John Grisham: "The Firm" Movie Was a Mess.

Hello listeners. Welcome to this very. special question and answer edition of. the resters entertainment where I'm. Richard Osman. There's no Marina High. today because I am joined by one of my. favorite writers of all time, John. Gisham. He sold well, we discussed. during this episode how many books he. sold. I will say this, if you are any. sort of Gisham fan, you definitely have. to listen. If you are starting to write, if you want to write, you have to. listen. If you're interested in how. people write, you have to listen as. well. He's such an interesting guy. Uh. we talk about everything from The Firm,

which is the thing that absolutely made. him go supernova, all the way through to. his new book, which is the French. illusion, which is uh out on the 29th of. September. But it was a real pleasure. I. sat down with him in Edinburgh at the. Edinburgh Festival. Uh he could not have. been more gracious. And just listening. to him talk about how he writes, what. happened in his career when it went so. huge, and just looking back about, you. know, what writing means to him, the. writers that that he loves. It's all. your questions. you sent so many in.

especially about you know how someone. writes and you know loads and loads of. advice in here as well. Um I hope you. can hear during it as well uh what an. absolute privilege it was for me but. thank you for all of your questions and. here is the rest is entertainment. questions and answers edition with John. Gisham. Uh John Gisham, how lovely to have you. here. We're talking in Edinburgh, one of. my genuine heroes. So it's a it's a. pleasure to talk to you. 400 million. books sold. Does that sound right? Well, last night it was 500 million. So, I'm. not sure what happened in the middle of.

the night, but uh that number is. arbitrary. Some someone I think at. double day just sits around and plays. with that number. There's no way to know. how many books you've sold. I've sold in. 56 languages and 50 books around the. world in 35 years. Nobody can I who. knows? It could be 200 million. >> I'm hearing 600 million. That's a. [laughter] Let's go for 700 million. >> Let's go 700. 34 of a billion copies of. your novels. The rest is entertainment is presented. by Octopus Energy. Now, traditionally,

the entertainment gatekeepers had to. find you before an audience ever could. >> It's been the biggest change really, I. would say, in entertainment in the last. 5 years or so. Just that generation who. grew up making their own content on. YouTube, on Tik Tok and things like. that, suddenly finding themselves right. at the heart of uh of a culture and they. say no one had to commission it from. them. >> Well, we talked before about Kane. Parsons for backrooms. He just made his. incredible sort of YouTube series of. shorts and within a month they'd gone so. big that people were kind of battering. down his door to direct a big movie.

version of it and A24 eventually won and. he created the back rooms which brought. a huge audience online for that first. weekend that was just a phenomenon. So. by the time the traditional gatekeepers. arrive, you may have already proved. there's an audience for what you've. made. You haven't inherited a routine, you have built one yourself. and Octopus. came into energy with customers as the. starting point. It saw they weren't. being well served and built things. differently from there with each account. looked after by the same small team of. around 10 octopus energy specialists.

We have had so many questions from our. listeners. Um I'm going to start you off. with Annne Loftess who asks you this. She says, "I'm currently writing my. first novel. I am determined but I'm. struggling. You've written over 40. novels, but my question is this. How on. earth did you finish the first one? >> It took three years. Uh I learned a. lesson very early on in the process. because I had uh no time to write. I was.

uh had a busy legal career. Not. >> still had a full-time job. >> Well, two a full-time job and a. part-time job. I was a state lawmaker in. Mississippi and that took half my time. I was also uh pretty busy in the law. office trying to make a living in a. small town and the only way I could. write was to get up very early in the. morning. I got in the habit of do and I. learned the lesson do it every day. >> Yeah. >> Same place, same time, same everything. Uh and and write at least one page per. day. At least one page every day with no.

excuses. And until you start doing that, nothing's nothing's going to happen. And. if you do a page a day, at least a page. a day, >> before long, the pages pile up and in a. couple years you've written a book. >> It's amazing, isn't it? You don't think. you're going to. >> It's it's a slow process and you cannot. get in a hurry. It's uh you don't want. to get in a hurry. You want to enjoy the. process. I'm not sure I enjoyed it being. up at 5 in the morning. >> Yeah. >> But over I got I was in such a habit of. doing that. The first book took three. years to write and then I went straight.

to the second book. So over a 5-year. period, I wrote those first two books. Well, the first book was a total flop in. the marketplace. Didn't work. >> It was a time to kill. >> A time to kill. The second book was The. Firm. And when The Firm came out um in. 1991, it changed everything overnight. >> We'll talk about um A Time to Kill. So. when you started writing, where were you in your head there? What. what was the best case scenario for you? What prompted you to do it? I saw.

something in a courtroom one day, uh, a. trial. It was very dramatic and I. thought, you know what? If you take that. story and make a few changes and create. this powerful courtroom drama played out. through the eyes of a young attorney. who's dreaming of the big trial, the big. court in his home courtroom. And that's. what I was living that life. >> I was going to say that was you, right? That was me. So, so the dream in your. writing is actually I'm going to be. something big in law. And it turned into. something. >> I'm going to win this big case. I'm. going to win this big case and it's. going to just it's going to change my.

career and I'm going to be known as a my. at the age of 30 my goal in life was to. be a great courtroom lawyer. Yeah. >> And so I was in trial all the time uh. always volunteering for courtappointed. criminal cases and the stuff nobody else. wanted to take. I was always in the. courtroom and I was on my way I think to. to getting there. It takes time. But I. got a detour when I saw this idea, this. drama. And one day just driving down the. road, I said to myself, why don't you. try to write it? Just start with chapter. 1 and write this drama and see how far.

you can go. >> And it wasn't an immediate. You sold it, but it wasn't that that was not the. beginning of the John Gisham we know. now, right? >> They printed a small unknown publisher. in New York uh that went bankrupt the. following year after they published my. first novel. It didn't sell. They. printed 5,000 hardback copies and we. couldn't give the books away. Uh I. bought a thousand of the [laughter]. 5,000. I was going to try to sell and. make a little money on the retail. Um. but the book didn't work. Uh but by the.

time the time to kill was published in. '89. I had finished almost finished with. the firm and the firm was always going. to be more accessible, more commercial, more dramatic and um that's why I was I. was almost finished with that book and. when it came out a year later it was. changed everything. >> Funny enough, Christine F says, "Writing. the firm must have changed your life. completely. How did that feel at the. time and how do you look back on it. now?" So, a time to kill you knew you.

could write a book. >> so you'd done that. you've proved and I. always think that's the most important. thing is getting to the end of your. first book. So to talk to uh uh an. Loftus there once you got to the end of. the first one you you know then that you. can do it and so you write the firm. then everything goes absolutely nuts. almost immediately. >> One phone call on a Sunday morning in. January of 1990. I was actually at. church and my wife came late to church.

and she said go call New York. And I. said why? It's Sunday morning. And so I. went and called New York and we lived. right down the street in our little. small town and my um agent. said um uh I need your authority to take. the highest offer for the film rights to. the firm. and we had not sold the book rights. >> Oh yeah. >> Our last conversation a month earlier. before Christmas he had said haven't. sold the book yet. We're going to wait.

till the new year. Something will happen. then. But the the firm the the. manuscript had had been around New York. for a few months and nobody uh wanted to. buy it. Uh several publishers had said. no. Uh I was I was involved in a big. trial. I kind of lost interest. So I I. was talking to my agent. I said, "Wait a. minute. Uh we haven't sold the book. rights to the firm. Now you want to sell. the movie rights. What's going on?" And. he said, "Um'll explain it later." Uh he.

said, "Right now, these studios are. sitting by the phones for the final. round of bidding for the film rights.". And the word bidding had a nice ring to. it. >> Yeah. Didn't it just? >> And I said, "Um, okay. Uh, just for the. hell of it, um, how much money are we. talking about?" And he said, "Uh, I'm. asking half a million. Hope to get. $400,000." I said, "4 you and you want. my authority to go do that?". >> [laughter]. >> and he said, "Yeah, okay. You have my.

authority to go do that." Hung up and. went back to church and we sat through. church just, you know, dying. >> and finally raced home with the kids and. uh the phone the phone was ringing and. it was my age. He'd been calling. >> Oh wow. >> He said, "We just sold the film rights. to Paramount Pictures for the firm.". And so uh and I said, "Uh okay." Then he. told me how he had negotiated, did all. his heroic uh negotiations and stuff and. I said, "Fine. Okay, just for the hell. of it, um, how much money am I going to.

get? He said, $600,000, which was more than I had earned in 10. years of practicing law. >> Yeah. >> Gross receipts. >> And I said, okay. Um, nice job. >> Yeah. >> And that was the phone call that uh. turned the world upside down. >> When you start writing, there is a dream. in various heads that you wake sometimes. you wake up in the morning go, "Oh my. god, I could this could sell for. everything. This could be a huge movie. with Tom Cruz. this could be a. bestseller for, you know, years and. years and years and it actually happened.

to you. Do you think there's something. behind that? Do you think I think you. always wanted to write commercial. fiction, right? Do you think you put. yourself in that position or do you. think there was an element of luck? >> Huge element of luck. >> Yeah. >> You have to have a stroke of luck uh. somewhere, but you have to be ready when. luck hits. Okay. You got to kind of make. the luck happen. Um, and that's what. happened to me. And I've always said I. had I had a very fortunate thing. happened to me. I got I got lucky. But.

at the same time, uh, I was able to the. next decision I made, um, when the firm came out and and was. instant bestseller. It came out in March. of 91. And, uh, I was, you know, I was. back in New York taking a victory lab. doing interviews and all this kind of. stuff. and a young executive with a a. book chain made a comment that I had. never thought about before and he said, "Oh, the the big guys come out every.

year.". >> Yeah. >> And I thought, "Yeah." He said, "Yeah, look, Tom Clansancy, Stephen King, Michael Kiton, Robert Lulham, but they. come out every year. The big boys come. out every year." And I thought, "I want. to be a big boy." [laughter]. >> Yeah. Yeah, I want I want to. So, I. raced back home and uh I finished the. Pelican Brief and uh just I mean I was. I'd been working on it uh slowly. I. finished it in a matter of months to get. it back in New York to publish the. following year. >> Well, funny enough, we got a question. from Com Jensen on exactly that, but he. says you've somehow managed to write a a.

book a year, sometimes more than one. book a year. Uh firstly, he says, "Thank. you." That's how you get your question. read out on this show. He says, "Thank. you." But he he says, "I've got two. questions. How do you write a book a. year?" And we we've sort of uh touched. on this. Why do you write a book a year? So, so the why is because that's the. business, you know, you're building a. loyalty. You're building a brand. >> Yeah. It's why why do I still do it? I. mean, I I could have quit years ago. Uh. first of all, I still enjoy it. >> Yeah. >> I mean, this is fun. Okay. Yes. I'd be. home in Virginia doing nothing right.

now, you know. But this, >> which is also fun, by the way. >> It's always fun. I got plenty of that. >> Yeah. >> Uh it's still enjoyable. And also I. write stories about lawyers and issues. and politics and things like that and. the material is just endless. I still. think of as a lawyer. I don't practice. anymore, thank God. But I still. understand the law and I'm fascinated by. the law by lawyers, law firms, courts, trials, appeals, judges, uh crime. itself, and and and the actions of.

lawyers. Big law firms blow up. Lawyers. steal money. It's these great stories. that we have all the time. and and I'm. just taking notes. I'm clipping. headlines and and I I have tons of files. of stories of potential stories. And. when you when you follow. lawyers and judges the way I do, uh. always with an eye for a story, the. material is just endless, okay? And I. I'm just addicted to them. I would write. all of them if I could. So the the the. how I do it every year is just the. material is there. Uh why is just I I.

that's what I've done for 40 years and. and I still do it and I still enjoy it. and the books are still popular. >> That's the thing. I think the the the. other the other question of of how that. lots of people were interested in and. you were told this a million times. before but people are endlessly. fascinated is how do you actually write? How do you get 90,000 words roughly. 100,000 for one of your novels? How do. you get that done across a year? What. does your day look like? What does your. year look like in order to to uh do. that? >> Well, it takes a lot. I mean, it takes.

discipline, but it's not, you know, it's. not uh marine style self-disipline, fiscal discipline. It's I start a book. every year on January the 1st, and I. have for years. I start the book, >> yeah, >> on January the 1st. And um the goal is. to finish by July the 1st. That's six. months. A thousand words a day is 5,000. words a week. That's 20,000 a month. That's. >> and that's that's 100,000. Yeah, >> that's the goal. Every time I don't want. I don't want to write a 500page book. I. don't want to read one. I'm getting. lazier. My books are getting thinner.

I'm getting lazier. Um I hope I'm. getting more economical with words. Uh. but that's that's it's not a formula. You do it. This is my goal today is a. thousand words. with no excuses. No days off for the. flu. No days off for this or that. If we. travel, I never write on the road. I. write in one place. Um one one spot. >> in your house. >> In my little office behind the house. the same desk, same chair, same coffee, same no phones, no facts, no internet, no music, no interruptions. Yeah.

>> Uh very quiet from 7 to 10 every. morning. And it's very productive. And. >> and so at 10:00, you're done for the. day. >> Usually by 11:00 I I'll take a break. around 10:00. I'm back and forth to get. coffee and check the internet for. emails, things like that. Make a phone. call or two, take a break. >> But it's from 7 to 10:30 or 11. you when. you write non-stop for four hours, your. brain is pretty well. >> mush. I can do like two and a half and. I'm done. >> Yeah. Two. Yeah. That's if if you really. write good hard stuff for two and a.

half, three, four hours, you got I have. to do something physical. I leave and. and and go work out or go for a hike or. something. And that's that's the that's. the morning. In the afternoon, uh, I I. go to a office in town in the city of. Charlottesville where I live to get away. from the farm, to get away from, uh, all. that and do the administrative stuff. Yeah. >> The business end of it, check in with. New York every day and, uh, but that's. enjoyable. Uh, so, but it's it's a. matter of discipline. And I I love.

stories of writers. who wrote their first novels uh at work. or at break or at midnight or on the. train or on whatever they do their daily. routines they got they found 30 minutes. somewhere and we can all find 30 minutes. somewhere to write at least a page a day. but you got to do it every day. >> I yeah I always think you know if you. got young kids or if you say you got a. demanding job if you can do 200 words a. day you you'll be amazed how quickly you. get up to 20,000. I always think. 20,000's the point where you think I.

have to finish this book now. I there's. no way this is getting shut away and so. you just keep at it. But but that's the. thing, isn't it? It's just day by day. and sooner or later I mean you think. it's this time it's going to be. impossible. This time I'm never going to. finish. Eventually you do finish, right? >> Yeah. It's like a lot of things in life. If you if you look at the at the. monumental challenge of of doing. anything, uh it looks overwhelming, but. you you don't you don't look at it you. don't you don't start that way. You. start, you take a small. baby step, uh 200 words a day, one page,

whatever. Do that for several days, a. week, several weeks, and before you know. it, and you don't want to get in a. hurry. Yeah. >> You don't want to write in a hurry. You. want to write slowly and thoughtfully. and and reflectively and and uh that's. but again, if you write a book every two. years, that's pretty fast. >> Yeah. >> For for publishing uh for for popular. writers, >> how are you at rewriting? I think the. thing that stops a lot of people from. writing is they go back again and again. and again to their first sentence or. their first paragraph or their first. chapter and constantly try and polish it.

instead of moving [clears throat]. forwards. >> I do it every day. Uh when I start each. morning, I I read what I wrote the day. before and do a fair amount of editing. Yeah. >> It also gets you back into the flow of. the story. You know, you know where you. are and and yeah, the the first 30. minutes I'm I'm redoing the day before. Then I'm not going to touch it again. until the end. >> That's the key, right? >> Yeah. Yeah, keep going. Keep going. because you you always have time to fix. it later. Um, you know, it's it's. important to get the first draft down, but make sure it's a pretty good draft.

>> Yeah. >> And then once once you finish the book, once I finish the book, um, I go back. through it and make a million changes. and then my wife reads it and she's got. some opinions. Um, I usually listen to. her. Then it then it goes to new to my. agent who was my editor for years. He's. been my agent for 30 years. And um he. goes through with a very page by page, line by line edit that drives me crazy. every year. And so but I listen to him.

Yeah. >> I still listen to people. Yeah. >> And if something is not working, um. >> my wife says this, I really hate this. character. Yeah. You know, I listen to. that. >> Uh or if she says this part, this part. is really boring you. I can't take that. Okay. I can't if she says if this drags, I can't I'm writing suspense. Okay. >> I I have an American editor. The only. she's so good the just very occasionally. she in brackets she'll just write bored. and I'm like [laughter] and a good. editor never gives you solutions but. they just say and she's always right. It's always oh yeah because of course I. don't need to be back with this.

character at the moment and actually. I've done a bit too much of that. >> repetitious. This is rep you've already. said this three times. Well when you. write stuff when you're writing every. day you don't realize that you're. repeating things and you just can't. remember all the stuff you've written. six months ago. >> Also you're constantly telling yourself. the story. >> Yeah. >> Aren't you? That's the that's the thing. and you you you forget that uh yeah, you. you've already said it. >> But the key the key is is is being. edited to agree to be edited and working. with your editor because a lot of big. writers uh I won't name any names, but.

they they finished the manuscript, they. ship it off to New York and they say, "Don't touch it. Don't I'm done. I'm. writing something else." And you can. tell it this they need an editing and we. all do. >> Yeah, that's exactly. As you say, the. very first time you do that, I say my. first book took three years. And then. when the notes come back, every time. from the second book onwards, I. immediately know what to lose. You just. go, "Oh, I'm not I won't that that's. going to go." So, I just I'm literally. not going to write that sentence cuz I. know it's not going to be there. John, we are going to go to a couple of. adverts. I hope you don't mind. But, uh,

loads more questions from our listeners. right after this. This episode is brought to you by. Lloyds. Now, show business loves a club. >> I love all these sort of unofficial. groupings of people. There's two brat. packs that I'm a big fan of. >> There are two brat packs. >> Yeah, there's two brat packs because. there's the movie brat pack. All of the. Jud Nelson and you know, Rob Low and. Charlie Sheen and all those guys, >> everyone in the Breakfast Club. >> Yeah. And then there's also the brat.

pack of those kind of turn of the '9s. novelists Brett Senellis, Jay Mcernney, Donna Tart. >> And that's the thing creatively it's. actually very very useful to hang out. with other people who are incredibly. talented because you drive each other on. to do things cuz a lot of the British. novelists in the 80s Martin Julian. Barnes Ian Mchuan they all used to sort. of go and have lunch and go and have. dinner and you could just tell you know. they would talk about stuff and they. would make each other's work much better. and that's the benefit of being in a. group bin and a club. and it becomes. more than the sum of its parts. >> Clubs really do have benefits like Club.

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>> It is back everyone. Celebrity Traitors. is back this week. And honestly, for me. and Marina, this is like our World Cup. >> Yeah. For those that don't know, the. first episode from The Castle is coming. out on Thursday, and it's going to be. broadcast every Thursday and Friday. right up until the final. >> Uh now, we're going to be taking this. incredibly seriously this year, as every. year. Every Friday at 10 p.m. you'll. have a full debrief on the week scheming. and plotting on YouTube or wherever you. get your podcast. We'll just be talking. about what you've seen. No spoilers for.

the rest of the series. >> And don't send us any either. See you. there. [music]. >> Welcome back everybody. I am with John. Gisham as you know. And our next. question comes from Elaine Greensbor. Elaine says, "What is the most brutal. industry you've seen? Law, publishing, or movie making?". >> Wow, they're so diverse. Uh, >> good question though, isn't it? >> Great question. Movie making is the. craziest one I've ever encountered. Um,

>> the movies are insane. >> Movies are just insane because then, and. I've been, you know, I've been around on. the fringes for 35 years, especially. nowadays when you can't I've not had a. feature film made in in 20 years. I had. >> And you've had a lot of hits. I had the. 30 years ago, I had I had the the first. wave of the big legal thrillers. Uh the. first five or six movies that looked. easy. >> I'd write the book, they they do the. adaptation, and two years later, the. movie comes out. That's impossible now. >> Yeah. >> Uh and and and this is what really is.

hard to believe. Those are big movies, big box office grosses, domestic and. foreign, big cast, great directors. Cydney Pollock, Alan Pakula, Joel. Schumacher. Wow. um great directors and. everybody made money. >> Yeah, >> we all made money off those movies and. that that that model doesn't work today. >> Yeah. >> Because I don't know why why I can't. explain why, but they Hollywood makes so. few smart adult dramas. Yeah. >> They just don't they they want to make. Spider-Man 10 or whatever. >> And it's all gone to TV, right?

>> Yeah. Hu huge factor is TV and streaming. and which has been good for for all of. us. Um, but it's a it's a different. world and Hollywood is William Goldman, a screenwriter, said that the first. thing you learn about Hollywood is that. nobody knows what's going on. >> Yeah. >> And that's true in so many ways. And. when and when you see a movie, it's a. miracle it got made. >> I mean, I cuz publishing honestly. because I've worked in television for a. very long time. So, and a little bit of. movies. Movies to me is completely. insane. Television is a bit insane.

Publishing I sort of think is quite as. you say you write. >> an editor does a little bit of editing. and then the publisher puts it out. nothing else happens whereas in movies. there's like 500 people you think I. don't know who you are but you're. suddenly telling me what the story. should be. giving you notes giving you notes. everybody everybody gives you notes they. give you notes of you know they tell you. how to fix your script. >> publishing is still um an honorable. business I mean but most people in. publishing still. >> mean what they say they honor their word.

uh if If they if you offered a contract, you read the contract, your lawyer reads. it, you sign a contract, they're going. to deliver. Um, most writers deliver. when they're supposed to deliver, although we're notorious for being late. >> um or drunk or whatever. That's the. danger nature of the profession. >> Or a little bit of both. >> A little bit of both. Uh, but yeah, it's. still it's a very honorable profession. I I have law literary attorneys in New. York I've worked with for years, and. when they deal with the Hollywood. lawyers, they they shake their heads.

They just you you it's a it's a. different it's a jungle. Nobody. >> It's a different species. >> It's a different species. It's a. different type of person out there. And. so I I've always stayed away from it. I've never I've never gone out there. I've never gotten caught up in in all. the glamour. And that was back then. Now. we can't get a film made. And I'm fine. with that, too. >> Oh god. >> I'm fine. I'm happy to stay away from. it. I've read so many bad screenplays. trying to adapt my stuff. I'm stopped. doing that. All I can do all I can. control is the book. I can't. The French. Illusion comes out.

>> uh in three weeks. Okay, the book from. page one, it is a movie. >> It is non-stop action. It's smart. It's. It's got a great plot, great ending, all. that kind of stuff. It's it's made for a. movie. I can't do a single thing today. >> to get that movie made. >> If I gave away the film rights for free, if I wrote the screenplay for free, if I. did everything for free, if I said, "Okay, I I'll I'm going to be involved. in I can't do any of that." It's not. going to work. >> Yeah. It's not going to it's not going. to help the film get made. >> It's like going into a country where you.

don't it's not just you don't understand. the language, you don't understand the. script, like everything is weird. So, French Illusion, which is the uh your. new book, um I would say to anyone who. is on their first book or something at. the moment, just look at the very very. first chapter of this and understand. what it is that you do, which is it is. impossible not to read on, which is what. you've always been amazing at in your. career. Just And then the next chapter, you pass something on top of that. And. then you pass something it and it starts. very domestic. You're like, "Okay, I. know everyone. I I'm in with everyone.

and then suddenly the camera pulls out. and out and out and the world gets. bigger and bigger and bigger." Um, we go. back to movies very quickly. We have a. question from Tim Hatless. A really. simple one. Do you have a favorite. adaptation of one of your books? You. talked about that golden era where you. had hit after hit of great movies, but. did do do you have looking back a. favorite? Francis Ford Copela did the. Rain Maker. >> and it was uh uh he loves writers and he. wanted me on the set uh every day. He. had a brand new espresso machine and he.

he would make a these big thick rich. espressos between takes. So you're. sitting there, he wanted me to drink. espresso with me all day long and we. were just wired, you know, bouncing off. But it was it was watching the movie. made was being made was so boring. It's. nothing is as boring as watching a film. made. But that would and he told me he. said uh he said I'm going to stick to. this. I I'm going to stick to the story. I said please do. That's all you can ask. for. Uh be very faithful to the source. material. And that adaptation was very. good. Matt Damon, Claire D, Danny.

DeVito, John Boyd, really great great. cast. Um the Firm movie was a a mess. It. was it was fun to watch but the ending. was really got lost. Time to kill was. okay. They all enjoyable. The Chamber. was not very good. Um, Gene Hagman was. the old guy on death row and nobody went. to see that movie. They they they. brought it to me by the time by the time. we saw the movie. Um, I had read the. script and when I read the script I said. this thing is in really bad shape. Yeah. Don't don't don't film this.

>> But it's funny that they wouldn't show. that to you much. >> They wouldn't listen. They were I said. too much and they got mad and I said. this is not the story. They filmed it. anyway and it didn't work. Nobody went. to see it. I was kind of glad nobody. went to see it. Uh, but the other the. others movies were big hits. Uh but long. long-winded answer to your question, the. uh favorite adaptation is The Rain. Maker. >> Well, uh Jamie Crook says, "My my. favorite writer is John Gusham. Who is. your favorite writer?". >> Oh gosh, >> that's a tough one, right? >> Oh, tough one. >> We can go around the houses on this a.

little bit. Favorite writers, I'm going. to say. >> Oh boy. Um I love John Lare. Um he when. I read Little Drummer Girl, the book. came out in 1980. I read the book about. 1990. I was trying to write then. >> and I thought to myself, this is a. brilliant book. Um, yeah, >> it's timely. It's still, it's timeless. It's the Palestinian conflict and we. look at where we are now, >> but it's such a great smart uh plot.

It's so many layers to it. The writing. is always brilliant. >> How do you deal I'm I'm love John Larry. How do you deal with reading somebody. who is so brilliant when you are. thinking of writing? That's quite a. tricky one, right? It's very tricky and. and as a general rule, uh I don't write. I don't read fiction when I'm writing. because you we always want to read good. books. Um. and invariably I'll catch myself doing. something if I'm writing that I wouldn't. normally do. I don't know why I just you. catch yourself doing that. You're being. influenced and you don't really realize.

it. So. >> yeah, suddenly there's like a like a. small town lawyer in Mississippi talking. like George Smiley. >> Yeah. I can't do that. But what I what I. I realized this last month I was I was. reading u I'm reading a bunch of. classics again. I was reading Catch 22, which is uh uh it was it was funnier 50. years ago than it is now. >> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. >> But it's so overwritten and uh I I. caught myself writing longer sentences. >> And did you ever meet uh Licari? Did you. ever have that good? >> No, it's one big regret. I uh had. several opportunities. Uh we had a.

standing offer in New York. He we had. the same attorney uh uh this wonderful. literary lawyer that a lot of writers. use. He he passed away 5 years ago. And. when when David would come to town uh to. New York, he would have dinner uh with. this lawyer and I I said I said I would. love to have dinner and meet him. And. the lawyer said, "I'm going to make that. happen." He said, "That would be my. dream is to have you two guys at. dinner." And uh but it just never.

happened. We never got we never made it. happen. I I've came over here a couple. times and um should have reached out. more. I I've have some regrets over the. years where I didn't reach out enough to. people who are no longer with us and I. um I just I try I'm trying to learn from. that, but I'm I'm not naturally um that. outgoing, >> not that garous. >> It takes it takes some work to strike up. a new acquaintance with people and. especially writers who are reclusive to. begin with. And I've I've I've got some. regrets over the years. Um, any writers.

ever given you good advice, writing. advice, life advice? >> In 1991, uh, the firm had just come out and I got. this, uh, letter one day postmark from. Bangor, Maine and I opened it up and it. was from Stephen King and he clipped the. New York Times uh, bestseller list and I. was like number six on the list or. something like that and he just said, "Uh, John, congratulations. welcome to the big leagues. And I.

thought that's pretty cool. >> That's fun. >> So then he uh we met in New York. Uh he. called one I got a phone call out of the. blue one day from Stephen King. Hey John. Stephen King up here in Maine. He said. uh he the National Book Awards were. coming up and people like us are not No, we're not invited. Okay. Yeah. >> It's very high brow. and he said, "I've. got," he said, "I I paid 10,000 bucks. for for a table and my goal is to get a. bunch of commercial writers to go with. me and stink up the joint." [laughter].

>> And I said, "How could I say no to. that?". >> Yeah. >> And so I went and I met him with. Tabitha, his wife, and um Donald. Westlake and who else was at our table. And we had a great time and everybody. was polite, you know. So that's how we. actually met. He came to Oxford, Mississippi, where we lived back then. for the book festival. And we were. riding around. He wanted to go riding. around in a pickup truck to find some. real rednecks. And I said, "Well, I I. can show you a lot of rednecks. [laughter].

I've got a pickup truck." And uh we had. two days together and just great advice. about everything, you know, especially. movies. I was I was in the, you know, we. were doing movies back then that they. were being adapted. And he said, "Look, man, film." He's had every kind of. experience in the world from he won the. Oscar with Kathy Bates and Misery to. actually having to sue somebody to stop. a film from being released. He's had. every kind of experience in the world. 40some fil books or stories adapted to. film. 40. I've had, you know, six or.

seven. And he said, "Here's he said, when you deal with Hollywood, there's. very simple advice. Get all your money. up front. kiss it goodbye and expect it. to be something different. If you don't. like that, don't deal with Hollywood. And I've been I've been that way ever. since. It's going to be something. different. If I don't like it, don't. take the money. >> The real I always think with with books. and all all of that stuff, people are. always interested in movie adaptations. and I absolutely understand that. The.

key I think is the same key as at the. beginning, right? Which is you get up. and you sit down and you write. And. that's still the key today. >> Oh, every day. Every day. >> Got the final question from Sam, then. I'll give her or him uh the final word. Uh and he or she says, "You have lived. the dream of every aspiring novelist. Is. it as good as it is cracked up to be?". >> Well, just beyond what I could have. dreamed. Uh my wife and I still.

walk around the farm and and say to. ourselves, say to each other, um. we could never have we didn't dream all. this. We didn't we our dreams were so. small back then, 30 years ago, 40 years. ago when we got married 45 years ago. now. Uh the whole thing has been like a. a dream. And um and because of that, we've managed to stay grounded and enjoy. life and thankful for family, friends, and and and the career. Uh but yeah,

it's it's it's been everything I I could. have possibly thought of back then. Yeah, >> as I say, we had so many questions for. you. You're people love you. There's so. many people talking about I'm a lawyer. because I read these books and just so. much stuff, so much love for you and. from me as well. So I honestly all the. way from the firm right up to the French. illusion. Thank you for everything. you've done and the the company you've. kept me in and the stories you've told. me. It's it's such a huge I know you. didn't get to meet John Larry but at. least I got to meet John Gisham. So.

thank you John. >> My pleasure. Thank you very much. [music]. [music].