Influencers Taking The Piss & Alex Cooper vs Alix Earle with Richard Osman & Marina Hyde

Today, we are talking about a big feud, Alex Cooper versus Alex Earl, who are. sort of two leading lights in the. digital economy. And we're going to talk. about modern feuds. >> We've had a lot of messages asking us. about this feud. And I know very little. about it, but fortunately I'm sitting. opposite someone who knows a bit more. about it. >> me, I've done my degree in it. We're. also talking about Michael, the Michael. Jackson movie, which is. >> this week. It's going to be. >> week. We. talked about it before, but now it's. enormity is upon us. We've added it as a. curtain raiser to that. And finally,

we're going to discuss. some trash and treasure in this episode. >> It's mainly trash, isn't it? >> Mainly trash, isn't it? Binky Felstead, our sort of second-tier Made in Chelsea. star, who has been dragged on social. media for requesting as she's an. influencer now, and she's requested a. free cake in order for collaboration, etc. And we're going to talk about the. backlash against influencers that that. epitomizes. >> Will somebody please leave influencers. alone? >> Yes. >> I think they're like the miners were in.

the 1980s I think influencers are now. >> Do you? >> Yeah, I really do. >> Okay, can you save that for the Binky. item, cuz I really want to hear that. piece of work. >> to be talking I'm going to be talking. largely about the NUM. >> I think they're like something else, which so I'll talk about that. >> Arthur Scargill is like Spencer. Matthews. But anyway, listen, we'll get. into it. >> I can hardly talk about anything else. now now I know that's coming. >> The Rest Is Entertainment is presented. by Octopus Energy. Admin tends to. require a little bit of encouragement, so submitting your meter reading now.

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Okay, so Alex Cooper versus Alex Earl. >> Here we go. >> now, if you thought these people were. the same person, this is going to come. as quite a shock to you, so I'm sorry. about that, but we'll have to move on. cuz there's a lot to get through. Both. are very They seem similar because. they're both very successful sort of. blonde social media personalities. >> Shall I tell you what I know about Alex. Cooper? >> Yeah, tell me what you know. >> She is like the most successful. podcaster in the world apart from Joe. Rogan. >> Yeah. >> She does Call Her Daddy and she made. like 150 million dollars from it. And. that is where my knowledge runs out.

>> Right. Well, that's good. >> And also, wasn't she the lead singer of. Arctic Monkeys? >> I mean, in a previous life and indeed. sex. Okay, they do look similar. That's. partly because of fashion, partly. because of Instagram face, partly in my. view because of the homogenizing effects. of many of these modern treatments. They. do very genuinely look similar, but I. don't think either of them would be. probably satisfied with the creator. handle. I think they both got potentials. to sort of ascend to mogul status. >> Okay. >> in this new economy. And as you say, yeah, Alex Cooper, she's got this. podcast. It's not a stop for just people.

like, you know, the Kardashians or pop. stars or whatever. Michelle Obama's been. on it. Famously, Kamala Harris and her. sort of rather late-timed White House. run made that her stop, and that was a. big deal. And obviously, there were all. the attendant product. lines and crucially brand deals. Alex. Earl, who's a bit younger, she's 25, Alex Cooper's 31. Came up via get ready. with me videos on TikTok. She then came. second in a series of Dancing with the. Stars. You've talked about how they're.

bringing all these younger people in. She came second in the series and people. really supported her. You know, that. Lady Gaga came out for it. It became. quite a big sort of thing. And she had a podcast called Hot Mess. and she's now got a YouTube show and. she's developing a Netflix show about. her family. So you can see how they make. it all about them selves as it were. That's the way of it. >> Yeah. >> But they are now feuding and it's. completely lit up social media. And I. have to tell you the timeline. This. feels like by the way, when I'm doing. this timeline, you're probably thinking,

"Yeah, yeah, stop now. I get the point. with it." But actually all of it's. important and I'll get to why. >> I know like all of this is about Please. pay attention to the lecture. There will. be a test after this. >> The staging posts are important. >> is very important. >> So in August 2023, they first. collaborate these two. There's a post. reading, "Two blondes walk into a. boardroom." You see the whole mogul. thing. Alex Cooper signed Alex Earl to. Unwell, which is her sort of podcast. network, which she's trying to not just. projects that she fronts, but have all. these other people that she brings out.

And she says, "I feel honored to be at a. place in my career where I can pass. along knowledge and advice for a new. generation of creators to flourish.". >> So Alex Cooper is huge already. She is. expanding out her network from Call Her. Daddy and one of her first signings is. this young Tyro, Alex Earl. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> So that's in 2023. In February 2025, >> Culture moves very quickly these days, isn't it, by the way? >> Yes. >> If we were talking about you know, Cadillac or something like that, we'd go. and then in 1927. Whereas for us, if. something happens in you know, October.

2024, it's like ancient history. >> Well, if you're not always on, everyone. forgets about you and that's part of all. of this. February 2025, Alex Cooper. drops Alex Earl, doesn't explain why and. it's all sort of divined by social media. sleuths, as we call them, who notice. that Alex Earl doesn't go to the On. Wealth Super Bowl party, even though she. is in town. Of course, she's in town. because, as we know, Super Bowl is like, you know, the brand apocalypse. Everyone. is there, wherever they're holding it. Everyone's like, I don't know what's. going on. Why isn't she there? And Alex.

Earl does a TikTok saying, I also don't. know what's going on. The next month, in. 2025, Alex Earl says her podcast is on. hiatus for the foreseeable future. She. doesn't want to get into why, and she. can't get into why, and she's going to. do vlogging from now on. So, there's all. sorts of cuz she says she can't get into. why, there's all sorts of speculation. And Alex Cooper then has to descend from. on high to her own TikTok and say, I see your comments. Alex not being able. to podcast has nothing to do with On. Wealth. I don't know why she can't, what's going on. On Wealth gave her.

everything back. She owns her IP. Couple. months later, Alex Earl is being. interviewed by the Wall Street Journal. Obviously. >> course. >> And she says she wants to revive Hot. Mess, the podcast, and that behind the. scenes it all was a bit of a hot mess. Again, there's it's always this sort of. teasing, it's never the revealing. >> Yeah. >> But, the biggest tease comes in August. last year, where she is on a TikTok and. she says This is Alex Earl. >> This is Alex Earl says, my co-star tells. me that I can start [ __ ] today. I mean, is this my time I've been waiting for to. go? It's like, I have so much. information. We could go.

>> God, this is so um this I mean. >> I know it seems petty, but wait, because. I do have a theory on that. >> Okay, great. >> Okay. And then, in the comment section, everyone's like, well, yeah, tell us. what happened with Alex Cooper. And she. replies, how much time do you have? But. again, she does not deliver. >> all the time. >> Yeah, legend. >> Honestly, I I just asked you the. question. Yeah. Like, let's let's let's. assume I'm interested. >> I'm a person in the modern attention. economy. I have apparently infinite. amount of time for all this. >> That's like when you say, how are you to. someone, they go, oh my god, I mean, how. how much time you got? And you go, I. mean, go on. They go, oh, it doesn't.

matter. >> Yeah, it's very like that. All of this. is like that. And um. Alex Cooper then posts a video saying, how much time you got, cuz we could go. all night. So, she seems to be obliquely. replying to this and she sets her video. to Circus by Britney Spears, which is a. song that Alex Earl had danced to the. month before on Dancing with the Stars. This is all ridiculous. I know it. >> a Dickens novel. >> Yeah. >> You know, when you used to serialize. them chapter by chapter and and he's. making up as he went along. >> yeah, but you know the audience. We've.

talked about this so much on this. podcast before, this kind of sleuthing. that happens that I now think it almost. needs an official title. It's like. open-source intelligence investigations. people trying to picture to you know, what happened in a plane crash, did. Russia down the plane? >> CSI stuff I don't care about. >> Yeah, exactly. Okay, thank God, finally. now we're in the present day, April. 2026. >> Okay. >> A TikToker, another TikToker. Remember, a whole constellation of people feed off. these accounts and they make money. themselves via making content about that.

content. >> it's like brake pad manufacturers who. moved to Akron because that's where the. cars are being made. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> It is, there's a whole community out. there. Um a TikTok called The Bravo Moms posted. a video saying, "Alex Cooper is so awful. and I wish more people would stop making. Call Her Daddy their first stop after. something happens in their lives cuz. she's profiting off of women's. heartaches and failures." Alex Earl. reposts that video. >> Alex, oh my god. >> Richard. So, Alex Cooper now feels she. has to respond. She says, "I don't need. to address this stuff because it feels. like a waste of time. Challenge. And.

honestly, it's embarrassing to. participate in this, but I'm seeing the. videos, I'm getting tagged, I'm seeing. the DMs. It just feels long overdue. Alex Earl, hey girl, the. passive-aggressive reposting and likes. and commenting on things, I got to call. you out here. You're going to need to. get specific and say what you've got to. say about me. There's no NDA, no one is. stopping you. Stop hiding behind other. people and just say it yourself." And. she says that maybe you're using it to. distract from stuff you've got going on. Unless the fake narrative you're. creating happens to be way more. interesting than the truth, I've nothing. to hide when it comes to you and me. So,

unless you have something to say, I'm. out. This is over. Alex Earl replies. >> like this. >> Okay, on it. She doesn't post a whole thing about it. What she does post is a video of her. waking up at Coachella and being shown. this post by her friends. And if you're. thinking about that, as a producer, you're thinking. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Well, hang on a second. She says. something like, you know, kudos to my. friends for realizing I would want this. moment on film. Hmm, maybe. Anyway, she. affects to be waking up at the morning. after Coachella and reading this post.

and says. >> think it's the most exposing moment in. any television program when an actor is. asleep and you know they're about to be. woken up. And it's like, how are they. going to How are you going to do that? I. always I pay such close attention to how. people pretend they just woke up. Huh? Well, yeah. Well? >> Or any of those breakfast shows where. someone has to knock on the door of. someone and then there's another camera. in the house. We know We know. >> Yeah. >> And you have to affect surprise. But. anyway, she affects surprise and says, "Wow, this has made my whole day.". Then there are all these other players. commenting on the whole things. There's. a guy from Barstool Sports called Dave.

Portnoy. >> Oh, yeah. I know him. Yeah, he's the. Yeah. >> And then there's someone called Brianna. Chicken Fry. I mean, the names are. hilarious. What What happened to just. Barry Diller? Um when we were talking about moguls, she's called Brianna LaPaglia, I think. Um anyway, Brianna um Chicken Fry says, "I wasn't a fan of Alex Cooper before I. knew the wrath of [ __ ] Alex Cooper. and what she does to people and how she. treats people.". >> She's lost Brianna Chicken Fry? >> Yeah, she's lost she's chicken She's. lost chicken fry. I'm friends with Alex. Earl. Alex Earl told me everything that. transpired between those two 2 years ago.

at the Super Bowl. Didn't happen but at. the Super Bowl, but that's when she told. me everything. But she won't say anything more because. it's not her story to tell. >> Jesus. >> Now, at time of recording, Monday. morning, the very latest was that Alex. Earl had posted a video of her pole. dancing and said, "Sorry, been filming. this week." Soundtrack, "You Don't Own. Me.". End timeline for now, Richard. >> Okay. Okay. >> The reason we had to go all through that. because you'll have got the sense from. it that following all this stuff is. genuinely a full-time job.

>> Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now I know what. you do. I can't believe you managed to. fit in Paris this week. >> I know. I know. Um sorry, this but this. what we're really talking about is a. story about how the attention economy. works and being always on, you're. keeping attention and then you're. keeping the eyeballs and effectively you. are still selling them those products. and the brand collaboration, all of. that. That is a huge part of it. We have. always had obviously scandals and feuds. We always have had. But the what's.

changing is the entire sort of structure. and dynamic and the texture of those. stories. They're driven by the platforms. now and their characteristics. What we. know about social media platforms is. that people stay on them longer when. they're angry. And that is one of the. absolute fundamental things we know. about that business model. And so drama. and conflict is absolutely essential to. all of it. But if you look at those. stories and you look at the people. coming in Someone's not just commenting. on the story. That as we said, it's like building a hotel in the. nearest theme park. You're hoping to.

cream off some of the money. So when. Briana Chicken Fry, a person who I can't. believe I'm saying her name, but when. Briana Chicken Fry says things like. that, she's This is all directing. traffic to her and it helps her with her. brand collaborations and her with her. deals. All of the subsidiaries are. making money off it, too. So that old. adage, you know, there's no such thing. as bad publicity, this is all content. This is what their business is. This is. the best content because it is making. people angry or exercised or whatever,

which as we know is what keeps them on. the platform. That is a feature and not. a bug. The platform is creating this. kind of story in the first place. Look. at how it came out. It came out by users. of the platform looking at events that. are staged for the platform, a Super. Bowl party where you're going to post. all the pictures and think, "Hang on, why is she not there? Why didn't she. like this post?" All of this, everything. about it is happening because of the way. the platforms work and drama and. conflict is the oil running through both. these women's businesses. And I have to.

say that really does keep people. engaged. >> And do you think there's is it entirely. manufactured or was there a minor. disagreement in the first place that's. been blown up? I mean in in in terms of. the reality of the thing cuz it it. sounds like to me a minor contractual. dispute which which which would have. been dealt with in the olden days by one. meeting and you know a little payoff. But now they've both monetized it for a. good couple of years. >> Yes, but it is sort of their whole. business. Their business is them. Their. business is collaborating with brands or.

doing deals with brands or having their. own product lines. And all of that means. that they're competing for the same. things and in many ways perhaps in lots. of ways they look the same or they bring. similar audiences or whatever it is. >> They've got the same name. >> Yeah, as I've said I do think that the. platforms have completely changed the. dynamics and the way these stories are. uncovered and also everyone's interest. in sort of keeping them going. As I say. that drama and that conflict is what. runs the machine. >> fascinating cuz it's sort of you if you. think about the the media we grew up.

with and the tabloids and what they. would do and you know okay and hello and. the feuds that would be. continued. Those things would go on for. years and the only people making the. money were News International. >> I agree. >> Whereas now it's going on for years and. the people making the money are actually. the people having a row with each other. So in some ways it's progress. >> Well they own their own you know they. own themselves and they own their own. businesses. >> It's the thing I think most about this. entire generation is I immensely feel so. tired cuz I think about how hard I. worked but at least I could go home at.

the end of the day. But they're they're. just that idea of. always on is is that's not just for an. audience it's also for that person as. well. I was looking you know I was. reading a lot about Alex Cooper who's. amazing what she's done and what she's. created. And you know her her background. her educational background was she. studied film and TV. So this is like. what someone in my generation or the. generation after me would have done if. they wanted to be in the media. She then. gets a job in advertising, which again. is the thing that would have happened in. my generation or the generation after.

But now there is a route through which. didn't exist till 10 years ago where. suddenly she's worth $200 million. because she goes off, she can represent. herself, she is herself, she can do. exactly what she wants, she can sign. what she wants with who she wants, and. there's a huge amount of money out. there. And you know, for. >> She's potentially worth much more if. these. people that she kind of brings into her. production company, into her empire, are. seen as a kind of credible umbrella. group of companies that she that she's. in charge of, then she's properly a.

mogul. And then she's maybe she's part of this. sales gold rush that we've seen. >> But as you say, the people she's. bringing in are people in her image, but. by which I don't mean they look like. her, I mean they are doing the same. thing, which is they're putting. themselves out there, they're making. content about themselves, which. hopefully is relatable to a fairly big. audience and an audience that's got. money. And when I think about the, you. know, the the the collapse of the. industry I grew up in and and the people. who are out of work, there's more money. than ever in content, it's just that. anyone who was over 40 at the time all.

this started happening is completely. alien. Uh if you are starting out in the. industry now, it's it's it is a absolute. insane gold rush, right? >> I think so. And. >> But but the rules, you know, when we're. talking about this, it sounds so alien, it sounds so absurd, and yet it is it is. the content that huge amounts of people. are enjoying and huge amounts of people. are spending an hour or two a day on. that they would have previously spent. watching a ITV drama. >> I agree with that, but I also agree with.

it at a sort of mogul level because I've. seen a lot of people saying, "Oh, you. know, these young female founders, how. typical, they've sort of descended into. amateurish bitching, really." And that's. very much part of their economy, you. know, you can't imagine the old media. moguls behaving like this. Huh? Okay. What? Oh my god, yes you can. Uh Let's. talk about the first Trump presidency. I. don't know what his routine is now. His. get ready with routine is now. But let. me tell you, in that first presidency, he would get into bed 6:30 with a big.

cheeseburger and a vat of diet coke with. all the TVs set to, as he put it in an. actual quote, "channels talking about. me.". Such a such a get ready with me routine. And then he would chat on the phone to a. carousel of billionaires. or many of the media. all of whom had been given cleared. caller status to the White House so they. could get straight through. And they. would [ __ ] all night long. There was. one time when Murdoch was on the phone. to him and he just had to explain to. Silicon Valley billionaires didn't need. Trump's help. They were sort of run the. show under the last administration. And.

Trump just didn't understand it at all. And as soon as Murdoch puts down the. phone, he just rings someone else and. goes, "What a [ __ ] idiot." You know, they are all bitching about each other. The thing is, they just do it in. private. >> Murdoch and the Maxwell, I mean it's all. like the balls, and not just in it. private cuz they there's lots and lots. of it in public. It's just they are men. and so it's seen as somehow. machinations. >> It's It is not female behavior. This. money and gossip is all of it for them. >> In men it's seen as 3D chess. >> Yeah. >> They wow, it's amazing what they're. doing, the way they're sort of moving. their pieces around. But it is I mean of.

course it was. >> I completely agree with you. It is not. It is This is not female behavior at. all. >> It is not female ego or male ego. It is. ego. >> Yeah. Yeah, it's money and gossip and. they all main line it and love it. I. think actually even showbiz is less. [ __ ] than being a mogul. I. >> Well, look at the Epstein files. It's. taught us many, many things, but one of. them is there's a whole series of very, very high-profile men who are spending a. lot of their time just bitching about. each other and trying to get into each. other's parties. >> Yes. This is how these people, the new.

mo you know, this is how someone would. say Alex Cooper's probably further. ascended to mogul than Alex Earl is. But. this is how they dominate the attention. economy via this sort of behavior. Murdoch had Fox News and that is a way. of getting eyeballs. They have this. and Alex Cooper has Alex Cooper and it. remains to be seen whether the people. she brings into her stable are as good. as she is. And Alex Earl has Alex Earl. and they're doing very, very, very well. off it, thank you. Suppose my question. is can you become genuinely powerful.

like this in the way that the people we. were talking about, those billionaires, were genuinely powerful? >> I mean, I think so. I think you know, given that Trump can become president. and a large part of that was through. what at the time was seen as new media, which is reality TV, now we would think. of as old media. There there's there's. definitely a world in which a Joe Rogan. or an Alex Cooper has a very, very big. political career. >> I I completely agree with that and I. think Joe Rogan's sort of doing it now. and all the beef happens, all his beef. hap- Rogan's beef happens on air and he.

talks about it and it's content. As I. say, everything is content and your life. is content. >> if you if you have spent many, many. years owning your own narrative, not. necessarily controlling it because. people come in and out of it, but owning. your own narrative, you're sort of. exposure proof. You know, that we we. said the old media who will sort of. bring you on and ask you questions. about, you know, labor reforms. You. think it's this. there's a generation who have never. heard people being questioned in that. way and are not interested in it. >> And the nature of that sort that owning.

your own narrative is being sort of. post-shame. It You just get up tomorrow. and you live stream all over again. And. it's interesting someone we I noticed, I. got I was reading something this. morning, that Taylor Frankie Paul who we. were talking about from season 1 of. Wives and the canceled season of The. Bachelorette. has completely come out and said, "I'm. going to show you all of my comeback. I'm going to There is no sense that you. just be like, oh my god, I've been. driven off social media, delete your. account." Delete your account. Like, who. deletes their account nowadays? Nobody.

deletes their account. That already. feels like something from a decade ago. You just This is great. It's all. engagement and you just turn it into. something else. And if you are always on. as all the these people we've been. talking about are, it doesn't really. matter. It just ends up to being. something that is content that draws. more eyeballs and that's all you need. because you can sell them products. It's. just money. And I think that's something quite odd. and as I say, it is entirely dictated by. the platforms and it's changed the. nature of what we even consider to be.

anything detrimental, you know, a a feud. in the old days. I mean, Bette Davis and. Joan Crawford didn't want their feuds. necessarily in the newspapers. Didn't. mind if they'd said something really. brilliant and [ __ ] but one thing, they didn't you know, you don't want the. ongoing background to your whole life to. be people talking about this. except unless you do. And I think that's. what's changed. Um that everything is. driven by these platforms and everything. is plowed back into them and then even. more dividends are paid out by them. >> Yeah, and and and it's you know, the one.

thing that's at the heart of this as. well, which is why it's so often is. overlooked is is these these are not. people with a particular job. So these. are not actors or sports people who. actually go, you know what? I can I'm. going to go and make some money and do. my job now. This this is A, their job 24. hours a day and B, the only thing that. makes them money. >> mean, creator is a job. >> Yeah, but it's it's exactly the same as. if you're Rupert Murdoch. Yeah, I mean, it's the same thing. It's you know, you're using your force of personality. and your opinions to get one over on. other people and to move the chess.

pieces around. I mean, it's the it's the. same gig, right? And so it never sits. right with me because I didn't grow up. with it, but if you're born into a. generation where you absolutely natively. understand Tik Tok and all of these. things, then. what else would you do? Because you can. make $200 million in 10 years if your. head is screwed on. You know, that's the. thing that you can do. That's what. Murdoch would be doing. >> if he was 20. I mean, that's Because the. thought of a live stream. >> He doesn't have an incredible gossip. He. He is a messy [ __ ]. >> Oh my god, the messy [ __ ].

>> the single messy. >> of years ago he was engaged twice in one. year and he's like 92. I mean, please. >> If you imagine. >> Taylor Frankie Paul could never. >> Yeah, if you imagine Rupert Murdoch was. a 23-year-old woman and then. >> This is going to give me bad dreams. >> And then but then show the series of. things that happened to him, the. relationships he was in and then got out. of them and what he did and how he got. out of them, the things he bought and. the things he sold and how he was to you. would just think this is the this is the. messiest [ __ ] you ever. >> I'd give up my job just so I can follow. it. >> But no, he's a he's a. >> I'd do my degree in that. >> Yeah. Imagine Rupert Murdoch as a as a.

23-year-old influencer. >> I will be all day. >> Anyway, I can exclusive reveal cuz. people wonder which side I'm on in this. I am hashtag team Alex. >> I'm just here for the drama. >> But it also reminds me absolutely of. boxers. >> Yes. >> And boxers will do this thing of saying, "Oh my god, I'm going to knock you out. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to. kill your family." All this stuff. And. then afterwards they're going, "You. know, what a fighter. He's a great. fighter." But the whole, you know, Tyson. Fury versus Anthony Joshua. I mean, they. have strung that out for such an.

incredibly long time. I mean, insanely. long time. >> enemies. Yeah, you do. You never don't. >> It's literally that's all you do. And. now they're going to fight each other. and it's way, way too late, but. everyone's still going to watch it. They're going to make hundreds of. millions. But again, they're men. So. it's you know, it's uh uh. >> So are we in the game? >> Yeah, it it but it isn't it? Boxing was. boxing sort of understood social media. hype before pretty much anything. Boxing. and porn, they're always ahead of the. game. Marina, this week new movie opens. It's. called Michael. It's about Michael.

Not Bardo, but Jackson. >> Jackson. The listeners to the podcast. have heard us talking about this one. before, but it's imminent and it's going. to be as you say released this week. It's made by Lionsgate. It is tracking. to open enormously. I think I said that. in the my sort of preview of the year. I. thought it would do really well. It's. maybe it will get to 75 million in the. US and 200 million globally. Interestingly more globally, which is. always interesting with with kind of. things cuz he's got a big fan base. around the world. But that if it if they. did get I I can't remember what Bohemian.

Rhapsody got. >> Bohemian Rhapsody's opened to $51. million, which is which was. huge. The biggest ever biopic or music. biopic was Straight Outta Compton, the. NWA one, which was $60 million. I think. I think it's going to beat both of. those. So I think it's about $50 million. dollar budget as well, Bohemian. Rhapsody. And this is the same guy, right? Same producer. >> They spent just over 150 million on. this, but it's the budget has since. increased to 170 because a number of. reshoots were required, which we'll get. to him. Bohemian Rhapsody, don't forget.

that was a very troubled production. All. sorts of things happened there. They had. Sacha Baron Cohen as the lead and he. left and then. Bryan Singer had to be removed from the. motion picture in light of various He. was the director. >> I love Bohemian Rhapsody. >> I know you do. >> movie. I know some And also I. My view of that film is just that if if. you see that film as the John Deacon. story, it's the greatest film ever made. >> Okay. >> Cuz he's just like this. guy who plays the drums and he just. goes, "Oh my god, what's happening now?". And it's if if you see it through.

through the eyes of John Deacon, it's it. will win every award going. >> a good film. >> I think it's a great film. I really. enjoyed Yeah, I really really Yeah, do. you not? >> No. >> I like it when, you know, they go. Jack walks in and Rachel says, "Hit the. road, Jack." And then turns to his. piano. Yes, please. >> Okay. Let's return to Michael, which I. think is a film we can both agree is. more has a more complicated. >> Yes. >> story to it. Okay. But it's got very. It's got a. Antoine Antoine Fuqua who directed.

Training Day. He's the director. Written by John Logan who did Gladiator, did. The Aviator. They've got good people in it. But good. and good people in it. Colman Domingo. plays Joe Jackson, Michael's father, under the great entertainment monsters. Miles Teller, Nia Long. And. the estate of Michael Jackson is amongst. the producers, which is quite important. What they kept the sort of most. important point of the film, I guess, under wraps for a long time with these.

teaser trailers, which which is the performance of Jaafar. Jackson. Can you believe he's called. Jaafar? The. the nephew, I think he's Jermaine's son, who is playing Michael. So, by way of background, I mean, we. know why we're talking about this film. because obviously he Michael Jackson was. beset by child abuse allegations. He was. cleared of some. Um there are ongoing cases against the. estate. But that estate has proved. incredibly resistant to those. allegations. Um he's the 27th biggest.

artist on Spotify. He's There's a Cirque. du Soleil show all about, you know, based on the music. Um Thriller Live was. very very successful and it gave way to. MJ the Musical, which. >> that was also huge. >> which is massive across many countries. And there's a new one opening called in. the West End quite soon, actually, called Can You Feel It? >> So, is that the third Michael Jackson. musical? >> Yeah, in not very many years. >> That's amazing. >> And anyway, the director Antoine Fuqua. said, "We're going to show the good, the. bad, and the ugly." Um and Graham King,

the producer, said, "We're going to. humanize but not sanitize." And Colman. Domingo um said, "You know, I think it's. actually just trying to give a great. examination of an artist, what made the. artist who he is, what makes him. complicated for you to leave with your. own answers.". Okay. Right. Um. can I just say I think something really. interesting is going on with Colman. Domingo because he has not said anything. about this film. I saw the a Hot Ones he. did and he literally mentioned the date. of the film. That's it. Um he did he hosted SNL in the uh in the. US a couple of weeks ago and just did.

not mention the film. You're booked. because you're promoting the film. So, something I don't know whether he. thought, "I'm just going to play one of. the great entertainment monsters," as. I've just said, and then thought, "Hang. on a second, I didn't quite realize what. I was getting into here." Because it's. become it's very very controversial. And it's interesting what has happened. with this script because a version of. the script leaked and it's been all over. the place. Not a stolen document, but a. leaked document, but they have. summarized it, which was that the. original film as everyone signed on to.

started with the raid on Neverland when. Michael Jackson is photographed and is. forced to. have his genital area photographed. because Jordie Chandler, who is this kid. who made these allegations against him, had been made to do a drawing of. distinguishing marks. And they opened with that scene, which. is quite. >> Yeah. >> suddenly out there. >> Well, but but but also, by the way, if. you're a common Domingo or a John Logan, you're like, "Oh, okay. This is we're. we're we're going to do this seriously.

and take it seriously." You know, that I. would believe suddenly, "Oh, this isn't. just going to be some sort of. whitewash.". >> that original script says that the. drawing and the photograph don't match. They haven't gone with that. Now, the. film that you're going to see um it has. it's something different because on. completely unfathomable, as I say, the. estate are producer on this and the. estate are absolutely kind of rapacious. in how much money they want to make and. how much control they have. And but they were responsible for a sort. of unbelievable mistake where they. didn't realize that the settlement with.

Jordie Chandler all those years ago said. that he could never be depicted in a. film or whatever. And I I think that act. three of this film so the final third. >> no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. >> was all about this. Was all about the. allegations. So, they had to pay for the. person the estate had to fork out the 15. million or whatever it cost for the. reshoots. Um the movie that you are. going to see if you are going to see it. now covers Michael Jackson's rise from. being in the Jackson 5 band member, family member of with all that dreadful. family, um to solo artist and it.

climaxes with the Bad tour in 1988. So, all I would say is to hell of a sequel. if they do one. >> It was going to end with Bad either way. >> Yeah. >> The but they they they they're talking. already about this becoming um the. Michael Jackson universe and you know. they will do future films for. other albums and other eras which you. know. sort of makes sense. But yeah, very very. different to to the original project as. pitched. >> Yeah. And it's interesting which family. members are involved. Obviously Jermaine.

is involved and Jaafar is in it. >> Jaafar's very involved. >> Yeah, Jaafar's very involved. But Janet. Jackson won't speak about it and is. it's not clear what's happened there but. that I don't know whether she's not in. it at all. She's not She's not depicted. Paris, one of his three children, you. remember there's Prince, Paris and B now. called Bigi but formerly Blanket. You. know him as the crowd surfing baby. And she said it was sugar coated and she. doesn't she's not into it. Yeah, she.

didn't turn up to. premier or screening whatever they've. just had of it. But the other two children did. So it's. all sorts of different kind of views on. it. But we have to say that there is. still more than one case. against the estate accusing Jackson of. child abuse. I mean as I've said before. many times. I believe. you know, he was a predatory pedophile. It's Just look at the evidence. We know. We know how these sort of things work. It's always boys. They're all about the. same age. This is If he was really What.

Where are all the girls? Why was there. not a sort of multi opportunity? Everyone can share a bedroom with this. man with an alarmed bedroom. But Wade Robson and James Safechuck who. were the two subjects of Leaving. Neverland, that documentary which is brilliant. documentary on HBO, their case is still. and it's it's constantly being given. leave to proceed and they're still. involved with all the discovery. You. know how long the American legal system. um. takes. >> There's something in that. the loss of shame in this. as well which is everyone just seems.

able to go look, we're going to make a. huge amount of money out of this. You. know, let's just keep pushing it and. pushing it and pushing it. And it does, if you're Janet Jackson or various other. members of the family, you must just. just think that I loved my brother, but. I recognize that that, you know, there are things that happened in his. life that I'm not comfortable with. And. so so, you know, I don't want to be part. of this billion-dollar industry. But, you know, >> And I'm not getting any money off it in. her case. >> Yeah. >> Um you know, I'm I'm fine with. separating the artist from the art. I. don't think people should never listen. to Michael Jackson whatever I even.

though other people do have a different. view on that sort of thing. But, when a. sort of hagiography just tips over into. complete image laundering as we might. say has happened here. Um. I guess what what they've done is leave. such a sort of they've left it open to. say, "Oh, we'll cover all that in a. sequel." We'll cover, you know, it would. be quite difficult to be the writer of. that sequel, I must say. Um. But, if they don't do that, um they will. do a sequel cuz it's obviously going to. do so well. But, if it continues to stay. tipping into really quite toxic image.

laundering, then. I think when there are victims and. alleged victims still out there and. there are cases still rumbling through, I find that pretty difficult. And it is. a very complicated thing this because. they haven't made. the movie they said they were going to. make. Um they're now no longer answer. questions on that first script because. they're saying, "Oh, it's a you know, this isn't nothing that's been wasn't. produced. This is just we're just. talking about an earlier draft of. something." Um. And I think it's interesting just how.

much as as you say that the sort of. post-change thing that how many people. will turn up to see it. Um and as I say, there's nothing wrong with going to see. a movie about Michael Jackson if it if. it were. an honest thing. But, they have. certainly let set up a hell of a sequel. I would say that. >> Now, a question for you, but it's it's. also a question for people listening as. well. Would you would you go and see it? >> Yeah, I will see it because it's a it's. a I've seen lots of things. It's a big. newsy thing and I want to see exactly.

how they've done it. I don't think I can. talk properly about it unless I have. seen it, and I will want to probably. talk some more about it as time goes on. So, yes, I will see it. And anyway, I. would listen to Michael Jackson music, and I know that some people find that. appalling. And but yes, I I I I don't. have a sort of problem with that, but I. think you have to be realistic about. what you're doing. >> Can we, as a lovely palate cleanser, talk about Binky Felstead? >> It involves cake. Uh yes, this is Binky. Felstead. This is the she's a as I said. a sort of second-tier original Made in.

Chelsea star. >> It's nice name in a P. G. Wodehouse. novel. >> Yes. I mean, honestly. Um she's now an. influencer, and um she's in a sort of. living after Made in Chelsea spin-off. If you look at her social media, she's. one of those many people who is always. on a free holiday, the furniture in her. house is paid for. Everything it's all the life is got. She's got three small children, and it's. all kind of paid-for content. Um anyway, she asked for a cake for one of her. children's birthdays from a a baker.

called Anges de Sucre. Actually, one of. our next-door neighbors once had a baker. a cake from um this place um paid for. Um and it was absolutely delicious cuz I. had a piece. Um anyway, >> I'm not Are you. Are you being paid for this at all? >> No, no. >> Well, cuz you're an idiot, cuz you could. have You could have got a lot of some. more stuff out of this. >> that, yeah. It was beautiful, this. thing, and it tasted delicious. Anyway, um but they're a small business, um and. she um Binky Felstead's team will. discuss what we think that actually. involves.

Um. got in touch and said, "Could could you. have a cake um in exchange for. exposure?" Now, the bit that was it made. a mistake going to this particular. baker. She's called Reshmi Bennett, and. she's been quite vocal in the past about. calling out this sort of thing. And she. completely called it out, posted some of. the screenshots of sort of. you know, the begging letter for the. cake. She made a satirical GoFundMe page. saying, "Can we all club together so. that this person off Made in Chelsea can. get a cake for her son's birthday. The problem with this is that there's a.

reason for this is that this has. happened so many times to this baker. before. Um she was once asked to make. 250 macarons and she boxed them and she. had to individually box them. She was. told that, you know, she'd get photos. No photos happened. Completely ghosted. So you provide the stuff for free and. then sometimes people just don't fulfill. their half of the bargain. She's been. sort of blackmailed by a blogger who. asked for free stuff and then when she. didn't give it, the person came outside, bought one macaron and said, "Oh, it's. disgusting. Avoid this shop." So um her. point of it about it all, um Rushka.

Bennett, is that um the economics of. this very rarely work and the evidence. of sales just isn't really there that. okay, because your your cake has been. featured in the celebrity's birthday. party thing, this is going to be the. floodgates of business are about to open. and all this money's going to flow. towards you. She sort of says, "I do it. as a warning to others.". >> Yeah, and also this is Binky Felstead, it's not Tom Cruise. >> No, it's not who who famously gives many. people cakes. >> Yeah. >> I assume he pays for. Um anyway, she wrote she wrote back to. Binky's rep and she said the optics are.

terrible. A rich Made in Chelsea star. gets a cake for free from a small. family-run bake business. What would. have made an incredible piece of press. was if Binky had paid full price for a. cake and I posted about how an. influencer actually paid for that cake. Now the rep has had to do clean up on. it. By the way, that this is really. kicked off and this is because as we. keep saying, influencers are becoming. like the most hated job even more than. journalists and estate agents and maybe. even serial killers. Um and the rep. says, you know, this happens all the. time. This is a normal thing to do, but.

the perception is that they ask for. absolutely everything at the. influencers. And there are also a. growing number of people who will just. say they're an influencer, you know, sort of. I have uh 700 followers, please can you. give me a spa weekend? I mean, I'm just. It's and actually fielding the sheer. volume of requests. I've talked to quite. a lot of people about this and they say. sometimes they say. fielding requests is a job in itself cuz. you get so many and they come into your. places of work and say I want to film.

now. dealing with all of this I mean and. you've seen lots of people say in. restaurants we're going to ban people. with cameras because they you know. standing there taking up all the space. in the restaurant filming and it's just. becoming ridiculous. >> Even in gyms constantly filming which is. mustn't film in gyms but yeah it's it's. it's sort of non-stop. >> It's all the time. >> Because influencers is one of those. self-defined jobs. >> Yes. >> Where you can say I'm an influencer you. get okay let's talk let's talk through. how and why you're an influencer take. take me through the profit and loss in. your last year of who you've influenced.

and and how. >> I agree are they influencing which is. what this baker is sort of saying now it. was quite interesting in terms of this. whole round it's really blown up and. she's done other things before and she. does give the appearance of having you. know everything else everything paid for. but the numbers were quite interesting. so you know people are saying oh you'd. expect I would actually even expect. something to be given to me and then I. would ask for to be paid for the post. 2,000 5,000 pounds. And. you know the answer is we're paying you.

with exposure. which again these businesses don't. really feel they're getting. You are supposed to say when any of this. has happened on the bottom of the post. I'm gifted or sponsored. ad. It's so interesting they so rarely. do. and yet it's happening all the time. And. it's very very difficult to police I. would have said I mean. what is the policing it's like a phone. ringing up on the meta campus somewhere. I mean no nobody is policing and saying.

why didn't you put gifted on your post. You and I have said about a million. times celebrities just pay for your own. stuff it is so much easier just pay. don't you don't have to cameras in you. can just just pay for your own things. having said that this is her entire job. and actually it's bizarre she lives in a. almost like an ancient system of barter. When you think that that the house is. fully furnished by a company that I. won't bother naming, the holidays are. paid for all the things that you might. spend money on are sort of being given. to you and you're given exposure. But.

that's it, you're not actually being. paid for a lot of this, but it's buying. you things in your life. And I, you know, I talk about that. illusion of a team. I often think that I. think she she you almost always have a. publicist if you're someone with her. level of followers. >> But that publicist would work for lots. of different people. Would it be your. own personal publicist? I get it. >> would work for many different people and. all people like you. >> So it's like So it's like saying that my. news agent, but I'm very aware that my. news agent also sells newspapers to. other people. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And it's mainly I sometimes think when.

they're talking about a team it's sort. of just you, chat GPT, and a shared. publicist. But when I explain that thing. about, you know, every single thing in. the life being paid for, the clothes, the holidays, the things in the house, um probably quite a lot of the food, you. see the precariousness of it. This is. really bad, this row, for her because. she's now less desirable as a person cuz. people think she's a grifter and she. gets everything paid for. She just went. really. I heard she was on a holiday last week. when this all happened. So she will. return to understanding that her stock.

has gone right down. And that is the. precariousness of all of these things. Again, we're talking about the. platforms, but it's true. There's. another Made in Chelsea star, original. cast, a guy called Ollie Locke, who's in. some big drama at the moment that he. didn't pay the rent on his house, him. and his husband, and that's I don't. know. I'm not even going to get into the. details of that one. What I will say is. he tried to explain that his, you know, it's hard to run your influencer income. and money come, you know, I've. mismanaged things, etc. But he did it by. giving a tearful interview saying I'm. having a sort of breakdown. And I just.

thought, don't do that. I'm so sorry. You look a mess now and people don't. want to give free things to messes and. this is your whole business. I'm so. sorry to say, but this is the. precariousness of the life that if it. requires you to seem. happy and breezy and aspirational. And. if you seem like a grafter, then less. than fewer people are going to want to. give you things. >> Well, we like it when people earn their. living, I think. >> Well, yeah. But and the language now. being used to. describe the people is like, "Oh, you're. in a house you didn't pay for. You get.

free stuff. These people don't work. while you do." This is exactly the same. accusations that they would level. against what they perceive to be fake. asylum seekers. >> Like in the public mind. >> And by the way, lots of them are living abroad and. paying no tax. So, I mean So, what is it that you think you're. contributing to anybody? Or anything? And also, this is not all. influencers. We know that and there are. and it's certainly not all that you. know, lots and lots of people will tell. you things are brilliant on social media.

and for good reasons. But there is a a. sub class of people and it's nice to see. them get caught out every now and again. Do you know what? Here's the basic rule. of thumb, pay for your child's birthday. cake. >> It's so basic. >> And if you find someone in life who. cannot afford to pay for their child's. birthday cake, why don't you pay for one. of theirs as well? That's what you. should be doing. That's what you should. be doing with your life and with your. money is looking after other people, not. trying to just sort of get more and more. things and putting your arms around. things and bringing cakes into your.

house. >> Well, where she been at that baker? Not. that long ago, she created a really. clever cake, a watermelon cake, and she. gave um a percentage of all the sales to. Save the Children's Gaza appeal. And an. influencer just got in touch and said, "Can I have one for my birthday for. free, please?" Like. Okay, this cake particularly, no. But again, the whole there is the. backlash is definitely real and you see. people it's such a huge the takedown. industry is becoming worth a lot of.

money and the perception that people are. against the backdrop of a cost of crisis. are, you know, getting free luxuries, are doing are not working, are getting. everything given to them when you don't. have to is is extraordinary. And the. mapping onto it of areas of. the immigration debate or anything else. is is actually slightly wild. But I. would definitely say that it is a very. precarious situation because once you. don't seem desirable or you've been. involved in some sort of backlash like.

this, then very many fewer people want. to give you anything. >> Yeah, and then. >> you're going to have to steal a cake. >> But then. Yeah. >> That's going to be your only option left. because you're not going to be able to. afford one. >> And do a tearful interview about it. >> Yeah, three tears. I say if there's a if there's a lesson. from today's show, it's it's it's it's. about the death of shame. Isn't it? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Should we have have a moral at the end. of every episode? >> god, we should do that. Um any. recommendations? >> Well, mine is a a great show. It's um. but when we were in Paris, we had one TV.

channel that we could watch in English. and it was BBC One. Great. My daughter who is 11 ended up therefore. watching when when we got back from the. day, you know, a few lots of shows that. she wouldn't normally see cuz although. she watches iPlayer, she doesn't see the. schedule. And she's like, "I love the show. Countryfile." I was like, "Sorry, what?". She said, "It's really good. It's really. interesting." I was like, "Yeah, Countryfile." By the way, it's one of. the biggest shows on TV, which is. something that a lot of people don't. realize. If you had told them that, they.

wouldn't necessarily realize. But it's. absolutely enormous. And yeah, I would. like to recommend the BBC One scheduled. television show Countryfile. >> You know, they are they not a. fashionable, but they're just so they're. still beautifully made and still get. numbers that if you put them on social. media would be like beyond enormous. You. know, if you had the sort of numbers. that Countryfile gets week in, week out, the size of cake you could get for free. is beyond enormous. >> larger than our country. It would be. enormous. >> Um I am going to recommend Well,

actually, I'm I'll recommend because I. mentioned it at the start the new season. of um at the Parisian Agency. I. recommended it before, but this new. season is back and it's just. the houses are unbelievable, but it's. also it's it's just about that quite. extraordinary family, I'll have to say, and the things that happen to them. And. you know, even if you don't really love. property shows, that that's that's the. one. And it feels slightly realer than a. lot of those things. as well. So, I love. L'Agence Parisienne. >> Right, that about finishes us for today. We will be back on Thursday with the.

questions and answers episode. >> Can I just Can I just say before that. cuz on last week's question and answer. thing we I was talking about getting. Bill Paxton and Bill Pullman mixed up. and I said to people, are there any. actors you get mixed up? The response to. that has been so insane. and we'll we'll go through. >> bookshelves. >> It is bigger than it's officially. bigger than bookshelves. So, we'll go through some of the. celebrities and actors who people always. thought was the other person. on Thursday. >> for that. And then on Friday for our. members we have the final part of our.

Spice Girls epic. I will miss that when. it's gone. But other than that, we'll see you on. Thursday. >> See you on Thursday.