Why Avoiding Conflict Is Actually Hurting Your Relationships | Priya Parker on ‘The Interview’

I think it's a huge misunderstanding to. think that we have too much conflict. right now. We actually have too little. conflict. >> [music]. >> I'm David Marchese, and today I'm. interviewing conflict resolution. facilitator and author Priya Parker. For. many of us, conflict, be it at work or. at home or in society, feels like. something to avoid. It's combustible, irresolvable, or just uncomfortable. But. in her new book, The Art of Fighting, >> [music]. >> Parker argues that we should fight more.

and learn how to do it well. >> We have this this norm of almost toxic. politeness, and it's blocking us from. actually having the really important. conversations. [music]. >> Parker, who also wrote the bestselling. 2018 book The Art of Gathering, is. drawing on her work mediated conflict on. college [music] campuses, at Fortune 500. companies, in cultural institutions, and. within families. >> Part of working with families is. shifting [music] the mental model of. disagreement from being disrespectful to. actually being one of the highest forms.

of honor. >> So how and when should we fight? Here's. my conversation [music]. with Priya Parker. But first, a quick. message. If you're not a subscriber, we. have some news for you. >> [music]. >> You can now explore the Times for free. without paywalls during your first month. in the New York Times app. Just download. the app, and we hope you enjoy it. Okay, on to the interview. Uh Priya, thank you for for being here. I'm very excited to talk with you about. conflict. >> Thank you for having me. >> So your your previous book, The Art of. Gathering, which I think was published.

in 2018, yep, uh so it's been a little. while, but that was all about like. healthy and productive group activity. And of course the new book is about. conflict, and it's hard not to. wonder if that suggests something grim. about the trajectory of the world since. then. So so why did you feel compelled. to write the new book? >> I am deeply interested in human. connection. And The Art of Gathering is about human. connection, and the art of fighting is.

about human connection. And I decided to. write this book in part because as a. conflict resolution facilitator, I saw. that in so many of the organizations. that I work in, in so many of the. families I work with, in so many of the. friend groups that I am a part of or. see, they're often actually falling apart. because they're afraid to fight. And so. much of what I find is that. organizations and friend groups. basically when conflict arises oscillate. between either unhealthy peace, >> Yeah. >> conflict aversion, avoidance, people.

believe pretend everything's fine, and. unhealthy conflict, right? Which is. either. escalation or domination or abuse. And so I wrote The Art of Fighting to. basically say, "Look, this is a deeply. deeply important part of all group life, of all of our relationships, and we're. not taught how to do it well, and we're. actually not taught that it's actually. deeply functional. It's not immoral. It's not toxic. Conflict is actually the. way we figure out who we are and how we. negotiate to be part of common life.

together.". >> You used the term unhealthy peace. Um. I think it's possible. that that term could feel like an. oxymoron to some people. Like, "What. What could be unhealthy about peace?". Can you explain what you mean by that. term? >> You know, uh maybe I'll start with a. personal story. When my parents. separated, I'm half Indian, half white. American. Uh both of my parents are. actually very conflict averse. And when. my parents separated and then divorced, everyone was shocked because they never.

fought. And so I learned from a young age that. there's there's great loss in avoidance. And so part of, you know, and I'm. actually a third-generation. conflict-avoidant person. So like on my. Parker side, on my Iowa side, on my. Indian side, like when heat rises, we. just like stick our head in the sand and. hope it'll pass. And so much of. unhealthy peace is actually the idea. that if we just pretend this conflict is. not there, if we just kind of like, you. know, shove it under the rug and hope. it'll pass, everything will be fine. But.

actually, when we don't have meaningful. conversations, the the relationship can also end. I. mean, so often when, you know, you hear. it in the culture, it's like, "Not my. labor, not my burden, like I don't have. time, there's too much baggage over. here, like friends are supposed to just. all be fun." Actually, because we're so. conflict-averse, we exit before we're actually willing to. engage. And so, our communities and our. families are fracturing in part because. we're afraid of entering and we don't. often we're not taught the skills of how.

to actually have those fights. >> I I have some some questions about. that kind of conflict or conflict. avoidance, but bef- before I get to. those, I'm just curious, what is the the. most common workplace conflict that. you're asked to come in and and help. resolve? >> I love this question. >> Cuz you must get the same conflicts over. and over again, right? >> I mean, a lot of So, first of all, I'm a. conflict resolution facilitator, and so. by the time the phone call comes to me, >> It's pretty bad, right? >> Well, it's either pretty bad or someone. has realized, "Okay, the way we are.

handling this is blocking us from. progress.". >> Yeah. >> And so, one of the most common conflict problems. that people come with me for is. actually, "Our team is too polite.". >> [laughter]. >> I see you laughing and and knowing sigh. There's deep difference here, but we are. we have this this norm of almost toxic. politeness, and it's blocking us from. actually having the really important. conversations about what should go in. our product, or why do our customers. hate our product, or what should go on.

the front page of the newspaper. And so, can you come in and help us get better. at fighting with each other? So, one set. of one of the most common sets of. problems that companies come with me for. is actually to help them become more. conflict competent. >> Mhm. >> I think it's a huge misunderstanding to. think that we have too much conflict. right now. We actually have too little. conflict. >> Yeah, which is I think sounds crazy to. [laughter] people. >> It sounds crazy, but there is something. between war and peace, which is what I. call healthy heat. And healthy heat is.

what is actually at the center of all. meaningful relationships, all long-term. communities. So, part of what I do is I. go in and help teams get more. comfortable with heat. So, I'll give a. simple example. One of the things that. we do is we we have companies or teams, I do this with my own team, host a hot. takes party. >> [laughter]. >> Practicing basically pro-social. conflict. They're laughing, they're. arguing, they're finding they're allowed. to be disgusted with each other about.

stuff that doesn't actually matter. I. saw this done at a corporate retreat. It. was a tech company. They had to make. really difficult decisions at a very. significant crossroads in their company. >> Mhm. >> And um the vice president came out on. stage and he basically said, he told me. this later, their conflict aversion was preventing. them from actually having the fight they. needed to have. So, he gets up on stage. and he's like, I really hate to start in. a bad place, but we really need to have. some really important decisions today. And like the whole room tenses up. I was. in the room. And and he's like, so we're.

going to have some debates and we're. going to start we're going to start. strong. And then he puts up a slide and. it literally says, "Pineapple on pizza, yes or no?" And everyone's like, "What?". And he's like, "Go. In 5 minutes, go and. start arguing." And all of a sudden the. room is like a buzz. Like, "Pineapple on. pizza? Like, oh, that's disgusting. I'm. Italian. This is offensive." People And. then he And then the next sentence goes. on. He's like, "What is the perfect time. for lunch?" And people start arguing. about it. And in that room, over these. 17 minutes, they start normalizing.

fighting with each other. And low-stakes. arguing is actually preparation for. high-stakes arguing. So, the next day. they brought out the real topics. And. everyone is referring like, "Remember. yesterday with the pineapple on pizza?". So, part of what we do is we're starting. to normalize that you can actually fight. in a way that is prosocial, that's. connected, that's good for the group to. help expand people's comfort with being. able to argue about the real stuff also. >> Does that. sort of process also work for family.

conflict? >> I think it depends on the family. Um I. work with a number of intergenerational. families, often with family foundations. or family businesses. Part of what I see. in families is there's a mental model, often with the older generation, that. speaking up or disagreeing is. not just impolite, but is disrespectful. >> Mhm. >> And so, [clears throat] part of working. with families is shifting the mental. model of disagreement from being. disrespectful to actually being one of.

the highest forms of honor to be able to. argue about what matters to a family. At. my grandfather's funeral in Jessup, Iowa, when the when the minister came and gave. my grandfather's eulogy, uh Lyle Parker, he basically saved his. highest compliment for the end of the. eulogy and he said, "You know, in my 50. years in Ruth and Lyle's 50 years of. marriage, they never fought.". And my stepmother, a wise woman, leans. on the pew next to me and is like,

"That's not a good thing.". And part of what I realized in that. moment was in so many circles and so. many churches and so many families, we. believe that conflict is close to sin, right? It's immoral. And so, in. families, just literally shifting the. belief that all conflict is wrong to. actually saying the conversations we're. not having is preventing us from deeper. connection as a family can be a radical. shift. >> Yeah. I I want to maybe.

try and complicate that idea a little. bit. So, you you talk about it and you. write about conflict as sort of um to do. with healthy interrelationship within a. group where you know the idea is that. people are having the conflict with the. other members of the group because they. actually they want to be in a different. kind of better relationship with the. other members of the group. But I I I. can't help but wonder if that's a little. bit um. maybe just like a little bit pie in the. sky kind of thinking or slightly um.

>> naive. >> I don't know I wouldn't say not naive. but just maybe a little. certainly more optimistic optimistic. than I'm inclined to be because I think. well actually. the fight within a group might be about. one. part of the group just wanting to. dominate the other part of the group or. one part of the group. wanting to get rid of the other part of. the group. Like is it the case. that conflict is like necessarily. generative in a. >> Not always absolutely not. And basically. what you're talking about which is like.

sometimes it's just a power battle. Sometimes it's just a fight for. dominance. But the type of conflict I'm. interested in and the focus of this book. is when you get into what I call. existentialist territory which is when. the fight actually starts to touch on a. group's usness. Who are we and what are. we about? And one of the mistakes we. make as as as as people is we. overestimate loud fights. and we underestimate. fights that touch on our our our usness.

or our we-ness. And. and and so there are some fights that. are just about domination or that are. just about power battles. And and in. that case like. you probably don't need to grow warmth. You know you need you need to duke it. out. But if you find yourself in a. conflict that. is worthy to sort through that you think. is actually touching on what makes us us. and who are we. You're going to need. some skills to duke it out. Right now we. have very few conflict.

rituals in society. We basically. oscillate between pretending. everything's fine and suing each other, right? And so part or union negotiations. union negotiations are actually a. helpful conflict ritual, but it's for a. very specific purpose. And so you can. have a bruising union negotiation that's. super intense and maybe in all of the. papers you kind of come out bruised from. it, but at some level it's not. existential. It's usually about material. benefits and maybe it'll you know go. into existential territory, but it it's. loud but it's not existential. Versus.

a conversation I mean one of the one of. the examples I give in the book is a. 150-year-old swim club in San Francisco. where they swim in the open sea in the. San Francisco Bay and. they have an existential conflict with. the invention of the wet suit. because basically all of a sudden. there's those who think that oh great. now we have some protection to brave the.

elements. >> Right and the others think it's. antithetical to the spirit of the club. Right. And so most people think oh the union. battle is actually we should be paying. attention to all this heat over there. but in my line of work I know that it's. actually that wet suit divide that is. touching on the group's us-ness and is. much more threatening to the group over. time than a union battle. But what are. signs that people should look out for. whether it's. you know an interpersonal relationship. or or one's relationship with their job?

Signs that would tell them like actually. these conflicts mean this this group is. not for me anymore or this relationship. is not for me because not every conflict. is resolvable for an individual and then. also you know some conflicts could still. get resolved but. they might not jive with sort of what. your values are or what you think you. should be doing. I would sort sort back. the car up slightly which is not all. conflict should be faced. Part of. intelligence, part of sort of.

discernment is knowing when and how. should I face this and when or how is it. time to leave? And this is true also in. friend groups. I mean, I think part of. modern life is that we have choice. Like our ancestors didn't get to choose. >> Right. You were in the same village. >> Same God, avoiding the same food. Like. the only way of exiting was like to die, you know? And so part of modern life is. we endlessly can enter and exit. different friend groups, different. churches or synagogues or temples,

different relationships. And so part of. what happens in friend groups is we we. don't have vocabulary because in part. modern friendship is actually sort of a. a new phenomenon where you have to. decide and can decide. are these my people? Do I still want to. be part of this? >> But let me ask. another as that question and connect it. to another specific example, which I. think is is sort of a emblematic of of.

our contemporary culture, which you. know, there is this trend of uh. within families of children in. particular going no contact, right? Children who have decided that rather. than continue to have conflict or. tension or you know, whatever negative. emotions they're having, they're opting out. Um. and I think from the outside it can be. easy to say, well, that you know, that's. unhealthy or seems like a a drastic step. to take and maybe it is or maybe it. isn't. I'm sure it depends on the.

individual situation, but. like when you hear about that trend, like what what questions. do you think people. maybe should be asking themselves when. they make the decision to go no contact. with their family? >> I think of Karl Pillemer's work and his. study about estrangement. >> Yeah. >> And it's a totally brilliant book. It's. called Fault Lines. And one of the. things I think that that book did was. first of all, it it gave language to and.

normalized estrangement. And I think. part of what Karl Pillemer said was the. people who are able to come back from or. move forward from estrangement are. people who are willing to let go of a. unifying narrative. To let go of having a shared story of. what happened. And so that's one thing I. think of when you ask that. But the. second is. there are moments in life and I think. there are certain situations in which. cutting off or letting go is is is.

necessary. Sometimes just for safety. >> I feel like it's a a version of a of a. question I've asked a couple times and. maybe I'm just not articulating it well. well enough. But how do how do people. know whether or not. they should engage. in the conflict or not engaging in the. conflict is is just the easier thing to. do. Like there's somebody who's who's. thinking of going no contact with their. with their parents say like.

how do they figure out like is this. really what's best for me or am I just. doing the thing that actually feels. easier in the short term? >> I mean I think that asking others who. you trust but it's really hard sometimes. to sort of see one's own. one's own role in a situation. Um. I think one of the terms that I think. has been really helpful that's. arisen over the last decade is the term. gaslighting, right? Which is like you're. in a situation is somebody gaslighting. you or you know or.

like are you crazy? Are they crazy? And. so. I would have that person get a meter. check which is to actually ask somebody. in your life whether [snorts] or not. somebody with good judgment, someone. who's has the the intent for you. >> Yeah. Is this a thing? >> Yes. And honestly someone from a. different generation. >> Yeah. >> Um someone outside of your circle, someone who doesn't have a a dog in the. fight to give be a meter check for you. and to say where and how do you think I. should handle this? Am I crazy to be,

you know, are they gaslighting me or are. there other tools here? Um and to not be. in conversation. for that question. with other people who have also exited. >> And what is the the role of compromise. in conflict? Cuz I I know. you know, when I think back to. through my own career, there have. definitely been moments where, you know, rather than engage in in the conflict or. continue to engage in a conflict, I've.

said, you know, okay, we can make this. compromise even in situations where I. don't think the compromise was ever even. going to lead to a better outcome. I. just thought, you know, I don't want to. deal with that. >> you want to be in a relationship with. that person? >> Well, at the risk of losing my job, probably yes, [laughter] you know. >> Great. >> So. >> Great. >> But how how how can we manage situations. so that we can. reduce conflict, but also not feel like. we're just. ending up settling with compromises all. the time?

>> I mean, I think compromise is part of. life. And I I so much of. so much of human engagement is deciding. what your intent is and and what you. want that relationship to be or need to. be. I mean, in my own life, my father is a white man. from Waterloo, Iowa. He's conservative, he's Republican, he's a evangelical. Christian. He is deeply, deeply. important to me and a huge part of our.

relationship over the years is finding. out where which conversations do we are. not helpful for our relationship and. where and how do we have meaningful, rich conversation and interaction and. joy. despite our differences. And so, you. know, any meaningful relationship over time. has difference in it. Even siblings, right? Even within a family, even within. any marriage. And so, part of the. ability to. have compromise is to say, "You know.

what? I'm not going to win every battle, but I can live with this." Compromise is. a really important part of any type of. relationship or team. >> And yeah, I made sort of a you know, I. made said the thing about not wanting to. get fired. That was sort of a, you know, a flippant joke a little bit, but but. there's a truth in it, which is which is. that in conflicts there are um. power imbalances. And I think this is. something that in particular shows up in. work conflict all the time, where there. can be a group or or groups or could be.

uh you know, between one employee and. their manager, their their boss. And it. it's clear that. someone is in charge and someone. probably has the final say. So, what. limits. do power imbalances put on conflict. resolution? And and in particular, how. can how can the person with less power. try to manage that imbalance? >> Power exists in every relationship and. in organizations hierarchy exists. And a.

hierarchy is hierarchy is super helpful, right? This is how we make the system. >> Sometimes. >> [laughter]. >> This is how Sounds like we need to have. another conversation about your. situation. Now, and and and so, my most. challenging. situations are when a person with power. I doesn't recognize their power. And often when I work with leaders, when. I work with managers, one of the one of. the. sets of coaching that we do is actually. helping those leaders and managers.

really understand that they have. disproportionate power and it's not the. same relationship as if if they're. arguing with their brother. It's not the. same relationship as if they were. arguing with their wife or anyone else. That that they actually have. institutional power over the person and. it's a different it's a different. interaction because you can fire the. person. And so a lot of our work is. actually with the people with more power. to use their power well and to and to. whether it's saying things like, you. know, if you're going to fire somebody. say like this hurts me more than it. hurts you. Like. >> Yeah, no it doesn't. [laughter]. >> Right. Even if it hurts you it's like.

it's not the same. >> Yeah. >> And so it's not on the it's not on the. weight of the person with less power. It's it's their problem but it's not. their responsibility. And so. organizations get in a lot of trouble. when people with power don't think they. have power. >> In the context of sort of workplace. conflict resolution I I just was curious. if. you find that there are. sort of industries or or types of. businesses that seem less receptive to.

your work or also just in in sort of a. broader sense if you've see if you've. seen any sort of. cultural changes in the corporate world. in. in so far as like an appetite to engage. in conflict resolution because it feels. like a cold. world out there especially now. >> I think one of the biggest changes in. corporate culture in the last decade is. the intro in the is the introduction of. Slack. >> Oh, huh. >> And I had a my my mentor in conflict.

resolution was a guy named Hal Saunders. and he at the turn of the century of the. last century basically said that in. negotiation and diplomacy we used to. think of of negotiation or as as. conflict as a chess match. And he said basically conflict. resolution now in any type of. environment is more like a squash court. except with like 15 balls at the same. times and mirrors on all of the walls. What Slack did more than any other app. was it hyper it it turbo charged. conflict. It turbo charged who can.

create a group or community in any. workplace? It was deeply confusing to. leadership, and it allows anyone to say. anything without realizing the impact. that it has on a thousand other. eyeballs, 500 other eyeballs. And so I. think a a lot of the. a lot of the challenges, I would say the. two biggest challenges in corporations. over the last 10 years, and the two. biggest fights are where and what to do. about Slack and communication, and the. second is.

going back to work and where work should. happen. >> But let me ask you about Slack because. my experience with Slack is is it's a an. annoying thing that I feel some. obligation to be on, and it makes me. feel like my brain has to move in 10. different directions, and I think why. can't this just be an email? Or is this. Did you really need to ask me about this. now? Or. the just the expectation of its use I. find kind of. crazy making and not particularly. uh productive. But what answers do you. give people to.

what do we do about Slack? >> Slack basically. in most companies didn't begin as like a. deeply considered software enterprise. decision. It started because you could. literally download it on your app and. start creating a channel. And so like. any type of communication, I mean conf-. in any type of group your. communication channels. are disproportionately. uh the engines of what people think of. as where where they work. What it means.

to work here. As I watch Slack, I mean I. really look at it more like a. sociologist. Um our current. uh digital tools, Slack included, social. media included, are not designed for. healthy heat. They're not designed to. basically be able to have uh context or. nuance. And and in some cases, Slack can. be super helpful to help smaller. communities find one another in ways. that doesn't take a lot of. infrastructure. Um but Slack can also be. Amanda Ripley has uh wrote a book called. High Conflict. She has this great term.

called conflict entrepreneurs. Um, where. in where in any group and every group. and every family and every company, there's also people who are just in it. to like stir up. >> [laughter]. >> And so, Slack can be also really. conducive to that. I often see Slack as. almost like. like smoke. >> [snorts]. >> Like why why is this all arising? And. and part of what I help people do is. like look for the fire. >> Oh, it's a symptom of something. >> of something. And so, if people are. like, you know, saying all sorts of. stuff on Slack or starting the side.

channels, that's usually a symptom of a. malaise elsewhere. >> Yeah, and I think, you know, whenever people hear about um. conflict and group conflict now, uh. I shouldn't say what whatever, but often. like their minds understandably turn to. political conflict, right? Are you. confident or do you have a sense that. the ideas that you talk about as far as. conflict resolution. also work when extended to conflict. between larger political groups?

>> I think that we have examples in our. politics that are deeply unhealthy. conflicts. And I think we also have. examples that are starting to look at. more healthy conflict. There's a huge. conflict right now happening within the. DSA and the Democrats, right? The DSA is. sort of like the jilted lovers of the. Democrats. They want to They're They're. They're saying like, I wish you could. only see the world we think can exist. And so, part of that fighting is. actually tapping into what the conflict. resolution facilitator say to near calls.

relational longing. And I think in all. types of political, particularly in. political uh conflict, tapping into that. that that relational longing is a way to. actually be able to widen the tent. And. and but the the second thing is even. across political divides, when you bring. people into the the room or when they. have a shared community that often isn't. even about politics, it might be their. neighborhood association, it might be. their. kickball club, it might be their trivia.

night. Actually having a second identity. where they're able to where they're able. to, you know, come together around, expands their ability to also be in. community with each other across and. within those political differences. >> I guess though one of the the big. questions that that feels a little uh. undetermined at the moment is how much. actually do some of the groups that are. in conflict now want to be in in. relationship? >> I agree. And I think one of the deepest. dangers of our country is we've fallen.

out of love with each other. And. that relational longing, when you no. longer have relational longing, you just leave. You exit. And that's one. of the most dangerous I mean, I don't. work in places where people don't still. have some amount of desire or need for. each other, because then you you just. break up. >> Right. >> And so I think one of the when I work. with organizations, with communities, with churches, one of the things that I. tell leaders is like continue to find. and cultivate that relational longing,

that residual desire to still want to be. in community with each other. And I. think going back to our conversation. earlier around families, I think. families sometimes have it's the hardest. place to be. It's it's the it's can. sometimes be the scariest place to be, but families also a particularly across. political divides, which are many. families in this country, still have a. residual desire for one another. And so. when we fall out of love with one. another, that's a dangerous place to be. >> On the interview, we talked to our guest. twice. So a week later, [music] I spoke.

to Priya Parker again about how she. handles conflict at home. Hi Priya, how are you? >> Hi David, I'm great. How are you? >> Good. I have a real bone to pick with. you. >> Let's go for it. >> No, I don't. I just thought I'd. >> [laughter]. >> start with try and start with a pretend. conflict, but I have no no issue with. you. >> You got nothing? >> I got nothing. Um, but you know, to start, I was very. intrigued by the way you described. yourself as a conflict-averse person. Um,

so how how does your own conflict. aversion show up in your life? >> When I am in a tense situation with. somebody that I love, with my husband, with my children, in with my friends, my. palms get super sweaty, my heart starts. palpitating. Sometimes in a really good. fight, I'll feel slightly faint. >> [laughter]. >> And I have come to realize and recognize. that all fighting actually is physical.

Just not in the way we think. And the physicality of what actually. happens in our bodies, with the in. ourselves, actually deeply affects our. ability to fight or stay. And so my. conflict aversion is something that uh. continues. I'm still physically. conflict-averse. And I actually as a facilitator, but. also in my own life, have very simple. practices to just notice this is. happening, uh to breathe, to not exit. And so my.

conflict aversion. shows up. all the time. But I have learned how to. basically stay in the heat. >> And so you you have these uh tactics for. how to kind of physically manage the. feelings of of conflict aversion. Um, but what advice do you have for people. about how to. mentally and cognitively. deal with uh the conflict aversion? Cuz. it's one it's one thing to sort of not. flee, it's another thing to then um.

behave in a productive manner in the. conflict. >> It's to deeply. reframe conflict as. an investment in the person. And I mean, I do this with my family, with my even in my own household when my. husband and I start, you know, really. getting into it. or arguing about something. And if my. children happen to be in the room, I. will look at them and say, "It's okay that we're fighting.

We're arguing because we love each. other. This is an important. conversation." And I'm kind of saying it. as much to them as I am to myself. And. part and and part of that is because we. tend to think of conflict as. antagonistic, but conflict can actually. be incredibly prosocial. And so, very simply, it's like first is. checking in with oneself and saying, "Do. I care about this relationship?". And counterintuitively, if I do, let me get in there.

>> Can I ask when you're in a. uh fight or conflict with your husband, >> [laughter]. >> and is he ever like, "Stop doing the. techniques on me. I know what you're. doing.". >> [laughter]. >> Of course. Don't facilitate me. Of course. And and you know, part of. part of my husband is. very comfortable with conflict. I've. learned a lot from him, but a huge part. of our it can be very frustrating cuz I.

know what the tools are, but. but [laughter] we're not always using. them. You know, I'm going to fight with my. husband. I'm a wife. I can't be a. facilitator. But I do try to practice. some of these skills. And also. afterwards, when we've, you know, when. when we've kind of gotten through the. fight and we're they're joking about it. or debriefing, I think actually over time both of us. try to practice some of these some of. these skills. And you you can actually. get better at fighting. I have. He's. always been good at it. I've gotten. better. >> [laughter]. >> And. you know, you the way you just described.

your husband as someone who's good at. fighting, for me uh up a connection with a certain. personality type or even certain group. type, which is. groups or individuals who who are kind. of always. uh poised for conflict. And I want to. know your guidance for how best to. engage in a conflict with those people. because I find that my reaction often is. like, I'm just going to. you know, uh.

pass the buck or just avoid it it for. whatever reason or just like not engage. because the idea of of bringing. something up with someone who I know is. immediately going to have their fists up. and it's like I just would rather not. bother with this. But what how might we. smooth the way through our conflict with. people who are who are like ready to. fight? >> This dynamic exists everywhere. There's. And you're often married to the person, right? The person who wants to fight and. the person who doesn't. Uh. there's a great piece by Raina Cohen in. The Atlantic and she looks at couples.

who schedule their fights. And one of the things that they found. >> Schedule their fights, really? >> their fights. And one [snorts] of the. things that they do is they they. schedule fights. I have a weekly checkup. almost like a dentist's cleaning or a. monthly fight. And what this does is. when you actually have, you know, a time. to schedule a time for the fight, the. conflict-seeking person can can always. the conflict-averse person be like, "Save it for Tuesday.". >> [laughter]. >> And the conflict-seeking person who. feels like the their conflict-averse.

partner is like never willing to have a. fight knows, "Okay, fine. We have that. for Tuesday." And it might sound kind of. bizarre, but actually many like I. studied um traditional and indigenous. communities of how they dealt with. internal conflict, and almost all of. them had specific times and places to. regularly sort through internal. conflict. Part of what. we are lacking in modern life is is is. rituals to hold things that are hard. It.

allows us as as humans, as friends to. have a place where we know we can sort. of take this stuff. And in part because. we assume that conflict is. dysfunctional, we don't even know that. there are ways that we can actually. embed this into daily life. >> Can you share a conflict in your life. that you're working on right now? >> [laughter]. >> Oh my god, so many. When I feel like. when you're a parent, there are. conflicts all over the place. Um I mean, I think one conflict that I uh. that I like a a larger question that I.

really hold as a parent is I have an 8-. and 11-year-old currently is if and when. my children are with their peer set and. uh. you know, something happens between two. kids as is totally normal, when and how to pick up the phone and. call the other parent or when to just. sort of let it. wash out. Um. and I think that that's like a really I. think that's a really deep conflict. within and across parent communities of.

how much do you sort of let kids sort it. out and how much is it actually our job. to get in there and give them some. skills. I do this actually just with my. own children, um the practice of. normalizing apology if and when they do. something to, you know, hurt or annoy. one another. and [snorts] we uh and they apologize, I help them practice actually a full. apology. to actually articulate what it is that. they did and not, you know, say like,

you know, I'm sorry you were offended. >> [laughter]. >> And and practicing actually ownership. and accountability. And then actually on. the receiving side, I help them I you. know, instead of saying. um. it's fine, it's okay, right, if somebody apologized. to you, I I have them say or I I invite. them to say, they don't always listen, thank you. Cuz it actually they're actually then. it's actually quite vulnerable to admit. that someone affected you. And that.

simple practice in everyday interactions. with young people is actually the same. skills we do at the highest levels with. colleagues, with conflict in much higher. stakes contexts, but we are so averse to. apologizing, we're not taught how to, and we're so averse to even knowing how. to accept someone's apology. It's a huge problem with with just the. daily macerations of of group life. >> It really is an amazing thing, isn't it, the way that some people just will not. apologize or or will or will not admit.

wrongdoing. >> Entire families get incredibly and teams. get incredibly stuck when we don't have. the tools and skills, and I will call it. a tool and a skill to apologize. And in. part because when we are in relationship. or when in conversation with one. another, if you are unwilling or unable. to actually admit that you were ever. wrong, it creates this huge distortion. within the entire group. And so one of. the simplest ways to actually.

like get a group to get unstuck is. simply practicing people articulating. the elements that have hurt them or. annoyed them and the other person. practicing listening and accepting. >> Priya, I also wanted to ask you that in. our previous conversation, I had brought. up the idea of like how do how we might. reduce conflict in ways that don't also. feel like. we're just compromising. And and you. gave this example of um.

your. relationship with your dad and how you. have kind of I it sounded like different. political beliefs or different some. social beliefs that are different and. and you just sort of made the decision. that it was best for you to not talk. about that kind of stuff or or table it. And the thing that I didn't understand. is. like. how is how is that different than just. avoiding the conflict? Why is that a a. productive move for you and your dad to. make rather than the thing that it seems. like you're often counseling against,

which is burying the problem? >> There was a study done that looked at. uh. how important political identities were. uh to Americans. And over the last 10 years, particularly. with the election of Donald Trump, that. uh that identity has moved way up the. way up the ladder in terms of. importance. And there was a Christian. theologian called Joyce Ann Mercer, and. she writes a story and I could relate to. it about how she and her family have.

come across the political aisle, would. come together for Thanksgiving or family. reunions, and they used to be able to 20. years ago, 30 years each other, kind of. tease each other and engage in these. conversations, and. uh and it was kind of all in good fun. And over the last 4 years uh. uh. the vibe was off. >> [laughter]. >> And what actually be what what the. stakes in the country on both sides, on. all sides, began to be perceived one as. much higher. And the political identity. uh was also perceived as being.

getting closer and closer to disgust and. having different moral worlds. And part. of what she advocated for, as she said, when you have a relationship in which. you want to maintain ties for any. reason, and there there is a line that. around which if you enter you're not. going to be able to sort of come back. from. She encourages engaging in. strategic conflict avoidance. And as I. read that essay, it helped me understand. the many decades uh long conversation. that I've had with with my particularly. with my father, um as I think many young.

people or young adults or adults have. with parents of a different political. ilk. And at some level it's not actually. avoidance if you've had the if you've. had every conversation over and over and. over again and realize you're not not to. change this person, but you still want. to be in relationship with them. And so, one of the things that I found both in. my own relationship with my father, but. also as as I'm looking at the country is. to to grow the warmth.

between the people the people that you. love, and to have fun together, and to. remember why all of the different. reasons you love one another. It It's. almost like in physical therapy, if. there's like a if there's a wound or. there's a breakage, you don't go directly for where for the. for the wound. You work around the tear. and you to strengthen the muscle. And. similarly, in relationships, you work. around the tear to strengthen the muscle. in part to be able to have a. relationship with them. >> So, let's say someone has has.

fully immersed themselves in in the art. of gathering and the art of fighting and. feels like, "Okay, I've got a I got a. handle on on [laughter] productive. group gathering and and also how to deal. with conflict within groups." Like, what's the next thing that person should. be working on? >> That's a great question. >> [sighs]. [snorts]. >> I mean, I am interested in all of the.

different tools of how a group or a. community becomes. thriving in a place people want to be a. part of. I think I'm I'm very interested in. gifts, the role of gifts in society and in. between communities. I think we have a. flat understanding of gifts and I think. gifts are incredibly important and. interesting in terms of. helping a group understand what it is in. terms of power, in terms of.

love. I think there's a lot of I think. there's a lot more understanding we. could have about the role of gifts in. groups and communities. >> And and somewhere out there, I think a. lot of book editors ears have just. perked. >> [laughter]. >> perked up. The art of gift giving, holiday season 2028. But thank you thank. you so much for taking all the time to. speak with me. I really enjoyed it and. thought it was really interesting. [music] So so thank you. >> you so much for for having me and I hope. you're a little less conflict averse. [music] next time. >> [laughter].

>> I'm Lulu [music] Garcia Navarro. >> And I'm David Marchese. >> And we're the hosts of the interview, [music] an audio and video podcast from. The New York Times. >> Every week we interview fascinating and. influential people from all walks of. [music] life. >> Subscribe to our YouTube channel so. you'll never miss an episode.