Married At First Sight, Enhanced Games & Stephen Colbert with Marina Hyde & Richard Osman

We got a lot to talk about this week. We. are talking about Married at First. Sight, which as everyone knows is blown. up over the last week with all sorts of. allegations to contestants alleging they. were raped and further allegations are. continuing to come and we'll also be. talking about that. >> We're going to talk about there was a. big event this weekend which combines a. number of our. bugbears on the show, which is the. enhanced games, which is essentially. tech bros meets abusive sport. >> And we're also going to talk Stephen. Colbert's final show. We'll give give a.

little bit of a goodbye to all that and. a what's next for both him and perhaps. even late night. >> Exactly that. And also we are looking for your. questions, please, for following our. Paul McCartney interview and. the Tom Hanks one coming up. We're. talking to Steven Spielberg. That's. funny, isn't it? >> Mr. Spielberg. >> Mr. Spielberg. >> We don't come up with the questions, you. do. You know how that works, so please. send any questions you have to the rest. is entertainment at gohanger.com. Anything you've ever wanted to ask. Steven Spielberg and we will put your.

questions to him. >> dying for it so much. So excited about. that one. >> The Rest Is Entertainment is presented. by Octopus Energy. Now, the moment. someone becomes properly famous, they. stop traveling as a person and they. start traveling as a situation. And yes, I am talking about the world of. entourages. >> It's amazing. Anytime you do a TV show. when someone properly famous comes on, it's all you can just have a spread. better as to how many people they're. going to bring with them. >> Most people don't actually need a. bodyguard and a fixer and a straw lady, but not having to start from scratch.

every single time you get in contact. with someone is actually undeniably. appealing. >> So, Octopus Energy, you know, anytime. you ever ring any company, you start. from scratch right from the beginning. again. With Octopus Energy, they. recognize your number and that goes. through to a very, very small team of. around 10 people who are there to deal. with you. So, you'll almost certainly be. dealing with someone who you've dealt. with before. That's the Octopus Energy. entourage that they've built around you. >> A great satisfaction not having to tell. your story for new every single time,

which I think most major celebrities. also feel. >> Shall we start with Married at First. Sight? >> Married at First Sight, um, which is a. Channel 4 show here. It's made by CPL. Productions. >> Channel 4's biggest show. >> Oh, by. >> By quite some way. >> It's enormous. It I mean, even things. like Bake Off, if you look at what the. streaming figures is unbelievable. It's. a million miles ahead of it. The. Panorama investigation, former. contestants, two women say they were. raped by their on-screen partners. Another said there was a non-consensual.

sex act. Some have say that actual. violence has taken place. The men who. have been at the center of the. allegations so far deny the allegations. CPL have pushed back and say that they. have uh sort of higher standards of. welfare on this program. >> Channel 4 have removed every single. episode of it from their service. Two we. have ended their sponsorship of it. having initially paused it. This is a. show that is created by the sort of high. priest of modern reality dating shows, a.

guy called Chris Coelen in the US. And. there's a lot of stuff of him talking. about the show, which I think will will. be interesting and we will get to, but. they even have a new series in the UK. that's yet to be aired. >> There is. And in the same way we talked. a while ago about the. The Bachelor in the States with the. they've had to can. I wonder if this is. where that's going to end up with this. being canned. I can't see a world in. which that isn't where this ends up. >> Well, let's talk a little bit cuz it. also Nour Nu'manji who did the BBC. Panorama investigation talked a bit. about how the investigation I was always.

interested when people sort of take you. a bit behind the scenes and that's. become quite a feature of. >> She also did the the Greg Wallace. >> Yeah. >> investigation. In fact, she talks about. it. She says, "Yeah, I think cuz she's a. a culture correspondent. She says, "I. sometimes think people think that that's. sort of quite a lightweight area." And. she says, "I hope I hope I'm sort of. proving that it isn't that actually a. lot of what's going on in this world, you know, you can you can um look at via. culture. So, I I think. full marks to Nona what what an. incredible job. >> The premise of Married at First Sight, sorry, if if anyone isn't aware of it,

you are matched with someone, you meet. them for the first time on your wedding. day. Actually, as you know, my for a. long time, which is my anxiety dream. You meet the person you're getting. married to on your wedding day. And. then, you sort of live together and see where. it goes. Um. >> It's sort of like a marriage backwards. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Anyway, a woman who'd been a bridesmaid. at what at one of these sort of. confected weddings at the beginning, um. came into the BBC and she sort of said. there's made a allegations of sexual.

misconduct and and raised welfare. concern. Nona says that one of that when. they were first started approaching the. men, one of the men's legal firms told. the BBC that their fees were being paid. by CPL, which is the production company, which she thought was odd because the. women felt somewhat unsupported for. obvious reasons. The morning of the. Panorama broadcast, Nona says CPL, the. production company, emailed participants. warning against talking to the press. >> Well, I think even the week before they. they they were essentially they were.

calling the allegations wholly. uncorroborated and disputed. >> They've got a new the chief executive at. Channel 4, Priya Dogra. At first, she. didn't apologize and she said she felt. sympathy. She has now apologized. Channel 4 have said that based on the. knowledge they had at the time, they. made the right decisions in proceeding. with the welfare in a. in the way that they did and with. broadcasting in the way that they did, which to me suggests that the strategy. for this is. uh evolving quite erratically or they. would probably say pragmatically, but.

they haven't been aware of these. allegations since April because that's. when the BBC first went to them and we. are in late May. So, I would say it's. quite interesting how they're handling. it. What they have hastily now. announced, now it's all become public, Channel 4, is that they've commissioned. a review in two halves. So, there's one. in which a legal firm will look at how. Channel 4 handles the allegations and. allegations within the show, and one. which will look at welfare provisions. and protocols. >> Which is the key with duty of care, we. would always have called it on TV.

reality shows, which is the. responsibility you have to anyone who's. a participant in a program that you've. created and you've essentially put them. on. >> Yes. So, that's that's the background, and I think it's interesting cuz there. is a sort of sense that reality TV had. sort of reformed after what is popularly. regarded as the kind of wild west of, you know, 20 years or a bit more ago. Um. and for me, I think reality has become. very sort of class demarcated, that.

you've got the the biggest shows and the. most prestigious shows on television are. reality TV, and they're celebrity. reality, and they're things like. Traitors or Strictly or whatever it is. >> Well, it depends what you mean by. reality TV, but essentially we're. talking about that kind of unscripted. >> Unscripted, yeah. >> game shows that have members of the. public / celebrities taking part in some. form of artificial reality. >> Yes, and you look at and or a bubbled. world or whatever it may be, and which. will I think is relevant here. What. happens with those sort of shows is that.

you'll get like some of the biggest. stars in the world saying, "Oh, yeah, I'll do it for 40 grand. You know, I'll. go to Carson, Scotland for 40 grand.". So, you've got that. Then you've got a. sort of middle class, things like Bake. Off and things like that. But then there. is this giant underclass of shows that. are very, very popular, um Married at First Sight. I would. include Love Island, you know, there's. Love Is Blind and other Chris Coelen. format. >> Yeah, and by the way, those three shows, for their respective broadcasters and in. lots of territories, are three of the. biggest shows in the world. They are. huge money makers. So, Love Is Blind, Love Island, Married at.

First Sight, enormous franchises. The. money they are minting for the people. behind them is. >> Yeah. >> absolutely off the scale. It's just. worth remembering that. >> Married at First Sight is in I think 33. countries, maybe that. >> definitely above 30. I mean, all of them. are, and they are hugely successful. I. definitely think this will be the first. of a lot of stories in this area, and so. does I have saw one of the lawyers for. one of them saying, "Oh, this is just. the tip of the iceberg. Lots more. people, once they see people coming. forward about these things,

will come forward for all those shows.". I mean, we already know that there are always. concerns about those things. You know, that there have been a number of. suicides in the wake of Love Island. There have been all sorts of things. People We know there are in the US, which we'll get on to. I mean, there are. numbers of complaints against these. shows, particularly against these Chris. Coelen reality dating formats. If you're a UK production company and a. UK public service broadcaster as Channel. 4 is running one of these things, you. must be expecting this to happen because.

you can look around the world and see. that it happens everywhere that people. eventually start complaining. And I. think this is a bit like TV Foker. We're. going to see lots of stuff coming out. now. >> I think that's right, and it's. interesting to think what CPL are. thinking, what Channel 4 are thinking, and it's very, very easy to get swept. along on a tide of what's new in. television, and to understand that. something like Married at First Sight is. a phenomenon around the world, and to. kind of say, "Oh, don't be There's a new. generation who grew up with reality TV, and when you put them on it, they really. understand what it is they are doing.

It's not like, you know, the first. series of Big Brother when everyone was. walking into a situation they they. didn't understand." I think people. think, "Oh, no, it's I think this. generation are cool. I think they. understand more than we do." Uh I think. you know, so. >> That's handy. >> Yeah, isn't it handy? And I think that. when reality TV started, Duty of Care is. a very interesting thing cuz as you say, it has it's always been there. There's. always psych tests. Everyone always. undergoes, you know, criminal records. checks and all those types of things, and it's been tightened and tightened. and tightened over the years, and you.

know, follow-up. kind of interviews with people have got. more and more and more. But, what has really changed is the the. form that reality TV is taking. When you. look at that early reality TV, um Big. Brother even, you know, the early series. of Love Island, Survivor, it is a closed. world. It's a closed set and as. producers, which also includes, by the. way, psychologists and people that, you. know, involved in the duty of care, you. have some at least illusion of control. over what's happening because you have.

an entire world and every single inch of. that world is covered because you have a. camera on every single thing. The only. time that something isn't covered is if. someone is under a sheet. >> Yeah. >> You know, that's literally but every. single thing, you've got every single. bit of footage, every single interaction. between everybody throughout. So, there's a. world in which you can spot things very, very quickly. There's a world in which. you can kind of convince yourself that. you can be the master of that world. However, now reality shows are far more. out in the real world. And Married at. First Sight is it's much less of a of a.

precinct, you know, it's it's. >> Yeah. >> it it expands outwards. The sense you're. in a bubble for the participants, absolutely it does. But, the sense they. are in a bubble for the producers does. not and that's the worst combination. of all because people still have that. Stockholm Syndrome. People still think. they have to do what the cameras want. People still understand that there is. fame to be got from um either being. lovable on a show or being dramatic on a. show. All those things still exist. Um. but, the producers have less control.

over the real world aspects of it. And I. think that um that's what's playing out. here and I think the avalanche begins. now. >> I want to talk about Chris Cullen shows. particularly because I think he's. written and he's talked a lot about this. type of thing because they have had lots. of lawsuits against their shows in the. US. He's created these shows where you. can't quite believe the premise like. Married at First Sight obviously, you. know, >> Well, you can't believe the premise cuz. it's not real. >> No. >> Cuz they're not really getting married. >> But, it's so so extreme compared to what. we used to see on in and he does all of.

that it's all dating you know there's. love is blind you know when they're sort. of dating through a wall perfect match. which is I don't think anyone's looking. for long-term love there but that's. quite interesting he calls it the summer. fling to those other these other shows. then the ultimate and the spouse has all. of these things the reason he says he's. really obsessed with dating shows is. because he thinks the stakes are so high. and he says that married at first sight. is not format driven it is I'm story. driven.

>> he says you know what the shows are sort. of asking is how does attraction work. how can you tell if people are really in. love can you fake can you manage it can. you create it Chris Colin will always. say oh it's all a choice you know I'm. making a documentary that's what he. loves to say it's not a format no you're. not making a documentary. >> you're aware of the. frivolity is that a word something is. feveral of the situation you're putting. people in and you are ratcheting that up. time and time and time again because. that gets ratings and ratings equals. money so we this and which by the way is.

that's the age-old story of television. you want ratings and you want money and. that's what he's doing but it's. disingenuous to say anything other than. that he's not turning a camera on and. just seeing what happens you know he's. not he's not David Attenborough. >> the producers have always had an. unbelievable amount of control within. these environments and. >> way when people say that cuz people. sometimes say just to to be clear oh all. these things are scripted the end of the. edit is X Y and Z really what the. technique is to throw in a mechanic that. changes everything and then sit back and.

see what happens it's not oh we're going. to do this and then we're going to do. that and then we're going to do that and. then we'll film that and that's going to. make that story genuinely the idea is. like like on any TV show like on a panel. show is we have this structure we do. this we ask this question we press we. pull this lever and then we just see. what happens that's the thing that they. want to do until the point where that. runs out of steam and then we put. another lever which by the way they. don't really do in documentaries. >> No. What's gone wrong here is really a. function of the idea itself in a way.

because it is all so unreal, you are may. you may be married, but you are divorced. from reality by design. Any welfare is. reactive as I've read a lot of people. this week talking about it, former. contestants in these types of shows. There's an interesting article by. someone who is in Love Island who said. all the welfare and duty of care stuff. is reactive and not proactive. And the. fact is that when you are removed from. everything in your bubble as I you know, it's a bit like Karen in Goodfellas. saying after a while it gets to feel. normal. And a lot of people don't under.

When you're in a big immersive world and. you're isolated from your friends, your. families, maybe even your phone, from. all sorts of things, it's often that we already know this. about sexual assault or alleged sexual. assault or anything. It's only. afterwards that you realize what really. happened and how undesirable a situation. was. And it's. that happens anyway in cases of sexual. assault and we understand far more about. it than we ever did before. Never mind when you're in a sort of.

bubble and you really have almost all of. your kind of normal. checks and balances removed from you. You then also have a welfare team who. work for and are paid by the production. >> Would not accuse a single one of them by. the way of entering into this with any. sort of ill intent. I think people are. trying to make a great television. program and this is the so you know, there's a big hit around the world. I. think it started in Denmark, but you. know, also Australia was the one where. Britain really fell in love with this. format. So of course you're going to. make it and Channel 4 excited. They go,

"We'll make it, but we do have to. understand that there are lots of issues. here and we have to be very careful with. it." And the producers would have taken. that very, very seriously. It got so. huge, such a huge show. So the um you. know, in a the marriage is sort of. meaningless in a way. It's what it leads. to and the fame it leads to and the the. Instagram followers that it leads to. And it becomes such a juggernaut that. the people I think who commission it and. produce it. do not have the capability and these are. very capable people. They do not have. the capability to control the thing that. has been.

unleashed. They have created something. that feels like a the sort of cutesy. reality experience we used to do um and. becomes a real world thing and becomes. an incredibly complex and difficult real. world thing and it's not appropriate for. that to be run by the people who are. running it. >> Yeah. There was something else that. Chris Coelen says that he is bars for. his shows to teach empathy and so on but. also that the conversations around the. shows evolve with and reflect the.

culture. And one thing it that I've just. been thinking about this all week and. because I've been thinking about it. before and I know I've talked to you. about this before but. it there's a sort of wider point about. how toxic dating is in. >> Yeah. >> contemporary culture and obviously the. premise is absolutely crazy what we get. married to someone and you've never met. them. Only in a world where already everyone. is being sort of matched by machines. >> Yes. >> Um and people are completely exhausted. and twisted by the apps. How much do you. hear about app fatigue and all of this?

What used to be an organic. human connection has become a sort of. algorithmically controlled market. Um. it's an aspect of platform capitalism. It's twisted in its best sense, you. know, as it not at its best sense but it. you know, your real world if you're not. on one of these shows and not on. anything. even that experience for people is kind. of miserable and awful. >> Why not get married to someone I've. never met before on TV because. everything else has failed. >> well only against that general real.

world backdrop that everyone is going. through. can these kind of bizarre weird. artificial premises if seem somehow. maybe it's more real, maybe it's more. desirable than just many of the kind of. tech mediated alternatives. >> And it's you know, sitting around a. table thinking up TV shows is something. I did for many, many years and it's it's. a it's a fun thing to do and. it seems that we're at a stage now where. you think, well, just because you can. doesn't mean you should. But it's, you.

know, it's hard not to when people. Listen, we have to talk about the. complicity of everyone here, which is. the program makers, which is the. channels and the viewers. It is one of. those things where it's built and built. and built. and, you know, we've seen different. versions of this, different iterations. of it. We love the drama watching the. drama of it and it is very easy as a. broadcaster, as a program maker and as a. viewer to step away from the reality of. the thing. no, no, hold on, we're in a. very, very, very toxic culture at the. moment.

We are putting young people on. television who absolutely are digital. natives, but perhaps they're not, you. know, emotional natives. Perhaps they, you. know, they they don't have absolute. control over. their place in the world. And the moment. something like this happens, you have to. stop and go, yeah, do you know what? That's probably too far. That was. probably enough. And I think that That's. why I can't imagine they're going to. show the next series of. Married at First Sight. I just can't see. it cuz I just I just don't think it.

feels an appropriate thing to put people. through with the knowledge we now all. definitely have. That was always at the. back of our brains, but wasn't at the. place of center at the front of our. brains. One thing it does tell you about our. culture is we do, at least, take these. things seriously. Firstly, brilliant. work from North Nandhi for for putting. this um whole thing together. And the. real measure of our culture is what. happens next. >> Yes. I think it's. Yeah, it's it's a it's a horrific story.

and it's not just on the channels and. the producers, it's on the us viewers as. well. Uh but so we all have to, I think, kind. of get around the table and just go. what is okay. and what isn't okay. And this feels like. maybe it's on the other side of the line. of what is okay. And here's the real. issue that's going to happen is you. know, we're in a situation now where CPL. have duty of care and channel 4 have. duty of care and we as viewers are you. know, part of a a long lineage of.

reality TV shows. But if we think it's the wild west now, all of this stuff is now starting on. YouTube. All of these new formats are. starting on YouTube where there is not. that oversight. The money you can get for making a. reality show on YouTube now is. absolutely immense. The sort of. personalities you could run these sort. of shows are as well. So we are going to. get an awful lot of experiments in the. next 2 3 5 years along these lines which.

we have almost no oversight. over whatever. So the whole situation is. going to get much much much much worse. because all of these protocols that. broadcast television has had to. develop over the years, they do not. apply to this new generation of program. makers and they will make new mistakes. Talking about the fall of civilization, after these adverts we're going to be. talking about the enhanced games which. was on on Sunday and I would say it's. quite a spectacle but perhaps not in the.

way that the organizers were hoping. >> This is the athletic competition where. all competitors are allowed and in fact. encouraged to take performance-enhancing. drugs. >> Yeah. >> [music]. >> This episode is brought to you by. Lloyds. Now, I love it when characters. are part of a club. You wouldn't know. anything about that, would you Richard? >> The Thursday Murder Club in some ways. reminds me of the A-Team. >> I would now like to map each of those. characters onto the A-Team and feel I. probably could. I mean, Elizabeth is. Hannibal and it's not even close. >> [laughter]. >> That's That's exactly right and Ron is.

Howling Mad Murdock. >> Well, there are definite perks to being. in a club. Just ask the members of Club. Lloyds because with Club Lloyds you can. bank on Lloyds to give you more wherever. you are. >> If you join Club Lloyds, there's all. sorts of benefits you can choose. between. There's, for example, six free. cinema tickets. >> They've got an annual coffee club and. gourmet society membership, which would. be mine. >> And also something that the Thursday. Murder Club would enjoy very, very much. indeed. To top it all off, you have free. free spending abroad, which means. wherever you are, you won't be charged. by Lloyds to use your debit card when.

you're traveling. Now, joining this club. costs £5 per month, but that is refunded. in any month that you pay £2,000 into. your account. >> Now, that is a club that's worth being. part of. Check out Club Lloyds today. You'll need to be a UK resident and aged. 18 or over to apply. >> [music]. >> Welcome back, everybody. Now, the. enhanced games, Richard. Swimming, sprinting, and weight lifting, I. believe. 42 athletes. >> I was going to say, not as you know it, but maybe as you know it, cuz everyone's.

on drugs. Described as the Olympics on steroids, but in this case, literally. And it. happened on Sunday. You'll be shocked to. learn where it happened. Actually, there's two places it might have. happened. One was Riyadh, it wasn't. there. The other was Las Vegas, and it. was there. Perhaps next year it'll be in. Riyadh, and it is a. competition where. athletes, some of whom are genuine. Olympians in the swimming, sprints, and. in weight lifting, attempt to break. world records by using. performance-enhancing.

drugs. It's run by a guy called Christian. Angermayer, who made a fortune from. psilocybin tablets, magic mushrooms. >> He's like AI, psychedelics, and crypto. >> Yes, yeah, absolutely perfect. Although. the more I read about him, the more I. liked him. I'll say I'll say that. Yeah, we will get to that. >> It's also backed by Peter Thiel. >> Donald Trump Jr.'s venture capitalist. firm are investors as well. Now, it's. called the Enhanced Games, and not. because oh, it's, you know, games, but. it's enhanced. It's called enhanced. because it is sponsored by a company.

called Enhanced. And that is Christian. Angermayer's company, and they will. essentially sell you. peptides and testosterone and and all of. these things. All of these things that. where where you know, we've spoken about. before when we talked about looks. magazine and all that stuff. This world. in America that seems to be getting less. and less regulated, especially with the. rise of RFK, where you can improve who. you are. >> All the biohacking, all the. self-optimization, all the longevity. particularly. >> Yeah. >> that these guys are heavily invested in, and the event was connected to a.

platform where you can. >> The event was connected to a shop. >> Yeah. >> Let's call it what it is. >> I mean, when it first came out, Seb Coe, he was chairman of World Athletics at. the time, said, "Oh, this is all. bollocks. I don't get sleep this night. over it. No one's going to watch it. No. one's going to People thought it No one. would screen it." It's like, "Mm, have. you looked at the media over the last. few years? Don't worry. Someone will.". And it was actually on Roku's YouTube. channel. >> Yes, which is not nothing, by the way, these days. >> no, not at all. We live in a completely. different media landscape, and such as. we've just talked about before the. break, don't think that no one will. screen it, cuz someone will always.

screen it. >> Yeah. >> They had it last night, but they had a. training camp a few months ago in Abu. Dhabi. >> That was in Abu Dhabi, yeah. >> Yeah, and they And again, it's all like. I don't know where the stage of this is, but it will obviously, because it hasn't. come out yet, because they will. obviously have to take in the games. itself, but Ridley Scott's company was. going to make a documentary about it. And it was going to be produced by Rob. McElhenney, who did obviously Welcome to. Wrexham. It's all It's all just content, isn't it? It's all. >> Yes. Yeah. >> Well, it's not even just content, it's. an advert. And so, it's it's And it's. fascinating. We talk a lot about how. sport is is the only game left in town.

really on broadcast television and cuz. you have to watch it live and because it. has this sort of genuine drama. But, you. know, if you look at So, in Enhanced, which had had an IPO and is worth over a. billion dollars, this company that would. will sell you peptides and all sorts of. things, you know, in their entry to the. securities exchange when they had their. IPO, they described the Enhanced Games. as simply a marketing tool. This is This. is This is This is not their company. They're not building this thing, you. know, this is literally a a marketing. thing. And you know, they've encouraged.

all these sports people to come and do. it and they put it on on Sunday and lots. of people watched it. Now, the interesting thing about it is. the sports people who were doing it. And. there's all sorts of people who did it. Fred Kerley, who's a Olympic 100 meter. medalist, he did it. He did it clean, weirdly. There's a few athletes in this. Hunter Armstrong, the swimmer as well, who competed clean. >> him beat everyone clean. >> Which we will get to. >> [laughter]. >> Literally the only clean athlete in the. in the Yeah, you ruined our advert, Hunter. Whether they are clean or not, I. don't cuz they can't dope test them.

>> I can't Yeah, I mean, we have to get to the basics of For how. many years have people said about the. Olympics, "Oh, I don't know why they. don't just let them all take drugs and. get on with it." Well, okay, firstly. because it's dangerous and also it's. ethically bankrupt, etc. >> This is a more interesting thing than it. first seems cuz at first sight it seems. like a circus. You think, "Oh, great, the tech bros are course of pumping. people full of drugs and then, you know, winding them up like toys and look. looking to see if they can break world. records." But actually, you look at. someone like Ben Proud, who's the the. British swimmer, who's a silver medalist.

in the Olympics. I mean, that's about as. good as you can get and then, you know, lots of people swim, it's really. difficult and he's one of the very, very. best in the entire world. And you know, he says, "I don't make any money out of. it." So, "I don't make any money out of. it. Someone has said to me, 'I'll give. you a million dollars if you break a. world record.'". >> but that's the the prizes at these games. were extraordinary, really like really. big money. >> Someone has also said, "I'll give you. 250,000 pounds if you win the race and. there's only four people in the race, by. the way." He says, "Well, look, that's.

13 years of national championships that. you know, I I would have got the same. money." So, >> of elite athletes earn under $15,000 a. year. >> There's track and field and swimming and. weightlifting and they've chosen very, very wisely cuz these things are high. profile, but you don't make an awful lot. of money. If you're Usain Bolt, you make. a lot of money. Most people do not make. a lot of money. So, there are there is a. this group of people who are incredible. athletes, who by the way throughout. their entire career have been at the. absolute cutting edge of how to train. You know, the cutting edge of this is a.

new way to do it. The cutting edge of. perhaps you can take this powder. The. cutting edge of seeing people who. they're in a dorm with. taking something illegal and not getting. caught. This is the world that they've. grown up with. They have grown up in a world where they. are absolutely are sort of put through. the ringer. physically and mentally for the. entertainment. of other people, but for not very much. money. So, when someone says to them, "What we will do, we will take you to. Abu Dhabi. We will give you a series of.

chemical interventions, all of which are. legal. in the real world, and then you come to. Vegas, and if you win a race against. three other people, I'll give you. 250,000 lb. And if you break the world. record, I'll give you a million pound.". Very, very hard to imagine what other. than some internal morals would stop you. doing that. as an athlete. Because. how else are you making the money? Ben. Proud would have been training since he. was a child. But you you know, just all. day, every day putting his body through. extraordinary things. Now,

Ben Proud will be aware that there will. be children watching this happening, and. they might be tempted to follow him, and. that's on his conscience. But everything. else involved, you think, "Well, I I. sort of get it. How long How much longer. have you got in this sport? 5 years? 6. years? You want to finally make some. money." And so, that's that's what he's. doing. So, I understand why the athletes. are doing it. And WADA quite rightly. say, "Well, we don't know what these. drugs do." And you think, "Yeah, but. these people they're like Formula 1. cars. You know they've been put through. like unbelievable training regimes,

which are absolutely not natural, and. which bodies are not not supposed to. do.". >> You know, what the from the Colosseum. and probably and before, we've always. watched people. >> less voluntary in the Colosseum. >> Yeah, but we watch people harm. themselves for our sporting. entertainment. What about boxing? What about what we know now about. contact sports and degenerative disease? I mean, we know all these things and in. some cases people are trying really. slowly to find out cuz they don't want. to stop watching those contact sports or. they don't want to have to change the.

rules of those contact sports because. maybe it's just a blip or maybe it's. this or that. We know this. We already. know that people are being made to do. extraordinary and awful things to their. bodies in the cause of our sporting. entertainment. >> Usyk fight over the weekend which ended. very controversially. Do you think So. that sport So that sport that's okay and. this thing in Vegas. is not okay. All I'm saying is morally. it's a very very thin line between the. enhanced games and what sport is anyway. The one thing you definitely don't want.

is to encourage the massive amounts of. putting drugs together in untested ways, you know, and so all all the doctors are. saying we don't know what's going to. happen and of course you you don't know. what's going to happen, but. >> Is it like that scorpion fighting jar. head where they just like you'll watch. anything and you'll bet on on anything. and it's just sportainment and. >> I think, you know, most sport most. sports governing bodies the absolute key. thing they understand and really know is. people want what they're watching to be. fair. That's that is the one. >> But also most sports governing bodies. are some of the worst people out there.

>> they are. Of course they are. >> do it very very badly and they have. mismanaged their sports for so long that. now other opportunities are suggesting. themselves. And I'm not saying that. that's necessarily this, but many many. other things and you can see like all. sorts of breakaway things will happen. because people will feel like I'm sick. of this. You run it badly and I get no. cut of it. And there's all sorts of. different ways in which these kind of. hegemonies and monopolies are going to. break up now that you won't ever say oh.

well who'd screen it. >> Yeah. Now that you know, there's there's. there's so many sporting billionaires. now that there are people in lots and. lots of sports who are going to start. saying I mean I can I might just do this. myself. I might just find a way to make. this slightly more interesting for me. because the sports people are the ones. who are who are drawing the crowds, not. the sports administrators. And I think. that if I was an administrator in pretty. much any sport, I I think people have. got a lot better. I think that's definitely true. But um. this feels like.

when you look at it at first sight, it. it looks absolutely appalling. And when. you actually. pull back the covers, you go, this is. all that was always been happening, but. they are being very they're sort of. telling the truth about it. That's their. narrative. And if James Magnussen, the. Australian swimmer, I'm sure that his. body can probably take more than say. mine, you know? [laughter] And if I was on the. same regime as James Magnussen, who by. the way came fourth in both of his. races, I think you can take two lessons. One, sport has always been very very.

very dodgy, and this [clears throat] is. almost no less dodgy than most sports. has always been. But on the other side, the reason that sport makes so much. money is people love it. And when people. love it, you have that phrase again, a. duty of care to the people who are. watching. And if you're enhanced this. company, then you sell these products. anyway, and so obviously you believe. them to be positive. Then you know, you. have to have a little look in the mirror. and not just be thinking, "God, I look. young." RFK is about to is about to.

sanction more and more peptides and more. and more of these things. So that you. know, lots of these things are going to. be legal in America. Doesn't mean they. should be legal. And this is an advert. for that. So sport on this side, I think. it's fascinating what this says about. sport and how actually as a sporting. thing, I I kind of go, "We've always. done that.". On the other side, it's my god, what. sort of a society are we becoming? >> I agree. The one thing I would say as a. positive was. I don't think it played that well for. them in some ways because the thing that.

you and I adore almost above all things. in sport is its complete. unpredictability. And the fact that some. of the people who taken the most drugs. will fall behind and clean athletes won. You can never fully control this thing. and I sort of love that. >> Yeah. >> You couldn't control it. >> It did it it didn't work the way they. wanted to. The first thing they had was. the one of the women's weightlifting. They they had two events they they were. fairly sure they were going to get a. world record in this. I think they must. have done in in training. One one was.

the women's weightlifting which didn't. quite come down to a world record and. the other was Christian Kolomeez in the. swimming cuz he'd already broken a world. record on drugs. He'd already been given. a million dollars last year as part of. their marketing push and he was the only. one who broke a world record. So he's. he's now made two million dollars out of. this which is quite something. But you. know Ben Proud won one of his races so. he's got a quarter quarter of a million. dollars. So you know I I you know I sort. of get it but as you say Hunter. Armstrong wasn't on drugs. He was. winning. Fred Kerley the sprinter he.

wasn't on drugs. He won the 100 meters. in I was going to say a slow time like. >> Yeah. >> like like I'm can run 9.7 but you know. he run 9.97 or something like that which. which is I mean it's it's competitive. It would would have put him last in the. Olympic final but you know he beat all. the drugged up athletes. >> But they reminded me of advertisers. particularly the organizers cuz. beforehand they kept saying oh you're. going to see so many world records. [clears throat] broken. A bit like when. I look at a advert for some face cream. you're going to excel at this like yeah.

no you're not. Okay it's all a big load. of hype and when it actually happens I'm. not seeing exact I'm not seeing the. thing you told me which is really what. happens with all of these things. Yeah. And also you know a lot of the swimmers. are wearing the speed suits which are. illegal as well. I mean it's the the. they should the interesting thing is the. regime they have been on had made very. very very little difference to their. performance. I don't know if that's. always going to be the case. >> Yeah. >> And also you know a lot of the swimmers. are wearing the speed suits which are. illegal as well. I mean. they should the interesting thing is. the regime they have been on. had made very very very little. difference to their performance. I don't. know if that's always going to be the. case.

>> Yeah. >> What we want to think is oh my god if. you did take all of these things then. suddenly, you know, you you'd be running. 9.4 or something where. >> like any old retail of in the sort of. health and beauty space. >> You know, in 5 years time if they keep. doing them surely they're going to beat. world records because also more and more. and more people are going to do it. because as I say, if you are an athlete. and suddenly it's happened this first. time and you know, the world didn't end. and you haven't made very much money in. your career but you do feel that your. body has been abused and you've been. pushed to do things you don't really. want to do and you feel like you've been. running against people who are doped up.

and all those things through your. career. I don't know why athletes in their kind. of early 30s wouldn't be going oh, do. you know what? Next year I'll do. enhanced games, you know, we'll go to. Abu Dhabi, there's doctors there. I get. it's all supervised. It feels like more. and more athletes. would do it. >> It feels like where you go. I can't name a particular football club. but it feels like where you go where. they have the special medicine and the. special doctors. >> [laughter]. >> There's a There's a football Not in our. country. Where people.

used to go towards in their twilight and. and do very well sometimes. And maybe. that it will be a sort of twilight. staging post. >> Yes, like the senior snooker. >> Mhm. >> Um. >> Which would I want to say is clean. It's. clean. There's no drugs in that sport. >> There are no beta blockers. They used to. have beta blockers. Uh and you know, this is a poor old Bill. Werbeniuk had to drink 16 pints before a. match because he wasn't allowed beta. blockers. >> That's it. >> Now the organizer they had they they. didn't release individual athletes. tournaments but they revealed that 91%.

of the athletes used testosterone, 79%. used human growth hormone, 62% used. stimulants such as Adderall, 50% used. metabolic modulations, great band, 41%. used EPO and 29% used anabolic steroid. agents such as Deca Durabolin. So, these. are all the things that people have been. banned for over the years, lots of which. are perfectly legal in lots of places. but they they sort of find in different. combinations of these things and that's. what we don't know what happens when you. combine all of these things. I thought.

it's Listen, as a spectacle, it wasn't. amazing. They didn't break any records. I think it's a fascinating sign of. things to come though, but. as parents or as you know, just human. beings, uh be wary of the huge amounts of money. that are going in now to marketing. peptides to you and marketing things to. make you. look younger, train harder. Essentially, that whole thing in Vegas was an effort. Treat it as such.

>> Right. Well, the last episode of The. Late Show with Stephen Colbert and. indeed The Late Show at all has gone. out. Remember that CBS axed it in the. midst of the Paramount Sky down steel, which they needed approval from the. Trump administration from and ended up. getting it. Stephen Colbert said it was. an honor and a privilege, you know, the. honor of my life to be here as in that. sort of very goodbye to all that way. Um. the president Trump, needless to say, posted about it in very, very derogatory. ways like he's talentless, he's.

whatever. I mean, >> [snorts]. >> and it's all gone. The end of a huge. era, not just his era. So, in some ways, I can't really say the sun is setting on. late night, but you know what I mean. >> Yeah, but I think the the the really. interesting thing about it is is when. this first happened and Colbert was. taken off air, it was absolutely seen as. a as a harbinger of Oh, okay. Now we. have state-controlled media and this is. straight out of a of a of a playbook. that we're very with and then you know. when Kimmel was suspended as well, we. think Oh, here we go. The whole of late.

night is being dismantled. Satire is. being dismantled. We know this playbook. We've seen this a million times before. But actually, in the time between them announcing that. Colbert is coming off air and now, Kimmel is still there. If anything, he's. you know, got more powerful. Seth Meyers is still. there. You know, everything else is. still going. It feels like you know, the. FCC who who are Trump's lapdogs in the. in this as as as in so many other. things, seem to have lost some of their. bite. You know, they they tried to have. a go at The View, and The View bit back.

So, it feels like it's unfortunate for. Stephen Colbert, of course, but it feels. like this was the wake-up call, perhaps, that the um. American media industry needed. >> Yeah, it's interesting. The last series. I saw got three times its normal. audience, because, you know, if you say. to people, "You're not going to have. this thing anymore, and this is why.". People actually showed up for it. In the. way that after Kimmel came back off his. suspension, there there was a huge sort of surge of. viewers. But, we have to accept equally.

By the way, you I don't think you can. stop any of these things, because, as we. said earlier in this very episode, there. are many, many places that will screen. things nowadays, and we will definitely. get to that in a minute. >> We have to say that late night itself. used to be massive, and even though it was incredibly. expensive to produce. You've got huge. writing staffs, you've got big. production, you've got all sorts of. other things like that. It was. profitable, and you had sponsors, and. you had lots of ad revenue, because. people watched it in a linear way. And.

when you look at all the wars, the late. night wars of the '80s, but most. particularly the '90s, even then, though, these shows were mega expensive, and it's a little bit like buying. sporting rights or something like that. It's You kind of want to have it going. through your pipes, or you want to have. it show on your channels, but it it it does because it's and it's. also it's something that's always been. there. You know, some people will say. now to to you about comedy. commissioning, "Why am I commissioning a. comedy? I mean, just because we always. commission comedies, why am I doing.

that? Because, actually, people aren't. watching them." And definitely, the. point at which I think The Late Show had. got to, it cost $100 million a year to. make, and it made 60 million. So, you. can see that it is a lost leader for the. prestige. Yeah, a lost leader. And also. it's there because we've always had. things like this. Um it's interesting all the other rival. shows. ran reruns sort of out of respect. >> against this last episode. >> Against this last episode. You know, you. can see what's happened. The clips are. bigger than the shows. I mean, the clips.

get huge amounts of the of the opening. monologue or some funny sort of moment. of vignette from them that night show, but. they are also part of the old. monoculture that is dead. In the old. days, obviously, you know, you would to. put it in the most crude terms red and. blue state or, you know, Republicans, Democrats. all watch these shows. They were part of. the shared monoculture. Now, all of. these shows are seen to be kind of. hotbeds of kind of democratic degeneracy. or whatever it is. And all of them they.

are part of one complete siloed side of. things. >> Yeah. >> Which was extraordinary and never. existed in the old days. There there is. not a shared monoculture anymore that. these shows sat at a sort of broad. center of. >> Yeah. >> It doesn't exist anymore. Um and it Yeah, as I say, yeah, it was. hollowed and whatever. It's interesting. what he did next, Stephen Colbert. And I. find this really interesting cuz he did. this. he popped up on public access TV, which. as you know is like mega low-fi and back. in the old days we thought, "Oh my gosh, I can't believe America has this thing.

where like almost anyone can make TV in. Wayne's World." In Wayne's World. And. it's now like, "Oh right, we live in a. culture where almost everyone makes TV. all the time, you know, whether you're. putting on TikTok or YouTube or. whatever." And he hosted Only in Monroe, which is a community access program. I. It's a town of Monroe, Michigan is a. town of I think 20,000 people and he did. this actually the night before or just. before he took up the reins at The Late. Show back in 2015. And on his last night. in um in the actual Late Show chair, he.

said, "The last thing I did before I. took up this job was I hosted this. public access TV show called Only in. Monroe and 12 people watched and to show. business being what it is, I'll probably. That's probably where you're next seeing. me. Indeed, 23 hours later, he was. hosting Only in Monroe. He made it. really incredible. He interviewed the. two women who are the usual hosts. This. is a town of 20,000 people. Monroe is a. tiny And when you see that I mean, this. is very sophisticated. They don't have a. sophisticated setup as this that we're. sitting in our podcast studio. They have. some sort of chairs and a little pot.

plant in the middle, but he got Jack. White to do the music off a stereo and a. reel-to-reel. He got um Eminem came on. and it's [laughter] kind of like, you. know, um that they called Byron Allen. and talked about, you know, what he was. doing. Jeff Daniels was there. Steve. Buscemi They happened to find that there. was somewhere in Monroe called Buscemi's. Pizza or something like that. Steve. Buscemi, no zero relation, did an advert. for them. So, they had all sorts of fun. things and obviously he can create. something wonderful, but it is the first. thing that's on his new YouTube channel.

There is now one thing on Stephen. Colbert's newly minted YouTube channel. and it is his appearance hosting Only in. Monroe. It's sort of interesting. Lots. of people are wondering what he'll do. We do know he will be writing with his. son a Lord of the Rings movie. >> Yes, that's crazy, isn't it? >> Uh that is nuts. Yeah, some sort of like. small section of something from the. Fellowship of the Ring. So, I'm sort of. imagining something a bit like Rogue. One. It's kind of a Star Wars story and. it sits within the whole. >> Yeah. >> lore, but anyway, but then why would you. not go and do a show if you felt like it.

on YouTube? >> Leaving aside the political side of it. for now and that's, you know, why I. prefaced this by saying that all these. other shows are still on. I'm And. there's quite a lot of them. They didn't. really need that many is is the truth, but as you say, that's. >> There are only three daily ones and then. John Oliver's a totally different thing. It's just like a. a one night a week. >> still a lot. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, this was didn't make any money at. all for CBS. Stephen Colbert was. obviously paid. Now, there is zero way. that Stephen Colbert is going to earn.

less money next year than he earned on. that CBS contract because of his name. and because of YouTube and because he. could directly get paid, you know, the. advertising money, he will be making. more money. He will be making much more. money. >> But the show itself will be profitable. If you cuz because everything has become. we're on one now. You're on a form of TV. chat show now. You're on a. a screen visual chat show now. >> So he he will make a fortune in the same. way that Conan makes a fortune from his. show. CBS are not only saving that 40.

million dollars, they're making a lot. more cuz the thing that's replacing. Colbert and The Daily Show, I think is. very very interesting, which is Byron. Allen, who's this amazing guy. He. started as a gag writer for stand-ups at. 14, Byron Allen, and then he did a bit. of. stand-up and he just he absolutely loved. the TV. He's now a multi-multi. billionaire. His company, which is. Entertainment Studios, is worth over 4. billion dollars. He has always run the. show called Comics Unleashed, which to. us would be like a.

panel show, really, but it's it's comics. doing a monologue and it's it's it's. it's sort of lightly kind of tied. together. He also does another show. called Funny You Should Ask, which is. very similar to Celebrity Squares. So. he's run those two shows for years and. years and years, Byron Allen, with loads. of different comics. Um and if you want to know, by the way, how satirical they they are, Norm. Macdonald uh once said uh about Comics. Unleashed, "I think it would be. impossible to be more leashed.". Uh so, you know, and Byron Allen always. said, "Don't do anything topical because. I want these to run and run and run. I.

want to be able to repeat these whenever. whenever I want to do them." So he does. these two shows and they've been going. out after um The Late Show, funnily. enough. And now he said to CBS, "I will. pay you for that slot. I will give you money for that slot. I. will buy that slot from you if you let. me keep the advertising." Which he was. doing years ago, Byron Allen. He's he's. really fascinating. He's made a load of. money by always having smarter ideas. than anyone else. So now instead of. Colbert, you will have Comics Unleashed. or Comics Leashed and Funny You Should. Ask, just.

>> Yeah. >> all day, every day. CBS is saying, we're. doing this until we can work out how to. replace The Late Show, but I don't know. why you would not just keep doing it. because they're getting paid for it. You. know, Byron Allen is taking all the. risk. He's keeping the the advertising. money. He thinks he can find a way of of. of doing it. He can run that without. making a $14 million loss that CBS was. was making. So, that's what's replacing. it, which is. hugely more vanilla. For sure, it is. hugely more vanilla. But, does America really really need. another show that's costing an absolute.

fortune and not paying its way, that. does the same thing as other shows? Because Stephen Colbert can go and do. that because he will be doing that as. well. It feels like everyone wins. >> Yes, he can make a show for I don't know. for for $20 million a year and literally. 15 of that will be profit and he can. take 10 people or whatever it is from. The Late Show and they can do it and we. already know that fun viral TV does not. have to be as we've always thought of. it. But, the other thing is.

that show can't be controlled by. anybody. >> Yeah. >> Even if Brendan Carr and the FCC and all. these people want to play sort of. whack-a-mole with, you know, people. getting out of line or people speaking. against the great dictator, so what? Okay, there is a massive democratized. thing out there that anyone can be a hit. on and you can be sure if he decides to. be a hit, Stephen Colbert on it, he will. be. And really good people will come. there and then no one will control them. and they won't get to YouTube and they. won't stop because if he can't possibly. control any of that because otherwise.

I mean, it's impossible for him to do. that. So, against legacy old-fashioned. things, he might be able to exact you. know, a measure of revenge or whatever, but you are just growing a whole load of. other rebels and as well as dispatching. a rebel to someone where you just can't. be controlled at all. >> Yeah, that's the irony of the thing. They're shooting themselves in the foot. by releasing these people from late. night cuz late night they do they have. levers that they can pull. Like on. YouTube, they don't have those. They. they don't have the levers. So, I think. I think. Colbert is going to make more money from. it. CBS is going to make more money from. it. The shows that are competitors to.

The Daily Show are stronger than they. were at the time when Colbert was taken. off the air. So, I you know, watch this. space, but we Colbert is going. nowhere. You won't be able to keep these. people down. >> Of course you can't. >> And that I that's I think is very, very. positive. >> Conan has never been bigger or richer. than he is now. A reminder that uh we'll. be talking to Steven Spielberg soon. Any. questions you've ever wanted to ask. Steven Spielberg, if you send them to. the Versus Entertainment at. goalhanger.com and we will ask him the. best or the most interesting.

Um any recommendations? >> I really want to recommend Dear England, which is the new James Graham show. Um. it's based on his play, but it's. expanded beyond the Gareth Southgate. verse into the Thomas Tuchel era. And I. actually appeared on in front of a. select committee last week. >> talked about that. >> talked about it, I know. Well, I. It. >> It was It was It was really interesting. in lots of ways, but I It was an. absolute privilege to sit next to James. I think it's so fascinating. He's so.

interested in We talked a lot about. local stories and he talked a lot about. doing stuff in in in Nottingham and. doing stuff with Sherwood, but he's also. interested in these kind of very. popular, populist kind of national. stories. And to write something about. the England football manager. Just as. when he, you know, did that play quiz. which became a brilliant TV series about. the millionaire coughing scandal. He. just does things that people are really. interested in. And I think he is a most. fascinating and interesting person and. it was a privilege to sit next to him.

Dear England about the Gareth Southgate. era and beyond uh. as part of, you know, the start of World. Cup pro- programming. >> Can I say cuz I I watched the whole of. that committee. I thought you were. terrific. But all the way through and he. was great. He had made lots of very, very good, good points, but he did keep. saying and as. Dear England, which is on. BBC. >> on Sunday, you never once um plugged the. podcast. >> I I couldn't believe it. You could have. just said, "And by the way, we're. talking to Steven Spielberg and if you. have. >> Okay, I don't want to talk about only on.

in Monroe and what it normally gets as. public access television, but I can. assure you that committee hearing would. have got considerably fewer viewers than. that. So, I'm sorry I didn't plug the. podcast on it. >> save your ammunition. >> Okay. I I actually didn't think it was. necessary to do that. >> If they always. >> want to use any of my time that I could. have been giving them useful statistics. to to plug our podcast, Richard. And I. have to say that I don't think it is a. huge audience the uh that that that. particular live stream. >> ABC, always be closing. Always be.

closing. I'm going to recommend three. different documentaries that are all on. Netflix and two of them have something. in common. The Jamie Vardy documentary, um which is part of the untold story. that I watched all of the American. untold, which are just sort of smaller. stories from sport. Anyway, they've told. the um Jamie Vardy's career. It's not, you know, Wagatha Christie or anything. like that. It's just. this extraordinary story of him going. from non-league and, you know, really becoming a pro at like 25 and. what happened and then Leicester City. It's It's really really great. And also.

the Miracle of Istanbul, which is about. the the Liverpool Champions League. triumph, as well, is in the same series. That's great. And the Kylie documentary, which is wonderful. It's so great. Both. that though, actually, the Vardy one and. the Kylie one, again, how many times do. we have to see this? The tabloid press. were scum. They were scum. They were the worst of. the worst. Every time you look into what. they did, you're like, "Wow." There were. must have been people there. You think, "How on earth are you sleeping?". >> Oh, yeah.

>> I mean, the Jamie Vardy one, they do. something so unnecessary and so cruel. that is it boggles the mind. And Kylie, as well. And it's it boggles the mind. Anyway, that aside, those three. documentaries, I enjoyed them all very. much. They're all on Netflix. Now, for. our members, Marine, who just started. this incredible series at last week's. one on Treadwell's I absolutely love, but you have it which was free to. everyone, but now it's for members only. Um this week's one is about. >> I'm talking to the brilliant pollster. James Canningasorim who's plugged into.

masses of currents in a much more. technical way all times than I am just. doing all on vibes. And this one is. talking about, you know, was Chalamet. Timothy Chalamet right about diet and. opera and we get into whole idea. classical music and art from where. actually people listen to it they don't. really realize they're listening to it. >> And stats based really. He's got. everyone here. >> it's so fascinating. Anyway, so that is. for our members. If you want to join for. ad free listening and bonus episode, um. it's therestoofentertainment.com.

Otherwise, we will see you on Thursday. >> See you on Thursday. >> [music]. [music].