What Does Tucker Carlson Really Believe? I Went to Maine to Find Out. | The Interview

You spend a day with Trump and sort of. like you're in this kind of dreamland. It's like smoking hash [clears throat]. or something. It's interesting. Very. interesting. [music]. I'm Lulu Garcia Navaro and I'm in Maine. to interview Tucker Carlson. For many. years, Carlson was one of President. [music] Trump's most vocal supporters. >> I mean, I've always agreed with Trump's. policies, always. And here I am with a. fullthroated, utterly sincere endorsement of Donald. Trump.

>> But recently, Carlson has publicly. broken [music] with Trump. He's not only. come out against Trump's decision to go. to war with Iran. >> This is the single most foolish thing. [music] any American president has ever. done. >> He now says he regrets supporting the. president. [music]. >> You know, we'll be tormented by it for a. long time. I will be. >> And has become a vocal and influential. critic of the administration. This whole. thing is like dooming anyone connected. to it for the foreseeable future, including the entire Republican party.

>> This puts Carlson at the center of a. major battle on the right over Israel, [music]. over foreign interventions, and over the. postTrump world itself. [music]. Here's my interview with Tucker Carlson. >> Tucker Carlson, >> thanks for having me. >> Very excited for you to be here. Um, in. Maine, we should say. Um, any any excuse. to come to Maine is always a good. reason. >> Most people don't come to this part of. Maine, so I'm I'm grateful that you. [laughter] did. >> Uh, it's a all parts of Maine are good. parts. Um, I wanted to sit down with you.

for a number of reasons. You've been at. the center of conservative media. obviously for a very long time. By. extension, it's politics. And I want to. get your perspective on this moment, on. your evolution, your worldview. you recently made quite a dramatic uh. break with President Trump over the war. in Iran and so I'd love to hear about. that. I want to start though in the leadup to. the conflict. You said that you spoke to the president.

several times uh about the plan to. attack Iran before it actually happened. on February 28th. I'd love to hear a little bit about. that. Was it just you and the president. in those meetings? Can you just give me. a sense of what was going on there? Um, well, I've [clears throat] been speaking. to him about Iran for 10 years, >> right? >> Uh, literally since 2016, maybe 15, because there was enormous pressure on. him, as there has been on many. presidents, to regime change Iran. And.

we know, uh, based on our experience. with a much smaller country, Iraq, that. that, you know, that's a tall order and. it doesn't necessarily lead to a place. you want to go and it's not good for the. United States. So anyway, and Trump knew. that and that was one of the main. reasons, the main reason actually, um, that I supported him during, you know, my time at Fox News and campaigned for. him. And so it was, it was really. central to my views of Trump's candidacy. and presidency. And so when it became.

clear in June that we were starting down. this road toward uh, a regime change war. with Iran, I I was just, well, I was. baffled. I was very upset. Not because I. have allegiance to Iran, but because I. thought it would be terrible for the. United States, as it has been, [snorts]. uh, worse even than I imagined. Um, but. I could see exactly where this was. going. And he was under enormous. pressure to do this once again, as as. all presidents in my lifetime have been. So, uh, we talked a lot in June. He.

embarked on this effort to take out. Iran's nuclear program, which was really. just the opening salvo in a regime. change effort. He knew that. I told him. that. Charlie Kirk told him that we did. it. We got out and then it became clear. this winter in January that we were. really we were moving toward this thing. that we're in now and I was just. absolutely panicked about it. >> Did he explain to you why he wanted to. take the country into war? I mean I I'm. just trying to understand the dynamics. of that conversation. Was what was he. >> Well, there are multiple conversations.

I I flew to Washington three times in. the month before, 5 weeks, 6 weeks. before um and met with him in the Oval. Office alone and you know people filing. and out with the White House chief of. staff, the secretary of state, uh etc. had lunch with him on one of those. occasions and then I spoke to him by. phone many times on this topic and he. would begin almost every conversation. with do you want Iran to have a nuclear. weapon? To which I said, well, I'm sort. of opposed to nuclear weapons. I don't. want nuclear weapons. I don't want.

Israel to have a nuclear weapon. I don't. want anyone to have a nuclear weapon. It. doesn't seem like a good thing. But that's not the question. The. question is, what do you do about it? And that was kind of the end of the. rationale for doing this. He never. seemed enthusiastic about it ever. And I. would say, well, you know, here are the. potential effects of this. Obviously, the geography of Iran being the most. important fact of Iran. Iran is not a. military power. It's an economic power. was obvious because it controls the. greatest span of coastline along the.

Persian Gulf which is the source of a. fifth of the world's energy etc. All. well known now and well known to him. then and he I think perfectly understood. the consequences. Um but. >> why was he taking your calls then? Because if he knew your position. um and he understood the perils I mean. was he trying to convince you to back. the war? >> No. um he made no effort to convince me at. all other than to say it's going to be. all right. Everything's going to be. okay. And I I just didn't I didn't feel.

that way. Um none of this, I should say, was about Trump or my relationship with. Trump or my feelings about Trump or his. hair color or anything like that. I just. didn't want the United States to go to. war with Iran. M and my strong feeling. by the end of those conversations which. was the last one was probably a week. before it began the war began um was. that he felt he had no choice and that. he was resigned to it. He was unhappy. about it. He didn't seem enthusiastic at. all. There was no effort to say you know. once we do this the United States will.

be at peace. We'll be safe. We'll be. more prosperous. There was none of that. Zero. Hm. I mean, you speak to many. people in the administration and I I'm. just trying to understand the fault. lines over this. I mean, who was for the. war? Who was against it while all this. was being discussed? >> I mean, I'm I'm guessing to a certain. extent. I do talk to a lot of people. there still. Um, but I don't work there, so I don't, you know, it's hard to to. really know. Um, you know, there are.

people with a long record of making. bellose noises about Iran. they still. work there. So, um, specifically the. secretary of state/national security. adviser has, you know, said for many, many years, Iran is the greatest threat. we face, which is a ludicrous statement, but, um, has Marco Rubio. >> that that'd be correct. >> But that said, I got I didn't hear a. single time from anyone, including from. the Secretary of State himself, who I. spoke to about this, any enthusiasm for. doing this. My strong impression, and I.

could be wrong cuz I don't work there, uh, is that no one in the building was. pushing for this, at least overtly, that. all the pressure was coming from. outside, constant calls from donors and. people with influence over the. president, well-known Rupert Murdoch, Mary Madson, uh, etc., etc., etc., and then a small. constellation of I guess they'd be. called influencers. uh beginning with Mark Leven but there. were others Sean Hannity you know. pushing the president to do this and.

telling him that you will be a figure. out of history you will save and redeem. Israel or something um I think that was. the case they were making and I didn't. hear of anybody making the case that. this would be good for the United States. I don't think that was ever a. conversation. >> I mean there's been a lot of speculation. about the president's mindset during. this period. >> Yes. >> Um and and part of it is of course about. what happened after Venezuela and the. successful in their view operation there.

uh removing Maduro from office and that. he felt sort of emboldened by that, you. know, the success of that operation and. that he felt that this was going to be. similar that he underestimated the. Iranians and what they might do in in. response to an attack. Yeah, I don't. believe that. Um I think the Venezuela. uh operation allowed him to retreat into. a kind of fantasy in which he told. himself this is going to be easy. But I. don't think he believed that. Um and I.

should say having spoken to him a lot uh. in this calendar year I detected no. evidence at all of dementia, mental. decline. You hear people say, "Well, he's gone, you know, soft." I that was. not my impression at all. Trump is not. wellinformed on a lot of topics for. sure. is proudly ignorant on a lot of. topics, but he has kind of remarkable. powers of insight into people and power. dynamics. Like you don't get to be. president by accident. The guy's smart.

in the ways that matter politically. And. my strong read was that he was doing. this against his will. you know, fa famously, uh, the head of. the counterterrorism center, one of the. top intel officials in the country, Joe. Kent, resigned shortly after the war. began and said exactly the same thing. I. think this decision is connected to a. series of seemingly disconnected events, all of which revolve around violence, and we need to find out more about how. this happened. And he was, of course, dismissed and threatened with an FBI.

investigation and and no one kind of. followed up on that. And again, I don't. know the answer, but this was not a. normal decision-making process. And my. strong impression was that Trump was. more a hostage than than a than a. sovereign decision maker in this. >> Well, so tell me what you're getting at. when you say the president of the United. States, the most powerful country in the. world, had no choice. >> I don't know what I'm getting at. I'm. just telling you what I observed. He. [clears throat] seemed I and that's kind. of the question. And I'm what I'm really. fascinated by is the lack of curiosity.

on display into how exactly this. happened. What are the mechanisms by. which a guy who's supposedly sovereign. in charge granted this authority by. voters, tens of millions of them, can't. make a decision in the country's. interest or even in his own interest. He. knew, and I know he knew because I. talked to him about it directly, that. the consequences, potential consequences. were profound and profoundly bad. the. end of his presidency to start which I. think it has proven to be he knew that.

and he wasn't. this is my read and I could be. completely wrong I don't know what's in. his head and I I don't want to overstate. my knowledge at all but this is my. strong perception on the basis of many. conversations on this topic he felt he. had no choice and he said to me. everything's going to be okay. >> because I was getting overrought don't. do this the people pushing you to do. this hate you they are your enemies this. will destroy you. This will gravely harm. our country. We've got kids. I'm hoping. for grandkids. Let's not go there. And.

he said, "It's going to be all right.". And I said, he said, "Do you know how I. know that?" And I said, "No." He said, "Because it always is.". >> And I I do think there's a kind of, you. know, Teddy Rooseveltian optimism there, but that's not really what it was. And. this is my read. That was more a kind of. justification. from a man who feels he has no choice. And that is that is my strong view and. not just my strong view the view of. others who were around him and involved. in this deliberation to the extent it.

was a deliberation which is not much. >> Who are the other people around him who. had that view? >> You know I can't speak for the views of. others but I will just say once again. that I never saw nor did I hear about. anybody who works for the Trump. administration. anybody who was. enthusiastically pushing this war on. Trump going and being like, you know. what, you want to be a truly great, you. want to make this country great again, we need a regime change effort in Iran. and instead, you know, there were a lot. of cowardly people as there always are.

And Trump engenders cowardice in the. people around him through intimidation. And there is a kind of quality that he. has that's spellbinding and I think it. probably literally is a spell. Uh, and. the effect is to weaken people around. him and make them more compliant and. more confused. And I I've experienced. this myself. You spend a day with Trump. and sort of like you're in this kind of. dreamland. It's like smoking hash. [clears throat] or something. It's. interesting. Very interesting. And there. may be a supernatural component to it. I'm not a theologian, but I it's real. And anyone who's been around him can.

tell you it's real. But whatever the. cause, no one around him was weighing in. strongly, as far as I know, on either. side, for or against. But people from. the outside were strongly weighing and. calling him constantly. >> I'm going to give an alternative um view. on what may have happened um which is. >> and you may be right by the way cuz I I. don't want to overstate. >> Sure. I just want to just due diligence. We've seen the president in his second. term be much more interested in foreign.

policy as many presidents are. um much. more open to um taking action uh not. only in Venezuela, talking about Cuba, wanting the Nobel Peace Prize, um you. know, weighing into situations in which. he um wasn't terribly interested in uh. in his first term. >> for sure. >> And so. >> that's real. >> Could [clears throat] that not be part. of this? >> It's a huge part of it. And there's no. question about that. And all presidents.

decide at some point that they're not. interested in running the United States. because it's hard. And how do you fix. Baltimore and Gary, Indiana? You what do. you do about homelessness in Los. Angeles? Like these are hard questions. We can't even make Head Start work. despite, you know, many billions and a. lot of sort of well-meaning people. working spending their lives on it can't. can't make it work. So these are hard. problems and I think it's universal. It's universal experience among American. presidents, but also among US senators. to decide like I'd rather run the world.

because the details are opaque. I don't. speak these languages. You know, I can. seem uh well, first of all, it's a. display of male power. Send the bombs. in. We'll kill the bad people. But. moreover, you get to feel like I did. something and that's important and I get. it. And this is again, as you wisely. note, a process that all presidents tend. to go through in and so Venezuela, Cuba, I object to both of those efforts very. strongly, but neither one in my view. risks the future of the United States in.

the way that the Iran war now does. And. so it's a big deal. But because it is, by the way, a contiguous neighbor of. Iraq. and because Trump spent years talking. about what a terrible idea the Iraq. invasion was. In fact, defined his. candidacy in 2016 on that point. It's hard for me to believe that he just. sort of organically reached this place. at the end of February. He's like, "Oh, I think it's a good idea." He did not. think it was a good idea. shutting down.

a fifth of the world's oil and gas. Of all people, Trump knows that's bad. >> You said um he's a hostage just now. Uh. you told the BBC he's a slave to foreign. interests, >> correct? >> Um so I just want to ask you to be sort. of explicit. I mean Trump is being held. hostage by whom? [snorts]. >> By Benjamin Netanyahu and by his many. advocates in the United States. And we. know that not simply because Trump. started the war on February 28th, but.

because he couldn't get out of it. He. declares, "We're having a ceasefire.". This was 3 weeks in, four weeks in. He. says, "We're having a ceasefire and. we're having these talks and they're. going great and we're, you know, we're. going to open the straight.". And Iran says, "Yeah, one of our. conditions is Israel's got to pull back. from southern Lebanon. You can't use the. Iran war as a pretext for stealing more. land. from a sovereign country that's not your. country." like no and which and it's not. just Iran that who felt that way. I.

think the rest of the world's like what. are you doing? I thought we were you. know fighting the great existential. threat Iran and now you're taking the. opportunity to take Lebanon short of. Latani River and bombing downtown. Beirut. Like what is this? Anyway, this. was all very wellnown and within hours. of announcing this, Trump announcing. this, Israel publicly in a way that was. designed to get the attention of. everyone, including the Iranians, starts. killing civilians in Lebanon. Now, what. was the point of that? Not to secure the.

Israeli homeland. The point of that was. to end any talk of a negotiated. settlement, to keep this going until. Iran was destroyed and chaotic, which is. the Israeli goal. I'm not attacking. Israel by saying that. Their goals are. different from ours. They're a different. country. >> Yeah. They would argue, of course, that. what they are doing is neutralizing the. threat um that has been persistent in. Lebanon. >> Oh, okay. But I mean,

you know, they invaded Lebanon in 1982. Okay, so that was 44 years ago. They've. had a lot of experience in Lebanon. Um, a lot they've had a lot of time to fix. Lebanon. They killed Nallala. They blew. up Hezbollah with explosive pagers. Like. they've done a lot since uh October 7th. in Lebanon. They chose that moment to. derail. the negotiations. And they've done this. repeatedly. And so my perspective as an. American is look, we're the United. States. We're a country of 350 million.

people. You are wholly dependent on us. You're a country of 9 million people. with no natural resources. I'm not. against you, but like we're not. co-equals here. But the point I'm making. is Trump could not restrain Netanyahu. Netanyahu is the one person Trump could. not say, "Hey, settle down or we'll just. defund you and your country will. collapse in about 10 minutes." Which is. true. you, Israel can't defend itself. without the United States, despite. whatever propaganda you may have heard. So again, it's not an attack on Israel. It's an attack on American leadership.

for not constraining its partner in a. way that helps the United States. Trump. said, "I want a negotiated settlement.". Israel stopped the settlement. Trump. refused to even criticize Netanyahu in. public. Are you joking? That's slavery. That is total control of one man by. another. And it's, you know, that's. between Trump and BB and God as far as. I'm concerned. But as an American, that's our president, our elected. president whose job is to protect our. country and our interest and our economy.

and he is looking out for Israel first. That's outrageous. I don't And no amount. of like, oh, you're an anti-semite, which I'm not, and I'm never going to. be, is going to stop me from noting that. that's outrageous. It is outrageous. Before we just move on, I am curious. about this one point which is. obviously Israel. has tried to exert its influence on a. number of presidents. Many presidents. have been asked to decapitate Iran um to.

to do a joint military operation in the. Middle East, which this is the first. time really um that this has happened. where the United States and Israel are. doing a joint military operation against. a Muslim country. And I'm just wondering. why you think other presidents. didn't have. that influence because they obviously. were subjected to the same pressures, the same donors, the same the same BB. Netanyahu has been there since the '90s. I mean, what what do you think has.

materially changed that made Trump more. susceptible to that influence? >> I mean, that's kind of the question um. that I would like answered and I don't. know the answer as noted. Um but you. know one argument could be well Trump is. just uniquely weak. Okay but that was. not my per I think Trump obviously has. weak obviously has weaknesses and a lot. of his posturing is compensatory. Of. course I'm not interested in. psychoanalyzing Trump but that's just. that's just clear. But what was it about.

this moment that allowed a foreign. leader to have this level of influence. over an American leader? And I don't. know the answer but again I think it's. worth finding out. I would also note. that, this is not a defense of Trump, hardly. This is the single most foolish. thing any American president has ever. done. In my opinion, I say that with. sadness, but many American presidents have have. put Israel's interest before our own. I. would say the Iraq war was a very. obvious example of that. I mean, Cheni's. office was completely controlled, and I.

I knew almost all of them by people who. were putting Israel's interests above. America's interests. So I I think the. Iraq war was to a great extent a product. of that and that and I believe that. Trump felt exactly the same way because. I talked to him about it a lot. So like. what what changed about Trump? What. changed after 10 years more than 10. years of telling us our leadership is. weak. They act against our interests. They're stupid. They're foolish. They're. bought off by foreign powers and by.

domestic donors. I mean that was Trump's. case. That was his whole pitch. that's. why he got elected. to switch on something this big in a in. the space of a few months. I mean that. bears some examination. That's all I'm. saying. I want to note in 2020 when President. Trump killed Iranian uh General. Kasamsulmani, you went on your Fox show. and said, and I'm going to quote here, there are a lot of awful [gasps] bad. people in the world. You can't kill them. all. It's not our job. and you asked why.

are we jumping into another quagmire. from which there is no obvious exit. Um. but it wasn't until President. >> I was I was not not heralded for saying. that. I don't think I've ever been more. criticized. I just really quickly note. I'm opposed not simply to foreign. interventions as you said. I mean most. of them anyway those not undertaken in. self-defense. I'm against the whole. frame. I'm against the idea that. Hezbollah and Hamas are at the center of. our domestic conversation. Like they're. the big problems we face. They're not.

like they're not a bigger problem than. like the behavior of City Bank. I'm. sorry. Credit card debt is a much bigger. problem than Hezbollah will ever be. So. stop with this. Stop with the. brainwashing. This is bonkers. I live. here. I'm almost 57. I've lived here a. long time. Hamas and Hezbollah, while. they're not getting my endorsement, are. not relevant to the experience of most. Americans. So like once you start. thinking like that, you betrayed your. country. So, it wasn't until President. Trump threatened Iran's civilian. infrastructure uh with a profane truth. social post this past Easter Sunday um.

that you actually started quite. explicitly speaking out against him. >> Yeah. You can't attack Jesus. How's. that? >> Well, in a monologue on your show, you. said, "How dare you speak that way on. Easter morning to the country?" [sighs]. Tell me what you were responding to. right then because it really is I think. a seinal moment for you in terms of. publicly breaking with the president. >> So uh I will say what I don't do. monologues those that's adlib. So that's. just I didn't write it. I don't have.

notes. I just like that's how I feel. So. it's probably not as coherent as it. should be. Uh, but that was really just. an emotional reaction to the experience. of waking up on Easter Sunday, the. holiest day on the Christian calendar in. a day of joy and hope, literally the. resurrection of Jesus, and seeing Donald. Trump using profanity, threatening to. murder civilians. I mean, that's a. crime. That's a moral crime. So, uh, to. brag about that and then to mock Islam,

I don't think you should mock people's. faith. I don't care if it's Judaism or. Christianity or Islam, but it's. especially gling as a Christian who I. voted for Trump in 2024 and one of the. main and I never vote typically, but I. voted for him this last election and. campaign for him in a bunch of cities. with him because I felt that there was. clear persecution of Christians in this. country, people of faith, and it was it.

was demonstrable. Um, and I felt that. Trump, and I based this on his explicit. promises, would be a protector of I. didn't never thought Trump was a. Christian for a moment, but I thought. that Trump, I took him at his word, would be a defender of faith, people of. faith who need to be defended, and this. country exists to defend them. It's in. our charter. So, um, anyway, I was just. completely outraged by that. >> Since that moment, you've gone even. further. You recently said on your show. that you'll be tormented for a long time.

by the fact that you played a role in. getting Donald Trump elected and you. said I'm sorry for misleading people. That's gotten a lot of attention as I'm. sure you know. Um. >> I don't know because I don't Google. myself ever, >> but. >> um I I would like to understand exactly. what you mean. Um can you explain? >> I'll tell you what I mean. I truly. believe that the baseline requirement, the ticket of admission to the. conversation is admitting when you are. wrong. And I spent 10 years defending.

Trump on Fox News. I'd probably do it. again because on the issues I agree with. him. I never said a sing I never. defended a single thing I didn't. believe. But at this point, the consequences of. this decision are so bad for the United. States and for my my family and your. family that like you have to say, you. just have to say it out loud. Like I'm a. small reason. I don't think I'm I don't. think I moved a lot of votes, but I.

tried to. I told people this guy will. keep us out of the next Iraq. This. specifically will keep us out of a. regime change war with Iran. And here we. are in the middle of a regime change war. in Iran where hundreds of Americans have. been wounded. Some number have been. killed. They won't tell us. And that's. just the opposite of what I said would. happen. So I'm sorry. [snorts]. So I hear you say that, but I am. compelled to question it a little bit.

because. are you simply just going public about. something that you felt privately for. some time? Because in 2021 through the. Dominion lawsuit against Fox News, some. of your texts went public, right? >> And I'm just quoting from a couple of. them. You know, you said there really. isn't an upside to Trump. You said, "I. hate him passionately." I mean, clearly. you had some feelings of reservation. about the president. >> without question. >> before this time. >> There's no doubt. >> So, I'm just trying to understand the. >> you know, I have a lot of thoughts and.

theories about things which, you know, may or may not be rooted in reality. Um, so I hesitate even to spring any of my. theories on you because like they're. [clears throat] probably insane. But one. thing that has bothered me for many. years is the fact that a lot of people. in Trump's immediate orbit have been. hurt. and really hurt, you know, gone to. prison, become unemployable, publicly. shamed, gotten cancer. And I just am a.

believer in like big picture assessments. of things. And you know, so you're. trying to think like is Trump good or. bad? Like he's saying things I really. agree with. But then people around him are getting. hurt. Is the country actually getting. better? I don't know. It's hard to know. because to some extent you're like your. vision is obscured by the intensity of. some of these debates. Mine was has been. is easily obscured by that intensity. But did I have reservations about Trump? Of course.

And you know to some extent I sublimated. them or rationalized them away or. focused on areas where I agreed with. him. All my fault. Um but I told myself. and I to some extent still believe like. it's the big decisions that matter. And. I knew because I know the Democratic. leadership really well that they're. completely under the control of the same. forces and that we would get a regime. change war inevitably in Iran if they. were elected. And so I told myself Trump.

is the way to avoid the really bad. thing. >> Come back to um this moment for you. Um. which is there's the political case. against Trump um that you make. >> Um but I do want to ask you about the. moral case that you've been making as. well. [snorts]. Um and that's a word that you've used. You know, in that monologue responding. to Trump's Easter, you said that Trump's. comments were evil. And I just want to. understand that a little bit better. Do. you think only his comments are evil or.

does the evil extend to Trump himself? Is he evil? >> I just want to be really clear that. there's a lot of evil in me and in every. person. So I just don't want to and I've. certainly experienced it in myself and. I've seen it in many in all people. You. know, we're all capable of of evil. So, I I just I want to pull back on the. judgment and be very precise about what. I was saying, which is you cannot mock. other people's gods and put yourself in.

their place. Period. That is a deal. killer for me. That's worse than the war. with Iran in my opinion. >> Yeah. But I ask because you know, you've. been talking on your show about whether. Trump is the Antichrist. >> I have not said that. >> On your show, the day after Easter, you. noted he did not put his hand on the. Bible during his swearing in ceremony as. president. you said, and I'm quoting, maybe he didn't put his hand on the. Bible because he affirmatively rejects. what's inside that book. And then on a. recent show, you went further saying, here's a leader who's mocking the gods. of his ancestors, mocking the God of.

gods and exalting himself above them. Could this be the Antichrist? >> I actually did not say, could this be. the Antichrist? >> Here's a leader who's mocking the gods. of his ancestors, mocking the God of gods, and exalting. himself above them. Could this be the. Antichrist? Well, who knows? Um, I don't. know where that comes from, but I know. that those words never left my lips. because I'm not sure I fully understand. what the Antichrist is. If there's just.

one, I I actually tried to understand. it. Um, I may have said some are asking. that. I'm not weighing in on that. because I don't understand it. Just to. be totally. >> No, in Revelations obviously the. Antichrist is named in different. different. >> Yeah. not just revelation but throughout. the New Testament there are references. and in the prophets as well. So but. um no I'm not speculating about that. Um, I know that people are speculating. about that, but I would say it's enough. to acknowledge that Trump, like many.

leaders through history, is putting. himself above God. To send, but even on. a more terrestrial level, like to send. out a picture of yourself as Jesus has. got to be a red line for Christians. How. could it not be? It it has to be. And I. wish that Christians would speak up when. he attacks Allah when he mocks the faith. of Muslims. >> So to be clear though, you that was not. what you were suggesting that they. >> if I thought Trump was the Antichrist, I. would just say so. If I understood what.

the Antichrist is, I would say so. And I. don't really I mean I guess literally. it's. >> because you've been discussing it. repeatedly on your show. So I'm just. trying to understand why. What I've what. I've tried to. >> What do you want your audience to sort. of. >> I want my audience to see what's. happening now in terms beyond just. material. [snorts]. Obviously the commodity flow through the. straight of horm is you know essential. to the global economy. Got it. But I.

also think there is a world beyond our. senses. Every culture and civilization. has understood that from the beginning. of time. And we're in this weird. anomalous moment where we've been. trained not to think that, but it's. real. And this is a realization that's. dawning on me. I mean, I I didn't I. wasn't thinking like this at all until. several years ago. So, I don't want to. pretend that I'm a shaman or anything. like that. I just want to make the point. repeatedly again and again and again. that there are unseen forces that act.

There is a spiritual realm and we are. subject to those forces for good and. bad. And I don't think that any person. can deny that. >> I I just want to make the point that you. did say, "Could this be the Antichrist?". And then you said, "Well, who knows?". You did use those words. So, >> man, then my apologies to you if if. there's video of me saying that. I I. guess what I'm expressing to you is it. doesn't. reflect exactly how I feel. That. suggests a precision that I haven't.

arrived at. Trump is the Antichrist. You'd have to def I mean this is we're. sort of quibbling here but you'd have to. define antichrist and I know that I. can't define antichrist and it's not. clearly defined in the New Testament or. Old Testament. So. >> you're open to the possibility. >> I think what we're seeing is evil. Like. are you allowed to kill people who've. committed no crime? No. Super simple. You're not allowed to do that. Under no. moral standard is that allowable. All of. a sudden it's allowable. It's allowable. in Gaza. And our leaders are like,

"Yeah, it's totally fine.". >> [snorts]. >> It's not fine, but certainly it's. repugnant to the Christian understanding. of the world and the human soul. Every. person has a soul. That's the Christian. view. And not just the Christian view, it's the Islamic view, too. So that is my view. >> Your Easter episode was titled in part a. warning to Christians everywhere. >> Yeah. >> And and sort of my interpretation was. that you were warning other Christians. sort of not to follow a false prophet. >> Yes, that's exactly what I'm warning. Um, and that false prophet being.

President Trump in this case. >> and Netanyahu. There are a lot of. evangelical Christians who are convinced. that God wants you to support Netanyahu, which I find incomprehensible. >> You know, Christian evangelicals in this. country have been a hugely important. part of President Trump's coalition. Many support Israel because they believe. the creation of the state of Israel. fulfills biblical prophecy. They're. called Christian Zionists. I will note, you have said you dislike Christian. Zionists more than anybody. You've said. they have a brain virus. You have.

apologized for those [clears throat]. comments repeatedly. >> Repeatedly. >> Um, but would you like to see those. Christians stop supporting the state of. Israel in the way that they do? >> Of course, immediately. on many different grounds. But it's. really simple. Christians can never. support the murder of innocents. Period. That's just that that's just a bright. red line. Find the place where Jesus is. like, "These people are annoying. Kill. them all." It's not there. So, where are. you getting this? Now, I'm once again. hardly a theologian,

but I just don't know. And I've asked. many Christian Zionist leaders who will. speak to me. Now, it's just like they. won't talk to me. But I I certainly. asked Ted Cruz this. I asked Mugaby this. I tried to ask. Franklin Graham. But I sincerely want to. know where this is coming from. It can't. all be from the book of Esther. >> Well, I mean, you did have exactly this. contentious interview with um Ambassador. Huckabe. He's the ambassador to Israel. where you talked to him about Christian. Zionism for quite some time. Um, and in.

that interview, you know, it's very. interesting. I'm a former um, Israel. Palestine uh, correspondent. You were. pressing him on if the modern state of. Israel as a homeland for the Jewish. people today has legal or biblical. legitimacy. you were sort of questioning. him on this idea and you went round and. round on this for quite some time and I. was just wondering what you were trying. to get at there. >> I was trying to get at an answer which I. couldn't get and instead was accused of. hate for trying to evoke a answer to a.

very simple question and the question. was on what basis are you making this. claim? People whose ancestors didn't. live here now occupy the land. That's. very common in history by the way. I'm. not even objecting to it. What I'm. objecting to is the claim that it's. God's will and that Israel because of. this has the unique right to exist. Okay. Where does that right come from? Well, the right comes from the Bible. Okay. Well, I'm not a Bible scholar, but.

I certainly read it a lot. And I said to. him, "Where are the borders?" Because my. read of Genesis is a big hunk of land. That's the Middle East. does Israel have. a right because you're referring to this. text as the basis of the right to have. that land and he said fine with me. So. like on many levels theological and. diplomatic kind of a big thing to say. the White House was annoyed that he said. it out loud. I was grateful that he did. because it's good to know what the terms. are. And the second question I asked.

which is okay if Israel has a right. derived from this scene in Genesis then. to whom does it apply? who who are. Abraham's heirs? And he said, "Well, the Jews." And I. said, "Okay." And by the way, just to be. clear, these are not conversations that. I sought. I'm not I was never interested. in this topic. Like, Israel is a country. with borders and sovereignty and a seat. at the UN. It's like a it's a nation. state like ours, like every country. The.

second you start telling me that as a. Christian, I'm obligated to support the. government of this country, then I have. a right to ask you what you're talking. about. It's that simple. So, okay, fine. I flew all the way to Israel, which I. didn't want to do, and I asked him, "What are you talking about? To whom. does this right apply? And on what. basis?" Shut up, anti-semite. Okay. Now, so from my perspective, that. was like the most revealing conversation. I think I've ever had. >> Why though were you so interested in. those questions about.

>> Why? Because we're now in a war which is. in the process of destroying the United. States economy and getting Americans. killed because Israel pushed the United. States president who gave. I'm not. giving him a pass, but that's just a. fact. That's what happened. I saw it. And Israel has that power in our. Congress. Not because we have so many. Jews. I don't know how many Jews live in. the United States. Fewer than 10. million, I think. but because we have. tens of millions of evangelical. Christians who unquestionably support.

Israel because they believe it's their. theological duty to do so. So on this. question hangs the future of the. American economy and the lives of. American service members. There's no. more important question. and the effort. to push me away from that question by. calling me names, calling me a hater, saying I'm obsessed with Israel. Okay, I. would be grateful never to think about. it again. I find Israel actually. geostrategically irrelevant except the. extent that we imbue it with relevance.

at the behest largely of evangelical. Christians. So you can see there's a. onetoone correlation between these. questions and the future of my country. Mike Huckabe and the people he. represents have made it the nation's. business at which point it is entirely. fair in fact it's a requirement of good. citizenship to press him on what are you. talking about and he refused to answer. those questions at which point I say as. someone who's still committed to reason. you've been exposed as a fraud andor a.

liar. >> I think one of the reasons why uh this. was particularly really um notable for. many people that interaction that you. had with Mike Huckabe um and the reason. you in particular got so much push back. um is because there is an enormous. sensitivity around. Israel being the homeland of the Jewish. people and the attempt to delegitimize.

that. >> I have enormous sensitivity about the. United States being the homeland of my. people and the burial place of my. ancestors. I have enormous sensitivity. about the future of the United States. Those are my concerns. I'm not. dismissing the concerns of any other. group, including Israelis or Iranians or. Venezuelans or anybody else. Everybody. has his or her own set of concerns. But. my concerns revolve around my country. And so I am not going to subordinate my. concerns and the concerns of my children. to other people's hysteria, no matter.

what country it is. >> Why do you think you get tagged so often. with anti-semitism? because it's I think. there are two reasons. One is I'm not an. anti-semite and I think that's obvious. I have and I've expressed this many. times. Don't do so again. I have. temperamental and religious objections. to anti-semitism. or any hate or discrimination based on. bloodline. That is against Christian. theology. It's against my personal.

ethics and I oppose it no matter who is. suffering from it. Whether it's whites. or blacks or Jews, nobody can be. punished for his bloodline. Period. I. don't believe in collective punishment. unlike the Israeli government. So that's. number one. I am opposed to. anti-semitism. and that's a threat because I'm not. approaching this as someone who wants to. hurt Jews. I just don't want the United. States to be implicated in the crimes of. other nations and I'm not intimidated.

And number two, that is a much easier conversation than. answering very simple questions like. where does the right to exist come from. that Israel has that I've been told for. many years has a right a unique right. globally to exist. Where does that right. emanate from? Who granted that right and. on what grounds? And they can't answer. the questions and they don't want to. have the conversation. So, just to be. totally clear, asking questions is not. hate. Telling the truth is not hate. And they don't want to answer the.

questions and they don't want to tell. the truth. And by the way, it's not just Jews. It's. I think I've been attacked more. viciously by Christian Zionists than I. have by Jews. Just in point of fact, it's a kind of nice universalism to it. Um, but I'm not intimidated. I I don't. know why I would be. In fact, I think. it's my obligation not to be. intimidated. Can asking questions though. stir up hate? I mean, language is. powerful. >> Well, sure. I mean, you could pose. attacks in the form of questions. I've. certainly done that a lot. Um, for sure.

But the questions themselves hang in the. air and a legitimate question deserves. an answer. H the reason I want to press. on this a little bit more is that you. know that there is an entire. um anti-semitic worldview that has been. based on the protocols of the elders of. Zion you know that there is like this. cabal of powerful Jews that controls the.

world and you know that book was written. in the early uh 20th century but it you. know helped the Nazis s and it really. has informed a lot of the views of many. people today that there is you know this. very powerful sect of Jewish people who. want global war and global conflict and. I think that there is a concern that I. have and a real concern I don't I don't. mean this as uh as something that people. say to slander anyone but just a real.

concern that the rhetoric where. everything is blamed on Israel where. Israel has these supernatural powers. almost to influence the president to um. influence the previous President George. W. Bush to enter um into the Iraq war um. to you know be involved in. assassinations etc. that it has echoes. of that and that people are genuinely. concerned that it opens the door to this.

idea that has been debunked and has been. used in you know absolutely vicious ways. to annihilate an entire people. >> I'm not quite sure what that means. Um, let me tell you my concerns. My main. concern is the destruction of the United. States. And that is in no way to. minimize anyone else's concerns, but I. have a right to that concern. And I will. not have my own concerns hijacked. I.

will not submit to being told what my. concerns should be. I'm an adult man who. pays his taxes. I have a right to come. up with my own hierarchy of concern. At. the very top is the destruction of my. country, which I've lived in for 56. years. And I know that it's not better. than it was and it's not getting better. than it was. And there are many reasons. for that. One of them is this war. But. there are many others. And so people. say, "Well, I'm really concerned." Well, I am really concerned, too. I'm really. concerned that the prime minister of. Israel and his many cheerleaders in.

American media, including at the New. York Times, if I can say, pushed the US. government into a war that hurts the. United States. That's my concern. And I. would say that's at least co-equal with. anyone else's concerns. So that's the. first thing I would say. Second, as the. elders of Zion or whatever, I don't know what that is. I've heard. references to it. It's like a Tsarist. forgery or something. >> Look, I'm just wondering what the line. is for you. >> The line for me is the truth. What is. actually.

>> between criticism? I mean, this is, by. the way, a very difficult line. I am I. am in no means um purporting to. understand necessarily where it is. I'm. curious for you where the line is. between criticism of the state of Israel. and. how that could be perceived as feeding. into anti-semitism. >> Well, it breaks my heart that it is. perceived that way and that's the. product that perception is the product. of a decadesl long effort to conflate.

anti-semitism with any criticism of the. secular government of Israel. Okay. So. the IHA definition of anti-semitism. lists 11 examples of anti-semitism and. that's been adopted globally. 40. different governments have adopted it as. their standard of what anti-semitism is. And twothirds of the examples are. criticism of Israel. So you know I don't. get to write these standards. I also. don't have to abide by them. And I. reject as ludicrous out of hand the idea. that the criticism of a secular.

government. is the same as criticism of an entire. ethnic group. many of whom do not. support that secular government, many of. whom reject that secular government, and. a lot of those I know personally. So, you're just not going to get me on board. with the lie that criticism of Netanyahu. is hatred of all Jews because it's not. And I don't care how many times someone. repeats that to me. I don't care. And. and by the way, I've lost friends over. this and I do grieve that people who are. totally convinced that. >> this BB that you're against or if there.

was a different government in Israel, it. would. >> I'm against anything that hurts my. country, why wouldn't I be? I live here. >> No, but I'm just curious like if if. there's elections coming up and if BB. gets kicked out, are you. >> I took my family on vacation there. Obviously, I'm not against Israel. I. never have been against. By the way, you. can check the record. before maybe 2 and a half years ago. I. don't think I ever Well, I certainly. never criticized Israel, but I never. rarely even mentioned Israel. I could. give you a long list of the things that. I love about Israel, particularly about.

Jerusalem, which is one of my favorite. cities. Jerusalem and Beirut, greatest. cities in the world. It kills me to see. them at the center of all of this. I. think the second that we. ban criticism of a foreign country, well, of course, we're not free at that. point. were slaves of that other. country. You know, you you whatever you. can't criticize is is the force in. charge. I don't think it's, by the way, good for global jewelry to have any of. this at all. If you tell 350 million. Americans that it's against the law, and.

it's very close to against the law at. this point. It's against law to. criticize Israel. How does that help the perception? Does. that feed anti-semitism? I think it. does. Not as my job to monitor or. regulate the stuff, but I mean, just. common sense would tell you that's not. good. If you want to make the case on. behalf of anything, any idea, including. ones I disagree with, make your case. Tell me why it's a good idea. And we're. falling out of that habit, and instead. trying to hurt people who disagree with.

us. And I just will always reject that. Uh I guess I'm the liberal. Hm. I would. say it's not exactly against the law, but I understand your point. >> Someone was just arrested because look, the second uh things that. >> Well, the second you say that criticism. >> is the same as a threat or words or. violence, then of course it's very easy. to. to arrest people as they are arrested in. Great Britain. You be they've had. hundreds of people arrested in Great. Britain for criticizing Israel. I don't.

know why any liberal-minded, and I'm in. that group, liberal-minded. You have a. right to your views. I have a right to. mine. I don't know why any. liberal-minded person would go along. with this and not say, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. This is totally bonkers.". And this is the road to totalitarianism. And I would say that about any topic. >> H. I'm going to um move on. because we've talked about some fissures. that have emerged among conservatives. over Israel in the war, right? you've. talked about. Yeah. Sort of blown up.

>> Yeah. And I want to dig into that. because um earlier this year you told. Megan Kelly that there is quote a huge. scramble and you said I'm in the middle. of it to define what the Republican. party is after Trump. >> Yep. >> So boil down the scramble for me. [laughter] Are there two sides? >> Well, I lost that scramble. >> Yeah. I mean, is it driven by ideas, personalities? I mean, something else. like what do you what do you what do you. see happening? Look, I mean, there have been um. disagreements over foreign policy within.

the Republican party for well, really. since 2015 when Trump announced for. president. There was no disagreement at. all. It was a neoonservative party. completely. I was part of that for sure. and uh unthinkingly and then. unwillingly, but whatever. Um but since. 2015 there's been this kind of debate. like well you know what is the. appropriate use of American power and. what is our relationship with Israel and. those have been sort of sodoce debates. but it's only with this full regime.

change effort against Iran that they've. become untenable like you can't I mean. my own view is I'm always happy to eat. with and talk with people I disagree. with I again I guess I'm the liberal. But there is a strong sense among the. neocons who've completely taken over the. Republican party that anyone who. disagrees cannot be allowed like. literally in the White House. Um, okay. I don't make these rules. I feel sad. about it for a bunch of reasons. I would.

say as a political matter, the. constituency constituency for that is. very small. There aren't, you know, 150. million people in America who are really. excited about the Iran war or who are. ever going to be excited about that. So, you're dooming your party to irrelevance. when you do that. I don't know why they. would want to. Um, they hate Trump. The. neocons hate Trump. Have always hated. Trump. I I had a first row seat to this. And And now they've destroyed him. And I.

told him that. I said, "These are people. who hated you from day one. They. couldn't control you. They hated you for. that reason. What you said about the. Iraq war inflamed them. It humiliated. them. And they want to destroy you. And. this war will destroy you." I said that. point blank right to him. And it's true. and it's I think proven true now. >> And what do you mean about you being in. the middle of it and losing the. scramble? >> Well, because Charlie Kirk and I I think. were the only people I'm confident in. saying we're the we're the only people. in June of 2025 to say to the president,

"This is a very bad idea. The people. pushing this are trying to get you. involved in a regime change war. You've. campaigned against that. Don't do this.". And then in on September 10th, um, Charlie [clears throat] was murdered by. a lone gunman. So, uh, by the time this. latest round happened in January, in. February, I I'm think I was the only. person who said that to Trump for a. bunch of reasons. So.

now it's, you know, I mean, we we know. who won by the effects. So this was from. my perspective was a debate between. people who thought it was wise to use. American power in the way we're now. using it and those who thought it was. dangerous and Trump did it. So obviously. he rejected my view. >> I I want to stay though with how some of. this is playing out because as you. mentioned you were very close to Charlie. Kirk before he was killed. Um, and he. started Turning Point USA, which is this.

very influential group among young. people on the right. And you're now seeing some on the right. who are questioning whether Israel had a. hand in Charlie Kirk's murder. Um, and I. should say the theories that Israel was. linked to Charlie's death were denied by. Israel. There's been no proof of that at. all. And crucially, this theory has been. condemned by Erica Kirk, Charlie's. widow. Do you still have a relationship. with Turning Point USA? Um, well, I I have always loved Erica. Kirk and I met her when she was dating.

Charlie and thought so much of her. Um, I know a lot of people at Turning Point. I was the headliner for a bunch of. different Turning Point events. Um, I. haven't been asked to do it this year. Don't know if I will be. Never said a. word against Turning Point. I I think. it's been a really Well, I was their. headliner for a bunch of years, so. obviously I supported it. Um, I would. hate to see it hijacked by its donors to. become an oracle of neoonservatism. I think it'd be pretty hard to do. because its members are not for that.

Young people are not for that. People of. draft age are especially not for that. >> I mean, when was the last time you spoke. to Erica Kirk? >> Couple of weeks ago. >> Okay. >> By text. So, my concern, and this is not. about Erica Kirk or Andrew Kovette or. any of those people with whom I've never. had a cross word and hope never to have. a cross word, um, but my concern more. broadly is about the investigation into. Charlie's murder, which was. shortcircuited by the FBI. And I'd like. to know why. And I I don't care to be.

screamed at for asking that question. It's a legitimate question, and we know. that. Uh, well, I know that for a bunch. of reasons, but uh, the public knows it. because Joe Kent said it out loud and. explained it. He's the head of the. National Counterterrorism Center. He's. an ODNI and he was told by the FBI that. he could not investigate it. And as a. friend of Charlie's, I'm not going to be. intimidated into saying the following, which is on what grounds would you do. that? I'm not saying the guy who's been.

arrested didn't pull the trigger. I'm. not There's been a trial. He was. obviously handed over by his father. Um, >> do we know that? I don't know what I. know because there hasn't been a trial. yet. And again, it's like so many. things. And it's not just Israel. It's. not just Charlie Kirk. It's the. existence of NATO or the way the economy. is structured. Why is capital taxed at. half the rate of labor? Like that's a. question that bothers me in every case. Shut up. Socialist, racist, conspiracy. theor. It's like I I'm just too old for.

that. Why don't you answer the question? That's my job. >> Do you think turning points influence um. has waned since Charlie's death? >> I haven't the vainest idea. Um I do. think that, you know, I agree with most Americans. when I say I think this war is a. disaster. It's impossible to see how it. hurts the United States. And uh, you. know, I would like to see all.

self-described conservative groups. pressure the president as Charlie did to. minimize the damage and and I hope. Turning Point is working on that. I. don't know the answer, but I certainly. hope they are. I can't. Yeah. So, they should. I I I can say. confidently Charlie would be working to. do that. Obviously, Turning Point is. just one organization trying to reach. youth on the right, but you also have. Nick Fuentes, the far-right W uh white. nationalist influencer who's called. Hitler effing cool, um who also has a. huge following among young right-leaning.

uh men. How do you see Fuentes in terms of the. future of the right? >> You know, it's so hard to know. I'll tell you my instinct on it. Most of. the debates about race, ethnicity, religion, to some extent, immigration. are. less resonant long-term than debates. about economics. I think the main. frustration among young people is not.

just that the composition of the country. is changing too fast, which it. definitely is, but the main concerns are. about the lack of economic opportunity. for American young people who are. totally screwed at like a more profound. level than people acknowledge. Older. people do not acknowledge that. I had. dinner the other night with a bunch of. kids from Stanford, really smart. They're at Stanford. And one of them. said, "Oh yeah, his best friend just. graduated with a degree in computer. science last year. Has not been able to. find a job. Stanford computer science.

can't find a job." So that's like a. window into the total destruction of the. economic opportunity for young people. and the what looks to me as a. non-economist like the true hoarding of. capital by a tiny group of people. It. looks like a very lopsided and unfair. economic system that is guaranteed to. radicalize young people and not just. young people but especially young. people. And so I think most future conversations.

politically will be about economics. I. do think that I think we're at sort of. the last stage. This is the last time. the US has ever. >> So you so you see what I'm trying to. understand is you see that as Fuentes's. power waning. >> for sure. Well, I don't know. Fuentes in. particular. I mean, I, you know, never. even wasn't even aware of Fuentes. I. mean, again, I'm just in a different. world, right? Okay. I read the New York. Times or whatever. Like, I'm just older. Okay. So, I'm not an expert on Fuentes's. reach or even what he's saying. dayto-day. I really don't know. But he.

has been caricatured as a race guy, which he may be by the way, who's like. mad about the Jews or black people or. whatever. But I'm just telling you I. think the future the energy, not just on. the right, but I I think right and left. agree on this under 30 is that young. people have been shafted by older. people, particularly by the baby. boomers, people born between 46 and 64. And I think they're right about that. I. do think that's like the most selfish. generation, most loathsome, mediocre.

generation in this country ever. produced. Not all of them, but in. general, I would say their behavior has. been shameful and selfish. And I hear. young people talk not about, you know, I'm mad at the Jews. I hear young people. say things like, "Only baby boomers. would like have a second home in Iso. Palm, South Carolina, but like not help. their kids buy homes." That's what I. hear. I hear people who understand that. their lives will bear no resemblance to. the lives of their parents and. grandparents, and they're really upset.

about it. Meanwhile, there are all these. people making billions on clearly. fraudulent enterprises, cryptoreated enterprises and other. enterprises that are like not adding to. the sum total of prosperity in this. country and not making the country. better. >> So that's where I think the radicalism. is going to start. And the murder of. that healthc care executive in New York, the healthurer guy, I'm against all. murder, just okay, just to be totally. clear. But I was. surprised but not really shocked by the. reaction, the positive reaction. All.

these kind of normal looking people on. the internet are like, I'm glad they. killed him. They don't even know his. name. However, that reflects this revolutionary. frustration. And I do think it's. revolutionary. I think one of the. reasons that Trump is apparently going. to make weed legal is just so we can. lower testosterone levels even more. Just make people more passive. Have some. more benzo. Like, it's fine. It's. totally fine. because it's not fine is. the truth. So again, long-winded answer. to a short question, but I the future. that I imagine is not a future in which.

we're yelling at each other about race. It's a future in which people are. legitimately revolutionary, maybe even. violent on the basis of thwarted. economic. opportunity. >> I mean, Fuentes wants America to be a. white Christian nation, among other. things. >> Okay. Well, he's very good at defending. the New York Times, but I think the real. issues are not about Fuentes or even. about race. Immigration has a direct. effect on economics. And so the. overwhelming majority of newly created.

jobs in the past 5 years have gone to. foreign born. So like that's it's not an. attack on the foreign born to say that's. not really the job of the US government. to provide economic opportunity to the. world. The job is to protect its own. people. >> I can tell you don't want to talk about. Fentes. Um, >> well, I don't I don't have a lot to say. Like, okay, he said naughty things about. this, that, or the other thing. Okay. >> No. Well, you caused a big I'm focusing. on you. This is an interview. >> You didn't cause anything. People got. hysterical. How can you talk to this. man? I talked to people.

>> Fuentes onto your show. >> I've interviewed Ted Cruz, who's calling. for the murder of innocents. I don't. think Fuentes is doing that. >> But that conversation was pretty. friendly. Um, you know, >> say that. I mean, whatever. Okay, I'm. naughty for talking to Fuentes, but. >> but you've been doing this for decades. I mean, I have watched you and your. shows. >> for a very long time. [gasps]. >> And you obviously have a very savvy. understanding of how to approach your. interviews and how they're going to. land. >> Um, you know, >> I don't know about that, but yeah.

>> Well, I don't think I'm that savvy. Maybe I'm underelling myself. [laughter]. >> I mean, why did you want to handle it. the way that you did? Um, you know, you. started with Well, I've explained this a. million times, but I'll explain it very. crisply. >> No, you started, you know, I noticed. talking about his background and where. he grew up. It's a it's a different kind. of interview than the one when I look at. Ambassador Huckabe. >> I've known Huckabe for over 30 years. He's been a public figure for over 30. years.

>> One was prosetorial. You were building a. case. The other one was friendly. I mean. you were wrestling quite vigorously with. >> if I agreed with everything Fuentes said. I would just say so I would just say so. like there's no the the effort to kind. of like divine my motives when I state. my motives clearly I think I'm telling. the truth. >> I know but you as you have acknowledged. let me just state my motives you use. questions sometimes as a form. >> if I could just state my motives and you. can either believe me or not and I've. done this many times but I'll do it once.

more. >> and say. I'd never heard of Fuentes is I first. heard him cuz he was attacking me and my. family which enraged me. Um I did fall. for the bait and uh so then I thought. well should this guy seems like I keep. hearing he's very influential. Let's. have him on hear what he has to say. So. I did that and on the question of hating. Jews because they're Jews. I'm opposed. Told him that to his face. Lots of. people decided that I should have taken. a different tone. Okay. Do your own.

interview with Fontes if you want. that's okay with me. But I guess what. I've come to believe I I didn't feel it. was a significant interview, especially. um on any level except the extent it was. used to try and make me into a Nazi, which again I'm not. I would admit it. [snorts] But what I think is interesting. is the is the kind of moral scheme that. that interview revealed, which not surprisingly is childish and. kind of repulsive. And by moral scheme,

I mean like what the people in charge, including in journalism, think is right. and wrong. So I think anyone who calls. for the murder of innocents or justifies. them is the lowest possible person. There's nothing worse than that than. killing kids. And you take someone like. Randy Fine or Ted Cruz, >> representative from Florida. >> Yeah. Mike, right? These are all I don't. know fine. But I um. >> but I know the other two very well and.

have for many years and both of them. have just been like no no we should go. kill people and and their kids and they. make excuses for that. Like there's. nothing worse than that. And yet. [snorts]. those are to the only controversial part. of those interviews from the perspective. of others in journalism is that I was. too mean. I was too tough. I was too. tough on Mike Huckabe who's a sitting US. ambassador or Ted Cruz who's a. >> I don't think that was the concern. >> Okay. But but looking I think it I think. you know you when you just compare them.

um. >> who do you think is more morally. repulsive? Ted Cruz. >> Who do you think is more morally. repulsive? >> Ted Cruz. Ted Cruz is a sitting US senator who has. called for the killing of people who did. nothing wrong. Whole populations who. advocated for this war. Nick Fuentes is. like a kid. He's like 26 or 70. He has. no power except his words. Here you have. a public official who we pay, who has.

actual power, who's voting for things, who's making policy decisions, and those. decisions would include, in fact, they. are focused on the murder of people who. did nothing wrong. And yet, no one. thinks it's a big deal. What? Well, this. is totally fine. I mean, if there's tape. of Nick Fuentes saying we should kill. people because we hate their parents or. it's okay to kill children, I would love. to see the tape cuz that's disgusting. And that's basically what the entire US. Senate does every single day. And no one. notices. Nick Fuentes said something. naughty that I disagreed with. He made. fun of things that I don't think I would.

never make fun of. >> He's a white nationalist who was denied. the Holocaust. And what I will say, >> okay, but is that worse than killing. kids? from my from my understanding of. my own you know I was just in Germany. recently um and you know it was such a. good reminder that the Holocaust didn't. start with the gassing of Jews it. started with the dehumanization of Jews. it was language that was used and again. that is what it. >> I couldn't agree more and that's why.

when you have a US senator a member of. Congress a US ambassador waving away. civil billion deaths as if they don't. matter. That's the language of genocide. which results and this is the lesson of. the Holocaust in genocide itself and it. has. So the lesson for me really. watching all of this is that this can. happen in civilized countries in all. human beings. There is the capacity to. ignore the evil right in front of you. And I'm my point is it's happening right.

now. and my job to the extent I have one. I don't really have a job but I just. want to remind people that we're all. capable of that including me and that. we're watching it right now and if you. think that Nick Fuentes is a greater. threat to other human beings than Ted. Cruz I would love to know how [snorts]. >> I can imagine people hearing this and. thinking you are softpeding Nick Fuentes. you are apologizing. >> softpedaling Nick Fuentes I'm trying to. awaken people to killing of innocents in.

our midst. which we are not only encouraged to. ignore but really told to ignore on pain. of being denounced. And I'm just saying no, I'm not doing. that. And Ted Cruz and Mike Huckabe are. two of the main people making this. moment possible. And President Trump, but Nick Fuentes is the problem. Okay, it's not a defense of Nick Fuentes. It's. merely like a reality check for the rest. of us. What are we doing? We began this conversation um by.

discussing your rupture with President. Trump. Um. and I'd like to ask about your. relationship with the vice president. because you were one of the people. credited with getting him into that. role. Uh you were close to him. Um you. advocated for him. Are you still close. to Vance considering your rupture with. the president? I mean, I will always. love JD Vance as a man. I think, and I'm.

I'm [clears throat] making this judgment. on the basis of his public statements. over many years, I think he's in a tough. spot. He's in a tough spot. I mean, he. was on the record repeatedly saying this. is exactly the thing that this. administration would avoid doing and now. they've done it. >> President Trump was also on the record. saying, >> as I've said many times, exactly. And by. the way, I wouldn't characterize as a. rupture with Trump. He betrayed his. promises to me and everybody else. And I. acknowledge that in public, so that. doesn't make me the person who breached. the contract. He's the one who breached.

the contract to be clear. But it puts. the vice president in a super difficult. spot. And I know him well and think so. much of him as a person. And it is my. guess that based on his past behavior. that he's doing everything he can to. mitigate what he sees as the ill effects. of this. And um but it's kind of hard to. call the shots when you're vice. president because that's not in the. constitution. So no, I I would never I I.

put him in a bad situation just by my. public, you know, he was attacked. endlessly for my Nick Fuentes interview. Oh, so scary. And uh okay, so I always. felt bad about that. He didn't do. anything, you know what I mean? But I. was used as a cudgel to beat him over. the head because the neocons hated him. because they thought that if he ever. became president, he would be less. compliant. than than the president turned out to. be. So, you know, I don't want to add to. that at all. I think he's a really good. man. I know he's a good man because I.

know him very well. But, you know, I I. don't have anything else to say to. anyone in the administration because I. can't affect. >> You don't talk to him. >> any outcome. When was the last time you. spoke to the vice president? >> Oh, I don't know. But I wouldn't I. wouldn't um I don't want to add to his. problems at all, but I would just say. what's obvious is that I'm hardly an. adviser to this administration. >> And uh and I think it's also clear that. Donald Trump makes these decisions. >> You really don't know the last time you. spoke to Vice President JD Vance?

>> Weeks, months, days? >> I don't know. I mean, I would never. characterize that. I don't want to cause. him more problems. I would just say I'm. not advising. No one's seeking my. counsel. I'm not trying to influence. anything. I gave it my best shot. Didn't. work. >> Well, let me ask you this. Vance was not. in favor of the war, but he ultimately. didn't seem willing to die on the hill. I mean, he could resign. He could um. there's many things he could have done, I suppose. Do you wish he'd been more. forceful? You know, I will just say I'll. just be totally blunt about what I'm.

doing, which is taking a pass on your. question and say that I know JD very. very well and I think it's like super. tough situation. He's in my prayers. I. mean that and I just don't want to add. >> to the what is clearly a really hard. job. >> I know that if you were in my position, you'd press. >> Oh, go crazy. But I'm just saying like. I'm start. I mean I my only goal is I just want to. be honest and so I'm being as I think as. transparent as I possibly can be or I'm.

>> being and I'm being transparent in. saying that my job is also to press you. I get it. Um so. however he has felt privately um. publicly Vance has been a loyal soldier. um even going so far as to head the. recent negotiations with the Iranians. >> and we've seen and you've commented. >> how unpopular this war is among the. American people. Do you think the role. that he is playing right now will hurt.

his political prospects? There are. people in the White House uh who want to. hurt JD Vance and have wanted that since. the very first day. They were bitter. They wanted Marco Rubio to be the the. choice as vice president. And so JD has. been subject to, this is well known, but I'll just. confirm it. Non-stop. treachery from people on the. neoconservative side. >> Who are these people. >> around Marco Rubio? >> And by the way, Marco Rubio's got to be. one of the most charming people in the. whole world. and uh you know it's it's.

impossible to dislike Marco Rubio and. I'm not an intimate friend or anything. but um so I can't say to what extent. he's involved in it but certainly he is. the choice of the donor class the donor. class is avowedly neoonservative that's. why they give money for outcomes like. the ones we're watching that's why this. whole system is completely rotten and. just impervious to reform and they have. been totally against JD Vance from the. very beginning. >> specifically because I mean it was. interesting in those conversations with.

Susie Wilds, for example, where she was. very much praising um Marco Rubio uh and. [snorts] had less maybe complimentary. things to say about JD Vance. I mean, is. that to whom you're referring? >> You know, I don't know is the real. answer. I don't know. >> I mean, you're accusing people of. treachery, so I'm wondering. >> Well, I know there's been a lot of. treachery for sure. And I know they've. been they were so mad about JD getting. that job. I mean, >> they who's they? >> Well, Mary Menson, for example. um.

Rupert Murdoch, you know, people who. were very much vested in using Trump for. what we're seeing now. >> But within the White House, >> I don't, you know, I don't know the. answer to that. I've never worked there. So, like, if you don't work there, you. can say you, you know, you can say what. you think you know, but it's hard to. really know. >> This is me looking skeptical. >> Yeah. Well, no, it's me being honest. Like, I don't really know. And you read. all these things about, you know, Susie, you know, is of course a product of. Florida and there's a whole Florida. group and the consultants and Marco and.

all the rest and people whisper about. that. Is that true? I really don't know. I've never heard her say anything. against JD. She seemed to love JD, but. who knows, man. You know, who knows? But. I know I I I definitely know that like. outside. it's hard to believe that Mark Levin and. Laura Loomer who are, you know, [snorts]. have no constituency whatsoever and. would have influence in the White House, but they do. Both of them have been out. for Vance from day one big time. >> Do you think it's hurting though his. political prospects to repeat the. question that he has been put in the.

position according to you that he is. fronting these um negotiations in Iran? >> Yeah. I mean well it's I think this. whole not it's not even JD specific. This whole thing is like dooming anyone. connected to it for the foreseeable. future including the entire Republican. party. And um you know, if you're psyched for. President Gavin Newsome, I guess that's. a good thing. I'm not. So, I think it's. a disaster. It's a true disaster. And.

again, I told Trump this like 10 times. Like, this is going to blow up your. legacy. All this gold you put in here. Like, they're going to take it down and. mock you as they do. Like, this is going. to blow up your You're concerned about. your legacy. You're 80 in June. Like, I. get it. But this is not the way. And I And I. think that's proven true. >> [snorts]. >> So, you think this will doom JD Vance as. well? >> I don't know. Doom. I mean, I I'm. obviously not good at calling the. future, but I I couldn't be more, you. know, I couldn't be a bigger fan of him.

as a man, but I think anybody connected. to this is going to have a hard time. explaining it because how is this good. for the United States? It's not. >> One more question on this particular um. issue. It was just published that your. son, who worked for the VP, um left that. job. Did your rift with Trump have. anything to do with that and make it. hard for him? >> Zero. He was not forced out of the role. at all. And my understanding of it is uh. let me just say in a normal world, in a. decent world,

my son or my son's job would have no. relevance at all to me. >> Why did your son leave then if it if he. wasn't forced out? Um. >> I don't know. You can ask him, but he. was there over a year. Like I don't. know. White House is an intense place to. work. I don't want to talk about my son. He's got nothing to do with this. >> No, I mean, >> no, but that's kind of the point. Like, >> we need to defend the core beliefs of. our civilization, which by the way are. attractive to the entire world. People.

move here not just for our robust. economy, but because they want to be. judged on the basis of what they did, not on what their parents did. That's. the whole point. >> That's collective punishment. It's blood. guilt. And we reject it. I gave this. lecture to Nick Fuentes. I gave this. lecture to Mike Huckabe. The lecture. never changes because the idea is the. core idea of our civilization. >> Since [snorts] you mentioned Nick. Fuentes, I have one last question. [laughter] Ah, you open the door. >> I don't care about Nick Fuentes. >> He is not a JD Vance fan. He's called.

him a race traitor because of his. marriage to OSHA. >> I don't care. >> Um, who is Indian-American? Wait, let me. finish the question. I mean, given how. influential Fuentes is right now, >> is he? >> Is he not? >> I don't know. Doesn't seem to be. He. didn't get us into war with Iran. Like, who cares? Actually, that's kind of what. I'm saying. Like, all of this is like a. sideshow. Americans are being killed in. a foreign country at the behest of. another foreign country and it's going. to wreck the US dollar and cause. hyperinflation on our country. And we're.

like fretting about what some kid on the. internet said. It's like, who cares? Actually, this is a way of taking us. away from the core issues which are. economic. They're economic and that is. the one thing that nobody ever wants to. talk about. How is the money. distributed? Where does the money come. from? No one wants that. That's why like. the only left-wing movement I ever had a. lot of sympathy for was the one that. arose after the global financial crisis, Occupy Wall Street. I wasn't I didn't.

know exactly what they were about, but I. was like, "Yeah, we should be mad at the. banks because like they did this and no. one got punished." And within like 20. minutes, we're talking about black. people and white people. It was like. >> I'm I am I'm I'm happy to talk about. economics, but your interview with. Fuentes has 25 million views. >> But to say that it doesn't matter isn't. And. >> it matters in what sense? Like does it. matter more than. >> But let me let can I finish my question? Thank you. given how influential he is and I I just.

don't think that there's any argument. about that. Um. >> I'm wondering how. >> I'm wondering how you think JD Vance. could become the leader of the party. after Trump if you have someone like. Fuentes speaking so critically of him. >> So I love I'm so glad you asked that. question because its premise reveals. everything. >> All right, tell me. >> So the premise of your question is that. JD Vance can't. >> No, I'm not saying that he can't. It's. going to be difficult for JD Vance to. advance politically because of. >> is I'm asking do you think.

>> just the premise that it could be a that. JD Vance is intracial marriage is a. bigger problem than his foreign policy. views. >> No, I didn't say that. >> It it doesn't. >> No, I'm saying that there is a person. who is incredibly influential in the. >> Is he incredibly influential? Like on. what ev what base are you saying that? >> Oh my goodness. There's there's lots of. evidence not only in the reach of what. he um talks about but also. >> can you name a single member of member. of Congress who's acknowledged his. existence or said I did this because he. told me to.

>> That's a groper. I I I don't know that. there's. >> Oh, there's not a single member of. Congress who would ever stand hold on. who would ever stand up and say or even. show evidence of being influenced by. Nick Fuentes where there out of 535. there are about 500 who are taking money. from Apac. I have already asked about. the war's impact on Vance. This is a. question about the future of the party. and the future of any party are its. young people. And and in the same way. that Turning Point USA has influence on.

young conservatives, so does Nick. Fuentes. And so. >> I guess I don't know how we're measuring. that, but what I'm trying all I'm trying. to ask you here is is if you No, but but. listen, there is. >> a strain a strain in the Republican. party, especially among young people who. are racist, who talk about JD Vance and. his marriage in a particular way. And. I'm asking you, and you can decide not.

to answer it, but I'm simply asking you. >> Well, I'm trying to answer it. No, if. you think that that. >> is going to be a problem for JD Vance. leading the party because. >> let me answer your question. Um, you. were unable to to to. tell me how Fuentes was influential in. any way. >> other than the views on a video which. are probably lower than those on your. average porn video. So that's like not a. good measurement. >> It's not meaningful. Does he have. influence on our politics? I haven't.

seen any. Um, so let's just start there. Second, JD Vance's problems with young. people and old people and the party. itself revolve around his views on. foreign policy and economics, which are. the issues that actually matter. Third, race is thrown up as a distraction so. often as in this case to distract from. what actually matters because on. questions of economic let me just finish. on questions of econ if I can finish on.

the. Fentis himself is a distraction from the. conversations that matter because power. is displayed through the structure of. the economic system globally and per. country and in the use of force. So it's. the economic program and the foreign. policy program are what matters in every. government from the beginning of time. Those are the two questions on which. there's a bipartisan consensus in. Washington between Republicans and. Democrats that were we should do this.

thing. The public rejects that thing on. both categories. They reject the. economics that are a consensus choice in. Washington and they reject the foreign. policy that's consensus choice in. Washington. And so Washington's. response, Wall Street's response as well. is to be like, let's have a race war and. you guys can like argue over blacks or. whites or whether JD is married to an. Indian woman. Like what? And so Fuentes. is incredibly useful for people with. actual power to divert the conversation. to something that is both irrelevant and. divisive because it's a divide and.

conquer strategy. And my strong view. gained over 35 years of watching. carefully and being involved is that. that's come to its end. >> Okay. And I JD's real problems are his. foreign policy views, the ones he's. articulated for 10 years, are in direct. opposition to the foreign policy views. of the people who fund the Republican. party and the Democratic party, same. people. And they have the same views. >> It's the idea of the uni party. >> It well on these questions, it's totally. true. We can argue about the trans the.

trans thing. Another you can have. legitimate views on race, legitimate. views on trans. That's all those are. real issues. I'm not saying they're not. But those are not the issues on which. empires rise and fall. The emp the real. issues are economics and foreign policy. And on those issues there's a bipartisan. consensus. And so they throw up like, "No, we we're disagreeing on trans. We're disagreeing on affirmative action. or whatever." But they dis they agree on. all that matters and JD disagrees as. Trump did at least in his public.

statements. This is the wrong foreign. policy course. This economic system is. hurting young people. And so Fuentes. shows up and everyone wants to talk. about Fuentes because it's really safe. No one wants to talk about why are. capital gains taxes half those of taxes. on regular income. Like I think that's. like a critical debate. You will never. have that debate. Have you ever asked a. question about that? No. No one ever. asked that. And I think that's like. nothing's more important domestically. than that. But whatever. That's my. opinion. >> Okay. I wish I hadn't done the Fentes.

interview because. >> really. >> yeah it was totally not worth it. I mean. it was like kind of interesting I guess. but it was used as. I added to the distraction. What I. really wanted to talk about. was where we were going in this war with. Iran. >> And I spent like a month getting calls. from people being like you're a Nazi. Okay. And I wish I hadn't done that. Not that.

it didn't imperil my soul. I've. interviewed far worse people than Nick. Fuentes, like Mike Huckabe. Far worse. person than Nick Fuentes. Hurt many more. people than Nick Fuentes. Same with Ted. Cruz. But so I don't think it affected. me. I interview people I disagree with. all the time. And often I'm polite to. them, including war criminals. The only person I've really been in play. with is Ted Cruz because I have limited. self-control and he's just so repulsive. I couldn't control myself and I was a I.

was a jerk and I tried to apologize. But. if you had to sit across from Ted Cruz, it's just there's something about him. It's just like repulsive. I mean, it's. like disgusting. Like if you entered a. men's room and Ted Cruz was there, you. would be like, I can hold it. I'm. leaving. And and I broke down under the. strain of his repulsiveness. But in. general, I try to be nice to everybody. But man, that that Fentes interview, I. just added to the distraction. >> I think we're done for now. We're going. to speak again. >> We're going to speak again? [music]. >> Yeah. You didn't know that?

>> No. >> Oh, you thought this was one and done? [laughter]. Oh, my man. No. On the [music]. interview, we speak to our guest twice. So, a few days later, I followed up with. Tucker Carlson. We talked about his. views on immigration, his disdain for. both parties, and whether he [music]. thinks his rupture with President Trump. is permanent. >> Hi. >> Hey. How you doing? >> I'm good. All right. You're a little. loud in my ear. Let me let me turn you.

down. >> I'm a little loud in many people's ears, >> but um um thank you for uh taking time. to talk to me again. I definitely wanted. to circle back on something because we. ended up our last conversation talking. about um Vice President Vance, but I. also wanted to ask you about somebody. else that you were close to, and that's. Don Jr., the president's son. >> Uh he supported your new media venture. after you left Fox. So, I'm wondering. [clears throat] what your relationship.

is now considering your comments about. his father. Have you talked about it? Are you still in touch? >> I've known Don for a long time. We share. a common love of the outdoors and we. don't actually talk a lot about. politics. We talk mostly about hunting. and fishing and so I have not spoken to. him about um the war in Iran and. probably won't but uh you know I think. his views on that are pretty pretty. wellnown. >> So you're still in touch in other words. >> Yeah, absolutely. And I and I expect to. be. I mean Don's a friend of mine and a.

and a really good guy but our. relationship is not political uh at all. really. I in fact I I don't remember the. last time I talked about politics. >> Yeah. I mean I guess it brings me to. this wider issue about how you critique. um the president. You're always quite. careful to say how much you like him. personally. >> Mhm. >> Are you worried about alienating his. base though? Because aren't they some of. the same people who tune in to your. show? >> Well, I don't think I'm careful about. saying it. I want to be honest about. saying it. I mean, you know, in part.

because I was out promoting Trump, you. know, pretty aggressively for a long. time. As for his base, I mean, I don't. have a base. I'm not a candidate for. office and don't plan to be. >> You have an audience. >> We've seen. >> We do have an audience. Yeah. And it's. grown. And, you know, it's not exactly. clear who [snorts] that is. I mean, you. I get these readouts from our tech guys. Well, we have, you know, new people. watch. Well, who are they? You know, it's like you don't really know. Um, but, you know, this war is unpopular.

The idea of sending Americans over to. risk their lives to regime change in. another part of the world is itself. unpopular whether it's in Iran or any. other country. So I I mean I think I'm. on the side of the majority in this. country and maybe the numbers reflect. that, but I'm I'm you know I don't I. don't [snorts] really think about that. when I'm thinking through what we talk. about who I interview. >> cuz I I mean you when you do look at. your page on YouTube, you do definitely. see that the numbers are much bigger.

when you talk about the war in Iran. And. so, >> well, we're in a war with Iran and it's. the biggest thing that's happened in my. lifetime and the potential consequences. include nuclear war and so it's an. inherently big deal and it's being. ignored or downplayed by most of the. rest of the media. So, I think we. benefit from taking it seriously, but. it's inherently serious. That that's my. view of it and so I would talk about it. no matter. who watched or didn't because I think. it's that it's that important.

One more question about the president. Your comments um have clearly gotten. under his skin. I mean, he's posted long. screeds on Truth Social about you. >> and you know to refer again to those. texts that came out um in the Fox News. Dominion Legal Fight. There was one from. you saying that Trump is good at. destroying things and you wrote. >> he's the undisputed world champion of. that. He could easily destroy us if we. play it wrong. I mean, do you worry. about him destroying you now? He's got a. lot of power.

I don't worry about him destroying me. I. mean, I'm [snorts] turn 57 next month. and my kids are grown. I mean, there's. not really what can you do to me. I. don't work for anybody. And I'm not that. worried about my own life anyway. But he. does have the capacity to destroy. And I. do think that it's a binary. You're. either creating or destroying in this. life. And I think he has proved through. the course of his life better at. destroying than at creating. I mean, he's created some, but I, you know, I. have a strong preference for creation.

over destruction. And um, you know, he. he's look, one of the reasons that I. appreciated Trump from day one, in. addition to always enjoying his company. and finding him hilarious, is because he. was very good at assailing the. foundations of rotten structures. And I. knew that they were rotten because I am. from Washington and I knew those. institutions well. And I knew that. despite, you know, how they described. themselves, they were basically just. fatuous and long outdated and probably. deserve to be taken down like a house.

with rotten sills. And Trump was great. at exposing that and and taking them. down. You know, USAD, I as someone from. DC, I knew a lot about USA ID and I. thought I was why are we doing this? You. know, this is counterproductive to. American interests and Trump just went. in there and took it out and and I like. that. But that is the first step. Of. course, that can't be the end stage. The. first step is you you scrape the old. property, then you build something new. and better and beautiful, and we haven't. gotten to that part of the program, and.

it's not even really being promised at. this point, which is troubling. >> Do you see a path towards supporting him. again? I mean, if he suddenly. took actions that you agreed with, um, do you see yourself [snorts] coming back. into the fold? I'd support anybody who. made life in the United States better. Of course, it's not it's absolutely not. personal. And that's part of what I hope. to convey by always adding the caveat, but I like Trump cuz it's not personal.

Um, so I would always support any, and I. mean literally anybody, no matter how. unlikely the person, no matter how much. I disagreed with his previous policies. or reviled him as a man or whatever, it. almost doesn't matter. If someone's. doing a good thing, I want to be honest. enough to say, "God bless you for doing. that, and I support that thing." So, it's it's really about what a person is. doing. It's it's about the fruit rather. than the perception. You you make this.

country better. I don't care who you. are, I will cheer you on cuz I live here. and I want the country to get better. It's not getting better. Now, it's very. hard for me to imagine any scenario in. which we look back on the last 2 months, this war with Iran, and say that really. made us more prosperous, safer, happier, united our country. It's just I just. can't imagine that. But then, you know, a lot of things I haven't been able to. imagine. So if that happens, I will be. the very first person to say, "Well, I. was completely wrong about that and I'm.

sorry.". >> And I'm grateful that I was wrong and I. and I will really mean it because I I'm. not again I I don't have any partisan. agenda at all. The Republican party. could not be more repulsive to me. The. Democratic party, same thing. So I I. just am in this weird non-aligned place. and it's it's totally sincere. Like I. think the parties and I'm saying this on. the basis of a lot of knowledge are. rotten beyond repair or at least simple. repairs. >> Can you imagine creating a new party? I.

mean can you imagine there being a a. different. um party that would. more closely align to your views and. perhaps others? I mean if you're saying. that these parties are rotten beyond. repair, what are you proposing if anything? Let. let me just say just to be more precise. Nothing is rotten beyond repair. Repairs. are always possible. You know, people. said after getting p I meant it's a it's. a cliche which I should have used on. those grounds. Rotten beyond remodeling.

I would say. >> this can't you know you can't just put a. new coat of paint or fresh drywall on. these structures because they are ridden. with rot. Okay. So I would like to see. them repaired. That would be the. simplest solution. I don't think that's. likely to happen. So, of course, I would. be thrilled to see the rise of a party. that represented the majority of. Americans, at least by intent. Look, it's not even a question of, you know, are you for this tax rate? Are you for. that tax rate? It's a question of.

orientation. Are you going to have a. political party whose number one aim is. helping the people who put it in power, helping the citizens of the United. States? And neither party can say that. honestly because neither party is very. interested in its own citizens. Democratic part is much more interested. in importing new non-citizens, making. them citizens and making reliable voters. out of them. And the Republican party is. much more interested in, I don't know, fighting wars for a foreign country. So. whatever you think of those aims, neither one is focused on the needs of.

Americans. And I think somebody should be in a. representative democracy. Like there. should be a party that is speaking for. most people. Am I going to build it? Absolutely not. I'm not a politician, but I would support it as with whatever. I had, I would support it. >> And who do you imagine being the head of. that party? >> I have literally no idea. >> So, could it be someone on the left? >> Well, it could be anybody. I'm not even. sure what the left means at this point. I mean, I have some very good friends on. the left. Now, they're not conventional.

westside liberals, you know? They're not. they don't have signs in this house. we. believe in science. Like the sort of. dopey lifestyle liberalism of my. childhood, like I think that's kind of. played out. Like angry ladies telling. you to put your mask on. Like, you know, no one wants that. But I have some. sincere left-wing friends who have a. critique of economics and foreign policy. that I agree with completely or or. substantially agree with, for sure. >> One last question on this. Um, obviously. you're in Maine. Graham Platner is a.

Democrat who is vying to be the Senate. candidate. Um, is that someone that you. whose ideas you are interested in at. all? >> I I mean I certainly appreciate his. foreign policy views, you know, a lot. And uh I I appreciate. how different they are from everybody. else's in his party. I haven't met him. um and I I plan to meet him. Um I don't. know a lot about his other views. You. know, I think at this point with AI.

posed to destroy some high percentage of. American jobs, there's really no. justification for immigration of any. kind into the United States. You can't. say, well, we're going to, you know, 30%. of lawyers are going to be out of work. and this percentage of software coders. or accountants or, you know, any other. sort of support a family type job. They're all going to evaporate because. of this new technology. But we have a. bunch of new H-1B people we'd like you. to meet. That's just cruelty both to and.

most important to American citizens but. also to the immigrant. Like what are we. doing? So anybody who's for diluting our. labor pool with foreign labor is you. know clearly not acting in the interest. of the country and I couldn't support. anyone like that. But you know we the. prerequisite to having a rational. conversation about immigration is. dracializing it. Okay. It's not not. everything is about race. >> I am. So. >> the truth is Sorry.

>> No, no. I was finish your thought and. then I was going to jump in. >> Well, just. we are looking at the elimination of. some very large unspecified number of. American jobs due to technology. >> and there are going to be a lot of. unemployed people including a lot of. unemployed immigrants in this country. and you have the potential for. disunityity and and actual disruption, you know, rupture of the social fabric. to the extent it still exists. And so. you have to shut down immigration uh. right now. >> I'm glad you brought up immigration.

because I was thinking about what you. said in our last conversation about. race. And I'm going to quote you here. You said most of the debates about race, ethnicity, religion, to some extent. immigration are less resonant long-term. than debates about economics. And you. said race is thrown up as a distraction. >> And you are someone who has spent a lot. of time though talking about those. issues. You know, you've denigrated. immigrants, saying that they make our. country poorer and dirtier and more. divided, and you've long warned that.

immigrants are going to replace what you. call legacy Americans. Um, >> well, they have. The overwhelming. majority of new jobs in the last 5 years. have gone to immigrants, not Americans. So, >> but a debate actually. >> But yeah, but you you called Iraqis semi. literate um primitive monkeys. I mean, you've used language that many. >> What year did I say that? Do you know? Um, I think it was in 2018. Um, >> oh, I did not say that in 2018. >> Oh, no. 2008. I'm so sorry. Yeah, 2008. So, 2008, right? Yeah.

>> So, the point is I'm a racist. Is that. >> No, no, the point is, were you part of. the distraction? >> The question is, were you part of the. distraction? Because you were using. those, you know, talking about those. issues quite a lot. >> I wasn't actually talking about those. issues quite a lot. Um, but I I would. say I have been involved in many. distractions, including that. I'm not. saying race is immaterial. Race is. important. Race is real. It's not a. social construct. It's a biological. reality. There are racial differences, real racial differences. They're much.

smaller than gender differences, but. they're still real. Um, but my point was. the one that I made initially, which is for most Americans, people who. are born here, black, white, Hispanic, Asian, doesn't matter of any race, the. real concerns are economic. And I do. think that. certain forces, the banks, people. loaning the money have a real incentive. to ferment disscent within the. population against each other. fight.

amongst yourselves while we continue to. charge you 25% interest on your credit. card. And as I said when we first. discussed this, I noticed this after. Occupy Wall Street, which was like the. very first left-wing movement that I. thought, hm, I kind of kind of like the. the theme here. I mean, I wasn't, you. know, whatever. I'm not camping out on. the sidewalk in front of JP Morgan, but. the idea that you could have a global. financial crisis and no one responsible. for it goes to jail and the only people. who suffer are the people who took the.

loans, not the ones who issued the. loans. I felt like that's just not fair. And so I supported the idea of holding. the creditors accountable for their. crimes and none ever were held. accountable by Bush or Obama as you. know. And then I noticed, and this is. measurable actually by Alexa's search of. New York Times stories, that the term. racist, racism, white supremacy, those. exploded in New York Times stories and. not just the New York Times, but the. rest of the legacy media. And my. interpretation of this fact is that the.

media was used to distract the. population with racial. >> part of the media. >> Talk about well, I've already I've. already said I have been part of many. distractions. took me a long time to. recognize this. >> and I'm trying to be honest about it. now. Now again, there's been an enormous. amount particularly in the New York. Times, but not just of anti-white hate, which is like totally normalized across. the American media. Whiteness is bad,

white supremacy is evil, every other. kind of ethnic awareness is great and. celebrated, but white ethnic awareness. is Nazism, etc., etc. this absurd and. pretty malicious double standard. And. that's annoying, and I've noted it many, many times. But ultimately, what I'm. saying is that people care about their. economic fortunes and their ability to. pay their bills and secure a. >> better life for their kids. And those. things are way more important to most.

Americans I have met than anything. related to race. And that's why all the. stuff about whiteness being bad, which. is like an outrageous slur if you think. about it, all of that, in my opinion, was designed. as a distraction from the fact that the. American economy was becoming ever more. pyramid-shaped, ever more lopsided, ever. more. basically ever less middle class. The. middle class was no longer the majority. after 2015. That was not even noted in.

most publications. And like that's a. tragedy. and no one even said anything. about it. Instead, it was just like. white people hate black people, black. people hate white people. I, you know, we got played. That's my view. >> You brought up Occupy Wall Street and. your affinity with that. And you said in. our previous interview, the future that. I imagine is not a future in which we're. yelling at each other about race. It's a. future in which people are legitimately. revolutionary, maybe even violent on the. basis of thwarted economic opportunity. And it made me wonder, do you believe.

capitalism is an evil system? a. necessary evil, something else. And and also, what do you mean about. legitimately revolutionary? >> Well, I certainly didn't mean to endorse. violence. I can't imagine I would ever I. would never say that intentionally. I'm. amazed that you have a tape of me saying. that and I just want to disavow it. I'm. not for violence, period. >> Okay? >> It's against my religion. And so, I just. want to be very, very clear that I'm. totally opposed to violence. What I mean.

is the current system um and I don't. know what you would call our economic. system. Um and I'm often told it's free. market capitalism. It doesn't bear any. resemblance to what I thought free. market capitalism was. I'm not sure the. name is important except as a way to. mislead and bully people into being. quiet about it. But any economic system. in which you know the overwhelming. majority of the rewards go to an ever. shrinking number of people or or.

proportion of people is a doomed system. because it makes people revolutionary. I. saw this in Venezuela which I visited as. a child. It was a prosperous kind of. first world country. beautiful country. actually. >> And then it of course it proceeded along. the path we're on and the resentment. built and you had this very volatile. combination of electoral politics, a. democracy. and you know an economic oligarchy and. those two don't work well together and.

you had a a left-wing populist take over. Hugo Chavez and and the results are are. now well known. So, I don't know what. you call this, but it's not working and. it's making for a very volatile country. You know, people have to own things. They have to be vested in the country in. order to dradicalize them. But when. people own nothing, they've got nothing. to lose. I mean, these are very obvious. observations. >> Two last questions.

Um, you can dispute the premise, which I'm. sure you will. [laughter]. I don't know that I will, >> but I want to preempt it anyway, just. because [laughter] I think in our in our. brief time together, >> preparing me. [laughter]. >> In our brief time together, I've I feel. like I've I've uh I've come to come to. understand a bit about you. All right. Um I'd say two of the most seinal events. in your professional life were one, the. Iraq war, and to the election of Donald.

Trump. [snorts] That's the premise. You. were for both of them. Now you say that they were both. mistakes. So I guess why should anyone. after that track record listen to you? Well, >> people probably won't, you know. Um, >> but has it caused some self-reflection. about. >> Oh, has it caused Well, I I admitted it. So, of course, it has caused a lot of. self-reflection. And I wouldn't say, by. the way, that the 2016 election of. Donald Trump was a mistake. I I didn't.

mean to suggest that. I. >> I was addressing this last year and like. what what happened to the to the. campaign promises that a lot of us. repeated enthusiastically and thought. were real. >> But if you're saying Donald Trump could. lead this country to a nuclear war, which is essentially what you said could. happen, then how could the 2016 election. of Donald Trump not have been something. that you regret? I mean, those two. things. I mean, if I was going to vote.

for someone who might lead us to a. nuclear holocaust, I would perhaps. reconsider my my my vote. >> Well, I don't know. I don't know if if. you remember well, but that was that. year was a choice between the lady who. killed Gaddafi for no reason and turned. Libya into a gaping wound, which it. remains, for no reason, and then laughed. about it. and a guy who said the Iraq. war was a mistake. So for me that was a.

not even a close call. >> I mean Hillary Clinton um particularly. [snorts] on foreign policy questions was. a grotesque neocon from my perspective. So I don't regret that. Um I'm grateful. that he won in 2016. Uh my only point. once again was he campaigned against the. things he's now doing a year and a half. ago. So, I I just apologized for. repeating those campaign slogans as if. they were true. I thought they were.

true. They turned out not to be true. And I feel bad about that. You know, [snorts] I'm often wrong. I say that and. I mean it. It's I'm not It's not a pose. And I I do think last thing I'll say is. I think if you force yourself to admit. you're wrong, and I always force my four. children to admit they were wrong. I. didn't do a lot of spanking. The. punishment I meed out was forcing them. to admit that they had done something. wrong. That's enough. Usually, I think. if you do that, it makes you wiser over. time and you're less likely.

It doesn't mean you're not going to make. mistakes. I will make many mistakes. going forward, I assume, but it you're. less likely to fall for things once. you've apologized the first time. And. the thing that I noticed and that drove. me so crazy about Washington that I. finally left was the the cyclical nature. of bad decision-making. They wouldn't. just make bad decisions again and again. They would make the same bad decisions. again and again and again based on the. same faulty assumptions and they could.

do that because no one was ever held to. account for any failure or disaster. ever. The only people who were ever. punished were the people who complained. about it. And I watched that and it. drove me again, it drove me nuts and I. just don't want to add to that. I don't. want to be part of that at all. For all. my faults, I don't want to be part of. that. So that's it. I'm not running for. anything. And if you know people think. I'm not credible because I changed my. mind about the Iraq war or because I was. shocked that Trump launched a war he. said he wouldn't launch. Yeah, I get it.

I understand why people would feel that. way. You know, I'm not mad about it. >> This is my um last question. It's a. personal one. >> You know, I I talked to a lot of people. left and right about you. A lot of them. used to be your friends. [laughter]. >> I mean, or they said they were close to. you or spent time with you. They're all. mad at me now. >> Well, they've also they they al say that. you've changed. Um some say you've sort. of become untethered from reality. Um.

and the question all of them had was. what happened to Tucker Carlson? And it's something that I've heard. echoed a lot. You're an object [snorts]. of a lot of fascination, continuing. interest. You are at the center of a lot. of our cultural conversations. And I. would and I wonder how you would answer. that question. >> Well, I marvel at it and I mean this. sincerely. I don't find myself very. interesting at all. I feel like I'm as. transparent as I can be. So the idea.

that I've changed, well, yeah, I hope. so. America's changed a lot. And if you. still think that making the world better. is as simple as sending aircraft. carriers to a foreign country, if you. think the way to improve discourse is by. banning words, if you think the vax is safe and. effective, I you know, I don't know what. to tell you. Like, have you not been. paying attention? Apparently not. Or. maybe you're just resistant to the. conclusions. But it's really important.

if you advocate for something to watch, to stay patient, and see how it winds. up. And if you spend a lot of time. telling people this is true, and then. you find out it's not true, you have an. obligation to say, "I'm sorry. I told. you that was true, but it turns OUT IT'S. NOT safe and effective, and regime. change isn't that simple, and no, speech. codes don't work," or whatever you were. advocating for. So, yeah, of course, I've changed. I mean the changes that.

have taken place in this country since. August of 1991 when I entered the. workforce. are bewildering to me. I mean so much. has changed. So many of my assumptions. have been blown up just evaporated. um under the pressure of reality that if. I still clung to those. that would be shameful that would be. dishonest and I don't want to be that. Tucker Carlson, this has been so.

interesting. Thank you so much for your. [laughter] time. >> Thank you. Thank you for having me. I. appreciate it. >> After these interviews, we reached out. to Carlson's representative to get. clarity on his claims that Senator Ted. Cruz and Ambassador Mike Huckabe have. advocated for the murder of children and. other innocent civilians. She responded. in an email, quote, Gaza. When asked for. comment, Huckabe replied that quote, "No. sane person advocates for the murder of. children or civilians and called the. allegation quote sick and evil." Cruz.

replied that we should spend our time. quote actually covering people who still. matter. We also reached out to Shawn. Hannity who denied that he pressured. President Trump to go to war with Iran. Mark [music] Levvin denied this as well. and both Levvin and Laura Loomer denied. that they had ever been out to get Vice. President J. D. Vance. We also reached. out to Rupert Murdoch and Miriam. Adlesen, but they did not respond to our. request for comment. [music]. >> I'm Lulu Garcia Navaro.

>> and I'm David Maresy, >> and we're the hosts of the Interview, an. audio [music] and video podcast from the. New York Times. >> Every week, we interview fascinating and. influential people from all walks. [music] of life. >> Subscribe to our YouTube channel so. you'll never miss an episode. >> [music].