Russell Brand: What The Media Knew

Last Thursday, Russell Brown was. convicted of one count of rape and three. counts of sexual assault. Um, he now. faces a significant custodial sentence. Our number one thoughts are with the. victims of this and how difficult it was. for them to come forward. >> Yeah. How insanely brave, >> how insanely brave, how long it took, and we'll be certainly talking about. >> why. Yeah. >> And the journalism that brought it to. light in the first place because I. firmly believe there would have been no. trial without the journalism. And that. was the Sunday Times and dispatches.

>> and I'm thinking about you know what. particularly we can add and you know. people have spoken about this a lot. I I. can tell you a thing that I think I can. definitely add which is the timeline of. what people knew when. >> inside the industry which I think is. interesting and I think is instructive. >> I think it's been rather flattened over. this last weekend where everyone just. assumes that everyone knew this. extraordinary open secret about um a man. who was able to do this in plain sight. and it simply wasn't the case. And I. think it's clarifying to go back and. look at that timeline and understand the.

sliding scale of when people became. aware of things in the entertainment. industry and also the kind of shows he. did and where he worked and what that. says about the culture. >> and finally sort of were able to say. some of the things that would been you. know that we haven't been able to say. for the last year or so. You know now. he's been sentenced. >> Has Matt suits on? I would say because. it's a bit of a grim week I must say. >> Yeah. Before we go any further, I want. to pay tribute to the journalism of the.

Sunday Times and Channel 4's Dispatches. The Sunday Times, led by Rosen, Charlotte Waist, the investigations. editor. I know something about how long. this took for them to get this over the. line. It is years of painstaking work. It is incredibly expensive, this kind of. journalism. There are masses and masses. of setbacks to it. It's very, very. difficult to do. And people always. saying, why don't you investigate this. or that individual? It's extraordinary. Actually, I was talking to someone who. runs another investigations department.

quite recently and I was actually. putting a story in their direction and. they were saying it's really hard for. us. We are so overstretched. We are. investigating so many people and every. journalist wants these stories to come. to light. Yeah. And every journalist is. trying to put them in different if they. can't afford or don't have the manpower. or woman power to cover these stories. They're trying to put them somewhere. where they might have a chance of being. investigated. But there is a significant. volume of this kind of stuff. And it. isn't just the entertainment industry.

for a second. All different kind of. businesses, all different kind of. highprofile people, but it's very very. difficult to investigate this. And you. can see how hard it is to get stuff to. the level where you can get it over the. line. And I'd also say that, you know, behind that they are supported by people. in those industries as well because the. people in the industries want this stuff. out there as well. >> The rest is entertainment is presented. by Octopus Energy. Now, some of the most. playful characters in family films do. end up dealing with surprisingly serious.

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to talk about this idea of why did. nobody speak up. Okay, as you say, this. investigation's been going on a long. time and a lot of people have spoken to. those journalists and a lot of people. have spoken up and a lot of people have. told their truth. >> I trying to absolutely think back 20 25. years and work out what everyone thought. about Russell Brand at the time. When I. see this thing, oh, everyone knew it was. an open secret, blah blah blah. What do. people actually know about? this is not. the case that clearly some in TV knew.

more and they certainly knew more over. time. Clearly some by the time he became. more sort of um high-profile on the. comedy circuit, we can see that. Katherine Ryan at a certain point made. as clear as she possibly could within. the kind of legal bounds made. accusations. But there has been a huge. amount of retrofitting by a lot of. commentators saying everybody knew in. the same way that people said about. Harvey Weinstein. Oh, everybody knew. Certainly some people knew some things, but there is a sliding scale of when.

they knew it, whether they thought it. was just rumor. I I have to say that I. was, how would you describe it? Entertainment adjacent. I didn't I. didn't realize this. >> Okay. So, from someone, >> he wasn't to my tastes remotely, but. >> from someone who was in the heart of the. comedy and entertainment industry. And. by the way, >> I will argue I'll go on to argue that. Russell Brown was in neither of those. industries. He was in an industry all of. his own. So, he came out in early 2000s. or something. I've never worked with. him, never met him. Right from the. beginning, I thought he was awful. I. thought he's talentless, all of that.

But that's fine. None of that is. illegal, right? Okay. But I'm not. interested in working with him. I can't. think of any actual comedy producer. who'd be particularly interested in. working with him because there's no. there's nothing there. And the only. thing that is there is is himself. He's. not someone who can be collegiate. So, I. definitely knew that about him. He came. along. I sort of knew who he was. He was. working on MTP and things. And I was. like, that's not something that. interests me. gets more famous. You. certainly hear that he is a sleas, right? Yeah. Again, not illegal, not.

nice. Again, not someone you would want. to work with, not someone who I can. think of anyone I know who particularly. want to work with, but the guys are. sleeves and the guy is, you know, sex. obsessed and the guy runs around with a. group of people who have that same. aesthetic. Again, nothing legal, heard. nothing. There comes a point and it's. 2017 I think possibly 2018. >> when and I think because. >> is that the year. >> because of the me too movement I think. people have been emboldened actually to. be more public within the industry about. the things that had happened and that's.

the year. >> that's when people knew when they had. heard stories from people they. absolutely believed and absolutely. trusted and so everyone in the industry. goes okay it is instructive that he has. not worked on British television since. 2018. Yeah. >> Right. He has not had a single gig on. British TV for eight years after that. the roast battle, funny enough, where. Katherryine Ryan came straight out and. said to his face, "I think you're a. predator." Right. That was the point. where if you want to use the expression. everybody point, he was fairly swiftly. off the show. >> Yeah. I mean that that is the I mean the.

truth is he hasn't done very many shows. on British television. >> No. >> You know the stuff he's done has been. Russell Brand le. He's done his tours. he's done. He was never really a. standup, but he would do stuff that just. is on his personality. Then we go to. Hollywood and he would jump from company. to company to company and channel to. channel to channel and you know these. things tend to be slightly walled. citadels. So. >> I think in the same way that an American. criminal can commit the same crime in. Kansas and Tennessee and that you know. in the 70s and the federal government. never put things together. So he he was.

I think very adept at moving from place. to place to place. There came a point a. reckoning in 2017 2018 for forgive me if. I can't give a absolutely specific date. when the industry understood that this. was a person who had committed illegal. acts right from that moment he doesn't. work in British TV and from that moment. people in British TV start talking to. journalists yeah. >> and you start that very very very long. journey you see the insanity of how long. that's that journey has taken he's got.

very very good lawyers uh you know the. very nature of sexual crimes means they. are very very difficult to prove. >> A tiny percentage of rapes yeah. >> are reported for various reasons. >> and of those that are reported. >> an unbelievably tiny percent ever even. get to the stage a stage of a trial and. a smaller percentage even of that gets. to the stage of a conviction. >> Yeah. So I would I would say just just. as a starting point the idea that. everyone knew yes everyone knew from. 2017 2018 and that's the point at which.

he did he he did not work again and. that's when he scuttled off to America. Uh and that is also the time at which he. which he started becoming a wellness. guru and he started protecting himself. with the people on the right because he. jumped from the left to the right. >> Yes. Because by the way he knew that. people knew. >> Yes. >> At that point because he was confronted. about it by people in the industry. that's why you go to Florida. >> and the people around him were. confronted uh about it as well and you. know in terms of enablers we can talk a. little bit more about the culture of of. enablement certainly in the early part.

of his career but I think he was also. surrounded by people an abuser is an. abuser is is an abuser and a groomer is. a groomer and they groom the people. around them as well and they use their. charm and they use their power and you. know so I think lots of people around. him. >> were the last people for whom the scales. fell from their because they had too. much. fun this kind of messianic figure that. they s. in the court case when he said oh no one.

will come and speak for you will they he. said no no one will come and speak to. you these were people who are incredibly. close to him and they all worked out and. they were the last people to work out. because often the case they were the. last people to work it out but in TV. people have worked it out in 2017 2018. and from that moment on he has not. worked and from that moment on people. have tried to support these incredibly. brave women who came forward to give. their accounts and as you say the the. work of the journalists but that is how. long that took 8 years before thankfully. uh he's now in prison for his crime.

>> I think it's important to understand. that because otherwise saying oh. everybody knew is is a is a kind of. pointless thing to say. You know, clearly the left had an issue with. overlooking aspects of his the way he. spoke about women and you know, but. people talked. I never went to this. thing because I, as I said, I wasn't a. fan of his, but people they they had he. was invited into the Guardian editorial. conference. He kind of guest edited a. new statesman. Those people did not. think that he was a rapist. No. And it.

is crass to suggest that they did. And. by the way, if you at the time thought. he was a rapist, then would have been a. really great moment to write an article. about it. But you didn't because. actually it wasn't possible. You know, it's difficult to know whether things. are rumors or I personally hadn't even. heard any of those rumors at all. I I. was when the first story in the Sunday. Times came out and you heard about all. these kind of taxis going everywhere and. all these girls like I was like my god, you know, I didn't most people are not. actually at the epicenter of completely. open celebrity gossip. Most people who.

work in the media don't know about all. these things. They're just getting on. with their particular beat, their. particular patch. you assume in general. that that isn't particularly happening. and so I think just to now make it part. of some kind of. >> intertitled turf war there are lots and. lots of different people who have been. investigated by you know the guardian of. investigated people uh lots of different. titles have investigated people we all. know it takes a very very long time to. me a thing that I found particularly. shocking is Russell Brand's lawyer who's.

a a KC called Ian. >> Winter. what he said to Rosin, who as I say led. the investigation at the Sunday Times. where it could be heard after the. verdict. He said, "I hope you're pleased. with yourself." And she said she was. pleased that justice had been served. And he said, "Well, it wasn't. You. [ __ ] it. Congratulations.". He has reported himself to the bar. council, which certainly saved some. other people the bother. And I have to.

say again, there would not have been a. trial without that Sunday Times and. Dispatches investigation. We know how. these things work. >> and without the victims coming forward, which is. >> but but without the victims coming. forward to them, which begins something. where other people feel emboldened, a. different kind of emboldening where. other people think, well, if other. people have said it, then maybe I will. disclose what happened to me. And I. firmly believe that the trial would not. have taken place had those. investigations not been the starting.

point because the people who came. forward and performed the cases in the. trial came forward because these things. were made public. And this is a very. very big part of why we don't have. anonymity for people who are accused of. sexual crimes is that it's in order for. other people because we know how this. works. >> Well, because most most most sexual. offenders are serial sexual offenders. >> Yes. And you know if if if you don't. know that that this person is a serious. sexual offender, it's useful to find out. because it contextualizes what happened. to you. Uh and also you feel a you know.

the powerlessness of being assaulted by. somebody who has fame, charisma, charm. and lawyers and an industry sort of. around them that seemingly fates them at. all times. It seems absolutely hopeless. You know, you seem like one brick and. you can't make a, you know, wall out of. one brick. have to you have to gather. them all together. You have to put them. all together and start building your. wall. And that's a really really long. process. And I'm I'm lost in admiration. for everyone who did it. But the fact.

that it's taken 8 years tells you. everything you need to know about how. difficult that is and how easy it is uh. on the other side of it for someone like. Russell Brand to get away with what he. did. As I say, from 2017 onwards, I I. think the writing was on the wall and. people were not going to stop. There are. enough people and as you say people like. Katherine Ryan and this incredible. WhatsApp group of female comics who who. are again they're very good you know. they talk about sleazy guys and stuff. like that is again it's usually not. something illegal has happened right at. this stage everyone goes something.

illegal has happened and that's the. point where nobody stopped that's the. point where everyone's like we have to. get this guy this is absolutely. unacceptable it's done you recognize. that he's like so many predators and so. many abusers he'd worked out. vulnerabilities he'd worked out ways in. which he could do things that anyone. talking to anybody else. >> and he existed in a very specific. culture which I think is really. important trying to sort of as always. when you're judging it by the kind of. morray of today it seems ridiculous but. you forget how toxic the naughties was.

as a decade for women and and that's. where you know the beginning of this. offending starts in fact starts before. that but that kind of 1990s ladism which. then had to give way to sort of ladetism. where you couldn't beat them So you had. to join them and you had to be like. that. Women had to become complicit in. it. >> Women had to become complicit of it. >> That gave way itself, I think, to a sort. of version of sex positivity where you. could be mainstream and literally just. talk out loud about your sex life in.

these particular ways. And it was sort. of like, oh, we've all grown up. We've. all shaken off the sort of stifling. moray of the 20 20th century, and we can. just talk like this because this is how. we all really are, aren't we? And as so. often whenever there's a wave, men, powerful men, manage to co-opt that to. to fit their lifestyle. >> I can only describe it as a sort of. borrowed queerness because it's it was. interesting that one of the victims. said, "I thought Russell Brown was gay.". There's a sort of really insidious way.

of kind of disporting yourself that was. sort of like, "I'm camp. This is all. just a joke. Am I actually even. straight?" which really served as a. cover for lots of those guys who went. way beyond the boundaries of um what was. actually acceptable and clearly in this. case crossed into criminality and I. don't think that's the last we'll be. hearing about this but there was a. certain sort of as I say a borrowed. queerness that was a fake cloak to mask. what was really happening [snorts].

>> yeah so the question of how did he get. work at all in the industry I think is a. very very interesting one I don't. believe I certainly don't know anyone. Perhaps there were people out there who. knew he'd committed criminal offenses. My view is most people thought he was. just a unpleasant sleas. Okay, that's. what most people thought and almost. everyone didn't work with him. As I say, he didn't do a lot of he didn't do any. sort of big entertainment shows or big, you know, comedy shows. He did his own. stuff and he do MTV. The I think the. weird thing in the middle of it is his. Radio 2 show, which we can get on to and.

talk about that. And that's a particular. aberration that comes from a a. particular place. But you know, I think. that most people would have zero. interest in working with him and not. because it was like they found him. distasteful although they did. It's just. why would you? What's he giving you? He's not giving you anything. I I've. sort of read various reports this week. people saying I mean you listen he was a. brilliant standup right. >> he was not challenge. >> but he but he just wasn't he was he was. a force of nature right? He was a he was. he was 100% a force in nature. One human.

being. >> cultural grotesque really in the all. senses of the world. >> like a lot of people like a lot of. control freaks everything has to go. through him. He can only it has to be. everyone working for him as an acolyte. you know in terms of comedy in terms of. you know what he would do you know any. format that he would do had to just be. oh no this is just me talking you know. so Ian's absolutely made for the world. of YouTube and these channels he's doing. now because he is completely in charge. of that at all times. So I don't know. anyone who's particularly interested in. working with him. There's a subgroup of. people of course who did work for him.

and I think we should talk uh maybe we. go for a break. We'll talk about. specifics of different shows that he did. and why he did those shows and why he. was chosen to do those shows. But I. would say now 95% of the industry has. zero interest in working with him but 5%. of the industry is a lot of people and. those people did want to work with him. So I think you I think we can explain. where his career came from and then. where his career went. If in this first. half we can nail anything, it's this.

when everybody knew. >> Yeah. >> Everybody absolutely rallied behind. getting this story out and everybody is. punching the air this week that this. story has happened and that he finally. is going to be in prison for his crimes. and all of this stuff of oh where's the. where's the evidence? bears this. I I. cannot begin to tell you the joy with. people who've been in this industry and. understand the things that he did. The. joy that justice has been done that.

comes from inside this industry. >> Okay. Well, let's go to a break now and. after that we will carry on talking. about this and a bit more about the. industry and the places he found a. hearing. [music]. Yeah, welcome back everyone. Um, we're. still talking about Russell Brand and so. I've outlined in the first half what I. understand when people say everyone knew.

when when I felt that that was the case. only when I knew and when I felt that. other other people knew but clearly. there would have been a smaller group of. people who knew other things at. different times. So it's instructive to. look at his career and how he built it. and where he built it. Um and you know. he starts at MTV uh then he moves on to. channel 4 keeps moving actually he keeps. moving between and place to place and. and and as someone that's been in uh the. world of media for a very very long time. I think some sometimes you can see. television as a monoculture and it's not. it's sort of a series of walled cities.

and actually it is you know people at. MTV you know might think one thing and. then he goes to channel 4 and actually. that sort of gets lost and then people. at channel 4 might think one thing and. that gets lost because he goes to radio. which was an insane that I think uh and. then he moved somewhere else and then as. I say he doesn't really work for any. traditional production company he. doesn't work on any traditional shows um. he he does his own things he's his own. you know HR from from there on in you. know. >> and he works on those shows really those.

kind of elements of zoo shows if that. term still means anything MTV is very. much like that where you know what you. can sort of say anything big brothers. big mouth it it's a kind of a a kind of. lentious spin-off. It's a place where. you can say the things you can't say on. the main show. And he tries to be that. outsider character always. And. >> in order for the show to exist as a sort. of I don't know a proper counterpoint or. as a proper sort of after hours version.

of the other show, he needs to be. different. He needs to be weird. So. again, there's that thing that can cover. it can that covers things and it blinds. people sometimes around the person in. question to to what's actually. happening. >> Yeah. And I think if this is interesting. psychologically at all and most actors. will tell you and certainly it's the. case in television. any production if it's a drama a TV show. will tend to take its temperature from. the biggest star on that production. Now. in a movie that might be the director. but more normally it would be the you.

know the biggest star in it. In. television, it's almost always the. talent. So, a presenter will sort of set. the tone for how a show is run. Uh, and. so, you know, if you got calm, kind, nice, funny presenters, that tends to be. what the show is. It tends to be quite. fun to do. If you got slightly mad. maverick, oh my god, where's this guy. coming from? Presenters. They can create. an atmosphere. uh in which they can hide in plain. sight. They can they go, "No, this is. the show. We're crazy on this show, and. everyone who works with we're. transgressive. >> We've all got to be crazy. We're all.

going to go out every night. all going. to, you know, go out drinking. We're all. going to go out to the Grouch show. We're all going to do X, Y, and Zed. Uh, and, you know, that that comes from um. the the sort of lead protagonist in any. show as to why he was attractive to. broadcasters. I think a number of. things. I think he sort of there's an. idea he's a comedian. He's not. I mean, he's not. There's I don't think there's. any standup who would say this guy's a. stand-up comedian. He's one of those. guys who he wasn't anything. So, he kind. of he as a result. Yeah. >> Hate to say it. um this is an industry.

that's painfully middle class and I. think he came along as something that. appeared to be an authentic. working-class voice and that was very. very very attractive to people as. someone from uh a British working-class. background. I tell you now he's not an. authentic working-class voice. I've got. lots of clever working-class people in. my family uh and they don't have to put. on the airs and graces that he does. But. it was catnip to a certain type of. commissioner for sure. uh and in a world. where you wanted things to be noisy and. as you say this kind of zoo thing he. could definitely do that. So, you've got.

this person who feels like, "Oh, we got. this authentic working-class voice and. oh my god, he's so funny." Uh, and god, everything is crazy when he's around. And that there was people sort of liked. that in in the ' 90s and early 2000s. You know, this is the era of TFI Friday. and everything had to be crazy, everything had to be mad. Everything had. to be manic uh to hide the fact that. sort of nothing particularly funny or. smart was going on. Uh, and so he fit. that bill perfectly. He found an. audience for sure. you know, people. people did like him as a TV presenter.

and his uh his books, which we're going. to get on to, by the way, because I I. had not read them and reading extracts. from them. >> Oh my god, I hadn't read them either. >> Anyway, but we we'll talk about that. But that's why he was um appealing. It. gets to the stage, one thing to remember, he hasn't done. very many TV shows, so he moved on very. quickly. I'm going to do books. I'm. going to go to America. Uh I am going to. become a political guru. The male said. Russell Brown convicted and you know he. pulled the wall over the left sides and. everyone was furious with the male. I.

think it's fair enough to say that. that's exactly what happened. If. >> and I remember thinking why I tell you. what at that stage fairly in fairly. short order everyone just talked about. politics all the time. You had the big. political shocks of 2016. By the time. he'd sort of decided he was going to be. this person who went on News Night and. told people not to vote and I mean was. just moronic about these sort of things. And I remember. I very so rarely went into Guardian. office ever, but I remember sitting I. was sitting on the sofa talking to the.

then deputy editor of the Guardian. Um, and I was saying and I was saying. something about Russell Brand because it. it was just sort of so ridiculous that. he was becoming this person for the left. and particularly actually in a way the. Guardian was were kind of really into. it. And I do think there's something. rather sad that of those sort of people. on the left that they don't really know. any celebrities and if somebody notices. them, they're so completely pathetically. grateful that it's exciting. >> And and also, by the way, they're also. seduced by the fact that you felt like.

an authentic working-class voice, I. think. But but you know that's because. they're very middle class. But who who. should come who should come past who. someone who also as far as I know didn't. go into the office very often but Owen. Jones who said and I remember the deputy. editor saying to him oh you know it's. wonderful that he's going to come and do. I can't remember what it was it was it. was it that he was going to come to. conference or was it he was going to. that he was going to do the this thing. with Ed Milliband which I'm also going. to talk about in a second. And um Owen. Jones said well I mean you know it's. apparently it's you know it's because of.

something of mine he read and he was so. clearly delighted by the idea that. Russell Brown whereas I said yeah and I. remember sitting there saying yeah but. like the deadline for people to register. to vote has has now passed. So what is. what is the actual point of this? This. is like waiting for a celebrity. This is. like waiting for Mariah if you ever. interviewed a celebrity Owen you'll know. that this is the only time I've ever met. Owen Jones in my entire life. You'll if. you've ever interviewed a celebrity, you'll know that you'll sit down in the. lobby waiting eight hours for Mariah. Carey because that's they're operating.

on celebrity time. He's operating on. celebrity time, which is now he's why. he's finally told his acolytes that, oh, actually, no, you should vote after the. deadline to vote in the 2015 election. has passed. Why do we give a [ __ ] about. this guy? I mean, really, why do we give. a [ __ ] Anyway, as it turned out, there. was more to come because he got Ed. Milliban to come round to his flat. I. remember just seeing this all these pat. photos of like it's like oh my god. I. mean if you don't know that you're going. to lose the election at that point then. any if you on the vibes of it alone once.

you're ascending the stairs to Russell. Brown's kitchen okay you are screwed. You really are. And in that interview it. was so I remember thinking how are we. acclaim I wrote about it at the time. saying how are we acclaiming someone. like this because he was saying things. like he said to Ediban since suffrage. since the right to vote what has. meaningfully occurred that is a direct. quote and I remember thinking and Ed. Milliban was sitting there explaining to. him things about the creation of the NHS. and you know which he had to acknowledge. and I was thinking this this is so.

moronic the idea that just because this. guy has lots of followers on Twitter. when it was such a thing about Twitter. as well. It was the that platform that. corrosive platform in so many ways that. because someone had whatever million. followers he had on Twitter that those. people might be marshaled to vote in a. general election. It's like well. something we at least know now is how. many hundreds of millions does Taylor. Swift or whatever it doesn't make any. difference. Okay, it doesn't move the. dial at all. It was thought of by people. on the left as maybe a route into.

people, young people who don't vote. And. it's really comes from the fact that. they don't understand those people. either. And they don't understand how. any of it works. And if they think that. this guy was going to move the dial in. any way in a general election in this. country, then they understood nothing. about politics. the fear of that amongst. very middle class kind of news media. organizations and I include the BBC on. that the reason you have him on news. night or you have him on the to edit the. news statesman is you think are we. missing something a lot of those people. just probably thought are we missing.

something is this guy some you know pied. piper to a disenfranchised youth and the. answer if you'd given it 3 seconds of. thought was no but the fear of missing. something and the fear of looking out of. touch was a big motivating factor And. what it actually revealed was how little. they understood the country. And I have. to say that many of the political shocks. that would go on to happen in the next. couple of years. You can see this is how. little people understand about what's. actually out there.

>> By the way, I would say to all of those. things, tick, tick, tick. I think you're. absolutely right. I don't think any of. those people knew or even suspected he. was a sexual abuser. Right. It was it. was just this is how somebody like that. rises. >> Yeah. you know, because they get found. out. One, by the way, when I mean found. out, the TV is like, I don't think. you're for us. You're not particularly. good at doing TV and so you move on to. something else and then when they find. you out and they're like, oh, actually, you you're you sort of promised slightly.

more than you showed. Then you move on. to somewhere else. You know, that's why. he does TV then Hollywood, then live, then political, then turns to the right. Okay. You constantly move on because you. disappoint the people that uh that that. that you left behind. Well, as Rosin. said in her sort of long read that she. wrote about it this weekend, he was a. shape shifter. >> Yeah. And by the way, abusers are. they're like they're like water through. concrete. They understand uh anyone. who's vulnerable. They absolutely take. advantage of those people and then they. move on and they move on. They move on.

and they absolutely did that. >> Here's the big question. Should we have. known? Could we have known? Could we. have worked it out? Is there a culture. that we can inculcate now? Is there a. culture that we have now where his. career would not happen again? So we can. go back all we like and postrationalize. it and say this that the other and I. hope we've given some factual things and. interesting things but none of this is. for anything if this career can happen. again today. Uh and that's an. interesting question as you say like he. came up in that you know sort of late.

90s early naughties. Uh and if I think. about. someone who was you know if I think. about someone starting in television or. or content creation now that era would. would be the same as when I started in. television something that happened in. 1965. So we have to remember that we are. old and lots of things happen and lots. lots of things change. >> but I still see an awful lot of things. in that culture that we still see now. and certainly where talent is concerned. Well, even the calling of Tim Davyy.

tried to stop that at the BBC, calling. it talent and that thing that as you. said that where the the talent becomes. the figurehead and the presiding. intelligence of the show is perhaps. unhelpful. >> Yeah. But unfortunately, we live in a. culture where there's even it has become. even more monetizable to be someone who. is recognizable and someone who has a. following and someone who people want to. watch. you know, that's the whole of our. industry now is people building follower. accounts, is, you know, content creators. building huge audiences. Uh, and so that.

definitively hasn't changed. Talent. hasn't become uh less important, it's. become more important. This thing with. the book and this thing with his public. pronouncements and his and and and the. way he talked about sex very openly, which you look back now, you think was. definitively is hiding in. >> Yeah. >> plain sight. Because it's anytime. someone would complain about him, he go. yeah know I talk about it all the time. >> and people go oh yeah no I suppose. actually he no actually he does he does. he says I he does sleep with a lot of. women so of course of course you know he.

slept with this woman I absolutely get. it and again it's very. >> calculated. >> you know it's it's how you hide the one. person who definitively knew all the way. through he was a sexual abuser was. Russell Brand right he's the one person. who absolutely knew at all times that he. was a sexual abuser and that if people. knew what he had done, he would go to. prison, right? So he knows that. throughout his whole career. So. everything he does is to try and deflect. from that and his career is an object. lesson in how successful you can be in. doing that. Uh and so the question for.

us now is if you have the same person. doing that now, if you have the same. person who's 24 and starting that now, are there things in place to stop that? Now, we talked before about um. television being sort of a walled garden. and you know people in documentaries. don't really talk to people in uh. entertainment and people at MTV don't. really talk to people at channel 4 and. there are you know there are the borders. are porous but you know it's it's it it. can be quite siloed and that feels like. we have much more of that. >> now.

>> because there are so many different. platforms and so many different ways to. build um a fan base and it feels like. the parasocial relationship uh that uh. content creators and and that presenters. have now is even more powerful than it. was. And I think that. >> one of the key things about Russell. Brand, he did live a life without HR. really. >> Yeah. >> Uh and you know, most of his appearances. on TV even in the kind of 10 years. before he finally disappeared as himself. or on chat shows or on, you know, doing. standup things where he doesn't have a. contract with anyone, things where he's.

not in an office, things where he. doesn't have a producer, he's just he's. he's just himself. So he's he's HRless. Uh, and I think you know a lot of. content careers now are going to be. built by the HR list. Yes, if you know. what I mean. People who don't actually. have anyone that they answer to. Um, so. what you'd hope is that we have a. generation coming along who would not. find acceptable what we found acceptable. in the early naughties. And if you know. someone like Russell Brown would have.

come on stage and tell some of the jokes. he did, it it wouldn't just be like, "Oh. yeah, okay. I suppose that's like you. know in a world of loaded and stuff I. suppose you can do that joke if you want. you know now whe whether that would be. an immediate red flag or whether. actually because of the manosphere and. this that or the other you can sort of. do that comedy again. >> I think you can and I think that people. always will will always want to find. their way through and the idea that this. tendency. >> it has been sort of stamped out and I I.

don't I don't think is the case at all. and as you say almost everyone big now. is HRless. It's, you know, it seems. quite oldfashioned to work for legacy. media and legacy television companies um. and and to be subject to their various. processes. Most people are just not like. that. >> Yeah. So, let's go back to the a couple. of times where where he was hred. >> Yes. >> Okay. So, BBC radio. So, that's the. absolute zenith of okay, this guy is. going to be the heart of British. culture. He's on suddenly is on radio.

He's done MTV. He's done Big Brothers. Big Mouth. And suddenly, you know, Radio. 2 is a huge deal, right? It's the heart. of Britain. Uh, and he was put in the. heart of that. And again, here's the. reason there, you go through certain. times in your culture where certainly if. you're radio 2, you go, we need younger. listeners. We need a more working-class. listener. We need a maverick to shake. this place up. Uh, and suddenly right in. the middle of culture, there's there's. this guy who represents all of those. things. And so I sort of understand.

giving him a job, right? I get it. Why. not? I don't understand keeping him in. that job when you look at transcripts of. some of the things he said, some of the. things he did in uh interviews, some of. the ways uh he behaved because he has. signed a contract there. >> Yeah. >> And you do have reporting procedures. there. Uh and you know, you do have duty. of care to your staff there and it seems. like he trespassed over those lines a. number of times. And again it's you know. most of us work in offices you know we. can we we see stuff happen. So suddenly.

he's on the he's in a place where there. is HR and there are reporting procedures. and you get the um the situation with. Jonathan Ross where they make the call. to Andrew Sax because Russell Brand has. slept with his granddaughter. So they do. that yada yada which to anyone with half. a brain is deeply unpleasant. He is. finally in a place where that is not. acceptable and he I mean he would have. been fired. He resigns I think but would. have been fired. >> He immediately resigns rather than.

submit to any procedures. >> Procedures. Exactly. Because for lots of. reasons Russell Brand does not want to. be investigated by anybody or spoken to. by anyone. So the BBC um get rid of him. I think it's the last time he was in any. situation where someone else could fire. him. You know, I think he thought, "Oh, maybe I could maybe actually I could be. right in the heart of culture." He. thinks, "Oh, no. Do you know what? Actually, this is a little bit too. exposing for me. Don't forget all the. way through, he's the only one he really. really knows. >> He's the only we know for a fact knows. He knows he's a. >> he knows what he does. >> A sexual abuser. Exactly. And so that's.

too that's that's too much for him. So. off he goes and then does a series of. things which uh you know he feels he has. more control over it. Instructive that. he writes books because you have control. over every word there. I don't know who. his editor was but I don't imagine he. was a easy to edit. In the books he. repeats the same trick which is and you. know what I didn't read the books they. were sort of phenomenon like they s they. sold a lot of copies these books but. reading them. >> reading but it feels like that must have. been a foreign country that doesn't feel. like the country.

>> if you I had never read them I agree. with you and I read big extracts this. weekend. >> and I just thought my god I mean this. the uselessness of it the like the like. unedited I mean was he edited if that. was edited I you know. >> I imagine not. >> not it was just extraordinary but it. shows you of the sort of primacy he must. have had to say I'm literally going to. just fart out this absolute nonsense and. it's going to be bound and it will sell. millions. >> Hold who are the uh publishers of that.

I think that. given the conversation that's been had. since 2018 and given what was in those. books, that's that's a book you might. have pulled from the shelves. >> a little before last week. >> A little before last week. You know, I. really think that I'm glad they have. pulled it from the shelves, but I I. found that extraordinary. But anyway, so. you know, the last time he's ever HR is. the BBC. Uh, you know, he he has to. resign. I mean, he he probably shouldn't. have been there in the first place, but. the culture at the time is, "Oh, great.

We got a laddy workingass maverick. talent who no one seems to be able to to. contain." And you know, he's he he he. was able to rise up through the industry. without anyone really sort of ever. getting any bang for their buck from him. because he's just very good at going. into a new world and telling people I'm. incredibly famous in this old world and. everyone thinks I'm amazing, but maybe. I'll jump ship over here. >> Uh and it's I mean, listen, it's a it's. a trick,

>> which is what he's now done with the. conservative right in America, which is. all the places to be able to hop over. Um but he has and to find God and to. Yeah. I mean to be baptized by Bear. Grills in the temps. >> in the year 2024. >> Yeah. I mean immediately after so 2018. Roast Battle on Comedy Central was the. last show he did. Yeah. >> Right. And I think probably everyone who. worked with him on that regrets it now. other than Katherine Ryan who at least. used it to sort of air some of the. things that were becoming known. It's.

instructive that every single thing he. did after that was in America and it was. all just chat shows and podcasts and he. started with slightly kind of. progressive E1s and then very very. quickly gets writer and writer and. writer because again don't forget he. knows he's a sexual abuser after 2018. He knows that other people know he's a. sexual abuser and he knows that people. are coming for him, right? He's. definitely thinks he can fight it off. cuz he's got lawyers. So he's fighting. it off with lawyers. Uh then he's also. thinking is there a way culturally I can.

make myself safe? And of course the. first thing you do is just say there is. an elite who are out to get us all. They. are lying to us all the time about. everything. Don't trust I mean come on. Don't trust what you hear in the media. What are we going to hear? What is it. you think we're going to hear that we. shouldn't trust? He doesn't care about. vaccines and stuff like that. He cares. about one thing which is he's a sexual. abuser and he knows people know. That's. the thing he doesn't want you to trust. in the media. Everything else he. couldn't give a toss about. doesn't. believe in any of those things. >> It's become so extraordinary to me and.

if you want to talk about and people. talk about progress and people have. talked about progress in terms of this. case, but I would say we've gone so far. back that to say that sexual abuse. allegations are not just monetizable on. the right. They're not just monetizable. They are politically advantageous in. some ways is to me so extraordinary. We. we could never have said we would not. have said this 10 years ago 15 years ago. but now we do say this and I think that. his journey there suggests you know. everyone is saying well this couldn't. happen now either people are saying this.

couldn't happen now or people should. have known well I think something much. worse is happening now which is that he. found a home and there are many people. out there defending him this weekend and. will continue to do so because he found. a home somewhere in a culture where. actually you can monetize those. allegations and You can make them. politically advantageous. You can be the. victim. >> Yeah. And his the last yearly accounts. of his company, I think he's made four. million, you know, and all all through. subscriptions and all through sort of. early access to, you know, his his.

content. Yeah. So, he went he goes all. right. He goes religious as well. I I. slightly feel for Bear Grills. I saw. Bill Grills talking. He said, "I I. believed he was genuine about his. religious conversion, and Bear Grills is. clearly a very religious person, and. that's important to him." And you know. now I think he probably understands a. bit more about the man. >> But what it just looked like when you. saw a picture like that of three men. hugging in the river is that even very. highprofile men even the chief scout as. Barrett grills at the time was. >> will support other men in these you know.

if you want to help go and work at a. victim's charity for the afternoon. I. understand Christian charity, but he. would have been some way down my list of. people who should receive it in such. public fashion. And I'm afraid that is. part of the culture. We live in a. culture where 27 women have made. allegations of rape or sexual assault. against the leader of the free world. And I don't see that mentioned in every. article about him. And women can see. this and they have to sort of accept. this. So I don't feel. >> it's very difficult to feel like there's.

been significant progress. Yeah. despite. what has happened because I think that. all the ways that culture has split and. atomized and polarized means that there. is always a place for these people even. if they have to move through all the. different silos they'll find one. eventually that will stick by them and. he's got one right now even now. >> Yeah. And I do think it's it's. instructive to look at his career as a. series of him just moving on so stuff. doesn't catch up with him you know just. running to the next place and the next. place and the next place. I'm delighted.

he finally ran out of room, but I think. and it's so easy to to postrationalize, but you look you look at his career and. you see, as I say, he's the one who knew. and everything he does, you think, "Oh, I see. You're you're you're running and. running and then you're hiding and. hiding and you're covering yourself in. kind of layers of disguise and layers of. camouflage and peacock feathers. Uh, and. then you're disappearing to another. country." When don't forget 2018, he. knew people. That's the point. He knew. people knew. That's the point where he.

knew that people knew. And you know, it's frustrating to see him being over. there and making this money and being. fated by people. But as I say, there. were huge cheers when the guilty verdict. came down and when the sentence came. through as well. Um, can we change anything? As you say, I. think our culture is not in a place. where things have got particularly. better. I hope that the generation who. comes along are in a place that's. different to the generation of young. women in the ' 90s and and and 2000s. I.

suspect in a lot of lots of industries. it still isn't, but you hope that that. there are there are more avenues to to. to deal with these people. But in a. completely freelance industry where you. can move from job to job to job, it is. quite easy to hide. And Lisa and Andy. quite rightly said look we have to deal. with talent and the BBC and people right. it's they are not the people they are. not the people yeah it is people who can. move from job to job to job from country. to country to country project to project.

to project uh and never find somebody. who is responsible for them at any given. time that's the way that you would hide. in today's culture you know that is the. thing that you would do uh and you know. I think it it'd be worth you know the. department of culture you know looking. at that cuz I I do think it's very very. interesting and of course the easiest. lever to pull is you know BBC ITV. channel 4 I mean and and of course and. you must do that as well. >> but I do think just this idea. >> something much bigger is happening. Yeah, exactly. And also, and this is.

Lisa Nandy of course talks about. television because she's the culture. secretary, but this is happening in lots. of other industries all the time as. well. And in some ways, it's useful. that this is a famous person because. suddenly we can talk about it. We can. talk about it a lot, but it's happening. in lots and lots of industries. Again, just go back to the bravery of the. people who spoke out because it's so. hard and you think about the people in. years gone by who've got away with it, you know, and the people who were never. able to speak out.

>> We're still getting away with it. There. are so many ongoing investigations into. high-profile public figures happening in. newspapers and TV news outlets. >> Yeah. >> Right now. Right now. And some of them. will get over the line and some of them. won't. And even the ones that get over. the line, maybe nothing will happen. because it's still very, very difficult. to get to where we've got now where. someone just couldn't outrun it any. longer. >> Yeah. And as you say, some people get. away with it. You hope at least they. know they're being investigated. So you. hope at least they're looking over their. shoulder. You hope at least they're.

living with the paranoia that Russell. Brands have to live with for the last. eight years thinking, I wonder if. they'll send me to prison. Well, guess. what? They did. >> Well, I'm sorry that that was a rather a. grim episode, but an unavoidably grim. one. I would also say anyone who has any. questions, just write them in because. because we can talk about this on a Q&A. episode as well. If there are specifics. that we've talked about that that where. you feel we haven't covered things or. things that you've experienced um that. you think are instructive, please feel. free to add to this because no one's got. all the answers.

>> and I fear there will be much more to. say in these kind of areas quite soon. anyway. So we I'm sure we'll continue to. talk about this, but thank you so much. We'll be back with a light and frothy. Q&A. >> on Thursday. >> See you then. >> See you then.