Kylie Jenner's 'Pervert Glasses'

We sort of got a summer special this. week, fun enough. We're going to talk. about Love Island becoming literally the. biggest show in the entire world. How. that happened and where it leads us. >> Yes, and we're also going to talk about. Kylie Jenner is advertising Meta's new. smart glasses. We're going to talk about. smart glasses. Also, what the kind of. move towards celebrities means for. Silicon Valley and celebrities. Okay, let's get to Love Island. >> Yes. Let's Let's journey to Love Island, which is now an enormous hit. It's In. the US, it is it's the biggest show on.

US TV. Generates kind of huge stars, like lots of reality shows. We're going. to talk about reality shows and how I. think reality stars have become have a. much sort of bigger cultural cachet now. than movie stars. Now, in the past 24. hours, there've been a couple of stories. about Love Island contestants. One's. been removed from the UK version and one. from the US version of the show. But, for Thursday's Q&A episode, I can see. we've had questions about TV participant. vetting. So, why don't we leave those.

aspects of contestant screening until. then? And today, we're talking about it. as a sort of broader cultural. phenomenon. >> So, the the origin story of Love Island. is a fascinating one. So, the last three. seasons, in fact, moved to Peacock in. the States and a new host, Ariana Maddux, who's also worth talking. about cuz she she's a she's an. interesting one. And. three seasons ago, it started really, really, really climbing the ratings. Last season almost doubled its audience. This season has almost doubled it again. So, it's Uber massive. It's beyond.

massive. It's absolutely. huge. >> The Rest Is Entertainment is presented. by Octopus Energy. Now, fan mail is one. of entertainment's strangest bargains. You send total devotion one way on the. understanding that nothing may come. back. >> Certainly in our day, you would write to. a film star or a singer. I wrote to. Howard Jones. And you maybe 3 months later, a sort of. signed photo comes back that's clearly. pro forma. You know, that that you you. know Howard's never really looked at. >> Steve Martin used to have a pro-forma.

sort of thing which we'd just leave. blanks like insert like small details to. to make a joke about how completely. impersonal his personal reply to you. was. So it was just like a standard. thing. >> Impersonal is interesting. That's why. we're talking about this cuz at Octopus. Energy, you always can reply to their. emails. And not only can you reply to. them, they will go to the same small. group of people who always deal with. you. That's like unbelievable. >> It's almost unprecedented that a company. you're giving your your money to will. actually respond to you. >> in some way.

It's a phenomenon. It's making an insane. amount of money. Uh a lot of that money. going to the UK, which is nice cuz it's. a it's a UK format and ITV format. But, to speak to your point about um. ordinary people becoming celebrities and. that being more interesting to people. than uh film stars and what have you. Of course, Love Island started in 2005. as Celebrity Love Island. >> In the UK. >> In the UK. >> that series. >> Whenever you have a successful regular.

show, um the thing you do is you say, "Oh, why don't we do a celebrity version. of this?" And you know, that's that's a. very familiar path to tread. In the case. of Celebrity Love Island, they did two. seasons of it. It was sort of an attempt. to take on Big Brother. It sort of. worked, sort of didn't work. You know, got a lot of column inches um back when. uh columns were measured in inches. But, it didn't really take off. And 10 years. later, um they said, I think it was. Angela Jain at E4 said, "Well, why don't. we bring back Celebrity Love Island but.

without the celebrities? Why don't we. make it ordinary people?" Uh and from. that moment, this franchise was born. And you know, it's been through a few. dips, but it's currently it's never ever. been bigger. They ditched celebrities. They put ordinary people in there. And. more than any other show pretty much, they turn them into characters and. personalities incredibly quickly. >> People. >> in with sort of 20k follower accounts, they leave with a million plus, they get. all, you know, um, sponsorship bonanzas, all of these sorts of things.

>> being a goalkeeper for Cape Verde. >> I was about to say. I mean, everybody. wants to sign him. >> That's the history of the thing. And as. I say, it was it was it was big in the. UK as Love Island then, um, moved over. [clears throat] to the States. Quite. starts, uh, but it now has become. definitively the biggest show in the. world. So, I think it's definitely worth. us talking about it. And, uh, and. talking about what this, uh, this. reverse pivot of going from a celebrity. show into a regular show, uh, why that. made it the biggest show in the world. And interesting sidebar, Traitors in the.

US, which as you know, is is. celebrity-based. >> In the sense that they are all because. as we've talked about on the podcast. before, reality TV is now a sort of. professional class within entertainment. and people hop from show to show. And if. you've, you know, won Big Brother, you. might get onto Traitors or whatever it. is. >> But Traitors now in the States is going. to do a regular version. You know, in. the same way in the UK we went from a. regular version to a celeb version. In. America they're going from a celeb. version to a regular version. That's. when you know you've really made it. When your format is big enough and.

strong enough you can put ordinary. people in it. >> So, talk to me about Love Island and how. it sort of became this phenomenon. >> It's hard to say how it becomes a. phenomenon cuz it's it's it's it's a. regular. television show. And it became a. phenomenon because people kept believing. in it. And, you know, so the team behind. it's quite hard to work out exactly who. came up with Love Island cuz really it's. it's sort of just putting [snorts]. couples, uh, in a villa and letting them. swap. And back in 2005, there were a. billion of those formats. I mean, every.

single format was Six on the Beach, Sex. with My Ex, just just a load of things. where, you know, there were there were. these shifting sands. But this is one. Firstly, it was owned by ITV Studios, so. that people like Rachel Arnold and the. Talkback Snackers who were who were who. were still around now making great. shows. They were there, so I had. brilliant people behind it very, very. early on. It obviously had the money of. an ITV Studios behind it very early on. and a channel as well. And it had a. headwind, and then they just started. making it really, really well. And you. know, we often say, "Oh my god, what a.

great, great idea. That was so obviously. a big hit." But usually with things like. Traitors, Race Across the World, Love. Island, the ideas themselves are fairly. prosaic and very universal. They're just. made incredibly well, and that's what. That's what ITV have done. So, they were. doing that, doing what we would have. done 25 years ago, i.e., making a really. good television show as well as we. possibly could. But I think the key was. at the same time the culture. was changing, and what we thought of as. celebrity was changing.

>> Yeah, I don't think people want. Appetites First of all, the character. types I think have changed in all of. these shows is that we used to watch you. know, it's right back in those you know, 20 years ago like we talked about, we. watched reality TV for the train wrecks. >> Yeah. >> And it was quite simplistic for for. messes and for things like that. People. in reality TV are now seen as heroes, which is very. a definite shift. Like all of these. formats, it's got these kind of terrible. stories and some tragedies in its kind.

of long history, and people who aren't. able to deal with the fame it brings. But then then I suppose that's like. movie history or any type of fame. >> Yeah, and you know, we have a hope. over the years on this podcast we've. spoken quite a lot about those things, and we always will do. You know, we. chose Made in Chelsea first sight. recently. Um so, I think just on this. occasion we can concentrate on something. else, which is there is something. extraordinary about these formats. >> kind of fame in a different kind of. audience. >> But fame in any of its iterations. brings all sorts of issues and.

difficulties and problems, that's for. sure. >> There's another huge show that's just. went absolutely nuts for a particular. reason, which is. in in the US called Summer House. Have. you seen this thing? It's Bravo done. You can you can watch it here. Um and it's essentially some people hot. people go to the Hamptons and share. share a house whatever. But there was a love triangle in it. Someone found out that her best friend. and a guy she had a sort of. situationship with would going behind. her back. Ciara, I mean, it's become so.

massive. It blew up beyond all belief. I. saw this guy saying a sort of reality TV. producer saying Oh, Ciara's this. generation Studio Roberts. There were. these amazing shots of her finding out. about it and then there were these. pictures of her like crouched down. outside the hilariously outside the. Hermes shop in Manhattan on the pavement. and like a passerby helping her when she. sort of found out about it. It's so all. out there. You're involved in all their. dramas all the time. Obviously, they.

have these huge social moments. She now, by the way, has got a million followers. She's going going on Dancing with the. Stars. She is presenting Love Island. After Sun. That is absolute gold dust. And she's obviously got masses of red. carpet and sort of sponsored things like. that. So, I think that what people want. now and I'll contra later we'll come to. why I think this is so why movie stars. in a way are out of step with our kind. of cultural dynamics. What they want is. permanent access. Yes. They want. permanent drama. They want permanent.

candor. They want retail opportunities. All of these things, you know, bring it. And they want. imperfection. And reality TV is still about in the all. of these formats even though it's about. revealing who you are and it's. impossible when you're in these kind of. long-term formats particularly something. like that you can't really hide yourself. in the Love Island thing. >> I [snorts] know. And this this is a a. sticking point with lots of people they. go oh, reality TV isn't real and you. know, you can edit people to look weird. and people play up to the cameras. What. you're saying is right. Long-form stuff.

which Love Island is, which Big Brother. is, you cannot hide yourself. And you. can't edit yourself. You can't edit. yourself and you know, you at home might. be going, "Oh yeah, but I can see. through that." You think, "Yes, everyone. everyone can see through it." And that's. what character is. >> Look at your Look at the other side of. it. Why have they got reality stars who are. exposed in these long formats and people. do feel they're more real than anything. else? >> Yeah. >> You've got influencers, a class of. people which people are also obsessed. with, but sort of actually detest and. think they're lying to them, even though. they are obsessed with them. So, it's a.

kind of complicated relationship, but. they do think that they're lying to them. and that they're managing. >> And then you've got very remote movie. stars which will who will come to that. are not these type of celebrities at all. and they don't respond in real time to. anything. >> Well, there are two there are two This. is the interesting thing, I think, and. this is why reality TV is so powerful is. there are two types of reaction you can. have to somebody on screen. So, that. person on screen is giving you a version. of themselves and you have an opinion on. that. And what you're either saying is, "I.

love that person. They're so authentic, even though they're messy or they're. difficult or you know, they're causing. trouble. They are authentic." Or you're, "I don't believe that person is being. real." And both of those things make for. amazing television. They make for. judgment. It's like someone started at. work and you immediately start talking. about them. You go, "Well, what do What. do we think of X?" It's that, but for. everybody in America. They can all talk. about these people and they go, "Are. they real. or are they not real?" And it doesn't. matter either way because there is a.

there's a built-in reaction to both of. those things. >> And by the end, they do feel that they. are real because they do understand that. the format will expose and that. eventually. >> But people can still be fake. >> People can still be fake. Yes, you can. be a fake person. >> But at least they're really exactly. >> fake. >> But that's exactly it. Everyone's being. real. Some people are fakes, but they're. real fakes. Yeah, they're not No one's. acting up for the cameras because you. cannot do the You know what? The camera. is just. you cannot have that relationship with. it. Like it really. you will always blink first if you're.

looking into a camera. >> I agree. Whereas movie stars, they they. tend to be first of all, they tend to be. very guarded. >> Yeah. >> And the way they deliver what they do is. I think now completely out of kilter. with the dynamics of what we expect in. the modern world. They are on the. opposite of always on. This thing that. they do takes a very long time to. create. The creation of it happens away. and you don't see it. And then you're. presented with this sort of stone tablet. as it were. >> by the way, traditionally has had a. prestige. >> Yes.

>> And and and has a prestige in the. lifetime of the people who are in these. films. And so they still act as if there. is a prestige, which I'm sad to say has. has long gone. >> Yes. It's definitely definitely. degraded. >> Yeah. >> Um and there are so many fewer sort of. fewer of those types of stars for this. reason. That the market is shifting. Um. but nothing in their world happens in. real time. If you look at these reality. shows, you look at like that girl in. Summer House, if you look at. >> Love Island, people can communicate with. these people in real time. Reality. stars, your cultural footprint is. immediate. You can message them. You can.

You can about the dramas that we can see. happening. There are these social media. moments happening all the time where. people maybe find out what's in the. series behind people's back. So they. have a much closer relationship with. >> Yeah. >> their fans. And they are always on. They're constantly monetizing. They have a kind of direct-to-consumer. relationship. The The relationship with. the audience is very very different. Both as a way of selling things cuz they. almost all end up with sponsorships or. >> Yeah. >> in many cases come in to Love Island.

because they want that. Um you know, if. you look at someone like Molly-Mae. Hague, or whatever, she quite obviously. she targeted the show because she wanted. to become a certain type of person and. it has made her that type of person. >> And by the way, no judgment on that. That's the culture. >> Yeah. >> we live in. That's what That's what, you. know, I'd be doing if I was in my. mid-20s. You just You find your route. through. >> But movie stars, they don't particularly. open movies anymore. People are going. for the IP. They're you know. >> Mhm. >> There are certain people like Zendaya or. whatever that people will want to go and. see. But there are many, many fewer. Jacob Elordi, it was really interesting. the other weekend, not the weekend we've.

just had, the one before, I was talking to a 15-year-old girl. about all her cultural tastes, and she. was really I was really grateful to. actually spend a lot of time talking to. me about it. Um and I was talking to her. a bit about the pin-ups, for want of a. better term. And um you know, she was like, "Yeah, yeah, you know, Jacob Elordi, all of. those." But, she said one of the things. she said was, "There's a feeling that we. need more guys, that there aren't guys.". >> Yeah. >> And I said, "That's so interesting, but. why has the market not provided?". Because and I I think it's really.

interesting. If you look at music, music. is dominated by solo women. Reality. television is a female-led medium. >> Books. >> Uh-uh. >> Now, all the biggest-selling authors in. the world are women currently. >> She said, "That just like there's not. enough guys. They don't have enough. pin-ups." And I said, "That's so weird. that there aren't people sort of coming. through and you know, there there was. absolutely no shortage of loads of movie. stars, loads of TV stars, but it's. the women dominate all these things. >> Yeah, it can't all be Harry Styles. >> No, but reality TV is completely.

female-dominated. They are the I mean. they are the power and my I funny. enough, when I am this is a medium I. know absolutely next to nothing about, but I do know this about it. It's like. opera, women This is an art form in. which women wield all the power. >> Yeah. >> We don't care about men in reality TV in. the lots of these shows. >> They're stooges a lot of the time, aren't they? >> They're like punch to my idiots, or. they're a plot device, you know. We In. the Real Housewives, they just sort of. exist around the edge of it. And. actually, when that guy was saying about.

this girl Ciara from Summer House, "Oh, she's this generation's Julia Roberts.". That's what In all of that imperfection, but they're also very ambitious women in. reality television. And all of these. things are what make them compelling as. stars in a way. >> also the the the ambitious thing, cuz it. works the other way around in a way, is. if you are an ambitious a woman in your. early to mid-20s, and you do have ideas. and you do want to be in the middle of. the conversation, this is where you go. >> Yeah, you back yourself. >> All these women back themselves.

>> is a Well, funny enough, um. Ariana Madix, who's been the host for. the last three seasons, um when you look. into her story, she wanted to be a. Broadway performer. You know, so she. trained and did, you know, you know, went went to theater school and you. know, not from a particularly rich. background, certainly not from a. connected background. Um moved to New York to try and get work. in the theater in the way that one would. have done 30 years ago, 40 years ago, 50. years ago. >> A hundred even, yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. And then moves to LA to try. and be an actor. She is a bartender, so.

goes to be a bartender at um the bar. owned by Lisa Vanderpump from uh. Vanderpump Rules, which is an enormous. Bravo show in the States. And did 11. seasons of that, was much loved. And her dream of playing on Broadway. came true cuz she's cast as Roxie Hart. in Chicago because she's a big star, but. but also is amazing. I mean, she's. incredible. Like, something she would. not have been able to do with her lack. of connections. She's not a nepo baby or. anything like that. So, she she found a.

route through um one of these shows to. do the thing that she wanted to do. Um. then she went on Dancing with the Stars, came third. Now she's hosting this and. the whole thing has massively taken off. I mean, she's again, she has a. brilliantly. messy personal life as well cuz she was. she was with Tom Sandoval, um and it. which is. there's so much to unpack. >> But that's what they want. They want. They want [clears throat] ambition and. massive imperfection. >> But also, she's talented. >> Yeah. >> You know, and. >> Oh, yes. >> it's quite hard if you are talented to. make it in this world, especially if you.

have no connections. It is difficult to. do that. And so, while we keep saying, "Oh, all these talented people. you know, keep getting famous." I tell. you who else is getting famous, talented. people. >> Yes. >> But this is the route through that they. are taking because they can't ask their. mom or their dad for a job. So, you. know, they'll they'll do this instead. >> Well, there's a famous quote about. writing, which is writing's easy, you. just open a vein and bleed. But that's a. sort of that's said by someone like Red. Smith or Hemingway or whatever, and it's. a sort of prestigious. >> thought it was Joan Didion, but yeah. >> Yeah, it's attributed to various. different people, but I think whoever.

said it, it would definitely be from the. prestige category. But that idea that. among certain types of writers, you. know, you just lay lay your soul on the. paper and that. and then it's a prestige thing. Whereas. people who do it in this format, you. know, there's there's nothing in reality. that's remotely prestigious. I don't I I. I think there's a sort of full snobbery. There's something about exposing. yourself and being very very open that. is sneered at still in this or but but. maybe by people who don't understand. where it has gone.

>> Cuz it's not sneered at at by the. audience at all. >> No. And and also the audiences are. sometimes sneered at by that group of. people as well because they're going, "Oh, but the can't you see X, Y, and Z?". And the thing you can tell about a. reality TV audiences yes, they can see. X, Y, and Z. Also they see a bunch of. things that you don't see. And sometimes. you get it years ago on like Big. Brother, people would say, "Oh, I hate. all of them." And you go, "If you've. looked through those 16 people and. there's no one you find a human. connection with, uh this is on you.". >> Yes. >> That is on the beauty of these shows is. we find the person who we identify with.

We find the person. in whom we find some heroic. characteristics. We find the person that. we want to get their comeuppance. And. usually. in reality TV, if not in life, those are. the things that happen. But the viewers. of these. >> last time after the first episode, a lot. of people were like, "Oh, I don't know. whether this is going to work." Because. they couldn't allow themselves to. commit. It's like, "Don't worry, this. this will work.". And it was only towards the end when. they thought, "Oh, this is Alan can't. handle being a traitor. This is very. funny.".

>> they felt like they were coming into the. format and that they, you know, they. could maybe give it another shot. Maybe. maybe they'll watch episode two. >> it genuinely has the. the moral nuance and sophistication of a. 19th century novel. >> Yes. I mean an audience is really really. capable of keeping four or five things. in their head at the same time when they. watch these shows and there was drama. drama drama. It's like you know. it's like something that comes out in a. periodical once a week except it comes. out every day and there's there's. cliffhangers. It's genuinely an. incredible form of television. We we we. talked in.

previous times about the exploitation of. people who are on these shows and that's. definitely an issue but in terms of. television and in terms of the. opportunity it provides people who are. on it it's it's kind of unrivaled. It's. like a bullet train through culture. >> I agree and it's but the always the. always on nature of it isn't just the. the format a bit like what we were. talking about when we were talking about. sport and how people are starting to. consume football as just one example. differently which is that instead of. these kind of 90 minute things that. happen relatively infrequently you've.

got all of this plot line and social. activity and everything happening all. around it. >> Well it's like. >> And there's a whole ecosystem of stuff. around that that means that if you're. really into one of these shows you can. sort of get new information and new real. time drama about it every single day. >> Yeah and. it has a lot in in in common with sport. in that if you love sport you can. absolutely immerse yourself in that for. your whole life. You will never run out. of things to talk about. You will never. run out of new story lines. You will. never run out of new characters. There.

will always be a new season and it's the. same with reality TV. It has a huge. amount in common with sport that you. know there are definitely rules but. actually it's slightly out of your. control. You never quite know what's. going to happen. >> But it's fan service. It's audience. service right? In the same way that. recording artists have realized that. they can't disappear for five years and. then come back with an album and. everyone will still be there. This is. we've talked about this before. People. dropping things all the time and just. this constant sort of. just. remaining part of the culture for fear.

of it moving on beyond you. >> So your your your point about movie. stars I think is interesting. I I I. often feel in my position so I have a. you know I have a. present in the culture to. >> It's good having a podcast for you. >> I suppose I say, but I get to talk about.

other things and not myself on this. which is which is what I like. >> But you're there. >> Oh, yeah. But. the idea makes me so tired. >> Yeah. >> When I see the the graft involved. >> Well, you know, and I can see people in. their 20s. It's amazing. You Of course. you constantly have a camera pointed at. yourself and you can do stuff. I I. really really get it. But there comes a. point if you're a movie star, if you're. a TV presenter, or. or an you know, actor or a singer of an. older generation, where you just think I. don't I just don't have the energy to.

turn myself into the product. I really. really don't. And we we have enough. track left that I can write my books and. that's the product and that's enough. And you know, and I'm happy with that. But what everybody would really really. like is for me to be the product and the. books to be the thing that you can buy. because you like that product. And I can. that I cannot get on board with, but. this new generation and these new. generation of TV shows, that is. absolutely the way around that it is. And I really get it and I think it.

brings some really interesting things. into our culture. And I think it brings. some really interesting people into our. culture who'd have had the door shut in. their face before now. Um and so, you know, those are big conclusions to take from a. reality dating show. But that's it's so. enormous and it's so enormous for a. reason which is our our culture has. absolutely changed underneath us from. 2005 and Celebrity Love Island with Jane. Middlemiss to, you know, 2026 and this. behemoth. >> Yes, and it's. above all, it is what audiences want.

>> Yeah, and it's good. >> And they yes, they're giving audiences. what they want. People it's it's I've. said this before but so many writers, people who write comedy or fiction are. obsessed with reality shows because. eventually as you say you point the. camera and eventually people start. making you know reveal themselves but. they also take extraordinary decisions. in the moment and their impulses are so. interesting to watch. And so many like. real prestige writers are obsessed with. these type of. >> Because it reveals character and that's.

>> got to seeing people be put in extreme. situations and then having to make a. choice. >> I would go so far as to say if you love. Middlemarch then you'll love Below Deck. Because it's the same stuff. >> Yeah. >> You know? But yeah, I in conclusion it. is the biggest show in the world and. while there are issues with that. I think it's worth sometimes going Do. you know what this is actually not bad. There is something quite interesting. about this and and there is an audience. that's being super served and an. audience that really really engages and. understands what it is that they're.

watching in a way that if you don't. watch you don't understand. >> Okay, after the break we are going to be. discussing Kylie Jenner's collaboration. with Silicon Valley overlords Meta for. their smart glasses. >> Talk about always on. >> Yeah. >> See you in a moment. >> [music]. >> This episode is brought to you by the. Lloyds 5K house deposit. >> Lloyds are offering a 5K house deposit. which was last seen in 1996. What are your entertainment of the.

1990s? >> I feel guilty talking about the 1990s. because you look back and it was it was. such a golden era. >> We'd never had it so good and we didn't. even realize cuz we were young and we. just thought we were entitled to it all. >> We absolutely took it for granted. Yeah, Britpop was absolutely in its pomp. Oasis playing to a quarter of a million. people. >> You had Blur and Suede and Pulp. >> I'm so sorry. >> amazing movies at the cinema, Trainspotting. I mean it felt a time of. absolute optimism but at the time you. just assume that was the way that the. the world was going.

>> of optimism. >> Yeah. Uh but and part of the optimism, of course, is that mortgages were more. affordable, and that's what Lloyds is is. dealing with right now. >> Yeah, last seen in 1996, Lloyds are now. offering 5K deposit mortgages to. first-time buyers. Search 5K first-time. buyer. >> 1996 average first-time buyer deposits. based on ONS data, subject to status, your home may be repossessed if you. don't keep up repayments. Conditions. apply. >> [music]. >> Welcome back, everybody. Now, before we.

talk about smart glasses, our bonus. episode this week, not just for members, for everyone, I'm doing a series called. The World Cup of. I've done these many. times before in different formats back. when Twitter was at its height. The. first one we're doing is the World Cup. of US sitcoms. I've got John Robinson, Maisie Adam in the studio. >> I'm dying to hear this. >> And we're going through More in Common, our lovely polling friends have polled. the British public. We're going to find. out what the favorite US sitcom of all. time is, but we're going to chat about. our favorites as well, and little. stories about the the sitcoms. So, we're. doing a a whole series of those, but the.

first one, The World Cup of US Sitcoms, will be out this Wednesday for. everybody, and then for members after. that. But it's really good fun, and we. uh I we thought it was going to be a. short recording, and we did a whole. bunch of them, and we were arguing so. much about everything in a in a nice. way. Uh we really really enjoyed it. So, I. I I hope you enjoy that. Talking of enjoyment, I remember a while. back when Google brought out the Google. glasses, and I was like, this is the. worst thing that's ever going to happen. And then I was delighted because they. absolutely failed. No one bought them.

They were an absolute nightmare, and you. thought, good, that's gone away. It has. not gone away, quite the opposite. >> Yeah, smart glasses. There's a new. collaboration, Meta smart glasses. I'm. we're supposed to be going to talk what. it means for both Silicon Valley and. celebrities that who have actually. stayed quite separate, interestingly, in. terms of promotional activity. But Meta. have got have got a deal with Ray-Ban, and they've had these glasses out for a. while, different ones. But and you'll. probably have noticed Mark Zuckerberg. has been or has taken to the stage.

various times wearing them. We'll get to. that in a second. >> if he's refusing to to put them on. >> Yeah, it's well. >> That would be bad. >> Kylie Jenner is the new face of their. new glasses. She They've They've ones. called Star Fire. They cost about three. or four hundred dollars. Her voice is. the AI assistant. She's been very. hands-on, blah blah blah, all the things. celebrities say when they do a brand. collaboration. To me it's quite. interesting because Silicon Valley first. of all it's interesting to me on the. marketing. They don't sell things in. this way. Think of what Everyone has sort of All.

of those companies, all of those tech. overlords have sort of copied Steve. Jobs, which is you know, you walk on. stage and you tell people about a new. piece of hardware. Which I suppose is. fine if it's like or software I guess or. if it's if it's a sort of. some if it's some kind of desktop thing. or a hardware thing or whatever or even. Meta's various other products. But the. sort of corporate narcissism of Mark. Zuckerberg who who would walk on stage. wearing these glasses. It's like, yeah, like you're Earth's most malevolent. dweeb. No one's going to buy anything. off you. Do you You can't disrupt.

everything, mate, okay? Here's how you. actually sell things, okay? You get. really hot people to take sexy photos, aspirational people, and then people. want to buy the thing. So if you have a. look at the pictures of Kylie Jenner. leaning into the camera in her smart. glasses. It's like, all right, you know. Whereas Zuckerberg for a long time is I. think thought he could just walk on a. stage wearing these things. I think. Jimmy Kimmel just describes Zuckerberg. as now dressing like a Chechen molly. dealer. And you know, he walks onto. stage. >> A Chechen molly dealer, okay, yeah. >> But they now have a vice president of.

fashion, Meta. So they did this whole. thing totally different, you know. >> Do you know what? I I literally never. heard back. >> Yeah. >> When I applied for that. >> I Could they just acknowledge the CV? >> Just say you've had it because otherwise. it maybe it went to junk. >> Yeah, can I just check that you received. it? Yeah, but I mean I don't as you know. I don't like to say wearables, but in. this case these are accessories that. they're trying to sell. And this is how. you sell accessories. And it's. interesting that celebrities have. actually mostly stayed away from tech. Kylie Jenner,

obviously these people are completely. plugged into the platforms. They don't. exist really without these platforms. But I remember there was a point where. Kylie Kylie Jenner said something like, "Oh, is anyone else not really feeling. the new Snapchat design?" And it wiped a. billion off the company. But that was a. while back. Don't worry, it's recovered. But. when you think about something like. fashion or jewelry, think of how many. celebrities have deals and campaigns and. whatever. And actually, speaking about. movie stars before the break, that is. actually one way for those people to. stay always on. They're present because.

they are viewable in advertising. campaigns. >> Well, I mean you got I mean you look at. Beckham at the World Cup and he's he's. getting more minutes than any other. player. >> It's absolutely extraordinary. His his. ability to sell everything. >> Well, that's that's the thing about the. the Kardashian-Jenners that there's. nothing they won't sell. Celebrities. have been very wary about doing things. with Silicon Valley. If you look at the. much more kind of typical Silicon Valley. thing reaction, I think celebrities. slightly feel that this thing might. destroy them. >> Yes. >> Movie stars definitely do. And they're. probably right. Scarlett Johansson.

obviously had a huge kind of blow up. about her voice being used as an AI. assistant. Reese Witherspoon recently. who who has a sort of lifestyle portal. and recently said, "Oh, women, we need. to understand AI." All of this. She got. a massive backlash. She wasn't even paid. for, by the way. So, celebrities are. very wary of it, but the. Kardashian-Jenners will sell absolutely. anything. I'm amazed they don't have. defense contracts, amazed. They will. sell anything. Any backlash is water off. a duck's back when they draw their power. from it. They just don't care. So, rather like Beckham There are certain. people who just don't Once you've you.

know promoted a sort of Emirate or. whatever, you don't obviously mind. But. what happened with Instagram is that. that was only made into a which is a. Meta product, obviously. That was only. made into a thing because fashion and. celebrities thought, "Oh, hang on a. second. I can control images of myself. I can release things." And that allowed. people to be always on in a different. way. So, celebrities and movie stars and. what have you made Instagram a thing. And they're now realizing, I think, they. have to do these with these glasses. >> Well, that's the interesting thing about. it cuz so Google Glass launched and it.

was a big tech product. It was a tech. play entirely. It looked like a tech. play, as you say, they were just sort of. worn by the tech bros and it disappeared. entirely. What Meta did very, very early. on is while on one hand thinking about. what the smart glasses can do. And by. the way, we should talk about what smart. glasses do, which means you can Yeah, okay, good. But they teamed up. immediately. They went to. Essilor Luxottica, which is one of those. big brands that essentially owns. everything that you've ever heard of. Uh.

and they are the owners of Ray-Ban. So, they actually they went to the makers of. Ray-Ban and said, "No, we're going to. make a fashion item. We will put all of. the tech inside that fashion item, but. it's going to be fashion first." And, you know, we're constantly told that. tech stocks, you know, trade, you know, 10 times more than any other stock. And. tech has suddenly realized that actually. fashion stocks are the ones that really. trade above everything. So, they have. put all of the tech inside the fashion. item, but it's going to be fashion. first. >> Yeah. >> Don't bother doing a deal with Ray-Ban. if Mark Zuckerberg is going to wander. out. I don't want to buy anything off. him. >> And so, Kylie Jenner, I think,

interestingly, I think these were. already a hit before she signed up with. them. You know, they sold a million in a. year. They reckon they've sold 3 million. a year. People are actually using them. and wearing them. And it got to the. point, I think, where she was able to. say, "Oh, okay, this is a fashion. thing." And it got to the point where. she was able to say, "Oh, okay, this is. a fashion thing.". >> made by Ray-Ban and whatever, but they. didn't look fashion. Now, the ones she's. done look fashion. >> look fashion. Yeah. I mean, as Listen, I. I I have so much more to say about this, but you know, since I got turned down. for the VP job at Meta,

I just I feel Yeah, I save it. >> Snapchat Snap are bringing out some. glasses, but they again, >> You can't to glasses snap. That's a terrible idea. >> Yeah, maybe yes snap glasses. Stephen. Myers is going to do the campaign Kygo. but they've they've got loads of. celebrities doing those. So this is. becoming a different thing and yet they. are are they not Richard like the one of. the dark darkest iterations of. surveillance capitalism surely. >> They might be the worst thing in the. world I think. So. >> They're literally power up glasses. >> So they're power up glasses for sure.

It's weird they didn't go with that. name. So you they are. essentially glasses which are a camera. which have speakers as well which have. recording capability both audio and. visual. So you can walk around. essentially either filming what is right. in front of you or live streaming what. is in front of you. I mean particularly. live streaming that's that's without. consent. You can do all of those things. New ones have AI capability. So whenever. you're looking around it can it can be. telling giving you information about. what's around you. They say oh you can.

find out what sort of tree is next to. you. >> And many of the firms have plans to. integrate facial recognition into the. into these systems. >> If anyone ever were to do that there was. two Harvard students in there in 2024. who they did a viral demonstration with. Ray-Ban meta glasses. They combined it. with facial recognition software which. some of the company say they're not. going to put in but we know they would. eventually some of them. and also public databases and they could. identify strangers on the street in real. time. They surfaced names addresses and. phone numbers within seconds. The.

experiment was dubbed I x-ray and it. sparked widespread alarm but that was a. year and a half ago and that that alarm. seems to have dispersed a little bit. It'd be handy though when you can't. remember someone's name. That actually is handy and it will it. will it will get rid of the the. embarrassment I see almost on a daily. basis of if I'm walking down the street. and someone recognizes me but isn't sure. wherefore they know they know my face so. assume I'm someone from work. And so. they'll give me like a really sort of. slight embarrassed nod. It will solve that for them cuz they'll. go oh Well, that guy from.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I've got to run through all the hits. >> Yeah. Whichever show I do. >> And as in the same way that people will. unblock phones for you, you know, you. can just go to the shop on the high. street and someone will unblock the. phone. Someone will disable the. recording light for you for like $100 or. something in the UK. >> Yes. So so they have a little recording. This is. >> supposed to show that they're. >> Meta have Meta have thought of thought. of all this. So they've got a tiny tiny. light which is on when someone's. recording. >> But you can have it. >> You can obviously just cover it up. It's. like the easiest thing in the world. And. we do recognize that Meta are above.

everything. a data company. >> Yeah. >> An information company. So while they. say, "Oh no, but we will have pretty. strong safeguards in place. when these are being used. Let me tell. you, I'm aware that all of our previous. products we said that and it hasn't. really paid off, but the these ones. you're going to be absolutely fine." So. you're going to be walking around a. street where everyone is going to be. wearing Ray-Bans. They're all filming. you at all times. They can capture what. you're saying. They'll They'll be an AI. display telling them who you are. All of.

that stuff is possible. All of all of. that stuff is probable. And now they're. being advertised by the. most beautiful people on the planet and. built by a company with an almost. endless reserve of money. >> That's scary, right? >> Yeah, I do. And I think it is a I would. you know, if you were advising people as. I say, the Kardashian-Jenners they. literally don't care hardly what they. advertise, but a lot of other people. would think, "Do I really want to be. associated with these things that the.

law is so far behind as always. The law. is so far behind in being able to keep. up with this. How do you consent? You. know, they are complete We know that. they are People call them creep magnets. They're pervert glasses. You can see. pick up artists filming all the time. And and then just immediately posting. And you haven't obtained people's. consent. There's stories about people. who have fled abusive relationships and. then it's quite clear if they're being. filmed at work. Because lots of people. just do like, well, someone we might. talk about, Michael Barrymore,

bizarrely. >> Yes, he's. Barrymore meets Zuckerberg. >> Michael Barrymore, if you don't know who. he was, our younger audience, Michael. Barrymore was a massive light. entertainment presence on British. television for a long time. He hosted. loads and loads of the big shows. He was. loved, funny, and he was biggest, you. know, >> He was Ant plus Deck. >> Yeah. He came out as gay relatively late. on in his career. He. um and then there was this huge scandal. where somebody was found dead in his.

pool after a party, and that person, a. man had been sexually assaulted. It was. not clear what happened. It's never been. fully clear what has happened. Michael. Barrymore was never charged with any. offense, but he effectively fell. completely from grace in that moment. >> Yeah, he's someone who actually was. canceled. People complain about being. canceled. Yeah, yeah. >> you hear a lot about oh, Nigel Farage. has got so many followers on TikTok. He's got 1.5 million. Michael Barrymore. has 4.4 million. >> Yeah. >> reposted by people like Sabrina. Carpenter. And what he does is he just. basically sort of wears glasses like.

this or he and he goes out to the shops. and buys munchies and things like that. and. >> and chat. >> and chats and he puts it on on TikTok. and he has got a huge following from it. He probably earns at least a quarter of. a million a year from it and it's a. very, very big thing. But again, people. were saying, well, hang on a second, if. you're recording people in whatever, the. supermarket, >> Yes. >> none of these people have really. consented. There are people There have. been stories. I'm not saying that this. is true of the people who he has filmed, but there have been stories of people.

who've fled abusive relationships or. whatever. And then if you put it on a. sort of mass viewership platform where. you it gets masses of hits and you. think, oh, okay, that person works in, you know, the Asda or wherever, then you. are effectively doxing people. >> Yes, so this week, funnily enough, Asda, the shop workers union, came out and. said you you you you can't do this. They're talking directly to Barrymore. because it's so high profile and he was. filming in shops. And by the way, no one. who's in those videos has personally. complained, but they they they raised it. with the store just to say, "Look, by the way, this stuff is going out, and.

I don't know who's in the background, and no one has signed a release form.". If you sign any If you film anyone in a. in a shop and break the TV, they have to. sign a release form to say, "That's. fine." And by the way, of course, 99% of. people are very happy with that. But if. you are going around He's sort of an. interesting test case, Michael Baramo, cuz as you say, 4.4 million followers, and his whole stick is he will he will. just go around and. talking to people and put put those. interactions out. >> But there's something so different even. for I mean, we know that the hardware is. to bring it even back to the glasses, there is something so different even.

between holding a phone up, so people. know sort of they're being filmed, and. filming with glasses, where people don't. really know they're being filmed, or. don't understand it in the same. >> way, I'm sure that he is telling people. that he's doing that, but it but it it. would be very easy to do without without. doing that. >> the way, so many people don't tell. people, and you can quite you can see on. TikTok there are massive amounts of. footage being done. Yeah. So, the. hardware is changing people's behavior. in another even darker way than the last. bit the the last bit did. >> Um the camera quality is now amazing,

the audio quality is now amazing. It's, you know, it would have passed for. broadcast quality, you know, it's it's. just it's incredible what you can do. There are platforms who are ready to. receive this instantly. Every single. time a video goes viral, that is that's. marketing. for the glasses, because you know you. know how it's been filmed. I mean, the. whole thing now becomes an enormous tech. snowball, where it just gets bigger and. bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. >> is miles away from catching up with any. of this. How can you. >> Yeah.

>> you know, that there is there are. consumer protection lawsuits, I think, pending in the US, because people can. see where it's going, but it's very. slow. You can't. >> And also, when you got that much money, who cares? >> Yeah. >> I mean, you know, that's that's the. point. I mean, but you know, it's like. the you know, trying to sue them for. stealing the copyright of every book. ever written. >> Well, they get fined like ridiculous. amounts. They get fined sort of $15. million, which is like 1 second's. profit. >> Yeah, but these things are I do. genuinely think these things are insane. I don't know what one does about that. I. don't know what I would do if I were in.

government about it. I I don't know if. it's a cat that's already out of the. bag. There are loads and loads of. reasons why these things are great, by. the way. What a lovely way to capture. your child's birthday party. They have. live translation in these things. There. there are incredible things about them. As someone visually impaired, these they. could genuinely be transformative. When. you put AI in that and and everything. can become clearer and sharper and you. can explain what something is to me, absolutely transformational. All those things said, there will be.

some terrible things that happen because. of these. There will be some awful. consequences because of these and I. would bet any money that no one pays for. those consequences. >> No, and as always and the other thing is. as we often say with the platforms, you. work for them for free. >> Yeah. >> You pay to work for them for free. So, all of these because all of these things. are training matters AI. All of this. stuff is being fed back and it's. training matters AI in these kind of. human interactions, the things that AI. is less good at. You are working for the.

company and you are training them. Everything that you film with these. glasses, all of that. People basically. work for these companies now. They spend. so many hours a day on these. for these companies that effectively you. spend 6 hours a day working for free for. a tech company. >> And then that. >> That is actually your real job in the. economy. You have this other thing that. you think is to do with it and what. comprises your money and what how you. pay your rent, but actually what you. really do is you work for free down. these people's content mines. >> Yeah, and a lot of those people are the. same utter dullards who tell you that. government's trying to track you all the.

time and say you don't understand how. the world works. You go, you're wearing. their glasses, man. Can I if in case. people feel anxious about this and I. think sometimes when you think about. technology and you think about all of. these things, you know, it is quite. anxiety inducing. The way I always try. and think about these things, you know. how I love nostalgia. So, you look back. at the 1950s and there's lots of things. on Facebook. Oh my god, look at that. street and the cars and we left our. doors open, yada yada, yada. There's a. very, very monetizable accounts on on. Facebook that do that all the time. If. you think of today as the olden days, I.

always find that's a really nice. perspective to have. If you look back. and go, "Oh my god, this literally was. the first time that people were wearing. glasses, like the first time like one of. the union just said, "Oh, you shouldn't. really wear these glasses in our shop.". Can you I mean, it was crazy how. unsophisticated. they were back then. They were I heard a. podcast and they were talking about Love. Island and it was just a thing that. people would sit and watch. Like they. would sit down in front of a screen and. they would watch that. So, I always. think of when you walk down the street, look at the fonts on the signs, look at. the product in the shop and look at the.

wrappers of chocolate bars and imagine. in 40 years time how insanely. old-fashioned that's going to look and. sometimes I think that's quite a nice. way to to get rid of techno-anxiety. >> I'm not sure that yeah. >> So, that not helped you? >> Uh no, I think you know, people were. right to be sort of suspicious of the. robber barons and things like that. >> Oh, of course they were. Yeah. But but. it turns out there's nothing they could. have done about it. So, that's where. anxiety comes from. It comes from our. absolute inability to do anything. >> Well, they did eventually break up some. of the you know, these companies are so.

much bigger than something like Standard. Standard Oil which was dealt with. I. think there are No, I think I think they. should definitely try and break up some. of these. >> Oh, I'm not saying don't do that. I'm. just saying that if you are walking down. the street if you're walking down the. street listening to this and you are not. able to you know, be part of a class. action lawsuit, then one thing you can. do is at least go, "Oh, one day this will all be CP. photographs on whatever Facebook is at. that point.". >> Right. >> Probably be like an artificial dinosaur. living in your house.

Any recommendations? >> I have got a recommendation. It's only. just out and you'll be reading stories. from it all week I should think and. beyond. It's called Regime Change. It's. the book about the the the Trump. presidency by Maggie Haberman and. Jonathan Swan. >> Looking forward to that. >> It's really amazing. I'm I'm sort of in. two minds somehow about how these books. work. When you are reporters, they're. both very very kind of good reporters. Like. you don't necessarily produce Not all of. this is produced for your outlet you. work for all the time. Some of it's kept. for the book, but lots of it needs to be.

written about in a way that I So it just. works particularly well in long form. Um and as a reminder of, you know, we. got become so so desensitized and we. obviously have to desensitize ourselves. But to remind you what you're living. through in terms of the Trump. presidency, it's it's extraordinary and. I can't you'll be As I say, you'll be. reading highlights and lowlights from it. over the next weeks because but it's a. really good reminder of just how insane.

the times through which we're living. are. And so I'd That's Regime Change by. Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan. >> Excellent. I'll recommend a book as. well. I'll recommend John Grisham's new. novel The Widow. I love John Grisham. This is billed as John Grisham's first. who done it and and in a sort of I. suppose a very specific way it is, but. I've you know, there's there's always. plenty of. murders in in a Grisham. But it's you. know, it's it's that thing of within the. first four pages, you're like, "Okay, I. absolutely understand what this is. about." So this widow has got a huge.

amount of money. You don't know where it. is. No one else knows she's got it. And. you're a lawyer. >> Done. >> I mean and also by the way, you've got. gambling debts. John, you have me for 350 pages. >> quickly. >> But it's you know, he's just you know, there's. there's a reason he sold so many books. >> Oh, absolutely. >> Absolutely love that John Grisham. The Widow. >> Other than that, we will be back on. Thursday with a Q&A and tomorrow for. everybody, first episode free, the World. Cup of US Sitcoms.

>> Yeah, I hope you enjoy it. It was really. fun to do. >> I will. I'm listening to it right after. this. >> [music]. [music].