How Content Creation Is Destroying The Hierarchy of Work

There's some incredible statistics about. how many people self-define as a content. creator these days and we thought it was. worth exploring that and what it means. >> Yes, we're going to be talking about. Charli XCX's new album and how you. follow up an enormous hit like Brat. >> And we are also talking about the film. website Letterboxd, one of my absolute. favorite websites in the entire world, which is unbelievably brilliant, but. it's up for sale and everyone's worried. it might no longer be uh.

quite so brilliant. We'll soon find out, I suppose. >> The Rest Is Entertainment is presented. by Octopus Energy. >> Now, we're going to be talking about an. expression which I hadn't heard till 7. seconds ago, which is someone getting. their flowers. Can you tell me what that. means? >> Well, it means like you've been around a. long time, but people suddenly think, "Hang on a second, you're amazing and. you should be recognized.". >> So, you're finally getting your due. You're. you're getting your flowers. >> and and you're being garlanded. Now, I. would say someone like this is someone. like Jean Smart who plays the lead in. Hacks. She plays Deborah Vance. Okay,

Jean Smart is extraordinary. She did a. huge amount of TV and stage work and. there was a sense that she was sort of. always brilliant, but then this one role. came along, Deborah Vance in Hacks. They. literally just give her the Emmy every. year now. She gets her she gets her. flowers every year. She gets her Emmy. every year. As we always talk about. Octopus's customer service, your your. accounts are run by about 10 or 12. people. You've got a small team. >> And they know who you are. >> Yes, and they are permitted to send. flowers every week to a customer who. might just be going through something, whatever it is. So, they can recognize.

it's not an apology, it's just because. someone was going through something and. they you get your flowers. >> Another example of they seem to do. business in a very interesting and. customer focused way. Imagine if Jean. Smart is an Octopus customer, might get. her flowers twice. >> Yeah, every week. Okay, are we all going to be content. creators? Because Luminate, who are the. entertainment data experts, they have. they do a sort of six-monthly report. They found an unbelievable statistic, which is that 39% of Americans now.

identify as content creators. >> 39%? I'm not sure if that's a. >> in five. identify as active content creators. across digital platforms. And I I think it's interesting, the word. creator in itself is is. you know, when everyone sort of had to. stop talking about global warming and. started calling it climate change. >> Mhm. >> It's the word itself is now. professionalized. Instead of just being. like a YouTuber or an influencer, which. seemed like it was from fake work, it's. now but tens of millions of people now.

identify as paid creators. I I think. that's extraordinary cuz we will get to. the difference between, you know, I just. identifying someone and actually making. money as one. >> Um but that means that there is a sort. of massive middle class in the in the. creator economy, um which I think. Goldman Sachs they projected that next. year it will be worth $480 billion the. creator creator economy. >> And when we talk about creators, these. are not just uh kids playing video. games. These are, you know, dentists who come home at the end of the.

day and do dental tutorials. These are. accountants who come home and talk you. through spreadsheets. Uh there is a huge. amount of uh niche content out there, which is monetizable, which is made by. professionals. But I think that 39% of. everyone being a content creator might. be pushing it a bit. That. self-identifying thing is uh is is doing. a lot of work. But there's this is. incredible gig economy now of people. taking their professional skills, finding a niche audience, and then. finding ways of monetizing the audience. It's a it's it's a real thing.

>> Yeah, media content has become. democratized incredibly fast. This has. happened really, really quickly. But. also the world of work is changing so. rapidly. that as I say, hundreds hundreds of. millions people around the globe will. identify as as content creators. And. that original Goldman report found that. sort of 4% of them made over $100,000 a. year. >> I mean that's still a lot. 4% of a lot. of people. >> a lot It's a lot of people, right? But. so there's a few different areas. So we. should start with business before we get.

into the everyone of it. As I was. listening to something the other day. with the CEO of Unilever, who's called. Yeah. No, no, it's really interesting, right? >> You really You know, you really do have. a hinterland. >> Yeah, no. I Yes, I do. But okay, so Unilever is one of the. world's largest consumer product. companies. They've got masses of brands. They've got about 150 brands and things. like Dove and Vaseline and Hellmann's. and whatever it is. >> They're one of those companies that owns. all the other companies you've heard. >> Yeah. And 4 billion people sort of touch.

one of their products every day. >> Wow. >> effectively because they've got they. operate in 190 countries and it's kind. of everything. >> But they don't have a product called. which is a Unilever. >> No, they don't. >> Which is a lever that does everything. Like a kind of one of those remote. controls that controls everything. A. lever that does everything. If I was. Unilever, that's what I'd be doing. >> They have 100,000 employees. But what's. really interesting is that they've. almost completely replacing ads with. creators. They have scaled from having. 10,000. paid creators to They have 300,000.

paid creators. >> Yeah, and this is By the way, what we. would also call influencers. This is. what we would say. people who are sending you things. That. world has changed utterly. We think of. influencers as people with sort of, you. know, over a. million followers on various things, which is [clears throat] what they now. call a macro influencer. And the world. we're talking about is the world of. micro influencers, which is somewhere. between 10 and 100,000 followers. So you. can have 10,000 followers and be making. money because Unilever they've worked.

out that having a lot of small. influencers. is actually much better bang for their. buck than having two or three massive. influencers. >> Or or just traditional broadcast. advertising. He's He's He's presided. over this complete shift away from it. He says he wants one in every zip code, every post code around the whole world. Uh Um and so instead of that kind of. top-down corporate messaging, it is all. social first and creator disseminated. That's one big company, but it's really. interesting to see that they are already. on 300,000 paid influencers. That's.

insane. >> just one big company, but it's a sort of. a company that's always been at the. forefront of advertising. Always been at. the forefront of branding and marketing. and where we go next and where they. lead, an awful lot of other people will. follow. So, this is not going to get any. smaller in the next few years, this idea. of micro-influencers. >> So, those are the small ones, but then. equally in business, you've got and. people talk about this all the time now, founders can't just be, you know, you. can't just invent your thing. Documenting it and posting about it is. just a huge the social activity is a.

massive part of the job. And you're. expected to sort of document your. thinking publicly. It's not like an optional marketing. strategy anymore. You have to build the. product, then you have to run the. company, but you have to be an always-on. creator. You have to. >> you have to tell your story, which is. >> no search traffic anymore. >> Yeah, and it's a you know, a familiar. thing we've all, you know, that that. idea that, you know, the the story. behind a brand is very important and, you know, the the origins of a brand is. important, but now it's sort of it's. it's sort of.

everything at the beginning, as you say, when you're launching a. product. If you go for an IPO, you can. see now that the, you know, Elon Musk is. the most obvious example, but it can. happens all the way down that the. founders of a company or the chief. executives of a company have to be able. to tell their own story in their own. space before you have an IPO. I mean, you you literally sort of can't do. anything in any sphere now without going. on camera and telling people. >> What it is, without posting. Yeah, I. find it exhausting. >> Yeah, but then, so moving down from.

that, there's a sort of middle class. It's interesting that there are so many. now. journalists who are sort of just like. have become a creator. And uh there's a woman who study who. studying all these people who are just. moving away from kind of traditional. legacy outlets and she said there's not. one creator that who's that's losing. sleep wondering is the Washington Post. or the New York Times taking my audience. because that is not happening but the. reverse is. So, these big big kind of. legacy things people are moving away and. people are moving into these kind of.

individual spaces. >> [gasps]. >> So, the next thing you have to think of is. like is the creator economy is it like a. content industry or is it actually like. an acquirable asset class? Clearly like. Unilever thinks it's almost like an. asset class. It's a you know, an asset. class is something like shares or. whatever or real estate or bonds or what. something that performs. shares similar characteristics and kind. of performs in the same way in in. markets. So, but life has become. lifestyle content. So, all of these. people the supposedly private self.

everybody posts all things like their. pregnancy tests or their child's first. steps or everything. It becomes public. labor all the time. and it started with things like the. mommy bloggers and then suddenly these. people who were just doing something at. home about and then really interestingly. you saw oh my gosh every these people. are now creators they have these huge. businesses but it's now so far fast and. it's everywhere. I mean dating is. completely enmeshed with it. But this idea of creator as a social. identity a lot of it is a form of I.

I you know, you people want to say. they're a creator. Why do you think that. is? >> It's like people have always wanted to. say they're an artist because it's you. know, there's because they are an artist. at heart. That's the point and you know, lots of people in their hearts are. creative and they are creators. and this gives you the opportunity to. self-identify as that. In the same way. that very very rich men and children of. very very rich men have always. self-identified as film producers. But you know, it's it's like a it's it's. it's a thing you can say and do. I think. personally I I think it's.

very good to have a any outlet for. creativity. I also think that it's great. that it's reducing obstacles to. genuinely creative people to make a bit. of money as well. But the idea that 39%. of people self-identify as. uh content creators is plainly absurd. But that's you know But. 49% of people in Britain self-identify. as working class, and we know that's not. true as well. It's so you can't identify. as. what you want, right? There's an awful. lot of right-wing bloggers who are. self-identifying as content creators who. uh. don't let anyone else self-identify. And.

you go, "But hold on, you're saying that. you're a content creator, but you know. you didn't make any money. So you're. self-identifying.". >> I want Yeah, but I think I think that. money doesn't have to be involved for. people to feel that But creation is is. now default behavior. It's you're If you. you feel like if you're not doing it, then you're not participating, and. that's been very And obviously AI is. going to further turbocharge that. because it's much easier to create. things. >> Yeah. >> But there's that So it what felt like a. newish category, what they call a. prosumer, so you're not like just a.

producer, but you're also a consumer. That's now I think it's almost a. cultural norm. It certainly is if 39% of. people are saying it. >> Well, it's it's there's two personality. types, and this ties into it, which is. people who are always on transmit, and. people who are who are who are mainly on. receive. And culturally, we've turned. into a group of people who are always on. transmit. And that's you sort of think, "Well, we need receivers as well for this. economy. We can't We can't all be. transmitting all the time.". >> But if you're a prosumer, then you're. both, and that's what people are because.

they're sort of They produce us stuff. themselves, but they are also The. consumption is part of the. participation. So going back to that. thing of like the most intimate moments. of people's lives are posted. But. actually, people are just online all the. time. And we I've talked about this. before, but you are basically you work. for the platforms. People spend 5 or 6. hours on these platforms. They work for. the algorithm. Every day. That is If you. did 5 to 6 hours of anything else, you. would be doing a what we used to call a.

part-time job, okay? And they have other. jobs. They have other jobs, but I. actually increasingly think that their. real role in the economy is the 5 to 6. hours they're spending online powering. these vast and insane and insanely rich. companies, often for free. >> So, micro-influencing is interesting, I. think. And the reason why it's really, really taken off cuz you would say. someone with 10,000 followers, is that. really of of any use to a brand? Now, the engagement is the absolute key, and. that's what all advertisers and all. marketers look for. So, if you've got.

say people over at 1 million followers, they get an engagement of about 1%. And. by engagement, that could literally just. be replying, or it can be but the most. important engagement, of course, is. buying is, you know, putting some money into the ecosystem. Micro-influencers. have about three times that. They've got. 3.2% engagement. So, they got far fewer. people, but the people who are following. them are far more engaged. And because. it is a more personal thing. If you. follow Cristiano Ronaldo, there's 600. million people following him. And so you. know a lot of those are bots. A lot of. those are not There's There's lots of.

natural wastage there. If you've got a. dentist who has 12,000 people following. them, those people tend to be quite. engaged. They're following for a reason. They've chosen to follow that person. They chose to follow for very niche. advice. If you're a I always say if. you're a dentist, I choose dentist cuz. they're examples of these of people. making a million pound a year. >> become creative. >> become creative. [laughter]. Uh all day, every day, you've got new. patients coming in. And you're saying, "Oh, by the way, you're brushing slightly too hard, or. this is the the new way to brush. And. make sure this is how I would floss, not.

that." And every time, every single uh. patient is saying, "Oh, god, that's. really interesting. That's And this And. they come back and go, 'I really started. flossing differently cuz of what you. said. Thank you.'" It doesn't take more. than a couple of years of that to think, "I mean, everyone I talk to really, really likes this advice that I give. Why don't I just I'll sort of stick it. on a video. I've got a couple of hours. at the end of the day. I could do this.". >> Get a ring light. >> Yeah, I can get a ring light. And so, you show people how to brush, how to. floss. You You show them. stuff that is obvious to you because. it's in your professional wheelhouse,

but might be less obvious to them. And. suddenly everyone's like everyone's like. that one individual person. So, instead. of talking to one person at a time, you. talk to 12,000 people. It doesn't take. long for an Oral-B to go, "Oh, that's. interesting. This person Lots of people. seem to really really like what they do. We will put some money into them." And. by the way, just huge multiples less. than you would have to put into, you. know, someone like Stacey Solomon or. someone someone with huge followings. We'll put some money into them. We'll. see what return we get on our our. investment." And over the last few.

years, they have seen time and time and. time again that they're getting really. really really good return on their. investment. That these people with. smaller followers, but more engaged. followers, are such a huge driver of the. economy and people who people trust. >> But Unilever have 300,000 of these, and. they want to massively scale that. >> What can we do? [laughter]. >> It's. We do. This is. >> That's what you say we do this. >> I'm so sorry. You're involved in content. creation right now. >> Oh, no. I've got [laughter] to. >> I know you're trying to stay away from. it. >> I've fallen into my own snare. >> Yeah, but that is extraordinary that.

there's there are that many and they're. just trying to really really build that. up. >> What's more extraordinary is that it. works. >> Yeah. >> That's the really really interesting. thing. >> It works so much better than the. absolutely multiple millions and. billions that they have effectively. plowed into top-down corporate-led. advertising. >> You see why the business of it works, and you see why this is a viable job for. an awful lot of people. If you're. sitting there and you have a job that. you're aware you can you know things. that other people don't know. Uh and things that people might find. useful in their daily life.

You can just start doing that. You know, don't do the things that everyone else. has done. If you want to become a beauty. blogger, that's. done. There's people who are amazing. that is brilliant that unless you've got. a new angle. But if you're a. professional person who does something. interesting that people don't know. about, you can make money out of that. Brands will give you money. Uh and if. people come back and you get engagement, they will give you more money. and you. will grow more people. You know, it's a. that's a that's an. interesting job to do. >> But everybody now works for the. algorithm. >> That's the problem with it, I think,

that um. is to do this, you are relying on. Instagram or TikTok or whatever platform. you choose, and that can be taken away. from you. almost immediately. So, for example, if. you're on TikTok, two ways of getting. paid as a as a micro influencer. Firstly, you get money directly from the. client, from a Unilever or someone like. that. They will pay you for a post. Uh. or they might put you on a retainer, depends how that works. But secondly, um. the place where you can really make. money is that you get a share of any.

marketplace money coming in. So, TikTok. has a very good shop front, which people. buy things through. You get a share of. that. And that suddenly, you're like, but hold on, I used to go into the. dental surgery every day. Now I'm. getting money every time someone buys a. particular type of toothbrush. Oh, suddenly I'm on 250,000. dollars a year, and I can just sit at. home. However, TikTok tomorrow, in the same way that, you know, Facebook have done with big. publishers, TikTok tomorrow could change. their terms of service. TikTok tomorrow.

could end your business. And that's a. very precarious. place to be. >> But all work is precarious, and that's. what people think now. >> I guess so, but this. >> will think more and more that all work. is precarious, and that why would you. not have a side hustle doing these. things and always. >> Yeah, I suppose so, but if if this is. becoming such business, and the one. thing we know about the TikToks and. Instagrams and Facebooks of this world. is the more money there is to be made, the more they try and rake of it, and. that's probably coming out of your.

pocket. Is. that I would say is is. is it's speaking to your point about. that you're being completely reliant on. the platforms, and you are sort of. working for the platforms as well. >> Everybody works in the content mines. now. Everybody works down in content mines. >> But um, it's a very, very interesting. way of getting cuz the only way it. really works is if you're good. The only way it really works if you is. if you have authority and if people. trust you and believe you. and you promote things to them that work. for them because then they return. So,

it it has a meritocracy to it. I mean, as always, I always think that the. hilarious thing that I bang on all the. time about how, you know, the there's. fewer barriers to entry in the content, you know, these days and how when I. started in TV everyone was middle class. and then you look at look at some of the. big YouTubers and influencers you go, oh, you all went to public school as. well. There's some there's. something, you know, that happens there, but I but I do think it's a, um, 39% of people saying they're content. creators.

and a good number of people genuinely. making a living out of it in a way that. didn't used to happen. You talked about. journalists as well. The other side of. this coin is not just the. >> Because it's become the kind of. aspirational identity. >> Yeah. But, the idea now that bands and. journalists and uh, on that side of. things have their own patrons and can. get paid individually by people. Again, it's having that niche audience but who. really trust you and like you and. believe in you. And if you're a content. creator, I always think that that, uh, podcast Finn versus History which is. Finn Taylor and Horatio. Gould.

Someone was telling me the other day how. much money they each make a year and. it's a huge amount of money entirely off. their own back, entirely off people, you. know, paying them directly, entirely off. having a group of people who love what. it is that you do and being paid. directly. And that, by the way, is much. less platform dependent than a lot of. the influencer things. There are ways. and means now of making money that there. didn't used to be and I just think that, you know, we can sort of. talk about the platforms and we can talk.

about, oh god, everyone is a creator, but it's there's just. there are so many people out there now. who can make a living doing this who. wouldn't have been able to do it 5 years. ago. >> Yeah, it's it's it's it's got a huge. middle class. That's what I'm saying. Like for all economies if they have a. successful and thriving middle class, then perhaps they're going somewhere. >> Yeah, this is. this is definitely that. But you know, it's it's it's it is very easy to sneer. at the world of influencing, but it's. No, I mean previous I mean previously. it's.

you know, I listen I've written books. where influencers have been the murder. victims. You know, I've I've been. I've done it too. >> the first one the next one is out in. September. >> Um but you know, it it I I think there. is this something has happened something. has changed and there are a new group of. content creators who can get paid. directly by people to speak directly to. a small. but the idea of the niche-ness of our. culture being where the money is now and. the idea of journalists being able to. write a Patreon for, you know,

not a huge amount of people, but for. that to make be a better living than. writing a column for a national. newspaper or something like that. You. know, it's it's there's something good. in that, isn't there? There's something, isn't there, in we're. destroying the hierarchy of work. This. idea that you go to work for 45 years at. the same place and you have a boss and. your boss has a boss and your boss's. boss has a boss. You are now if you're really good at. what you do, you don't have to wait 5. years to be promoted. You don't have to. go and sit in the meeting where people. less talented than you are telling you. what to do. You don't have to constantly. be sort of overlooked because.

somebody went to you know, the same. school as the person you're working for. wants to get the job instead. You can go. home, you can turn your ring light on, you can tell people what it is you do. and how you do it. And if they think. you're good, if you give value to them, then you have a completely different way. of making a living. You have a. completely different career. You don't. have that 45 years in a carriage clock. at the end of it. You have this hustle. all the time, is graft all the time, but. there are ways and means of getting paid. just to be yourself with your own.

skills. >> I should say this section of the podcast. is not sponsored by big ring light, but. you know, if you're interested, hit me. up. Shall we go to some adverts and. afterwards talk about Charli XCX? >> We should do talking of macro. influences. >> Yeah. >> [music]. >> This episode is brought to you by Lloyds. rewards. Now, a big mistake that people. make is leaving the cinema as soon as. the credits roll cuz there might be a. bonus scene right at the end.

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>> Welcome back everybody. Now, Charli XCX, one of the few people in show business. to have a surname that's entirely made. of Roman numerals. Nemanja Vidić is my. other favorite. Has a new album out, Marina. >> Yes, it's called music, fashion, film. She says it's about process. >> Okay. >> How did you find it, Richard? >> I loved it. I think, you know, I'm I'm a. big fan of Charli XCX. What I always. find interesting So, obviously Brat was. so enormous. >> That was two summers ago. >> Two summers ago. And this idea of how. you follow up something that's.

absolutely enormous, I always find quite. interesting. What she's done is sort of. what Nirvana did after after Nevermind. when they brought out In Utero, which is. a bit scrappier, a bit kind of no, we're. not going to do this stadium stuff. anymore. We're going to show you who we. really are. And she sort of paired it. back a bit, it's a bit grungier, a bit. dirtier, a bit more guitar-y. So, she. sort of said, "I'm I'm not going to try. and compete with this uber pop of Brat. I'm actually going to show you a. different side of myself." Which Which I. think is quite a smart way of following. up something because you can't get. bigger than Brat. >> You No. And actually, I It was It's.

really interesting. Brat was such a I. mean, obviously, we talked about it at. the time. For someone who'd been a sort. of relatively niche artist, she It. became a complete phenomenon. And I. mean, for me, I find it quite depressing. that like anything that it. Talking about monoculture, anything that. feels countercultural that hits. immediately becomes hoovered up and. commodified instantly by the mainstream. I mean, some of the stuff that happened.

with Brat, you would not be wanting if. you were a a cool and edgy pop star. I. mean, like, do you remember during the. election Kamala Harris changing her. whole page to Brat? It's like, this is. so I find so much of what happened with. it so awful. >> certain thing about being too big. because everyone climbs on everything. You know, you can't You know, everyone. is making We said everyone's making. content about everything. So, everything. Everyone is making content about your. thing because it's the thing that people. are talking about. It's a lot. >> It's It. It was really awful and it was It was so. It was like the total mainstreaming of.

something, you know, she's supposed to. be a sort of like edgy art school kind. of. a club girl. Um and then I don't know. I I have to. say it's difficult Nowadays, we. particularly demand reinventions and. pivots. And. I say it saying how am I going to follow. up, you know, by more of the same. People feel they have to kind of. reinvent themselves and that everyone's. got to be in a series of eras, if you. will. Um. and so, you know, I suppose she says, "Oh, I'm a. contrarian. I'm This is like some kind.

of interstitial album, and I'm just. going to do I found quite a lot of it. quite phoned in, I have to say, but I I. Also, what I like about What I do like. about it is the sense that like after. everybody piled on onto Brat and just. joined the bandwagon, perhaps it will. serve as some kind of fandom cull.". Which is what Nirvana did with the new. trick. Yeah. I hate these fans. I want. to get rid of these new fans. >> Which is very, very common. If you're. Charli XCX. and you're in the moment, as you say, Brat was so enormous, but you know, she.

sat and recorded that in a studio with. her mates, and when it first started. going massive, she sort of starts. counting the money and thinks, "Oh my. god, this is insane." And then, as you. say, it goes super, super massive, and. suddenly you're public property in a way. that you weren't before, and suddenly. everyone is thinking, "What is she going. to do next?" That's a lot of pressure. I. think if you're Charli XCX, you think, "I'm going to do 20 albums in my career. You know, they're they're all going to. be individual ones. This is going to be. a good one. You know, it's. >> Can we talk about her time since then. and what she has actually done? Cuz I. think it's quite interesting. You. obviously have this absolute monster hit. that just gets co-opted by everybody.

She did The Moment, the A24 sort of. mockumentary, which I It was weird. I. was really looking forward to that, and. I found it It was kind of less funny. than it should have been, and it was. whatever, but it's sort of about a meta. version. She has. become very, very meta anyway. Then she. got a Substack because, you know, she's. an artist. >> Yeah. >> Um, she said she talked a lot about. film. And she did the Wuthering Heights. soundtrack. Yeah. And then, the first. single from this new album, she's saying.

the dance floor is dead. You know, it's. all about rock music instead. To a huge. degree, it's so meta, and it's supposed. to be phoned in, and like, does she get, you know, of course she gets the joke. She gets the joke before you. In fact, she just wrote the joke. I didn't mean. this. Yes, I mean this. No, I don't. really mean this. It's difficult when. any artist gets to We talked about this. a bit about with Harry Styles to the to. the point where, and he actually took a. long time away. Where you get to a the. stage in your career where you can only. sing about what it's like to be really. famous. >> Yeah. >> Um and I I always think that can be. quite a difficult spot. >> Is I mean I think you know, I want to.

talk about some of the other people who. followed up massive hits and who's done. it well and who's done it badly. And I. think she's done it pretty well. I think. she she seems to be in control of who. she is. She you know, she does. interesting things. But I just think you. can't you can't judge on this Brat was. so huge and she's still Charli XCX that. she was that she was 5 years ago. She's. still like a woman who just wakes up in. the morning. And so you know, she she. has to deal with all of that and that's. quite difficult. You look at someone. like. the people who followed things up best. So Fleetwood Mac when they first went.

Fleetwood Mac itself came out and was. like massive, like huge and everyone's. thinking, "Oh my god, you're never going. to follow that up. There's no way you're. following up Fleetwood Mac." And they. followed that up with Rumours, which is. like by some standards one of the. biggest albums of all time. They sort of. just did the same thing. >> Yeah. >> But better. >> They didn't feel they had to pivot. >> Yeah. >> But now we live in a period where. everyone has to reinvent. >> Yeah, so Nirvana did pivot, that's for. sure. Radiohead is a perfect example. So. The Bends and more particularly I think. it had been so insanely enormous. I'd. say that Creep was Brat enormous that.

you got these guys from Oxfordshire who. sort of you know, they'd been in a band. for a while, released this song that the. world had just eaten up and they're. like, "Oh my god, what do we do next?". Easiest thing in the world there would. be to do The Bends part two. Actually, they come back with OK Computer, which. if you look back is sort of a insane. masterpiece. >> Yeah. >> They then followed that up by the way. with Kid A where they go, "No, this is. the band we were all along. OK Computer. was us just letting you know we weren't. just The Bends." And then they followed. that up. That's an extraordinary way to. do that and they've got longevity and.

they've they've got that kind of life. You look in movies, you look at someone. like Tarantino who has to follow up. Reservoir Dogs, which again exploded. like a bomb in culture. It was huge and. a huge movie. You think, "Oh my god, how. do you follow that up?" And forget True. Romance cuz that wasn't really a that. wasn't his um. >> He didn't direct. >> directing. He comes out with Pulp. Fiction, which has a lot of the stuff. from Reservoir Dogs, but shows the sort. of genius of his filmmaking. You know, plays about with timelines. You know, extraordinarily. iconic. Builds on everything that people. had loved about uh Reservoir Dogs and.

comes back with that. So, you know, it. is absolutely doable. You get someone. like So, Donna Tartt with The Secret. History is a is probably the perfect. example in books. So, she comes out with. The Secret History. I mean, you can't. It's almost impossible to have a more. iconic book than Secret History. It was. absolutely enormous everywhere in the. world. The pressure to follow up that up. from the publishers, from everyone, even. back in those days of culture would have. been enormous. I mean, crazily enormous. She waits 10 years, does The Little. Friend, which is a great book. Then. waits another 10 years for The. Goldfinch, which is another great book. So, you can do it. You can follow up.

these enormous things. You can do it. But there's a lot of pressure. Most. people fail. Guns and Look at Guns N'. Roses after Appetite for Destruction. They're in that Use Your Illusion era. >> What about the November Rain video, which is iconic? >> Listen, I Nobody loves November Rain. more than me. Uh Harper Lee. >> What about me? I like it more than you. >> you? How much do you like it? >> Um. >> Out of 2,000? No, I'm just asking. >> I'm not playing your game. >> No, I'm just I'm just interested cuz you. said you you liked it more than me. >> I like it more than you.

>> Harper Lee and J.D. Salinger are both. interesting. They're both, you know, Catcher in the Rye and To Kill a. Mockingbird. Harper Lee never. >> Huge Bret Summers. >> Huge Bret Summers. But I mean, that's. the Bret Those are the Bret Summers of. their time. Uh you know, Harper Lee. never follows up To Kill a Mockingbird. She does the kind of prequel which she'd. written before. J.D. Salinger does a few. short stories, but really spends 45. years writing nothing at all. I mean, that's a that's an option you can take. when you've had a a massive hit. Terrence Malick after Badlands and Days. of Heaven doesn't make a movie for 20. years. It's hard to do it. And I think,

you know, Stone Roses, oh my god, the. perfect example. After I mean, the Stone. That was massive, The Stone Roses. And. they think, "Oh, they're going to follow. up this up. It's going to be amazing.". And they did The Second Coming, which is. absolutely fine. But it took them It. took them a long time, cost them a lot. of money, and was kind of fine. I think. it's good like Charlie XCX. >> of them had to live in the culture that. we have to live in now, where you've got. to be an always-on pop star. I mean, just saying the things she's done since. But, in the old days, she'd have gone. away for could have probably gone away. for three or eight four years and then. come back. She's done The Moment, she's. done her Substack, she's done the.

Wuthering Heights soundtrack. She. There's a whole a lot you have to do cuz. you can never be off. You've just got to. con- constantly produce or you fall, you. know, by the wayside. >> That's why I like this album because. it's not her. She hasn't tried She just. made a good album with her mates. And. that's all I think that's all that you. have real real control of. Quite apart. from anything else you do in between. times and who you are and how you. promote yourself. When you're in the. studio, that's all you can do is keep. your head down, write some songs you. like, record some songs you like, put.

them out, 2 years later do that again, 2. years later do that again. And I do. think there's something that's. incredibly noble about that. If you want. to take advantage of everything in our. culture and the money that's in our. culture, the best artists, every couple. of years, look at Madonna now with the. new album, they just go back in. The new. album's brilliant. They do you know, they go back in and they do it again. You know, they get their head down, they. do good work, and they put it out and. people like it again. And that's when. you get this kind of longevity. You. know, it must be so hard in the culture. that we have at the moment. It must be. so hard. But, that's why I when I listen.

to the album, I thought, "Yeah, that's. fine." I thought, "You know what? That's. exactly what it should be. It should be. absolutely fine. It should just be an. album you go, 'Oh, yeah, that's good.'. And in a couple of years, she'll do. something else, and in a couple of years. after that, she'll do something else. >> Yeah, it'd be good if the politicians. don't bandwagon on this one. I can't see. I mean, some some of the songs I can't. really see them doing that. >> doing a Kamala Harris. >> No, I mean, piling onto Yeah, that track that's like. sounds like a edging video. If I may if I may. >> Oh, can I talk about another album that. I absolutely love? And this.

>> You don't want to talk about edging. videos. Okay, fine. >> Listen, you go ahead if you if you if. you need to. I will stick with November. Rain. Which sounds like a edging video. >> [laughter]. >> Oh god, no. >> Neutral Milk Hotel, he did it in the. airplane over the sea. And that's an. album that every indie kid in the whole. world loves and was a super massive. He. has never recorded another record since. It's hard, man. It's hard if you're a. creator and stuff comes out. You can. react in one or two ways. You can either. go into your shell or you can go, I've. I've sort of just got to get back on it. >> Something out and then, yeah.

>> Yeah. So, can I give the last word to. Joseph Heller? >> Please. >> So, Joseph Heller wrote a novel and. after Catch 22. So, an interviewer said to him, "I don't. think you've ever done. anything as good as Catch 22." And. Joseph Heller said, "Well, yeah, you're. right, but who has?". And you know, >> [laughter]. >> you're lucky to have you're lucky to. have these big Nevermind, Stone Roses, Brat you're lucky to have them. And if. you're smart, you can carry on your. career and keep keep doing good work and. keep making good music. But my god, the. pressure of it is insane, right?

>> Yeah. Or M. Night Shyamalan. >> Oh, that's a great example after Sixth. Sense. >> yeah. After Sixth Sense, but also like. everything after that becomes more and. more There's a really good There's a. really good book about he when he's. making this film, The Lady in the Water. And there's a great book about it called. The Man Who Had Voices. It's incredibly. pretentious. >> It really is. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's a journalist who's like. given full access to him for the making. of this film that turns out to spoiler, not be one to trouble the scorers. >> That's a tough one to follow cuz it's. such it's so brilliantly it's got such a.

brilliant unique. twist to it. A bit of him I thought think thought, "Okay, I need to just make sure I've got. a brilliant twist for every single thing. that I do now." And that's you know, he. perhaps he would have made more. interesting films if there hadn't been. quite. >> I think you're just chasing that first. high. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. But yeah, it's anyway, >> Anyway. >> I recommend the album. >> Now, shall we talk about Letterboxd, which is the social media film discovery. platform which became huge in the. pandemic. Lots of really bad things.

became huge in the pandemic, but this. this is one of the good ones. Um via the. app, and it's it's really interesting. It's like it's massive in with Gen Z and. kind of younger millennials. Um and uh it's a huge amount of people. have discovered film culture this way. It's a discovery engine first, I guess, and it's pushed that generation in the. direction of things like horror and. world cinema or in other sort of. different genres of things. >> Japanese movie. Describe what it is. It's sort of a. repository of any movie ever, and just. people review them and rate them. And.

there's. loads and loads of lists. There's loads. and loads of posts you can read. It's. just. Any movie you like, you can do the. deepest of deepest dives here. You can. see everything ranked. You can see the. top thrillers. You can see. >> Everyone does a top four. Your. Letterboxd top four is That's become a. sort of form of. you know, taste as an identity and a. shorthand for yourself, a way of. signaling status. >> Yeah, and it sounds, you know, there's a. million things that are a bit like this, but it's just curated very, very well. Kind of two New Zealand guys, Matthew. Buchanan and Karl von Rando, who who.

originally came up with it. And there's. just something about it. It has an. aesthetic to it, an indie aesthetic to. it that it is appealing to go and visit. When you look at the reviews of films, you're like, "Huh. Oh, this is really. interesting.". >> Yeah, it does but it does connect to the. thing we were saying in our first item. today, which is that like watching and. then posting about it have now just sort. of become two sides of the same coin, you know? >> You can't If you If you watch a film, you think, "Oh, I'll tell you I'll tell. you who's going to be interested in my. view on this? Everyone.". >> Yeah, everyone's a critic.

>> But the nice thing about Letterboxd. actually is the top reviewers are. actually rather interesting. And if you. look through the top 500 films on. Letterboxd, for example, you can tell. it's very global because, you know, there's there are a lot of Japanese. movies on there. There's a lot It's It's. not all the usual suspects. In fact, I. don't think Usual Suspects is in the the. top 100. There is stuff that you will. discover there. However much of a. cineaste you might be, there is stuff. there to discover. I. absolutely love it as a website. I love. cuz I mean I listen, I love a list, of. course I do. But I love discovering new.

things. They have an amazing thing they. do this sort of video rental thing and. you have to pay like 15 quid just to to. you know, it's like buying a video in. the old days where they have films that. just sort of played in festivals and. never got a proper release and you can. you can you know, watch these movies. You can you can you can put them on TV. And so it's it it's properly it's the. real deal, you know, it really it's it. has bonafides. It is interesting, it's. intriguing. Whether it remains that way, we're about to find out because it is up. for sale, which is not always the the.

best thing that can happen to someone. >> It is it's up for sale. It's being it's. valued I think at about 250 million. And. so we'll talk about why it is a. desirable asset. There are lots of. people who might. be in for it. Sony, Paramount, Verizon, which is the. Comcast sort of thing that. >> Netflix. You can you can you can sort of. see it. >> A24, which we'll get to. >> Yeah. >> So if you think Comcast owns that. Verizon. owns. Rotten Tomatoes and Fandango, the kind.

of ticketing and pre-booking or. whatever. >> Which have a similar vibe. Rotten. Tomatoes has a similar vibe. It's this. this feels a bit a more of a deeper. dive, but it's does a similar thing. >> What's appealing to it is you have for. any of those companies who would want to. integrate it into that corporate. structure is that it's you get direct. access to film enthusiasts, obviously. It you you can influence discovery and. you can get kind of first party kind of. taste data on things. It's very very.

useful for marketing, quite obviously. And mainly, it's really cheap. Like. explain look at the entertainment M&A. prices that might be around. There's not. that much that costs 250 million and. that is. But you do also have to be incredibly. careful. And now people know it's for. sale within the community cuz they're. hyper engaged community. >> Everyone's worried. >> They're very very worried. There are. these kind of like fan movements to kind. of. >> Yeah. try and buy themselves. I the idea that A24. may wish to buy it. That I that would.

probably be the least offensive thing to. lots of these. >> if you if you're on the site at the. moment, one of the interesting things. about it is and you realize how rare it. is in our culture. You look at Wikipedia. and and and this. where it's kind of under monetized. And. I think oh my god, thank god that. something is under monetized. I'm not. constantly being driven towards. something. I'm not constantly being sold. to. There's you know, bits of. advertising and you know, there's. there's a patron tier for power users, of which I'm I am not one. But you but.

you are not you don't feel you are. constantly being. fed by the algorithm and you're not. being constantly monetized by it. It. still feels like an indie site. It feels. like something you've stumbled upon that. is a community and those things are. rarer and rarer and usually they're. quite niche. There's plenty of them that. are niche. When you get something this. size and you're still going, oh my god, it still seems to be run by the users. But as you say, when as soon as you. know, venture capitalists look at. something that's under capitalized, they. they they like to capitalize.

>> Well, if you look up. It's possible. This is why I think. perhaps A24 would be the best fit for. it. I don't know. Because that is obviously A24 it didn't. even exist 15 years ago and it's like. modern art house. Again, a young. company. It deliberately cultivates fandoms and. merchandise and social and what it's. made for internet culture. It thrives by. the way, their movies completely thrive. on something like Letterboxd because. they are all suited to internet culture. and they all understand it.

>> A24 themselves say that the Brutalist. was such a hit largely [clears throat]. through Letterboxd. It was like one of. the incredible sort of things that that. that powered the success of that movie. >> And and the yes, and people want to. discover the other directors in their. whole stable of auteurs and all of that. That's it. You can see that with it's. amazing to some degree that A24 has been. able to keep that kind of edginess and. keep that and a lot of people call it a. cult and say that their fans are like. cult like they carry they pay to carry. around the merchandise, but you have to. take our hats off completely I should. say.

full disclosure I have things in. development with them so but on the TV. side. but it would make sense for them to buy. something like that. I mean it would. make sense by the way for all of these. people to buy something an asset that is. of this price and you can see how it. could happen, but. many of these people could completely. ruin it. >> Yeah, there is there is a sort of. public benefit corporation called. intrinsic entertainment collaborative. who are trying to. raise money to buy it themselves and I. mean it's possible could happen you know.

it's it's because it has such an engaged. community who will be happy to. you know chip in, but yeah you. I don't want to fast forward 3 years and. be on Letterboxd and just go oh this is. not as good as it used to be because. >> They've destroyed it yeah cuz at the. moment they own a such a dedicated. audience. >> Yeah. >> And yes, it would be interesting to see. how it how it plays out. I think perhaps. I don't think that intrinsic will get. it, but. >> No, I don't think they will either. because there's people with deeper. pockets who could do things with it that. would fit into other businesses far. more. So if you don't use Letterboxd and.

it's Letterboxd without the letter e at. the end. If you're interested it was. really really worth having a look at I. guarantee you'll find something that you. find interesting very very quickly in. it. It's. it's an example of just something that. works for all of its members I think and. that's that's very rare. Plus we get. Goldhanger to buy it. >> Yeah. >> Just so we can hang out with them. >> Yes. >> Yeah, that'd be fun. Any recommendations. this week? >> Well, it sort of fits into what we've. been talking about, but I read a very. interesting book called Rate This Book. by Benji Wilson which is about how.

five-star ratings took over the world. touches on much of which we spoken about. today and it's really really interesting. how this one thing has come to dominate. almost everything and the you think you. understand like how much of it there is. in our world, but you don't even You. haven't scratched the surface. So, that's an interesting one. It's called. Rate This Book by Benji Wilson. >> very cool. I want to add to my previous. recommendation of Widows Bay, which is. on Apple, because I'd seen the first. three episodes that had dropped and now. I've seen the whole thing has all. dropped. So, genuinely, it's brilliant.

But, I I do need to say it does get. really scary. >> [laughter]. >> So, it remains funny, but it gets really. like really scary as well. >> got so many good shows on. >> Amazing. >> Yeah, but I just if if if you started. watching it uh and it was too scary for. you, I apologize. And if you're going to. start watching it now, it's brilliant. And Matthew Rhys's performance is. insanely good, but it is really scary as. well. So, what I recommend also is. there's a new series of my favorite show. on BBC One, which is Fake or Fortune, where Fiona Bruce and Philip Mould take. people who think they might have. masterpieces and they go through all the.

verification processes. And it's just it. talks about art history. There's lots of. science in it, lots of human stories. And the first one this week is about a. woman in Liverpool who believes she has. a Fabergé. flower. >> Ooh. >> And this it's such a great story as. well. The thing I love about that is go, "Ah, no. Oh. Oh, no. Oh." And it's just. they they tell it brilliantly. They tell. human stories with it as well. It's just. one It's one of those shows that just. keeps on giving. So, Fake or Fortune. >> We will be back on Thursday with a Q&A.

>> We will. >> And you will be bringing us a for our. members a very special episode of the. World Cup. >> Uh yes, the World Cup of movie quotes. So, the greatest movie quotes. >> Aw. >> of all time. >> I'm dying for that one. >> Yeah, it's really good. And it's really. And then you you go. trying to work out what works as a movie. quote, what doesn't work. And yeah, it's. it's uh myself, uh Better Hull on, Ivo. Graham, and we will let you know which. movie quote of the British public thinks. is the greatest of all time. And we are. also just in the midst of uh recording.

our history of James Bond as well, which. will be out for members soon, which. we're really having fun with. >> I'm really enjoying it. I've said a. number of inappropriate things in the. first recording, but. >> god, you said something so inappropriate. in the first recording. You know, I I. think cuz you explained afterwards why. it wasn't inappropriate, but at the time. it sounded it. So, uh listen out for. that when that comes out. >> [laughter]. >> So, you'll be on Thursday. >> See you on Thursday. >> [music].

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