Why Did Bad Things Happen to Lena Dunham? She’s Still Trying to Figure It Out. | The Interview

I'm going to say something that's going. to sound like a cop out and I don't but. I can only phrase it this way. I've annoyed people since I was so. small. >> [music]. >> There are very few celebrity memoirs. I've been more eager to read than Lena. [music] Dunham's "Fame Sick". >> I don't want to freak you out, but I. think that I may be the voice of my. generation. >> Dunham was 25 when "Girls", the HBO. series she created and starred in,

premiered in 2012 and it since become a. true generational touchstone. "Girls". follows four female friends navigating. their 20s [music] in New York City. >> today. >> The show was funny, >> Look at me. You smoke the crack? You smoke just some crack? >> sexually frank, >> You find out I called him? >> No. >> Wait, you are, right? >> Yes. >> and divisive. >> [music]. >> And what? >> Get on. all fours. >> And so was Dunham herself, [music] who. at the time generated huge amounts of.

discourse. She was scolded for being unself-aware, an oversharer, privileged, [music] not. attractive enough, you name it. And. while she did have an unfortunate knack. for putting her foot in her mouth, in. retrospect, the sheer intensity of the. negative attention seems [music]. unfounded. In her memoir, Dunham reveals. her life was just as turbulent [music]. behind the scenes. She details how she. was concurrently dealing with drug. abuse, dysfunctional sexual. relationships, and [music] chronic. illness. It's a lot. And now, at nearly.

40, she's ready to talk about it all. Here's my conversation with Lena [music]. Dunham. >> You know, it's. we were just making small talk here and. talking so nicely out in the hall, and. now I I just have a bunch of incredibly. heavy questions to ask you. >> wait. I can't wait. You said that and I. was like, yeah, that seems right. >> Yeah. Who whose name are you most. anxious about popping up in your inbox. and saying they've read the book? >> Woo. I mean, anytime you get feedback from someone. you've written about that you love or.

have loved who isn't in your life. anymore, that's always uh. stressful name. But honestly, like having my parents. read it was. the most anxiety-producing. part of the process because I knew they. were both going to fact-check, look at. it in a sort of like macro career arc. way because they're artists, will also. looking at it in a protective parents. way, will also looking at it in a.

at their own depiction, and like waiting. through all of that. So, I feel like my. parents, when they popped up in my. inbox, that was a that was a curl-up day. >> And what was their response? >> My father said one of the most amazing. things, which is he said, "It's hard for me to understand why. anyone would want to publish a book such. as this." And the such as this And he. said, "It's beautifully written. I'm very proud of you.

Some people are going to really. understand it, connect to it, and feel. it's for them, and some people are going. to say, 'Why won't she shut the [ __ ] up. already?'". And I thought that was like a pretty. accurate assessment of the options, and I I liked that. >> Uh just on the on the idea that some. people will read it and understand it. >> Yeah. >> Um. you know, there. there's. so much in the book about, you know, uh. addiction, >> Yeah. >> you know, traumatic physical things that have. happened to you, uh chronic illness, you.

know, career ups and downs, personal relationships, like. >> Yeah. >> coming together and falling apart. >> Yeah. >> And. you're sort of amazingly candid about. this stuff. And it's coming from someone who, I. think, has often been misunderstood. Do you. have a a hope that, in publishing the. book. you will be. better understood by the public? >> That's a really good question, and one.

of the reasons I took so long to write. the book. was it was really important to me that I. not put it out from a place of saying. like here is a referendum on how I feel. that I have been perceived because I I. feel like every. two years they publish a new article. about a woman and they're like blank is. finally telling all. Beep is finally herself. ABC in her own words. And it's like like.

in a lot of ways I think it's about. keeping a career arc alive. And I wanted to make sure that in. publishing the book that I knew what my. own aims were and I don't like revenge. writing. I don't like like um writing. that's like. here I am kiss my ass. Like it's it was. really like hopefully I know there are. other people who will understand this. and more than ever before I feel that. I'm at peace with the fact that there. are people who will never understand and.

and they don't need to. >> Right at the beginning of the book, you. write about your name. >> Lena Dunham. >> Yeah. >> And how uh you felt like your name. almost started just and this is for you. not even for other people. Your name for. you started to have carry negative. connotations. Like I think you say it. almost was like a sounded like a joke. that kind of felt like a slur or. something. So what did your name. represent, do you think? >> Well, it became synonymous like there. was a period of time where I would be. watching just like a show I enjoyed and.

then I would hear my own name and it. would take me like three minutes to. realize that there had been a joke that. was synonymous with whether it was like. myopic millennial thinking or. hapless feminism or. man hating or like liberal twitdom or. you know. >> It's a long list of course yeah. >> and like [laughter] they're were the. people who maybe shared my politics and. shared my lifestyle but were irritated. that I was talking but suddenly I was.

like it meant one thing to people who. did connect to me. It meant something to. it had a meaning and sort of an I mean I. was very. early. had an early experience of the alt-right. internet that I think. was very specific and then it also meant. something different to people who were. just like turning it into a sassy. punchline. But I didn't feel I remember there was a. day and this is not in the book where I. was. going to vote with my father and I'd.

been on the I'd been campaigning for. Obama. It was 2012. And I remember he said like I don't know. maybe you should just go I don't know if. I want to go vote with like Lena Dunham. And I was like my father. feels like going to vote with me is. going to like signal something when he. just is like a waspy man who wants to. get in and get out. >> Right. It's not like voting. >> Yes, like he's like I don't want to go. and have it be like a whole thing where. we're voting together. And that. >> crazy. >> Yeah, it's crazy. That's your father so.

who's like my best friend in the world. But he was saying basically can you just. go around the block and vote on your. own. And that was the moment when I kind. of understood something's going on here. cuz the show had only been on the air. for 6 months at that point. >> And I mean. with the benefit of hindsight. what do you think that the. intensity [clears throat]. of sort of the the loathing. was which seemed so disproportionate. Like you were a person that had a TV.

show. >> Yeah, it's crazy. >> And and. you know the HBO numbers are not. network sitcom numbers. >> That show was watched by like. if we think about it that show was. watched by like less than a million. people a week. >> So what do you think that the depth of. that um. negative feeling was really about? >> I mean, I'd be lying if I didn't say I. haven't spent time thinking about this. cuz you have to. It's you can't It can't. be avoided. I'm going to say something that's going. to sound like a cop out and I don't but.

I can only phrase it this way. I have annoyed people since I was so. small. Like I was an annoying kid. It was. truly at school. Like I was a try-hard. I was loud. I was didn't always know how. to operate in like I didn't always know. how to like move through space with. other kids in a way that wasn't a little. bit off or disruptive. And. one I remember one of my friends being.

like, "But you've annoyed everybody. since preschool. Like what's go But I. also that's coupled with. there was like the intense rage about. the female sexuality on the show. There. was the intense rage about my body, which is so crazy to look back on now. cuz I was this like little slip of a. 26-year-old and had I known my own. powers, I would have behaved very. differently. Um and then like I would be. lying if I didn't say that my own way of.

moving, whether it was through media or. how I sort of myself online or even in. my writing, didn't didn't quell it. And. then of course, as detailed in the book. like my all of that had an effect on my. health, my mental health, which then. began to deteriorate, which was a secret. I was trying to keep. And those secrets. are hard to keep. >> Uh a second ago. you were saying, you know, you're when. you were 26 and just a slip of a person,

if if you had known your power, you. would have behaved differently. What did. you mean by that? >> Great. Great zeroing in there. I guess. what I'm saying is that. I thought I was the most. the the feedback that I got, which was. like, this is uh the most ungainly. thing. This person is an eyesore. Like, that's how I perceived myself. The show. was about somebody who had a negative. self-perception and made romantic. and and platonic choices that reflected.

that. And I guess something that is Listen, would that we could all do our youth. over, but now that I'm going to be 40. years old, it's like. looking back, I looked at a lot of. photos and diaries and moments to put. the book together, and I felt sad that that person didn't. have a sense that she It's not even just. about being normatively beautiful, although like the I. although the way that I. was spoken about, I mean, that's what.

so many women's bodies look like. That's. not what my body looks like anymore. But it was. I was like full of light. And if And. it's interesting as I looked at the. photos over the course of the show, I. could see It's such a cliché, but it was. like the lights just went out. >> It's clear from the book and even just, you know, thinking back to how sometimes. you would respond to to critics online, you know, you you were pretty aware of. the negativity that. was uh uh sort of circling around you.

all the time online specifically. And um. I'm wondering if if you can talk about. like what the what the lure of engaging. with that negativity. was. Because And maybe it's a naive. thing to say, I I kind of wonder like, why don't you just not go on the. internet? >> You're right. And I remember my parents. used to say, that doesn't exist. If you. just shut your phone, it doesn't exist. And I was really like, you guys don't. understand. This is a different world. You check your email once a week. But they were right. I think one of the.

many contradictions of my life is that I. like to express myself in totality. I. like to. maybe do make things that. I never thought of anything that I made. as controversial, but I also. like I grew up in the New York art. world. Like I grew up going to see like. Vito Acconci do Seedbed. Like I wasn't. having an experience of any kind of. moralism, in fact the opposite. The idea.

was like if you say it's art, it's art. and art is designed to like stretch the. human capacity for. understanding. And so I. never thought of anything I did as. controversial. And then my feeling was, well yeah, I like to make whatever I. want, but then I don't want anyone to. ever be upset with me. And so when it. came, I think that what it seemed like. at the time was that again that I was. always trying to explain myself to. people, not really realizing that.

actually it was cyclical. >> And And. What do you think it is about. either you or. people. >> Yeah. >> that. that the. the negative stuff. even in the face of so much positive. affirmation you were getting. is is what. you know, is what sort of sticks with. you? Because the other, you know, you. you were. getting all this negative [ __ ] all the.

time, but also you were mid-20s, had a. had like a very buzzy popular show, probably a lot of opportunities. >> Yeah, I was incredibly rewarded for what. I did, you know? >> So, why why doesn't why didn't that part. of it seem to stick? >> A really great question, and I think. it's a human nature question. Because. you know, one friend of mine who read. the book was like, you know, you reflect. so much on the relationships that were. painful, but like where are all the. people that. loved you and supported you and took.

care of you? And. I hope that I mean, they're all in the. acknowledgements, but I was born with. such a healthy dose of guilt, shame, and. self-hatred, which is. in direct contrast to my. almost. pathological need to continuously. express myself, and that is like the. those things are dancing all the time. >> You think you were born with a. self-hatred? >> I mean, not to get too woo-woo, but sometimes I.

feel like we just are like. there's so much just. ancient generational stuff. It's like. >> MacLaine style or. >> No, I'm not going to go as far although. I respect Shirley MacLaine's work as and. I. >> Who Who wouldn't? Yeah. >> And I'm not against going there, but and you know, who hasn't tried past. life regression once if they're going. through something? But I guess, you. know, there's this. like pride mixed with this incredible.

desire to like self-immolate and. self-erase, and I don't ever remember. not having it. So, that makes me feel like it. And I don't. look at my parents and go, "You guys did this to me." So, that. makes it a little bit of an existential. mystery. >> Um. I have some questions that relate to. that, but I I'm going to cuz I have a. theory about this existential mystery. for you, but I'm going to save it. I'm. going to save it. >> If David and Morpheus can explain me to. me, it would be. it would help me a lot and save me a lot. of money.

>> [laughter]. >> Well, you can make the check out to. cash. Okay, great. >> But before that, you were. you're living through this period where. there was all this kind of um. distracting and and. painful noise in the outside world, and. you were having complicated. relationships with the people you were. working with. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. and on top of that, you were you were feeling unwell. You. were you were ill. Um. how did. your health.

affect. your relationships with the people. around you? >> One of the reasons the book is called. Fame Sick is cuz the two most corrosive. forces in my relationships were. celebrity, how it perverted the space around old. relationships, how it colored my ability. to understand new relationships and. whether they were authentic, and illness. because illness like fame. can make you. zero in and contract into self because.

like. pain, physical pain, is like one of the. most selfish feelings that exist because. all you want is to be out of it. And. then also illness is really scary to. people. So, they want a narrative in which you it. happen you had a cold for 3 days, you. recovered, you got appendicitis, they. took it out. And the relentlessness of it and the. fact that it was like I was like, "Okay, I got a surgery, I'm going to be. better." And then. 3 months later, something and I didn't.

have a sense of like medical misogyny. I. didn't have a sense of the I was raised. to be like. I'm a good Jewish girl and what doctors. tell me I listen to and to assume that. they were right. And somehow my health picture kept. getting less clear, not more clear, which also makes it very I understand. very hard for other people to empathize. with because it seems abstract, amorphous, like. >> And they lose sympathy or think that.

you're making it up. >> Yeah. And also, we live in a society. where the highest value for people. is like like movies that people come in. they're like, "I slept 2 hours, I drank. a coffee, I said bye to my wife, I'm. back." Like they treat it like an. extreme sport and the highest value is. just to be able to go and go and go. And. it took me a really long time to. understand that wasn't like my only. value, that actually. I could have a fragile body and a strong. mind and have a lot to offer without um.

like betraying my own physical self over. and over and over again, but it's still. a dance all the time. >> You also. in addition to being chronically ill, you had. multiple. traumatic bodily experiences, which I'm. really sorry that you. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> You you but you you you you write about. being a child and and a babysitter.

molesting you. >> Yeah. >> You write about abusive sexual. relationships. >> Yeah. >> And so. >> I'm like, yeah. >> [laughter]. [gasps]. >> So how did. And and so all those. those. experiences, you know, what's the there. you know, I haven't didn't coin this. phrase, but the body keeps the score. >> Yes. >> All those experiences with your body had. you sort of. myriad emotional ripples. So how how did. your sense of your.

body. affect. your sense your own sense of self? >> [snorts]. >> It's a really. interesting. I mean, I have a whole sort of theory of the. case about illness that would take a. long time. I was never a healthy kid. and often that was perceived as you. know, she just wants to lie in her bed. and like I really was always fighting. against like laziness label. Like I was.

like, I will prove to you that is not. what I am. even if my body is a little floppy. Those experiences. that you describe. created a distance between. myself and my body. that then made it hard to identify. quickly. It made it easy to separate. myself from pain and to keep moving, but. it made it hard to tune into my own body.

and identify what was happening to me. physically. There's a book about EDS, about Ehlers-Danlos syndrome, my sort of. kind of like overriding diagnosis, which. is called um The Body Is a Doorway by. Sophie Strand, and she said this thing. where she which I I couldn't believe. someone else was saying, but she said, "I've always felt like. I was a balloon floating above my body.". And I had said that countless times and. had no idea that anybody else in the.

world experienced that. You know, I once. had a really interesting conversation. with Gabor Maté, uh who's amazing. thinker. He was interviewing me for a. book that he wrote about the sort of. intersection between illness, addiction, and trauma. And he has like one of some of the most. developed, I think, thoughts about that. of anyone working. And I asked him this question. I said, like, "Why. I understand it happening once when I'm. a little kid, why does this keep.

happening to me?". >> What is the this in. >> The this is. finding myself. in situations where I am suddenly not in. control of what is happening to my body. Another person is making the decisions. And he said, "Lena, it's like. once you have that experience as a kid, it's like like the weak wolf that gets. picked off the pack. Like, someone who. is looking for that sees you.".

And it wasn't shaming. It wasn't It was. so beautifully put, which is like these. experiences build up in you, you develop. more distance from your body, people who. want to cross boundaries are able to. identify that you are someone who might. not. know how to deflect that. And because before it felt like this. like series of unfortunate Lemony. Snicket series of unfortunate events, and I needed some. like I needed some cohesion and I needed. some narrative cohesion to understand.

why there was this like consistent. pattern of. feeling at least violated. And that was. really. soothing to me. And then. once you get sick, especially. gynecological illness, which is still. not like the most beloved topic in. American culture, we might say, your feeling of yourself as a vital. young person is extremely diminished, and your feeling of yourself as like a.

viable partner is extremely diminished. And it is also. a crazy hormonal ride, which So it's. There's a lot I hoped that in the book I. was able to capture those. different kind of um like buckets in. which illness separates you from. yourself. >> Sort of the the psychological paradigm. that you just described, uh sort of. coming coming from. uh Gabor Mate is his name, where where.

you know, it's like. people saw something in you that they. could. exploit in a way. Uh. >> And and I want to say to anyone who's. hearing this, that's not anyone's fault. People we know culturally now more than. ever that people who are exploiters are. going to do exploiting. And they're. looking for the people they can do it to. in the most consequence-free way. And that is not the fault of the person.

being exploited. That's the fault of the. person doing the exploiting. >> I also want to know how how that. paradigm fits or doesn't with. descriptions you give in the book of. sort of uh. abusive or near abusive sexual. relationships where you had feelings of. you know. like wanting to be degraded or or like. you. were seeking out.

situations in which. seemingly like you could confirm the bad. feelings you had about yourself. >> My experience was that there was. something about. recreating. a situation I had been in not by choice. with some measure of what appeared to be. my own free will [snorts]. that somehow made me think that if I. executed it right, I could erase the. thing that had happened before. And. maybe I will even be. loved for my ability to perform well in.

this kind of dynamic. And it's. interesting because now like kink and. sub dom stuff and everybody's on field, but like when I was 24 and these things. were happening to me, I thought I was. alone. I thought I was the biggest I. like would go home and I'd be like, I. cannot even look my parents in the eye. No one has ever been a worse child than. me. And. of course these things have existed. since. the beginning of time. Now we have. language we have language for people to.

identify their desires in a healthy way. We also know that sometimes people use. this language to uh. excuse behavior that is actually not. consensual or not healthy. And I think in the book I wanted to. capture the complexity of. placing yourself in a situation that you. knew was. at least to the outside world unsavory. and trying to find some shred of dignity.

or romance in it. And I think the saddest thing for me. looking back was the idea that I thought. at the other end of it there might be. something resembling love. >> Yeah. Yeah. This is um. maybe a difficult question to have. perspective on or. maybe even a a little too. psychologically abstract in a way, but. do you do you. uh might there be ways in which your. the dynamics that you just described in.

terms of the sort of like personal or. sexual relationships. had parallels in your relationship with. the public? >> Yes. Like, you know, it's a classic. It's like, I'm going to lean into what. people think I am, but I'm going to do. it my way. I'm going to find my version. of it. And actually. >> But leaning into a thing that you know. makes you feel bad. >> 100%. And I think the thing that. concerned my parents is is this book. another iteration of that? >> Yeah. >> And I had to explain to them sort of. what I explained to you, which is like, I had to get comfortable with the idea.

that this is what I had to do to keep. like, I had to write this to keep living. my life in a way that felt felt true. But I know people who and have been in a. dynamic where you're continuing to go in. and go in and go in and it's like the. girl in the horror movie where you're. like, "Don't go down the stairs.". She's going down the stairs. You know. why she's going down the stairs? Cuz. she's a [ __ ] and she's going to get. killed. So, that's like. it 100% echoes it. And what was also interesting was those.

dynamics which were in life scary at. times lonely. those would be recreated on television. and people thought they were funny and. fun and at times sexy. And you know, I. didn't write Adam's character to be a. romantic hero. And by the end everyone. was like, "I want a boyfriend like that. I want a boyfriend who throws. 2 by 4s and spanks me. And that is not. what I was going for, but it was. certainly a lesson in what we desire.

cannot be untangled from what we have. been through and what we fear. It just. can't. >> I want to ask about two of sort of the. your central relationships during the. girls period. >> Yeah. >> And the first is with Jenny Konner. So. you So you write. So Jenny Konner co-showrunner um sort of. your what do you call like consigliere. during the show? >> Yeah, she was my partner in making the. show and she was my teacher and she was. my best friend at the time.

>> and you. had this incredibly supportive. also kind of symbiotic relationship. while you were working on the show and. that. ultimately that relationship sort of. soured and it seems. that by the end of the book the. the conflict there or the tension there. is really around values. And. you imply that. sort of there was like a trans a. business kind of transactional. aspect. to your relationship with Jenny from her.

perspective that was. sort of not quite with. what didn't align with what your goals. were, you know, what your values were. which you you in in the book say are. basically art and family. And I want to. know if your relationship with Jenny or. not if I want to know what your. relationship with Jenny. taught you about the difficulty of. being in business with friends. >> I mean I have so much. that this is not like when I say I have.

so much gratitude. I have so much. gratitude for Jenny. The amount of times. in a day that I think about something. that she taught me or I say a joke that. is deeply embedded in the history of our. friendship and sort of laugh with. myself. Like she was my. you know, I mean I remember my mom. saying like this is your first real. friend. And I also. was. extremely naive about the fact that when. you work with people and your.

creative financial futures are. intertwined, there are going to be. moments where that is just in tension. with friendship. I was not an adult and. I was. I still lived with my parents and I was. desperately looking for safety and for a. sense of security and for a sense of. something that was um. I just forgot the word for oh, unconditional. Something that felt. unconditional and business relationships. are.

>> They're conditional. >> Yeah, by definition. >> And I remember again, my parents who. come up a lot in this book, their. wisdom, my father being like, you know, not everybody like says I love you to. everyone they work with and like sleeps. over at their house. And I look back at. that and I think that. I can recognize now as a 40-year-old the. inherent challenges of that and that in. a way I was looking for a different kind. of relationship than the one that work. can provide. >> Is there uh.

a way. that you can imagine that things would. have. developed with her that would have. allowed you to to continue working. together or do you think it was sort of. a necessary. break that had to happen? >> I made a necessary break with. everything. So. >> Huh. >> I don't think I mean, there was there's. a moment that I talk about in the book. where I. broke up with my business partner, I. broke up with my partner, I had a. hysterectomy, I stepped back from work.

It was It was like I went from. full-on to. like sitting in a back room in my. parents' apartment in silence collaging. letters together and like making like my. mom coming in and being like, "That's. really nice." Which like you've made a. collage that says see me or something. Like it was not. it it was not a time where I was capable. of really keeping anything going. And I'm not a big. So much has happened in my life that's. wonderful and so much has happened. that's challenging. I'm not a big redux.

person. Like I look back and I go. I remember once I said to my mom like, "I'm so glad you're my mom." And she was. like, "It could have been no other way.". And. there's so much it could have been no. other way in this story. And I like went. I had to detach from this entity that I. had created. And everyone who was. responsible for helping me keep that. entity alive. >> Um the the. that line that your mom said, you know,

that it could have been no other way. sort of echoes uh a line that Adam. Driver says in the book where sort of. you guys are. kind of wrapping up your work together. on Girls. And you know, I I can't. remember if you're apologizing or you're. you're just sort of. >> We're sort of saying like look what's. happened. >> he says something like, you know, it is. how it had to be. >> Yeah. Um. >> That was my long-winded way of segueing. into an Adam Driver question. >> Yeah. >> Uh uh which you know, you the the Adam.

Driver that you describe in the book. just as as a an artistic collaborator is. sort of this uh at least my reading of. it is kind of like a volatile extremely. intense. artist. >> Yeah. >> Uh who you know, who could get really. mad on set or you know, do things that. felt risky. What did you think was. driving that behavior on the set? >> You know, I think that. that was all of our first job.

So, I wouldn't presume to know how. anyone I wouldn't say that Girls would. be a road map for how anyone behaved. anywhere else. It's like it was very. like seven strangers sent to live in a. house in Seattle. What's going to. happen? You know, a bunch of I mean, it's. one thing that's miraculous is like no. one dated and no one. punched each other. Like it was in a way. we did the best you possibly could. And. always, and I hope I portray this in the. book, like Adam is a meticulous.

artist. And where he has to go to get there. is secondary to me to where he gets. And. I mean. I love watching him. I learned more from. him than anyone I've ever. stood across from on camera. I feel like. in a way like that was the best I'll. ever be at acting and I don't. I don't know if I could even. pull that off again because so much of. it came from what was being handed to.

me. But you know, one person wants to be. left alone in the corner to. breathe. One person wants to be like. talking shop right until the minute we. go. I once did scenes with a guy who used to. do the night at the Roxbury headbang. until the minute that we called action. Um which is like a little weird during. sex scenes, but you know, it happens. But um so I I think I've had a I think I. have a deeper understanding and. sometimes I I mean, I'm not a big I just.

said I'm not a big Redux person, but. like. >> You did just write a memoir, so. >> just write a memoir. And I think that like were I to go back. that. I would so not take that behavior. personally. Like I would understand. everyone's just. doing what they need to do to to make it. happen. >> There's this scene in in the book um. involving you and Adam where it it seems. like there had. you know, the idea of you guys having.

you two having a sexual relationship was. like in the air sort of and and you. make a plan for him to come to your. apartment and you know, he says yes and. this is this is in in your telling and. >> Like what are you talking about? That's. not in the book. I didn't put that in. the book. >> [laughter]. >> And he gets there and calls calls up to. you and you don't answer the call. because it seems.

you were. sort of. apprehensive about what the. sort of emotional fallout of sleeping. together might have been. Um, I think. the word you use in the book is. you know, you were you were worried. about maybe some possible humiliation or. whatever it was and and. why like why was humiliation the the. thing that you were worried about. happening there? >> I mean it's just I was afraid about.

humiliation happening everywhere. So. and I also want to say like when you're. that age. there's this like I remember in college. you go out at night and it's like. every single you look around at like. your 15 guy friends and it's like who's. going to kiss who tonight? Like it's so. there's something in the air all the. time but it might mean nothing and I. think in that relationship what I was. trying to capture was not necessarily. um. specific to that dynamic but was this. feeling like we were all coming out of.

that phase and entering this adult. professional phase where we were still. kind of. moving through the world in this. youthful way where it was all ripe with. possibility and not saying what we felt. and trying to read each other's signals. and there was something. scary about it and there was something. glamorous about it and. and then having an adult awakening that. um. having an adult awakening that.

that wasn't always um. I had you know I I had been so of the. mind that like. any scrap of. positive male attention was going to. automatically. elevate me to some I don't know so I. wouldn't be scared of um suddenly I. would never be afraid of death again but. um. and then realizing actually that the. supreme force was the work and that. everything had to much like Adams acting.

everything had to be in service of that. work. >> Uh the the um. sort of another of the central. relationships you write it in about in. the book is your relationship with Jack. Antonoff. >> Yeah. >> And. I want to know how. fame. helped deepen that relationship. and then how fame also may have. destabilized that relationship. >> So. I'll just start with saying like it's so.

thrilling now to look. at sort of. now to look at that to have met this. person you know the week that his first. single came out and to see the. trajectory of his career and his powers. it's a unique privilege to have every. breakup song you love written by your. ex. I feel blessed. Um. when I was I talk about this in book but. when I was at rehab this girl kept. playing this song or this pink song over. and over and over again and at one point. I was like. my ex-boyfriend wrote that and she.

looked at me like okay lady. and I've and I'm the queen of England. but um what I tried to capture in the. book is like. you know I was very I was a really late. bloomer so that was my first you know a. lot of people are like had my high. school boyfriend then I had my college. boyfriend. I didn't even have a um. a language to think that like when you I. felt like you fall in love with someone. and then you're together for the rest of. your life. Like I was so you know my. parents got together when they were 27, they're 76 now. They like met in Soho as.

young artists. I was like okay, I'm. perfectly on time. Here we go. And. something I talk about in the book is. like that. ending was extremely. um intense for me in a way where I. looked around and I was like, is. everybody this upset about their. breakup? But it was also because of what. it represented publicly for me, which. was the idea that like. if you have this dynamic. intelligent, talented man who is signing.

off on you, how bad could you really be? >> Right. Right. Yeah. I I just you know as. I've not experienced a relationship with. a famous person, but uh. there I would I would think there's got. to be something where. like sort of exhilarating or. intoxicating or it's like you're you're. you're super cool and I'm super cool and. the world's telling us we're all super. cool and like I love you and I love you. and everything's super awesome and then. like but then at some point life has to. happen and it's it's like. >> Well also what delays life more than the.

things that prevent you from having to. deal with life, right? Are. like lots of. external support, money. I'm like no one. under 30 should be given any money. because then they can just like play. house for as long as they want and. something that I really respect about. Jack and Love is he's like a real. entertainer. He brings like positivity. and joy and has a deep deep connection. with his audience and cares and.

I'm a much. different internal weird. other kind of creature and it's like. it's like. I don't know what it is. It's like we. have On the one hand we have. Bruce Springsteen and on the other hand. we have. I don't know what I I was about to be. like Edna St. Vincent Millay after she. got addicted to opium and fell down the. stairs. And they're living together in an. apartment. It's an interesting reality. show. Um. and it was so special to have that buddy.

through everything. But then life does happen and the most. intense version of life happening is. illness. And. I try to make it really clear in the. book that any young person who was. around that and thought. this isn't what I want my life to look. like right now. I have no. blame because I was like this isn't what. I want my life to look like either. >> Um. you're pretty coy about who the teen pop. star. was. in that Jack is hanging around with in.

the book. >> pop star in the book, David. You. misread. You misread. >> Do you think it would be a. giving people a green light. of pure heroin. to to really say who the pop star was? >> You rehearsed that for. That was really. good. >> [laughter]. >> But it was Connie Francis. >> interesting. >> Yeah, wow. It was Connie Francis. >> Oh, interesting. Uh. you know, I I'm conscious of the time. I. don't want you to feel trapped here, but.

I feel like I'm just hopscotching around. cuz there's so much in the book and it's. hard. But um. >> [laughter]. >> Can I ask about rehab now? >> Yeah, of course. I. loved rehab. I did. I genuinely did. >> And just just for for sort of. chronological context. So this is. happening so girls is done. >> Girls finished in in September of 2016. It's going to be 10 years this year. >> You kind of. bottom out for a and so probably it's. about 20. >> April of 2018. I turned 32 the day that.

I left. And I'm about to be 40. So I've. been sober for it'll be. willing um. 8 years in April. >> Good for you. >> Thank you. >> Yeah. It's been a really. good thing for me. Something that I. didn't know I needed because I never. drank, I never smoked weed. Pretty much. until the minute I got there, I had no. idea that I belonged there. I thought I. was following doctor's instructions a. little too well, and suddenly I realized. that I had a like many American people a.

dependent relationship with. pharmaceuticals, and that. I was lucky enough that I could go. somewhere and work through that rather. than sort of like so many people have. to, you know, grip the walls in their. car or their bedroom, and. and um. and it was a really. important. page-turn experience. A lot of addiction. is feeling a positive feeling that is in. direct contrast with the rest of your. life looks like. Your life is falling. apart, and you're like sitting on your.

bed in a good mood. There's nothing in. that. And I want to have good feelings. that like you can explore and move. through and are layered. I want to have. good feelings where you look under them. and there's more good feelings. >> You know, earlier in the conversation. you know, you said you kind of felt like. you were. born with certain feelings about. yourself. And those uh. feelings. you know, then had all sorts of. ramifications for. >> Yeah. >> the life you led and the feelings that.

you were comfortable with, and the. feelings that you pursued. And uh. I want to just throw a theory my theory. out for you. >> I was born with it is like a cop-out. Do. you know what I mean? It's not actually. wanting to. going I was born that way. Great Lady. Gaga song. Very positive message. This. is a different story. So, yes, I'd love. your theory. Thank you, David. >> And you tell me if it's hooey, and but. um. I I wondered if because of your chronic. illness. your.

normal state, the state of being. which was actually comfortable for you. was a state of extreme discomfort. And. as a result, in all these different. ways, whether it's your relationship. with the public or maybe with other. people, or your relationship sexually, you. put yourself in positions where you were. going to feel bad. >> Yeah. >> Because feeling bad was your baseline.

>> I think that's. I'm taking that back to therapy, David. That's really. thoughtful and compelling. and true. And the yes, and I would add cuz there's. no no, is. that. when you're in pain, the only thing that. overrides it is more pain and different. pain. That's why I have so many tattoos, cuz like if you're in pain and then. somebody's. tattooing you for an hour, that's what. you're focused on.

And if you're in pain and somebody else. takes the reins and puts you through an. experience, that's what you're focused on. And. it's interesting because my capacity for. discomfort has also been something that. has helped me a lot in my life. My. ability to withstand. stress, my ability to deal with like. like my husband is like. you have like more. [ __ ] going on in an hour than I do the. entire year. He's like, if I. was having your day, which is just a.

normal day doing show business things, he's like I would go to bed and I. wouldn't get up. The first time that we. we created a show together, the show too. much, um. and we got our first review and he was. awake and he gets the Guardian and it. was a like one star and he threw up. And. I like I turned into like a coach. I was. like do you like your life? You got to. pay to play, brother. Like I I got I. became someone completely different. But. it was like that ability to handle.

negative inputs. I'm not going to say. with elegance cuz that's not a word. anyone would associate with me, but at. least with a certain kind of stoicism. and moving ahead is something that has. like sustained me and has certainly come. from being sick. >> So let me this is this will be the final. question for this go round. This go. round. The um. So. you're someone who. particularly early in your career was.

criticized for oversharing. This term oversharing. And. I want to know. what you've learned. up to this point from. having the experience of. of sharing so so deeply in. in your art on. uh. you know arguably overlong Instagram.

comments. >> Yeah, some people some people might say. they're long. I might say I'm using the. medium in a fresh new way, David. >> Uh. >> Who says Instagram is not a platform for. half-baked essays about your. relationship to bikinis? >> Uh. And and now also ha- having shared so. deeply. and in such detailed fashion in the. book. >> Yeah. >> So so. what do what do you now understand about. sort of processing who you are.

in kind of a public fashion? >> Well, it's interesting like the idea of. oversharing cuz now we have all these. words like trauma dumping or like the. idea that like you can share in a way. that's sort of like and you can share in. a way that's a violation to other. people. Like I now and I'm not people. think I'm joking, but I'll like be. having conversations be like are you. comfortable with me sharing something. about sexual violence? And they're like, what? Like I I never want to people will. make the choice to pick up my book, they'll know what it will be, but I'm. actually like.

I think I try to be quite conscious of. in life. like not loading people up with stuff. that they don't need. And I certainly. have lots of people come up to me in the. street and load me up with stuff I might. not need, but I like it anyway. Keep it coming. And I think that. I also think that oversharing is a label. that's almost exclusively assigned to. women. Like a memoir about the same. things for a man would be considered. brave, incisive, and.

>> rebellious. >> rebellious. Like we're having we're. having fun here. >> That's. all the words. And. and the idea is like your. feminine, female, whatever exper- queer, whatever it may like insert experience. belongs. behind closed doors where it was meant. you know, like keep it. stuff it down and get back on your. fainting couch. And I.

always as. a kid looked around and felt frustrated. by what people weren't saying. I was. always trying to understand like when. we're making movies we're like, "What's. the note behind the note?" Like I was. like, "I know there's something I'm. missing and I know there's something. people aren't saying and I don't like. this feeling of being on the other. side.". I don't know who someone said it. There's a quote someone wrote. I don't. like being on the other side of secrets. I don't like it and so. when I was. old enough to write and share my work,

it felt. important to me to crack that. And when. I have felt It's not even about how. other people have reacted. When I. haven't felt satisfied with my own work. is when I've tried to take a complex. thought and trivialize it. Like I'm no. longer interested in like big sweeping. statements about female sexuality or. the experience or like I'm interested in.

long-term exploration of topics that I. will return to again and again hopefully. till I'm a very old lady. >> [music]. >> And I'm looking forward to returning. some of these to some of these topics. with you. >> [laughter]. >> Thank you so much. Thank you. >> Thank [music] you. On the interview, we talked to our guest. twice. So a week later, Lena Dunham and. I spoke again after she got input on our.

first conversation from her therapist. Okay. >> Will I get in trouble if I bring a La. Colombe latte by my face occasionally? >> I don't think so. >> Okay, good. I didn't know if there was. like a branding issue. Okay, maybe they. won't want to be associated with me. >> Um but you know, Lena, you do feel so. or you seem to me so at peace. or reconciled maybe would be a better. word. with so much of what you write about in.

the book, but there is one. uh area where. I sort of. intuit that maybe you don't feel. um quite as much at peace and and that's. around the. like the statement that you put out in. 2020 2017. Yeah. Um you which you write about in in. the book in in like a slightly. oblique way, but you know, you you. defended uh the Girls writer Murray. Miller uh against accusations of rape.

You later apologized for it for for that. defense. Uh you also write about in the. book how you you know, I think maybe you. had. >> [clears throat]. >> you were not in in a great head space at. that time. You were sort of in a. confused uh place. Um. >> I was on drugs. It's okay to say that I. was on drugs. And that's Yeah. >> But it it it seems. like that still sort of weighs heavily. on you. So, and I was just wondering. like have you forgiven yourself for.

that? >> I think And by the way, I didn't say I. was on drugs to kind of like create a. blanket excuse. Just when you said. confused headspace, I was like, "No need. to No need to be polite about it.". >> Yeah. >> I think what I was trying to get The. reason I wrote about it in an oblique. way is just because I felt like it that. story touches on a lot of other people's. lives, and I struggled with whether to. even include it, but it felt. important because it was a real bottom. in my sense of myself and my sense of.

my relationship to the public. And as. for the question of will I ever forgive. myself or will I think that. I think what I was trying to say is that. there were lots of things that publicly. I look back and I go, "That was so dumb. That was so dumb how people responded. That was so I did not have to. apologize. That The entire thing was a. strange dance, but that was one where. I did have to apologize, and I'm.

grateful that I had the opportunity to. And. I can only hope that the way that I. included it in the book won't feel. gratuitous or like it dredges too much. up for. other people. And it was um It was. definitely a dance to figure out how to. do that. >> I have another question that connects to. uh. my my big theory I had about some of. your behavior from from from. >> the way, I did You know how I said I'm. going to take your theory to my.

therapist? >> Yeah. >> I did. And. I mean, she seemed pretty in She seemed. to agree. She seemed to think like, "Yeah, that guy's got the got this got. the joint cased. Then she offered um. some further thoughts. that had to do with my childhood and I. was like, I got to go sleep. >> [laughter]. >> Um. okay, so let let let me let me. air it out. So, you know. we were talking about how.

you know, sort of people could work. could really just be mean to you. Like. you became a a punching bag and I. you sort of was wondering if if you were. saying. >> cuz it was safe to do it on the right. and it was safe to do it on the left. And we do need things like that. >> [laughter]. >> Sorry, don't make me laugh. I'm asking a. serious question. But uh um but you. know, the the thing I I left out of that. was. you know, and so sort of my theory was. that, you know, in in some ways maybe, you know, you you were looking to feel.

bad. But the thing the thing I I left. out of that was of course that you were. at times. saying provocative things that sort of. made people angry or or or irritated, you know? And. you know, I don't I don't I don't want. to go through the list. Uh. but you know, I I just wondered if you. know, there there obviously was a way in. which you were interested in pushing. boundaries. And you've probably always I. think you even write about in the book. You've always been interested in pushing. boundaries. But I wondered if maybe the. thing that you were interested in wasn't. just the pushing of the boundary, but. getting scolded for pushing the. boundary. You know, self-awareness. >> you know, there there obviously was a. way in which you were interested in.

pushing boundaries. and you've probably always I think you. even write about in the book. You've. always been interested in pushing. boundaries. Yeah. But I wondered if. maybe the thing that you were interested. in wasn't just the pushing of the. boundary, but getting scolded for. pushing the boundary. You know, self-awareness like 20 so I wouldn't say. it's the specialty of the house for. 20-somethings. So, I probably wouldn't have been able. to hear that and receive that when. things were going on. I mean, my.

it was a complicated mix because I also. like. I was always interested in pushing. boundaries, but I also came from a very. boundary pushing place. Like. >> Right. >> I was 10 and like going to see an art. show where it was like a woman sold. herself to an art collector as the art. And so you're watching a video of the. two of them having sex and I'm standing. there and watching it between my. parents. Like my sense of what was. was like naughty behavior was different. Like you know, one of my father's big.

thought things he always said when we. were kids is there are no bad thoughts, only bad actions. A lot of people think there are bad. thoughts. And that you're supposed to I mean a lot. of the and that you're supposed to keep. your bad thoughts to yourself. And I always thought like if we're all. just saying what our worst thoughts are, then we're saying them and we don't. aren't alone with them and isn't that. better? So there was a part of me that. just had a really different like world. view, but also the thing that you're.

saying is 100% accurate, too. Like I And. I think I said to you in the last. interview is like one of the great. conflicts of my life is that I like to. do and make whatever I want and then. have no one ever be mad about it. And I. remember once saying that to my parents. and my mom being like, "Well, that's. actually the most self-aware thing. you've ever said.". >> [laughter]. >> You know, so so one thing that actually. uh I was thinking about with the book. was uh something that felt a little. absent uh for me. And and that was um.

you know, the book is so much about the. life uh. and I felt it it wasn't so much about. the art. You know, sort of where where. the art comes from, who who, you know, sort of what you were trying to convey. at different uh parts of your career, what you know, what you took from the. artists who were important to you. Um. And I know all that stuff can can be. very hard for artists to write about. Sometimes they don't even know the. answers to to those kinds of questions.

But was that an intentional choice on. your part? >> The first part is that. there were so many other people. telling us what they thought that Girls. was about in positive ways, in negative. ways. Practically more people talking about. what it was about than even watch the. show. So many people had thoughts and. and I also. learned to sort of keep. It was like it was so precious to me. what I was maybe actually trying to say.

and so expansive that it was easier to. talk about other things and to keep that. stuff close to the vest. But then also. I'm still so in my life as a. writer and as a director and it grows. and it changes it all the time. And so there's something about talking. about your. sort of vision for your work or your or. your very specific creative interest. that feels like you're 88 and like. looking back on. a complete life. But now that you're saying it I mean.

those when you said, you know, what you. took from the artist that were important. to you. That could be a whole separate. book in which I talked about who I was. obsessed with at any given time and what. I took from their life and what I took. from their work and and so it was almost. too vast to touch, I think. >> Yeah. You know, the what you just said. about how there was so much discussion. around the work. Um. you know, it's. it's obvious that sort of the the insane. amount of attention you were getting.

back then. Um you know, it's it's receded. You're. not the the focus of the of scrutiny in. the same way. >> No. >> Is there anything that feels. freeing. creatively about not sort of being a a. sort of a public figure in the same way. because I'm just thinking of an example. like I was trying to think of. uh analogies earlier. When I was thinking about this question. I and it's not a perfect analogy, but. you'll get what I mean. There's somebody. like um you know, like a Paul Newman who.

who arguably when he stopped being like. tippy top of the A-list leading man and. started doing kind of quieter smaller. more character parts like his work. actually got kind of more interesting in. a in a way. I wonder if if sort of that. resonates for you at all. >> I mean, I would love to feel analogous. to. still tanned and sexy midlife Paul. Newman taking on. more independent [clears throat] and. character roles. So thank you. I mean for me personally, I can.

everything feels freeing about it. >> Oh, good. >> And now. it's this kind of miraculous thing where. I get to make work that's exciting to. me. Of course, there are projects still. that interest me that I know are not. going to necessarily [clears throat]. excite, you know, some of the things. when I go like you know, I'd love to do. a slow and meandering depiction of women. who spent time around Jack Kerouac. That's not going to like.

light up the airwaves, but I get to work. a lot. I have time to think. I have time. to dream. I'm engaged with so many other. artists that are fast compelling to me. Every day has like an exciting creative. wrinkle to it. I think some people there. there are people who are really good at. being artists and also maintaining this. sort of dance that you do with the. public and it wasn't my gift and I also.

just had to realize that everybody's. capacity is different and I thought that. what I had to prove was that I had the. that I could take it all that I was. tough enough to take it all. And now. that is not doesn't seem like an. important. character trait to me and I. feel that I was always [music]. sort of meant to be where I am now. >> Lila, I really enjoyed speaking with. you. Thank you very much. >> It was a really a pleasure, David. Thank.

you. >> I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro. >> And I'm David Marchese. >> And we're the hosts of The Interview, an. audio and video podcast from The New. York Times. >> Every week we interview fascinating and. influential people from all walks of. life. >> Subscribe to our YouTube channel so. you'll never miss an episode.