Are Nonsense Memes The New Punk Rock?

I think our first story might be the. most mental thing we've ever spoken. about. If I say Italian brain rot, then. um half the listeners are sighing and. the other half of listeners are going, "Huh?" But uh either way, we're going to. take you through what it is and why this. week is very very important. >> Yes. The brain rock wars. >> Brain rock wars. >> And we're going to be talking Can you. buy your way onto the bestsellers list, Richard? We're going to talk about Arim. Emanuel, the Hollywood super agent whose. book Roll the Calls came out recently. >> Exactly. and there's some controversy. over it. We also get to talk a little.

bit about Ari Emanuel himself, which is. always fun because he's one of the most. mental people in Hollywood and that is. uh there's some competition for that. But talking of things that are genuine. insanity, the world of Italian brain. rot. >> The world of Italian brain rot. What is. Italian brain rot? Brain rot is like an. >> I can't believe we're starting a. podcast. Well, it's not the first time. that we have mentioned this on this. podcast. I believe I took you right into. this whole last year when it came out. Okay. But um I tell you it's like an.

online word. It's an internet culture. word for sort of poor quality content. And a subgenre of that is Italian brain. rot. Um which are sort of weird AI. generated hybrid creatures, characters. with Italian names, Italian-ish names, nonsense names really. They interact in. kind of absurdest, I think quite. nihilist ways. There's Ballerina. Cappuccina. She's like a dancing sort of. ninja cup of coffee. There's Bombadero. Crocodilo. That's a plane with a. crocodile head. As I say, they're all. these hybrid creatures. There's Talera.

Tala. That's the shark in sneakers. >> The first one of all. >> Uh, yes, the first one of all. And I. mean, there loads of these now. But. actually, the one who's emerged as the. biggest star is Tung Tong Tong Sah. The rest is entertainment is presented. by Octopus Energy whose generation. business backs, builds, and manages. renewable energy projects. On screen. though, the practicalities of sourcing. power are slightly more negotiable. >> Certainly in script, I mean my favorite.

energy source story, Back to the Future, of course, they're supposed to have. plutonium, they don't have plutonium, so. they rely back in when they go back. >> When they go back, >> so they need to get 1.21 21 gaw. >> which they get from the lightning strike. which they know is going to happen at. 10:04. Very very clever. Monsters Inc. Now you know where the power source is. on Monsters Ink. >> Everything in Monstropolis is powered by. children's screams which is why they. need to sort of harvest them. >> Yeah. May not work in real life. >> on screen. Keeping the lights on does. seem to require an unnecessary amount of.

drama. >> Now Octopus Energy Generation has rather. less need for a screenwriter. It backs, builds, and manages renewable energy. projects with 5.7 gawatts of capacity. across its portfolio. Enough to power. all the homes and businesses of. Birmingham, Leadeds, and Manchester. combined. A slightly more conventional. approach to generating power. So, Tonga is based on a sort of. elongated kind of Indonesian drama. Now, the original creator with the seven.

prompts of um Tong Tong Tong Saha is a. Indonesian sort of teenage kid whose um. handle is Noxa internet handle. >> And by the way, only created in February. 2025. That's how quick this. >> Oh my god, that's distant. >> I know. I know. It's amazing, isn't it? >> It's got um human limbs and a baseball. bat. >> like tung tung like just like tung tong. And if you're asking where you see these. things, there are masses of online. content, like absolutely massive. YouTube. People use them themselves,

then people bring them into their own. kind of content. Um, they are they've. been adopted. Tung tongue tung has gone. as a skin into Fortnite. This is when. you can play as different characters, you know, and Stealer Brain Rock, which. I believe I talked to you if you listen. to this podcast over a year ago, which. is a Roblox game. Now Roblox as you know. is the gaming platform for which is. particularly kind of gen focused. It is. worth 46 billion and um I mean it's been. suffering recently but it might be on. the rebound. So it's this is a big thing.

>> right can I can I just because there are. some people who are utterly lost at this. point. The reason we are talking about. it is we have all these unusual little. creatures almost all AI generated which. which are kind of play things for a. generation of creators and a generation. of consumers. So we have children. >> and nihilist children which of course is. all children. Um, so Triple T, Tung, so. her I'm going to call uh uh him/ her. >> You're going to call use Triple T. >> Triple T there as you say Triple T was.

used in Roblox. It's been used in. various things. Uh and the. [clears throat] question that is now. coming about is can it be copyrighted? The reason that's the question is it's. created by AI. The Indonesian creator of. it took 15 minutes and seven prompts to. create this character which by the way. is not that he's not cheating. And. that's what how all these characters are. created. They're created by a series of. prompts. It went out into the world. Hundreds of thousands of users shared. it, used it, did completely new things,

you know, created a world around it. It. is now enormous. Does that Indonesian. kid still own Triple T? Or more to the. point, do the uh large agencies who've. paid that kiddos some money own Triple. T? Can you own something that you. created in 15 minutes with seven prompts. that is making hundreds of millions of. pounds? I mean billions of views of this. character and other Italian brain rock. characters. >> just as predicted in Adam Smith the. wealth of nations. Do you know what.

>> all exactly is predicted in capitalist. >> exactly what I was you know what I I was. rereading desk cavitar just to see what. Marks had to say about it. >> and there's a sealed section just about. tum tum tum. >> and it says not not to be read until. 2026 and it actually has a weird it's. like a it's like a sausage but that has. tank wheels uh is the uh is is the. chapter heading. So that's where we are. These these these things are thrown out. there into the culture. They are. co-opted by thousands of kids. The whole.

worlds are built around these. characters. Which one's married to who? Who who's enemies of who? Is it. >> actually to my mind sort of quite a. creative world. I would say. >> it's I' there's a lot I like about it. and also just how much it is meant as an. absolute two fingers to all human. adults. >> Exactly. >> My favorite thing about it, >> but also to all celebrities. Yeah. Because what they have done this. generation is created a world of. characters who are their own celebrities.

who don't exist who they can impose. whatever they want on project anything. they want onto can make uh interact with. each other can build whole big soap. storylines of these absurdest characters. these absurdist um memes they can create. anything they want out of them there is. a huge huge huge amount of money in it. now and that's the reason it's. fascinating the absurdity of it is. fascinating the creativity of it is. fascinating, but the legality of it, I. think, for us is even more fascinating. because these things were created by AI.

They were firstly created by AI and then. created by fan culture. So, who owns. them? >> It's interesting the people who have. inserted themselves into this. So, there. is a company called Momentum Lab. Their. sort of backstory is they seem to have. sprung out of the goodness of their. heart, Richard, to take care of creators. who create things in this kind of space. and put things out in the world that. become very popular and they become. hugely viral to allow the original. creators to benefit from that verality. And indeed, Momentum Labs to take their.

whatever percent. >> I should point Momentum Meum. >> Yeah. >> Clever. >> Yeah, super clever. And there's a games. company called Doo Big Studios who. created that game that was on Roblox. called Steeler Brain, which I do. remember I was telling you I I ended up. telling you because I was talking to you. about Grow a Garden, which became this. huge kind of runaway thing on even by. the standards of um Roblox games. But. what was coming up behind it was Steal a. Brain, which is such a basic game. It's. literally like running a gauntlet and.

just stealing other people's brain. I. used to hear this wailing from upstairs. from my daughter and then one of her. brothers saying the game is called steal. a brain rot. [laughter]. >> What did you expect? >> So what if I've stolen your brain rod? >> It's like oh my god I can't get involved. in any of this but um I did sort of find. it fascinating. As I say Roblox is worth. an unbelievable amount of money. You. know it's probably worth like half. Warner or whatever. It was worth about. the same for a bit. It's it might be the. stock might be rebounding. It's not. clear, but at a certain point, Steeler. Brain Rot had something like 26 million.

concurrent users. That means at any one. time they had that and that was their. kind of peak. So, it's interesting. Momentum then said, do big studios put. Tung Saha in this game? >> Triple Triple T along with all all the. other brain rots because that. >> and they did it because they're going I. mean, they're all made of AI so they're. in public ownership. So, we like playing. green sleeves over an advert. We can do. what we want with this. >> Exly. And then Momentum Lab said, "No, you've got to pull it.". >> Momentum Lab being very much the the.

medicine frontier of this story. >> And they said, "You've got to pull it. Our creator has to benefit from it.". They did pull it at first and now. they're like, "No, we're putting him. back in and we're suing Momentum to say. you cannot copyright it." Certainly in. the US, it is global this thing. It kind. of particularly took off in South. America. The brain, there's lots of kind. of it will be a global story and. everyone's jurisdictions are different. But they're saying that there is. insufficient human input into tung tung. >> You didn't think you'd be saying tung. tong tung sah this word. By the way, one.

of my children is in the other's phone. as this. So I it's Yeah. One of the. things I like about it is that people. have become so obsessed with tung tong. that they're trying to they've always. tried to backwards engineer the exact. prompts that we use. That's a whole. subculture of the subculture is people. saying, "What did he type in to get this. exact image out?" And people have tried. to sort of go back. It's like the key to. all mythologies. They've tried to go. back and try and work out what he. >> Seven prompts. >> Seven prompts. And they try to work out.

what they were. >> Seven prompts, $1 billion. Yeah. You do. the math. And lots of people currently. are doing the math. >> Yeah. >> Or over here, they're doing the math. >> What is interesting is it like all a lot. of these things there isn't any case. law. It this will be this ridiculous. creature is going to be a test case as. to what actually you can copyright when. it's AI generated. I find that quite. fascinating. Yes. >> The other thing I think is very. interesting is. >> there's something just I mean the the. bit that to me is the most interesting. is is not even the legal. It to me it is.

that kind of how of generational FU that. like. this represents. >> the first time when you saw saw all. these things. >> Um and there was another one that came. out which I'm going to also talk about. Skibbidity Toilet. >> Skibbly Toilet. And when this came out, I remember God, I remember when. Scibbidity Toilet came out. >> God, do you remember this is like Cider. with Rosie, isn't it? But but for Sci. >> Well, because my children were showing. me. >> Skippy Toilet with Rosie. >> and and I God, I remember um John Brown,

he's brilliant. He was the showrunner of. the franchise, saying, "Yeah, I mean, imagine how many more people have. watched this in an episode of. Succession, which he also [laughter]. wrote like and I let me tell you what it. was. It was like it came out of nowhere. It is. It became beyond massive with. Jenna the Skippidity Toilet. It this guy. called Alexi Garasimoff created it. He's. a Georgian guy. Um it is a sort of. absurdest dystopian thing. I mean I. don't know if it's a sat. It's a sat on. like adults being able to understand. anything that children are into. It's a.

story of a war. There are like loses. with human heads in and then there are. other creatures which have cameras for. heads or TVs for heads, something like. that. Security cameras, that sort of. thing. Uh there's a war. That IP is now. been scooped up by someone called. Invisible Narratives. >> But Garasimoff is a is an illustrator. So he actually created. >> they say he's an EP. He's moved away. from the sole creator. >> It wasn't it wasn't that's not an AI. thing. So it's a it's a slightly. different thing. >> It's but he was by the end he must have.

been using AI. He can post that often. I. mean he posted daily updates on this. But but the creation of the original. idea and original thought came out of. his brain as far as one can tell. >> But now there's a huge backlash there. because people are saying they've taken. his creation away from him. You know. these people who are these kind of big. agencies or these big like hey let me. represent you and take your kind of idea. away from you. >> Yeah. Welcome to showbiz. >> Yeah welcome show biz. It the. showbizification of brain rot is just. sort of kind of nuts. And the thing I find most hysterical is.

the adult companies, not adult like. that, but adult like the grown-ups in. Hollywood saying, "Yeah, we need we. probably need to get in on this brain. rot thing." There is a Steeler brain rot. movie in development, which when I told. my children that, they were like, "How. long does it take to make a movie?" I. was like, "Oh, I mean, it's it's a long. time to make a movie, like two and a. half years." And they were like, "What?". Like, how embarrassing. No one's going. to give it no one's going to care about. the brain roar. Okay. So, when I read. about the Steeler Brain movie being in. development, I couldn't it it was like, you know, picture yourself as a writer.

>> I would have loved to have pictured. myself. It It's like trying I don't. know. It's like trying to make a pop. song about, I don't know, gravity or so. I I don't know. It It's It was such a. sort of weird category mistake. Like, you can't develop a movie for sort of. two and a half years, then finally get. it into theaters, whatever. They don't. even want to go to the movies. They. don't want to watch it like that. They. want to watch it on a phone. This is. such a category mistake. I can't believe. you're making it. But there's a a. company called Story Kitchen that sort. of often develops stuff out of games are. doing it. Their statement is so. embarrassing. You you have to give a.

little statement to the trade papers. We're thrilled to bring stealer brain. rot to the big screen. Okay. Why are you. doing it? Uh they wrote Newini. And they. signed it off. Nubini Pitanini 67. It's. like, oh my god, this is so cringe. I. luckily no children are reading the. trade papers, but also no children are. going to go to the theaters to watch. this. >> I bet your daughter reads Variety. >> Yeah. Oh, she's never often. I love um. Story Kitchen. >> Story Kitchen. >> Welcome in. What are we mixing? What's. that you smell? Why? It's a little. steeler brain movie. Sit yourself down,

take the weight off your feet, and. enjoy. >> Yeah, >> you can you can put this [clears throat]. in a hanger somewhere in the valley. >> I mean, you absolutely. And the um and I. don't know where Skiidy Toilet is. currently being run out of, but it isn't. Georgia anymore. And these people are. trying to develop like they're. developing masses of merchandising, masses of they're just trying to sort of. roll it out. But it's so against the. original spirit of it, >> which is as a sort of, as I say, it's a. sort a form of rebellion. It's like the.

thing that people like most in some ways. is showing their parents this stuff so. their parents can go, I what am I. raising? What what are we raising? >> But isn't that everything? You know, everything gets co-opted. Everything. starts, well, not everything, but all. sorts of things start as this little. underground thing that, you know, older. people don't understand. Look at punk in. the 70s and then look at the money. everyone made out out of punk in the in. the late '7s. You know, look at EMI. making money out of punk. I mean, it's. just it's and when I when I'm equating. uh brain rock with punk, you know what I. mean? >> Oh, yeah. But it's a similar spirit.

>> Yeah, exactly. It's a similar spirit. And these things always get ruined. People always jump in. And also, by the. way, they will make some money off it. because there will be a generation. coming along afterwards who weren't at. the forefront, who weren't at the. Vanguard, who just grow up liking the. characters and looking at the characters. and go, "Oh, I like that funny. character." And they'll go and see a. movie about it. But this first. generation, this first wave of kids who. we think are insane, this is like an. incredibly creative generation. What an. incredibly brilliant thing to have in. your generation. this ridiculous stuff.

that nobody above the age of sort of 13. has any understanding of that you. yourself can constantly remix that you. yourself can be an active part in you. know create and develop what a what a. lovely thing to have it is like growing. up with punk. >> it is and for generation digital. folklore that everyone sort of owns it's. difficult to I suppose someone did start. it off it's very interesting when you. look at those I' you something you've. just said has reminded me that there's.

There's so few films that have made over. a billion, you know, or whatever. I. can't remember how big the list is now. Say it's 60 or something, but actually. only a few of those are a tiny few, like. less than five, I think, are originals. And one of them is Free Guy, which is. that Ryan Reynolds movie. When I say. it's originals and it's not a franchise. thing, when I saw it in a cinema, it. it's kind of like in a sort of gaming. world. And um once all the sort of. Fortnite skins are getting thrown in. near the end it that children were like.

cheering in the cinema they absolutely. loved it and it's sort of it's quite. hard to explain that that is what an. original is that really speaks to. people. So I'm not saying that these. films can't potentially but there's. something that is so antithetical to the. spirit of the brain in the idea of like. a Hollywood studio making a film about. it. But how lovely that we're in a. position now where we're defending the. uh the idealism of brain you know and it. is and. >> there are so many of these characters by. the way they are you cannot believe how.

there are more characters as you I think. your celebrities point is very. interesting the idea that I remember. someone else saying to me is like oh my. my children couldn't name a celebrity. they probably know the rock that's it. they have they could not name one and. >> the idea that they're they're as you say. you control these people they're not. really interested in like waiting for. celebrities to parcel out their exciting. high-end entertainment projects to them. >> Obviously, they, you know, there's. things like Taylor Swift that transcend. all of these things, but in general, they're not really interested in that. They want constant production. They want.

to be part of it. They want it to be a. sort of experience that you could. generate your own stuff as well. >> Yeah. And it's like if Pokémon were a. live soap opera. It it takes an awful. lot of things that have come along like. collecting things like what's new, what's next, what's coming next week. added to just this thing that you can. interact with things. Hollywood and TV. still talk about oh we should make more. interactive television TV that's. interactive. You think you are so that I. mean yeah. >> that horse has not just bolted that. horse has lived a long happy life and.

died at the age of 18 in a beautiful. meadow by a stream. I mean, it's it's. long gone. This stuff, this remix. culture, this creating your own stuff, this interactive culture, it is it's. happening somewhere entirely different. And it's happening because an Indonesian. kid saw a drum that wakes you up for. Sahur, you know, the meal uh before. Ramadan uh and decided to put seven. prompts into an AI thing. And that's. where that's where that billion came. from. It's it's I I find it I think the.

reason we're talking about it is because. I think if you just look at it at a. glance, it seems absurd. It seems like. AI slop. It seems like the end of. culture. And I think I think it's. probably the beginning of something. really interesting. We said before every. generation there are the same amount of. creative people. Like your generation is. no more creative than any other. generation. you're not so you know you. were just born in the era you were born. in and you reacted to that and you. created within the uh parameters of what. you were shown and this generation there. are a lot of hugely creative kids out.

there what what are they going to be. coming up with it's going to be crazy. because they've been taught that they. can do something that we were not taught. that we could do you know they have an. extra club in the bag you know and I. think it's I think it's fascinating so. listen of course it's mental fascinating. from the legal point of view I do. remember that um you know I once had a. legal case against Alton John who I. literally love but we have since put put. these differences aside but um there was. a legal case and I wrote a tiny sort of.

like a fake diary entry and he sued over. it. By the way, there's absolutely no. way he would ever have even seen it. It. was just like you know those lawyers who. just say someone's seen something on. page 87 of whatever. Um and. we won the case. The Guardian won the. case which was great. I was really. pleased they actually bought it because. it's it's just so expensive to do. something like that. But I remember the. QC who we had at the time saying um oh. gosh there is so little case law in our.

whole in what we have that relates to. irony and satire and this is now a piece. of about four pieces of case law that we. have. I was like, "Wow, my really stupid. diary about Elton fake diary about Elton. John has become significant in some way. because then it irony and satire have. more protection in law than they had. before because there's there is a. precedent and unbelievably tung tong is. going to be like a test case for what. you can copyright when created by AI and. what you what can be copyrighted in this.

new way of creating culture and this. kind of fan culture and you know how can. be can sort of be assigned back to the. creator and how I mean it's really. interesting that again I just find it. always quite funny when something super. absurd comes a piece of case law. >> one final question do you think there's. a way that any adults listening to any. adults listening to this I don't know if. any adults listen to this any adults. listening to this can find a way to. enjoy Italian brain or is its very.

design meant to exclude. >> I think it's very design is meant to. exclude but for me I mean if you listen. this podcast, you probably quite like. behind the scenes stuff. And so. therefore, you can look at it as a. cultural phenomenon. Yes, I think anyone. who listens to this podcast could be. like, yeah, I'm not going to be watching. it every day and trying to generate my. own stuff, but I like to see that it's. going on. I like to see that, you know, children still hate us. Right. Rightly, rightly. And yeah, I think yes, for. sure. I think that that is something. that anyone would be interested in. It. is a massive cultural phenomenon and you.

might as well take a look. Is it also. something that the orcright will at some. point um co-opt? >> It's interesting. Why haven't they? Because you you would think, wouldn't. you? I think because of most things. >> Yes. And especially kind of absurdist. and nihilist internet stuff. >> It's right up their street. >> They haven't yet. I love that you know. um Talera Tal does not actually work for. like Ben Shapiro or someone yet, but you. know, may may eventually. >> Oh, I I cannot wait for this generation. of kids. I mean, this is a great weapon.

to have. is such a great weapon to have. something that parents genuinely. dislike. Not even just parents, but. anyone in their 20ies. I cannot wait. till that generation of 45 and see what. it is that's upsetting them. Yeah, >> it will be it will be amazing. >> It'll come to you. >> It'll come to you. [music]. >> This episode is brought to you by our. friends at Lloyds. >> Now, let's talk about movie con artists. Who are your absolute favorites? >> Movies, TV, and book. My answer is the.

same and it's Tom Ripley. >> I was gonna say him. It's one of the. greatest characters of all time. >> So from the Talented Mr. Ripley books by. Patricia Highmith, there's five of them. So if you like Talented Mr. Ripley, you. are in luck. He is like one of the worst. men in the world, but you absolutely you. root for him at all times. >> Now, of course, deception makes for. excellent entertainment on screen. In. real life, when it's your bank account. being targeted, the charm somewhat. disappears. >> Yep. Lloyds have invested 100 million. pounds in Darkhorse anti-fraud.

technology which combines intelligent. monitoring and real-time alerts to keep. you safe from fraud. >> Click on their app or visit. lloydsbank.com to find out more about. how Lloyds protects you from fraud. AI. powered scam checks, voice biometrics, and realtime alerts are just some of the. ways Lloyds are protecting you based on. Lloyd's banking group data 2023 to 2025. >> [music].

>> Welcome back everybody to the rest is. entertainment. Now Marina, let's finish. today talking about Ari Emanuel. The um. probably the greatest agent in. Hollywood, certainly the most famous. one. Anyone who watched Entourage, Ari. Gold, Jeremy Pivven's character is based. on Ari Emanuel and and. >> in a much earlier iteration of him. And. now, you know, they own UFC, they own. he's enormous. >> He's enormous. And the reason that he. has been in the news is he's written a. memoir called Roll the Calls and it's. sort of his entire history of working in.

Hollywood and moving off in the world of. agencies and um everyone who's read it. said it's it's it's full of him being. angry about other people which makes for. very entertaining uh reading. Wrote it. with J Minger who wrote Spare with. Prince Harry and Shoe Dog with Phil. Knight and Open with Andre Agassi. Three. of the best non-fiction books. best like. he's the market lead obviously only the. best for Ari. >> the best of the best of the best. Uh so. Ari has written this book and Hollywood. is a buzz cuz it's it is it's very. gossipy and he doesn't pull any punches.

Uh if you want to know the sort of man. he is here's a couple of quotes says. rage is the air that I breathe. My. needle is in the red zone from the. moment I wake up and also if you want to. know what a great writer J Moringer uh. is Ari says this. He says, "My head is. full of battery acid and bumblebees.". So that's who he is. So he's he. represents um Oprah and the Rock and. Larry David. Used to represent everyone. >> It's everyone. They're enormous. I mean.

they're also CIA which is the sort of. their rival but they are an enormous. hugely powerful. >> He used to represent Donald Trump when. Donald Trump was the apprentice. He he. he got rid of him. >> in 2016 when Trump became president. although he's he still has some. connections. Anyway, the reason we're. talking about it is there was a scandal. in America this week. Um, his this book, Roll the Calls, went in at number two on. the New York Times bestseller list. Okay, so he's a New York Times. bestseller. A couple of days later, Publishers Weekly bring out their list, which is much more like an Nielsen.

figures. It's it's sort of the real. sales figures. New York Times, it's. slightly more opaque as to how they work. it out. Publishers Weekly came out and. it was nowhere in the top 25. >> Oh, can you buy your way onto a. bestseller list, Richard? Well, the. interesting thing is is if you look at. the actual figures, he sold I think just. about 18,000 hardbacks in his first. week, which is not terrible, not great. I mean, it's, you know, it's a it's a. perfectly reasonable. >> Let's be honest, he's the most powerful.

person in entertainment, but also no one. normal knows who he is or has ever heard. of him. >> Exactly. So, so, so 18,000 is good. >> He's not like, it's not like it's Prince. Harry or someone writing about Princess. >> Charles Spencer. Yes. which just did. unbelievable business last week. I mean, over 100,000 in a week. Anyway, so he. sells this 18,000 which should see him. in Publishers Weekly at number four, but. he is nowhere to be seen on Publishers. Weekly. >> because he's been excluded for what? >> Well, they have said that there are a. significant amount of bulk buys of this.

book which triggers their algorithm. which says this is not um allowed in the. charts. So the allegation is that he or. somebody in his employer or an agency. have been bulk buying the book to kind. of stuff the uh figures and therefore. >> there are certain bookshops that report. to the lists for the New York Times. [clears throat]. list and publishers know these. I'm not. saying that this is what's happened. here, but there is there have been. previous stories which I know you're. going to get to where people have known. which stores report and you make a bulk.

order from that store and some other, you know, so you can kind of you can. basically inflate it that way. >> Yeah, exactly. And and usually in the. New York Times, if they think there's. evidence of bog buying, they will put a. little dagger sign. So So they they'll. put you in the list, but there's a. little dagger sign. It some of the names. who have been accused of bog buying, it. won't shock you. They come from a. certain demographic. So, Pete Hexith, uh, Ted Cruz, uh, Donald Trump Jr., his. book, The Republican National Committee, spent $100,000 bulk buying that book to.

put it in the New York Times bestseller. list, but as I say, with a with with. with a little dagger next to it. Now. Ariman. >> Trump himself in the 80s. >> the art of the deal is there's various. arguments that say. >> that it's Trump it's always reported. that Trump bought tens of thousands of. copies of the art of the deal in the 80s. to make it into this kind of illusion of. an amazing kind of cultural artifact. >> Well that's why I want to talk about. this because I want to talk about the. difference between a bestseller with a. capital B and a bestseller with a little.

B. So if you at any point in the UK are. in any of the Sunday Times top 10 list. which is hardback fiction, hardback. non-fiction, paperback fiction, paperback non-fiction, if you are ever. for a single week, even at number 10 on. that list, you are a Sunday Times. bestseller and you for the rest of your. career. >> can write Sunday Times bestseller on the. cover of any book you want to do. >> Everybody does. >> Everybody does because it sounds great. Uh, and equally if you are ever in that. New York Times top 20 top 20 for the New.

York Times bestseller listers, you can. be a New York Times bestseller for the. rest of your career forever and ever and. ever and ever. It's just a thing that. you can have on the front cover of any. book that you do. As I say, if you're uh. talking at a conference, you can do it. If you're trying to sell the film rights. to something, it's a New York Times. bestseller. And that lasts forever. And. I've said before on this, if you can do. it in more than one territory, you're an. international bestseller. You can say. that you cannot write bestseller if you. have sold 5 million books but you've. never spent a week in that top 10. You.

can't do it. If if if in your first week. you didn't sell like crazy but you've. just sold a lot, you know, sold a little. a little for years and years and years, you are not a capital B bestseller, you're a small B bestseller, which just. means you are one of the bestselling. books. Whereas if you are a capital B, you are a bestseller, which is New York. Times and which is Sunday Times as well. So what's happened with uh Ari Emanuel. here? There are lots of reasons why you. might bulk buy a book is the truth. Especially if you're someone like Ari. Emanuel and you've got lots of clients. or you know you got a big company and.

you want to you want to buy it and give. it all as gifts for people. That's. absolutely allowed allowed to do. >> do this quite a lot if they've got a. book out. It's it's a whole thing. >> Yeah. You'll go to a conference and. there'll be like one on every single. chair and you know if you're smart at. all you will buy that through a. >> store that is that reports the list. >> Yeah. So there are ways of doing it. It's not always necessarily a kind of, you know, someone shady has gone into a. store and bought 40 copies here, 40. copies here, 40 copies here. Some. sometimes that does happen. And we're. not suggesting that's what's happened.

here, but certainly it it sounds like. 18,000 individuals have not thought, "Oh, I like the sound of that book. Here's $25." And gone into a store and. bought it and read it and liked it and. that's why he he he's a bestseller. So, there's lots of uh ways you can do it. Now, you can definitely game the system. in different ways. So the the most. famous one was a writer called Lari. Serum who wrote a book called Handbook. for Mortals and this was back in the. glory days of Twitter when Twitter was. very good at investigating things. Uh is. >> is this like a YA title?

>> A YA title. Yeah. And there was a book. called um The Hate You Give by Angie. Thomas which is which is a huge. bestseller in YA circles and everyone. loved. And then one week this book by uh. Larry Sum is at number one again weirdly. with about 18,000 copies sold very very. similar to um Roll the Calls and the. world of uh YA Twitter got into an. investigative mode because it is of. course possible to have a unexpected hit. but usually you'll know that it's going. to be hit in a couple of weeks. beforehand because there'll be buzz.

building or there'll be reviews of. movies or something like that. You you. sudden people are talking about it. start to see the sentiment or you start. to see like like someone has come out. and said, "Oh my god, this new book is. coming out." Or a big website said, "This new book is coming out." And so an. unknown author, it happens. >> pretty much every week. An unknown. author will be catapulted into the top. 10 because something has happened which. meant everyone's buying this book. >> With this book, the the Hamburg for. mortals, there was none of that at all. It was published by a publisher who had. never published a book before and. incidentally never published a book.

again. Um, anyone who read it were. saying, and again, there's such a lovely. community, the YA community. So, you. watch loads of videos about this and no. one's saying this is terrible. >> They're quite a monstrous community, the. YA community, aren't they? I mean, they. will hunt you down and punish you like. no one else on the internet. >> I think if you wrong them for sure, but. I think they're supportive of each. other. Anyway, so she she had written. this book uh and so people started doing. um their research into how this might. have been uh catapulted to number one in.

the New York Times list. So they were. ringing around lots of the NYT book uh. bestseller uh reporting book stores and. said, "Has anyone rung you about this. book?" They said, "Oh yes, yeah." And. there was a couple of books such as one. in Las Vegas that said, "Oh yes, some. someone rang and said, "Do we report to. the New York Times?" And we said, "Yes.". And they said, "Could I buy 87 copies?". Right. Uh and wow this pattern was. repeated you know over and over again. So this this this book was catapulted to. number one. Uh the IMDb page which is. still there uh it said oh yes it's um.

you know being adapted for a movie and. the author uh was going to play the star. of it. And also so you can you can see. exactly what was going on is they'd. knocked off this book and wanted all the. accuchants of having a hit and say this. is going to be the first in a kind of. five-part series and they're all going. to be made into movies and I'm going to. be the star of it. Uh and it was all. based on nothing. It was built on. nothing. She said she later said no it's. just a it's just an innovative business. model. I just thought I was going to be. selling so many at conventions I thought. I would buy them. Uh I think okay uh.

listen I get it. So she she she sort of. denied it but you can do it. You can buy. yourself onto those lists, but you are. almost always found out if you do it in. [clears throat] such a way. It's almost. impossible to go from nothing the. standing start to get on on those lists. >> Cuz Ari Emanuel is if again it's not. clear that this has occurred, but the. fact that it has even been written about. as a possibility given how powerful he. is. It's quite hard that people must. have some form of conviction about it if. they are writing it because he this is.

not somebody that you can just drag. across Twitter. Well, what they're. writing is that Publishers Weekly did. say that it triggered our warning thing, which means we left it off the list. So, you can definitely report that. I mean, you can then start looking into what. Publishers Weekly's algorithm says about. uh bulk orders. >> But, >> I really wanted to talk about this book, by the way, on the podcast because I'm. obsessed with him. And I rang or wrote. to the publisher in the UK for honestly. about every week for the whole summer. saying, "Anything yet? Can I have it. yet? Can I have a look at it yet? We'd.

really like to do something about the. podcast." And in the end, it was like. offered to me the day it came out. So, don't worry, I've already bought it off. Amazon. >> Anyway, I guess we're now talking about. it on the podcast. >> Yeah. >> For all the wrong reasons. >> Well, sort of. Although, you know, I I I. I do really want to read it because it. it does sound amazing in lots of. different ways. Um, but the key thing is. that anyone who does bog to try and get. in that top 10, which is not what we're. suggesting he's done, it's just saying. that's what public publishers weekly. have um suggested. Anyone who does do it.

is because of that prestige. is because. even if you're at number 10 in the UK or. number 20 in the states forever and ever. you are a New York Times bestseller or. you're a Sunday Times bestseller but. there are lots of ways because it's so. important to be on that list because it. can really make or break a career and. because funnily enough you don't have to. sell an awful lot to get on the list in. the UK there are certain weeks I mean. now this time of year it's you have to. sell a lot of copies to get anywhere. near any top 10 but in kind of. >> February March you know you can sell.

maybe 1100,200 hardbacks and get in that. top 10. So if you're a publisher uh and. you've got a book that's going to sell. 800 copies, you know, getting another. 300 copies could make your author. forever and ever and ever a Sunday Times. bestseller. You can have it on the the. the cover of all those things. That's. why you see so many authors doing book. tours in the first week of a book coming. out. It's all about that first week. >> Yeah. Well, we've both just done it. >> Yeah. It's all about that first week. you know, you you you want you want to.

hit big and hit quickly. And if you can. do a go around independent bookstores, bookshops all around the country and. sell three or 400 copies across, you. know, 10, 15, 20 events, that could make. the difference between being number 12. and being number nine. And so that's why. lots and lots of uh authors will do. that. >> Some of those independent bookshops will. put will agree to put the figures. through in the week of publication even. if it wasn't the event itself wasn't. necessarily in that week. Uh yeah, you. can all pre-sales count towards your. first week of sales. So anything that.

happens before publication week that all. it goes all in the first week for your. first week, which is why authors always. asking you to sort of pre-order and. stuff like that cuz cuz it does make a. huge difference. Um if you find yourself. in one of these big subscription boxes, there's romantis subscription boxes and. fantasy ones and crime ones. There have. been lots and lots of number ones which. are because you're in that. You'll see. something sells 12,000 copies cuz it in. subscription box which are these things. that you subscribe to and. >> uh they make they do really very very. beautiful covers and you know sprayed.

edges and things like that and and they. choose their books incredibly carefully. that's sort of a route into the top 10. as well and equally if you know Tesco's. other big supermarkets you know put you. in their book club that would be a route. into the top 10 but again it's very very. hard to get onto those list because they. know what their customers like so it has. really deliver. >> So there isn't a shortcut really. There. isn't there isn't like a simple shortcut. into that top 10. Hype doesn't do it.

Interviews don't do it anymore. You. know, TV interviews won't won't do it. anymore. But that is just about being a. big Bseller. >> Almost all of the books at the top of. the list now are not that. >> Week two is the really important part in. books because that is word. Everything. is word of mouth. Every trick in the. book, you can throw it away. >> Like box office hold. >> Like box office hold. Like for instance, there was you know. >> Yeah. >> You look at the correspondence by. Virginia Evans which is sold over half a. million copies now and it's just doing. insane numbers and that you know didn't. go crazy in its first week. It's just.

one of those books that everyone read. and everybody loved and that is a. bestseller with a small B. Uh and if you. have a bestseller with a big B you get. prestige. You can write bestseller for. the rest of your life on the front of. your book. If you are a bestseller with. a small B, you get loads of money. >> and people love your books and you get. loads of readers and it's you get to. write loads and loads more books. So. being a bestseller with a small B is. much more important. But if you are. high-profile, if you are somebody who a. publisher spent a lot of money on, then. getting a big bestseller with a big B.

can be very very very important. >> Any recommendations? >> Yes, I keep seeing slightly kind of. lukewarm reviews of the social reckoning. and I loved it. so much I thought was. great which is the Aaron Sawin followup. to the social network Jeremy Strong as. Mark Zuckerberg um Mikey Madison I I. absolutely adored it if you like Aaron. Sawin it is I mean. >> I watched this yesterday Kieran loved it. from start to finish yeah uh it's I I. felt like my only criticism I would love.

it to have been done for TV because I. think if you do it for Netflix then many. more people see it ideally before the. midterms and I think that it would it's. it's not going to make any I And it's, you know, it's effectively bombed. It's. But if you done it over three nights or. they'll never agree to three now, but. they might have agreed to you could they. could have split split it down or done. it in a slightly different way. I just. think more people would see it. If. you're going to the cinema to watch a. film about Facebook, you already shared. these views about Facebook. I would love. Discovery for this particular story to.

reach beyond the converted. Yes. >> But um yeah, >> I made the terrible mistake of going. along wishing to be entertained by a. film and I [laughter] And I hugely was. again there's so there's five or six. lines in there that you you just you. want to take out a notebook and write. them down. She just said, "God, you've. done it again." Just put something so. beautifully and so perfectly. And the. perform I thought the performances are. amazing. Um Billy Magnus in that movie I. thought was. >> unbelievable. Bill Burr as well uh who doesn't who.

hasn't acted an awful lot. Uh who anyway. I I I thought it was great. Can I also. sort of put uh put in a word we talked. uh a while ago about Strictly and. Betting in the new presenters. I think. they are bedded in. I thought this. week's show was absolute perfection. I. thought I thought it was brilliant. I I. said you have to producers know what. they're doing. Producers have a plan. Uh. and I I think it's it's it's it's really. uh firing on all cylinders now. And for. you, I'm going to do your recommendation. for you, which is your new endeavor. always on uh which is your columns uh.

pieces to video, loads, just loads and. loads of things that come out of your. brain on any given day all in one place. And we can find it. >> at marina.com. >> Well, that's my recommendation. >> Oh, thank you. >> Um, so this week we have a Q&A uh which. will be on Thursday, but we also have. two more Traitors reaction episodes. after Thursday and Friday's episodes. Thank everyone has been so lovely about. those gang busters. I know it's. incredible. >> I'm really glad we split it down to per. episode now.

>> We I mean, you have to so much to talk. about. >> Yes, there is. But the god the amount of. messages I get with really. sociologically kind of forensic. examinations of group dynamics on that. show. But it's it's it's those are lots. of fun to do. Right. So we do do one do. one on Thursday, do one on Friday. Q&A. as well. And our bonus episode this week. is the latest episode of our history of. Big Brother with Kate Lauder and Tim HS. the man behind it all. >> Right. See you. I assume it's see you. tomorrow. There's a lot going on. >> Talk about always on.

>> Yeah. This is exactly it's Yeah, it's. it's a busy time. This is like our World. Cup uh celebrity traders. >> Yeah, it is. It's like we're like Gary. Mer and Allan in New York. >> We need a kitchen island. >> It's really like tappers all over. >> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter]. >> All right. >> See you next time. >> See you next time. [music].