Russell Brand’s Bible Study

We're going to be discussing. Russell Brand's book tour. Mhm. How is. it going? How is it really going? What. else we going to talk about? >> We are going to talk about a British. television success story. I'm going to. talk about Channel 5. They're called 5. really, but if you say 5, people think. you mean the boy band, so it gets. confusing. So, I'll call them Channel 5. for now. But, their drama, which anyone. who watches 5 will know if they've. they've had 3 or 4 years of absolute. banger after banger. So, we're going to. talk about how and why they've managed.

to achieve that. And we're also going to. talk about the Met Gala, which this year. is sponsored by Lauren Sanchez and Jeff. Bezos. >> Friends of the podcast. Friends of the. podcast. Um and we're going to talk. about how it, in my view, represents a. complete defeat for every single thing. Anna Wintour, the legendary editor of. Vogue, ever stood for. Talking about. complete defeats of everything we've. ever stood for, shall we talk about. Russell Brand's book? Russell Brand has.

a new book out, which is called How to. Become a Christian in 7 Days. The. answer's not what you think it is. The subtitle is May Take 50 Years of Sin. and Fuck-Ups to Get Started. >> [gasps]. >> Language, please. >> Language Language indeed. That's on the. actually on the cover, but with an. asterisk. We should say before we go on that. Russell Brand in the UK has been charged. and faces trial in October on charges of. rape and sexual assault made against him. by six women. He denies all of those.

charges. We can't talk about that, but we can. talk about the book tour he is currently. on. >> We can talk about the things that he's. been talking about in the last week or. so. >> slightly got us here, because Russell. Brand would like us to think that he has. been on a journey. Firstly, a faith. Inevitably, he was once a Buddhist. Then, I think he sort of moved There was. a point relatively recently where he was. endorsing a Roman Catholic prayer app. Was it? Look at the camera. But, called.

Hallow. The other journey I suppose he's. been on is from being what I would. describe I guess as a sort of standard. vibes-based lefty. towards being a sort of MAGA faithful. The Restless Entertainment is presented. by Octopus Energy. Admin tends to. require a little bit of encouragement, so submitting your meter reading now. earns you a spin and the prospect of. being quietly rewarded for it. Yeah, you. can uh you spin you can win Octo Points. which you can spend in the Shop topus. The Shop topus? I mean, fair play.

>> Well, whoever refuses a wheel and the. opportunity to get something for. nothing. >> absolutely one of the mainstays of game. shows, wheels, because it has a. randomness to it. And I've spent like. weeks and weeks sitting just working out. the wheel just going, "Okay, that's an. extra thousand. That'll be 2,000." Then. you work out how many bad squares there. are. By the way, there's no bad squares. on the Octopus one. But, it's a. mesmerizing thing. Like, the wheel. spinning watching it. >> They slow it down slightly. [laughter]. And then when you watch the contestant. like leaning in like it's going to make. a difference. So, like lots of things.

with Octopus Energy, they're very good. at gamifying lots of the sort of just. normal stuff that you have to do with. your energy provider. And getting a free. spin and winning Octo Points is a very. good example of that. With Octopus, you. submit your meter reading, you get a. spin and a chance at Octo Points for. money off your bill or to spend in the. aptly named Shop topus. Um you'll remember that in back in 2015. he was regarded as some sort of. you know, electoral prophet in some way. and as though his his had some kind of.

swing vote. Um and. >> He'd be he'd be on Newsnight. Ed. Miliband would talk to him. >> went to his flat in the 2015 during the. 2015 election. campaign to be interviewed by him. He. had a sort of news show at the time that. was called The Trus, bit like the news. but not. >> Oh, that's clever. Um yes. I remember him say One of the questions. he said to us, sorry, this is a bit of a. sidebar, but it was just so unbelievably. moronic that I have to remind remind. everyone what this electoral prophet. was. He said, "Since suffrage since the. right to vote." I mean, what actually.

has meaningfully occurred? >> [gasps]. >> Oh, wow. There thereby forcing Ed. Miliband who at that stage, I mean, if. so many people thought he was going to. win and for me this was the steal was. sealed. When you're having to explain. the creation of I don't know, the NHS, workers' rights, women's rights, gay. rights, anyway. Um but he was sort of. designated at that point the kind of. community leader of people who were. disinterested in politics, but might. with the right prophet be kind of pushed. forward and vote. And and I haven't. followed the story. Was he the right.

prophet? I have to say no. There were there was a. constituency of people who didn't. particularly vote and were not. particularly interested in the cut and. thrust of daily two-party politics. And. they did a lot of those people did come. out in 2016 the next year and they and. they did cast a vote in the Brexit. referendum. So, um so no, he wasn't. He didn't make any. the the blindest bit of difference. whatsoever um to that election result, but. >> I mean, to his bank balance. To his bank balance, yes, I'm sure. Um. and at that and he and he and he.

developed a career and lots of live. shows um and various books um and there. was a sort of move into self-help as. well, I would say. Um. Anyway, I think the stand at the. keystone really of this book tour so far. has been the appearance on Piers. Morgan's YouTube show. >> it is if you've not seen it, it is. absolutely it's about mind-blowing. It's. about mind-blowing. So, about. mind-blowing that's that's two things. you can have on the front cover of the. book.

Piers Morgan is talking to Russell Brand. about taking a Bible into the courtroom. and talking about various um When he was. charged. >> When he was charged, yeah. And on his. first appearance and talking about. various Bible verses that that helped. him through. that terrible ordeal. And Russell Brand says, "Oh, yes, I and. there's a wonderful um verse from Isaiah. that was very helpful to me." So, here's. Morgan goes, "Oh, well, by all means, read it out." There is. then, I think it's almost 2 and 1/2.

minutes of Russell Brand looking through. his Bible, the very Bible that he took. into court trying to find this. um verse from Isaiah. >> not that one. No, it's not No, no, no, oh, it's but it's that's a good one. Yeah. It's. uh oh, in the gallery they'll be uh. they're enjoying this. And Piers Morgan. uh he should have Piers should have. learned from this a very long time ago. Just kept completely quiet for the. entire 2 minutes and It seems like. personal growth is possible. >> It was the best bit of of TV Piers has. ever done.

Uh and but it was it it was a very smart. bit of presenting. So, he's just sort of. looking at the camera as Russell Brand. is just he's leafing through this It. Okay, it's Can I just say it's already. meme of the year? Just call off the. search. There's nothing It It is the. most memeable thing that you can. possibly have done. This clip is. I I think it's absolutely extraordinary. What's interesting to me I mean, there's. so many things about it that are. interesting to me. But as I don't know. what I'm going to say an actor because I. mean, I've seen the films, but as a as a. person who is a comedian, what the hell.

happened to his sense. of You think they I mean, obviously one. of the biggest things comedians know. about is timing and whatever. And to not. be aware of what is happening and not to. just simply say, "I can't find it now.". Anyway, the point is Yeah. How What. happened? >> something else on the top of your head. that you say, "Easy. Done." But. [clears throat] what has happened there? It seems to me the most complete sort of. collapse of all the sensibilities that. made you successful and charismatic in. the first place. To not understand that.

it was genuinely like 90 seconds or. something. It's It's so unbelievably. painful. And to not know how that would. But again, but he's he's from the world. now where you know, he's constantly. making his own videos and constantly. sort of making his own statements and. lives in a world where uh he you know, the media is a very different thing than. it used to be. So I I I guess he's just. sort of people. >> on a show like that, too, as well, in. fairness. So you'd think that but it. just it it's so off Well, the whole. thing about being a comedian and being. an intellectual stuff. We We will again, we will talk about this properly when we.

can when when when, you know, whatever gloves we currently have on. either stay on or come off, but we we we. can have a proper chat. I would argue he. was never really a comedian. I mean, there is a there is a group of. people who. who's really a TV presenter. Yes. Who. Yeah, but I you know. >> Yeah, that's timing. I I to have just. completely forgotten everything you ever. knew. So what it's interesting in terms. of how I know this is this podcast. slightly becoming the rest of. shamelessness. In the old days, I do.

think that that just that clip would be. enough to do for you. But the point. about all of this now is that if you. decline I mean, Jon Ronson who wrote. that book, So you think you need you've. been [ __ ] publicly shamed, which is such. a good book and caught such a mood at. the absolute, you know, maybe not the. absolute apex of people canceling. people, but definitely in the kind of. in the heyday of it all. I'd love him to go back now and talk. talk [laughter] about what the lack of. shame is doing to the culture cuz the. the sort of elimination in it of people.

who just decided not to care, not to be. shamed. Russell Brand will simply decide. not to be shamed by the absolute. preposterous hilarity of that of that. clip. And and there's already been. posting lots more and will just carry on. and it will sort of be fine. So his new. book is published by Skyhorse, but by a. particular imprint of Skyhorse. >> Yes, Tucker Carlson Press. Tucker. Carlson who He was one of the the very. first trumpeters of MAGA. He's now He's.

now gone slightly anti-MAGA, but not not. not in a fun direction. Um and he has. set up his own press to publish. >> a Fox News anchor and he no longer is. He's his own one-man band now. Yeah, and. you know, is he going to run for. president? All of this. Yeah, he he he. has Tucker Carlson Press, which he says. is to publish books that nobody else. will publish. And they will. Listen, that feels like there's a lot of. those around. But. really he he he means controversial. books by people awaiting trial. Yeah, that that genre. Yeah. Um Skyhorse have.

done quite a few of those as well. They. did. >> Skyhorse are amazing. Yeah, Skyhorse. really That By the way, that's a sort of. parent publishing in And Simon &. Schuster I think. distribute their stuff. So they're not. one of those people that you have to do. direct-to-consumer marketing. They do. actually have a bit more of a presence. and a bit more of a chance to get things. out there. They did they did the Biden. Crime Family, which is the blueprint for. their prosecution. That was written by. Rudy Giuliani. He wrote that book. They wrote The Pfizer Papers: Pfizer's.

Crimes Against Humanity. Both of those. books, by the way, had forwards by the. same. >> [clears throat]. >> person. Do you know who that might be? It's not Charles Brandreth. Steve Bannon. Oh, Steve Bannon. I was. going to say. he's. >> He's They've published one of his books. >> Oh, yeah. And do you know who the. forward of RFK's book was written by? Steve Bannon. There's like 10 books that. Steve Bannon has done the forward for. Stephen K. Bannon. Is there a Is there. an official forwarder job? Just I do. forwards. Oh, I guess so. I know I don't. know if it's the same it's the same. forward. But to be fair to Skyhorse's.

work, it's not all that. They also do. The Unofficial Joke Book for Fans of. Harry [clears throat] Potter. There's. four of those. Wow. Can I give you the. subtitle to that? This written. Talk about sitting around a table with. lawyers. The Unofficial Joke Book for Fans of. Harry Potter. On the cover it says, "This book is not authorized or. sponsored by Bloomsbury Publishing, Scholastic Limited, Warner Brothers, J.K. Rowling, or any other person or. entity owning or controlling rights in. the Harry Potter name, trademark, or. copyrights." All on the front cover. Now. you've only got to do another 36,960.

[laughter] words. They they also do the. um the large print Bible word search, which actually. that sounds like quite quite a good. book. They did Woody Allen's memoir, uh. Melania's memoir, um RFK's attack on Anthony Fauci, remember their chief medical officer. They've done Yeah, so it's a vibe. They've done so many books on the JFK. assassination, including one of which I. love, written by Jesse Ventura. Do you. remember Do you remember Jesse Ventura, the former wrestler? He actually became. I think Was he governor of Minnesota? I.

think he might have been become governor. of Minnesota. He certainly ran as. governor of Minnesota. They did an. amazing book called uh I went to prison. so you won't have to by uh Peter. Navarro, the lawyer. There's so many. jokes I want to make right now, but I. can't. Um Peter Navarro, the lawyer, by. the way, wrote a previous book where he. kept citing um. uh a legal expert called Ron Vara. And um. experts couldn't find any records of a. Ron Vara, and then they realized that. Ron Vara was an anagram of Peter. Navarro's surname. And so he did Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Anyway, he went to he went to.

prison so we don't have to. >> [laughter]. >> I don't know if I don't know if Russell. Brand read it. Did he go to prison for. writing a bad book, or was it something. I don't know. I think I think I think he. went to prison for some legal. shenanigans. I can't I can't I I I. wouldn't want to go into the detail. We're we're treading on such thin ice. throughout this piece anyway. Okay. I don't want to not be sued by Russell. Brand, but then we are sued by Peter. Navarro. Yeah, you're right. I mean, it's always the one that you're not. expecting, I have to say in my. experience of legal actions. Anyway, Make sure you look left and right. >> [laughter]. >> Russell Brand's book Yes. Uh uh it is.

described by um Tucker Carlson. Publishing as a test of meaning guide to. a timeless yet zeitgeist capturing. grounded yet psychedelic encounter with. Christ. >> that again. Um well, I I can't because. there's so much more of this synopsis. and I think you're going to love it. Oh, amazing. As much as the world is in. cultural and political collapse, unless. you've been living in a billionaire. bunker on Epstein Island, yeah, you know. we are in extraordinary revival. With. his customary almost shocking frankness, Brand describes his apostasy from. demonic Hollywood. I By the way, I think.

Hollywood may have been cut ties with. him, but. >> [laughter]. >> His apostasy from demonic Hollywood. >> And radical conversion to Christianity. against a backdrop of false allegations, his son's heart surgery, and truly jaw-dropping. spiritual warfare. If you are beginning. to awaken to the profound changes that. are sweeping our planet and want an. eyewitness account from the front line, okay, described in gentle yet visceral. prose, not possible, read this book now.

So, that was I mean, he always did kind. of offer Russell Brand that he swallowed. a dictionary and the pages had gotten a. muddle. It wasn't sitting well. >> Yeah, I Yeah, listen, we we're there's. so many things we can't say. After his. trial, which I think is set for October, we'll do a proper. Oh, yeah, well, we'll be covering that I. I'm I'm sure as well. Yes, absolutely. Um he now but we should say he now loves. Jesus, Yes. Donald Trump, Andrew Tate. I mean, it wasn't that long ago that he. was actually baptized. The story of the. baptism is I think it's quite. interesting um because that was not even.

2 years ago, but it was before he was. charged. Um. I want to hear so much more from Bear. Grylls cuz Bear Grylls baptized or. helped to baptize Russell Brand. in the Thames. Um so, in a stretch of. the Thames, so Thames water no longer. responsible for the biggest piece of. [ __ ] in that river. Uh and he was. assisted by and. >> By the way, perhaps that's perhaps. that's where this book has come from. Perhaps he came out of that river. Just. Suddenly he's suddenly he's got.

something in his system. >> impregnated form. Yeah. Um and he he. posted a picture of the baptism, Russell. Brand, saying, "It's me, Bear Grylls, the River Thames, and of course, the. Holy Spirit." But there were actually. three guys in the picture. There was one. that's obviously Bear Grylls hugging. each other, you know, waist-high in the. waters of of the Thames. I mean, don't. try that at home, but and and there was. one but the the other guy had a big sort. of one of those Japanese Hanya mask. tattoos right all over his back and I. said I don't think that was the Holy. Spirit was as far as far as I understand.

it I don't think it was. >> I mean have you seen the Holy Spirit? No, I haven't. >> Big news if you have. If if I believe. Russell Brand's capture caption maybe. that was the Holy Spirit. I just didn't. imagine him him to have a back tattoo I. guess. >> given a reason to disbelieve anything. Russell Brand says? I'm not going to. comment on that Richard. What I'm going. to say is. uh what Bear Grylls said about it when. Okay. chief scout at the time which is. interesting for the Scouts Association. Faith and spiritual moments in our lives. are really personal but it's a privilege. to stand beside anyone when they express. a humble need for forgiveness and.

strength from above. Friendships when we. go through tough times are worth so. much. It's true. Again I want to hear so. much more from Bear Grylls about how. things have developed. Perhaps we'll see. him in the public gallery come October. Anyhow. >> sort of did [clears throat] his own. rewrite of the Bible didn't he before. Christmas Bear Grylls which people. rather liked. So advanced. What advanced. move. But it must be I don't think the. Pope should dis- should talk about. [laughter] He'd be very careful when. he's talking about theology. And then. yeah, rewriting the Bible. It must be. very very hard to be a Christian at the.

moment to be an actual Christian at the. moment to be guided through your life by. your faith. Yeah. Because of course what. you want is is as many people converting. as possible and of course what you want. is high profile people converting. I. don't know whether when they look around. and see some of the people who talk. about Christianity at the moment whether. they consider them to be true believers. or whether they think they're using. their faith. It must be it must be a. very conflicting time. There always used. to be that line and I don't know whose. it is but it's such a good one. They. They used to say the American Christian. right who tend to be neither.

>> [laughter]. >> I always thought that was such a good. good way of putting it. Um but anyway, Russell Brand has to some extent he's. gone to live in America and he's sort of. joined he's appeared at um the. Conservative conferences. He's got a. live stream thing that he does. Now, his. appearance on Megan Kelly another Fox. News host who's sort of carved out on. her own and has got her own sort of. podcast empire. Um, on his Megan Kelly. appearance, um, he said that he had had sex with a. 16-year-old when he was 30 and he called.

it exploitative. He said he was an. exploiter of women. His behavior was. awful, but lawful. Again, that's about as much as we can. say on that with a court case pending, but I suppose we should look at where. his money comes from. If. he's got lots of future plans. If the. court case. goes his way in October, he says he's. going to run for London mayor. Um, but. he has sold lots of books in the past. >> "A Book Was a Big Seller" Yeah, he had. to pay Pan Macmillan back, didn't he, for um, two books. Self-help books, I as.

I understand it. >> Which which which he didn't deliver at. all. Didn't even deliver a word, supposedly. >> I mean, it's amazing they went for it. cuz as I was telling you, I'd spoken to. some people in publishing not that long. ago who said that they had never. requested a returned advance if the book. hadn't been. handed in and I was like, I'm so sorry, what? So, people have taken an advance, not. written the book. They're years years. behind. And it's okay if it's like. someone absolutely amazing, one of the. sort of greats of the 20th century and. you just think, well, just maybe they'll.

turn it in and then I'll still have it. But I was amazed by how many had not. been requested back. I thought that was. a really Yeah, because. well, because no one wants to have the. conversation. Well, okay. Well, Pan Macmillan were were willing to. have it. In fact, they wanted to have. the conversation, I think, by the High. Court because they um, legally have sued. for the return of Yeah, I think he got. got half of the advance. He got half of. the overall payment and then he would. have got the rest on delivery. So, I. suppose the economics of his world are. he appears at conservative conferences,

which is lucrative. Yeah, very, very. lucrative. It's It's like Yeah, like. you know, being on the after-dinner. circuit after you've been a prime. minister or something like that. You get. a a of money for those sorts of things. >> being. Okay. Yeah, it's not quite Prime. Minister. >> Your audience is very rich. >> [laughter]. >> Um he does a daily live stream on. Rumble. Um. yeah, I know. Um and and obviously lots of that ends. up on YouTube. And he did have ad. revenue from YouTube, but they brought. this in if there are lots of allegations.

against you and in what by the time he. was charged, I think. um they restricted monetization. So you. don't um including ad revenue, so you. get less. I think paid subscriptions are probably. his main source of income. And the. situation here is that actually you'd be. shocked how much. >> [snorts]. >> people draw in from these things. That's. why he's gone to America cuz it's just a. bigger pool of people. >> And people will pay a lot of money to. own the libs. This whole thing, you. know, all starts with four letters, which is woke. Uh and everyone's on one side or other.

of that mirror. And if you're on the. other side of that mirror, you are. anti-woke, then you will pay a huge. amount of money to anybody. [clears throat]. who does. anything if they come over onto your. side. I think it's it's very expensive. to be. anti-woke as a consumer. Yeah, because. it people pay him $50 a year for if for. the witterings on Rumble. But it's. estimated he's got something like. 120,000 subscribers. That's 400 or.

500,000 dollars a month. >> Just for that? Yeah, just for that. So. I I can't I can't tell you that he is. struggling desperately. And then much. more shadowy, I think even than that, are the endorsements and affiliate deals. that you do. around that sort of content. So. and live events, as I say, there it's. mainly turning up at these conferences, but it's very lucrative [clears throat]. and that's why he's he's gone there. Yeah. Another [snorts] interesting.

development this week as again, lots of. things we can't talk about, but we can. talk about things that are in in the. public realm. Katherine Ryan, who. appeared on Roast Battle with Russell. Brand, has said. it got to the point on that show, she. said, "I only did the show really so, you know, I I I I I felt I could say. interesting things." She said it got to. a point where she was told not to do any. more jokes. that Russell was the butt of. and that he had complained and that she. was asked said, "No, no, no, you can't I.

mean. it's a celebrity Roast Battle, but it. got to the point where she was not. allowed to do jokes about him." Can I. sort of round up, I guess, [clears throat] by asking your opinion. and I we've talked about it the. economics of his wealth and how he gets. his money. But this book tour is I suppose why. we're even talking about this. Will this. Will this sell books? The Piers Morgan. interview was, I think, 2 hours or. something long, really, really long, like they all are and that but all. anyone experiences them as are clips. that do or don't go viral and obviously.

this one's gone incredibly viral. Um. will it will it sell books? >> Yeah, in America it will. Here it won't. But it's like saying, "Look, if. Manchester City bring out a. sippy cup for babies, which seems. absurd, will that sell?" And of course. it will cuz it's got Manchester City, you know, stamped on it. So, Manchester. City fans will buy it and fans of. not necessarily fans of Russell Brand. but fans of. >> Jesus? fans of spending your money on. false prophets. Right. >> [laughter].

>> Uh well, that's a huge fan base for. Richard. There is an enormous fan base. That's bigger than the Swifties. That is. bigger than the Swifties. So, yeah, I I. I I suspect he'll sell sell some copies. of this book. I've seen quotes about. I've seen a couple of reviews on it, some in the Christian press, which which. are very entertaining. I wanted to. actually buy it because I wanted to read. it, but it's not out till later in May. here. Yeah, I mean it's unreadable. Right. But of course it's unreadable. Talking about him as a prose stylist and. a comedian, yeah, he he was he was It's. annoying. Yeah, he just he just Yeah, he he he he. promised something that he wasn't. Mhm.

But um you know, like with the Matthew. Goodwin book we talked about, it's not. just about the book itself anyway, it's. about staying current and have something. to talk about and being able to go on. Megan Kelly and Piers Morgan. That's the. thing that that book is is buying him. And, you know, driving more subscribers. to his channel. So, in in a way, even if. he didn't sell books, it would be a loss. leader. But, um Yeah. he'll sell a few, I think. But, as you say, it is dwarfed. by the amount of money that he he he. makes in subscriptions. Which we have to. say, if you have the the shamelessness.

attribute, you can just carry on making. the money. >> DNA glitch you can have. >> [laughter]. >> Is the little is the shamelessness DNA. You're quite right. I would I I'd be. surprised if there weren't parents in. America now doing genetic screening to. say, "What is the exact What's the exact. thing that we need there that our kid. never ever worries about anything anyone. says about him?" I'm incredibly. interested in achieving that. But, yes, it it's it is the genuine superpower. Think we got away with that? Yeah.

That's that anti-hero taken care of. Now, lovely pal of mine, Zoe, who are we. talking to on a Q&A episode soon? I. can't believe this is actually. happening. We are talking to Paul. McCartney. >> The guy from the Beatles. >> It Yeah, it's he's he was in the. Beatles. Yeah. Oh, the guy from Get. Back. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, we. Yeah. >> We are talking to the legend, Paul. McCartney. >> But, we will not be putting our. questions to him, we'll be putting your. questions to him. So, any questions you. have for Paul McCartney, I imagine you. could think of a few. If you send those.

to the Restless Entertainment at. goalhanger.com, put Paul McCartney in the subject line. In all caps. In all in caps. Oh my god, it's Paul McCartney as your subject. And. yeah, any questions you've ever wanted. to ask Paul McCartney, and we'll put. your questions to him. That'd be fun, wouldn't it? >> Oh my gosh. That I will Yeah, I mean, I. won't be speechless, obviously. That. would be that. >> Give it a whirl. I mean, that's the guy. who never had to get baptized in a. river. I'll just say that about the. dude. >> Just You know, back in the good old days. where, you know, our cultural icons were. actual cultural icons. Don't cross those.

two very, very different streams, Richard. I It's actually a river. Yeah. Tell me about Channel 5 drama, Richard. >> Yes, Channel 5 I like, you know, I try. and beat the drum as much as I can for. British television and for, you know, good old-fashioned British terrestrial. television as well, only because that's. where I kind of grew up and, you know, it gets a terrible press because all we. talk about is streamers and the way that. new media is going. And there are still. huge success stories in terrestrial. television. You know, we've seen plenty. of them, BBC, ITV, Channel 4. But Five.

have very quietly put together a quite. extraordinary stable of. dramas, I would say. And they've done it. because. the middle of the drama industry on. terrestrial television has really been. hollowed out. If you're BBC or ITV, they're still doing brilliant dramas, but they're doing fewer of them. They. tend to be bigger. Uh and there was there's a whole range. of shows that have stopped getting made. You could sort of symbolize them by. thinking, when somebody leaves a. British soap opera, where do they go? Uh and it used to be they would go to a.

lovely BBC drama or an ITV drama. And, you know, that market has gone. And also. they've been Channel 5 and back to 5 and. Channel 5 and back to 5 Yeah. a lot of. times. We know what we're talking about. It's the fifth button. Is it. Do people still use the fifth button? I. don't know. Anyway, um. So, the easiest drama strategy for Five. would be not to do drama at all. That. would be That's the alternate reality. here. That is 10 years ago they go, "We know how much money we've got. We. know how much money drama costs." Cuz it.

is very expensive compared to. >> expensive. Yeah, exactly. And we know. the return on that investment is is. often not amazing. So, we are not going. to do drama. at all. That would have been. nine times out of 10 that that would be. the thing that they would have done. But. I remember many years ago Ben Frow, who. we've talked about on this show before, who's very good at spotting the. zeitgeist at Channel 4. He's a chief. content officer. >> He was the chief content officer. He. said we're going to do drama. And now. that the whole thing is run by a guy. called Seb Cardwell. And [snorts]. it's something we could we could have.

talked about for a long time. But when I. was watching the the Hugh Edwards drama, the Martin Clunes thing, which is. classic five, which is, you know, a big. zeitgeisty idea with a big British TV. star in the middle of it. They were able. to advertise in the breaks and that all. of the stuff they've done for the last. four or five years. And when you saw it. all together, you think, "Blimey, they. It's unbelievable. >> It is really, really unbelievable. Now, what they do, they make drama very, very, very. cheaply. They have a a number of. companies. Clapperboard is one of them. Lonesome Pine is another one of them who.

have found a way of making shows. very, very. cheaply. So, I spoke to Seb Cardwell. this week about how they've done it and. where this where this industry is going. and also something that the British. government could do to help them. So, I'll just go through some of the amazing. shows they've done. They had The Game. That's Robson Green, Jason Watkins. Jason Watkins is one of the big. superstars on five. As is Jill Halfpenny. who's in The Feud. As Jill Halfpenny, Rupert Penry-Jones, Larry Lamb, Jamie. Leon O'Neill. I mean, you everyone.

recognizes all of these actors. And yet, we don't see them. every week and they they they really. cash in on that. Missed Call, Joanna. Scanlan. They've done a whole new series. of Dalgliesh. The Hard Acres which. they're doing a second series of. That's. a period drama. They've got a few period. things. The Teacher they did with. Sheridan Smith and they bought that back. for another couple of series. All. Creatures Great and Small, of course, has been a huge hit for them. They're on. series six of that with Sam West. So, they've built up this this incredible. stable of shows. And I I talked to Seb.

about how they've done it and how they. how how they've done it for the money. And it's a couple of things, really. I. think firstly, they don't have a big. system where 100 companies just. pitch new things to them and they put a. load of development money in and you. know, the normal thing as it you know. better than anyone if you're developing. a drama is there's like 18 months up. front where you're developing scripts. and sort of giving a first draft and a. second draft and a third draft and. everyone has their say and they go, "Actually, this is not for us." Or, you. know, perhaps we can do it like this. And they don't do that at all. They tend. to have a group of very, very trusted.

suppliers. Uh and they will just sit. around and say, "What would be a good. idea for a show?" Um you know, they were. talking about um. the feud. And you know, the feud was. just one of their writers was talking. about a. an extension that a neighbor was having. and the arguments that people have. And. then they went, "Great. That's a great. idea for a show. Like, we know what that. show is." And they just let the writer. go off and write it. >> commission almost instantly effectively. >> Exactly, yeah. Five says, "Look, we. don't pay a lot of money, but we green. light quickly. Or we'll say no quickly.". And as you know, when you're making. drama, a lot of the costs are those up.

front costs where you're developing five. or six different things all of the time. The next thing they do, of course, is. they they don't film in the UK. And we talked a lot about the tax breaks. you get in the UK and why they're so. good for the UK film industry and why. we've got these enormous studios now. But the tax breaks only come in over a. certain [clears throat] level, which I. think is a million pound an hour. And. Channel 5's dramas are not costing that. They Some Some of them are around. 350,000 an hour. I mean, they're super, super cheap. They make shows in. >> [snorts]. >> uh Malta, Spain, Ireland, Hungary,

Greece. They're about to do a shoot in. Lithuania. Um Love Rat, which is another. one of their really, really great shows, was filmed in Cyprus. Alibi, who do. great drama as well, will tell you the. same. You know, Eagle Eye make a lot of. their stuff and they're always in Italy. or Belgium and or or all over. Uh and. given that. drama is going to get cheaper as the. years go by. Firstly, because people. like Five and Alibi have shown that you. can make it cheaper. And secondly, because AI will make cost savings in in. certain areas. I think if um Britain.

wants a share of this new sort of drama. world, they have to reduce the uh the the level. at which the the the tax breaks um kick. in. And I know that Five are really, really lobbying for that. So, we'll just. add our I was talking to another. producer who's done some really about. that. >> saying that if you don't do that, these. kind of great three-part or four-part. dramas or whatever, you know, where. however you divide it, that are. non-returning will sort of disappear. And they can be about really amazing. things. It could be like Mr. Bates that. everybody talks about and become a huge. thing, but if you don't back them up in.

some way with tax concessions, then I. think it's it's quite difficult for. people to do it. >> And also if you're if you're wondering. by the way why so many new dramas are. set abroad, why you know, Hotel. Portofino or The Madame Blanc Mysteries, which is Sally Lindsay, which is another. of the real superstars of five, um why. there are so many shows that are set. abroad, well, that's because then you. can film abroad and it looks like. abroad. Whereas some shows you have to. you film abroad, you have to try and. make it look like the UK. Now, the other fascinating thing that Seb.

said, and I do think this is very very. good news for the industry. He's talk. He's talking about streaming for all. companies. Streaming is huge for five. It is. And by the way, I should. >> Also, our service is my five. >> My five, yeah. I should have said right. at the beginning that they are making. really good dramas. I mean, it's it's. it's almost always like classy stuff. with people you recognize, well-written, and you you can see it's a little. cheaper than the other stuff, but you. know, you're driven by great. performances and great story. But he was saying when uh a show is on. scheduled TV on five, he said the.

average age of the audience is 64. But. you know, are young people interested in. drama particularly? Well, on streaming, the average age comes down to 54, which. as a 55-year-old, I think it's pretty. young. Um but again, 54 is a is a sort. of another traditional age for for. British terrestrial TV, even the the. streaming services of British. terrestrial TV. So perhaps only older. people are interested in this. But five have had a few shows go to. Netflix. They've done very very well on. Netflix as well. And the average age on.

Netflix for five drama is 34. And 34 is a very interesting number if. you're interested in the health of. British TV and the future British TV and. British drama. So, I think what it goes. to show is not everything has to be. Succession. No. Cuz A, not not everyone. can write Succession, but B, most people. don't want to watch Succession. It's the. truth. The The people like us who want. to watch it absolutely love it, but most. people want a good story well told. There is not the money left in British.

TV to make those types of shows. So, you. have to find a hero of some sort to to. to try and. drive this industry through and say but. Five and and the gang at Alibi as well. who do Marlowe murder mysteries all. sorts of things like that. They are. finding a way to make extremely popular. content, content that is absolutely. loved by people that you don't see. written about an awful lot in the. broadsheets, [clears throat] but it's. doing huge huge numbers. So, they are. doing that week in week out. There's a. whole industry they've created. So,

firstly, I want to say congratulations. to them and to all the people making. their shows, but secondly, I'd like to. say if we could get that industry. back in UK studios, it'll make an awful. lot of money for everybody. So, this. this idea of lowering that that tax. break level would be incredibly. lucrative, I think, for for Britain and. [clears throat] for the British film. industry. >> Because what we talk about so much is. that if you have the global TV channel, which is Netflix, you do get these shows that sometimes.

they make a show which you know, it's. great, but something like Sex Education, but it could sort of be anywhere. And. you have the absolute sort of local feel. and even you know, regional feel where. you think, "Oh, this is you've got a new. one coming, you know, that's set in. Newcastle, The Fortune, that's coming. imminently." And you know it where it. is, and you won't have that sort of. television if the government doesn't. help in that way, I think. You won't. have things that are like, "Oh, I know. exactly where this is." Or this is, you. know, I understand the regions of my. country. You won't have that at all. because what Netflix does is they they.

do that. Yeah, exactly. And and. >> Italy. >> or it's the UK or it it's much broader. brush. And as I say, listen, all the. channels are doing good work in drama. You look at Dirty Water on on Channel 4. All the channels doing um. good stuff, but they're doing less and. less of it. And this is a way of just. getting that conveyor belt of great. drama, getting that uh continuing. I. know I know Five have got a a few. announcements they're making in the next. couple of weeks with really really. interesting shows with really really big. names. And I'll also say this, they.

revived Play for Today. Yeah. So, you. know, Play for Today was a UK thing in. the '70s, '80s. And it you know, it it. was one-off plays run by people like. Dennis Potter and usually dealing with. with, you know, kind of um issues of the. day. And um. everyone bemoans the fact there's no. Play for Today. And they were they were. they were one-offs, which made made them. very very um expensive. But Channel 5. have bought that back. And they have. bought it back in a way that I think is. very interesting, which is they have. said, "We're going to give this to.

companies who are going to employ people. from lower-income backgrounds." So, you. know, there's there's lots and lots of. different schemes for getting. underrepresented communities into. television. But lower-income backgrounds. is one that that has has not been. concentrated on quite so much. So, they. >> is the hardest thing that people always. say who do you try and deal with these. targets. They is actually the hardest. one to do. And you know, this is uh an. area where there's not a lot of money. for Five in doing these series, but what. they do is they're a showcase for new. writers, new directors, uh for.

interesting actors, and for production. companies. They did five of them last. year. They're going to do some more of. them. And the point of them is they. might zero money out of them, but they. might just find a writer who works with. them for the next 20, 30 years. And a. director who knows that they owe them. and will do stuff for them for the next. 20, 30 years. And to allow a ramp into. this industry for for people who didn't. previously have it. Let's get behind. their attempts to lower that tax break. as well. And then we can all do more of. it. So, I think a a rare success story. And it comes about from people. So, a. big up to Alibi and a big up to Sep.

Cardwell who I think is doing. extraordinary things. Have we, I hope, left enough time to talk about Lauren. Sanchez and the the Met Gala? I know. Jeff Bezos as well, but Sanchez is. really the uh That's She's the. headliner. >> That's the tea here. Yeah, this time. next week it will be the day of the Met. Gala on the Monday when we record this. And by the time the podcast lands, it. will be the morning after. >> I know I'll be so hung over. Yeah. Cuz. I'm looking forward to it very much. >> Brilliant. Like all normal people, I. will want to be in my pajamas saying, "Oh my god, that dress is a war crime.". One of the most beautiful women in the.

world. Well, I'm going to be cuz I got. invited this year. Oh, yeah. >> Fine. No, I didn't. >> No, I know. I do know what you mean. >> Oh, yeah, that's true. For weeks in. advance. It's the biggest event in the. fashion calendar and it's presided over, always was, by Anna Wintour who was of. course the famously fearsome. editor-in-chief of American Vogue for so. many years and is now the chief content. officer global of Condé Nast. >> Yeah, I remember I remember when I got. made chief content. >> [laughter]. >> One of one I didn't go into so much. Yeah. Well, yes. I think she still has a.

stranglehold over all of you, I have to. say. I don't think she's one for letting. go. You know, and as editor of American. Vogue for so long, she was worshipped. for her snobbery, really, I would say. And she famously inspired the character. of Miranda Priestly in The Devil Wears. Prada. Anyway, the Met Gala this year is going. to be sponsored by Lauren Sanchez and. Jeff Bezos who have become sort of. honorary co-chairs of you give enough. money. That happening represents a complete. defeat for her and everything that she.

stood for because she was the ultimate. sort of tastemaker. And if I could. describe my beloved Lauren, I would say. she's a sort of lack of tastemaker. And. you know, most would say that's fine. She's enjoying her money and that's. absolutely fine. But. Anna Wintour would have loathed. everything she stood for for almost her. entire career. And now she has to sort. of let her in. Now, we've talked before. about how the Met Gala works, but it. benefits the Costume Institute as a part. of the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New. York. There's a guest list. Um Anna.

Wintour used to have to approve lots of. the big stars' looks. I mean, you were. dragooned into buying tables, and the. tables are really expensive. They're. like $350,000 for one table. Wow, do you. get to keep the table? No, I No, it. wouldn't. It was always said you couldn't buy your. way in. Well, I'm afraid you can now. Um and. >> You know, often you you can't buy your. way in at the bottom, but you can buy. your way in at the top, right? Yeah. And it what's interesting is that it's. all sort of bound up with the release of. The Devil Wears Prada 2, which is coming. on Friday, which I went to the premiere.

of. You can't discuss the film because. it's embargoed still till Wednesday or. something when the critics' reviews are. allowed to come out, but it's no secret. it that it returns to the world and the. characters of the original film, which. came out 20 years ago. Remember, it's. set at a fashion magazine, and Meryl. Streep's the Anna Wintour figure, and. she's all-powerful, etc. I think that that premise alone to me. feels like reanimating. what is definitely a lost world, and the. world has changed so much, and. it's been devalued, and it's been.

destroyed to some extent. And I find. >> It's now The Devil Wears Prada. >> Yeah. >> [laughter]. >> The Devil Wears Amazon. Um [gasps]. But really, it's weird. Anna Wintour. having been so sort of famously frosty, you know, the brilliant nickname Nuclear. Wintour. She's now on the cover of Vogue. with Meryl Streep. I Just she everything. she does now to me feels like the. actions of a desperado. Oh my god. Is. she Is she going to be baptized in the. Thames by Bear Grylls? I don't think she's ever been near a. Hanya Maus tattoo, let me tell you that.

That tattoo is still not in vogue. But. her revolution is over, for sure. Um and. I think it all of it is embodied by this. relationship with Lauren Sanchez because. Lauren in the old days would never have. been admitted to this world unless she. changed. There were always a succession. of people getting enormous money, particularly in America. There always. is. And normally [snorts] they then they. have to come into a certain form of. society. And there are other women. trying to trip you up. Normally other. women who've got there like 5 seconds. before you. And it's so interesting.

reading about what it used to be like to. be the wife of a billionaire. Barbara. Amiel, who is married to Conrad Black, became part of this billionaire's world. Her memoir is she constantly feels like. she's doing it wrong. She'll go to a. party. She'll, you know, be wearing all. her it's patio jewelry. That's necklaces $1 million or under.". Patio jewelry. Patio jewelry is my just. my favorite. Yeah. She's always. thinking. She says, "I was consumed by. fear of not doing it right." Let me tell. you something about Lauren Sanchez. She.

has spent not one second of her life. thinking, "Am I doing it right?" She. wants to look really hot, really rich, and like she's having a really good time. absolutely all of the time. Now, that's. quite fun. But Anna Wintour was the. gatekeeper of the world. Um and it's. interesting what has changed over these. 20 years since that first film came out. and now. And I would say that what's. changed is the nature of celebrity and. also what happened with Silicon Valley. So, Kim Kardashian was like the last of. those people who would never have been.

admitted either, but then bent the knee. and spent a really long time bending the. knee to fashion and to Anna Wintour. And. eventually she put her on the cover. And. also she realized that she needed her. for the Met Gala because she creates. these viral moments and she turns up in. this or that dress in it. But you need. that kind of viral online moment. Um And. the And the if you if you want to. attract fame and power, fame and power. is coming from a different place. And. And she unlocks it. But she would never. have like chauffeur her all the way. around Paris for Fashion Week as at the.

couture shows. Anna Wintour basically. seemed to drive Lauren Sanchez, not. literally in the front with the. chauffeur's cap on, but that'd be quite. funny. But drive her around to all the. shows. And there's something about. Lauren Sanchez that is like, "Okay, you. don't she doesn't care. You don't want. to lend me your clothes? Okay, that's. fine. It doesn't matter. I can like. obviously buy all your clothes, but not. only that, I can buy your parent. companies. So there's a certain like a. level of money that is completely. transformative and I would say that all. the power that used to be in magazines.

has now completely flowed away to the. tech platforms completely. In Vogue's. case, first and foremost, to Instagram. and sort of Mark Zuckerberg. I mean. Zuckerberg's style. What What is the. style? He dresses like a like a like a. Serbian who owns a adult webcam. business, you know. Seriously, like I mean. >> by the way, that is sort of what he is. Yeah. Well, yeah, exactly. I'm simply. talking about the fashion aesthetic. No, but in the old. No, well, in the old in the previous. generations he might have gone into.

warlordery, but then he just discovered. there's more money in girls. Just. talking about the fashion aesthetic, not. about, you know, Instagram although they. maybe. And so it's interesting that those. tables that I talked to you about, those. $350,000. tables that are the one night at the Met. Gala. These people who've bought up. tables this year, Meta, Instagram, Amazon, OpenAI. I mean Hold on. Go hang. out. >> [laughter]. >> I wish. Well, I don't actually do it. I just. like to watch you online. I mean, who.

wants to Snapchat? But then we can see. what Don Samrick is wearing. >> Yeah. Yeah. Who are you wearing? Sorry, surely. >> you wearing, Robert? >> [laughter]. >> And also, of course, museums have always. had patrons that they have to sort of. fawn over because otherwise like you're. not going to get the wing of your. gallery built. But I do think that all. of this is a sort of lost world. And it. was interesting funnily enough it was. again, I can't talk about the what was. in the film because I when I went to. this premiere, but it was a massive. premiere in Leicester Square in London, like probably one of the I mean, the. biggest one that there's been there for.

a while. And I mean, you can look at my. face, you can see I'm not in the looks. business, okay? But I'd never felt so. glad I wasn't. There are so many. and they look beautiful all of these. people, but there are almost hundreds of. sort of influencers and whatever who. I mean, I can't explain how long it must. have taken all of them to get ready. And. they're just being sort of herded this. way and that. It's the brutality of it. Like really I'm and this is no and I. just thought, "Oh my god, I'm so glad.

I'm like not in this that business.". It's so hard, you know, they all had. sort of like resting face. They all. looked worried all the time. They didn't. know which stairs to you know, because. there's so many of them and what you. have to do is, you know, you get your. quick moment in the where you're. photographed and then that will go. online and it exists really as a sort of. digital moment and you've had to go. through hours and hours and hours of. preparations and the sort of indignity. of being herded this way and that during. I found it like a scene of just total. pathos and I was just so glad I wasn't.

in and this is no disrespect to I mean, they all look beautiful like hundreds. and hundreds of beautiful but sort of in. a net, you know, in a in a bit of a. horrid way. It's like it's like seeing. the young men going off to war in 1939. Yeah. Yeah. Or even worse 1914. Think. it'd be over in 15 minutes. You know, >> [laughter]. >> and I just like, "Guys, you're you're. you're quite literally in the trenches. here, but I found it a scene of of of. pathos. I will say that. But yes, so I. think in the end it'll be interesting to. see how this event that exists really as. a viral thing now, the Met Gala. Um.

but it's no longer I don't think about. gatekeeping and style, which is sort of. evidenced by the fact that it's. effectively been bought by someone who I. don't think anyone would think was our. century's greatest arbiter of taste, dear old Lauren. You can buy these. things now and the tech companies, the. kind of least stylish people in the. world really can buy them. Yeah. Well, you buy what you don't have to, do you? Uh don't forget all your questions for. Paul McCartney. If you send those to the. Rest Is Entertainment at goalhanger.com. Do some good ones, please, cuz we've got.

to sit in front of him and ask those. questions. I know you will. We will be. back on Thursday with our questions and. answers episode. And on Friday, for. members, a bonus episode about the. history of breakfast [laughter]. television, which is such a ride. >> Oh, gosh, this is so up my street. >> Yes, it is. Mine as well. [gasps]. Um if you want to join for ad-free. listening and bonus episodes, it's the. restisentertainment.com. Otherwise, we'll see you on Thursday. >> Thursday.

>> [music].