Becoming A Meme & Breaking the Fourth Wall with Richard Osman & Marina Hyde

Hello and welcome to this episode of the. Rest Is Entertainment questions and. answers edition. I'm Marina Hyde. >> Richard Osman. Hi everyone. Hello. Richard. Hey Marina, how are you? >> I'm very well, thank you. I'm actually. glad that our first question's got. something to do with House of Games. because I wanted to know a little bit. more about how your last episode felt. So Tom Baker, he is. not the fourth doctor. >> He's a worked for many years with a. writer called Tom Baker whose nickname. was Tom Baker not that Tom Baker. Every. time you talk to him he has to say. Tom Baker not that Tom Baker. What do.

you think about this? Well, this is from. Tom Baker not the fourth doctor which. who I think it's a they might be cousins. of the others. >> But also maybe not even the Tom Baker. not that Tom Baker who I know. So this. is Tom Baker not that Tom Baker. >> This is Tom Baker not that Tom Baker not. that Tom Baker. Yeah, you're going to. like this one because it begins I was. watching the Snooker World Championships. on the BBC. >> go, that's all I've been doing. And. right in the middle of it they cut away. for Oh my god, Richard Osman's House of. Games. They did. Important as House of. Games is, it felt pretty jarring timing. giving it was live sport and a fairly. unusual drawn out frame. Got me.

wondering, how do broadcasters like the. BBC actually decide when to pull the. plug on live event coverage? Is it. strictly schedule driven no matter. what's happening or is there supposed to. be some editorial discretion in moments. like that? >> If I have a Venn diagram, it's it's the. World Snooker Championships and House of. Games. If there's anything designed to. torment you than having to choose. between those two babies. Yeah, exactly. that. So here's here's what happened and. I I spent a a lot of last week having to. >> [laughter]. >> answer questions about this already but. having to do it again.

The Rest Is Entertainment is presented. by Octopus Energy. Now they've looked at. admin and decided it should behave much. more like a game show. >> When you provide your meter readings. they will give you a spin of a wheel. which allows you to win prizes, allows. you to win OctoPoints that you can spend. in the Shoptoppers. Yeah, it's the. gamifying of the boring bits of your. admin. Now listen, you know how much I. love Octopus Energy. The prizes I'm. going to say are not quite up to the. standard of the Wheel of Fortune. The. biggest ever prize on the Wheel of. Fortune is over 1 dollars. What feels.

more similar to some of the random. prizes they'll get on the Wheel of. Fortune they've had ceramic Dalmatians. I saw one where you could win a Gucci. calculator. You think okay, [laughter]. that's two of my favorite things. There. was an onyx bin. Yeah, I'm not again I'm. not dissing the prizes but I would have. probably gone for the Dalmatian. None of. these things you have to worry about. with Octopus Energy. It is simply. OctoPoints to spend in the Shoptoppers. >> Well, you have to submit your meter. reading to earn OctoPoints. >> your Yeah. And then you get prizes you.

don't actually have to persuade yourself. you want like money off your next bill. You can get a thousand pound off your. bill. If you get the top prize which is. 800,000 OctoPoints, thousand pound off. your bill just on the spin of a wheel. So the World Snooker had been on and. they have morning session, afternoon. session, evening session. The afternoon. session starts about 1:00, usually. finishes at about 5:00. So when. Wimbledon is on for example, House of. Games is off air because you know that. Wimbledon is all. plays across 6:00 you know so they they. keep it on air for the whole time.

because Wimbledon is giving them enough. coverage and the and the numbers are. high enough that they are happy to leave. it on. With the snooker they can't do that. because as I say it runs from about 1:00. till 5:00 and you know the rating the. people who watch snooker love it like me. and the coverage on the BBC is. absolutely impeccable but you don't take. House of Games off air because nine. times out of 10 the snooker's finished. In fact sometimes it will finish at like. 4:00 and they just show you know flog it. repeats. So on this particular occasion it's a.

semi-final and it's a bizarre frame of. people have seen it there was all sorts. online about it that it was the longest. frame in the history of. the World Snooker Championships at the. Crucible. Took an hour. It's like all. the reds went over one pocket with the. black in front of it. So it was it was a. very unusual frame where you had. Mark Selby. >> circle of that Venn diagram? It's like. unusual statistical events. >> Yeah, exactly. It was after the frame. finished Steve Davis said it was a. disgrace to snooker but everyone who. watched it loved it. So there there we. go cuz cuz it's unusual. You never seen.

anything quite quite like it before. So. we find ourselves in a situation where. suddenly the snooker is going over 6:00. which it never does or very very rarely. does and it's a frame which no one's. ever seen before. No one's ever seen. anything quite like it before. So the. absolute normal thing with the snooker. is and has been for years and years and. years at 6:00 you go over to House of. Games and the snooker goes onto the red. button or even it's on BBC 4. So the. every single ball of the entire. tournament is on the BBC is on iPlayer.

or it's on red button or it's on the. website. Well, lots of different ways to. watch it. And so 5:59 they go well for the last 10. years you've learned how to switch on. the iPlayer. So this is now going on the. red button and we're going to House of. Games. But this was the biggest rating. frame. of the whole year. >> [clears throat]. >> before the final. There's 1.4 million. people were watching it and that's a lot. of people who don't normally watch. snooker and who didn't know that you can. just turn onto the red button or. [clears throat] and the red button. wasn't quite working and all this kind. of.

malarkey. So they switched off from the. middle of this incredible frame or the. most boring frame in in history but. certainly a lot of people were watching. for House of Games and not just House of. Games but a House of Games repeat. That's the perfect storm we find. ourselves in there. If something. extraordinary had been happening. absolutely they would have put House of. Games on. red button but I think their thinking is. it's just like a frame in the. semi-final and you know we don't quite. know that this is going to go viral and. every single snooker fan knows where to. watch the snooker on the BBC so we'll.

send them off and even you know it's 1.4. million people watching it. Everyone's. going Oh my but how can they switch off. the highest rating thing but then House. of Games is getting like 1.8 million. So. what are you going to do? And people who. watch House of Games and they have that. routine would be beyond furious if you. took it off. And in fact lots of people. who were watching the BBC on the on the. red button were furious cuz the red. button stayed on the snooker and they. missed House of Games. So you know I was. looking at one of the House of Games. fans always on Facebook and they were. losing their minds about it. So it's one.

of those things ordinarily if you know. as a channel if you do have something. like Wimbledon and you know roughly you. know how much content you're going to. have it's very very easy you just you. know you take pointless off you take. House of Games off you take those. regular shows off. If it's the snooker. someone was saying they should just turn. BBC 2 onto the. the snooker channel for 2 weeks. And you think. >> Oh, that'll go down well. I mean. wouldn't it just? Something like the. snooker it just it it doesn't fill. enough hours and it doesn't get enough. viewers that you can just move. everything out of the way. So yeah it is.

it was a it was a. it was a tough call that one. For you if. you're two tribes that's Yeah, yeah. For. me for me it was it was particularly. tough [clears throat] but honestly I was. watching on the red button anyway so it. didn't I was I just kept watching the. snooker cuz that's where you watch the. snooker cuz you get to see all of it and. you can switch between the tables and. all of that stuff. So I think that like. snooker fans were okay with it but for. people who were just going Oh my god, what is this crazy 100 minute long. frame? They were furious that it was. taken off for a repeat of a game show. which I get but it's nothing to do with.

me. We said in all all of my answers. there nothing to do with me. >> Nothing to do with me. Yeah, and yeah I. don't even do the show anymore so. Speaking of which, can I ask you what. was the last episode like? Was it. >> Oh yeah, so yeah I went I went up to. Manchester last week and did yeah the. last ever episode. We brought back. people who had been champions and had. then had one champion of champions so we. did our first ever champion of champion. of champions. >> Oh, wonderful. Which is fun and people. like. Miles Jupp was on it. A lot of people. who I knew I was going to have a laugh.

with. Yeah, it was lovely and it was it. was emotional I love that crew so much. It was nice to be able to say thank you. to all of them and also the amazing. producers they've known me well enough. not to spring any surprises on me. They. knew they knew I would just want a good. solid week of quizzing. >> has it been? Nine years. Yeah, like 850. episodes something like that. It was lovely and then I got to watch. Michael. hosting as well and just seeing that the. same crew and that same amazing team. just carrying on that that show which.

will hopefully will go on forever and. ever and ever. Yeah, it was it was. really really lovely. I loved it and I. couldn't have had a better last week. So. I was I was absolutely thrilled. >> And that will air sometime later this. year. >> September I would have thought. Yeah, I. would have thought mid-September. something like that. It'll be my last. week and then into. Michael's first week. We did a little. skit as well for post-credits just like. a handover. It was a just a just a. little bit of business. Again I don't. it's it's only it's only a. quiz show but so I wanted to market but.

you know it's not. it's [clears throat] it's not like a new. pope. It's a big thing in my. >> [laughter]. >> A question for you Marina from Emily. Cooper. Emily says how should an actor. react when they're getting memed on the. internet? Should they lean in brackets. Will Smith, say they hate them brackets. Demi Lovato, or pretend they don't have. access to the internet brackets Cillian. Murphy? Cillian Murphy, yeah the internet's. boyfriend who always just says you know. I don't have a personal email. He said. doesn't have a personal email. How how. does he get buy things from the shops?

That's the only reason you'd have like. anyway. Do you need you don't you need a. personal email to buy things from the. shops? Well, you you can't get your. agent to do it. So I'm just going on. Amazon to get something. >> Oh, I suppose you need an email you need. an email address. Yes, I saw it I saw. it. >> Quite annoying if you're using But you. don't have to you don't have to answer. an email. You don't have to sort of say. to Sainsbury's. You don't have to say to Sainsbury's. re my order hope everything is going. well and they reply Cillian, yeah just. packing it now. >> I just get my agent to do that anyway. already so it's just summary I already.

am in a place. Yes, the actor memes we. all know them. Actually even at the. Oscars this year Conan O'Brien tried to. get them to make one. I did think that. was a bit like okay is it 2016 but I'm. trying to get Leonardo DiCaprio who's. very often memed because he's got that. how would I describe sort of like a. subtle awkwardness and wryness a kind of. small expression. And where someone like. Jennifer Lawrence is like it's all out. there in the screen And a bit you know. she's very relatable kind of chaos or. big expressions. Meryl Streep, very.

theatrical, she's got lots of good. reactions. Ryan Gosling's got a specific. thing. They're kind of. he's very good at like just the eyebrow. raise or the imperceptible stuff. And. for me, you know, Ben Affleck, what am I. doing? What are we all doing? >> [laughter]. >> There's a sort of despair in the the. Affleck. Yeah, I've been taught I mean, I was talking to someone this week. actually completely by coincidence and. they were saying that actors are being. taught about like meme face, you know, don't have resting meme face. >> that. You need resting natural face. We. do know this. Um because you know that.

when you are just in the audience at any. award show, any reaction could end up. just being clipped forever. But I'm at. the I'm at the BAFTAs on Sunday. Yeah, would just have rest resting natural. face. >> be losing my 20th award in a row in a. row [laughter] for House of Cards, so I. will be. I am not I'm not going to have my. resting face is not going to be. impressed. >> Okay, well, you could you could become a. meme. When we were talking the other. week about select committee hearings and. things like that, it's very difficult. you know to have to constantly be on and. not be making any kind of face. I mean, I personally definitely couldn't do it. How should they handle them? I would say.

unless it's bad, be grateful is my short. answer to this. Um. you have said something emotionally. readable that speaks to our culture and. speaks to our times. Really, I mean, you. know, this is why the reason I'm seeing. a lot of Ben Affleck like leaning. against the door with a cigarette in his. hand with his eyes shut looking. absolutely despairing. I mean, you've. said something that speaks to the times. And also in an always-on culture, you. don't even have to go out there and. work. It's just constantly getting. circulated. I'm I'm ashamed you're not.

monetizing it, but. >> It's a shame, but you're staying in the. conversation and there's a trickle down. for sure. I would say to be glad. Um. obviously, unless it's really bad and. you're doing something that's just oh my. god, why did I do that? And forever. afterwards it's being used as a In. general though, these things are very. easily emotionally readable and they're. relatable. Otherwise, we could wouldn't. keep using them as proxy for our own. reactions to things. >> And that's an actor's job. >> Yeah. And they have become a proxy You. couldn't have explained this to someone. 20 years ago. You just couldn't have. explained it. But now we use these.

to put our own emotions out in the. world. So I would say it's great um and. lean in. Shall we go for a little break? >> Let's go for a break. >> [music]. >> This episode is brought to you by Lloyd, who you can rely on to keep life running. smoothly. Now, you know what isn't. celebrated enough is the. behind-the-scenes work that makes. successful entertainment seem so smooth. You know, you go on to any sort of set. and there's the talent and everyone's.

you know, have to run around after them. But the people having [snorts] to run. around after them are the runners. And. there is not a single successful. television show that isn't powered by. brilliant runners. Whenever you hear a. director or actor say, you know, we're. all just one big happy family, I always. think, yeah, and you're the children. And the people who are like running. around are actually always the youngest. people on set because runners are always. really young. It's their absolute first. job in the business. And the other key. thing is if the runners are good, you. don't notice them because nothing goes. wrong. And this very similar to your. bank. You just need them to be there.

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Devil Wears Prada 2. From Andrew. Fletcher. He says, I'm sure more and. more films now feature cameos heavily. Brackets, Devil Wears Prada 2. What's. the logistical challenge of achieving. things like this? Um now, we thought because Devil Wears. Prada 2 is out right now and doing. enormous business. uh and does feature celebrity cam-. cameos, uh we asked your question, Andrew, to. the director of The Devil Wears Prada 2, David Frankel. Well, Andrew, the. logistical challenge of having all these. cameos is.

um scheduling them. You know, it just. getting everybody to [clears throat]. show up on time. You know, the. we were lucky enough that so many people. wanted to be a part of the movie. And. you know, we we actually couldn't. accommodate everybody who wanted to be. in, but um. yeah, just finding and finding the right. spot and and and um. you know, and then of course, a lot of. them had never been in a movie before. So. you know, Donatella Versace didn't. understand that you don't just shoot it.

once and then you go to lunch. >> [laughter]. >> There's like that there's that there's. more than one shot and you have to do it. over and over. So, you know, there's different. challenges with each one, but um mostly. scheduling. That's so interesting. And. funny enough, from um Tina Brown on her. Substack this week, she is in a cameo in. this movie and out in the Hamptons or. something um where Miranda Priestly. obviously has a house. Meryl Streep character. There's a lunch. taking place and Tina Brown's at it and.

Kara Swisher, who's um you know, Another. American kind of commentator. [laughter]. There's lots of people. And Tina Brown. describes the day and it's really like. we all get picked up at 4:00. We're. really excited cuz we're being The Devil. Wears Prada. They've got to sit around. It gets very, very hot by about 11:00. Um they're sitting around this lunch. table. They're having some kind of. lobster dish. They're obviously not. allowed to have it, but and they. definitely wouldn't want to eat it after. a certain number of hours because it's. got very, very hot. Um and it goes on I. I think they finally get out of it at. 8:00 p.m. So that was quite a long lunch.

um not in the old-fashioned sense. So I I definitely think that managing. all of Those ones are quite difficult. And especially the ones I've seen. There's a There's a Rory McIlroy um. again, why is Rory McIlroy in it? But. anyway, um in a crowd scene and I thought that. will have taken a while. >> Rory McIlroy's in a crowd scene in The. Devil Wears Prada. >> wife a party, you know, a party. But a. party scene as we know can take a really. long time to do because people are doing. the wrong thing in the background. It. feels like a grand idea doing a cameo,

but it's always, I would say, >> It's like people talk about herding. high-end cats, but all of these cats. have got an I mean, like all cats. really, a number of views about their. own status. Um Donatella Versace, I. wonder how many times they told us they. had to say it. Yeah, we're just going to. do it one more time actually. No, now. we're doing this coverage or that. coverage. Is it my coverage? It always sounds like fun, but films. take forever. I mean, not because people. are lazy or stupid. They just it's one. of those things that just takes forever. But Rory McIlroy is also in Happy. Gilmore 2, so he already knew. I mean, that's more understandable why he is in.

Happy Gilmore I know why he's in Happy. Gilmore 2. >> I was very happy to see him in The Devil. Wears Prada, but he wouldn't have been. my first pick for an automatic cameo. Yeah, that feels very peculiar, but you. know, does it it's good for the brand. and but yeah, and ego things. I love I. love that David Frankel was saying that. um they couldn't they couldn't. accommodate everyone. So you're. thinking, oh, there's some people. >> having their's cut. I read some I don't. know whether this is true that Sydney. Sweeney's was cut. >> put that but that's the thing as well. It doesn't matter who they are. If if. it's not working for the movie, it's.

nothing to do with the person in the. cameo. It's just the flow of the film. and the you know, the duration and you. have to cut you know, imagine if you had. to cut the. the scene that Tina Brown and everyone's. in. Yeah. That's an awful lot of people. who Well, Tina Brown said she couldn't. deliver a line. She thought she could. and then she says, I'm like a I end up a. mute guest at this party because even. though one of the great talkers, because. once she has to say the thing, it's she. said it just sounds like sort of fake. words and blah. >> It's it's impossible. That's why you. know, you can't ever until you Yeah, I. said I do lots of.

self-tapes with Ingrid and and until you. do it, you think, oh, I can't act. I have no way of doing. this. I have no way of sounding natural. I cannot do it. And you know, God bless. Rory McIlroy from the. Happy Gilmore movie was sort of the. same. And then you get someone like in. the Happy Gilmore, which had so many. cameos, Bad Bunny, unbelievable. >> Yeah, he's in court stealing um which is. and he actually plays a proper role. I. think he'll we'll see him at more and. more. He's very good. John Daly was. amazing in Happy Gilmore 2. But I mean, he was he was just.

really, really good. >> A showman. Yeah. Uh but yeah, it it's um. until you turn up for a cameo and are. given a line, you is you you will find. out very quickly if you can act or not. And the answer is almost certainly you. can't. Question from Tom Rose for you, Marina. Your trope series. We didn't mean it to be a trope series, but yeah, we've covered McGuffins, Chekhov's guns, and red shirts. Um. I would like to ask about the breaking. the fourth wall. Presumably, this comes. from theater, but who was the first to. do this on television? And what are your. favorite examples? Oh, yes, this is it.

definitely comes from theater. If you. imagine a theater stage and with a. proscenium arch as a sort of three-sided. box and then the bit that you're looking. through, that wall is the fourth wall. just to sort of for anyone who doesn't. know what this is. But the characters. don't acknowledge the artifice that. there's an audience there or whatever. It It's almost like, you know, someone's. just taken the lid off and we're having. a look into their world. Um and it's the. same in TV, it's when people don't look. into the camera. The camera is. effectively the fourth wall in. television because it's we're roving.

everywhere. Yeah, and when they do. directly look into the camera and talk. to you, They're talking to you, the. audience. They're acknowledging that. we're sort of in a fiction, but we are. and we aren't and whatever. You're. right, it's been happening in theater. forever, but actually interestingly, we. didn't even sit No one thought In. ancient Greek drama, no one thought of. it as a fourth wall because it was so. normal for them to talk to the audience. and whatever. It's only actually in um. the late 19th century when naturalism as. an idea comes in and people start. talking about a box set, you know, and a. room and a fourth wall. The Before then.

in Shakespeare, obviously, everyone's. talking to the audience. There are. constant soliloquies and addressing of. the audiences and choruses and prologues. and epilogues and all of that stuff. It's only actually at the end of the. 19th century that becomes a thing. Um. even in early cinema, it starts to. happen and um people talk to the. audience, which is kind of radical. But. onto your questions about TV, um I had a. look into this. There are some. animations where it sort of happens, but. I don't think we account animations as. as as what you're asking about. Um the. George Burns and Gracie Allen show, they. were a married couple um and they were.

both comedians and they had a sitcom. about being married and um in the '50s. So, that would have been the '50s and. that happened then it was a big thing. George um. George Burns himself, you can see lots. of these old episodes on YouTube and you. might have seen them if you've ever been. in America, they used to rerun this all. the time. Certainly, I think in you. know, as as recently as the '90s, but it. does seem very old now. It's black and. white and whatever. George Burns used to. kind of stand offstage of it it was all. filmed in a live studio or something. He.

would also narrate to the camera. Um and. by the end, he was sort of watching it. on TV, which was very very meta. It's a. kind of meta commentary because you're. addressing the audience directly. Actually, there are funny there's. interesting examples, which I really. revere David Letterman. I think he's. extraordinary and extraordinary. broadcaster. And when he before before. he became Letterman of late night, he. had a daytime show and there was a time. where once it was going so badly, you. know, their ratings so badly and they. knew they were going to get canceled and. he brought on TV onto set and put on.

what was on the other channel, what was. on one of their rivals and started just. deconstructing it and laughing about it. So, that's an example. I mean, although. you couldn't say that because that's not. a fiction and he was a direct but there. was a sort of meta to that. Um Monty. Python obviously did it a lot. These. days it's. almost always done as comedy. Exceptions. to that yeah, Miranda. Exceptions to. that are things like House of Cards um. where but again, that was the US one. where um Kevin Spacey as Frank Underwood. would address the camera, but that was. based on a the British House of Cards um.

and it was very that was very. theatrical. It's brilliantly done. Exactly brilliantly done. Very but but. but something very theatrical about it. Um so, I'm going to say some of my. favorites in no particular order since. luckily you didn't ask for that. Um. Ferris Bueller, I love Ferris Bueller. and Ferris Bueller's Day Off. I love the way he addresses the camera. because what he does there. is invite the audience into a kind of. conspiracy of naughtiness and fun and. you're kind of bunking off with him off. school and I you just felt like it's.

about feeling part of the gang. I love. that. I love when Woody Allen does it in. Annie Hall as Alvy Singer. He said, you. know, I really felt like my character. was so epitomized the problems with the. audiences that I wanted to speak to the. audience directly. So, I love I'm it's. one of my favorite films. Um this is. going to feel like a period piece. because now everything's sponsored and. whatever, George Burns used to kind of. stand offstage and talk to the camera. Mike Myers and Dana Carvey in that. movie, it felt so radical and so new and. so like, "Oh my god, I can't believe.

they're acknowledging this thing." And. it was a real sort of. again, it's always postmodern and meta. I will actually say that my number one. is. um [snorts] Phoebe Waller-Bridge in. Fleabag because first of all, you knew. it grew out of a theatrical show and. that's why it really works. But also, it. was unfashionable doing this Okay, yes, it was very cool when um. when Mike Myers does it in in Wayne's. World, but that was ages ago and that. was something sort of as I say quite. radical. But this was unfashionable and. it just because no one really did it. It.

was stagey and yet it pulled everyone. into it. She became. someone who epitomized so many women. particularly. their issues, their experience of life. and it was so utterly involving and it. was very very although as I say, it's. been going on for genuinely millennia, it's somehow felt completely fresh and. radical and also kept its roots in the. stage show out of which it was born. Yeah, I mean, I would have said if I had. a number one, but you mentioned it. already, Francis Urquhart in House of. Cards because you you hit the ground.

running in that show and because it. feels very Shakespearean, it feels. acceptable that someone is, you know, delivering a little prologue to you and. then every now and again, he just he. just look absolutely down down the lens. and say something to explain what just. happened or you you know. So arch and. you felt you were being Yeah. a lesson. to that archness. >> comes from a book and books have always. done it. I mean, Reader, I Married Him, that's the perfect example of breaking. the fourth wall. And I've I've really, you know, read lots of books. There's. certainly sort of Victorian and earlier. novels that. it is someone is clearly writing a novel.

and they say, "I'm writing a novel. Here. is our story, dear reader." And I love. that sort of thing. I think that I I. would love. >> like plays within plays. Yeah, plays. within plays. >> anything like that that acknowledges the. artifice, but somehow still makes it. mean so much. >> Yeah. It is I'm really into it. >> it you know, it with a novel, it really. makes sense because you know, you are. sort of you know, if you're whoever you. are, Dickens or whoever you are, recounting a tale that happens to some. people and you're allowed to say, "Here.

is the tale that happened. I am Charles. Dickens.". Um and yeah, I I would I won't say I'm. Charles Dickens. uh if I if I did it, but I would love to. write a book that starts with sort of. acknowledging that you're about to tell. people a story. >> Yes. It'd be loads of fun. This can only. be for you, Richard. Annie Norris would. like to know. She says, "I feel this is. a question only Richard can answer. rightly. Who is the best celebrity. quizzer?" I mean, it's it's a question. that would have seemed weird a few years. ago because what does that even mean? But now there is a a circuit.

on television, which is. pointless celebrities um. RIP, House of Games, The Chase um Tipping Point, Lucky Stars, um Celebrity Mastermind. It attracts all. sorts of celebrities on onto it, but. does also attract celebrity quizzers, which are celebrities who love to quiz. And this is a perfect So, there is is is. really. like a two-speed thing, celebrity. quizzing on TV cuz there are people who. are just there because it's fun and it's. a booking and there's people there cuz.

they want to prove themselves and you. know, um you know, there there's there. is the holy grail of of winning the the. pointless trophy, the House of Games. trophy, the Mastermind trophy and The. Chase and you know, it it's there's lots. of people who've been on. all of them. It's tricky cuz lots of those shows are. different, harder to win. Celebrity. Mastermind, if you win that, it sort of. shows something about yourself. Um. House of Games as well, I think there's. sufficient, you know, different. difficulties in the questions that.

that's that's something that quizzers. like to do. You know, something like The. Chase, you you can be judged on how much. money that you've made. Um someone who's won sort of all of. those shows is um. Richard Herring. Sometimes people say, "Oh, Richard Herring must be the best. celebrity quizzer." But every time he's. on Pointless Celebrities, he did. terribly. I think his like first three. appearances on that didn't get past the. first round. So, I'm I'm [laughter] if. you're listening, Richard, I'm. disqualifying you. and you know, you know I have to. Someone like Stu Pemberton, every time. he goes on something does incredibly. well. He's a very very good quizzer.

House of Games, very few people have won. all five shows. Jay Rayner did, Vittorio. Angeloni did, but I would say the two. best celebrity quizzers. in my view and this goes across. The Chase, it goes across Beat the. Chasers, it goes across Celebrity. Mastermind, all of those things. Angela. Barnes, I would say who did who um. went five out of five on House of Games. and has done all sorts of things on. other quizzes as well. And Shaun. Williamson, Barry from EastEnders, who. was I think the first three-time. Pointless jackpot winner. The two of.

them I would say. >> He is a phenomenon. I mean, Paul Sinha. of course is the best celebrity quizzer. really, but he in some ways he's a. quizzer. Yeah, he is because he's he is. like a professional quizzer as well, but. he would if if you're. you know, he's a wonderful stand-up as. well. So, if you just take him as a. stand-up, he is of course the best. celebrity quizzer. But if you want. people who were celebrities and just go. on quizzes, I'm going Angela Barnes and. Shaun Williamson. Next week, we will not. be answering any questions because Paul. McCartney will be answering your.

questions. We will be answering your. questions. We are extremely excited. about that. So, do join us for that. >> And also, thank you for I mean, I mean, I saw many questions. I'm really really. sorry if we don't get to yours, but we. really. Yeah, we won't. [laughter]. There were there were so many. Uh but. really really really some great and very. very smart questions that are hopefully. different questions than he's been. asked before. Other than that, tomorrow. for our members, uh we have a bonus. episode about the Michael Jackson Pepsi. commercial incident. His hair caught.

fire. Um Not the most controversial thing ever. happened to him, but. >> No, but um there was a there was a. ripple there were ripple effects. Anyhow, um that's if you want to become. a member for ad-free listening and bonus. episodes, it's theresto. entertainment.com. Otherwise, we'll see. you next Tuesday. >> next Tuesday. >> [music]. [music].