Zohran Mamdani on Netanyahu, New York and Whether A.O.C. Should Be President | The Interview

Sometimes politics feels like it's a. hobby only some can afford and I don't. want it to be that way. [music]. I'm Lulu Garcia Navaro and today I'm. interviewing New York City Mayor Zoran. Mdani. In his first 6 months in office, Mayor. Mani's been riding high [music] and has. started delivering on the issue that. defined his campaign, affordability. [music] He's frozen the rent on nearly a. million apartments. We're so excited. that the rent guidelines board decided.

to freeze the rent for the first time in. New York City history for 2 years. >> And he's made progress on universal. child care. >> Going to make childcare free for 2,000. [music] kids this fall, 12,000 kids next. fall, every single 2-year-old by the end. of four years. >> What's more, he's recently endorsed a. slate of progressive congressional. candidates who swept their New York. primaries to the dismay of the. Democratic political establishment. You. can't fulfill an affordability agenda. for the most expensive city in the.

country without partners at every level. of government. >> Of course, Manny has [music] many, many. critics. >> Mammi is telling everybody he's going to. give everything away for free. >> He's a psychopath. >> He's a communist, too, by the way. He. kind of reminds me of a young Fidel. How's it going? >> Good. Hi. >> How are you? >> Good. >> But he's now undeniably a national. political force. So, just how does he. plan on using all this power? Here's. [music]. my conversation with New York City Mayor. Zoran Mamdani. Welcome uh to the interview. Thank you.

so much for being here. I really. appreciate you coming here. >> Thank you so much for having me. >> uh on a day of the World Cup. Um I don't. know if you heard uh some of my. colleagues cheering in in. >> Yes. I think there's about 20 minutes. left in the France Spain game. [laughter]. >> Yeah. Yeah. So sorry that we're. interrupting perhaps your viewing of. this, but not at all. But yeah, um. appreciate the time. I was going um to. do this whole interview without. mentioning uh President Trump, but as.

often happens, he tends to enter the. chat regardless of um one's intentions. And President Trump recently shared a. vid a video by Michael Savage, um who's. a proTrump pundit, calling for you to be. criminalized and deported. And my question is, what does it mean. when the president of the United States. shares a sentiment like that? And and. how do you deal with it? I. [sighs and gasps] I think that it's part. of. the corrosion of political and public.

life that this is frankly something that. I don't even blink at anymore because. it's become. >> in many ways a norm of the last few. years. And I also think that Americans are. hungry for a very different kind of. politics. One where disagreement is a. part of it. Deportation and demonization. is not. >> Does it. worry you that it is normal um and that. by not reacting it normalizes it more?

Or do you worry that he's trying to go. you into reacting? I don't want to be. part of the sort of cycle of that. I'm. just wondering how you calculate it. I I think that for all of the. fear-mongering around democratic. socialism, the best response is to show. what it actually means. And what we've. shown over the last 6 months is exactly. that. We've shown that a city with a. democratic socialist vision is one that. paves more than 170,000 potholes, 50,000.

more than the prior administration by. this point. It's a city that has. delivered the lowest recorded number of. shootings and shooting victims and. murders in New York City's history. It. is a city that is on a pathway to. universal child care, saving thousands. of parents more than $20,000 a year. And. it's a city that is doing all of these. things while fighting for the people who. are often left behind. Workers who we've. secured more than $10 million for. tenants, more than $64 million. These.

are all indicators of what is so scary. to a right-wing that has built its. entire power and framework on the idea. of debating who should be left behind. >> One last question on this. When these. kinds of attacks against you, and I can. hear you deliberately not trying to. personalize it, not trying to respond to. it, but does it impact you and your. security for example? I mean, we've seen. other people who get targeted like this.

verbally. Um, it has an actual impact. There's more threats. There's more um. focus. So, >> there there are threats, the kinds of. which that sadly became familiar over. the course of the campaign. I am lucky. in that I'm protected by the best of the. best in in our NYPD. And I'm also concerned because if these. threats have changed my life and have. changed the lives of those that I love, I often wonder about the threats to.

those whose names we don't even know. Because what is so terrifying about the. normalization of political violence is. not even just those to whom it's. directed towards, but what it makes. acceptable towards any other in this. city, in this country. And that is a. real fear that I have as we try and show. what a city can look like where everyone. belongs. That there are those firmly. invested in a a kind of division that is.

at odds with that. >> Did you at some point have to make peace. with the fact that you are a target? >> I don't know if you can make peace with. it. I think. you can come to. expect it. You can come to rationalize. it as if it is part of what it is that. you do. And look, I grew up and I would. hear politicians say things about their.

family, how they didn't sign up for it, this that and the other. And when you're. on the outside and you're hearing that, it sounds at at a certain point to be. quite cliche. And when you're living it, you realize the depth of that sentiment. that. we sign up for public life shouldn't. mean that we sign up for threats or. violence, but at least we made a choice. And then there are those that we love. who did not make a choice other than to. love us. And yet somehow those threats,

that violence also becomes a part of. their life. And. it has seeped into the lives of many. more people across the city, across the. country. And you know, I grew up in New. York City. To me, disagreeing is one of. the most New York things you can do. Sometimes you'll hear two people and it. sounds like they're fighting, but that's. just how they say I love you in New York. City. Mhm. >> And so it's not to say that we shouldn't. have that kind of disagreement or. dissent or debate and even that it not.

be vehement, but what it has become. instead. It it actually silences that. debate out of fear. >> We're talking a few weeks after some. pretty big political victories for you. Uh you went out on a limb and endorsed. several Democratic Socialist candidates. who then won their primaries. And after. they won, you said you wanted to send a. national message and that it sounded. like you want to clearly be heard beyond. New York City. Why?

>> You know, we are in some ways distinct. here in New York City. We are the. wealthiest city in the wealthiest. country in the history of the world. And. I also know that the struggles of. working people here in this city, a city. where one in four are living in poverty, are not unique. I know that working. people across this country are facing. those same struggles. And for too long. it has felt like our party, the. Democratic Party, that the only answer. we have is to say that we are not the. Republican party. The only answer we. have is a response to the cruelty of the.

federal administration. But we also have. to have a vision of what comes after. this administration. And I think that at. the heart of that has to be a vision for. that working person. And that's why I. think it is so critical to speak about. that not just here in New York City, but. frankly anywhere where those people are. struggling. >> And you feel like because of your. position in the party, um you are at. this point one of the most visible. people that you're the person to impart.

that. I think that message frankly is coming. from New Yorkers themselves. >> and we should listen to them when they. vote for Dar Alisa, for Claire, for. Brad, when they vote for all five of the. state legislative candidates that I. endorsed that won their races. So much. of what has often been discussed as if. it is an intellectual debate is in fact. something that can change the material. reality of working New Yorkers. M. >> and I think that's what's been so.

incredible about being able to serve as. the mayor of of the greatest city in the. world is it's a chance to show that you. can fight for the people that the right. has left behind and you can do it by. asking yourself what are the challenges. they face and then asking your team how. can we deliver on those things. >> Do you see yourself as a Democrat or a. Democratic socialist? Because you said. our party and obviously you ran as a. Democrat. >> I am both. I am I'm a Democrat and I'm a. Democratic socialist. And I think that.

so much of what makes me proud to be a. Democrat is looking at what our party. used to stand for. And you think about. the four freedoms, you think about FDR, you think about the New Deal. Those are. at the core of of what our party's. identity is. And yet it feels like to. experience it, you have to read about. it. You can't see it around you anymore. And that isn't something that I'm. willing to accept. And I know that many. feel similarly. >> I'm curious how you're planning to use.

your political capital. I mean, are you planning on getting involved in. races outside of New York? >> Eventually. >> My focus right now is on New York City. >> But eventually, [laughter]. >> I would say that for now, this this is. where I'm looking because I think that. >> you seen Have you ever seen New York? >> Yeah. But you keep on answering this. question in this particular way and I. understand why. But it, you know, you. have some momentum and if you're wanting.

to sort of send this message beyond New. York, >> the question obviously is how and when. >> I am still seeing the world like that. cover of the New Yorker where it's New. York, it's New Jersey, and then it's the. rest of the world. Um, I think that my focus is on on doing the. work here, but I also think that New. Yorkers have sent a message and we've. also seen that it's not specific in that.

we've seen these kinds of victories in. New Jersey, in Colorado, in California. Uh, when it comes to my endorsements, I. was proud to make those eight. endorsements and and I'm excited to see. what they do next. >> After those endorsements, you said 2028. um begins now. I mean, what role would. you like to play in 2028? I think to. continue to be honest about the. struggles that New Yorkers are facing. and the importance of a vision that. responds to them. And. you know, sometimes.

politics feels like it's a hobby only. some can afford and I don't want it to. be that way. Politics determines what. people can afford and we need to see a. recognition of that and an actual. platform of how we will deliver that. affordability. We in fact have to be. able to say what are you going to do. about housing? What are you going to do. about childare? What are you going to do. about the cost of groceries? I think. what's so exciting is that cities have. often been discussed as laboratories of. democracy that we can actually show that.

this isn't a fantasy. I think there's. cheers going on. I'm not sure what's. happened, [laughter] but we'll find out. later. >> We'll find out. I think Spain probably. won. >> My goodness. >> Um, [laughter and gasps]. who are you rooting for? >> I was thankfully a little unengaged in. today's game. Okay. >> A lot of the teams I rooted for, they. tend to lose now, but now is the time. for favorites. I I want to stay on this. just a little bit longer because one of. the people who is rumored to be. considering a run for president is.

obviously Alexandria Cascortez and. there's been reporting that you. coordinated with AOC in your New York. endorsements. Do you consider that to be. a partnership? >> Absolutely. I consider it to be a. partnership and I also consider her to. be an inspiration. I had the privilege. of having been represented by her in. Congress. Before I was the mayor, I was. an assembly member uh in an overlapping. part of her congressional district in. Atoria in Long Island City. And I think. she has shown what it looks like to. fight for working people. >> Do you consider it an alliance sort of.

going forward that she would endorse you. know Abdul Alad and you know Michigan. and elsewhere and and you endorse here. in New York? I think that she she makes. her own decisions and I think they're. they're decisions that many of us look. to and are inspired by. >> and and I'm excited to continue to work. together because for a long time. politics has been understood as if it is. about individuals and what's so exciting. is that at the heart of that partnership.

is a belief in the collective and even. if you think about the greatest mayor I. would argue in New York City's history. he could not have achieved what he did. without the partnership of FDR. >> And that dream of of having partners is. also what drove me to make the decision. to endorse those three congressional. candidates because you can't fulfill an. affordability agenda for the most. expensive city in the country without. partners at every level of government. >> So, it's interesting that you mentioned. that partnership with FDR. Would you.

endorse AOC for president if she runs? Because that obviously would be a very. clear partnership. >> I'm excited to see what decision she. makes. Uh, in terms of endorsements, the. ones that I'm focused on are the ones. that I've just made. >> I mean, there's been some recent. disagreement in the DSA, um, the. Democratic Socialist of America, your. party. >> What is a socialist without. disagreement? >> Yeah. Surrounding her endorsement. Um, do you think you would endorse her. independently of your party? >> I Well, first I would say DSA is an. organization. Um, and my party is the.

Democratic Party. Okay. >> And my my organization is is DSA. >> Okay. And I would say that I'm I'm I'm. still very much focused in this year, but I do believe that it. we all have to take a step back and. appreciate what it is that. she means to so many across this. country. And the reason for it is the. work that she has done. >> I think she'd make a good president. >> I think she would make a good anything. I think she's a great congresswoman. And. I think no matter what she decides to.

do, she's going to bring those same. qualities to whatever that work is. >> So, we've talked about your endorsements. and I would like to talk in particular. about Dar Lisa Aila Chevier um who ran. successfully against Adriano Espe at the. head of the Hispanic Caucus. You know, he's a former undocumented. immigrant. He has strong progressive. credentials, dismantle ICE, supportive. of Medicare for all.

Did you privately promise him that you. were going to support his reelection. campaign during your campaign for mayor? >> I told him that I appreciated his. support when he endorsed me in the. general election after I won the. Democratic primary. And the promise that. I made to New Yorkers was to use any. tool that I had to further that. affordability agenda. And in Daria Lisa, I see a congressional candidate, soon to. be a congresswoman, who will be someone. who really has built a campaign on a.

vision of babies, not bombs. And I think. that that speaks to what it means to. invest in affordability and also reckon. with the bankruptcy that has typified a. lot of our politics, especially when it. comes to our foreign policy. And you. were asking me earlier about political. capital. To me, I think the point of. political capital is to spend it to. deliver material change. And these are. not intellectual arguments. These are. the ones that will determine whether or. not these districts look different in.

the years to come. When it comes to Dar. Alisa's district, this is one of the. poorest congressional districts in the. United States of America. And as I. walked that district with her, we were. discussing the amount of money that our. federal government sends in the billions. of dollars to the Israeli military. And. as we were doing so, a man came out of. out of a bodega with his hands full with. two packages of Huggies. And you see. what the priorities are of people living. in the district. And yet you see what. the priorities are of federal policy. that represents the district. And you. see this chasm. And the more that you.

tolerate that kind of a chasm, the more. that you tell people that politics is. something that they shouldn't deem as if. relevant to their life, something to. tune out as opposed to something to be a. part of. I mean, it's interesting that. you mention Israel because is the reason. you didn't endorse Espayad, his. relationship with Apac, the pro-Israel. lobby, his longtime support of Israel, was that like sort of the seinal thing. that for you was a differentiator? >> I think these are all important factors. I think the need for moral clarity in in.

our politics, to quote Congresswoman. Okasiocortez, is something that speaks to a wide. variety of policies and also applies to. our foreign policy when it comes to the. funding of the Israeli military. >> And you saw in the final weeks of that. race, Apac spending a significant amount. of money to try and stop Dar Alisa. And. what you see when you speak to the. constituents of that district is a very. different hope and vision for the place.

they call home and also the country that. they've helped to build. And it's hard. to explain to a New Yorker why their. needs are not even being discussed. And. yet we have billions of dollars. to kill civilians halfway across the. world. I mean earlier we were talking. about the World Cup and you know we'll. be watching the games here and then. you'll look to the news and you'll find. that even someone who had gone to Gaza. on a relief mission to set up watch.

parties was then killed by the Israeli. military. There is no. respit from a genocide no matter even in. a moment of joy for the entire world. I want to understand your point of view. on what political weight you you give. the Israeli issue because you are very. clear about where you stand, but I'm. wondering how you apply it to sort of. how you look at other. >> political actors. Um the left-wing. streamer Hassan recently said, and.

I'm quoting here, "Someone who will not. say the truth about Israel's genocide. will not stand with you and fight for. you for your healthcare, for your. housing. It's that simple." Do you agree. with that statement? I think. what we have seen from New Yorkers, what. we have seen from Americans when we talk. about this hunger for a new kind of. politics, it's a hunger to move beyond. the bankruptcy that characterizes a lot. of politics today. And it is hard to. find a more bankrupt. policy approach than what our country.

has done to Gaza and to Palestine and. how it hasn't been specific to any one. party. It's been again and again an. insistence to tell New Yorkers and to. tell Americans that what they are seeing. is not something that they should in. fact either be concerned by or believe. in. And. when you talk about the rupture in trust. that comes from that, >> it is hard to then turn to another issue. and say, "Believe me here.".

>> And what I've found time and again is. that that trust, you have to be able to. maintain it. It's not to say that you. have to agree on everything, but there. has to be an honesty. And. too often you'll find that there are far. more Congress people who will privately. tell you that something is a genocide. than publicly announce it to be so. And. so long as there's an understanding of a. difference in what people believe and. what they're willing to say, there will. be a skepticism and frankly a despair.

amongst those considering whether or not. to engage themselves in politics. So. should the litmus test for a politician. who wants to be part of your coalition. be their views on the Gaza war and their. commitment to calling it a genocide? >> I think it's an important part. I I. wouldn't say that there's a specific. litmus test as to. creating a cookie cutter of a person. that I would endorse in any one which. seat. What I would say is that you have. to have a clear vision of being able to.

describe things as they are and being. able to fight for that which working. people have been denied. >> But can it include those who support. Israel and support America's support of. Israel? >> I think when you asked me earlier of. what is my party, I've said the. Democratic Party. >> I'm asking you though. >> Yes. And and my point is not what's in. the Democratic Party. Understood. My. point is that the importance of a big. tent, it's critical not just in how we. describe ourselves as what we belong to,

but also that we can work with those. with whom we might not have agreement on. every single issue. And you can even see. in the administration that I've put. together, it's not an administration. where at every job interview I ask. someone, "What are your thoughts about. Israel and Palestine?". >> Frankly, it has very little to do with. most of the things that I'm hiring for. And what we want is to show that you are. looking for expertise. You are looking. to deliver on the ambition of your. policy platform and to build a team.

that's able to do so. And when it comes. to my endorsements of Congress members. or those running for state uh. legislative seats, they have to show a. vision of the world that speaks to that. despair and also addresses how you would. actually deliver something different. >> And you felt that Espayat didn't do. that? >> No. One other question on this. Former. vice president um and presidential. candidate Kla Harris called you. recently. She's reportedly reaching out. to pro Palestinian groups or people with.

pro Palestinian views. She's, you know, considering another run for president. Reportedly, as Biden's VP, she is closely associated. with. America's support of Israel during the. Gaza war. Do you think she can regain. trust on that issue? [snorts]. >> I think that the first step for anyone. looking to run is to be honest about. what we see today and what it would take. to change that. And when I say what it. would take, one of the common features.

between all of the people that I. endorsed for Congress was that each one. of these candidates spoke about how they. would sign on to the block the bombs. legislation. It speaks about an. unwillingness to continue to be. complicit in in a genocide. >> and we're talking about billions of. dollars in material support. So I think. the first step for for any presidential. candidate looking to earn the trust of. people across the country is a. recognition of what our policy has. wrought and what a different policy.

would deliver. >> Did you hear that from her? I think that. everyone is early in their. considerations and you know I I truly. appreciated the vice president reaching. out. >> and I think that it is a critical part. of this early stage. >> You know um pro Palestinian voices were. not allowed to speak at all during her. 2024 uh democratic convention. Um I I. heard a lot from. uh people in the activist community. around that. they felt very betrayed by. the fact that they were not allowed to.

um engage publicly. >> that their voices they felt were. silenced. How damaging do you think that. was for her? [snorts]. You know, >> I think what people wanted in that. moment was to know that their voice too. belonged in this party that we call. home. [clears throat]. And I remember following along here from. New York City and just refreshing. Twitter as I would see for the updates. and Ruard Man and a number of others who. were gathered outside hopeful that their.

voice would be heard. And what I'm. thankful for is that now today that. voice is being heard. And it's being. heard not only because there are those. who have it that are entering into the. halls of Congress, but also because. those who have long stood up for the. belief in a universality when it comes. to human rights are now being treated as. core parts of a political conversation, whereas before it wasn't even a. conversation that was often permitted to. be had.

>> Do you think the Democratic Party can. become the party of uh Palestinian. rights? I think it can become the party. of human rights for all people and that. must also include Palestinians. I think. people are tired of exceptions being. drawn. And we know that in politics, the. more often you draw an exception, the. more likely you are to draw another one. And people want consistency. They want. to know that when they speak to you, they don't have to call you the next day. to see if the wind is blowing. differently how you're going to answer. them, but that they can trust you that. this is something that you in fact do. believe in. >> Last question on this topic. Israel's.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is. perhaps planning to visit New York for. the UN General Assembly. Uh you pledged. during your campaign and after you won. um to order his arrest to comply with. the International Criminal Court. Warrant. What will happen if he comes in. September? >> I believe that Prime Minister Netanyahu. belongs in the H. He's a war criminal. who has been charged by the. International Criminal Court. And. what you will find is that is an opinion. that is held by many purely because of.

what his actions have wrought over these. last many years. I've also said that I. will follow the laws that we have here. in New York City. Uh because I believe. that there is an importance in following. the law as a leader who presides over. our city and that's something that I. plan to do. >> Meaning I'm sorry I don't understand. what that means. >> Meaning that whatever the law allows me. to do in New York City, that's what we. will do. But we won't be writing our own. laws to that end. What does the law. allow you to do? >> That's an active conversation with our.

legal department in seeing what the. prospects are we have here in our. municipality. However, what we've seen. at the national level is a desire. sometimes to write your own laws, to go. outside of the bounds of legality. That's not something we have an interest. in. >> I mean, normally when people come um to. a UN General Assembly, they're granted a. sort of amnesty because it is the seat. of the United Nations. Is that what. you're thinking that you'll honor or. you're actively looking to see if you. can actually arrest him? >> I think we are looking at all of our. legal obligations and one of them is.

with regards to the United Nations, but. the other part of this is is we're we're. not talking about a personal assessment. of Benjamin Netanyahu. We're talking. about the International Criminal Court. and the fact that they have a warrant. out for this prime minister's arrest. And I think it's it's important to talk. about the weight that that has as a. charge and also that as the mayor of New. York City, I'll be following the laws of. New York City. >> Okay. One of the things that I really wanted. to ask you about also was an.

understanding of your sort of broader. vision for your coalition now that. you're getting involved in federal races. because. Daria Lisa again avails. all deportations even of violent. criminals. She called borders a. philosophical concept. [gasps]. How do you view, for example, the issue. of border security? What border policy. should America have? You know, [snorts].

should immigrants be able to claim. asylum at the US Mexico border? Should. they be able to enter the country while. their claims are being reviewed? >> I think some of what you're describing. is answered by the law. And I believe. that we should follow the law when it. comes to asylum cases. I also believe. that we should have a border policy that. both is secure and one that is also. defined by some humanity. You know, when. we talk about immigration, it's often bandied about as just a.

political subject for debate. ICE is an agency that has terrorized. Americans across this country and others. that live in this country. Just the. other day, a man wasn't even 30 years. old, said goodbye to his wife and his. child, and moments later was shot by ICE. agents in Maine. And this was. not even a month after a man was killed.

in Texas. And so when we're talking. about all of this, I often think about. it through a prism of legality, consistency, and humanity, and an. understanding that immigration policy. doesn't just affect those without. status. It affects an entire city. You. know, I went to a Dominican barber shop. in Harlem, and the owner was telling me. that everyone in the barber shop had. status. They all had status. And yet.

most of them were terrified to come to. work because they know that for so much. of ISIS operations, it has little to do. with legality. It has to do with. profiling and it has to do with a vision. of creating the largest deportation. machine this country has ever seen and. of a notion of this country where so. many of us who call it home would have. no place in it any longer. >> I think the issue of deportations is um. one you've been pretty consistent on. I'm trying to understand what your idea.

of the border would be because obviously. the people you endorsed in federal races. will have an impact on any legislation. to do with the border and the Democratic. party, you know, has struggled um. gaining support. over its border policies considering. what happened under the Biden. administration where you had, you know, the border as some would describe it. being overrun, millions of people coming. in in an unauthorized fashion and that. had impacts here in New York City.

>> Um, you know, a lot of the city was. overstretched. Um, resources were. overrun and it made people very unhappy. So, again, I I would just like to. understand what a what a humane border. policy looks like for you. >> I I don't believe that secure and humane. are at odds. I don't believe that the. only way to provide immigration. enforcement is through ICE. I think. often times we are forced into these.

false choices. >> Would you have asylum seekers be able to. you know for example ask for asylum at. the US Mexico border? >> What is the law today? What are they. legally entitled to do? I mean the law. today I mean under President Trump the. law today is that they're not. >> but in terms of international. obligations in terms of. >> and that has meant that the border has. seen a dramatic drop in illegal. crossings. So I guess that is the. tension that a lot of people see. I. think that what we've found from the.

Republican administration has been a. desire to make any and all immigration. illegal. >> And I sit before you as one of the first. immigrant mayors of our city in. generations. >> I lead a city where of 8 and a half. million people, more than 3 million are. immigrants. And so when we're talking. about legitimate claims to asylum, I. think that those should be honored. When. we're talking about immigration. enforcement, I think that it should be.

humane. I talk about our pride in being. a sanctuary city in terms of the. policies that we practice. I'll give you. an example of those policies. We are. willing to work with the federal. government on. more than 170 serious crimes if someone. has been convicted of them. What we are unwilling to do is to. participate in civil immigration. enforcement with a federal government. that has said openly it wants to deport.

a vast majority of people for crimes. that we will never even know. >> That where is where I think I see the. tension. >> Have you ever been to the US Mexico. border? >> No. Um, you've been in office for half a year. You have very high approval ratings, 58%. in New York City, according to the most. recent Sienna poll, and that is a number. that has actually gone up, which I think. is unusual in our current political um.

moment. You've made strides on two out. of your three central campaign promises. A start on universal child care, the. rent freeze, free buses are not there. yet, but you've just launched a whole. new project on making the buses action. plan. >> Yes. >> 175 routes up to six minutes saved per. way. [laughter]. >> I think it people find it um heartening. that you nerd out on this stuff. >> because it makes a difference. You know, sometimes we treat these like. statistics, but think about for an.

average New Yorker what they could do. with 12 more minutes if they're taking a. bus to and from. >> You know, as I was thinking about. your project and the ambitions that you. have laid out to the city, I was wondering, and I know this is a. little bit of an absurd question, but. >> come on. >> Come on. Let's do it. >> Let's do absurdity. But if you had a. magic wand, [laughter] no, but really, I. know this sounds like a little bit. absurd, but I do think it speaks to if.

money was no object. >> and you could enact anything, what would. you do? >> I'd be doing the same things I'm doing. now. >> Oh, come on. >> It would just be a lot easier, [laughter] I think. No, but one thing. that you could do, >> I think one thing I'm very passionate. about is universal child care. >> So, that would be the that would be the. thing. >> That would be the thing. And the reason. that would be the thing is right now in. our city to afford child care for a.

2-year-old as a family, you need to make. $334,000. >> I'm a parent. >> That's an extraordinary amount of money. And that's an amount of money where. again if you as a family you're making. $300,000, you're still not hitting it. And so what we have often described as. success, if that is unable to meet the. bare minimum of what it means to raise a. family in this city, that's a real. problem. And the reason I say is, you.

know, it would be faster is obviously. we're talking about a multi-billion. dollar investment. This year we secured. 1.2 two billion going to make child care. free for 2,000 kids this fall, 12,000. kids next fall, every single 2-year-old. by the end of four years. But if I had a. magic wand and I could say wingardium. leviosa or whatever spell we're. specifically referring to in this. moment, uh, yes, I would love to make it. free in an instant without having to. take the time of the years of building.

what's necessary to win that, but I. think we're already showing it can make. a real difference. >> How about you? What would you do? If I. could do anything, that's a good. question. What would I do if I could do. absolutely anything? >> It's a hard question, isn't it? Yeah. >> Live in my shoes for a minute. >> Yeah. I'm going to live in your shoes. for a minute, you know? I mean, personally, um, more park space, more. outdoor space. >> I thought I couldn't get that question. wrong and now I feel like I did.

>> Yeah. [laughter] just I mean living in. cities um and having seen other cities. that are livable um it the places where. you can gather and feel like you can. breathe and be outside and give you. respit. >> What's your favorite park in New York. City? >> What's my favorite Central Park, man? What else? >> Are you going to give me try a little. harder coming? No, I'm not going to try. a [laughter] little harder. This is This. is not This is me interviewing. >> Apologies. Apologies. I apologize. I. should know my I should know [laughter]. my lane. >> Stay in your lane, Mob Donnie. Um,

I want to talk about New York's economy. because much of it is built around Wall. Street, finance, real estate. How important is it for you to have a. good relationship with those sectors? And how would you say your relationship. is with those sectors? >> I think it's important. and what I have. in common with leaders of those sectors, even amidst disagreements that we'll. have over fiscal policy, because I. believe that we can raise taxes a little.

bit more on the wealthiest New Yorkers. to ensure that everyone can afford life. in this city. What brings us together is. both a belief in this city and a. commitment to its continued vitality. You know, the other day I went to the. announcement of the new American Express. headquarters at two world trade center. and one thing that stood out to me was. that these business leaders, they're not just making decisions on the.

basis of dollars and cents. They're also. making decisions on the basis of. investing in this city and in what the. city represents. There's so many. businesses that could have walked away. from this city after 9/11 and they. instead chose to double down in their. commitment to it. >> I think everyone who has heard you talk. about American Express and and the bank. seem like that's all they talk about. >> No, no, no. But you've talked about it. recently and [laughter] other other big. um organizations um that are, you know, going to be employing people anthropic,

etc., etc. have wondered how does a democratic. socialist like yourself view the role of. business and private industry in the. economy? [gasps] I mean, what does a. socialist economic development look. like? Because. the way you're talking, you sound like. any capitalist mayor. >> Oh my god. Look, I think. I think we have to go beyond the typical. indicators of what makes a strong.

economy. I think we also have to measure. whether a working person can breathe. And yes, it's the wealthiest city and. it's also a city where one in four are. living in poverty. So, I will always. celebrate continued investment in this. city. And I'll also look to ensure that. more and more New Yorkers can be a part. of those benefits. Because when we talk. about our vision for this city, the affordability agenda,

it's that those who help build it can. also live in it. And right now, there. are so many working people where if you. ask them where they live, they won't. tell you a neighborhood across the five. burrows. They'll tell you a neighboring. state. They'll tell you they live in. Jersey City. They'll tell you they live. in Connecticut. They'll tell you they. live in Pennsylvania. And I think that's how a city becomes a. museum, not a living, breathing. testament to the possibility of working. people. >> And I'll just tell you, if you allow me, um, what we've seen is in the first 5.

months of this year, we had an addition. of more than 21,000 jobs. What [snorts]. we saw in 2025 is that we had more than. 48,000 jobs in the New York City metro. area. Of any metro area in the country, it's the fastest growing one. And so we. see that we're headed in the right. direction. >> I mean, to note that the city's recent. job numbers aren't particularly strong. The unemployment rate is comparatively. high. Where do the good paying jobs.

come for come from? um you know because. for example I think it has been noted. that you have an appointed ahead of the. economic development corporation which. is an important tool that New York City. mayors have for development and job. creation and there has been a sense that. perhaps that is sending a message to the. business community that you aren't as. interested in those kinds of. partnerships those public private.

partnerships as perhaps other mayors. have been. I'm incredibly interested in. them and we are in the final processes. of interviews for that role and I'm also. someone who believes that the decision. you make is one that's important not. just for the narrative purposes but for. what that person can deliver and that. they should be someone that you're fully. confident in exactly what it is they're. going to bring to the table. >> What do you want them to bring to the. table? >> I want them to bring a set of skills. that can deliver on economic development. in a way that goes beyond what we've. seen in recent years. And what that.

means is someone who understands what we. were saying earlier that the strength of. an economy can not just be measured by. the statistics that we often use but. also of whether it is reaching working. people who are typically left out of. these kinds of conversations. And I will. say that even amidst the search for a. new head of our economic development. corporation, the EDC continues to be one. of our focuses and they continue to do. the work uh especially when it comes to. our agenda of delivering city-run.

grocery stores. That is work that is. currently within the portfolio of EDC. and that they've done a very good job in. moving forward. >> Um. let's talk about policing. >> please. >> as well. Absolutely. >> Murders and shootings are now at. historic lows. >> Um, >> but there is I think. >> I knew there was a butt coming. >> No, there's not a butt. There's a. [sighs and snorts]. there's a another tension there that I.

think people are trying to understand. You know, the DSA has been very vocally. skeptical of the tactics of the NYPD and. of your police commissioner, Jessica. Tish. Um, she stayed on from the Adams. administration. She's a pro-Israel. billionaire. She's a technocrat. She's. been very successful at her job. And I am curious because you have been. publicly very supportive of her. But you. also just nicked 600 new police officers.

and it has been reported that part of. the reason for that was because of. complaints from the DSA. I mean, do you. see a tension between your organization. and your police commissioner? >> Well, I think no matter who you're. describing in that sequence, you're. describing New Yorkers who care deeply. about public safety. And. in the many words that you were. describing our police commissioner with,

the two most important I think were very. successful. And it comes back to when. we're talking about the lowest number of. murders and shootings and shooting. victims in the recorded history of our. city. That. it means the world to New Yorkers. because it also means that there are far. fewer tables where there's an empty. seat, far fewer families where grief. hovers over them every single day. And. still there is more work to be done.

because so long as there is crime, there. is work to be done. And when it comes to. the question of the size of our police. force, uh, you know, I've said time and. again that the police force that has. delivered these kinds of record lows is. the one that I trust to continue. delivering that kind of public safety. and that we're going to be able to do. that while also delivering two command. centers in the Bronx the way that we do. in Queens and Brooklyn and Manhattan and. also providing additional training to. officers. and to be able to do that.

within our authorized headcount that. also comes as part of a focus across. city agencies on how to deliver on. savings at a time of inheriting a 12. billion fiscal deficit. I I would like. to ask you just your own personal. evolution if there has been an evolution. because you came in, >> you know, saying that you were going to. get rid of the strategic response group, that you were going to. reduce the sort of enforcement of fair.

evasion and other small infractions that. overwhelmingly impact people of color. Meanwhile, NYPD arrests of those kinds. have sort of skyrocketed. And my. question is, do you see yourself having. evolved on some of these issues? Because. obviously, as always happens, the. reality of having to keep a very. complicated large city like New York. safe might be different than what you. imagined coming into it. I don't I ran.

on a vision where public safety would be. something where New Yorkers need not be. asked to choose between safety and. justice. And yes, I spoke about the. importance of disbanding the strategic. response group, which is a group that is. tasked with both responding to the. exercising of the first amendment at. protests and responding to terror. threats. M. >> and I said that I did not believe it was. important necessary to couple these two.

responses. They should in fact be. decoupled. >> I continue to believe that and I. continue to have conversations with our. police commissioner about how we can. deliver on the separation of those. responsibilities and do so in a way. where we're keeping New Yorkers safe. And that is still a part of my agenda. And what is also critical to me is that. we understand safety both in terms of. response and also in terms of. prevention. And so a lot of the work. that we're also looking to do is address.

where are the areas where we see the. highest levels of crime and what can it. also look like to invest city resources. and support into those same. neighborhoods as well. >> And what about the the arrests of for. small infractions, etc., etc. Um, that. seems to be flying in the face of the. things that you had promised. >> I think that some of the arrest figures. are actually not all that dissimilar. from what we've seen in the prior year. Um, however, what we are also making.

clear is we have a medium and long-term. vision where we are going to allow. police officers to focus on serious. crime, exactly what they signed up to be. a part of when they wanted to join this. department. And I've said that in when. it comes especially to our response to. instances of mental health across the. city that that is work that still needs. to be done to decouple that response. that we have right now. >> How committed are you to Commissioner. Tish in the sense of being part of your.

administration? Um because you do have. you are very different philosophically. >> Yes. And and I think part of what it. means to be a New Yorker is to work with. those with whom you may have a. disagreement on one or two issues, but. you ask yourself, what is the purpose of. this relationship? It is to keep New. Yorkers safe. And that is something that. we're delivering on. And anyone who. works for me at this point, there's. someone that I want to continue to work. with tomorrow, the day after that, because it's critical that we are. measured by the work that we do, not by.

whether or not there's a disagreement. beyond that work. The reason that all. this becomes important is precisely how. we started this conversation because you. wanted to make New York the model. nationally and so how you think about. policing, how you think about the. partnerships with the economic class. >> um have much more resonance because of. your own interest in having that sort of. um resonate beyond the confines of New. York [clears throat] City. I think my.

interest is more in delivering for New. Yorkers and in doing so there is an. example of what that can look like. And. I will also say that when I was running. for this office, I would hear time and. again of what a catastrophe it would be. if I were to win when it came to capital. flight, when it came to crime. And what. we've seen is so much of what is. fear-mongered around has very little. relationship to reality. And that's also. an important reflection on what. dominates a lot of our political.

discourse. It's as if it is just the. worst possible fantasy someone could put. forward that you have to answer for. And. now today, what we have to answer for is. what we're actually delivering for New. Yorkers. >> Part of this discussion, of course, is. the organization that you are part of, which is the DSA, and it's having a. moment, right? I mean they are um being. discussed um in both good ways and bad. [laughter]. to put it mildly. Um and [snorts] at the.

heart of it is this idea that they are. fighting for the working class and it. made me wonder how do you define the. working class because there's also been. a lot of debate around. what is the working class now and who is. welcome at the table of the working. class. I I think if you have to work to pay. your bills, I think that that is one definition of. being a part of the working class. >> So, is that like anyone with a Oh my. goodness. And it's okay. [cough].

>> It's just a bad cough. >> Have you had it checked out? >> I have. >> Okay. >> That's why I believe in Medicare for. all. [clears throat]. Everyone can check it out. [snorts]. >> So, that's everyone with a W2. Is that. Is that kind of 1099's too. I think it's. it's I'm less interested. >> So, someone making $250,000 a year is. working class. >> I mean, I I haven't sat at home and. asked myself where it starts and stops.

What I would say is for those who are. working to try and afford the basic. dignities of life and aren't able to do. so, I think that that is also a working. class. And and often times we're asked. of how we divide this country. I think. there's only one majority in this. country. It's the working class. >> That just doesn't ring true to me. >> What do you think? >> It's less what I think and and more that. it just seems a very um. easy answer to what is a complicated.

question because politically if you're. saying everyone is the working class or. anyone that gets a salary is the working. class, um yes, that opens up your tent. But practically speaking, um, we are. divided by income and especially if you. want to tax people. Um, where you draw. those lines matters. I'. >> I've drawn it at about a million dollars. a year. >> Okay. So, anyone under a million dollars. a year in income is working class.

>> That's not what I'm saying. I'm just. saying in terms of the practicality when. it comes to fiscal policy, >> right? I. >> I think a lot of our politics has been a. debate over who you leave out. And I'm. more interested in debates how you bring. [clears throat] more in. And I think. that that is. it's it's part of what I'm looking to be. a part of is a vision where people. understand no matter what you call it. that there's room for them too. But yes, I do want to raise taxes on people who. make more than a million a year. >> It just feels like someone who is a.

janitor is going to [clears throat] feel. some kind of way about that description. if you're lumping them in with someone. who is a lawyer. um that feels like um a. distinction that might matter. Do you. think everyone's in the same club? >> You know, when I was running, a lot of. the questions I would face is what does. it mean to be a democratic socialist? And I only bring that up because I think. sometimes there's a fixation on a.

definition of something. And what I. found is that when I would knock on New. Yorkers doors, they would just ask, "Am. I part of your vision? It's not that everyone is making the. same amount of money or facing the same. amount of struggle, but that they just. want to know that is there any way for. them to actually be able to work this. hard and afford a good life in this. city. >> I've noticed that when. I'm trying to get specifics, you deflect.

to talking about what New Yorkers do and. don't want. And I have found that. politicians in my own experience when I. ask questions of them that tries well. when you you are the mayor of New York. City when I try to get them to define. something and they don't want to do it. >> um they use a very broad brush and so. what I am [snorts] really because I do. think it's at the heart of a very. [clears throat] important debate in this. country. >> Look I I think to me. I've defined it to you as as someone who. works to afford their life. Mhm.

[clears throat]. >> I also think no matter how you define. it, we have an understanding that those who. are struggling to afford their rent, struggling to afford their groceries, struggling to afford their child care. are the people who should be at the. heart of our vision for what comes next. >> So, the other issue that has been. brought up a lot about the DSA is of. course the vetting that's been taking. place. Um, and we've just seen Graeme. Platner's campaign in Maine implode over. sexual assault allegations.

And your top adviser, Morris Katz, was. instrumental in in running Platner's. campaign? It's been a pretty huge mess. >> Has your faith in Katz diminished? Do. you blame him in part for what happened? >> No. >> Why not? I I think that. first I'll just say when I heard of the. incredibly serious accusations that came. forward and I was asked about what. should happen next for that campaign, I.

said that it should come to an end. And. I'm thankful that that is what we have. seen over these last weeks. And I think. when it comes to Morris, he's someone. who. puts together. a. way to help candidates who are fighting. for that same vision of dignity for. working people. And he, I, and so many. others agree that there is no room, there's no tolerance for sexual violence. or sexual assault within that. a lot of.

signs along the way that. um Graeme Platner had a problematic. past. And so. someone who was so instrumental in his. campaign and in his rise, um shouldn't he be judged for that? I think he should be judged by his. decision at the end of it, which is to. walk away from that campaign as soon as. it was one that could be wrapped up. two big picture questions about.

you and your organization and whatever. coalition you're trying to build because. you've clearly said you want to have. people who you agree with or that. support your vision um in places of. power that you can work with. >> There are moderates in the Democratic. party who've called to expel the DSA um. from the Democratic coalition. And I. want to flip that around. >> Is there room in the party you want to. create from moderate Democrats?

>> Yes. >> I full stop. I'm not interested in. expelling people from parties. I think. that's what you do when you can't win. the debate within the party. even if. they work with Apac. Look, >> if they are Democrats and they run as. Democrats and they win as Democrats and. they should be a part of the Democratic. party. and I've, you know, I have politics is. also the art of making the principled. possible. That's what it should be. And. there are people with whom I have. vehement disagreements with on any.

number of topics. But if we can find a. place of agreement, that's what I'm. going to focus that relationship on. If. you're just looking for people who you. agree with and everything, then you. might as well just stay home and look at. a mirror. >> Yeah. I have a big question inspired um also. um by my colleagues interview of MC. Jagger. >> Wow. I didn't see the segue coming. >> Yeah, there you go. It took a turn. Um. in that interview, Jagger said, "You. have to have a big ego to be a rock. star.".

And it made me wonder after having. interviewed many politicians. what personality traits you actually. think you need to have to be a. successful politician because you are. considered now to be one of the most. successful politicians. >> Thank you. >> And especially in an era. where politics is pretty brutal. >> What are the character traits you have. to have? >> Yeah. What are the what are the. character traits that you think you need. to have? I think there is some level of. absurdity that you have to have as a.

part of yourself to believe that it. should be you. Um, what I think is. critically important, especially now, is. an honesty. An honesty about what you. believe, [snorts] what you're fighting. for, and that you can hold that honesty, especially with people with whom you. disagree with. >> You mean principle? >> Yes. It's it's both principled, but it's. um even if you have an unprincipled. position that you can be honest about it.

because I think that what New Yorkers. and what Americans are looking for is. that they can trust whether or not they. like you or agree with you. They can. trust what it is that you stand for. And. I found that there were a lot of people. when I was running for mayor who would. name a few things that they disagreed. with me on, but they also appreciated. they could rattle off exactly what my. campaign was about. I also think you. have to be able to explain what it is.

that what it is that you're doing and. why you're doing it. >> Oftenimes it seems like. the only answer is power and that's not. a good answer. That can't be a good. answer. It has to be who are you. fighting for and why and how? And and I. think those are questions that too often. trip people up. >> You know, um if I think about you and. President Trump, um.

there's I'm going somewhere here. >> MC Jagger. >> MC Jagger. President Trump. >> No, but if I these are people who have. um power, charisma, have been polit um. successful. President Trump, you know, he has a particular persona that is. about sort of um vengeance and anger and. fighting for his followers, but it has a. certain. um tenor. >> You're known for smiling a lot, which I.

can attest to in this interview. >> And I wonder just about the political. philosophy behind that. Apart from just. the personality trait, perhaps you're. just a naturally optimistic soul. But um. there does seem to be both successful. models um but different. I I wish I could say that I adopted this. as part of a political project. But I. have to credit more my my parents and my.

grandparents because it was something. that they encouraged as I was a kid was. that smiling was. was the way to express yourself. And. I think in both of these instances. though what you're describing is that. you are showing something to the world. about who you are, what you're for, how. it makes you feel. And I think often. times it feels like politicians are. blank canvases and everyone else is. supposed to paint them in. And I think.

it's time to show people this is who I. am. Maybe you don't like it, maybe you. do like it, but this is me. And at least. we can work off of a shared. understanding of of who that is. >> Speaking of you, um. uh I want to understand a little bit of. the personal side of what it means to be. mayor. Um, your wife obviously Rama Duaji is only. 29. You're only 34. You met on Hinge. >> We did. >> You got married just last year. We did. >> This seems like a lot. [laughter].

>> It is. >> Um, now you're both living in Gracie. Mansion. I mean, what has the first year. of navigating. being newly weds, being recently. married, and also this waving hands in. the air? >> It's It's a lot. And I wouldn't want to. do it with anyone else. It's. to be married to the love of my life. while leading the city that I love. I. can't really ask for more. And.

in her, I've found someone who. is. is an oasis. And it's I think it's it's. I'm I'm just forever thankful for it. >> But normally in a in a first year. marriage, you're fighting over who puts. the toothbrush in and you're not. deciding how you're going to be mayor. and first lady. >> I think there's some particular.

conversations that we have, but in many. ways, the beauty of our life is that it. still feels as if it is our life. >> Do you think the scrutiny she's getting. is fair? >> No, I think it's. I think this goes back to an earlier. part of our conversation, which is. what we sign up for and also what I. think in many ways is also an antiquated.

understanding of what a politician's. wife is supposed to be. She is her own. person. She's an incredible artist. And. yet so much of how she engages with the. world today is framed through her being. my wife. And some of the most joyous moments I. have are when people come up to me and. tell me that they love Rama's art. because that's what she is. She's an. artist. Yes, she's my wife, but. you know that's what she does. I'm. someone she loves.

>> Last question. You're presiding over a. real vibe shift in New York City. Um, as. one New Yorker said to me, it's a little. more fun to live here now. The Knicks. won Taylor Swift's wedding, the World. Cup. By the way, were you invited to. Taylor Swift's wedding? >> No. >> You weren't even invited. >> And I think it's okay. >> No, no, it's okay. I know you didn't go, but I wasn't sure if you'd been invited. [sighs]. >> I mean, you're New York's main hype man. now. How do you keep it going after the.

parties end? >> I don't think it has to. I think that. living in the city can be something that. is fun no matter what's happening around. us. And it's also part of a vision of. when you fight for working people, it. just it can't just be so that they. afford their home and their groceries. and their child care. It also has to go. back to the old labor adage of 8 hours. for rest, 8 hours for work, 8 hours to. do what you will. We have to also make.

this a place where people can enjoy. themselves. And that too has to be. something that's affordable. As much as. it's important that we are giving 2,000. 2-year-olds free child care this fall, it's also important that we have a night. coming up where parents can have child. care so that they can go out and. celebrate. And that's why it was it was. a real part of my focus in our. conversations with FIFA and the host. committee that we would secure a. thousand tickets for $50, that we would. make fanfests, which were previously.

going to charge money, we would make. them free, that we would have 24/7. soccer fields, that we would extend the. lighting hours at basketball courts. We. have to also make this a place where. people want to live here because of what. they feel like when they do live here. And it's an honor to be someone who gets. to share what makes this city so special. with the rest of the world. And we say. welcome home. >> All right, Mayor Zora Mani, thank you so. much for your time. Thank you for having. me. I apologize for the cough. >> Not at all. >> Thank you. >> Thank you.

>> I'm Lulu Garcia Navaro. >> and I'm David Marques. >> and we're the hosts of The Interview, an. audio and video podcast [music] from the. New York Times. Every week we interview. fascinating and influential people from. all walks of life. >> Subscribe to our YouTube channel so. you'll never miss an episode. >> [music].