Has The BBC Cancelled Doctor Who?

What are we talking about this week? >> We are talking about there's a World Cup. on and we are going to be talking about. the kind of I would in the old days we. just said TV event but it's now a. massive social media event. We're going. to be talking about all of those things. and how it's changing the way we consume. sport and accelerating changes that are. already happening. >> Yeah. It's like the World Cup of crisps. but for football. And we are also talking about Doctor. Who. Been a big furore this week about. whether it's been cancelled or not. We'll be telling you exactly what's.

happening with it and I'll also be. telling you who should be the next. doctor. I have I think the perfect next. doctor. >> The Rest Is Entertainment is presented. by Octopus Energy. Now fan mail is one. of entertainment's strangest bargains. You send total devotion one way and the. understanding that nothing may come. back. >> Certainly in our day you would write to. a film star or a singer. I wrote to. Howard Jones. and you maybe three months later a sort. of signed photo comes back that's. clearly pro forma. You know that that.

you you know Howard's never really. looked at. >> Steve Martin used to have a pro forma. sort of thing which we just leave blanks. like insert like small detail to to make. a joke about how completely impersonal. his personal reply to you was so it was. just like a standard thing. >> Impersonal is interesting. That's why. we're talking about this because Octopus. Energy you always can reply to their. emails. And not only can you reply to. them they will go to the same small. group of people who always deal with. you. That's like unbelievable. >> It's almost unprecedented that a company. you're giving your your money to will.

actually respond to you. >> all contactable in some way. Shall we talk about the World Cup? >> Cup. >> I mean I'm I'm still giddy from Ivory. Coast [clears throat] one Ecuador nil. So forgive me if I'm breathless. >> There are 104 matches obviously 48. teams. >> It feels like more. >> But haunted cue ball who I absolutely. hate be for president Gianni Infantino. Can I just say right off the bat, bring. back Sepp Blatter. Blatter in, okay? Infantino has promised 100 At the start.

of this he said, "Think of 104 Super. Bowls.". I don't know if you watched Qatar. Switzerland like we all had to because. that's the timing of it all. Those those I I I like countries that. would that would never [clears throat]. ordinarily have anything to do with each. other. They're two of the great. geopolitical mediators, of course, Switzerland and Qatar. But, you know. what? I don't think Guy Mowbray. mentioned it. We will talk about it as a TV. or a media event because unless if. you're lucky enough to be at the World.

Cup, well done you. I hope you're having. a brilliant time. But, obviously for the. vast majority of people this is. experienced as a TV and now a sort of. social media or other platforms event. The timing of it, particularly for us in. the UK, has meant that, you know, it's. quite obvious. You try to sit down and. you think, "I want to watch the World. Cup now." And you really can't watch any. World Cup till very very late. >> Yeah, some games are like 8:00 or 9:00. p.m. But, there's 11:00 p.m. games. There's There's 2:00 a.m. games. There's. 5:00 a.m. games. Just cuz of the time. difference, it is a very very difficult.

World Cup for us to watch. What we. really want, what we really love, is a. World Cup where there's a game at 10:00. in the morning, there's a game at 2:00. in the afternoon, and then there's a. game at 7:00. That's the perfect World. Cup for us. >> disagree. 2:00, 5:00, and 8:00. >> 2:00, 5:00, and Oh, I like a 10:00 in. the morning. >> We have jobs, so it's hard. >> No, oh absolutely. But, the whole point. of a World Cup is how do you fit your. job is how do you fit your job in? I I. want to walk through an office where. everyone is pretending to work, but. they've all got their computer on, and. they've got the BBC Sport app showing. the game. >> Okay, but I mean for.

for everyone who's not in offices and. different types of jobs, no. I think. 2:00, 5:00, and 8:00 is the optimal. World Cup times. Maybe we'll get some. more of that next time around. >> My favorite thing about going to America. is always you can watch Premier League. football at. sort of 10:00 in the morning. >> Things are filling the gap because it's. harder to watch in a way. So, there are. lots and lots of shows, podcasts. One. very notable one because it's in our. stable, the rest is football, are in New. York and they've got a big place. overlooking Times Square, a big. apartment where I'm obsessed with things.

that are on the kitchen island. >> Yeah, I assume they're living together, the three guys. >> Yeah, they live in the same staircase, so I assume they live upstairs. Them filming this that bit is a a. spin-off sitcom for. >> Oh, that's a lot what would they call it. friends? I think they would actually, to. be fair. >> Yeah. [laughter]. >> I wonder what they do things like but. they wouldn't call it friends, like like. pretending that they weren't friends. >> Yeah, but I think. >> Sadly, I think they are. It's not like. it's not like Rory and Alister. >> No. >> [laughter]. >> I watched that sitcom. >> I would watch that. Is it Is it a. sitcom? >> [laughter]. >> That's like that's like Is the Bear a. sitcom?

It'd be quite stressful. >> Yeah, it was a stressful two-hander. Um. and anyway, so stick to football, they're on YouTube. Obviously, there's. lots of podcasts that Guardian have got. a very successful one, World Cup Daily, which is doing very well. Piers Morgan. is doing a something a World Cup on. Centered, some sort of spin-off off the. the kind of main rage-bait brand, which. has got him Simon Jordan and. >> John Terry. >> god. >> Even like you know, James Corden is. doing something for Fox Fox After Hours, which is a kind of spin-off thing on it. Everything's a bit like a sort of.

airport Wetherspoons in that whenever. you're watching everyone's got a sort of. pint or a glass of wine and it's kind of. fine, I think. There would seem to be a. focaccia on the The Rest Is Football. >> Oh, The Rest Is Football, yeah, yeah. >> table kitchen island the other day. But. it is harder to watch games, so clips. and punditry. are. really filling a lot of gaps. And. they're sort of doing that in general. anyway, which we'll come to. >> Well, it feels like the whole. virtually the whole of media has turned. into an episode of Soccer AM. >> Yeah. >> But slightly less well-funded. >> But yeah, what do you do when you don't.

have the rights? Because of the timing. of it, people want stuff and also I do. think that people are changing the way. they consume sport. >> The Rest Is Football seems to work by it. kind of drops at 6:00 a.m. every day. You can switch on Netflix. And of. course, they don't have the goals, but. they you know, like any of those. podcasts, they're just chatting about. the game and that's interesting cuz. you've seen some of them, you haven't. seen some of them. And you can watch the. goals on your phone. That's the point. I. mean, there there are places where you. can watch the goals. You don't need them. to be sort of talking through it. So, it. weirdly works. I I will talk we'll we'll.

talk a little bit more about the whole. thing, but I will talk later about what. I think this means for Netflix cuz I. think I think it has a real. significance. I think The Rest Is. Football is going to have a real. significance for Netflix. >> Okay, let's talk first about all of this. kind of I don't know what you call it, like ancillary stuff. Everything that's. on YouTube. >> Let's call it Soccer Aid. >> Is it Yeah. Is it just about Is it all. clips? Because there's so much stuff now. you see a clip, the holy grail of sort. of going viral, creating noise. I always. think of it as a slight There is an. answer to it, but it's a sort of yes,

but why? Yes, but why? You know, okay, is it successful if something goes. viral? Yes, but why? You know, and. actually in the end when you get down to. the ultimate yes, but why of this, it. for all of these things, it is about. discovery of. >> your show, your podcast. >> or whatever you do. And it's about. subscriber acquisition. So, it turns a. piece of a pretty cheap content into. something that drives customer. acquisition for whether you're doing. some sort of So, >> It also. >> And and you get high more sponsorship. and better platform distribution.

>> It also, by the way, goes even deeper. than that, which is for the individual. people on those shows, it is good for. their personal brand. And there are ways. that they can monetize. They can just. go, "Look, I had over, you know, 200. million views on this. Perhaps you want. to book me for your conference.". >> Yeah. When Gary Lineker in the the last. Euros said England played I mean, it's not even it's something that any of. us would have said to each other, but it. was because it was different to how he. was speaking on the BBC, it was a. massive sort of viral moment and it was. very good for The Rest Is Football. It. drove a lot of sort of subscribers and.

it drove a lot of discovery and and so. on. >> find it amazing after saying that that. he's still at the BBC. I find that I'm. sorry. >> [laughter]. >> No, I do find it amazing that Micky. Flanagan is still at the BBC. Anyway, we. will get on to all of that. >> And so we know that the internet rewards. strong opinions, tribalism, and. conflict. >> Welcome to sport. >> Yeah. And all of these clips are really. like do you strongly agree, do you. strongly disagree, can you strongly not wait to be able to. share this in a mocking way when it's. proved wrong? >> Can you believe that?

>> essentially the three things of a of a. football clip. >> Essentially it's yeah, can you believe. what Shearer said now? >> Yeah. And they all slightly do it. And even. actually like I mean you once you start. seeing it, you think oh I see get Gary. Lineker saying I'm going to if the USA. go all the way, I'm going to present. this in my pants, which we know he said. before Match of the Day about Leicester. 10 years ago. Gary Neville the other day. talking about why we if they've got all. this technology, why won't FIFA show it. to us? It's like a dictatorship. I. thought I love all this stuff, you know.

But then that that's for ITV and that. goes. that goes viral. And it's a way of. >> Yeah. >> All of this stuff sort of exists as I. mean even Alexi Lalas who. >> Yeah, yeah. >> None of us really want to watch the. World Cup via Fox at all. But I'm now. aware of what they're doing because. Alexi Lalas said about James Corden oh. he's a full kit wanker. Um and so now. we're like all right, I see Alexi Lalas. is doing for you know, it is. >> And also he's trying to tell us Zlatan. Ibrahimovic about football. >> Yeah. >> Which is interesting. >> I can't I mean Lalas I can strongly live.

without. >> Yeah. >> He's hardcore MAGA. But what I think. it's interesting is is that all of this. and particularly over here as I've said. because of the timing is it's all about. these changing habits, which is that. young people are not abandoning sport, but they just consume it totally. differently now. Full match viewing is. becoming a much smaller part of whatever. sports consumption is. >> The matches weirdly feel like a slight. interruption into the flow of banter. >> Content. Yeah.

>> [clears throat]. >> Cuz you do think oh my god, I've been. really enjoying everything. And now I'm. going to watch 90 minutes of this? >> Yeah, well I know you know people can't. read a whole book anymore. >> the same is I think the same is. happening to football. >> So do I. >> I really do. I think we're finding it. almost impossible to sit through a a. whole match. And that used to be the. like the dream. You used to go, "Oh my. god, the match is on and it's what's. happening? What's happening?". >> it on our break and I have the next one. and then on our break and the next one. and that's well. >> But now it's like you watch you watch. the first 10 minutes just to look at the. kits. Uh and then you keep an eye on. your phone just in case it goes to like. three all or something. You think, "Oh,

I I've got to watch the last 15 minutes. of that." But yeah, I think the football. match is going the way of the book. >> Yes, which is. we all have our views on that. I. definitely think it's bad with books. But younger fans it's sort of. highlights, clips. >> Yeah. >> social content, athlete led social. content that's around the edge of it and. punditry. And. all of this is set up this time round to. cater to that. Partly because of the. time zone, partly because of people. being forward looking. If you look at. what all the different broadcasters have.

done there was an interesting poll done. by YouGov saying that there's a whole. thing that like oh Gen Z they don't like. sport. That's not true. 74% of 18 to 24. year olds follow sport regularly. Um but only 30% watch primarily watch. full games. 34% say they prefer. highlights over full games. But I would. have thought that has actually even gone. up the 34% since they did that. So they. might watch 10 minutes of highlights, some TikToks. They might have a 45 or. even a 60-minute podcast about it all.

But that's all adds up to I suppose. >> Yeah, so. >> it all adds up to 90. But it's not 90 as. we knew it. >> Yes, it has become a completely. different game. But the amount of money. in it is so absolutely beyond enormous. Firstly, you I think our attention spans. can't take 90 minutes of a football game. anymore. But secondly, everyone wants a. piece of that, you know, it's like it's. like the weapons industry. There's a lot. of money in it. So even if you can get. 2% of it then you are making out like a. bandit. And so everyone is really really. vying for the for the money, for the.

sponsorship money, for the attention. money. >> The rights are almost becoming a burden. So, if you look at the US broadcasters. who feel like, you know, with CBS, we. have to have this stuff going through. our pipes. It's insanely expensive. It. actually doesn't pay for itself. But, it. brings people. There's some sort of. halo. It costs a fortune to get any. sports rights. And almost everything. that we're talking about here. has no rights of any type. They don't. have highlights. They don't have. anything. And TikTok have got some. rights this time. And you TikTok can.

stream a couple of full games, I think. YouTube have got packages. They're. trying to sort of attract other. creators, the all the broadcasters, >> Yeah. >> as a as a forward-looking thing to say, it doesn't have to be this. It doesn't, you know, if we don't have the rights or. whatever, we can still have something. around this. >> Yeah. >> As you say, the weapons industry. >> The numbers for the games are still huge. on terrestrial TV. And you know, there's. games getting 3 and 1/2, 4 and 1/2. million. >> Yeah. >> The the Scotland match. like 1.7 million at 2:00 in the morning. You don't need to know much about TV to. know that's quite a big audience at 2:00.

in the morning. But, if you think of the. money they spent for it, for, you know, 3.5 million viewers, it's it's amazing. It's great for a channel. But, you could be. in a loft in New York with a couple of. cameras. getting clips that go crazily viral with. far more than 3 million people. And. that's that's that's the business we're. in now. You know, I I would have thought. the rights to live broadcasting sports, I think there's an interesting future.

>> So do I. >> Because. the noise around sport is becoming much. more lucrative. >> is becoming bigger than the sport. itself. I couldn't agree more. In that case, can I just get on to some. of the sort of. standard so-called controversies we've. been seeing like the BBC aren't going. They're doing it from Salford. I. couldn't care less, by the way. >> Do you know what? And that's. >> It's not even a football country. So, I'm sorry. I have to say that when I see. like everyone's like No, the US. So, when you see, I By the way, this is no.

shade on ITV's set, which is obviously. amazing and they got the Brooklyn Bridge. and Manhattan in the background, but I. don't think of. There's something about football. countries. So when Spain and Morocco. have it, if they have, you know, Sagrada. Familia in the background of in. Barcelona and you're looking at that, it's like, oh, that's football, because. Spain is a football country. But when I. see the Manhattan skyline, whilst. amazing, I don't immediately think of. football. So I literally couldn't care. whether they're there or not. I honestly. couldn't. >> I think it's a a real object lesson in. The BBC are currently are going through.

lots and lots and lots of cuts. I think. they they announced this week they might. be doing 10 10% of the news division, for example, but they're trying to find. lots of places to make cuts. And this is. a perfect one. It's You know what? It's. great to have everyone out there because. you get the vibe of the World Cup and it. feels very special. They don't need to. be there. If you see, they've got three. great presenters, Kelly Cates, Gabby. Logan and Mark Chapman. They've got a. great set, a great studio. They're. following the match. They've got. reporters out there. They're watching. stuff on their phones just like we are.

They They are immersed in this. tournament. And it has saved millions to. not send everyone over there. >> and rowing and it's all made by the. enemies of the BBC, who by the way, if. they had sent them, they would be like, I can't believe the BBC is spending this. much money on a football. >> amazing Telegraph headline about it's. the work from home World Cup for the. BBC. >> It's so pathetic. You can't win with. these people. You can't win at all. And. to sort of compare it with Glastonbury, something like that, yeah, that's a. weekend. It's so stupid that I'm. embarrassed for anyone making that. argument.

>> Yes. Agreed. >> So I don't care about things like that. I think. >> think they are going if if England or. Scotland get to towards the end of the. tournament, of course people will go out. there. But it works so perfectly well. and there's an immediate cost saving. And it's it's one of those things you. absolutely get into the rhythm of going, well, of course you have to send them. out because, you know, like in news, like anywhere, But do need to be on the. on the spot and on the scene. But you. know, so long as the commentators are in. the stadium, >> Obviously. >> you just stick the presenters anywhere. >> Yeah. >> It's great. You know, it's it's like and.

it's like money completely saved and. there is zero, literally zero difference. to the coverage. >> I couldn't agree more. Can we talk a little bit about how. particularly sporting events really. usher in innovations in the way things. are filmed and what have you? >> Are we going to talk about ref cam? I. hope so. >> You know I'm getting on to ref cam. That's where I'm going. Okay. By the. way, you take everything from FIFA. That's to just to explain to people. where you get the stuff. It's not like. the feed comes from them. The. innovations are up to them and they've. got various different ones this time.

They. 3D scanned all the players to so that. they could help with decisions. >> And also it means they can clone them in. future. >> Yes. And yeah, >> So they can have an intergalactic. football league where they don't have to. play pay any players. >> Awesome. Humans disagreeing with any of. the any of the things they do. But yeah, referee cam, I mean they have this in. rugby. They've managed to sort of put. some AI stabilizer on it so it doesn't. look like. >> Yeah. >> horror movie found footage. >> [laughter]. >> It's not like back rooms. >> But yeah, yeah, exactly. Mexico South. Africa game, they showed the Raul. Jimenez goal on it and it was some.

referee wasn't Santiago just sort of. chasing. I was thinking, "God, it's. quite a hard work, isn't it, ref, to. keep up with these guys who, you know, hearing a pretty fast.". >> Yes. Generally A makes you makes you feel. much more sympathy and empathy for. referees. But B is just brilliant. >> Yeah. Or that's. >> looks amazing. >> immersive. >> Yeah, more more like a computer game, but but real. >> Yeah, POV, you know, it's everything is. yeah. The audio is very is different, which is always a bit of a liability. So.

you have to be quite careful with the. audio cuz do we actually want to hear. what they're saying? But you're supposed. to get because of all various of these. innovations you're supposed to get sort. of faster and fairer offside decisions. I mean, I have some sympathy with Gary. Neville. If you do it, can you please. tell us, can you show us then? >> Yeah. >> And if you're keeping the information. in, I just don't trust you. >> I think it's a dictatorship. I think. FIFA is a dictatorship. I think the. World Cup is an abomination. >> There there are our laughs for today for. our Yeah. >> Something like that. And let me tell you. something about Gary Lineker.

>> Lots of people are loving Christina. Unkel. She's doing She's fantastic, isn't she? >> She's an American referee who they bring. in if there's ever any controversial. decisions, which there always are. And. she's so no-nonsense. She was on the. last World Cup as well. She was great on. that. >> Very, very good. >> Uh but, you know, that sort of thing is. uh that's a joy to watch. >> The cameras are very good. They've got. lots more of the sort of spider cams. You can't have drone cameras so much in. football, which they did which were. really good in the Winter Olympics, I. thought. The drone cameras are amazing, but you can't have that cuz they'll. probably get taken out by a. >> Oh, yeah, by the ball.

>> Yeah. Or by one of the Sorry, again. America, we have no need to have. military heli- helicopters doing a fly. past above a game. Just absolutely We. don't do that. >> Honestly, I'd rather that's what. American military helicopters were doing. at the moment. >> Roger. You're right. You're right. I. would prefer. >> escalation, isn't. >> well, you know what? I would I would. love it if you got Anyway, well well. I'll I'll be overtaken This broadcast. will be overtaken by a deal in in Iran. by. >> Healey, the defense secretary, resigned. cuz he said, "I don't have enough money. to protect our country and also do fly.

pasts.". >> pasts over every Premier League game. >> Yeah. I can't I can't do it all. >> It's very, very militarized if you ever. go to NFL games in in US. It There's so. much of military hardware in the skies. as a display before. I don't feel we. need to see this in during a World Cup. Certainly not where someone's just been. awarded a peace prize. Um but anyhow, um. but FIFA have been sort of talking about. data-tainment. They they They're sending. people in the stadium. The Wi-Fi's. apparently way better, and so they're. send- they're sending you stuff on your. phone. Well, I mean, it could hardly. have been worse. Well, you actually.

couldn't send your copy when you were. filing from the stadium sometimes. >> Oh, really? >> My god, sometimes there would be real. disasters, but anyway. But yeah, so. they're sending stuff to people's phones. in the stadium, and they're trying to. just make it all. >> I hate it so much. Just you know what? Just I know how I want to watch. football. I know when I want to look up. I'll choose the one podcast that I love. I'll look at the goals and I'll choose. the games I want to watch live. That's. all I want to do. Stop trying to upsell. me all the time. >> Yes, I agree. And they're always trying. to make it seem like they're innovating. >> Stop putting a QR code on the screen.

saying, "If you want more information.". I have all the information I need. I. have all the information I need. Exactly. I have all the information in. the world. I do not need your QR code. >> But there is always there's a sort of, you know, Americans like that a distinct. aesthetic to their sports and how they. like it to look. And obviously FIFA have. leaned towards that to some degree. >> Can I talk a little bit about the rest. of football and what it means for. Netflix? So it was an interesting deal. that uh that the guys struck. A very.

lucrative one as well. And it is. essentially sort of turning a podcast. into a television program which we've. talked about a lot before. That kind of. mission creep of. when you start videoing podcasts and. then suddenly everyone under 35 starts. watching them. And. >> Yeah. >> [clears throat]. >> then they start watching them on their. TV. And then the streamer goes, "Oh, actually we could that feels like a bit. of you know, visual content. That we we. do visual content. Perhaps you can come. on this." And when they do that, of. course, they want slightly higher. production values. And then suddenly you. it's turned into, as you say, a slightly.

lower budget football focus. I mean, that's what it becomes. But if you look. at the rest of football, Netflix for a. long time. have been desperately trying to uh get. into the order of scheduled television. So they do a pop culture jeopardy with. um Colin Jost and things like that. They. they want people to come back every day. to watch the same thing uh in the same. way that terrestrial TV is always done. >> stay longer on the service because at. the moment I think there's some dispute. whether it's an hour an hour and a half. or two hours that people spend on. Netflix. I think it's closer to an hour.

And that's it. They want you to spend. much longer than that on the service. >> And the best way of doing that is have a. show that's on every day for you that's. like an hour hour and a bit long and The. Rest Is Football ever since it started. it's been in the top 10 an awful lot. since it launched and often when you. launch a show it is in the top 10. because of the way the algorithm works. But if they can as the tournament. progresses stay in that top 10 three. four five six weeks and also they can. show to Netflix viewers that you can. turn on your TV and there's something a.

new episode of the thing you liked. yesterday and it's live and you can come. and watch it. That's it's just a way of. changing that consumer behavior and it's. a really good it's a really good sort of. Trojan horse to get people to understand. that. >> Sport yeah sport particularly. >> Yeah. >> And we know that they don't you know. they don't they have had some sporting. rights. but they they say they haven't and they. say that they they say everything never. believe Netflix what they say but they. want to have sports adjacent stuff. >> Yeah. >> So particularly when you've got. something like this happening the World. Cup which is obviously a kind of daily. iterative incredibly compelling.

attention event. >> They're desperate to get into the world. of visualized podcasts cuz visualized. podcasts are the absolute holy grail. which is there are a lot of them. They. have a loyal audience who want to see. the next one. They create a big library. as well but they're very very very. cheap. >> Yeah. >> And you leave them on. >> Yeah. >> Almost as though you used to leave the. TV or the radio on in the background. >> And as you say the World Cup is is the. perfect opportunity to say. this is a destination for that if you. would like that cuz none of the.

visualized podcasts have really taken. off and none of their scheduled programs. have really taken off. It makes a lot of. noise but people are not being driven to. it day after day after day in the way. that you know. BBC daytime has with Homes Under the. Hammer. >> Yeah. >> Um Netflix essentially need their Homes. Under the Hammer. >> every day to go there. >> Uh and at the moment The Rest Is. Football is Netflix's Homes Under the. Hammer. I mean I should have said Bargain Hunt. really cuz that's that's more. appropriate but I I do think it's going. to is is going to be a huge deal for. Netflix. I think seeing that those.

people coming back again and again and. again and again for the same thing. You. know, if you make a 2-hour film, you'll. get a certain amount of. viewers. If you make an hour every day. for 6 weeks and people are still coming. back and coming back and coming back, that is an entirely different business. plan. In fact, it's the business. >> like in the supermarket? You go you're. going back in every day for it. It's. important and you just keep. >> And while you're there, you go, "Do you. know what? I I actually will get some. Ferrero Rocher.". >> Yes. >> You know, we talked about the games. themselves being less important. I think. the the BBC and ITV have both done an. amazing job in this World Cup. The.

presenting teams on both channels are. great. ITV's pundit lineup is really, really good. It's really, really good. They did two games in a row the other. day and they swapped all three pundits. and every single one, I was like, "Well, this is great.". >> No fella. >> Yeah. Emma Hayes, I love. She's great. I. think both the channels are doing a a. great job, but this world around it, this noise around it, the. podcastification of the World Cup, I. think is fascinating and if you don't. like it, it's not going anywhere. >> No. >> It really isn't. >> Now, shall we take a hydration break?

>> Oh, that's very clever. And after that, we're going to talk about is Doctor Who. canceled? >> [music]. >> This episode is brought to you by. Lloyds. Now, I love it when characters. are part of a club. You wouldn't know. anything about that, would you, Richard? >> The Thursday Murder Club in some ways. reminds me of the A-Team. >> I would now like to map each of those. characters onto the A-Team and feel I. probably could. I mean, Elizabeth is. Hannibal and it's not even close. >> [laughter]. >> That's That's exactly right and Ron is. Howling Mad Murdock. >> Well, there are definite perks to being. in a club. Just ask the members of Club.

Lloyds because with Club Lloyds, you can. bank on Lloyds to give you more wherever. you are. >> If you join Club Lloyds, there's all. sorts of benefits you can choose. between. There's, for example, six free. cinema tickets. >> They've got an annual coffee club and. gourmet society membership, which would. be mine. >> And also something that the Thursday. Murder Club would enjoy very, very much. indeed. To top it all off there, you. have fee-free spending abroad, which. means wherever you are, you won't be. charged by Lloyds to use your debit card. when you're traveling. Now, joining this. club costs £5 per month, but that is.

refunded in any month that you pay. £2,000 into your account. >> Now, that is a club that's worth being. part of. Check out Club Lloyds today. You'll need to be a UK resident and aged. 18 or over to apply. >> [music]. >> Welcome back everyone. We're about to. talk about Doctor Who, but you're doing. another live show without me. >> I'm doing a live show at the Rest Is. Fest at the Southbank on the 6th of. September, which is a crossover event. with Tom Holland from The Rest Is. History.

>> Okay. >> And it's called The Real Housewives of. Regency England. I want to explain that. we're essentially. spending the entire profit margin of the. weekend's festival on this one show. It's got very high production values. There's a number of things happening. around it, and I think it will be a huge. amount of fun. It will combine, if you. love Regency England or you love The. Real Housewives. I don't know which camp. I'm in. >> It's a bit of both. >> There's a There's There's something for. everyone. >> Beautiful. And. we can get tickets?

>> You can get tickets for this at. southbankcentre.co.uk, and it's on Sunday the 6th of September. >> Let's talk about Doctor Who. Now, Doctor. Who, there's there's been a furory or a. furore. >> What's happened, Richard? >> in the news this week because the BBC. have announced that they are canceling. the upcoming Christmas special, and they are putting Doctor Who out to. tender. And. the fan base, and indeed the newspapers, seem to have taken the expression out to. tender to mean out to pasture. So,

there's been lots of headlines saying. Doctor Who has been canceled. I won't. string this out too much. It is not been. canceled. It has been the opposite of. canceled. What's the opposite of. canceled? Continued, I guess. So, what. has happened is this, and I'll I'll. explain what being put out to tender. means as well. >> say where we finished, okay? >> Yeah. >> The last that audiences saw was last. May, 2025, which ended on a cliffhanger where. Shooty Gatwa, the. current doctor, regenerated.

into Rose Tyler, who, if you know the. show, was is Billy Piper and was one of. the doctor's companions right back when. Russell T. Davies, the showrunner, first. brought the show back in 2005, and he. was the showrunner from 2005 to 2010. Then other people took it over. And he. returned in 2023. When he returned, there was a. co-production deal with Disney Plus, which I will get into all of this. Anyway, so. >> And that was the last episode.

essentially of that Disney Plus deal. So. Disney Plus pulled out after that. Their. money came out as well, which. is sort of bad, but you know, these. things almost always happen. Disney. needed it to be a certain thing. BBC. needed it to be a certain thing. And it it didn't tick all the boxes for. everyone. So Disney pulled out. And. the BBC go, "No, listen, we're carrying. on. We're going to do this Christmas. special." So there's news this week that. says, "Oh, we're not doing the Christmas. special, and we're putting it out to. tender." I think it. understandably makes everyone think, "Oh. my god, is that the end for Doctor Who?". True story, I've tried to speak to.

people from every side of this story. And what happened was so in 2025, Disney. pulled out. The BBC are still absolutely. saying, "No, we are. definitely going to carry on with Doctor. Who. What we will do is we're going to. put this out to tender." Again, I'll. explain what that means in 2028, 2029. That was the original idea. At which. point everyone goes, "Oh, we we should. do a Christmas special to, you know, sort of bridge that gap cuz that's. that's a long time.". >> made by or it was made by Bad Wolf.

>> Yeah, they were they were an independent. production company. But BBC own the. rights. Bad Wolf made the show. So they said, "Look, we're going to put. this out to tender." And because the BBC. were dealing dealing with Trump and. Charlotte Moore, who was the chief. content officer, was leaving and Kate. Faddis was coming in. So there was there. was a lot of churn at that point. And as. soon as Kate Phillips probably gets her. feet under the table, she said, "Oh, we're going to put out to tender now.". cuz it's the whole point of putting out. to tender is. this is a big deal for us. This show is. a big deal for us. It's It's the. opposite saying we're going to rest it. It's the opposite of saying we're.

putting out to pasture. It is saying. this show is a big deal for us. We want. to have this give it multi-series. We. need now to find production companies to. pitch into us to say they want to make. Doctor Who. So, as you say, Bad Wolf. make it at the moment. I don't think. that they will pitch to do the new one. cuz Bad Wolf are very successful at the. moment. And you know, Doctor Who is it's. a it's quite a burden to carry. It's. almost like being, you know, the owner. of a football team if you're in charge. of Doctor Who. There's a lot of politics that come with.

it. >> more fear of moving in and we'll we'll. get onto the fandom shortly. >> companies can now pitch. to make Doctor Who. That contract is up. for grabs. The BBC do this all the time. with all sorts of shows. Shows that they. own the IP for. So, something like Fake. or Fortune, that went out to tender. Songs of Praise went out to tender. Mastermind, stuff like that. These shows. where they make it and it is beholden on. them to say what's the best way we can. make this. Can we keep it in-house or has a. production company got a great idea. about how to make the show? >> Studios could pitch within this process.

>> BBC Studios could absolutely pitch. BBC. Studios almost always win these tenders. >> Yeah. >> And you know, and then sometimes it's. cuz they make you know, like something. like Fake or Fortune, BBC Studios make. it anyway. And so, they have those. talent relations. They have the cost. savings of knowing how to make it. So, you know, BBC Studios usually are at an. advantage. In this case, of course, it's. been made by Bad Wolf for a long time. So, they don't have any kind of. incumbency advantage. Uh however, one guesses that they might win it, I. would have thought. But I think there's. various ways that you can win this.

pitch. If you, for example, and. he he wouldn't do it, I'm sure, but if. you. were an independent production company. and Jack Thorne said, "I want to make. Doctor Who and I'll make it with you.". then you may well make that pitch. If. you are an independent production. company and you see the importance of. all the incredible ancillary rights to. Doctor Who and the the kind of extended. universe and you have an incredible. pitch that includes lots of digital. media and has like a really, really. forward-thinking way of making Doctor. Who, you might win the pitch as well. Um.

you know, if you've got an incredible. piece of talent who has agreed to come. on board as Doctor Who and he's only. going to work with you, you might win. that pitch. But the process now is. production companies will. go into their bunkers. They will think, "How will we make Doctor Who? How do we. make it for that budget? Uh do we keep it in Cardiff? I think. it's It'd be impossible to win this. pitch and not keep it in Cardiff, by the. way, cuz it's such a big deal to to to. the area and to the production hub. there. So, I think it will stay exactly. where it is.

But they'll they'll be going away. All. their development people will be around. knocking up a huge document. It's it's. it's it's it's a funny one. If it's a if. it's BBC IP, if you're Bad Wolf and. you're making Doctor Who, it's not the. biggest money spinner you're going to. make cuz cuz it it doesn't belong to. you. But production companies these days. are far more um sort of companies for. hire since the world of streaming where. streaming always, you know, keeps keeps keeps the IP. For production. companies to stay afloat now, they have. to take some of these gigs where, you. know, they're you're not making as much. money as if you'd invented Doctor Who.

Um so, 50 companies will pitch. The BBC. will cut that down to four. They will be. invited in for extra pitches, you know, to absolutely kind of. go through every single detail of what. it is that they want to do, how they're. going to fund it, who the talent is. behind the camera, in front of the. camera, all all all of those things. And. the BBC will eventually choose. a winner in that process. But that, hopefully, is the thing that reassures. Doctor Who viewers that this is not. being put out to pasture. It's the exact.

opposite of that, which is the BBC see a. long future for it. They have to find a. way of future-proofing it, of making it. in a way that kind of that works for. them, works at the at the price that. works for them, that you know, hopefully retains the. integrity of that production base in. Cardiff. But it's an it's an enormously. positive move. And the idea with the um. because it's been slightly clouded by. the fact that that Christmas special was. canceled. But as I say, they were the. idea was they were going to put out to. tender in 2028. As soon as they said, "We're putting out for tender now." You. can't make the Christmas special because. the canon of the show would be affected.

so much by what they were about to do. with the whole you know, Chuchi Catwell. to Biddy Piper thing. It's just you. can't lay that on the next you know, there are companies out there who are. working on where they take the Doctor. Who universe. And if you're about to drop an enormous. Christmas shaped bomb in the middle of. that, it makes it makes that process. impossible for everybody. So that that's. why. >> It does It does. I mean, we'll get on to. the fandom in a minute. Um and which like all fandoms, I don't. want to completely homogenize it because.

it's very factional. We have to say why. this has happened to some degree. We. have to be honest, you know, the ratings. were not there. That's why Disney got. out of it cuz it didn't work for them. >> And not only that, the BBC cannot say. that. I mean, the fact that the BBC are. doing it at all tells you that the. ratings are there for the BBC. There's. sort. >> I agree. >> There's there's enough for them. >> is it for the BBC? Is it like when Kate. Phillips came on the show, she's the. chief content officer of the BBC, she. talked about what she you know, what she. dreams of for shows that they're the. those three Gs. It's basically like.

whole all different generations sitting. down and watching you something. together. And historic when I say. historically, I'm talking about from the. 2005 return that Russell. T. Davies triumphantly created, it was. that show and and but that was a. different you know, that's now 21 years. ago and that's a different totally. different linear era. And the difficulty. with you know, it's sitting on a. streaming service Disney Plus, but it's. also and obviously on iPlayer as well, but it's also is it still this thing. that people might sit down at you you.

5:50 or 6:30 or whatever it is on. Saturday evening to watch. I will say. that Chibnall Gatwa, I don't feel that. he understood that the sense of what. that role is. And it's a different role. to lots of things. It I I probably won't. be the last time I mention Bond. But it's a bit like being something like. James Bond. It's a different thing. It's. a responsibility. It's an ambassadorial. role to some degree. And I don't feel he. I first of all, he didn't ever in. interviews come across as.

particularly enjoying it. Maybe that's. just the personality type. I don't know. But you are something more than I'm just. playing a villain on TV. And you know, David Tennant obviously was a huge fan. >> Capaldi. >> Matt Smith who wasn't but was I mean, was extraordinary as a replacement. I. just think Matt Smith's. era on the show is brilliant. Um and. Peter Capaldi who is. was another, you know, huge Doctor Who. fan. All of those people understood that. they were essentially in you know, kind. of a leadership role. It's It's It is.

That's why I think it's almost like Bond. in some ways. It means something much. more and it's something connected to. something kind of bigger. So. Also, you know, you have this fandom. The fandom is as I said, I don't want to. homogenize it. You have some sort of. die-hard Whovians. You have some real. people who've been with it for decades. Um. and then. that you know, you'll have You also have. the kind of His Majesty's press who. think that you it's all a big woke. culture war. Russell T Davies would. probably say that he had rather lost.

elements of the fandom. Um and I think. that there For me, just reading the. statement he said, "For the record, there's no script. I never wrote it and. no actor was ever approached to play the. next Doctor. You may disagree. Fine. Sit. in that chair and wait to be proved. right. You'll be waiting a long time.". There's a little niggle in there for me. um as a statement. >> And he's And he said he's a good writer. >> He's I mean, I I literally I mean, I. love him. I literally love him. And the. only reason we're having any of this. conversation at all is because this show. fell away in 1989 and there were all.

sorts of people saying, "Who's going to. rescue us? You know, maybe Amblin maybe. there was a whole movement at the time. Maybe Steven Spielberg's company's going. to come in." Yeah, well, it didn't. happen, guys, okay? And this show that. we are even talking about now, K-. Russell T Davies was working at CBBC, I. think, in 1989. Um and he in 2005 he. brought it back in this absolutely. triumphant way and that's really the. reason why it's sort of in the mix in. the in this conversation. It's a big. beast, the culture around the show. >> Um I'd say it is it's very like being.

the England manager or being the. chairman of a football club. I mean, it. is it's. you it will end in failure, whoever you. are. At some point your exit will always. be England winning the Euros, always. >> In that last episode, there's so many. different things happening. There's like. the reality war is happening without. getting too into the absolute lore of it. if you don't watch it, but the reality. war is happening. An extraordinary thing has just happened. in terms of a regeneration. To me it is. slightly like oh my god, how do I come. back after No Time to Die if I'm doing. the next Bond film? But equally, wow,

>> Yeah. >> here's something that we're now talking. about in the similar terms to James. Bond. I think the fandom slightly have to. remember that what it had a very engaged. fandom and people had a big heritage. memory of it and hiding behind the sofas. and all those sort of things. It wasn't. this kind of global thing that people. and it's become its status has increased. enormously. since 2005 as a as a whole idea and um I. So, I think the fact that you're even. having these conversations of like, you. know, what who's so-and-so going to do.

with it? How will they deal with all. these things? I agree that there's quite a lot to take. on just in terms of the loose ends and. cliffhangers and, you know, things that have been laid. down as story points. That's the same. for whoever has to come in and Steven. Knight has to come in and write Bond. after No Time to Die and what they did. at the end of that, which was eccentric. Um and but, you know, you've got to. you've got to find a way through. >> Yeah. >> And we know that people brilliant. writers can find a way through these. things. And. >> that's the thing. It's interesting going. out to tender cuz what it actually means.

is you do spread the net out net out. quite wide. There isn't sort of some. sort of, you know, succession strategy. All these different companies will be. talking to different writers and. somewhere there will be. someone, you know, in the same way that, you know, the 1980s Doctor Who was so. special for Russell, there will be. people for whom the Russell T Davies. show was incredibly special when they. were growing up. There's like some young. writer who can take this on and do. something extraordinary with it. It has. to be an awful lot cheaper than the last. generation of it cuz they Disney money. is out. So, you have to find a way of.

making it cheaper, but you can do that. with. >> You can. >> Doctor Who. It's always been about. emotion and storyline rather than CGI. The BBC tender quite a lot of things. Uh, and I'll say this, there is not a. single show that they have tendered. which hasn't gone on to have multiple. series. afterwards. They've never done a tender. and gone, actually we're going to get. rid of this, or done a tender and they. do one more series and it disappears. Every tender the BBC has ever done is. for a show that they are absolutely. committed to and that they want to go. forward with. So, >> Yeah, it's not the long grass. >> It is. >> It is not the long grass. Even though. people think it is at the moment, it's.

not. >> really, really not. It may well be, just. to deal with the financial side of it, that some of these companies bring in. production partners [clears throat] and. bring in foreign money that the BBC. doesn't have. So, you know, there's. lots of ways of cutting your cloth. But, genuinely, it's a huge money spinner for the BBC. still, Doctor Who. The the kind of. universe um, around it. It doesn't punch. its weight in terms of ratings, you. know, on the overnights, but that's. becoming less and less and less. important. Uh, so, I I.

>> I I have to say something. People were. like, there was a lot of noise about the. Christmas special the last Christmas. special TV ratings, but something that. I'm sure we'll talk about more when we. come to Christmas is. is Christmas TV what it used to be. I. mean, across the board last year, they. had some extraordinary things the year. before with Gavin and Stacey and things. like that, but actually. Christmas TV is not Christmas TV. >> we have a folk memory of something that. doesn't exist anymore. I've got a couple. of ways of making it cheaper, by the. way, cuz as I say, lots of people will. will be will be pitching cuz this this.

tender process is only just started. So, there'll be lots of production. kind of crew sitting around this week. talking about how they land Doctor Who. Just ways of making it cheaper. This is. my best way. Ross Kemp as Doctor Who. and is the whole series of him sitting. around vaping while the TARDIS gets. fixed. >> I love it. >> It's like because he's just thinking. about what happens, you know, in. previous iterations of stuff, but he is. just just every now and again just going. is it. >> Does it take you inside the mind of. Kemp? >> Uh yeah, a little. Well, well, it takes. you inside the mind of of Doctor Who.

He's not playing He's not playing Ross. Kemp. >> Isn't he always? >> Well, well, maybe, but isn't Doctor Who. I I think anyway that's. >> Okay, so Ross Kemp sitting around vaping. while the TARDIS gets fixed. >> Yes. Junior Doctor Who, which is a just a. whole series where he's on strike and. catching up on his sleep. That feels doable. So, Torchwood, which. was Torchwood, which is as it we know is. an anagram of Doctor Who. So, I've got two other anagrams. Hoot. Crowd, which is. Doctor Who looks after an owl sanctuary. Or Owl Hot Cord, which is the doctor. injuring himself on hotel room kettles.

>> Okay, I love all of those. >> Not bad, is it? >> Absolutely amazing. Is that So, Ross. Kemp is your pick for the next doctor? >> I think I think the TARDIS being fixed. and the doctor having to just sort of go. to the betting shop and just sort of. wait around, pop into Aldi every now and. again. It's going to be interesting. You just. just the the kind of down time of Doctor. Who. What does he get up to? >> it. >> If he can't travel through the universe. >> With the right writer, I would watch it. >> Yeah, exactly. But it but genuinely and I've I've tried.

to talk to as many people. [clears throat] as I can. Everyone seems. very I absolutely see where where the. where the fandom is coming from. >> The fandom. >> [laughter]. >> are catastrophizing to some degree. >> And by the way, I would you would. because because you you I think it's. fair to say. >> And you to about it so much. It's. interesting with Ingrid having been in. Doctor Who. I quite often meet Doctor. Who fans and I to a person I've found. them to be just kind and thoughtful and. funny and the process is going to be. fascinating. Something really. interesting will come. Do you want to. know who the best. who the new Doctor Who should be?

>> Who? >> We've enjoyed very much Saturday Night. Live, the UK Saturday Night Live and. there's a absolute standout star from. that. Uh George Fouracres. >> to Yeah. >> Wouldn't he be amazing? All the best. Doctor Whos can really do comedy. You. talk about Matt Smith, Tennant, Capaldi. They can really do comedy but you could. stick them on a Shakespeare and they can. do that as well. And George Fouracres is. a great Shakespearean actor and a great. comic. Wouldn't he be amazing? >> Any recommendations, Marina? >> I have loved the new Olivia Rodrigo. album which is called You Seem Pretty. Sad for a Girl in Love and it's a whole.

arc from sort of falling I like this. sort of genre for a for an album. Because she became famous, you know, when she was 17 and I do think that's a. that's really difficult whether you can. grow as an artist and you can. sort of put She's absolutely the a big a. huge deal but she's sort of floating. above that and I think she's absolutely. brilliant. Robert Smith does a duet on. this and he and she obviously brought. him on stage at Glastonbury for her set. and that was and I mean some people just. sort of didn't get that but I think it's.

brilliant and you realize much It's more. developed that sort of influence on her. in this and it's they're just great. songs and I think it's really wonderful. that she's been able to sort of kick on. definitely definitely definitely to a. much higher level because it sometimes. at that age it must be quite hard. >> She's she's great. >> to become a sort of woman artist when. you got famous at 17. >> Uh and we live in a golden age of pop. music, I think. We really do. It's It's. hard at because we don't believe we do. because we don't all coalesce around to. the same songs in the same way that we. used to because we're not just sort of a.

one radio station culture. Um but the. songs are all out there. It's just It's. harder to find them sometimes when. you're slightly older like I am. Um I'll. recommend that um there's a new series. There's a new series of Four Seasons on. Netflix, the Tina Fey, Colman Domingo, uh and the rest of them. And it's just. It's very beautifully written, beautifully observed. And if you like. the first series, you'll love the second. series. If you've not seen the first. series of Four Seasons, I would strongly. recommend that as well. So, it's two. recommendations really, but the same. show. >> Okay. Well, we will be back on Thursday.

with a Q&A with Tom Hanks. Toy Story 5. is out um on Friday, and Woody is here. with us. But we're talking about lots of. It's really cool. We he We're talking. about quite a lot of other things as. well. And. >> And full disclosure, we've already done. the interview, and he's a dude, right? >> Oh my god, please. >> a dude. But we've asked your questions. as well. Um so, uh yeah, join us on Thursday for. for Tom Hanks. >> On Wednesday for our members, the bonus. episode, which is um I've talking to.

James Carville Story, and it's all about. capturing the zeitgeist. His company. does a lot of work on the zeitgeist and. where the zeitgeist is going next. It's. really, really interesting. It's a deep. dive. >> series between the two of you has been. absolutely fascinating. If people have. not listened to it, it's It's genuinely. brilliant. He's great. And you're great, but I knew that already. >> He's He's very, very interesting. Okay, so if you want to join for ad-free. listening and bonus episodes, it's. therestisentertainment.com. Otherwise, we'll see you on Thursday. [music]. >> See you on Thursday.

>> [music].