouldn't she? So she could sew. various seeds, any seed rather than just. being sat there and converted by wrong. >> But often it's more useful to be just. out of the way. Remember when Margaret. Thatcher resigned and uh the succession.

thing came on and John Major was away. for two weeks because he'd had a dental. operation. Yes. And the fact that he was. not in the House of Commons meant he. became our prime minister. >> Yeah. >> And I would say that that's what uh. >> in the way that went absent in the whole. referendum campaign and emerged like a. submarine. Yeah. Like hi. >> That task reminded me of that. It really. reminded me of a a Tory party succession. battle. >> Um so we find ourselves very quickly I. would say at that round table because. >> there wasn't these two factions. There.

wasn't We certainly saw almost nothing. of the people who went back to the. castle talking about. >> nothing. They can't have said anything. interesting. What we did see was Maya in. the diary room, which we still call the. diary room, even though it's the wrong. the wrong show, saying, "I don't want to. vote for Hannah." At which point you're. like, "Oh, okay." So, right. She's. definitely just like you did last time. >> Just like you did with Richard. I don't. want to have to sacrifice Richard. So, we knew she was doing it. >> Yeah. You had to Well, you know, they're. smart enough to know you had to reset. the game. You had to reset this game. Uh. and Hannah, you know, Bash again did for.

Hannah in that she came up with her. explanation on the round table. I. thought was excellent. I thought really. I I bought all of it. I thought she's, you know, absolutely saying the right. thing. Uh and bash, as you'd done. previously, just said, >> "Yeah, no, I absolutely buy all that. I. find that convincing. I just I just. interested that you didn't say it. yesterday.". >> Yeah. I mean, that's the problem. >> Bash. >> So Maya tries the opening gambit of. like, "Why did they get rid of Rob?". which is a bit of a one sort of um. >> something though, isn't it? >> Yeah, it is. And Romesh is very funny.

saying, you know, yeah, he was good. You. know, if you like that one-dimensional. route one. >> Yeah. Jerry was saying he was so funny. [laughter]. >> They are funny almost apart, but they're. funnier together. >> Joanne went over the top with her Ross. is always there theory. >> Yeah. >> Um. >> that's not like Joan. >> What I loved was he then completely. psyched her out with his very very. intense earnestness. And just to kind of. make it stop with some kind of sympathy, she was like, "Yeah, no, no, it was. horrible.". >> And everyone's like, "What?" But you.

weren't there. >> Oh god. Yeah. >> Because she just wanted to make the. earnestness stop. >> Yeah. >> And you know, which I really sympathize. just. >> but other people that would have doomed. them. >> Other people if it said, "Yeah, it was. horrible.". >> It was horrible. >> With this lot, it still might vote for. Joanne. >> They are. They grab at anything. And if. they have mel if they have psychological. meltdowns again we will get to it. then they might be included enough to I. hope they don't. >> I don't think the access of smart. faithfuls which in which I would include.

Miranda Michael I would have included. Kenny but uh for reasons. >> but they may feel the need to sacrifice. her at some point for one reason or. another. think I think you want to keep. her in the castle in the same way they. want to keep Ross in cuz he's really got. the tasks you want to keep Joan in. because the one thing that every single. contestant in this show knows which. sometimes in the regular show they don't. know is she is great television and the. better television this is the better. it's going to be for them. >> well yes but I wonder whether they're. that cleareyed anymore but okay so James.

Bond had a little bit of heat um. >> it went away didn't it. >> yeah very quickly she was pushing James. Bond and if got back to the class, I. think she would have pushed that one. because it was probably the most fun. But in the end, in the event, she went. for Jerry. Kenny versus Hannah. I mean, Kenny's logical deduction. >> is so good and so calm. >> He is not having any form of meltdown as. nor is Bash that both of them are very. cleareyed still. They haven't got that.

kind of. >> I'm paranoid about absolutely everything. which seems to have overtaken other. people much quicker than you would. expect. Um, as you said, always they. started at the same level of paranoia. that the others finished on and these. two those two have not been overtaken by. that. >> Yeah. And again with a in a classic sort. of with with with a producers uh hat on, they have to before those roundts throw. a little bit of light on say three. different contestants. Sometimes they do. it on two if they know it's going to be. close. If it's three different. contestants, they have to do it. They. have to go, "Oh, I wonder if it will be.

James. I want it. They know when they're. editing that bit, they know who's gone, of course, and they know how the run. table went and they know what the votes. were and they know it's an absolute. walkover. So, it's it's one of those. things they didn't have a lot to play. with because I presume every. conversation beforehand, every. conversation was it has to be Hannah. And you can't just for the viewers, you. can't just put all of those. conversations in because we we want to. enjoy the round table a little bit. >> But the round table was very short. The. edit of it was very very short. I don't.

know how long they gave them to talk. What do you think they gave them to. talk? >> It would have been a very very short one. because they would all have agreed. I. mean there's there's a reason that James. and Maya both voted for. >> Hannah. Yeah. And that reason wasn't. 100% evident from what we saw. >> That is interesting because James Blunt. had far far less heat on him than you. would have imagined. Yes. >> He you would have thought it would have. been good if Hannah been able to get. back to the castle and not be in the. cage. She could have.

obviously obviously voted for. any of it. >> My assumption is everyone who went back. to the castle all sat around and said, "We're definitely voting for Hannah, aren't we?" And then enjoyed their. afternoon snack. Uh, and you understand. why that's not something you're going to. >> edit into the show. So, but you got. afterwards you can kind of go, "Oh, yeah, that that must have been what. happened." But who didn't vote for um. Hannah? It was only Joanne, who wasn't a. wild card anyway. Romesh who hadn't been. in that group. By the way, there's also. a trick they always do. They It's not.

random who they start with. >> They they always try and if it's going. to be six all, they'll always start with. the person where the last person that's. the casting vote. >> If it is everyone is voting for Hannah, they'll always try and start with. something that's a bit of a. >> Yeah. >> wild card. So they they started with. Ramish. >> Yes, they started Ramish. She went for. James Blunt. Um Joanne went for Bash. I've just put three exclamation marks. I. mean. >> Sure. >> Amazing. >> And the producers looking at that. So, the producers in the in the gallery will. have who everyone has voted for. They'll. sit down, work out the order that makes. the final reveal the most exciting. In a.

case like this, there isn't one. Uh, and. if there isn't a final reveal that's. exciting, they'll be like, "Oh, what's. what's the first reveal that at least. might make viewers think, oh, hold on a. minute." And that's Ramish saying, >> "James, you either have him first or. second." And they'll have looked at Joan. saying, "Bash," and they'll be like, "What do we do with that?". >> They've never Yeah. I mean, just let's. enjoy it. Let's let's that moment sit. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> They've never in the UK version in any. of the Celebrities or Civilians.

obviously uh had two traitors out by. episode five. >> Yeah, it's an issue. >> Yeah, it's an issue. >> Um should we talk about that uh after. the break? >> After the break, we'll talk about what. next for the traitors. We'll talk about. my favorite subject, which is why vote. off traitors. and we'll talk about what. I think is going to be a big big. conversation national conversation plot. line going forward which is the whole. pastoral care people's mental health. >> good stuff in the papers isn't there. >> there will there is and there'll be. plenty more so let's get that after the.

break. [music]. >> this episode is brought to you by our. friends at Lloyds. >> now let's talk about movie con artists. who are your absolute absolute favorites. >> movie, TV, and book. My answer is the. same and it's Tom Ripley. >> I was going to say him. It's one of the. greatest characters of all time. >> So, from the talented Mr. Ripley books. by Patricia Highmith, there's five of. them. So, if you like talented Mr. Ripley, you are in luck. He is like one.

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how Lloyds protects you from fraud. AI. powered scam checks, voice biometrics, and realtime alerts are just some of the. ways Lloyds are protecting you. based on. Lloyd's Banking Group data 2023 to 2025. [music]. >> Okay, welcome back everybody. Uh let's. just deal with the immediate aftermath. of the round table. Joe Lyser issuing.

what in football is referred to as a. come and get me play. Um and yeah, that. was quite that is a play for sure. >> It's bold. It's bold. It's a play. though. >> Yeah. And we mustn't forget that every. play pretty much in this game backfires. >> Yes, I agree it that it always does. And. he Yeah, he I think it will be. problematic for him. I think it was it's. all anything that seems overexaggerated. and nuts people become suspicious of. >> There's a really basic maths in traitors.

which is say there's 17 of you left. If. you are just one of 17, it's one in 17. chance that you might be a traitor, which might as well be zero. [snorts]. >> If you decide to do something, if you. decide to, you know, if you're put. forward for a task or you say, "Oh, come. and recruit me.". >> There are two ways of taking it. Either. A, that's obviously something a faithful. would do. Or B, oh, that's quite. suspicious. That's something a traitor. might do. You have just reduced your uh. chances of staying in from one in 17 to. 1 in two. You've given people a binary.

choice. You've given them something and. they may well say, "Oh, no, but he. wouldn't do that." But they're making a. binary choice and previously they're. making a whatever you call a one in 17. choice. >> Yeah. It's it's it's Josie Mourinho's. style of football that where effectively. if you actually follow it through to its. logical conclusion, having the ball is a. risk. So yeah, >> it's better not to have it. >> Yeah, just park the bus. >> Just Yeah, just have no possession. And. >> I tell you who's parking the bus, by the. way, beautifully. Michael Sheen. >> Yeah. >> I mean, wow. That I mean, he could get. his HV license. I mean that is he is.

doing he's absolutely just straight bats. just knocking just. >> coming across very very well just not. doing anything not putting his head. above the paragraph. >> and we know he's deliberately doing it. because he said oh I wonder if I you. know went too far voicing any opinion at. the last round table. >> so I thought that you know so we know. he's consciously doing it as a strategy. >> and he's by the way when we talked about. the comedians are able to use their. comedy to to not come up with anything I. think he can use his status yes. >> I think there's a status that he has in.

that game and that people are like, "Oh, no, it's cool. Keep Michael in cuz we. like being in a castle with Michael. Sheen." Yeah. And I think he's been. >> able to do that. And the other reaction. which was cute is Miranda and Bash and. Kenny all skipping up and down the. corridor saying, "We've got a traitor.". >> Yes. >> Yeah. And by the way, don't celebrate. cuz it is not a good thing to do. >> You've you've you've got the ball now. >> Yeah. You have just made your game much. harder. Yeah, what you've done is got. rid of an absolute liability of a. traitor who you knew was a traitor.

>> Uh, and you're almost certainly going to. have them replaced with a really, really. good trader and your chances of winning. have just gone down. I absolutely get. why people are excited because that's. the job they're sent in to do. So, it's. exciting when they do it. But actually, in gameplay terms, it's the worst thing. you can do. I was thinking as a thought. experiment, if you go into that game, because we know the producers cut out, if you're too gameplayy or you talk. about the production process, that's no. fun for anyone. would always cut that. out. But if you start a conversation. which says, so say all the people back.

at the castle had got together and said. it's definitely Hannah, right? Which. feels like a conversation that was had. Well, the thing to do then is keep. Hannah in. The thing to do is just go, we all know it, >> but I'd rather have Hannah there and. we'll get rid of her with four people to. go get rid of her now and suddenly we're. going to have the person who the. traitors think is least likely to for us. to ever find out and is going to be good. at the game. That's the binary choice. that we have. The suspicion of clever. people within this format.

>> is so overridingly the kind of impulse. that they cannot help but indulge and so. they feel like we must get rid of her. because she is clever that we know she's. afraid of it but also she's clever and. we're afraid of it. >> But imagine on that round table if you. just sat there and go okay Hannah I. definitely think it's you. >> Yeah, >> I have no interest in getting rid of you. now. So I don't I do not want you to be. replaced by someone I who I don't know. as a traitor. So I I have this. knowledge. They could have done that, but they I always think. >> that would sort of ruin the game. I. think.

>> it would. >> Yeah. >> That impulse to be afraid of clever. people is so intense that it doesn't. matter. >> Yeah. >> Um. >> but if you did it when there's like. eight people left or something like. that, there's definitely if you had four. of you and you knew for a fact that. someone was a traitor or you were so. certain, why not just say, "Okay, look, we're going to keep you in until there's. just five of us left and then we're. going to get rid of you.". >> I wonder if you'd have to find a way of. doing it covertly. >> I don't know. >> Yeah, maybe they' be interesting. Well, then they we got to the turret. Yes. >> Maya really is on her last nerve with.

James being on his last nerve because. she had to give him a talking to and. say, "I really need someone who wants to. be a traitor. I can't do it on my own.". Him openly admitting he can't do it. He. said, "I can't do it.". >> I know. But yes, I know it is. I know. >> But she said she'd be a great CEO cuz. she said, "We need someone to add. structure.". >> Yeah, that's exactly right. We need. somebody. And she's she's like she's. been tottering since since the very. beginning. >> People who might add structure included. Joanne. [laughter]. >> Interesting. >> Yeah. Great idea. >> Yeah. Kenny and Joe.

>> Now Joe is. >> because of the behavior actually that is. you got his. play because is he playing to rule. himself out? >> I don't know because they'll know that. someone has been recruited. >> Yeah. And the fact that he wasn't. recruited doesn't help him at all. because they don't know he wasn't. And. so he's still he's got now got that. binary 50/50 instead of. >> bizarre thing for him to do. >> Fun though. >> Fun. Yeah. Watchable. At least he. understood it was an entertainment. booking thing to do.

>> Exactly. >> Um and Kenny was the only real choice. here. >> Yeah. And and they they made they I. think pretty much every choice that. traitors made in this episode was a good. choice. They made a good choice to get. rid of Rob. They made a good choice to. >> self-sacrifice. >> to self-sacrifice. They made a good. choice to join the the kind of group. behind Hannah. And they made a good. choice in the person they recruited. The. only thing I might have done. differently, >> but there's two ways this could have. gone is I might have uh murdered instead. of recruited. >> because.

>> I wondered that. >> Well, they're going to let you recruit. anyway at some point, right? They're not. going to let two of you go through the. game. And they're certainly not going to. let one of you go through the game. If. nothing had changed between today and. tomorrow, definitely murder and recruit. tomorrow, right? Just get rid of. someone. Get rid of Michael. Just throw. a proper grenade in there, you know? Just do. >> Michael would have been the one to get. rid of for sure. >> Yeah. Just something, you know, absolutely nuts. So, the whole place was. in absolute turmoil. >> because that they get in complete. turmoil. >> Yeah. and also that the faithful won't.

know for a fact that there was a. recruitment and then wait for a week in. which the shields there's something that. you where you can hide a recruitment. >> Yeah. >> You know, wait and they go, "Oh my god, they must have tried to kill so and so.". >> They are way away from being that. strategic. I have to say they really. are. Um so at least they did the best. thing that they could have done with. within their limited idea of what was. possible to do. Yeah, Kenny is a Oh my. god, that's a great. >> It is a We've always said it's the.

strongest position in the game to be a. very good sort of faithful and then to. be recruited later on. I actually think. he's very very good, but you'd ideally. be recruited in episode 7 for you to be. in the most strong position. >> For the next two um turrets, I would. have murdered and then when there's a. day when there's plausible deniability, i.e. three people have got shields or. whatever it is, you recruit. People. don't know for a fact that you've. recruited and you absolutely get away. with it and you're two days further down. the show which you so your position is.

strengthened because the only reason I. say that that I would murder instead of. recruit is there is no heat at all on. James or Maya. They don't need they. don't need to be defensive. What's. interesting is that with the faithfuls. they something when you get two traitors. they've never discussed or we've. certainly it's never made it into the. edit and I think it would have oh look. twice now there's been traitor on. traitor they never talk about that thing. which is actually very telling if you. look at. >> whose face looks the most ruthful as.

they put their little s or something. they've never discussed traitor on. traitor which is always one of the big. conversational points Yeah, I think it's. slightly harder in this because both the. traitors who've been voted out have not. been voted out, you know, >> 11 N or something. It's they've both. been fairly obvious ones. They've both. been almost unanimous. >> But you would think that you would say, did anyone notice anyone looking kind of. because that is at least. >> evidence or however circumstantial, is. there anyone who looked worse about.

this? You don't see them having those. conversations at all. I think you would. I don't think they're doing it. And. honestly, if you've got two traitors. already, you should be thinking about. >> Well, the person who would be able to do. that, of course, >> is Hannah. >> Yes. >> And and she can no longer do it. >> Well, Miranda could do it, I believe. And we haven't seen that yet. >> A Miranda Bash axis would be if it was a. Miranda bash Kenny axis, that would have. been very handy. But now is uh and that. may well play into the game, but. unfortunately now it has a a slight.

flaw, which is Kenny is a traitor, >> right? We're going to have to talk about. the sort of mental toll which is going. to become a story line because there's. you can tell the Sun have had a couple. of stories about this. They've had James. Acasta and then they had a story um uh. today on Thursday saying, "Oh, one of. the contestants really lost it with the. producers and said, "I need to be able. to call my family in between." Um and. you're like human traffickers. >> Yes. >> Um which is a very very specific line.

Um and someone I think has said that um. it's difficult certainly on the comedy. kind of circuit of all there's been so. many comedians in this there's been a. lot of rumors about like people's sort. of disquire about how stressful people. found it what the toll on them was. >> so James Acast has done an interview. with the times talking about something. else actually but in the course of it he. does address the traitor thing and he. said people who watch the show say it's. only a game and that's good advice not.

just the contestants but also to the. production staff. >> So, by the way, this is we know that. this is going to become more and more of. part of the conversation and the. conversation around the game um and the. coverage of it. Um they don't and what. they're suffering from is that they. don't have they haven't had those kind. of oh my gosh gasping moments where we. know that someone's just betrayed. someone or someone's just done something. that you had with a great kind of comic.

engine like Alan Carr who was also. actually tactically brilliant and such a. brilliant deflector and was able to kind. of create those moments throughout the. game because he just wasn't rumbled. Um, and those kind of moments that of funny. misdirection or things where you're. like, oh my gosh, you haven't at any. point in five episodes of this show. gone, oh wow, did you see that? There's. not been that kind of water cooler wow. moment. What there has been is a very. significant level of kind of paranoia.

and nerves and we we're going to get. much more of that. It's it's tricky. Yeah, I think I well I think a couple of. things with with both of my hats on the. the the producer and and someone you. know who could who could u be in that. castle. I think you got second series. syndrome which is they all they all saw. what happened in the first one. They saw. how enormous it was and you can see that. everyone was slightly more on red alert. right from the beginning. You know like. you watch the first ever celebrity big. brother and it's just like it's like a. holiday camp and then it gets you know.

uh progressively worse. They're in there. They know the stakes. and they know the stakes for careers, for all sorts of things. However famous. you are in there, the show is actually. bigger than pretty much anyone who's. been in it because it's so huge, right? It's it's insanely huge. So, there's a. lot of stakes. It is a celebrity show, but it is made by a reality show. production team. And a reality show. production team, especially Studio. Amber, who they absolutely. >> brilliant. >> best in the business. There are ways and. means of making television. And this is.

the distinction I make when James says. it's just a game and the production team. would do well to remember that. The. thing is it's not just a game. It's a. television show about a game. >> I could not agree more. >> And I am absolutely certain that they. would have overstepped lines which the. talent would rather they hadn't. overstepped because their job is. incredibly difficult. And the second you. you need to keep things as tight as you. possibly can. The schedule has to be. incredibly tight. You cannot have people. conversing with each other off camera or.

off mic. You just can't because then. you're spoiling it for the viewers. You. can't make the the the show. You have to. be able to you have to have every single. thing in your kit apart to tell the. story of what's happening. >> And you can't call your family because. you've been told in the rubric of the. show before you go on it and before you. sign the contract that that's not that's. part of the game. >> Yeah. I kind of think that's the one bit. where I'm on the side of the talent. which is absolutely sequester people. Absolutely. They can't talk to each. other. I do think there's a world in. which you can loosen up some of those.

rules a little bit when you talk to. people who are on it. If it if it was. me, yeah, I absolutely understand. >> as a producer, this is my baby. I want. it to be a big hit. I'm delivering. something for the BBC. I'm delivering. something for 10 million people rather. than for 20 people. Uh that I want. everything as tight as possible. I don't. want anything to go wrong. You've seen. how many moving parts there are in the. show. It's crazy. But I would say, >> but I do think I do think that you know, you don't Listen, don't give I mean, >> you got to toughen up. I'm so sorry. You.

think? >> Yes, I do. Okay. It is like you're being. paid 40 grand for like 10 days work or. something and you're doing it for. disadvantaged people. So, try and. remember your chosen charity and like. just push it down. I mean really. >> I wait yeah. >> it's not it's I honestly think that you. know what it is if you go into the game. and you're like you go into the game a. game called traitors and you you know. you there is a chance that you might be. made a traitor or there is a chance that. you might things might happen to you've.

seen the show. >> I appreciate that things are different. once they are happening to you but in. the end you're a grownup and you've got. to get through it and I I really think. that people. >> but this is because you went to boarding. school. Yes, it is. Yes, it is. I think. you got to toughen up, right? >> But but were you. >> push it down, man? Come on. >> Were you that tough in your first 10. days? >> Yeah, you have to. >> Yeah. No, actually. Yeah, that's shocked. me. I think that the history of reality. television tells us something which is. people are not themselves when they're. put in those environments. And that's.

part of what the producers are doing. You want you can't have people feeling. buttoned up. So, part of the job is. >> they must know this. >> Yeah. There's knowing it and there's. knowing it. You know, it's like when you. watch Big Brother and you're like, "Oh. god, that's a weird behavior." You. think, "Yeah, that's cuz you haven't. seen the other 23 hours and 30 minutes. when they've just been sitting there.". You know, there is a lot of waiting. around on that show. A lot of waiting. around. These are people. pretty much everyone in that castle is. at the top of their game and works. consistently and works with different. teams and has worked on loads and loads.

of different types of television, has. seen how to treat people, how not to. treat people. They will all understand, I think, the need to be sequestered. They all know what they've signed up for. which is by the way you are kind of. locked away. They I think legitimately. at some points might go I think the rule. that you were giving me here is not. benefiting your program. In fact, what. it's actually doing is making a program. worse because it's making me. uncomfortable and I know there's two or. three other people who feel. uncomfortable about it as well. So I. wonder if that's something you could. relax. Now that's the absolute tight.

rope that. >> what is the actual rule that you can. call your family with someone there. um. civilians. You can't call anyone at all. civilians. You know what I mean? The. regular traitors with this uh you can. call people but but that person has to. be able to you know hear both sides of. the conversation. And why would they do. that for example? Well, what if you both. decide to bring the same person and one. person could tell that what if someone's. an intermediary? I mean there's it's but. it's absolute belt and braces stuff and.

if I was on that show I would push back. occasionally and just go I don't think. this is quite right. I think that it is. much more important than I think perhaps. some people in that place think it is. because it is not a game. It's a. television program about a game where. like with a football game you you you're. not allowed to miss anything. You can't. have a bit in a football game where two. people go off down the tunnel, you, you. know, have a penalty against each other. and then come back out. You can't, you.

have to show absolutely everything. Uh, and in the evenings when people are in. hotel rooms next door to each other, you. can't have them communicating because of. course you're going to talk about the. game. It's like juries. They're not. supposed to look up the trial. Yeah. Uh, you know, you just you have to just come. back in the next day completely fresh. But I'm sure somewhere in between those. two competing desires, uh, lines have. been stepped over on both sides. It's. always going to be the case. Uh, and I'm. sure that it's something for a third.

series that will come out. >> Lots more of it is going to come out. But it it it is. >> there's a reason why, you know, 15. million people are watching the show. >> Yeah. >> And it's cuz it's a great game and it's. brilliantly brilliantly brilliantly. produced. >> I agree. >> And brilliantly edited. And if you have. people absolutely at the top of their. game in the production and editing, they. are sometimes going to push you too far. in what it is that they want because. they're brilliant. I mean, it's just. it's just what they do. Uh, and if you.

are someone like James Acastaster who's. very very smart and very very bright, sometimes you're going to not see the. point of that. And sometimes also you're. going to be right. But it's, you know, it's a it's a juggernaut. It's a. juggernaut that's really really hard to. make. It's a juggernaut where you have. to give everything of yourself. And in. between those two things, there's going. to be tension. Of course, there is. And. as someone with a production background, but also as someone thinking how I would. feel if I was in that castle, I. absolutely see both sides of that. But. yeah, I do think I do think we're going. to hear more of that much more.

>> story going forward. And I suspect. there'll be a few production changes for. series 3. >> Right. Well, we must consider that story. developing. Uh we will be back tomorrow. to react to episode 6. >> I cuz we weren't left on a cliffhanger. for once. >> Yes. >> But that means it's going to be an. absolutely jam-packed episode. >> It's going to be jam-packed on Friday, which is good. Um, all right everybody, thanks so much. This was great fun. >> That was great fun. And we look forward. to see what uh what King Kenny gets up. to tomorrow. >> See you tomorrow.