‘You Can’t Fight It’: Matthew Rhys on Falling in Love With Keri Russell | The Interview

Especially with the awards, you think. it'll fulfill some some gaping hole. that's been in you your entire life and. it does nothing. >> I'm Lulu Garcia-Navarro and today I'm. interviewing actor Matthew Rhys. Rhys is. on a tear. He starred in this year's. surprise breakout hit Widows Bay as a. small town mayor trying desperately to. bring tourism to his sleepy island. despite the locals warning that the. [music] place is haunted. >> Maybe it's a story to tell pass a long.

day at sea. I don't know, but I find it. charming myself. Was there cannibalism? No. >> Rhys also starred in The Beast in Me as. Noel Jarvis, a New York real estate. developer rumored to have murdered his. wife. >> Why is that funny? >> [laughter and gasps]. >> Uh I'm interesting. And I got stories, believe me. People. think they know, they don't. >> Both of those parts won him Emmy. nominations this year, but as I found. out when we spoke, it doesn't mean he's. feeling secure in his career. >> I've never felt that.

kind of confidence, that. self-assuredness that I always wished I. had. >> We got into that and talked about some. of his other memorable roles. >> Hi. >> Hi, I'm Hanna. >> Hanna Hanna. >> And about his life with his partner Keri. [music] Russell, who he fell in love. with on the set of The Americans. >> You're my wife. Is that right? >> Here's my conversation with Matthew. Rhys. But first, a quick message. If. you're not a subscriber, we have some. news for you. You can explore the times.

for free without paywalls during your. first month in The New York Times app. Just download the app and we hope you. enjoy it. Okay, on to the interview. Matthew Rhys, thank you so much for. being here. >> Thank you for the invite. >> Um so. the best description of you that I've. seen is actually your own. >> Oh god, yes. [laughter] Here we go. Yeah, immediately panicked. >> All right, you said once that you are. {quote} eternally seeking to channel the. spirit of David Niven.

And that of course is referring to the. great leading man who has Welsh roots, I. discovered. His autobiography The Moon. is a Balloon is one of my absolute. favorite books um in the world. >> Agreed. >> Can you tell me what you meant by that? >> Yes, I feel m- my life or or. how I am in the world, I'm always. really like a nervous Nellie and I'm. always like, "Oh my god, I said the. wrong thing. I did the wrong thing." And. then I look at Niven and he's always so. quietly self-assured and calm and.

seemingly said the right thing even when. a naked person ran behind him at the. Oscars. And I just wish I could be that. person and say the right thing or and be. gracious and effortless and always. a- think of others and every every time. you read of an actor who worked with. David Niven, they always say. he was just so gracious to everyone and. thought of others all the time. and said the right thing and always. calm. And I was like, "God, I wish I could be that person.". >> Yeah. It's interesting the way that you.

view him because he is witty. and charming and always said the right. thing but also um. maybe a bit frivolous, maybe a bit um. >> Frivolous in in what sense or with what? >> Well, I mean. you know, he was the perfect party guest. >> Yes. >> and in terms of his acting, he was a. good actor, I wouldn't say a great. actor. >> And when I think of your work, I think. more of sort of the great Welsh actors, you know, Richard Burton and Anthony. Hopkins and the OG Ray Milland um.

you know, who were sort of brooding dark. characters. >> Mhm. >> And. so I guess what you're saying is David. Niven in life and perhaps others in. work? >> Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And I would. say that. I would say Richard Burton i- is on par. with Niven in that sense as to who I. would aspire to be Cuz Burton, seemingly, he was the first. to kind of be very. very unwelsh to me, which was.

arresting and and inspiring. >> What is unwelsh? >> I think I think we're a we're a small. country. who have who have suffered for being. England's neighbor, the small kind of. cousin who's always ignored and put into. the corner. Um and kind of told what to do by. England. And though And they are for I. think there's a great kind of. subservience and and and and insecurity. to a degree nationally. And [snorts] he was one of the first to. kind of really, with this great.

confidence and hubris, going, "I'm not. going to be that. I'll take Hollywood by. storm. I will challenge Onassis for the. diamond. I will I will" He was very. unwelsh in his. >> bravado. >> Yes. Yeah. And I And to me it was like, "Wow, we're allowed We're allowed to be. that.". >> I want to go just back to the David. Niven thing. >> Yeah. >> Because you described being a nervous. Nellie. Can you just elaborate on that a. little bit? Like what what do you mean? >> Well, I think Well, I think that just. stems from from the early days of kind.

of. kind of growing up in a in a school that. was. heavily into sports and being. the only one who wanted to do acting. And then you go to drama college in. I went to drama college in London and. then being the kind of. the young Welsh person I like I've. always And now I'm just, you know, another fish out of water in in America. I always I've always felt a slightly. not fitting in. I know And it's the. boring actor's cliché,

I've never fitted in. But And I don't. say it's a. cross I've had to bear. I'm just saying. there's a slight feeling of it. Um. And I've never just, you know, all the. all the stuff that. me and my mob always moan about. I've. never felt that. kind of. kind of confidence, that. self-assuredness that I always wished I. had, which is maybe why we always. pretend to be other people. >> You fake it pretty well. >> [laughter]. >> In so many ways, not just the acting.

Yeah. >> [gasps]. >> Um I'm interested in this period that. you had where you had early success. You. were in a stage play of The Graduate on. London's West End, and then you had this. period of not being able to find work. >> Mhm. >> In your early parts of your career, did. you ever turn anything down even though. you needed the job because you wanted to. have a certain kind of career? Were you. being choosy or were you just not. finding the kinds of roles that you.

wanted? >> Oh no, no, it's never never choosy, especially almost throughout my entire. 20s. It was never It was never a choice. I had. I would It was just There's only. one There's one job I turned down that I. to this day bitterly regret, which was. to play Hamlet. >> Oh. >> And I was 24, and I. >> down Hamlet? >> I know, because I the it's field It felt. so field felt like. a mountain I was too young to climb. And. I was like, I don't have the emotional. maturity to play Hamlet at 24.

And now. sadly [clears throat] the Dane has. passed. Um but I yeah, I don't feel, you. know, I'll ever get that chance again. >> You knew that you didn't have the. emotional maturity? >> saying I remember saying it to my agent. at the time. I was like, I can't play. Hamlet now. I don't. I don't have that in me. It's That's. Maybe in. 5 6 years, but not now. There's no way I. could play it now. And then Ben Whishaw did it at 21. >> What do you feel like you have to have. inside of you in order to play a role?

Like what are you I mean, when you were younger, did you feel like. there had to be. emotional material there for you to sort. of be able to channel the The person? >> Exactly. I I you know, Ham obviously. Hamlet's going through so much at the. time. >> Mhm. >> Uh I just felt I've I haven't worn. enough shirts. [snorts] I haven't lived. a life yet in order to kind of. >> And you can't pretend? Isn't that. acting? >> [laughter]. >> I don't mean to be to tell you your. business. >> Oh, believe me how right you are. Yes. Uh and I look back and go, "Why didn't I.

just pretend?" I think I think uh you. know, we do we do kind of put Hamlet on. a plinth and we kind of see it as this. Everest that. kind of be summited, should be summited. cuz it's there, it should be summited. Um and it was for me. I was like, this. you know, it's it was a um. It's just one of those roles. >> it was low self-esteem? >> Without question. >> Mhm. >> I think any number of other actors would. go, "Of course I'm going to do it.". >> Mhm. >> And I'll do it well. And and I was like, I can't do that. Uh that's not in me.

I'm not I can't I can't do it. >> Mhm. >> I bitterly regret that. >> You mentioned something. You studied at. RADA, which is the Royal Academy of. Dramatic Art in London. And that's sort. of the highest echelon acting school. What would you say the sort of main. differences between American acting and. and. British acting or the acting that you I. mean, I have thoughts about this, but. the acting that you kind of. were brought up in because just hearing. you say that that you kind of needed. some emotional material to do it.

I mean, that. that speaks to you know, a philosophy of. acting that I'm wondering. what it is exactly. >> think the that philosophy [snorts] is? Is it more American? >> I would say it's more it's more. American. >> I agree. I agree. And and we were taught. by a a New York acting teacher um. at while at RADA um called Doreen. Cannon. She was from the kind of royalty. of New York acting schools. >> method acting? >> Stella Adler Yeah, she'd come through. that. So she Yes, that was her her ethos.

and that was the way we were taught. It. was this great subversive moment in in. the RADA history where black Americans. were brought in to teach acting. You. know, it's [clears throat] kind of let's. reinvent the wheel here. >> Yeah, and how did that um. how did that inform how you learned how. to act? >> It I loved it because also as much as I. was watching Richard Burton, the huge. heroes for me were Brando and De Niro. and Pacino. So all of a sudden I felt. like I was getting an insight into their. world, the way they did it. And I you. know, grew up watching their movies. So. all of a sudden I was like, "Oh my god,

we're getting the secrets.". >> Yeah. >> Um so it was very exciting to me. It was. It was getting away from this idea that. it was pretense. It suddenly became very. real. And and and in a way I suppose a. little more. This is a self-justification of dressing. up for a living, but kind of more worthy. or noble that if if you do it for real, it's not facade, which is a little more. humiliating. >> [laughter]. >> Um well, there's a lot of debate now. because um female actors have talked. [clears throat] about how this is a it's.

a male conceit to be a method actor that. it's because, you know, men are much. more comfortable, you know, navel-gazing. and women have to use their brains in. other ways. I mean, what what do you. think about that sort of. um. debate? >> I agree. I I agree that it's it's the. the term has become this kind of a. pariah now for for bad behavior. And and. what I what I what I loved about the. training we had at college is that they. stripped the myth from it. They're like,

"Look, it's like a switch. It's like a. toolkit. So there's no self-indulgences. There's no kind of being rude to people. There's no doing push-ups before a take. You know, you know, like you know, if. you're playing Macbeth, you're not going. to become the King of Scotland." So it's. like. it's giving you a tools a toolkit that. you can call upon whenever you need it. and when you should need it. But it also. makes it a lot more clinical, a lot. easier. There's no You don't stay in. character. There's no reason to stay in. character between you know,

characters between action and cut. That's it. >> You don't do it? >> No. >> No. >> No. We were taught a method, but I'm not. I'm not I suppose what in the modern. term I would say is a a method act I've. never once stayed in character. >> You don't go home and speak in an. American accent or. >> I do sometimes to annoy the kids. They're like, "Ah, stuff it.". >> [laughter]. >> Yeah, or if I order food on the phone, I. do an American accent cuz sometimes. you're like. it's just quicker. The kids like, "Why. are you doing that?". >> Yeah. All right. Um I want to talk about.

uh your Emmy nominated roles. First of. all, congratulations. >> Thank you very much. >> Um. 19 Emmy nominations for Widows Bay. >> Unbelievable. >> It's. >> Unbelievable. >> Part of what is obviously so unique. about the show is this blend of horror. and comedy. Um. So, first on the comedy, I saw the. casting director recently said about you. that no one knew how good you were going. to be in a comedy role, which made me. wonder [laughter] why you were cast, by. the way. Um but um you know, they said.

you'd never really done a role like that. before. >> No. >> I mean, did you doubt yourself? Why did. you want to try to do comedy? Because. you're not known as a comedic character. >> And I and I didn't I I always wanted to. kind of give comedy a a go. And then and. then the script came in and I was like, "Oh my god, this is amazing and original. and weird and quirky." And I was like. "Is this comedy or is this kind of part. you're going to play for real?" And then. I met with Kitty Dippold and Hiro Murai. And Hiro said, "Look, the we're not.

playing this as a comedy. It has to be. played as a drama, otherwise it doesn't. work. It's it'll become self-conscious. [snorts] and farcical. So, you have to. play it for real." And I was like, "Oh, great.". >> [laughter]. >> And then you had to do that? >> Yeah, the pressure was taken away and I. didn't have to think about it being a. comedy. >> Is that why you've steered away from. away from comedy up until now? >> No, I just think. >> Because I've seen you in roles where. you're you're yourself, right? And and. you're funny. >> Well, thank you very much. >> Yeah. >> I also think I also think I'm I have. what they call the Celtic lid. You know, I slightly.

hooded eyes like Robert Mitchum. So, you. had you don't have a face for comedy. People think you're kind of downtrodden. and serious all the time. Like if I have. a brighter eye, I might be I might be. better for comedy. Um but it's not. something I've overtly or consciously. avoided. Um. I just think you. as in so many times with this. profession, you can slightly get put. into your little category and you stay. there. >> Right. Um when you. had to go and play um. the character, uh did you.

think, all right, I have to play this. for real? And by the way, other actors. who are who do do comedy say that you. have to play it straight. Like in any. comedy, you have to be completely. committed to the bit because if not, it. >> Yes, it self-conscious. Yeah, yeah. [snorts]. >> Um. but this is obviously like a fantastical. world. >> Yes. Yes. >> And so how do you commit to the bit when. you're having to be chased by, you know, killer clowns and horny sea hags? >> The [laughter]. Almost the same What what What was great. was.

um. >> [gasps]. >> I I was going to say, oh god, I Well, okay, cuz I hate talking about the pros. my process, right? Cuz okay. >> So, so part of the method I was taught. is when you approach a project, your. character should have a super objective. What is the one thing throughout the. whole project he desperately wants? >> Mhm. >> So, I thought if I give myself a very. strong super objective for this. for each scene then there's a scenic. objective that feeds the super. objective. >> Mhm. >> So, I go, okay, if I if my super.

objective is I want my son to flourish, to bloom, to succeed on this island, every action leading into that super. objective has to be me going, I have to. make this island succeed. So, it gives. you this kind of. focused zeal when the madness is around. you. And that that's what helped me kind. of. when there's kind of all borderline. farcical madness around you, if you have. this one driving force in your mind, it. tends to for me personally, it helps me. kind of keep me slightly on this on this.

path, on this keel that I can I can. stick to. And then it makes the playing. of it more real for me, if that makes. sense. >> It it does. It you know, it's your. motivation, right? It's everything. >> [laughter]. >> I said the M word. Yes, so that's what I. So that's what I Okay, thank you. That's. what I try and do. >> So on the horror front, >> Yes. >> I want to start with just like a big. premise, which is. you know, film and our cultural. touchstones say something about us and. the moment that we're living in. And I.

think, you know, when superhero movies. were really having their moment, we. wanted things to be black and white. We. wanted. >> [gasps]. >> to be saved. We wanted someone to come. and sort of make everything okay. And I. think what this moment might be telling. us is that. things aren't what they seem. That. there's. um. things is happening behind the scenes. that are beyond our control and aren't. particularly nice either. >> [gasps]. >> I mean, why do you think horror's having. such a moment? Have you thought about. it?

>> To a degree, but I I haven't come up. with anything as erudite as that. Um but. but. >> Or do we just like to be scared? I mean, maybe I'm just giving too much of a. thing. >> No, no, because I think it's interesting. as to why why there's this why there's. this kind of wealth of horror that's. doing well. So it seemingly it's kind of. more slightly more societal than. anything else. And And. >> [snorts]. >> And And I would agree because I would I. would have thought in in these times of. kind of such turbulence, you would. almost want the superheroes more because.

you just need to believe in that kind of. universal sense of justice that. something or someone ultimately. will do the right thing or or or or. overcome the bad thing. But it is it's. this you know, we're in this strange. time of kind of constantly being oh my. god, this is terrible. Um. >> Shocks to the system. >> Yes, the the it's the things we're. seeing are horrific, but yet seemingly. nothing changes or stops, so.

it makes perfect sense that we'd. find it in our fictional. entertainment. >> Do you think about the cultural moment. when you're playing a role like this, like what it's feeding into, um what how. how it might be received in in the. world? >> Well, the the the big conversations. about Widow's Bay was like how are they. going to take this? Is like there was a. we were always going by are we going to. get this what is this tone of. when I my agent said this is horror. comedy, I was like whoa, what? No. And. then I read it and I was like oh, that's.

it's pretty great. I didn't think it was pretty great. I. thought it was fantastic. And I was like. I know I want to do it, but how is that. going to be received? Like that could be. we could die on our asses with this one. >> Do you know anything about series two, what's going to happen? Do you know, I mean, what is making the. bell toll? Do you know anything about. the real mythology that you can tell. the people who are going to watch this. and want to know? >> I can tell you wholeheartedly I know. nothing. And I'll be I'll say this much,

I'm not even sure if Katie Dipold knows. cuz they've only just got into the room. for season two. And I and I was like I. was texting her going what happened? She. was I don't know. Um so, they're going to sit down for a. long time trying to figure it out. >> is one of my really big pet peeves as a. viewer, um which is. >> [sighs and gasps]. >> we have to wait to know if a series is a. hit before it gets picked up again. And. then there's this long lag time and by. that point, you know, you're kind of. forgotten everything about the momentum.

and the thing that you liked. And you're. seeing now all this. reporting about viewer drop-off, you. know, beef running point Netflix series. because that happens. I mean, isn't. there a better way? >> There has to be because this new model. is crazy. That's what everyone says. It's like now we have to wait over a. year for the next season. I'm of the. same opinion. You watch one season then. you're like, "What? Wait, what? How. long?". >> Yeah, are you worried about losing. momentum? >> Yeah, yes. I just hope those editors who. do previously on Widows Bay, you know,

kind of a great just before we. we break season 2 and reintroducing it, but that's that's not the best answer. >> All right. Um. The Beast in Me was your other big hit. this year. You're nominated for an Emmy. for that, too. You play a super rich. mogul who's suspected of killing his. wife. >> Yeah. >> Have you thought about how much you're. playing a character that's hiding. something? Because I was obviously in advance of. this interview just going through a lot. of your work. In The Americans obviously. you were Soviet spy pretending to be an.

American and many other things along the. way. Beast in Me you're a murderer. pretending to not be a murderer. Widows. Bay you clearly know more than you let. on. about what's happening on the island. I. mean, why are you drawn to those. particular roles? And why do you keep. getting them? >> I Yeah, that's even more disturbing. Um. I always think when when. when the character has something else. going on it just gives you so much more. to play than something slightly. shallower or more artificial. It just.

kind of layers it in a way that um other. parts can't. You've you've got so much. going on it. sometimes in a way. >> [snorts]. >> takes you out. of the acting if that makes sense. You're kind of. you're. you're playing so many things you start, you know, forgetting about the kind of. artificiality of it all. >> I saw a clip where you were discussing. The Beast in Me and you said menace and. rage is where I like to live. >> [laughter].

>> And we had a big debate as to whether. you were kidding or not. Were you? >> I'm. >> But. >> I mean, but if you look at your. career, I mean, that's not untrue. >> No. No. Yeah, I'm sure I'm sure the kids would. say that's where I do live. >> [laughter]. >> No, no. I was I I was I was making a a. joke. >> Because your upbringing seems to have. been so. happy. Was it? It was. You mean, you've. talked about it was stable and fun. You. were out, you know, on the farm and you.

were out on the sea and it just seemed. like a lovely. >> Yeah. >> kind of time. >> Yes. >> You don't seem to have some sort of dark. origin story. >> No. >> Um and. and so I'm wondering where the. attraction to darkness comes from. >> Right. So, like those it's in the. shadows the interest lies. I I firmly. believe of that. It's like it's like, "Oh my god, what what's that about? What. what must be that like?". >> [snorts]. >> And the kind of rage, you know, the rage. stuff you can kind of go. I hate to say it. Sometimes I find the rage stuff easy to.

fake cuz it's just sort of it's sort of. volume and passion. That's about it. Um. [snorts]. and I think for men it's it's this weird. little tap you can find quite easily. You know, you you can fake that quite. easily if you're just kind of passionate. and loud enough. >> Speaking of um those dark and layered. roles, um. I want to ask you about a role you. played in the HBO show Girls in 2017. >> Yeah. >> Uh I just rewatched it and it's a.

episode titled American and you. played Chuck Palmer, a famous author. who'd been Me Too'd for taking advantage. of younger women. >> Mhm. >> And Hannah, played by Lena Dunham, goes. to his apartment, just giving the. synopsis, >> um. after writing about the allegations. And. what follows is this incredibly complex. performance. Um and again, you're. playing this sort of charismatic, powerful, deeply manipulative person. Um. and you have this intellectual argument. with her about the agency of women and.

what was really going on for you and how. you have been. miss um misunderstood. Um and then at the end you expose. yourself to Hannah. >> Yeah. >> And the. >> Physically. >> Physically, yes. >> Yeah. >> Physically. >> Yeah. >> Um. the look you give in that scene. >> At the end of the episode. >> is really quite something. It was. amazing watching it again. Can you tell me what you remember. working on that episode and what you. understood about the character then?

>> Y- yes and and. you know, Lena was incredible in in in. that she kind of. I hope I'm not speaking out of turn on. her behalf. But she kind of explained um. what had happened to her. Um. So it was drawn from uh truth. Uh so she gave me this the background to. to this. where this kind of uh piece of fictional.

writing came from. Um. in a very in a very detailed way which. helped enormously. And then. which I've never done before, we. rehearsed it like almost like a play. We. went to the location and rehearsed and. rehearsed and rehearsed. Um. which is. utterly luxurious in television where. you just there is no time. So I just. remember thinking, "Wow, we have all this time to get this right. because it definitely needs to be got. right.". >> Especially at that moment, right? It was.

the. subject of a huge discussion. >> Did. in in that discussion with her, were you. trying to. honor her memory or were you trying to. be um. you know, interpret the character in. your own way? >> No, more exactly that. Trying to honor. exactly what she'd written. Um and kind. of. place it in a in a in a very real way, but also she was interested in the real. discussion of it. And the the that.

that he couldn't just be um. kind of villainized. off the bat. There had to be. there had to be some kind of true. discussion or discourse within this. event that kind of that lead that leads. to it. She wanted the kind of push and. pull of both sides for it to land in a. very real place that ultimately that. then would hopefully pay off the ending. a. >> lot more. >> Yeah, I mean it did, obviously. Um but. what was that look? What because.

>> [laughter]. >> because what strikes me seeing it now is. that. you know, it was this moment in time. where we were just starting to have the. conversation about consent and power and. abuse. >> And. Lena and the show's creators talked. about it, you know, in the after episode. discussion and talked about how they. wanted the world to be nuanced. >> Mhm. >> But watching it now for me is just a. straight-up bad guy. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And um. >> But that to me that was what the look is.

at the end. He goes, "It doesn't matter. what we've discussed. Ultimately, this is all I want to do.". That that all all that kind of. quote-unquote. discussion and you know, kind of. back and forth is meaningless. because once that happens, cuz. ultimately it's that's all he wants. >> Yeah. Um you also got to choose a prosthetic. penis in that. >> Yeah. >> role. >> I actually didn't. I didn't I was given.

the choice and I thought, "I can't. choose my own." It had so because I. don't know. >> Mhm. >> I was like, "Somebody else choose it.". Cuz then I then I can't be judged about. the my choice. >> Is that the strangest problem that. you've had? >> Without question. With I've never. encountered a tray. of prosthetic penises before and the. prop master going, "Do you want to Would. you want to And I was like, "No, you. choose." So, just something that I like. spoke to the Richard, the director, and. "Why don't you you pick pick what you.

think will help aid the shot at the. end?". >> Okay, we're going to do a weird pivot. because I don't know how to um. get out of prosthetic penises in a. graceful way. >> So, I saw uh a clip of you. uh it saying in Welsh, "It's all. downhill from here." Speaking about your. Emmy nominations. >> And of course my common language Well, I. have the louder one than my mother had. points and um. They better not be with us than even. higher party in this matter at your talk. than I guess.

>> And I was wondering if you know, give me. the context. I mean, the Welsh very. pessimistic. You can't just be. >> You can't just be like, "I'm amazing and. this is wonderful.". >> no. No. I and I I would attribute this. to the to all the Celtic countries. It. It's almost like an Olympic sport to. to take someone down once they think. they're above their station. And you know, I my parents go, "Well, he. you know, he he. he thinks he you know, he What What's my. dad always say? Uh God, if he was chocolate, he'd eat.

himself. You know, or he goes, "He's. >> He says that about you? >> You know, just about anyone who kind of. slightly thinks they might be better. than everyone else. Um I just think I do. I really find it like a this real. Celtic um. characteristic that all the Celts have, like that that anyone who thinks they're. slightly better than the rest. it needs to be lopped at the at the. knees. Um and and I do also think that. especially for the Welsh, we we do have. a wildly strong sense of pessimism.

coursing through our veins. >> Hm. I mean, it seems to be very at odds with. the American idea of always be selling. and and in particular self. I mean, do. you struggle with your own success? >> Yeah. I mean, yes and no because I think I. think what. I I have this ongoing I have this I have. the parrot keep saying it's all going to. fail, right? You know, it's all going to. go downhill. Um so I have that all the time and and. this sounds.

a perverse name drop, but I I. Tom Hanks' motto is like this too shall. pass. And he says that about everything. You've been out of work for a long time, this too shall pass. You win two Oscars, this too shall pass. And I what I what I. remember is after doing The Graduate. with Kathleen Turner thinking I was just. on an ascent. I was like, this is it. And then I was out of work for a long. time. And I realized the entire. the entire journey is the roller. coaster. You're just up and then you're. down and you're up and so at this point,

I know this sounds stupid, but I kind of go this is just it's a. it's a moment. It's a fantastic moment, but it's a moment. >> After The Graduate, you mean you were. going to join the military at a certain. point. >> Yeah. >> They didn't believe me. >> Which is really sad for an actor. [laughter]. You couldn't even convince the. recruiter. >> No. I remember I went in and I met I met. the sergeant and he was like, you should. come back next week and meet meet an. officer. I said, okay. Went back to for. the interview and this officer was so.

suspicious of me going, why do you want. to join the military? And then like 5. days later I got the letter saying, thank you for your interest in the. British Army, but It is sort of amazing. that that officer was like, there's. something not right about this kid. They. like, I don't believe him. >> Back to that Welsh pessimism. >> Yeah. >> I mean, what do you think the biggest culture. clash is between your American living. self and your sort of Welsh self? >> I always admire to me the Americans have. such confidence. But what I find in New.

York. that I do sometimes is I fake this. confidence cuz there's this kind of some. some say it's aggressive, I find it like. more confident. Because there's like this and it's an. honesty, too. That like you see it it's like. it's like subway justice. Do you know. sometimes when you get those people and. it's not necessarily just men. Women go. like, "Hey, you can't you can't sit. there." Like or like, you know, "Give up. the chair." Or like what I. remember going, "Oh my god, people are.

like this. They're not just like. those bit parts in in movies about New. York. The people are like this." And I. found it's liberating. And I was. >> kids have that American confidence? >> To a degree, yeah. But more so far more. so than I did as a kid of their age. >> Hm. All right, you told the Guardian in 2014. that the most important thing to you was. the survival of the Welsh language. >> Probably was then, yeah. >> Yeah. >> it still is. And I would you know, I. grew up in the '80s when the the the. language itself was.

threatened. And and you know, I remember. the protest marches and the kind of. >> [sighs and gasps]. >> you know, trying to get a language bill. and a language act and trying to you. know. one of the oldest languages in Europe, you couldn't. couldn't open a bank account in the. Welsh language. There was it it had no. status. >> I don't think I truly understand sort of. the history of. how. the Welsh language and and Wales in. particular was subsumed under sort of. British culture. >> Yes, English. Yes. Yes. They they like.

if we strip a nation of its language, we'll you know, we can we can dominate. And that's what they did. They tried to. eradicate the language. But I think as a. result of that, what the what it. did was create a fire in the Welsh to. say, "You absolutely will not kill this. language.". Um and they fought it for hundreds of. years. There was my grandmother's. generation was the generation where they. used to have the where the. the piece of wood around their neck. saying they wouldn't speak Welsh, you. know, otherwise. It was called the Welsh. knot. And and and this is the the.

English did well. They would turn communities on each. other. So, a child hearing another child. speaking Welsh was allowed to put the. piece of wood around their neck and then. that child at the end of the day would. be flogged. So, this is how they kind of. did it. So, there was a zeal to my. parents going. this language will not die. It will. never die. We'll make sure it doesn't. >> Mhm. You've talked about. one of the reasons you find doing the.

American accent easy but the British the. English accent hard. >> Yeah. >> is because of that colonial baggage. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's when. I feel the most fake when I have to do a. southern English accent, when I have to. get the received pronunciation RP. >> Yeah. >> That's when I feel like, oh, I just feel. fake. >> Fake and also distasteful. >> Yes. I just sit because we used to grow. we grew up in our house mimicking that. language in a derogatory way going, oh,

yes, darling, do do pass the cucumber. sandwiches, you know? So, so it the the. connotation of it was wildly negative. >> You're voicing Han Solo. >> [laughter]. >> in the first ever Welsh dub of Star. Wars. >> Yeah. >> I mean, amazing. >> Yeah. >> Have you already done it? >> Yes. Yeah. >> Okay. So, please please do a scene for. me. Absolutely [laughter] say something. in Welsh where you're playing Han Solo. >> god. What was What was weird is. obviously they'd had to translate all. these.

um you know, things that we'd grown up. with knowing Star Wars and then I was. saying it in Welsh and it was kind of. like pal of karkey. You kind of go, you know, it kind of. >> What is that? >> It's kind of like um. it's like tractor beam. >> Oh, okay. >> Um there were words I've never used. before and I was tripping on them going, I can't even say it. Um. and at the same time it was this. wildly familiar. thing that I I got to do and it.

I mean, it was so surreal. The whole. thing was surreal. And then also, you. kind of go, "I can't voice Harrison. Ford. It's like. Do you talk to him about that?" No. I'm too scared. But But. But in in the same in the same vein, you. know, I was so glad this is what I would. have wanted growing up as a as a young. Welsh kid is to. is to have these things that would be. commonplace. Like, yeah, we'll translate. Star Wars into Welsh. Um. so, it buoyed me.

enormously to kind of go, "Right. So, there're going to be a. a generation of kids who'll watch Star. Wars in Welsh.". Amazing. I want to talk about um. Keri Russell. She's your partner. Thank. God. You first. worked together um. in The Americans, which is just one of. my all-time favorite shows. What is it like to fall in love with. your co-star? Kind of I remember at the time going, "Oh, no." Because.

I wouldn't advise it. You know, and and. back in my 20s, I'd done it and it. had ended disastrously and usually. doesn't do the job any favors. And I. kind of went, "I'm never doing that. again.". And then kind of in my mid-30s, The. Americans happens and I was like, "Oh, no. This is happening again." Um. Do you question it because it might. because, you know, obviously you're. playing a romantic partner. So, you're. going, "Hang on. You know, let's be very serious about. this." And you know, Keri had two kids.

and it wasn't something I was going to. enter into lightly. Um. And then sometimes you can't fight it, you know. It's. ordained. It's uh. It was. It was and it was going to happen and it. did. I'm curious about this also because. just when you are on this long-running. series and you're working with someone. and you're romantically involved with. someone. You know, usually your.

our personal worlds and our work worlds. are are separate. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> I mean, is there any anything tricky. about having that merge? >> Wildly tricky. Because, you know, by by. the end of The Americans she was. pregnant with our child. [laughter]. Um and I was trying to direct a pregnant. um. but yeah, I'm not I'm not good enough or. mature enough to kind of. because sometimes when we would argue, I'd bring that into the scene and the. director's like, "What is going on? You're meant to be getting on really. well." And I was like, um and vice versa, you know? So, she's.

far more mature than me as um. So, yeah, I found that hard. I really. did. I struggled with it. >> Yeah, would you work together again? >> Without question, 100%. I'm always. saying, "But I want to do something like. Hart to Hart or Moonlighting, something. like that.". >> [gasps and laughter]. >> Um. >> Although, she'd probably want to be. Bruce Willis. >> Are you competitive with her? Cuz my husband's a journalist and I'm. He's not competitive with me, but I'm. very competitive [laughter] with him. >> Brilliant. Brilliant. Um.

No. No. And I No. >> Hm. >> I'm genuinely trying to think that. through properly. Um No, and I think. we're two very different people and one. We have two very different attitudes. towards. acting as well. She has got I think. quite a complicated um relationship with. acting in that she kind of goes, "Oh, well, I you know, I'm not. um. And she always goes, "Oh, Matthew's. trained." So, I'm like, "This What are. you It makes. no difference." Um.

>> It's like someone having gone to Harvard. and someone like, you know, and being. successful and someone being, you know, journeyman and being equally successful. >> just either you can do it or you can or. you can't. Or you you know, you'll. succeed or you won't. There's no By that. point. has no bearing. >> What makes her a great actor in your. view? >> I just believe her always. Like I'm I'm. always there 100% with her. She can't. She in a way she was just can't fake it. So you're. you're 100% invested on the ride then.

And And that to me is the kind of almost. all of it. for acting with me. If I believe it then. I'm off I'm with you. And it doesn't. matter where we go. Um and I always. believe her. >> How do you both um. organize your lives? Um I I feel like. men don't get asked this enough which is. why I'm asking you. In the sense we. always ask women how are they organizing. their lives? And I'm just I'm wondering. actually as both actors she's in the. middle of The Diplomat and that's you.

know a ongoing series uh thank God. And. um. So. how do you organize parenting and acting. and all that stuff and children? >> it's like a circ- it's like a circus. We. both we both have uh Moleskine planners. We don't We don't We don't do the. calendar thing. Yeah. >> So we sit down with little nubs of. pencils. Uh that's how we That's how we. do it. But it's It is one of the hardest.

elements of a you know uh the the circus. life. I mean I keep making the joke I'm. like we're just saving money for the. kids' therapy when they're older because. they're like they're never around. Um. So it's hard. It's hard. It's It's been. It's plate spinning. >> Have you ever turned something down so. that Keri could do it? Or vice versa? >> Um. But the. the one rule we kind of have if if if. [clears throat] there's a. a project comes along where like I can't.

turn this down then we make it work. whatever whatever it is. There are some. There have been projects whereby um. clearly a very quite. um. impressive when managers go listen. this film is shooting is these are the. dates, this is the cast, this is the. director. I go I don't want to read it. Just turn it down. >> Yeah. >> Cuz I can't I would rather not read it. and go, oh my god. >> Yeah. >> But I know like she's in the middle of. The Diplomat, I can't do it. So don't.

send it to me. I've done that a couple. of times, but. >> That's I mean, that's not nothing. >> she's done the same, too. So, you know, it's it's equal in that sense. >> Mhm. She's also nominated for um The. Diplomat. You're this real Emmy power. couple this year. Uh. >> Yeah, yeah. >> [laughter]. >> Emmy power couple. >> Emmy power couple. That's going to be on. your plaque. >> EPC. >> Yeah. >> I mean, do you talk about it and have you gamed. out the different scenarios? Because, you know, you you won for The Americans,

she didn't. She's been nominated eight. times, I believe, and has not won. >> know. I know. >> Um I mean, do you do you talk about like she wins, you lose, you lose, she wins? What are. our faces going to do? Um [laughter] you. know, when they when they pan to us. immediately? >> make jokes. Like I say, if you don't win. this time, I'm going to go. snake. Um she's like, don't you do that. >> I mean, Jay-Z does it for Beyoncé. >> Right. >> I mean, there could be a thing, right? >> Right. I should start thing going. like if she doesn't if she doesn't win. Um no, we don't we don't we don't really.

talk about that. We talk about more the. the logistics of the night and which. party you're going to go to after. >> Mhm. Um would you rather she wins than you? Like if you could. >> 100% 100%. >> Okay. I saw Samantha Morton recently she. hasn't worked at all since doing The. Odyssey. Um. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. Um and it reminded me. of. what we've just talked about, which is, you know, those times in your life where. you've had these fallow periods where, you know, you've had to sort of.

take the Tom Hanks view of like this is. a moment and it too shall pass and you. have to take the long view of your. career. >> Has this moment right now where, you. know, nominated for two Emmys, um really have the hot show of the. summer where everyone's talking about. it. Um. in a. Emmy power couple, >> [laughter]. >> the only PC. >> Um have you finally do you think. cemented your status with this though?

Do you finally feel safe? >> Yes and no. I know it's kind of a long. answer. You you I find myself at moments. going, maybe I can relax. And then and. then you kind of go. oh, that's the death nail if you do. Do. you know what I mean? Um. and you've I've just been through it. I've been through the up and down so. much. I kind of go I'm never. quite comfortable. And and and in a way I think it it gives.

you something. It keeps you a bit a. little bit hungry. >> What are you hungry for now? >> Movies to me is still the kind of. the grail because we grew up watching. big Hollywood movies. And I was like, ooh, movies. Do you know. what I mean? They still have that. allure. The Oscars still have the allure. to me cuz you kind of go. that's another echelon. You always think. especially with the awards, you think. it'll fulfill some gaping hole that's. been in you entire life. And you go if I. just win an award, it'll fulfill.

everything. And it does nothing. The the. kind of drive or the what you're that. whatever hole you're trying to fill. is still very much. at the center of your gut. >> Is that why you continue to audition? I. mean, you. audition for role um and you didn't get. You really wanted to be in the Bob Dylan. biopic. >> Yeah. >> I mean, is that what drives the the need. to go and kind of still do that at this.

stage? >> And I thought I thought And also, you. can't you like if you want something, get after it. Go and do it. Get it, you. know, prove to them you can do it. I I. still. I still have the I still the I was kind. of relieved that I still had that hunger. to come and go, I'll audition. I'm not, you know, I'll go, yeah, of course I. will. >> But you didn't get it. How do you deal. with rejection at this stage in your. career? >> say, I was like, who got it? And they. went, Ed Norton. I was like, oh, okay. >> [laughter]. >> That's um. terrible. It was like I'd had no.

audition for a little bit and I didn't. get it. I felt happy cuz. it reminds you of everything you used to. do. You used to make yourself. vulnerable. You used to give yourself. all this hope and then you'd be knocked. down. It was good. I was I was I got I was got. I was kind of it enlivened me again. It. kind of gave me a I remembered the. hunger of your 20s when you're like, I'm. going to get that part. >> All right, last question. >> Geography. >> Exactly. Yes. Tell me about Finland.

>> Yeah. >> [laughter]. >> No. Um you talked about having the super. objective, right? Um in your work. Um. and it serves your motivation no matter. what you're doing. And I'm wondering. what your super objective is in life. >> Yeah. Well, I mean, we touched on it cuz. you keep thinking if if I just do this, I'll feel satisfied. If I just if I win. an award, I'll feel. uh how superficial I. I'll feel it'll. it'll yes, and I'll fulfill something in. myself. And I think ultimately it's to.

do a part where I can look back and I. go, I'm satisfied with that. That's what keeps you. moving forward is like, okay, when am I going to do one part that I. look at and go, I did it. >> Your Hamlet. >> [laughter]. >> Yes. My Hamlet at 79 years of age. >> [laughter and gasps]. >> Um. and. it's and is there [snorts] a super.

objective in terms of the way you live. your life? >> [gasps]. >> Harking back to your first question. about David Niven, I want to get to a. place where I just feel confident and. just kind of. I'm not faking that. I'm not faking the. kind of. oh, I'm you know, I'm happily confident, but I genuinely feel. calm and confident in myself. When will that come? >> Matthew Rhys, I wish it on all of us. I. don't think that you're alone in that.

particular struggle. I don't think that. you're alone in that particular. struggle. >> [laughter]. >> Let us let us all sail that good ship. until we find it. Until we find [music] it. Thank you so. much. >> Thank you for this invite. >> And I've greatly enjoyed it. >> Likewise. >> I'm Lulu Garcia-Navarro. >> And I'm [music] David Marchese. >> And we're the hosts of The Interview, an. audio and video [music] podcast from The. New York Times. >> Every week we interview fascinating and. influential people from all walks of. life. >> Subscribe to our YouTube channel so.

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