David Walliams: The Reckoning?

Hello and welcome to this episode of the. rest is entertainment with me Marina. Hyde. >> and me Richard Osman. >> Uh now this is a special episode um in. response to the ITN and Guardian. investigation into David Williams which. was able to be reported um on Tuesday. The investigation accuses Williams who. denies everything of inappropriate and. exploitative behavior with a large. number of young women. They there I.

think they did a hundred interviews. there 30 different accounts. Um and they. alleged that he used his power and his. fame to groom young women and teenage. girls at least two as young as 15. And. as I say he denies ever acting. inappropriately, predatorily or. criminally. The rest is entertainment is presented. by Octopus Energy. Now, cinema is often. very mean to some very cute characters. >> Yeah, you could be a muppet, you could. be a puppet, you could be a cartoon, but.

in this world, a prison is still a. prison. And a heist is still a heist. >> Bad things can happen to you. Something. very bad happens to Paddington. Paddington. I know this is real. It's. real life. Richard Paddington goes to. prison in Paddington, too. is framed for. stealing a pop-up book and somehow he's. going to have to rise through that. prison hierarchy as so many have had to. before him. No, he manages to win over. everybody with his kindness, his. marmalade. It's, you know, it reminds me. a lot of the Shawjang redemption. >> Yes, it's very very similar. >> Elements fortunately missing.

>> Yeah, I would watch uh the Muppets Shaw. Shank Redemption. I would watch the. Muppet Shaw Shank Redemption. >> I'd watch them I'd watch the Muppets and. anything. >> I would watch the Muppets Anything, but. The Muppets Shaw Shank Redemption would. be a great movie. >> Yeah. Now, none of these films ever. really has to choose between the joke. and the stakes, >> which rather suits Constantine, which is. Octopus Energy's enormous pink fluffy. mascot. Energy is about as real world as. it gets, yet somehow he doesn't feel. remotely out of place. >> I think I'm going to start with a little. bit of the background into this as to.

how we got here because it's part of the. story to some degree. >> Yeah. And like lots of people listening, we've seen the documentary, we've read. the articles, and you the first thing. you have to do is is pay tribute to the. bravery of the women who've spoken up. because because I mean I mean just the. process you have to go through to do. that. >> The fear of it at the age of which they. alleged it happened to them. I think. it's extraordinary and you carry it with. you and they're very clear. When I was. writing about it, I thought it was so. part of the sort of journey of womanhood. is that you don't have the words often.

when the thing is happening. Um and I do. think there has been a certain amount of. consciousness raised since things like. me too. And they did have words and they. said it was it was a power imbalance. It. was grooming. It was abuse. Um they are. all allegations as I say but I think. that they were so brave to speak in it. particularly in these circumstances. because the sort of legal onslaught has. been more extreme than many I can. remember. >> And it won't just be a legal onslaught. It'll be a social media onslaught. It's. everything you have to constantly read. like.

>> brands victims. you have to constantly. read people saying it's not true and you. think. >> and Brand victims yeah suffered death. threats even during the trial. So I. think the bravery of these women is is. absolutely extraordinary and I pay. tribute to them. >> And you picked out a line from one of. them who said I'm doing this for my. younger self and also for for f you know. people in the future. >> I know she said I'm doing this to. protect my younger self. And I found. that so heartbreaking because of of. course you can't and you can't redeem. the time. But she then said and I'm.

doing it to protect people in the. future. >> Yeah. And this of course just absolutely. right off the back of the Russell Brown. case as well. He's currently in prison. as we know. Uh but we're back here. talking about it once more. And I think. you know there are there are useful. things to be said about this documentary. and this case and what can be done in. the future and what should have been. done in the past. >> Yes. Um so by way of background some. stories had run in fact I think about. Christmas the turn of the year on this.

podcast we covered the stories about. Harper Collins which was his publisher. who have now dropped him. um that that. there stories came out that he'd behaved. inappropriate with young women from the. publishers, that there was a sort of set. of rules put in place, that people. couldn't go to his house on their own, that interns didn't go, all sorts of. things. We found out a bit more about. that in the Guardian and the ITN. investigation. We were aware that there. were legal fights to gag publication. I. think it was very, very possible via.

what's called jigsaw identification to. work out who was being talked about. And. certainly if you went online you could. find it within seconds. Not everyone did. but you could. Um you know the theme. park at Alton Towers that was Williams. World or something closed down. There. were all sorts of things that made. people feel that they knew who this was. >> But David Williams' attempts to fight. these allegations seeing the light of. day were pretty extreme in the sense. that he wrote to media outlets and he. said if it's published or broadcast at.

the earliest opportunity I will kill. myself. and he has twice attempted um to. take his own life. There are he's been. in detained in secure clinical. facilities. There's every reason to. believe that this is a sort of credible. threat. Um but the judge, Mr. Justice. Nicholan, ruled that he couldn't and I. think that's right. I have to want I. want to be extremely careful while. discussing this because we know that the. risk is real. Um and I think the risk is. real with David Williams. Um, but I do.

not believe that you can or should use. incorporate suicidal ideiation into our. legal system as a precedent for why. something can't be reported at all. >> Especially, it's something that you want. to be reported because it could lead to. further investigations and further. accusations and allow more people to. speak up. It feels it feels like an. avenue you don't want to go down. >> Absolutely. We don't have anonymity for. people accused of sexual crimes for the. reason that it's very difficult for.

people to come forward and the naming of. people helps others to come forward even. if they deny those. I would like to say. at the top that this is not entirely. analogist to the brand investigation. So. when I talk about them I'm talking about. them in slightly different ways. But the. Russell Brand investigation began with. the Sunday Times. Um and you and it the. people who came forward who performed. the basis of the criminal case came. forward because of that investigation. As we said with brand it's not the case. that everybody knew um and I think that.

it's that is important and I definitely. want to say some more about the idea. that people particularly women are now. still protecting people. It that is far. more complicated than people on social. media think and I will talk at length. about that later. Can I add one caveat. though because we we talked about. Brandon the thing that you know um. everyone knew it was an open secret etc. And I talked about how he he was. occasionally on the fringes of the of. the industry. This is a different thing. because while is right at the heart of. the industry could not be more at the. heart of the comedy industry, the. entertainment industry. Some 10 series.

of a big ITV show. He's had a huge BBC. show. He absolutely was in the belly of. the beast. And if you want to see. >> the limitations of the systems in place. in television, this is this really. really is the place to start. I think. Russell Brand. >> absolutely could swim around anything. and did so and you know he he would have. been much harder to catch earlier. I. think here there are big questions to. answer about duty of care and about.

reporting and things which I'll talk. about at the end because I think there's. ideas we can make that a lot better. But. this is absolutely on the television. industry. >> Yes. I also want to say that whilst. there are similarities with the brand. investigation, they are not entirely. analogous. As I say, Russell Brandt has. been convicted of one count of rape and. three counters of sexual assault. It's. not clear that some of this is criminal. or would meet the bar for criminal.

behavior. But the allegation that he. sexually assaulted or had sexual contact. with a 15year-old when he was in his 30s. is a criminal allegation and we will see. how it plays out. One of the things that. I think is interesting in terms of how. we got here and again the the. investigation by the Guardian and ITN. has been absolutely meticulous. It is so. hard to do these. I cannot stress the. difficulty of convincing people to come. forward, of people who have buried. things who don't want to talk about.

them. Just the complete difficulty of it. >> and the insane bravery of the women who. did come forward. >> I mean, absolutely extraordinary. I. mean, I've written, God, I feel like. I've been writing and talking about this. all week. >> I wrote on my Substack about this on at. marinahide.com and I wrote extensively. about these women. >> I would point people towards that cuz. it's it was a terrific piece and I think. written like immediately after you've. seen it. So, a very instant reaction. And all women know that have stories. Every woman has got a story, many. stories probably of when they found. themselves on a sliding scale of things.

that they didn't particularly want to. happen. >> Yeah, I speak to Ingred about it a lot. cuz she came up in comedy sort of at. that time and in drama and it it's you. know there are a huge amount of stories. a huge amount of stories. >> Yes. And it's very and I you know I. always hope for people to have that. story end in a lucky escape but very. often it doesn't. I think in terms of. and as an adversary in terms of someone. you're trying to investigate how David.

Williams operated is very very. significant because it was an extreme. form of kind of legal warfare. And one. thing I want to go back to since we're. excavating things is the Fremantle case. Now this is when he was picked up on. microphone making sort of horrible. comments between takes about Britain's. Got Talent contestants. Now I think two. interesting things happened. >> Those comments were leaked. >> of course. >> they dropped him.

>> Yeah. >> And rather than leave that which you. might have thought you are a hugely well. bestselling author perhaps why would you. wish to excavate it? He sued them in the. high court in 2023 and he said, "Oh, you. constantly transcribed." He clearly. thought that they had leaked it. deliberately. So eventually they settled. amicably. I can assure you that would. not have been at all amicable on either. side. >> So that's you would imagine a financial. settlement. >> a financial settlement. But I think. there were two very important runes to.

read there. The first was that we now we. knew how he operated legally. He has. sent a message with that to everybody. that he is incredibly latigious and. he'll sue over anything even when it's. best left alone. I think that was best. left alone but he and we also did we. also know that people. were trying to get rid of him. >> Operatives I don't know who and I don't. know at what level who leaked those. comments. They were trying to get rid. someone at some level in Britain's Got. Talent was trying to get rid of him.

>> Agreed. And I'm going to talk later. about by the way we shouldn't have to. read the runes. No, >> I want to talk about ways in which you. can just get rid of people without. having to because exactly someone felt. perhaps this is the only option. >> yes. >> I have left to me so I'm going to do. this. >> perhaps a pirick victory but his success. in that legal action meant that people. knew and people really knew about David. Williams that he sued a lot um and in. journalism when you know someone's like. that and you know there are all sorts of. people like that Trump is like that.

Trump who has been as I have to keep. reminding people accused of sexual. misconduct by 27 women and I don't see. that written in every news story about. him even though he's the leader of the. free world but there we go so maybe. there are lots of open secrets although. of course the president denies all the. allegations but you will have heard lots. of people then also say why didn't. people report on this sooner again we're. hearing this as I say it's very. difficult [sighs] I think the you know. the Guardian got lots of um heat for.

their um relationship with Russell Brown. when I honestly don't believe people. there thought he was a sexual predator. Maybe there was plenty they should they. shouldn't have overlooked, but I um I. honestly don't think they thought he was. a sexual predator when they got him into. their news conference. >> Um but there were many people over years. at the Sunday Times who said to me, "Yeah, I mean, we'd love to look at. David Williams, but it's a little bit. complicated." And the reason that it's a. little bit complicated is because he was. the sort of star asset at Harper. Collins, which is another of Robert.

Murdoch's media properties. And I think. it's interesting when as part of the. investigation they do talk to people at. Harper Collins, the Guardian and ITN um. at Harper Collins had a sexual. relationship with one junior employee. There was someone left with a five. figure sum and another NDA want to talk. more about NDAs. >> Yes, please. >> And she said, not this woman, but the. woman who contributed the documentary. said, well, he was responsible for. Harper Collins hitting their targets. every year. Because of that, nothing. ever happened. And then she said we were.

getting massive amounts of income. And. there are certain tentpole authors or. temple media properties who. >> are so important to places. >> that you can see why they instead of. thinking we don't want anything more to. do with this. They supposedly according. to reports created a system. No one. turns to his house or is in pairs. Yeah. I think once you're creating a system. you got a big problem on your house. Can. I say one of the big heroes of this. story is Kate Elton who took over at.

Harper Collins and so they knew about. Williams. They'd had this investigation. Again, like so often these things, nothing illegal, but certainly stuff. that probably you don't want your staff. being um uh exposed to. Uh and she came. in and the first thing she did was. saying, "We we're not having him in this. company anymore. We're getting rid of. his back list. We're getting rid of his. front list." And as you say, it's a huge. financial hit for them. But she took. over as the first thing she did. did it. immediately. And that I think is an. incredibly positive thing to do because.

again, you can't you're not saying I'm. going to I'm going to report you to the. police because what are the police going. to do? Said nothing illegal has. happened. But what you can do is say I. don't want that culture in my company. I. employ a lot of people. I want them to. be protected and I don't feel. comfortable and safe having that person. around them. And as a someone who runs a. company like she now does, you are. allowed to do that. And that's what she. did. uh and it hadn't been done for uh. the years beforehand. So I think uh Kate. Elton deserves a huge amount of credit.

>> I remember writing about Harvey. Weinstein and saying that the exact. moment at which anti-W Weinstein. coverage is sort of making more than. Weinstein movies will be the point at. which something you know the system. properly changes and it did with him. >> Yeah. >> Um there was certainly an argument that. David Williams and Russell Brand were. not the kind of spin money spinners that. they had been before for people. still. making a lot a lot of money for Harper. College. A lot of money. >> and and also you know the back list as.

well. So it's all gone. They just said. this is this is not for us in any way. We don't we do not want any members of. our staff seeing us making money from. this franchise and from this brand. >> I would like to talk about the lawyers. because we don't talk about the lawyers. very much and as I try to talk about. them on this podcast that they are a. huge part of all of this. We actually. saw in this documentary, which is quite. interesting, um, a copy of the lawyer's. letter to a teenage girl um, that David.

Wyman allegedly made persistent advances. to. She was 18. He was 44 at the time, and it contained some very questionable. words, I think, which I'm going to. quote. They wrote, >> good belief, I thought. >> They wrote to her, "Let us be absolutely. clear. You are at a significant risk of. committing a serious civil offense. Are. you? should you disclose to the press or. any third party private information or. purported private information concerning. our client and then said that he could. issue a legal claim against you. Now.

>> for what? >> Yeah. If your job is sending letters. like this to teenage girls, do have a. look in the mirror because I honestly. don't think that the law is meant to be. used like that. But the level of which. to which it has been in this case is. extraordinary. And but yeah, by the way, if your job involves writing letters. like that to more than one teenage got. on, I'm not saying they did because we. saw one, but if there are lawyers out. there who have sent letters like that to. more than one person, really take a look. at yourself. >> Yes. And I feel that the legal class.

just sort of always manages to take a. backseat in this. We talked in our brand. episode about how the brand's KC had. said to Rosin, I I mean in a in a place. where everybody could hear, you. it. I hope you're happy with yourself. it about about this. It's like, well, from where I'm sitting, you should. take the L. >> and give her her congratulations today. But it's very very difficult to. understand the level of lawfare or legal. threat used in these cases. And I think.

ordinary people don't understand it. because why would you? Why on earth. would you it's all in silence. You he. managed to keep it secret till this very. very bitter end. And it's it involves. years of dealing with it. And that's why. it takes so long to investigate these. things because you are dealing with. people who are very scared. I remember. in things like the Harvey Weinstein. thing, eventually someone broke their. NDA and we've talked, we did a whole. item, a long thing on NDAs because this. document that has was a nothing at one.

point and is now used all over the. television industry, all over. journalism, all over media, and is. constantly used. >> And is an is an NDA something you would. be compensated for? They say you sign. this and we'll give you money or is it. it doesn't have any actual sort of legal. >> power? It's not always there are many. different forms of them. Um and. sometimes people are issued with them to. make them be silent and when they don't. necessarily have any power themselves. Sometimes people are given a payoff when. they leave after something perhaps bad.

happened to them in the media. And but. unfortunately in order to have the. payoff they must they must sign the NDA. And there are all sorts of people who. are bound by these things. And there are. all sorts of people by the way who would. regard themselves on the side of right. who have made people sign these. And I'm. not it's not just sort of absolutely. venal lawyers going after teenage girls. It's all sorts of different people at. different levels in the media who get. people to sign this. But we don't know. lots of these things and it's difficult. to know whether you know whether they. these young girls or and and young women.

and they became older women and thought. well actually I am going to say. something. >> but the journalist as well the. journalist when they're talking to. witnesses or possible witnesses would be. aware that someone had signed an NDA and. they and suddenly if there's a sea of. NDAs that would tell its own story. >> It might you you probably wouldn't be. aware you they can exist completely in. the dark. No, I think there are many you. I think you mostly aren't aware and I'm. asked to sign them for every possible. thing now. You know, would you like to. we'd like you to could you contribute to.

a documentary um but you need to sign an. NDA? Fine. We'd like you to have a look. at this new book that's coming out. because it's so important. You'd have to. sign an NDA. You know, all of these sort. of things. It's all the time. And this. document goes around everywhere. And I. think, you know, we talked about. celebrities getting people who they. randomly have sex with to sign an NDA. >> and pre-ex if certain Hollywood stories. >> Yes, I think that's true. And then you. look at stories like the allegations. against Neil Gaiman, the author, and he. made absolutely massive use of lawyers.

and NDAs. It doesn't always nefarious. behavior, but the fact that they are so. ubiquitous means that all sorts of. little silences are being locked down. all the time. Um, and it's quite. difficult to join those ones up as a. result. Um, I know you want to talk. about duty of care, but should we go. talk about that after the break? >> A little break and then we'll talk about. that. Yeah, absolutely.

[music]. >> Welcome back everybody. Now the business. of trying to stop this situation. happening is not again at least quite so. much as it seems to. >> Yeah. So I was going to say a series of. things and then funny enough yesterday I. saw that brilliant Lucy Bowmont. interview with Kathy Newman. Yeah. And. if you haven't seen it you must watch. it. We will put a link to it. She's.

talking about being made aware of a. situation by a production member on a. show that Williams had worked on who was. then working with her on the next show. uh and she watch the interview it's. terrific but all the way through and in. the documentary as well in the. documentary there's some very telling. things at the end where Freemantle who. made Britain's Got Talent said we were. not made aware of any allegations psycho. said we were not made aware of. >> that's Simon Cow. >> Simon Cow's company who originated the. format we were not made aware of any uh. allegations and ITV said it's we don't. make the show it's made by Freemantle.

and so that's it's it's it's sort of. their business. >> it's very interesting that all three. companies I'm. have never received a complaint about. David Williams. >> Well, that's what I want to talk about. because obviously people were. complaining about him because there's. people on this documentary who were. complaining about him. The point is, and. Lucy makes this point brilliantly, they. did not know where to complain. She says. at one point there there's no HR here. And the truth is there is HR, but if you. work on any TV production, you'll do. loads and loads of safeguarding stuff.

like you know, you'll do those tests. about building in the workplace and you. sort of tick a box. There is not, you. can keep looking down, you'll see. somewhere that you could complain if. there's an issue, but it is not front. and center. Now, my view, and we talked. about it after the Greg Wallace thing, is everybody who works on a show, you. have a mandatory because we said. sometimes you work on shows for six. weeks, eight weeks, and then you move on. to the next thing. And that's that's one. of the weird things about television is. you're often moving between from place. to place and job to job. So, actually,

sometimes you just leave stuff behind. And if you haven't complained at the. time, when are you going to do it? You. have a mandatory offboarding interview. with HR where you talk about your. experiences on that show. And if you. have anything to say about anyone senior. on the show, whether that's talent or. producers or commissioners or whatever. it is, that is the place to say it. It. can be anonymized. So, if you want to. make an official complaint, do so. Most. people don't really want to for for the. myriad reasons that we understand. >> But if you want to make an anonymized. complaint, and it might just be a red. flag. Again, Lucy Bowmont says, "All of.

these things I'm being told, they're not. necessarily illegal. You know, I'm told. that he had teenage girls in his. dressing room. I mean, may maybe he's. doing a nice thing." You know, she very. careful to say, "I don't know that this. is illegal." What it definitely is is a. possible red flag. So, at the end of. every single show, you do that. You have. these anonymized accounts and those. things are shared across companies and. they're shared across the industry and. they're shared with channels. >> Absolutely. And if across those eight. years there are four anonymized. complaints and there is a slight pattern. which you can guarantee there would have.

been in this case then again you can't. force anyone to go to the police and you. wouldn't want to force anyone to go to. the police. We know how difficult that. is. But what you can say is we are not. going to employ this person on our. production. You are allowed to do that. We have a duty of care to the people who. work for us and also we have basic moral. standards. There are enough red flags. here that we do not want to work with. this [clears throat] person. Now that's. a very very basic way of doing that. Just saying look there's a series of. Daniel Sloths the comedian said look one. rumor two rumors three rumors okay.

that's with we're sort of taking that. that's a that's someone we're going to. avoid. So you take that uh weight of. evidence. What it also means of course. if you off if you have to do these. offboarding interviews and by the way. and Lucy Bart makes this point 98% of. those interviews would be. >> completely fine. >> Everything's fine but it doesn't matter. about the 98%. matters about the 2%. because also within that net you will. catch other things and you will also. because someone is being asked to have. that interview they might become. emboldened to not anonymize it and they.

might become emboldened to say actually. given you are a big company uh is there. any way that you can help me with this. complaint but it has to be here is the. person that you talk to here is the. person you send something to there are. anonymous ways of doing it but you build. >> because I've worked on I've on HBO. because they are always absolutely. everywhere signs saying here is an. anonymous line that you can call if you. having trouble. Yeah. I mean that that. that is obviously it's an American.

company but these are shows here and. there are signs everywhere saying you. can call in call this number you can be. completely anonymous you can make a. complaint if you're experiencing. behavior that you shouldn't in the. workplace. >> Yeah and Lucy B makes the point. brilliantly. She says firstly it's it's. tough to complain who wants to. Secondly, well, I didn't see anything. illegal. There's nothing I can't go to. the police. But what you can do is just. put it on record. And a number of times, I know lots of people in our industry. and lots of WhatsApp chats,

>> you you put things on record. You you. will write letters. you will say things. if you if if you've seen things in the. hope that and Lucy talks again about. something that happened to her and she. complained about somebody and she said I. knew that it wasn't going to be a police. matter but what I also knew is if that. was on record and this same person came. on record again in 2 years time in 5. years time in 10 years time then that's. you know suddenly it's a pattern of. behavior and that I think would be a. fairly simple thing to do I'm very very. comfortable to talk to anyone in the. industry or the government who would who.

would like help with doing that. But. that feels to me cuz we talked in the. brand thing, there was definitively a. bizarre culture in the 1990s, right? We. talked about the lad lad culture and led. up culture. That culture is back. And. more than that, the media has. splintered. So, we're not just talking. about the HR ITV and BBC and the and and. the TV production companies signing up, the podcast companies, the YouTube. companies, the content creator. companies, >> HR policers. >> Yeah, exactly. But every everybody needs. to sign up. And it's just a thing. It's.

just a record. it's just a record and if. things build up, if enough red flags. build up then a you can start thinking. about is this something I should give to. the Guardian because they can look into. it in more detail or B is it just. something where I can say like Kate. Elton did there are too many things here. I don't want you working for my company. you know and that would save an awful. lot of people. >> 100% there should think there should be. a centralized system but because what. exists currently is a a sort of. unofficial one and I I would say one.

thing I would really like to say to all. the men who I've seen and it's always. men who will contact you on social media. after verdicts like brand or after David. Williams and say and who are you. protecting now. Okay, I'm going to find. it really hard not to swear in this. situation but I'm going to really really. try. Okay, you know nothing. You do not. know how it works. Okay, I have lost. count of how many investigations. I have contributed to, I have tried to.

help with it's over over the past two. years alone. I mean, I'm just thinking. of well, I can think of one very notable. court case that ended ended resulted in. a conviction. I can think of talking to. executives about people they were. thinking of hiring. I you don't know. because it's just something you've. heard, but you say, "Let me tell you. this thing I heard. let me tell you and. that makes a difference and if you don't. know the person you think okay how can I. help who was in that writer's room who. was an exact on that show who do I know.

who might know something you are. constantly putting people in touch with. other people either people in the. industry trying to hire people or. journalists trying to investigate these. things and listen you do not care what. title you they work for I would very. happily help the Sunday Times when I. worked at the Guardian everyone would. and it's a lot of women will help. anybody in this situ situation. You're. just trying to think, I know how hard it. is for you to get this over the line. I. will tell you anything I know. I will. try and put you and if I know nothing, which is almost always the case because.

you don't happen to have worked with. these people, you'll think, well, who. could I put you in touch with? You are. doing it all the time. Okay? And what I. would say to those people saying that. about the entertainment industry, what. are you doing in your industry? What? Because please do not tell me that this. is an entertainment specific problem. What about the new person who turned up. in your company a few months ago and was. bubbly and full of the joys of spring. and then she went quiet after a while. and in the end she doesn't work there. anymore. What happened there? Did you. try and find out? It is happening all.

over the place. The other thing I would. say to you is if you like these stories. and if you think these stories are. valuable and they have value in our. society, then please consider if you can. paying for journalism. I cannot explain. how expensive it is to do this. If you. talk to someone like Rosarin who's. basically spent years of her life doing. the brand investigation, it takes years. It takes so much manpower. It takes a. huge amount of resources and you know. grit and sticking with it and but it. costs a lot of money and people who will.

happily pay you know £3 something for a. cup of coffee. Think about whether you. wish to contribute to media outlets who. have done these investigations because. as I say this is not these are not. police investigations. They did not. start as police investigations. They. started with journalists, with ITN, with. Channel 4 Dispatches, with the Guardian, with the Sunday Times, and there will be. other people doing their own. investigations. >> What I find sort of exhausting is trying. to explain to people that. you can't, first of all, they can't.

investigate everything, everyone. It's. very, very hard. You got to pick your. sort of people that you worry might be. the worst predators and do those because. you're getting calls about this stuff. all the time. And it's not just women. doing this. By the way, the Guardians. investigation editor Paul Lewis is. brilliant. You know, I remember talking. to him about this and him saying, "We. are having so much stuff come in. How. how can you possibly investigate it. all?" And you you do your best and if. you think someone else could find a. happier birth or you think actually I. think someone else is also looking into. this, then you can push them between. titles. There isn't some sort of turf.

war about that happening at all. People. want to get these things over the line, but it is incredibly expensive and it is. incredibly painstaking. But it can lead. to. fresh air being brought to subjects and. sometimes to convictions. And if you. value it and if you think it has value. in our society, then please consider. paying for journalism because this is. how it is funded. Both of these things. have come from journalism. But I do. think, you know, going forward it it it. felt like there was a period of time I.

funny enough I was working with Joe. Wilkinson yesterday and I just I thought. how lovely would be working with that. generation of comics. How lovely. >> Did you work with David Williams? >> I worked with David. My first ever job. was with Well, it was David Williams at. the time. He literally just left. university and and we worked on a. computer game show and then we did a. pilot for Hatrick with um Dominic. Diamond hosting and David Williams and. Simon Peg were the talent in that. Uh so. yeah, I knew him when he was 21 years. old. We fell out, not for any exciting. reasons, shortly afterwards and didn't. work with him again. But I I absolutely,

of course, have followed his career and. what he's done and seen where he's been. in the heart of British TV. And I do. think it's hard for any man who worked. in television in the 1990s and the 2000s. to not feel like they failed, to not. feel blind, to not feel some sense of. shame about what has happened and about. it's not a sin of commission. It's a sin. of omission and not understanding you. need to create an environment in which. everybody felt safe. I think it was just. not something that you know when you're.

beginning a career and you got all this. ambition and this that or the other and. you don't really understand what. industry is cuz you just started in it. but then you look back and you think you. know if you'd started this stuff then if. you'd really started understanding what. was going on then and and understood. that the c that culture that '90s latty. culture was not some kind of natural. culture. It was a slightly weird. aberration. Uh so yeah, it's it's it's. tough looking back and it's horrific. It's unremittingly grim. I'm delighted.

to still be around at a time when people. are, you know, being found out and. people uh you know are either going to. uh prison in Russell Brown's case or at. least being sort of uh exposed in the. case of Williams. And there will be more. to come I suspect from that generation. as well. But it is uh it's a reckoning. and it's a wakeup call and it is. something that TV and TV has got a so. much better in the last 10 years and. that's good. Uh and representation of. women on screen made a huge difference.

in that. Uh and this funnily enough it's. always an exec level. It's actually been. a fairly kind of female sort of, you. know, you know, it's more more women in. it than most industries, but it would be. lovely going forward to not make those. same mistakes and to be able to put. those things right, I think. And there. there there are a generation of TV men. who who I suspect would agree with me. and and I suspect would do anything they. can to try and find a route through it. And also to feel ju just an awful. depression and to and and to to to think.

about. how I don't know stuff that you miss and. stuff you take for granted and stuff you. don't realize and stuff you could have. done and stuff you could have said. Uh, and I just say to everybody, anything. that I' I've got to say, look at Lucy's. comments on Sky News, which she says. beautifully. And by the end of that, by. the end, she also says, "I worry I'm not. going to work in TV again for speaking. out." I know, >> right? We Let's We will keep a watchful. eye on that. And we make sure that Lucy, who's brilliant, works again. And a lot.

uh and you know, you God, you you hope. that things have changed. But it's it is. unremittingly. bleak. But with some of with some of the. people involved, I think it's very. difficult. I I struggle to think that. they didn't just It's very difficult. watching and I know he says he didn't. write it. Jonathan Ross make the joke. about 15year-olds going home with David. Williams, even Alan Carr saying, "You're. like an illegal taxi driver." It's very. diff.

sliding scale of bad things happening. that I talked about earlier that all. women understand and all women have been. in situations where they suddenly didn't. like what was happening. And I think. that perhaps fewer men have. And one of. the most chilling bits in that um the. ITV documentary actually is when um one. of the women is talking about being at a. party at David Williams' house and it's. full of high-profile celebrities and one. of the wives comes to her and says. you're very young be careful. And I just.

think God she knows but she knew but she. didn't feel she could say anything. Why? Why do you you know it's these people. were around it and I'm I. >> I really don't want to make a parallel. between the two cases. I really don't. >> But it reminds me when I heard that. story of when I see that picture of. Prince Andrew with his arm around. Virginia Dre's waist. And you just. think, okay, why did the royal. protection officers not think or. somebody not think what are these guys.

in their 40s doing going home with this. girl who is 17 but looks younger? It. looks so weird. like what are you doing? And it's it's obviously it's Epstein and. Gelain Maxwell and Prince Andrew and. then there's just someone so much. younger and the picture from one of. these parties which shows Lily who. wanted to be known by her own name I. thought was sort of incredibly. impressive and brave the way she spoke. and David Williams has his arm around. her and I just thought I mean it looks. ridiculous. It looks ridiculous. There's. all these people sitting around and.

again there's no suggestion they have. any knowledge of it but it's Jonathan. Ross and Ricky Jves and they're all. sitting around a table and then there's. this you know person who is just. obviously a teenager in the background. and when I see these things I think God. I I I really you know you're very. fortunate guys if you can go through. life and just have that sort of. blindness where you didn't realize cuz I. do believe I would have realized there. is a culture that just says oh I don't. know is it really, you know, what did.

Donald Trump say about Epstein? You. know, he's always got nice women and. they do suddenly tend to be on the young. side. You can say it in a speech. You. can say it in a speech because it's sort. of a joke. You can say it at the start. of the comedy awards. You can say it, you know, >> is it real? Is it is it just a thing? Is. it do we all know what's going on here. or we just like maybe not too thinking. too hard? And in the end, it's people. just not thinking too hard because they. would really not like what it was if. they thought about it hard enough. And I. really like your idea for people being.

able to report a mandatory offboarding. interviews. I think it just would be. essential and a system where things. could be centralized. Now there is a. sort of fairly new body which is trying. to establish itself which is called the. creative industries independent. standards authority. And if you go on. their web page, the number one button on. the front says, "Are you here to report. a concern?" Now, getting buyin from. everybody for them would be very, very. helpful. >> That would seem perfect. What they. called again? >> The Creative Industries Independent.

Standards Authority. >> If they need any help from us to get. some of that stuff over the line, we'd. be happy to do. It's fascinating because. I, you know, you can report people. I've. reported people for bullying and all. sorts of things over the years. It's. doable. But I've always been quite. senior, so of course I can. I can go, you know, a couple of times with agents. Agents, by the way, is something we. haven't really talked about, but that's. that's a sometimes a very difficult. relationship. And this is a database, by. the way, that would go across. entertainment, go across comedy, it. would go across drama, which so far.

seems seems to have sort of uh been. sidelined a bit, across news, across. documentaries, lots and lots of. different areas where I think it'd be. very very useful to be able at the end. of a contract because all of those are. areas where you have short-term. contracts and you move on and you move. on to different people and different. directors. the short-term nature of the. contracts is so much a part of what. keeps people thinking, well, I won't get. work if I'm that person. It's such a big. part of it. It's it's such a function of. the the silence, >> which is my you you almost have to. mandate it and also you have to be able.

to let HR departments in those companies. have power over some of the top. executives of those companies as well. I. think I think they have to be able to. say this has come through. We are not. comfortable with it. >> And I can also live without a lot of the. guys in the news media getting on their. high horse about this uh in the in the. past week cuz there's plenty of stories. that can be told there. >> Oh my god. A standardized version of it. where everybody is enabled to report at. the end of any production anything they.

saw. And as I say and as Lucy Bowman. says, most of the time there won't be. anything, but there doesn't need to be. It just needs to be about the times. where you saw something and 10 years. later you think, "Oh, you know what? I. wish I'd sort of said that now because. then I I heard something years years. later." But we just say it, put it down, just write it down and go and do the. next job. And if someone else has. written it down and then someone else. has written it down, then job done. >> Well, that about wraps us up uh for. today. Thank you for listening. everybody. Yeah, and genuine I do I do.

think with both of these cases, I hope. one thing about them, the highrofulness. of them, and thank you for everyone who. who've spoken up and thanks to the. journalists, is anyone who is in that. situation now hopefully they might feel. a tiny bit more empowered and and just. might know somebody to speak to and. that's the thing that is needed because. these things happen in the dark, right? And you just you need to shine as much. light as possible. Um, and but I I would. genuinely I mean the stuff I wanted to. say about safeguarding Lucy Belmont says. it's so much better on that interview.

with Kathy Newman. I would really really. recommend it. Everything she says is so. interesting and you can see the truth. behind every single second of every. single thing she says.