Euphoria, Harry Potter Drone Spies & OpenAI with Richard Osman & Marina Hyde

We are going to talk about the return. after, even by the standards of peak TV, quite a long hiatus, Euphoria. And Euphoria is one of those. shows that lots of people over here have. never seen. They can now see because of. HBO Max. And it launched the careers of. some of the biggest stars in the entire. world. And. there's beef. There's plenty of beef. >> So we felt that ticked a number of. boxes. >> Ben Folds, so we'll get there. >> beef and Ben Folds. >> Yeah. No, that's one of those like a pub. in Hoxton, isn't it? The beef and Ben. Folds actually exists.

>> Yeah, set up by four Eton venture. capitalists. Speaking of venture capitalists, we're. also going to talk about a podcast which. I've actually been listening to. Has not. got a big audience. Has just been sold. for low hundreds of millions of dollars. It's only been going 18 months. We'll. talk about what it is and who bought it. And how we could get our hands on low. hundreds of millions of dollars. Absolutely. And we're going to talk. about set security. There's all sorts of. trouble on the Harry Potter set with. drones kind of taking images of things. But the world of set security and script.

security and what companies do to to to. protect their IP before it comes out. >> Yeah. The Rest Is Entertainment is presented. by Octopus Energy. Admin tends to. require a little bit of encouragement. So submitting your meter reading now. earns you a spin and the prospect of. being quietly rewarded for it. Yeah, you. can you spin, you can win Octo points. which you can spend in the shop to pass. The shop to pass. I mean, fair play. >> Well, whoever refuses a wheel and the. opportunity to get something for.

nothing. >> Well, it's actually one of the mainstays. of game shows, wheels, because it has a. randomness to it. And I've spent like. weeks and weeks sitting just working out. the wheel just going, "Okay, that's the. next thousand, that'll be two thousand.". Then you work out how many bad squares. there are. By the way, there's no bad. squares on the Octopus one. But it's a. mesmerizing thing. >> addictive. I know. Watching it. >> to keep doing it. >> They slow it down slightly. And then you. watch the contestants like leaning in. like it's going to make a difference. And like lots of things with Octopus. Energy, they're very good at gamifying. lots of the sort of just normal stuff.

that you have to do with your energy. provider and getting a free spin and. winning Octopoints is a very good. example of that. With Octopus you submit. your meter reading, you get a spin and a. chance at Octopoints for money off your. bill or to spend in the most aptly named. Shoptopus. Euphoria is one of those zeitgei- well, when it started it's one of those. zeitgeist shows. that are kind of a long tradition of. kind of transgressive. shows about hey, this is what teenagers. are actually doing and.

what being a teenager is really like. They when they come out they instantly. sort of make all the other mainstream. shows look incredibly vanilla and kind. of twee and scripted. They're always darker and grittier which. always means there's lots of drugs and. sex. And it comes in the I mean I. suppose like the early ones like that. are things like Degrassi but then get. more into something like Skins or 13. Reasons Why. It's in the the tradition. of those shows that's And one of the. things about Euphoria first season is. massive but secondly it. launched the careers but it really. crystallized the careers of three.

friends of the podcast. >> Three three great friends of the. podcast. >> Uh who are Zendaya Yeah. um Sydney. Sweeney. >> Yeah. and Jacob Elordi. >> I mean come on. >> All of whom are now big stars. >> And the interesting thing there is when. it started out uh Zendaya she she was. well known the other two less well known. but now as this new season comes out. essentially it's a new season of a TV. show which was a a scrappy little. underdog and now it's the new season of. a TV show starring three of the biggest. stars in the entire world. What's what's. the basic premise behind Euphoria for.

for for people who know nothing about. it? >> Well, without I'll just do the very. basic so that you can get into the story. but you know at the very start when we. meet her she is centered on Zendaya. who's played a character called Rue. She's a drug addict and it sort of. follows her journey, her friendship. group, things with her family and I. won't say any more because otherwise. you're spoiling the stories but but but. But it's it's teens and their troubles. >> Teens and their troubles. >> Try in a in a in a gritty, honest, open. way. Euphoria is based on an Israeli.

series of the same name, and they got a. Sam Levinson, he created it for the US. and in large part it just directed a lot. of it. Suddenly directed a lot of the. new series. >> And wrote a lot of it. >> And wrote it and wrote it, yes. And it's. um He is the son of Barry Levinson who's. a sort of he's a sort of Hollywood. legacy person. Um Barry Levinson you. directed um Rain Man, um Good Morning, Vietnam, Bugsy, all sorts of things like. that. >> So weird in Hollywood to have father and. son in the same business. It's very. strange. >> Yeah. Yeah, who knew? >> Coincidence, isn't it? It broke a lot of. boundaries, um not always positive, I.

would say, cuz there was huge amount of. kind of nudity um and I and shock value. scenes. I remember I mean, I think. there's one you have to sign something. called a nude nudity waiver or nudity. rider when you're doing these scenes. >> rider. Yeah. It's a hell of a job. >> I know. And I think there's one episode. where there are I mean, there they were. literally in the hundreds these things. >> There's more more more riders than the. Grand National. >> Yeah, very many more and somehow less safe in. some ways. No, I'm joking. Not less. safe. It's very well run as a.

production, um. although there have always been rumors. of people feeling they were made to. either go too far or and some of the. cast have explicitly said, "Oh, I was. actually Sydney Sweeney started saying, you know, I started asking to for my. shirt to be put back on at a certain. point because it was unnecessary." So so. excited last night. Can I ask a question. cuz this I think is the interesting. thing about it cuz often you have these. shows that launch big stars. Why have. they all come. back to it would be my question. You got. three people there, Jacob Elordi, Sydney.

Sweeney, and Zendaya who could do. anything, literally anything, and yet. they've gone back to this show which. does have occasionally a reputation that. it's a. can be a difficult set to be on, and yet. they've all come back. Can that just be. money or is it do do they feel like oh. it's something. >> Okay, well, I think it's both to some. degree. I think it was such it it it was. such a groundbreaking show and it was. such a big sort of deal and the reason. why lots of those things have been. tolerated as it were. And you know, there'll be a lot of people who will. talk about Sam Levinson and I don't.

think he's the most particularly beloved. person. However, what it did is it. brought in an audience that HBO just. didn't have or hadn't seen or that they. did it brought in a whole new young very. engaged audience and people there's a. lot that can be forgiven for that. >> Yeah. The third season of anything is. where suddenly the money becomes very. different. If you sign on and you do. and you'll sign on and you'll sign on. for a a season of something and your. next season will effectively be on on. the same terms or maybe there's a slight.

uplift, but it's kind of built into the. initial contract. >> a two-season contract, yeah. The third. one is where they get you your pay days. So but these guys have big pay days. anyway. So I think there is partly some. of that. But I also think that. I think they probably think it's iconic. and they probably do feel they owe it. something. And either HBO. or Sam Levinson himself has been very. persuasive. I mean, you might want to do. lots of other things on HBO. You might. you know, you might want to There's lots.

of reasons why you'd come back for. season three. >> And maybe they get on with each other. and they have happy memories of doing. it. >> of them do. Some of them don't. The red. carpet for this show was a Okay, great. >> Zendaya and Sydney Sweeney, you're not. going to see those two in a picture. The. red carpet Just reading about the red. carpet made me laugh so much cuz I when. you're reading between the lines and you. know how it works, you're thinking. I can't actually believe what military. position this must have been. planned by that all of that individual. teams. So you've got the the show was.

supposed to start at 7:00 as in. everyone's supposed to be in their seat. and they were supposed to have the. screening. I don't think Zendaya turned. up till 8:00 which is the ultimate power. move. Like everyone else was long in. their seats. There are two shots of some. of them, but there's a it's supposed to be a big. big beef between Zendaya and Sydney. Sweeney. Who knows if that's true, but. they're suddenly not in any pictures. together. And when you look at it all, you can see, "Oh, okay. So, those two. like each other. Those two, yeah." And. there were so many angles and plot lines. just on that and who will arrive and in. what order. It made a sort of Paris.

Fashion Show where eventually, you know, Rihanna will turn up like 2 hours later. and then the show can start. Do they all. like Jacob Elordi though? I I haven't. heard anything specifically about him, I. must say. I haven't heard anything. specifically about him. >> about the you know, so when when this. started, Sydney Sweeney had been in a. few things, but not really this was this. was her proper big break. Zendaya, as we. said, had had been Disney Club and had. done Greatest Showman. So, she was just. breaking through, but I think she's. talked about Euphoria and said, "I found. I was in a place where I could go and I. could only really go in one direction.

and it was a direction I didn't want to. go in." And so, she jumped at the chance. of doing this. But Jacob Elordi was I. mean, he was a sort of Australian. heartthrob and he'd been in a couple of. things, but he was out in Hollywood. trying to make it. He was just about to. go home. I think his visa was about to. run out. He was helping a friend doing a. self do a self tape for Euphoria. And then he said, "I wonder if I can. send in my own. self tape for this." So, did and just. before he was about to go back to. Australia, gets this part. And you know, now is an Oscar nominee. So, it was. really really the making of him.

Something else would have made him. because he's terrific, but this was the. show that that really saw him through. The Skins comparison you made is very. very interesting because occasionally a. show will come along that will make a. generation of actors. And this really. really did in in in the States. particularly with. those three. But Skins in the UK, which. as you said is is a is a similar. proposition, which is this is what teens. are really like and suddenly everything. else about teens looks ridiculous. And on that show, you had Dev Patel who. was a non-actor before that. You know,

so that that that that was his first. thing. You had Daniel Kaluuya who had. actually done all sorts of things, but. was writing on Skins as well. You had. Nicholas Hoult who had been in About a. Boy, but you know, was a was a child. actor. >> and was a so nerdy little boy in that. and then was like Tony. It was like the. social everything. Yeah. >> Jack O'Connell was in it again and made. an absolute generation of actors. So. anything where. you have to cast teens to try and be. teens seems to be that seems to be the. sweet spot for for creating a a.

generation of of Oscar nominees. But. they do grow up and the gap but they've. done a time jump for obvious reasons. because there has been there has been a. time jump. But even the sort of indulgence of peak. TV where you had three-year gaps between. seasons, actually the last season of. Euphoria wrapped shooting, not. transmission, but wrapped shooting. almost five years ago. And certain key. actors have died. Eric Dane um Yeah, um Angus Cloud died.

again. He was someone he he was street. auditioned. Angus Cloud, which is. something that you know, um they tried. to do for this in fact Angus Cloud's. part was originally they they'd found. someone on the street who they thought. could play that part. Yeah, he passed. away. So it's there's there's a lot of. behind-the-scenes drama as well that. ties into all of this. Tell me a bit. about Sam Levinson then because you. know, I I I keep reading I keep reading. like allusions to this being a troubled. set and we know what he went on to do. next which we've talked about before.

which was. >> I'll have to talk about it within the. context because I think this is quite. interesting. So Sam Levinson, I think. you know, he. as I say he's sort of son of Holly. Hollywood royalty. I think he. effectively kind of dropped out of. normal not completely out of normal. education, but sort of sat around. watching a lot of movies. Sam Levinson I. said I had had a childhood where he'd. been through various you know, substance abuse issues and so he was. writing that sort of thing anyway. And in a meeting someone said oh we got. this show Euphoria from Israel, would. you like to adapt it?

And he said yes and then essentially. just wrote the thing that he wanted to. do. But that's the way that TV works. sometimes. >> Yeah. So, when Euphoria premiered and. came out and it was shocking and it was. it struck a chord completely and it. brought in this audience. >> real. Yeah, and it brings in an audience. that they don't have. And that is. something that you can't really put a. price on because there were regular. stories of things that would come out of. the set and say it was difficult. You. could see what was up there on the. screen, which was that it trod a very. fine line. I mean, I I find it pretty.

bleak actually and I don't know and most. a lot of the time I just think this is. actually. I think this is actually quite. exploitative. Do you know stories about Sam Levinson. that you would never be able to say in. public? I think lots of people have. heard lots of stories about Sam Levinson. that they can't necessarily say in. public. I as again, I would say that. he's not necessarily well-loved, Richard. Okay. I will say that look at. what's on the screen. A lot of it's out. there on the screen and you can decide. whether that comes from a place of, you. know,

love and understanding or whether it. comes from a place that seeks shock. value at almost all cost. >> It's often the case that if you are. looking at a scene to to go, okay, step. outside of this, step behind the camera, think about that morning, think about. all of those actors, and think about how. they were asked to do what they're going. to do, how they felt during it, and how. they felt after it, and then ask. yourself whether you would be. comfortable. doing that. And the actors themselves. would say in interviews, yeah, I know. I've pushed back on certain things. I.

think because if if if your even your. actors are saying, I pushed back on this and even Sydney. Sweeney is saying, I'm I'm actually. asked if I could put my shirt back on in. a few scenes. There's something about. they are aware that there's a perception. that they're being exploited and they. don't want to show that they are they. want to say, I'm I own this. >> I own this. I do this on purpose. I. mean, I am empowered. >> new season, she's trying to be an. OnlyFans um. girl and there's a lot of I mean, there's. she's done done of as a dog at certain. points. I I don't know. You know, I'm.

sure she's a strong independent woman. And anyway, so. but Sam Levinson, and I think it's fair. to say from a lot of many many people. would tell you that he's not. particularly well-loved. However, because he brought in this audience, he. then wanted to do this other thing, which was The Idol, which he did with. The Weeknd. That's the one that stars. Lily-Rose Depp and The Weeknd. And I'm. so as a sort of about a cult thing. I. have to say. if that was set out to satirize it will. not satirize or to critique exploitation.

and cultish behavior. Um. I think it was the thing it was trying. to critique. >> Yeah. Um if you've listened to this. podcast before, you may well have had me. say that episode three of that is. potentially the worst episode of. television I've ever seen. Um but whatever. So, I don't think. people within the cast were thrilled. By. the way, as I say The people in the. Euphoria cast. >> Yeah, because is sort of in the same. universe. Sort of, yeah. And also, if. they are going to do season three and. wrap up this story that they maybe feel. they owe something to. I mean, Zendaya's. done like June challenges, the drama,

lots of things like that. Sydney. Sweeney's done Anyone but You since. Yeah. since it wrapped. Yeah. The. Housemaid, Immaculate. Okay, I'm Madame. Web, but you know, it's a movie. Um Jacob Elordi's done Saltburn, Frankenstein, Wuthering Heights. The So, what you're saying is we've got the. three of them who've done this. incredible show that they owe an awful. lot to. And before the next one comes. out, they're all massive superstars. And. in the meantime, the director and writer. of this show has done a massive dump. right in the middle of Hollywood.

Yeah, and I think everyone involved in. that was just hoping it would they would. just get out of live of that. >> It didn't It didn't unlike a massive. dump, it did not hang around for long, did it? It It didn't. Um. but I you know, you can find it all. You. can still go and watch it. Um but I but. during. >> don't. But you can. But anyway, the So, during that time, all of those people. became not just, you know, they didn't. just have good roles. They became proper. bankable, you can open a movie movie. stars.

Um and so, it's very, very odd to see. people of that that heft, I suppose, as. in people who can get money for films. But um which somehow is still. the benchmark, even though, you know, we. might say that television's been much. more successful or much more reliably. successful in recent years. But if you. can get money and you can open a film, then you are still huge. >> Yeah. >> Um and to see all of those those. particularly those three um on the red. carpet is odd now, because it seems. almost like it's top heavy. Like, how. how can all these people be in this.

show? Cuz each one of those is now a. lead in whatever they're in. It sort of. happened all around us. So, we do we. know it already that that um television, uh especially for a a younger generation. of actors, has. equal, if not more, prestige than. movies. And this is an object case in it. is that the three of them are happy to. co-star in this thing on television, because they're not thinking, "I could. be making a movie instead." They're. thinking, "No, this is an enormous. worldwide. >> I'm not sure I think that. I actually. think, isn't it interesting that they.

could all be leading TV series, but. maybe they want Don't forget, TV is a. massive commitment, as this more than. anything shows. I think it's the. commitment that they are less interested. in. Are you really going to sign away. potentially seven seasons of something. or seven year or however many years. rather than doing lots of high profile, potentially great film projects. And I. think that's still why. they it's interesting that none of these. particularly have been doing TV series. They've been all doing films, because.

not just because it remains perhaps. undeservedly the prestige thing, but. because actually you don't have to. commit to seven years or whatever and. wait around while someone goes and makes. The Idol. You're you're you're much more. master of your own destiny. And I. wouldn't want to imply that, by the way, they weren't because I think Casey. Bloys, who's the CEO of HBO, stood up. and said, "You know, thank you all for. being here, and I've just been shouted. at so many times over the last few years. by your agents and managers and. publicists, you know, because getting to.

just try and get the schedule to make it. happen." But I think that's why do you. really want to commit to something that. lasts for years and years and years, or. do you want to get in and out in 4. months plus promotion? >> Well, that's why this is perfect. This. is like a movie to them. Isn't it? This. is This is all the advantages of the. scale of television with none of the. disadvantages, which is you're going to. be tied up for years and years and. years. This is a This is a one-and-done. cuz they've already done the first two. seasons. So, this one they can just go. in, do a thing they know is going to. absolutely explode everywhere around the. world, and get out and back into the.

$10 million movie. >> also wonder whether it will explode. because it will get masses of traction. Um and I but I wonder whether. people will think. oh gosh, that was such a sort of COVID. era, pre you know, that sort of thing. And somehow now when I look at it, I just see all I'm I'm not quite sure. what what what the purpose of some of. this shock value stuff is. It really. felt much clearer in earlier seasons. that. not always, by the way, but I thought.

most of the shocking stuff landed and. you understood the substance beneath it, and you understood why it was in the. narrative. The danger when you have this much time. has passed and things have moved on a. bit, and actually the culture's moved on. is. >> And everyone involved has got so much. money. Do you actually think this is. quite exploitative, or does every single. thing for me will need to land without. there being a big backlash as to, you. know, why is this any of this happening? Would you recommend season 1 to our. podcast listeners? >> I I would recommend anything, but don't. watch with your kids.

>> No, it's not a kid show. Or I should say. don't watch with your parents. Yes. Depending on your age. >> Yeah. Just don't watch, yeah. Fifth. biggest show in the in the history of. HBO as well. It's interesting, as you. say, HBO had these huge hits, but they. did not have a a really, really young. skewing hit. Uh and this was this was. absolutely that. Biggest show in HBO. history, of course, Game of Thrones by. by quite some way. And then uh and then. The Last of Us, funnily enough. And. there's slightly different ways of. measuring what what shows are big. But. you know, cuz The Sopranos is number. four, this is number five, Succession is. number six, um Sex and the City number.

seven. They've had some good shows, HBO, to be fair, haven't they? White Lotus. must be creeping up there. >> is number nine as well, which of course. is what Sydney Sweeney sort of went on. >> Yes. to do next. It's the first time. lots of people there who haven't seen. Euphoria would have seen Sydney Sweeney. Yes. Okay, let's go for a break, shall. we? And after that, we're going to talk. about this insane, genuinely insane podcast story. This episode is brought to you by. Bumble. Now, there's a modern phenomenon.

when someone says they're on the apps. But what they actually mean is they. downloaded them, opened them once, and. then immediately felt tired. >> So, technically on the apps, but nowhere. near them. Making and updating a dating. profile can be weirdly exhausting. Too. many decisions, too much pressure to. come across as the best version of. yourself. >> Well, that's where Bumble comes in. Instead of asking people to produce a. personality from scratch, they give you. personalized guidance on how to help. show the authentic you. >> And not in a bossy way, more in a you're. already interesting, but let's point the. camera in the right direction. And the.

prompts are better, too. Less I like. travel, more I almost missed the train. because I was petting a dog. Something. someone else can respond to and spark. conversations from. Because when a. profile actually reflects someone's. personality, conversations don't feel. like small talk. They flow and they feel. like they're going somewhere. So, download Bumble today, show more of the. real you, and see why it tends to be the. app people hear about from friends. I. like the idea of someone missing a train. cuz they were petting a dog. >> Well, it's involving, isn't it? I'm. engrossed.

Welcome back, everybody. Now, we are. going to talk about the sale of a. podcast. It It started 18 months ago, less than 18 months ago, actually. Uh. it's called TBPN. By chance, I have been. listening to it for the last 6 months. I'll say what it is. It's a It's two. finance bros, well, technology finance. bros, originally the technology. brothers, TB, called John Coogan and. Jordy Hayes. A year ago, they rebranded. it to TBPN, and they start they started. >> Which is so it's now Technology Business.

Programming Network. >> Rather than Tech Bros, which was what. they were at the start. >> brothers, which they were at the start. A year ago, only, they started this with. no outside investment, which is going to. become relevant. Um and they started. doing a 3-hour daily live stream, which. is cut down, which I don't, you know, watch, but I I watch the 30-minute. podcast it's cut down into. But, I'm so. not the typical audience. >> It's a daily show, and it it covers the. business world, and particularly the. tech business world. So, it covers a lot. of AI, it covers all of the movements in.

that industry. And there are a lot of. movements in that industry. >> For obvious reasons, last week, they did. stuff about space and space travel. companies, and all of that sort of. stuff. And I would say, to describe. them, I would say they're 100% they are. techno-optimists. They are sort of good-looking in a kind. of benign Patrick Bateman style way. Anyway, we're talking about them because. this podcast that started less than 18. months ago. >> 70,000 viewers. And to put 70,000 into. context, there are there are podcasts in.

this country that you'll get a million. listens an episode. I mean, that's not. that's not beyond the realms of but, you. know, for the stuff in the in in the top. 10. This is getting 70,000, and that's. in America. And America is. a big market. >> It averages 50,000 viewers per episode. per per live stream. Has been bought by. OpenAI, a company they cover all the. time, for a sum in the low hundreds of. millions of dollars. And I think you. would definitely expect a significant. percentage of that to be in OpenAI stock. options, which we know that it's almost.

a trillion-dollar company, and it's. probably may It's going to float. may go. to IPO later this year. By the way, it's. a it's a good product. I'll I'll say. that. I mean it depends on your view of. them and the world and that, but they. put it together nicely. And I don't know. about it. The reason I started listening. to it is because I don't really know. about this world. Exactly. They're a. good hang. Yeah. Okay, and that is. crucial. They are a good You know, you. don't mind spending time with them and. >> But they have turned like a text message. from one to the other in October 2024. into let's say 200 million dollars.

minimum. And and if it's an open AI. stock, then with just 70,000. viewers {slash} listeners. Less than 70. I That is their peak, I think. 11 people. work on this show, by the way. 11. And. SportsCenter is a US show where they. There's a desk. >> on ESPN. And they Yeah, it's on ESPN and. they and they they talk about sports. news, okay. It's It's like Sky Sports. News would be a would would would be how. I'd see it. >> Yeah, exactly. But they wanted it to be. like that for tech. The jump to always. on as in they have made it daily and.

they've made as much of it avai-. available as they can sort of humanly. do. So, they do a 3-hour live stream, but they now cut it down to a 30-minute. episode that you can which is a bit I. listen to. There's an amazing part very. early on in this story and I think it's. is is useful for all and any creators is. is these two guys had done a couple of. episodes and sent them off to a friend. who was in the business. and this is any advice you got at all. and his one piece of advice and this is. such a great piece of advice for anyone. is. you need to take this 100 times more. seriously. Yeah. Which isn't be 100.

times more serious on air, you got to be. yourself, but you've got to take the. business of what you're doing and your. idea 100 times more seriously and they. said we never looked back from that. moment and I think that's. unbelievably great creative advice. >> Always. And some people say, "Oh, it's. like sort of CNBC, like a a rolling news. channel's business desk, but for Gen Z.". Um and they've got sort of little. details they do. They've got a good sort. of studio. They've you know, they've got. a gong that they bang and They film it. properly, it's lit properly, they dress.

properly. I mean, it's to all intents. and purposes it looks broadcast. >> television. quality, yeah. It's a desk. with two guys. As I say, why did I. listen to it? They had an easy and. appealing style, they covered an area I. just feel like. feels like it's the defining issue of. our times and I don't really know that. much about it and they were good to hang. out with. Um but I am not the typical. audience and I am absolutely none of the. value in that audience. The point is. Silicon Valley is obsessed with it. Um. and you know, if you look at their. sponsors, it's absolutely wild. I think.

they've got 5 million sponsors 5 million. dollars off sponsors in the first year. This year they're on track for 30. million dollars. They're all sort of. things like Ramp which is charge cards, Plaid which is a fintech thing, Google. Gemini, the New York Stock Exchange. I. mean, it's wild, you know? But the point. about that audience, while small, is. that it is incredibly influence dense, I. suppose. So it's venture capitalists, it's engineers, it's all the people who. work in the businesses about which. they're talking. And as I say, they do. primarily talk about AI, not not. exclusively. And they've had guests, you.

know, Sam Altman's been on it. Um. Zuckerberg's been on it. >> yeah. Satya Nadella's been on it, the. Microsoft CEO. So if I So if I if I'm. John Coogan and Jordy Hayes, I absolutely see. what I get out of the deal of somebody. giving me 200 million dollars. I see I. see my upside. As you say, look, it's. it's it's on it's on course to have. revenue of 30 million dollars this year, but that's not a valuation where you. would pay 200 million for it. So Sam. Altman must be getting some extra value.

out of his 200 million dollars. Well, this is the most interesting part of all. of this and that's probably why we're. talking about it. It's because this head. of strategy at OpenAI said, you know, when this deal was announced, um I've. been thinking about the future of how we. communicate at OpenAI and one thing. that's become clear is that the standard. communications playbook just doesn't. apply to us. We're not a typical. company. Sure. Uh and yeah, then they also said, "We We. have With the mission of bringing AGI to. the world, comes a responsibility to. help create a space for a real.

constructive conversation about the. changes AI creates.". >> By the way, in my opinion, the best way. to have a a real constructive. conversation about something is to pay. somebody $200 to have that conversation. Well, it's interesting, isn't it? Because until this point, whilst they. obviously are incredibly well connected, they're both angel investors, tech angel. investors, they have a lot of, you know, These two guys are even before this. started. They're not They weren't poor. They weren't starving. They They've been. involved, I think John Coogan had been. involved in Soylent, that meal. replacement thing. >> They've both been around for a few years.

or three or four years. >> patches company, you know. >> Yes, called Lucy. Yeah. Uh they are They. are very well connected. They've done. very well from the sales anyway. That's. the reason people are watching them is. they know what they're talking about. They're not just a couple of dudes. turning up and saying nonsense. Well, they are, but nonsense that. they understand. Yes. Yeah. So, they've. said, "Oh, it This will not interfere. with our editorial output.". >> Sure. Okay. Sure. And Sam And Sam Altman. says, "I don't expect them to go any. easier on us." So, you've just paid them. $200.

and you don't expect them to go any. easier on you. Listen, okay. I get I get. it. >> Okay. They're trying to say this isn't. compromising because we are not a news. organization. We would prefer other. people went and broke their scoop. somewhere else, and then we got people. on our show to talk about context. >> said yes. They They've said, "Look, we're not journalists. We are literally. We are personalities talking about this. stuff." Yeah. Yeah. Okay, but you now. are owned by OpenAI. So, whatever. But, what has happened there is that. OpenAI feel that they need I suppose, if.

you're a nearly a trillion-dollar. company, and you're thinking, "What is my. communication strategy? We didn't need. one, now we do need one." I mean, $200. million is nothing to get some to get. And if you're giving it in partly in. stock or whatever, To. to get people to push your story all the. time. And they as I said, they are. techno-optimists. They're not sitting. there like me thinking, "Oh my god, I. mean Sam Altman this week only this. weekend he uh he was the subject of a. New Yorker article by Ronan Farrow last.

week. He this weekend said that Sam. Altman said a Molotov cocktail had been. thrown at his house. Obviously that is. abysmal. Like uh you know, I deplore. anything like that. But um saying that. it was effectively saying it was because. of this New Yorker article. Okay, do. people do that because of New Yorker? I. don't know. Um and what's the Venn diagram? Yeah, I. mean yeah. Molotov cocktails throwers. and people who find New Yorker cartoons. funny. So I I don't know. Is it just I. think it might just be me. So um and then he wrote this enormously.

long post over the weekend at about 3:00. in the morning. And I honestly I read. this post. Go and look at it. And I just. thought that's why I love doing this. podcast with you because I know Sam. Altman has written an enormously long. post. At 3:00 a.m. I've already read it. before. Yeah. And I just read it and I just thought I. I literally can't believe this mega. liability is in charge of this. civilization-altering. altering destroying technology. I don't. know. It's so mad that we're allowing. him to be this person. But anyway, yes, they do need a narrative. But um.

what a lot of what people talk about um. this this word has been revived. Have. you heard this? Like people keep talking. about motes in the tech space now. This. is like a a phrase that a word that. originally Warren Buffett came up with. And it's the thing that gives your. company a sustainable competitive. advantage. It's like hard to replicate. in other ways, blah blah, all this sort. of thing. In the revived era of this. word recently people are saying, "Oh, it. it's taste and actually that's the thing. that makes that sets my company apart.". A lot of people are saying that. distribution is the mote now. It's the.

new mote and it's this thing that if you. can control your story and this would be. a really good way of doing it. It. doesn't matter like you have some huge. audience. So. it's that they are influence dense. All. the important people are listening to. your thing and it doesn't matter that, you know, not millions of people like. Rogan are listening to Rogan or. something like that. It's the people who. are listening to this and you're. speaking via these people directly to. them. So, that is. being able to sort of communicate in. that way is very interesting. And.

there has been a whole sort of rush to. acquire podcast. Even Goalhanger has. taken investment from The Chernin Group. What they're trying to buy into more and. more is networks of podcasts or podcasts. that have some specific Yeah. um. reach that is beyond oh one person. stands or falls on this, you know. What. they want is the to buy into is the is. is community and this the idea that. they've got very, very, very engaged. However, it doesn't have to be enormous, but if they're significant, that.

community is becoming the most desirable. asset. >> Yeah, and this is and and this is the. second wave of of of podcast booms. There was a podcast boom um. 4 5 years ago, which was wow, what's. this new industry? This people. everyone's listening to audio. This is. amazing. And so there was a lot of money. spent and a lot of money lost at that. point. Uh and there was some thinking. afoot that maybe the multiples you could. get for for a podcast company might have. disappeared. However, I think since the. pivot where now most podcasts are. watched. Yeah. And people have come to.

understand, certainly people in the in. the in the. venture capitalist world have come to. understand that this is the new. television that just by default everyone. is suddenly watching this stuff. >> But somehow it's more intimate than and. more engaged than television ever was. >> So, there is now suddenly a second much, much, much bigger boom because what. they're buying into is the future of. television. They were buying into the.

future of audio and making a small bet. on that. They're now buying into the. future of television and making a huge. bet on that. >> They think they can sell the audience. things. That's what ultimately they. want. They want to sell a very engaged. community things. Yeah. And you know, that we've the key thing is is not scale. anymore, it's depth. So, it's not can. you reach 5 million people, it's can you. reach 70,000 people who really count. Exactly. But you know, can can we get a. maximum value out of that? Funny enough, this TBN thing, I think slightly is set. aside from that narrative. So, that. narrative there are lots of podcast.

deals going on at the moment for the. reason I'm talking about, which is. suddenly you're owning these brands that. people are watching and people don't. mind being sold to by all that kind of. stuff. Whereas TBN, I think what it. comes down to, as you say, so we're very. used to AI now. It's got to the point. where as a technology. it no longer can trade off its novelty. It can no longer trade off I'm going to. be seeing this chat GPT thing. You can. put this into it. You know, that's all. gone and it is now understood as a more. mature industry. And so, it does have to. slightly control its narrative. And I.

think there's an understanding OpenAI. certainly. that the narrative is not going great. for them culturally, that there are. doubts about AI. I suspect it's going. very well in business terms, but. culturally it's not going great. And so, it'd be nice to do something about that. But I think it's a it's a really. age like an old-fashioned version of. like when your. you know, local butcher would go and buy. a northern football club because he. loves the club and he knows he's not. going to make money out of it, but he.

just wants to be involved. I think that. Sam Altman just loved this show and he. thought what would it take to get it? And the money was there. And he doesn't. know that 200 million is a lot of money. He doesn't know that. What do you think. he's worth than Elon? He's worth than. Elon and Zuckerberg. I just I just think. he's becoming my worst one. >> Can I It's so competitively fought the. worst Zuckerberg and he's it. Can I say. something about Sam Altman? Yeah. I like. the guy. I like the guy. I like his technology. I. think that AI. is a force for good. I think um Sam.

I think if you're listening, I think. that Marina is a nicer. I get it. There's people like that. We have to. jettison them at some point. >> out if you want to get bought by him. >> But uh, you know, I just think Gary. Lineker and I both be both love what it. is that you do. That's what I think now. I do I do I do I do I listen I I I bow. to your uh No, he's I think he's a bad. hat. He's a bad hat. Yeah. Uh, anyway, this. is like us being bought by a consortium. of lots I don't know someone or I don't.

know one person is like being bought by. Netflix, just owned by Netflix. And I. find it it interesting that they can say. that they can be. But but who but also. slightly who cares if you started. something. 18 months ago and open AI you've just. got $200 million plus of open AI stock. >> And also, I suspect that they will be. able to say what they want because the. second that, you know, they say. something bad and you know, Sam Altman. responds, what are you going to do? Cuz. Sam Altman loses control of the. narrative again. You know, that's the. point. I think they're in a very very. strong position these guys cuz firstly,

they are, as you say, tech evangelists. anyway. You know, they are they they. they are not naturally inclined to to. um, disparage AI or open AI. So that's. but that's, you know, if they they they'd have to be. going out of their way to do it. Uh, and yeah, the the consequences for. open AI if they were seen to censor them. would be very very damaging. I think my. God, these guys and as I say, it would. be an it would be an even better story. if these guys weren't already rich. I. get that. If they were like a couple of. plucky upstarts who suddenly had $200.

million for something that they built 18. months ago. But my God, they must be uh, high-fiving each other. One thing I. would say is that I wonder if it's part. of a sort of general shift that which. worries me for sure, that people don't. really care quite so much about. journalism or whatever and people being. held to account. They kind of just want. someone who feels inside of me and is a. good hang. You know, it's interesting. the way that audiences are going and you. look at what's happening with short form. video and you look at like the decline. of people reading print articles for.

instance. And when I talk about print. articles, I didn't mean in the. newspaper. I mean on newspaper websites. or whatever and that they're shifting. much more towards things coming to them. via video that are not held to the same. journalistic standards remotely. I mean. they're not wouldn't even claim to be. journalists. >> Because it's opinion and people prefer. opinion to journalism. Always have done, always will do and we've had enough. gatekeepers over the years that actually. that that there has always been. journalism and. large scale certainly in this country. and in the states and now those.

gatekeepers don't have control over. anymore. If you want to know about sport. or if you want to know about technology. or if you want to know about politics, you can and lots of people now do just. listen to two people giving their. opinion on it and you hope that. somewhere in the middle that those. people. are good actors. And those people have you know Hold. themselves to a certain ethical standard. and try and be fair. But yeah. You it's. just hope. You just hope. >> There's no industry code. Yeah, exactly. Now, shall we finish talking about.

security? The the strange world of TV. and film set and script security and and. the breaches thereof. Yes and this is. sort of. in the news because some. drone shots have been obtained by a. drone operator and I know they should. should release a song called drone. operator. Anyway, that's. by the by. That would be good. And the. drone operator got shots that they said. were were of the new Harry Potter.

show which is filming at Leavesden apart. from the bits that are on location, put. them on the internet and Warner Brothers. have now reacted in a way which we'll. get to. To put it in context, there is. so much high-end film and TV now shot in. the UK that I and I actually think that. we have either would just about to. overtake or we have overtaken. the amount of studio space there is is. more than there is in Hollywood now in. the UK which is I know it's incredible. and they're booked out for a long time. >> the way, an absolute testament to the to. the the craft people in the UK and just.

the the incredible crew that you get. anytime you want to do I listen I know. there's And their lovely failure to to. unionize in in the same way um because. they have much more attractive labor. laws and They do. But also they're. unbelievably good at their job. But it's. a great success story and we have a huge. amount of it being made here and um. anyway this drone incursion happened at. Leavesden a place I know what. very well because I've shot various. things there and they have a huge. collection of sound stages. And like all. studios they're kind of this Dijon.

mustard color. They've currently got. more than 20 some of them are 50,000. square foot they're really enormous. It's been constantly expanding ever. since I went there which I think must. have been in 2018. You constantly go. there You think it's because of you? No. you know no but you you're shocked if. you go you can have six months away and. they've built another load of stuff. The. backlot is enormous. That alone is about. I think 100 acres or something you know. you can that's where you would build the. backlot it's interesting and relevant to. the story cuz it's where you build a. backlot is the bit that's not covered. So say you've got these big a kind of.

like almost like corrugated iron. buildings. Those are the stages and you. can't see what's happening in there for. obvious reasons they've got a roof. But. if you need to build um I don't know um. some arena from House of the Dragon or. you need to build Privet Drive. >> Over here there's there's there's a. Quidditch stadium which I think the. dragon took a shot of which is sort of. two halves of a Quidditch stadium and. then enormous blue screens for you know. filling in in in in post. So the yes or. what the drone operator said he can tell. he's not a television fan because he. identified a large amount of this House.

of the Dragon set as being Harry Potter. set and then also said the blue screens. you can see they're trying to hide it. It's like no mate that's not what blue. screens are for but anyway That drone. operator is an idiot. He well he. actually is and we'll get to it. Oh. really? I'm not going to there so. horrible the people yeah I'll get to. this. Um so but anyway, it is amazing but. there's incredibly tight security on. the set on the lot Leavesden. You know, House of the Dragon had a code. name on the which I don't think I better. say because I I. even within the studio.

>> Rent-a-ghost. If you hear the word. rent-a-ghost and. >> rent-a-ghost I wish it was. I was. thinking about you and rent-a-ghost at. the weekend for some reason. Um anyway, it had a it had a code name um and you. can't really see I remember one time. when I was finishing a day on I think it. was on on Avenue 5 which is a show that. I worked on there and Will Smith the. writer and I came out and we you. couldn't even tell what had been built. because they're so secure even on the. set but it was an exterior set and it. was actually slightly raining and so the. mist was coming off all the lights and. therefore you could see in the darkness.

they were just starting a night shoot. what it was and we were like, "Oh my. god, it's Winterfell." Cuz they were. still making Game of Thrones and and. there is a sort of thing it is amazing. The sets are just beyond. You try and do. as much on the studio property as you. ever can because it's the most secure. You'll have seen if you look in like. paparazzi pictures of there's a scene of. Dumbledore walking across the beach. obviously they can't build a beach so. they've had to go to a real beach and do. that. and then you are open to paparazzi to. locals to you can't control it so you. try and do as much as possible on the.

back lot and they've clearly built. Privet Drive they've done all these. sorts of things. Diagon Alley is there. Diagon Alley, yeah. But you are. terrified of drones. I think even when. we were doing the franchise I think we. we considered definitely having a plot. about a sort of drone terror you know. like that one at Gatwick where there. wasn't actually a drone. Yeah. I can't. remember but and and we didn't do it but. people think about drones all the time. because the thing is you in the UK under. UK aviation law you do not own the. airspace above whatever you have. So. these drone operators can can you can. ask them to stop filming but the person.

who shot this. is a guy called DJ Audits. Well, his. real name is Nigel Dix. No way. And he. is an auditor. Now, I'll tell you what. an auditor does. Auditors are drone. operators who use their drones to. supposedly inspect and monitor on. or report on assets or compliance. things, you know, railways, construction. sites, kind of seeing are people obeying. health and safety. That's a slightly. That's the theory anyway. That's the. legitimate part of.

>> like but like vigilante version? >> That's No, that's. That's the proper version of that job. >> That's a job. Okay. There is a sort of. vigilante version which is YouTube. auditors. Audit YouTubers, as they call. themselves. >> Audit YouTubers. Oh my god, they film. police stations, private property, other. buildings, and it's all for content. And. what they do is that they film it and. they try and get a security guard to. come up to them and say, "Sorry, what. are you doing?" As someone, you know, did it at Leeds and saying, "I'm afraid you're. you're not allowed. Could you please.

take the drone?" And they then have a. massive argument which is their content. Um and they're deliberately provocative. They wait to be challenged and they you. need the argument or you won't go viral. And actually, you know, you're talking. to people who are just really ordinary. security guards. They have them at all. sorts of different sites. They're not. And people have now had to be trained. everywhere. By the way, I spoke to. someone at a railway station the other. day cuz I was just missed my train and. like an outlying railway station and. then one of these guys was doing it. The. guard had to say, "I'm sorry, could you". and this guy tried to argue with him.

The guard was so polite. And I said to. the guard afterwards, "What was all that. about?" Cuz I like for half an hour I. was waiting for my train and he said, "These are auditors. We have them all. the time. We're trained now to be. really, really polite. cuz they just want the argument and then. they put you on the internet. You don't. want to be on the internet. Anyway, >> If someone said to me at a party they're. an auditor, I would I would have had a. very different view before this. conversation. So, that is good to know. But now, what if an actual auditor tells. me they're an auditor? And I'll be. going, "Do you know what what you do is. a disgrace.". Yeah, it's so It does feel to me very.

much It feels like men's work, if I can. euphemize. Do you know any women auditors? It's. very To me, it's very, you know, like. that meme. There. >> won't be a second date, but at least she. now understands the finer points of UK. aviation law. And I just I it's just a. very, very It's man's work. Debate me. You've never No, listen. I've got I'm. literally thinking thinking of a friend. of mine's husband who who who loves his. drone. He is not an auditor. He's a very. nice man, but you. >> don't operate Yeah. And I think actually. lots of women love their drones, but. doing this particular thing with your.

drone it seems to me anyway. >> auditing via drone. So, Warner Brothers. know this is a recurring problem and. that obviously for years this series is. just going to be as I say that you do as. much as possible as you can on the. stages that you Leavesden and on the lot. because you have got. But you you can sometimes actually the. law is quite interesting. You can. sometimes not over Leavesden, but you. could say it's illegal First of all, it's illegal to You can detect a drone, but it's illegal to jam it or shoot it. down, which is obviously quite tempting. Although they did do that on an Avengers.

movie. Samuel L. Jackson says he was on. an an Avengers set when when the when. when the drone. uh came into the airspace and it was. shot down. >> have had to do something about that. afterwards, I'm afraid, because of civil. aviation law. They will have to bring in. the auditors' auditor. The Yeah. You can. block the airspace temporarily in some. places and you can say that you're doing. that for safety or whatever it is, but. you can't permanently. enforce a no-fly zone over Leavesden. That's never going to happen. They know. these people that there's a legal. precedent for them being allowed. So, it's quite interesting what Warner. Brothers have done if they've gone to.

court about this now, but they've gone a. different way cuz a lot of people try to. do it the way like this is trespass. You're not going to get anywhere on. trespass. What they've said is that he. is infringing their. intellectual property rights. That's. what I was wondering cuz it feels like a. bit like you might be. Yes, and that is. probably the best way. He's immediately. kind of counter counter counter filed on. in some way saying, you know, I've got. the right to do this, but I actually. think this is the best counter file. Yeah. Well, they know their rights. Do you I.

mean, these guys really know their. rights. Um and they think they're involved in. rights based work but they're not. they're just involved in you know the. content mill. I mean it's all content. mills isn't it leads into content mill. but it's but in America they've got. totally different rules but how the on. our in our country when so much stuff is. being made here whether they will be. able to get some sort of president and. say you can't ever fly drone over a. studio. I think in the very first. Thursday Murder Club book I intimated. that um Elizabeth had been behind the. the drone at Gatwick. Yes that's true.

Yes of course I remember that now. Just. just in an aside. God there's so many. great articles about that and it was. just like a sort of was it was it a mass. hysteria did it happen at all? >> Yeah it wasn't anything right? >> think it was there was a really good. Guardian article about a long read about. it that's really that was you know. sometime after the event and yeah that. is very interesting but anyway And that. by the way is why I think sometimes they. should be a channel that just repeats. the news from five years ago because it. everything into perspective and also you. just go oh yeah the drone oh what. happened with that? Also there's been so. much that it's quite hard to catch up on.

it. Maybe they should do box sets of it. It's a really really good idea. Um so. that's drones we will talk maybe another. time we'll talk about script security. which is insane. You you never get a. script now that doesn't have your name. plastered all over it that doesn't have. a watermark just so at any time cuz you. know Game of Thrones got leaked there's. all sorts of things that are leaked but. I'll just say now that that's that's. also the whole security around scripts. also goes back to Samuel L. Jackson on. the very first Avengers movie when his. assistant printed out copy of the script. for Sam uh accidentally printed out two.

copies left one of them on the um. printer a production assistant came. got it sold it made a lot of money and. the whole first Avengers um script was. was um was leaked and now oh my god when. Ingrid get paid when gets pages through. sometimes there are scripts where you. cannot see anyone else's scenes like. nothing everything is redacted apart. from the scene that you're doing uh and. just every single show now the security. around scripts they'll be fake scripts. they'll be scripts with fake scenes so.

so if if that gets leaked they know. exactly who leaked it. It's like Colleen. Rooney is in charge of. >> Yeah. To to as as a decoy thing. And. yes, when you first get to read the. script to see whether they're going to. offer you the part it will expire within. an hour. So you can have a quick look. and then it's kind of burnt itself after. reading. Yeah, and it's Samuel L. Jackson's assistant's fault. Yeah. Any. recommendations this week? I have been. away as you know last week and I went. with my most beloved family many of whom. are listeners to this podcast and we.

played so much of a game called The. Chameleon. which is a version of impostor. It's so. good. I absolutely loved it. You know. you one person's the impostor and you've. got to work it all out but it comes in. cards. It is really I thoroughly. recommend. >> The Chameleon? >> The Chameleon. And it's just like a. little card game. >> Yeah, it's a card game. I'll recommend. Bait which is the Riz Ahmed's this con. show where there's rumors that Riz Ahmed. is going to be James Bond and what. happens the back of it is so it's really.

interestingly written it's really. interestingly shot. Guz and Riz are. fantastic together. Anyway, it's it's. it's much darker than you'd think Yeah. but it really but it's but the jokes are. very very very funny. Yeah, I. I thought. Himesh Patel who I know was in. the franchise he's just turned up as. well. He's so awful in a in a good way. He's. as he acts someone who is so awful. But. yeah, I. I'm really really enjoying Bait. >> on Prime, right? That is on Amazon.

Prime, yeah. And the interesting thing. there of course is because Amazon Prime. now own the James Bond franchise. Riz Ahmed is able to make a show which. talks about James Bond which talks about. him becoming James Bond which you know. which he uses that It's got much more. Bond adjacent content in the forthcoming. years. >> Yes, exactly. But if this is their first. bit of Bond adjacent content then it is. surprisingly good. Right. We'll be back. on Thursday with a Q&A and on Friday. with the next part of our Spice Girls. series. Um.

Geri may not stay with the band. I'm No. >> Spoiler. Listen, so long as Zayn stays in One. Direction, I'm happy. >> fine. Yeah. Um and if you want to join. for ad-free listening and bonus. episodes, it's. therestisentertainment.com. Otherwise, see you on Thursday. >> on Thursday.