Is Netflix Over?

What's going on at Netflix? Is Netflix. over? >> And if it's not, why is everyone saying. that it is? >> Yes. >> Uh we're also talking about the Ghosts. movie uh and the cast of Ghosts in. particular. It's sort of a a love letter. to them if I'm honest. >> The final thing we're talking about is. updates in Donald Trump's case against. the BBC which are looking at present. there, we say quite positive for the. BBC. >> Who would have thought? >> Who would have thought? >> Um you have a plea before we start. though. >> I can't if anyone has a good source for.

a tongue tongue tongue so her costume, this is not for me. Um it's for one of my children. Um I. would love to hear it because the. alternative costume being suggested is. in such unbelievably bad taste that I'm. If you've got a tongue tongue costume. >> for a tongue tongue costume. There we. go. Um now. Netflix. >> Yes. >> The Rest Is Entertainment is presented. by Octopus Energy whose generation. business backs, builds, and manages. renewable energy projects. On screen though, the practicalities of.

sourcing power are slightly more. negotiable. >> Certainly in scripts. I mean, my. favorite energy source story, Back to. the Future. Of course, they're supposed. to have plutonium. They don't have. plutonium. So they were like. >> in when they go back in time. >> back, yeah. >> So they need to get 1.21 gigawatts. >> Which they get from the lightning strike. which they know is going to happen at. 10:04. Very very clever. Monsters Inc. Now you know where the power source is. in Monsters Inc. >> Everything in Monstropolis is powered by. children's screams which is why they.

need to sort of harvest them. >> Yeah. May not work in real life. >> On screen, keeping the lights on does. seem to require an unnecessary amount of. drama. >> Now Octopus Energy Generation has rather. less need for a screenwriter. It backs, builds, and manages renewable energy. projects with 5.7 gigawatts of capacity. across its portfolio. Enough to power. all the homes and businesses of. Birmingham, Leeds, and Manchester. combined. A slightly more conventional. approach to generating power. >> A few months ago, we talked a little bit.

about this cuz they'd, you know, released their figures and they, you. know, they there's there was a sort of. wide assumption um that they'd won the. streaming wars, you remember a couple of. years back. Yet, their stock price fell. immediately after these figures. Um it's. now 45% down at least on where they were. a year ago. Their market. capitalization's basically half what it. was. And they've just made huge changes, by. which we mean layoffs, to their film and. TV content teams. The The two heads were. are out. Um they've got lots of other.

layoffs are happening, 6% of their. workforce. So, we know that what they need is hits. Um they did have these huge behemoth. shows that haven't really been replaced. So, things like Stranger Things, >> Squid Game, >> Squid Game, um and uh they those things. ended and it's not completely clear. They still have Wednesday, um which. needs to hit very big for them. And they. still have Bridgerton. But in general, they need they need more than that. >> Exactly. And those things, you know, take years to put together. And this is.

a. a generation of audience who are used to. going on YouTube and getting whatever. they want immediately. >> And it's lightning in a bottle to some. degree. It's really hard to say, you. know, I know with the benefit of. hindsight we could all say that Stranger. Things was going to be enormous and that. the Squid Game was. But again, there's. no particular way you can tell the. answer. It's quite clear. >> It's interesting to see sort of what's. going on. Probably the most. high-profile um firing is Bela Bajaria, who was the content chief. And she's.

hugely powerful and significant. >> charge of essentially everything that. you see. She's She's the She's She's the. the number one. >> on on the TV side. She has had the job. for 3 years. She's highly visible. Remember, this is a company that spends. basically 20 billion a year on. programming. It is There's nothing else. out there like it. Um in terms of what. happened, we will be anatomizing it. But. they definitely had a bad run of form. They Q3 is probably their worst for 5. years. Put simply, they have not had any hits.

and they didn't do well at the Emmys. You know, they really want to be in. contention for all awards now and they. didn't do well. There's obviously renewed competition. from Skydance now that Paramount and. Warner's are kind of united under. Kendall Allison. Is there's possibility. was was Casey Bloys who runs. HBO was saying was he offered her her. job. He is he is staying at HBO. >> He's very talented. >> Amazing. But yes, and I there's a sort of sense. that with the layoffs they have to offer.

Wall Street something and they have to. say they need a kind of change story to. be happening. >> that's a story here becomes a narrative. after a while. As you say for so long. it's been Netflix have been who's going. to win the streaming wars? It's Netflix. Oh my goodness, Netflix are getting. linear television. and very very quickly you become the. hunted rather than the hunter and now. the story is YouTube is killing Netflix. And at those moments, by the way, they. they they had their earnings call last. week and it was sort of pretty much what. everybody. expected. It wasn't kind of below what.

it needed to be, but. Wall Street needs exponential growth. That's the point when you're a company. like this you need exponential growth. and in the beginning of a company like. that that exponential growth comes. really from potential. I every sort of. green shoot is seen as oh my god this is. going to something enormous. And Netflix. are now at the stage where. something that ITV and other companies. will understand where they are now a. legacy media stock and that does not. come at the premium. It comes at the. exact opposite of a premium. I money. gets knocked off your share price. So.

they released this Q3 call which is. perfectly, you know, normal and in line. with expectations and yet their share. price fell again. It's down like $65. now. It was $125. at one point. But the underlying financial side of the. business is good. They obviously have an insanely great. business which they grown over. over a very very long period of time. But yeah, they now face that pivot where. they are the established media company. They're probably the.

biggest. media brand in the world in terms of. making content. Uh and that's a tough place to be. because where do you go from there? And. all that Wall Street needs is for you to. go somewhere to really really keep. growing and growing and growing. So. every single thing now. counts against them. And YouTube growing. counts against them. And Apple and. Amazon Prime having hits counts against. them. Even though, by the way, Apple and. Amazon, they're not really content. players. >> money. >> All that stuff is is is is a shop front. >> seems to be a not-for-profit business.

But they have loads of hits and they. obviously won very big at the Emmys. They've got great shows. >> Whereas all Netflix has as a business is. content and subscription. You know, that. that is the business. And so they find. themselves at a fork in the road. the. papers, you go, "Oh my god, they're all. over." I mean, I would argue they're. probably not all over. They've they've. been pretty smart before. >> But I do think that first of all, I. think that their stock. was way overvalued, but that isn't their. fault. That is the financial industry's.

fault. And I think that the potential. for growth was massively overestimated. And the problem is is that their big. problem in all of this is that. engagement growth has slowed down. Um and if you spend 20 billion on. content, which is an insane amount of. money, and you're up 2% in engagement, that is a problem. >> But again, I would argue and if I've. been in this position before with. Endemol, 2% on top of. 10, 15 years of incredible growth is.

still an unbelievably difficult thing to. do. I mean, you have to spend that money. just to pump it up a tiny bit. They've. been through the years of like. double-digit growth, you know, even more. so. They've done all of that stuff. There comes a point where. when you run a company you just want to. go I mean we built it to be massive. Why. don't we just keep it massive? Why don't. we just keep it where it is like really. really ticking along and making money. for everyone? But Wall Street is in that. bit I think cuz it was seen as a stock. that would deliver you huge growth all. the time.

They're just in that transition where. they go okay maybe this is like a you. know a British Airways or a Coca-Cola. where we just hold this stock and let it. do its job for years and years and. years. But it's making that transition. from some sort of cool tech stock to oh. okay this has been around a long time. and it has competitors and there are. issues with the business. I think we. you're right on that pivot point which. is which depresses share prices which is. why which is why I think there's. >> And as I say I think the share price was. overvalued in the first place. Will us talk about individual things.

that people are saying are issues cuz I. think that's quite interesting. Dan Lin. the film chief has also gone. Netflix. famously Ted Sarandos said that cinema. was over and he made some quite you know. abrasive comments to the Hollywood. industry about that that that people. didn't bother driving to theaters. anymore and all of this. and they were giving them people this. experience in their own home. I have to say that I think sometimes. they put things in for a week to to make. it an awards play. because it can't it's not eligible.

unless it's been in cinemas. But they. managed to get directors at the start. over to do things with them because they. paid a huge huge amount of money way. more than anybody else and they kind of. left them alone and that resulted in my. view in some films that. could have benefited from a little bit. more control but because it was very. very enticing to creators because they. were given more creative freedom and. fewer notes. >> Yeah. >> And but you have to give them a lot of. money and that creative freedom in order. that their their movie doesn't open in.

cinemas which is where all directors. want their movies to open. >> And you can see how angry Christopher. Nolan was with Warner's during the. pandemic when they seemed not committed. to theatrical release and he left and. went to Universal. And the biggest. directors. don't want to work unless they get. significant theatrical release. What. happened with Greta Gerwig who's managed. to negotiate this kind of really a. unicorn type of deal because other. people don't have it for Narnia is that. it's going to have a 49-day theatrical. window which is really really long and.

it's completely it's an outlier. They. don't do it anywhere else but now. because she's got it other people it. I I just think it's harder to get. creators now cuz they can see that films. that don't have cinema release just have. less cultural purchase. It's just the. fact of it that you don't when a film. comes out on Netflix it just seems like. something new has come on the service. >> Yeah, I think that Ted Sarandos probably. said that because it would have been. useful for his company if that were to. happen. And also he probably think a 50/50.

perhaps it might happen perhaps cinema. is on the way out. It is definitely not. now I think we can definitively say. that. So I think his mind would have. been changed. Yeah, you look at a movie. like The Rip on Netflix which is a great. great film but it doesn't have cultural. purchase because it didn't open in. theaters. >> Not at all. And things that are not very. good but have had a cinematic release. people are like oh it's come it's come. to the streaming now I'll have a look at. that cuz I know what it is. I've seen. adverts for it on the sides of buses. I've whatever it is it's just got more. cultural penetration. >> Yeah.

>> And it seems like a bigger deal than it. often is. >> And also so many movies open in theaters. and do huge huge huge numbers then on. the streamers. It doesn't it doesn't. affect it at all. It's like releasing a. single from an album and giving it away. free. Does not affect the sales of the. album at all. >> It's the obverse of the the the TV thing. which is that they've got this binge. model that they still like. and I think they will struggle to let go. of but. if you put everything out at once people. do do it in a weekend and then it takes. a very long time to make this type of.

television as you know. And they people. just don't necessarily care in the same. way about the second season. >> like cooking Christmas dinner. >> Yeah. >> You know, it takes a really long time to. do, and then everyone it's finished. within 40 minutes. >> Very quickly, yeah. And you don't care. so much about second seasons. I think that's difficult for them. They. Sometimes they parcel it out, and they. did that very well with Stranger Things, where it was the sort of biggest thing. in the world, and they did it in sort of. three, I think, if memory serves, three. blocks, and it all sort of culminated. last. kind of New Year's This New Year's Eve.

But in general, things they put out I. And I think they're going to. If they go back, as we've said how. often, to something more like a linear. model, that's difficult for them, because they haven't done it before, but. they could do that. >> Yeah. >> Um. A big problem for a lot of people is. what they did with their user interface. and their user experience. There's a lot. of stuff like podcasts, YouTube. creators, you can get somewhere else. All of that stuff being pushed forward, because I think they weren't quite sure. what to do with it all and what to do. with YouTube. And they They changed it.

And I don't think that is regarded as. being a complete success, because they. used to have this unbelievable user. experience, where you got served things. that you wanted, and it was sort of in. the way that the TikTok algorithm is. just miles ahead of everyone else's, and. therefore it's just a very very It's. much more sophisticated as a platform, and people are just like, "What is their. special sauce? How does this work?". Netflix had that. And if they don't have. that anymore, then they have They lose. something that was very very significant. to their business. It was a real. competitive advantage.

>> Yeah, and it's it's hard, because if you. think about them sort of three years. ago, when the first rumblings of this. were happening, again, I'll take it back. to my experience at Endemol. Endemol, we. grew and grew and grew through employing. people and coming up with ideas, then. selling those ideas. And one in 10 of. those ideas would hit big and you sell. it around the world, and that's a really. nice business to have. There came a point where, as we were. bought by successively sort of bigger. and bigger companies with less and less. TV experience, that you had to keep growing at 15% 20%. a year and you could not have a year.

when you didn't grow that much. And. sometimes you will have a year when you. don't have that big hit. And so. everyone started going, "No, that that. we need additional revenue sources. We. need other ways of making money." And so. the business would start going in. different directions and you know, distribution and you know, marketing and. all these different things. And suddenly. the whole core of the business went over. there and came off the creative. Now, we've said before um. when we talked about Channel 4 and. Netflix has got exactly the same issue, which is this is despite what anybody.

says a hits business. And even Wall. Street cares when you have a hit. It is. in a lot of ways all you need. If you're. a well-run company like Netflix, you. just need two shows to really really go. big. Now, the UK is absolutely massively. putting its weight in this. The UK is. the one place that's really firing on. all cylinders. You look at Adolescence. and Black Doves and Baby Reindeer and. all this stuff. >> And actually lots of the foreign. territories non-English the non-English. speaking ones. >> stuff. They're doing great stuff. >> Yeah. But the American product yeah, has.

has suffered. >> Well, it's suffered, but again, sometimes you have a year or 18 months. when you suffer because you cannot have. hits all the time. It just can't be. done. It's impossible. So, what you have. to do you have to trust the right. people. It's like a new manager at a. football club. Sometimes you go, "Oh no, I understand we're not scoring any. goals, but we're playing good football.". >> I saw one graph though and since Bela. Bajaria had been in the job um and it. was just it's it's such a steady. downward step at how much in the Nielsen. ratings Netflix is taking of eyeballs.

basically and it it it it is just a. almost like a straight. down line. >> But again, I think a lot of that comes. cuz she she's, you know, in incredibly. talented and I think a lot of it comes. from the business starts looking. elsewhere and the business starts having. different priorities and you know, big. bits of the marketing of the business. and big bits of just the brain of the. business are going into these. peripherals which where you might find a. different income stream, because when. you you're making content, you know, the. the engagement you get in the states. over here, it's you you become.

saturated. There comes a point where you. there are there are no more people who. can afford Netflix, right? There there. just aren't any. >> in things like an ad tier and. other things like that. >> Because then you kind of go, "Okay, we've got our hundreds of millions. How. do we now monetize those hundreds of. millions?". Uh and. therefore the business starts looking. elsewhere. And the business I honestly. think sometimes the heart of the. business goes away from content. sometimes and goes into let's do deals. with YouTubers for stuff we've already. had. Oh oh, good business, by the way. There was stuff you should do. But at. the heart of the thing. three hits would absolutely rocket fuel.

that share price. >> as well, though? Because part of me. you know, this almost this time last. year I'm trying to remember the exact. dates of it when we were like, "Oh, hang. on a second. Netflix is now in for. Paramount, not for Discovery as well.". And they didn't get it and they sort of. couched it at the time as a it would. have been a nice-to-have. And so when. the Ellisons just completely sort of. overbid, it seemed like a win at the. time that Netflix were kind of. um released from having to buy it and. they got that cash payout.

>> cash, yeah. >> Now people have settled on the idea that. the fact they were even doing it. revealed something about Netflix, which. is that they were concerned about their. growth prospects and this was something. they actually needed to do, not a. nice-to-have. >> at the time, genuinely, I think they. want to buy Warner Brothers cuz I think. they want to put films in cinema cuz I. think they understood that that was the. thing to do. Uh and I think that would have been. great. And there are other studios out. there that could be bought by Netflix. And I think that's a that's you know, they can see cinema, weirdly, has now. become this this sort of.

tech darling is suddenly going, "Oh my. god, we got all these kind of low-fi. movies that are making, you know, half a. billion dollars." It's suddenly cinema. movies seem to be the cool [snorts]. thing and you wouldn't have predicted. that 3 years ago. >> Yeah, but it it it is a statement in of. intent about an asset that you've. effectively paid for and it makes it. seem more culturally important, and it. still does. It still has that cachet if. it's been in cinemas. >> Yeah. >> Um and the other thing I think you would. probably talk about in terms of the sort. of familiar conversations that. happening, which is things like, you.

know, do they put movies in theaters for. longer? Do they. uh um abandon the binge model? Is do. they need more regularly programmed. sports? Because the thing about sport is. Netflix have incredible profit because. they do not pay for sports right. Um and. if you. if you see how much other people in the. US will pay for like the NBA or for. for the football for their football, it's unbelievable amounts of money. >> get rid of their 20 billion content. spend very quickly. >> Oh my god, I mean there's it's.

ridiculous. But they because they don't. pay for sports, but if you don't pay for. sports, people have to buy that. somewhere else, and that means they're. basically buying another streamer that. might have shows that you like, and in. the end you might think oh well, I'll. just I'll just pay for those. So, in. terms of what they're actually going to. do about this, we've obviously we've. already seen the ad tier. Live TV, this is something that people. again, we've talked about this so much. Oh, the thing you disrupted you're. becoming very live. Um. live channels, channels showing one.

thing or in um. one genre, you know, things like um Tubi. and Roku who are growing really fast. >> Yeah, which are free. But they have. those channels they have kind of. dedicated channels for this or that. It's linear. They can bundle things. They can put other things into it. They. can. they might put Peacock in NBC thing. They might get Disney or Fox to do. something. They want channels on their. platform. And in France they did this. deal with TF1. TF1 has ads, but um it. has news, it has things that we don't.

expect to see on Netflix, and you get. you can get TF1 on Netflix now in. France. So, they definitely are going to. want more of those for sure. I think another telling thing they're. doing is. they are giving less and less. information. They were always a bit of a. black box as for a long time and then. they said, "Oh, hang on, we're going to. you know, once we could tell that they. really had they dominated and that they. they felt they'd won the streaming. wars." We suddenly started hearing more. from them. The What We Watch report was. every 6 months. Now they don't report.

quarterly subscriber numbers. What We Watch is not going to be every 6. months anymore. It's going to be once a. year. >> What We Watch is that that's the that's. the. >> That's the That's their yeah. >> who's watched what when. >> At the moment it's. every 6 months. It's now going to be. annual. So they're giving less and less. away. because they don't want people to know. these things. >> And but again it all comes down to share. price. It really all comes down to share. price cuz it's a hugely profitable. business sitting on very very big cash. reserves. But the second you're that. that Wall Street.

is involved in your company narrative is. all important and their narrative has. gone from one where they were the. insurgent to one where they're now the. incumbent. >> Yes. >> Everyone hates incumbents. >> Yes, they do. >> So the big question is do Netflix have. any hits coming up? >> Wednesday's coming back. >> Yeah. >> Um. >> It's huge. >> Yes, they've they've got Lonesome Dove. coming. They've got Of course it's done. that. >> Yes, I know you I knew I knew you would. >> Lonesome Dove so much. >> They've got a Kennedy series. They've. got They've got things coming. Um the.

Dan Brown thing Langdon. They've got. that. >> Yeah, they've got you know, and there's. loads of great stuff coming out of the. UK as well. It's It is one of those. things that you just have to wait for. like two of those shows to hit big at. the same time and suddenly it's Netflix. are fighting back against YouTube and. TikTok. Because otherwise what happens. is. we'll have 5 years now of Netflix being. sort of eaten away at by YouTube and. TikTok and then in 5 years time. something will eat YouTube and TikTok. It's just every 5 years just something.

new will come along which is the Oh my. god, YouTube's business model is through. the floor. They're losing all their. advertising to whatever this new thing. is. Uh it's just, you know, it happens. And. so, what you have to do is look after. the fundamentals and go, "Okay, we want. Netflix still to be a really, really big. content business in 10, 15, 20 years. time." The key thing here is not to kind. of panic about what Wall Street tells. you, and listen to what your gut tells. you, to employ the great creative. people, make great creative content that. people want because there's always money. in great television. Talking of hits, uh.

straight after this break, we will be. talking about Ghosts. This episode is brought to you by our. friends at Lloyds. >> Now, let's talk about movie con artists. Who are your absolute favorites? >> Movies, TV, and book, my answer is the. same, and it's Tom Ripley. >> I was going to say him. It's one of the. greatest characters of all time. >> So, from The Talented Mr. Ripley books. by Patricia Highsmith, there's five of.

them. So, if you like The Talented Mr. Ripley, you are in luck. He's like one. of the worst men in the world, but you. absolutely, you root for him. at all times. >> Now, of course, deception makes for. excellent entertainment on screen. In. real life, when it's your bank account. being targeted, the charm somewhat. disappears. >> Yep, Lloyds have invested 100 million. pounds in Dark Horse anti-fraud. technology, which combines intelligent. monitoring and real-time alerts to keep. you safe from fraud. >> Click on their app or visit.

lloydsbank.com to find out more about. how Lloyds protects you from fraud. AI-powered scam checks, voice. biometrics, and real-time alerts are. just some of the ways Lloyds are. protecting you, based on Lloyds Banking. Group data, 2023 to 2025. Welcome back, everybody. Now, we have. some housekeeping before we dive into. Ghosts. Um and it's the last week of. Celebrity Traitors, I hardly need to.

tell most of our audience. Um, and we. will be doing reaction episodes on. Thursday and Friday. The what That's. 9:30 the Friday one just immediately. Um, and it's also for our members, we. return to the Bond series. >> back. >> Bond is back. Um, and you can join at. therestisentertainment.com. >> Ad-free listening, all of that's. available on the app. >> Now, can we talk about Ghosts? Now, plenty of people that listen to this. hopefully may have been to see this film.

over the weekend or are going to see it. over the half-term. Lionsgate who made. it have very, very quickly turned this. around after filming to put it out in. exactly this week's half-term. It's. Halloween, so it's a perfect time for. Ghosts. Uh, I've seen it, you've seen it as. well. I'll I'll start this whole thing. off by saying it is magnificent. >> Brilliant. >> It's so great. It's everything you want. it to be. And it's everything that makes. that group of performers They're so. smart, so stupid, so so wise, so warm. It's just I I thought it was a beautiful. piece of work. >> for a feature film because they've been.

able to do I was talking to Ben Willbond. who's part of them who I I go very, very. far back with. Um, we used to do comedy. together at university. And he was. saying, "Yeah, it's different with the. feature, you know, what they contrive to. do in this is to get the ghosts out of. the house." That's not a spoiler, but. you couldn't really do that in the. sitcom or they wouldn't have wanted to. do that because they feel like it's like. an instant shot jumping. Although we'll. talk about the massive global phenomenon. this has become because it's in so many. different territories now. Um, and then.

but to cut but for a feature you can do. something totally different and it. really works as a feature. >> There's a moment uh that involves BMXs. where literally the whole cinema I was. in just gasped and then cheered. You. know, it's that sort of movie. So, if. you haven't seen it, it's it's a real. half-term treat. So, this um should we. go back to where this all began, this. gang? So, there's six of them. There's. six people who who write and perform in. Ghosts. Jim Howick, Martha Howe-Douglas, Mat Baynton, Simon Farnaby, Ben. Willbond, and Laurence Rickard. And they. are the same six people who started out.

on Horrible Histories. Now, Horrible. Histories, which was was 2009, it was CBBC. Uh this is where. >> of the great TV programs of all time, and I'm not even exaggerating. It's. absolutely amazing. That that sits on. the BBC service forever. >> and ever. >> And. taught more children about history in a. hilarious way than anything possible. >> And it was pitched. >> a lot about history from it. >> It was pitched to the BBC by a. 10-year-old, by the 10-year-old son of. one of the executives. Clever way to.

pitch a. a kid show. Based on the Terry Deary books. You. know, [clears throat] Terrible Tudors. and all of those bits. He sold tens of. millions of books worldwide. Terry Deary. is obviously a bright man because when. they bought the rights and said we're. going to make it, he just gave them. three notes. He said it just has to be. funny, horrible, and accurate. >> Yeah. >> That's all I want this to be. >> Nailed it. >> Um it looks amazing. That you know, it's. it's beautifully produced. Caroline. Norris who produced them it look I mean, I don't know how they did it for the. money. >> I do not know. I've never understood how. they did it.

>> comes from Greg Jenner, who's a an. historian as I said, Your Dead to Me. podcast. He's brilliant as well. And so. he would, with his team, just do acres. and acres of research, stick it in the. writers' room with those six. and a few others. Uh and they would at. the other end they come up with these. sketches. Now, so that's the six of. them. They did five years of that. It. won BAFTAs. I mean, it won comedy. awards. It won everything. And rightly. so. It is it's it's a sensational piece. of work. Um. but all six of them.

stayed together. Yeah. When Horrible Histories ended, they. decided to come up with a sitcom. And. that sitcom, of course, is. Yonderland on Sky. Uh which which which I I think is sort. of unfair to look at in all of this cuz. everyone loves Horrible Histories. Everyone loves Ghosts. But but Yon but. but Sky made Yonderland three series of. it. Again, it's brilliant. It's incredibly. imaginative. Martha Howe-Douglas is sort. of the lead in that and and the rest of. the gang kind of play just crazy. characters around her. For whatever. reason it didn't have the cultural.

cachet of the other stuff. It's on Sky. >> Is it on Sky? >> Yeah, but I mean it is but it's hard, isn't it? You know, because it's definitively a. great show made by very, very smart. people. Um. they then made a feature film which I. would also strongly recommend this this. half term which is Bill. >> Yeah. >> About William Shakespeare with Matt. Baynton as William Shakespeare and it's. very, very funny. And it's just a I mean. my god, they've got a mood this gang. >> What is really interesting before. Yonderland they had thought about a.

haunted house series and thought maybe. that would be cool and Matt Matt Baynton. said oh you you just couldn't get the. jeopardy into we didn't understand how. to get the jeopardy into it. And then. what they realized was oh I see this is. just like a sort of fourth house share. sitcom. >> Yeah. >> It's you know, I I don't know if there's. a name for that trope but like you know, in fourth roommate situation. Yeah, whatever. And the boredom of it all was. would be amazing. Um and it was funny. I. was um when I was talking to Ben about. this, he.

was saying that they were so lucky. because what Charlotte Moore who ran. the BBC programming at the time did he. said the best thing that ever happened. to us is that we were allowed to make a. 10-minute taster not a pilot. And if you. don't know what tasters are, they're a sort of proof of concept. thing. And. a pilot is very different. Once you've. made a pilot, people are going to say. >> Yeah, you're on now. >> Yeah, I see it. I don't see it. I don't. know maybe this isn't going to work. I. quite like bits of this. >> Yeah. >> But a taster allows you to do the proof.

of concept and he said we made all our. mistakes in that 10-minute taster that. no one has ever seen. Um and we were. forced to kind of confront what it was. because of that. And as a result, when. we wrote the first episode, we had. we had made all those his in a in a four. a thing that was allowed. So, they're. very grateful for that particular way of. doing it, which because it's so it's so. expensive. Once you've made one episode, then people have got to think, "Hang on. a second, they're going to do six of. these? I'm not sure.". Um but to be able to make all them. mistakes and to iron them all out was.

hugely important. But what's. What I find so interesting about it. is that yes, once they got the idea, it's like, "Oh, I see why why this. works.". >> Yeah. >> It has been franchised basically to so. many territories. >> It was one of the few UK sitcoms to be. really, really, really big in America. I. mean, The Office obviously is a. >> Yes. >> good example and Sanford and Son, but. this this in recent times cuz they. remake everything in the States. They'll. do pilots of things. And this has run. and run and run. And it's in Australia,

it's in Germany, it's in I mean, it's. it's all over. >> the time you're hearing, "Oh, they're. doing one in the Czech Republic." And. what he said, "What's amazing about it, what's really lovely, is that. it allows the I want to say local. creators in the diff- other territories. to say, "Well, hang on, our history is. really, really interesting. >> Yeah. >> And we can make this speak to our. culture in a completely different way.". >> for the Americans who have you would. imagine have less history, but you know, they have there's a Viking in there. There's a you know, they they they all. hark back. It's It's interesting cuz as. you say, all the local territories have. have you know, culturally significant.

figures um as their ghosts. There's one. trope. that pretty much has been kept in every. single series across the world. Do you. know what that trope is? >> What Which one? >> It's Simon Farnaby not wearing trousers. It's the. >> Yeah. >> It's the MP. Like Like the American one, it's like he's like a finance bro. He. died He dies with no trousers on. I. think everyone just goes, "You know. what? That's just such a great you know, and. >> It's an international language of no. trousers, guys. >> But you think of the. >> We've.

>> in some kind of way so you just go, "Oh, literally every night I turn up to work. and I'm not wearing trousers.". >> Yeah. >> Okay, that's uh They must have like. blankets, right? In between takes. >> Dry robes. >> Yeah. Uh but it it's. so it's one of those things that in. retrospect looks obvious goes and. absolutely wasn't. >> I would talk I remember talking to Ben. and I was saying it to him when I was. talking about this I said I remember. when we met up and you were saying to me. you know I don't know we're doing the. show for the BBC and I you know and you. said I would be quite yeah I can be. quite Eeyorish about things because.

nothing hit nothing works. as we always say nothing is a hit except. the very few things that are and I. remember and then it obviously has just. become this I mean a complete phenomenon. a complete. >> I think when they worked out and because. that's a group of performers and writers. who have enormous heart and who really. really like human beings and I think. they worked out very quickly that of. course a show about dead people is. really a show about how precious life. is. >> Yeah. >> Right and I think they worked it out and. so the jokes they got covered cuz.

they're so incredibly funny and stupid. so that's covered but then it just got. this incredible heart as well which they. bring to it as just. very decent human beings I was really. struck I went to like a. friends and family screening of this cuz. Ingrid knows them well so she got. invited and I managed I catch the ticket. and I was struck when I went there. about the love in the room for them from. all of their contemporaries some of the. names you mentioned Greg Jenner still. there Caroline Norris was there. Jason Hazel and Joel Morris who wrote on.

Yonderland everybody who ever works with. them sticks around. >> That's terrific. >> Everybody loves them. >> Can I mention one performer who is not. in officially in their collective but. Lolly Adefope who was in the franchise. who I absolutely love. She is so. hilariously funny. By the way I think. she's so funny that you you've got to be. very careful if she's in any frame. because she is going to steal that. frame. She is genuinely hysterical. I. love her so much I think she's. absolutely brilliant. >> Her character in this is sort of you.

couldn't really describe her but she is. just so brilliant at all times. She's. amazing. >> Yeah she's incredible. So yeah, as I. say, it's it's this gang of six and you. never know what's going to happen. You. know, this is a. CBBC tender to, you know, make a history. show and suddenly this. gang of brilliant people who just stick. around and stick around together and. just make great telly and then they've. produced this thing which is going to. bring people such a huge amount of. pleasure this half term. And it's as you. know, my favorite thing in the whole.

world which is make something that's. right in the heart of mainstream but. that is also demonstrably genuinely. brilliant. And it's um. a couple of things I hadn't even hadn't. even occurred to me before watching the. film. I've seen a lot of Ghosts. Is that. um uh Fanny Button is a is a really rude. name. That um I hadn't I hadn't clocked. that um Jim Howick's character is called. Pat Butcher. I sort of did know it was. called Pat Butcher. I properly clocked. it. And it's just full of stuff like. that. It's the people who love. television, love comedy. I'm always very.

envious of of writer actors. >> Yes. >> because you get. they absolutely. writing multiplied by acting absolutely. multi amplifies itself, you know. Writer. actors are are a rare breed and they're. a brilliant. But yeah, I just honestly. just in that room for the people who. work with them for years and years and. years. And I've been in the showbiz. rooms before and I'm sure you have and. it's not always there's not always. universal love in these rooms. And in. this in this room it was it was. universal love and each of them has done. other incredible things outside of this.

and you know, look at um Simon Farnaby. who did Paddington 2. He was he did the. sketch with the Queen. You know, Jim. Howick is in Here We Go. I mean they've. they've all they've all done Matt. Baynton did The Wrong Mans and loads of. other things. So they populate. >> Yeah. >> British comedy. Lots of them have been. on House of Games. Lolly, Lawrence, Matt, Jim have all been on. Uh Michael. McIntyre's House of Games. Uh but it's. you know what? I I just I just thought. given we both love the film and given I. just really really admire them as human. beings, just a a a letter to Ghosts and.

what can be done with human creativity. and. just to get back to our old subject of. AI. There are kids in their teens and. their 20s now who are like these six and. will create things like these six and. will do these extraordinary things. Just. let it come through, give them time, let. them muck about, let them do silly. things. They will create this stuff cuz. every generation's got these people and. we're very lucky to have these six. Um. shall we finish with a a brief little. look at where. Donald Trump versus the BBC currently. stands? >> Yes. Now, this is the legal case, the 10.

billion-dollar legal case that Trump has. brought against the BBC for the. misleading edit in the Panorama that. sort of seemed to suggest he was telling. the January the 6th rioters to fight. even though. in a slightly different way he was, but. they did a misleading edit. They've said. that it was a misleading one. He brought. it in Florida. The Panorama was not. viewable in Florida, but he's used their. unfair and deceptive trade practices. act. Now, remember he has sued a lot of. media organizations. It's kind of. lawfare, you know, for Mr. free speech.

He doesn't half love suing them and he's. won against CBS and ABC. The one against. CNN was dismissed. It's interesting what. he's done here because given the BBC. have acknowledged the edit was. misleading, he has since claimed that. they used AI to insert words into his. speech. Uh no. Um and they're currently in this lawsuit. which is having to be fought in Florida. in the discovery process which is when. you can. you know, you request documents from. each side. And it's very interesting. what the Trump side has offered is.

absolutely risible. Like it's just it's. incredibly slight and the BBC have. complained and said they've produced. absolutely nothing of any substance. The. documents they've given to the case have. either been sort of stuff they've pulled. off the internet or things provided upon. request by the BBC. And Trump was supposed to sit for a. deposition. >> And that would be giving some sort of. oral evidence about the case. >> On oath, Richard, on oath. But he missed. it saying he was busy with matters of. national importance. Obviously, he's.

quite a visible human. And they were. able to see that what in fact he was. doing was a campaign rally in Georgia. and a fundraising event at Mar-a-Lago, which, you know, I guess you could. debate whether it's national importance, but you know, you kind of need to turn. up for your deposition. >> of national importance to the to to the. UK. >> No. And the judge has actually now. ordered Trump to testify and said you. have to sit. >> And this is a US judge. >> This is a US judge who's looking at this. case. Yeah. >> wow. >> has said you have to sit for a. deposition by the 11th of December. Trump is already saying, "Well, I can I. can do it in the second or third week of.

January." Again, but the judge has said, you know, there are lots of sanctions. including the case just being thrown out. if you don't do this. >> you want 10 billion, I presume that. something incredibly serious has. happened. So it you might want to clear. some time in your. >> want to sit down. I would want to sit. down and and and, you know, get my truth. off my chest, Richard. >> If I was suing somebody for 10 billion, I would I'd be available right now. I. would stop the podcast and I would. depose right where I sit. >> that puts things into perspective for. our viewers and listeners.

The BBC have also successfully done. something else, which is quite. interesting. That they've made. Mar-a-Lago part of the discovery. process. >> Yes, how did they do that? I couldn't. work that out. >> Well, they've successfully argued that. that details and and things might be. there because he uses it as part of the. presidency. His side have said it's. literally just a business. So well, I. don't think if you entertain the. Ukrainian president there or any other. president or you constantly use it as. the wing to White House or whatever you. you like to call it, that it isn't. The. BBC basically say he's stalling.

>> So is the legal thing that, you know, he. said obviously this damages his. presidency. So actually they they have a. sort of not a free reign, but there are. there's a big ambit of things that they. could ask to look at and ask his his. thoughts on and ask for factual. documents about. >> yes. And I slightly feel like when we're. talking about this, you know, because. their legal system I don't want to say. it's sophisticated, but it is like. highly developed. >> Okay. >> How should we say that? But, you know, defamation, that's our culture, Richard, cuz we have these ridiculous libel laws. So, we do sort of know quite a lot about.

how to deal with this particular um. complaint. >> It's highly developed like um that car. that's uh Homer designs in The Simpsons. >> [laughter]. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, exactly. I think it's interesting. He lies obviously all the time, as we. know, but he is historically very. nervous about testifying under oath. I. mean, if that were my personality type, I simply would not testify under oath. unless absolutely forced. >> do is I would sue people until they just. gave in. >> Yeah. >> Uh and and if they and and if they. didn't give in, I'd give up. >> Yeah. Now, who's to say whether or not.

this will occur? >> Sorry, I'm not talking about him. Just. saying if it was me. >> This case would involve him testifying. about both his finances. and the January the 6th insurrection. Again, I simply would choose not to do. either of those things. >> But, if you felt so wronged, if you felt. about $10 billion worth of wronged, you. would fight. >> But, the thing about the cases he's. brought against American media. organizations, the boot is sort of so. completely on the other foot because. they kind of caved CBS in the case of. trying to get the Paramount deal over. the line, ABC [snorts] for other reasons.

>> has a lot of power over the American. media. There's There's all sorts of. things he can do and legislate for that. would make their lives very difficult. Less so for the BBC. >> It felt existential in a different way. for them um in that they they had other. things that and they and in my view, they he didn't have proper cases against. either of them at all, and I think it's. dreadful, absolutely dreadful that they. they settled with them. >> Yeah. >> Um. and um it's interesting CNN, which is. run by former um director general of the. BBC, didn't, and in that was eventually. thrown out. It's completely different.

for the BBC. I mean, I'm not saying it's. existential, but it's very, very. significant. They can't roll over for. this in any way. And as I say, you know, libel is our culture, so. we know we know how to deal with this. one. >> Come at us. >> Trump is as I say, he's saying, "Oh, I. can't sit down and testify till second. or third week of January and the judge. is saying, "You have to sit by the 11th. of December." So, I feel we will be. checking in on this story within the. next 6 weeks to see whether he did or. whether they've managed to get some kind.

of other deferral, but I'm not sure he. can use the midterms as an excuse before. the 11th of December cuz he's going to. have a whole month in which he could. quite easily sit under oath and talk. about how this program that he never saw. has has damaged him. >> I mean, listen, we shall see what. happens, but. I'm getting good vibes. >> I'm getting good vibes. I don't think. this bit when he said that they used AI. to put words into his speech. >> Yeah, that's not going to be helpful for. him. >> think there is quite considerable. records of the things he said. And that. the none of them none of them are AI.

>> I thought he doesn't call it AI anymore. Thought I think he thought he called it. SI. >> SI, yeah. >> Yeah. Come on, Trump. Be consistent. >> So, anyway, we will keep watching that. one. >> Yep. Uh, any recommendations this week? >> I've got a couple. Katherine Ryan's. book, Firstborn Daughter. It's. She She writes about being that that. person who has all the family's. passports. You know, she's the person in. control. She's doing lots of the. emotional labor. She But she does it so. funnily. I think she's totally.

brilliant. I really really liked it. I. think she's terrific. Um, and the other thing I would. recommend, which I sort of feel I. recommend every year, but it is. absolutely epic if you get a chance to. see it over the next few months, is. Wildlife Photographer of the Year at the. Natural History Museum. It is the way. they do it each time the way they light. it, the pictures, the storytelling in. those pictures. And some of the pictures. are captured by children under 10. I I. don't know I'm It's unbelievable. But. some of the stories in these these. pictures from around the world are.

absolutely incredible and it's never not. amazing to go and see. You'd just be It. is extraordinary every year. >> Lovely. I'm going to recommend Norm. Macdonald on Netflix documentary about. the comic who people sort of maybe over. here just know from YouTube clips I. suppose he was he was on Weekend Update. on SNL but if you talk to comics they. all say oh this is the funniest comic of. his generation. It's a really really. beautiful story. He's a very very. individual gentleman with very very. individual views on things but by the.

end it's so deeply moving as I say. anyone who's interested in the craft of. comedy and or anyone is interested in. that you know the sort of heart of a. comedian. I really really really loved. it. >> What's in the larder, Richard? >> Well we have as you say for members this. week we have the resumption of the Bond. series. We have Trisha's reaction. episodes on Thursday and Friday and we. have a Q&A on Thursday so a busy week. ahead. >> Busy week. >> But do go and see the Ghost movie if you. haven't seen it.

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