The Moment Simon Cowell Learned About Liam Payne’s Death | The Interview

[music]. This is the interview. I'm Lulu Garcia. Navaro and this week I'm in England to. talk [music] to Simon Cowell. >> Is that allowed on camera or not? >> Oh, you to [music] vape. Yeah. >> Between American Idol, X Factor, America's Got [music] Talent. He's. probably best known as a TV competition. judge who, let's [music] face it, could. often be pretty harsh. >> Girls, you sounded like three cats being. dragged up the motorway. You didn't sing. a single note in tune. I think you're.

possibly the worst singer in the world. >> But the shows also cemented Cow's. reputation as a star maker. [music] Cal. formed One Direction, the band that. included Liam Payne and Harry Styles on. XFactor. Now K's got a new documentary. show on Netflix [music] where he's. trying to make another hit boy band. [music and singing]. >> In a way, it's Cowell going [music] back. to his roots as a record company talent.

scout. And as he told me, he [music]. still feels he has something left to. prove. So here's my conversation with. Simon Cal. >> [music]. >> All right. Are we Are we ready to go? Sure. >> We're good. All right. Um, I want to. start um by telling you that I was in LA. this past spring uh for a family. vacation and we went to an America's Got. Talent taping. And um I have two things.

to note about that experience. Uh first. the thing that occurred to me is the. power of booing, the power of the boo. You know applauding and cheering are. really really fun. But um what was also. really great is to boo a judge and. [laughter] we booed you very very. energetically. >> You included. >> Yeah, me included. My daughter, we were. [laughter] very invested in booing you. >> And I just wonder what it's like being. on the other side of that.

>> It makes me laugh to be honest with you. I mean, it genuinely makes me laugh. because it's like they can boo, you. know, you like crazy and then in the. break you just turn around and go, "How. you doing?" And everyone's like friendly. again. But in that moment, they're like. really, like you said, invested. And I. think that's that's the cool thing about. having an audience behind you because I. always say to the producer, I can feel. when something's going good or bad by. the energy behind me. But to your point,

I think it's good. We actually try and. encourage it, which is look, if you if. you're really unhappy with this, then. tell us. I mean, seriously, tell us. I. you know, I don't care. >> Yeah. Um I mean, and the second thing. you just touched on that occurred to me. while I was watching you, you were the. only judge uh turning around and. actually engaging with the audience in. between takes. And you know, in reading. about you, I read that your dad always. told you when you were really young how. important it is to make people feel.

important. >> Yeah. >> Um, and I was wondering if you're still. taking that advice to heart. >> Yeah, very much so. Yeah. I mean, you. know, from the minute you walk I walk. into like the set, I have, you know, I. I'm I think because of what my dad said. years ago, it really stuck in my mind. that you have to be aware of genuine. literally every single person who's. around you, you know, whether they're. security, whether whoever they are and. obviously the without the audience there. or watching, then you don't get paid.

So, you got to be nice to them. And I. say this to all my artists, you know, I. work with, you know, which is if you. ever lose sight of that, if you start. complaining about priv, you know, privacy, photographs, autographs, then. honestly, you're in the wrong job. because the minute you put a song out or. you go on TV or you or you make a movie, whatever, then of course your life is. going to change. But ironically, the. audience are paying for your salary. So.

you you can't not talk to them or be. nice to them. >> You know, speaking of your dad, he was. uh an executive at EMI, the big record. label and music publishing company. Um. and his job though was to manage real. estate. He wasn't actually um a. creative, so to speak. What did he think. you'd become when when when uh you were. young? What did he hope for you? It was so random what they thought I.

could do because I was so terrible at. school. I just didn't like it. I found. it boring. I did everything I could to. get out of it. I wanted to leave at 16. and I did. I think I left on my 16th. birthday cuz I just I thought I'm I'm. just not nothing's going nothing's. digesting here. And and they were. concerned because I I didn't I I didn't. pass any of my exams. So they. [laughter] we they just tried to get me. a job. Um so my dad because like you.

said he was in property, he took me up. to one of these places up in the north. of England where they teach you to. become a builder. >> And so we went on this kind of huge. building site, you know, with diggers. and everything. And I thought, well, this looks fun. And then I had the. second part of the interview where they. told told me what I had to learn about. maths and this and that and I thought, okay, well, forget that. And then my mom. thought I should work for the civil. service for some reason. And I had this.

really terrible, terrible job interview, which was worse than being at school. And then eventually um a job came up as. a runner uh at L Street Studios which. was also a film you know it was a film. studio TV studios and this was actually. a TV show. >> So I I managed to get a job for 3 months. as a runner and I actually just loved it. from the minute I started. I mean you. literally do run basically for everyone. uh whatever they ask you to do you run.

>> and I loved it. I absolutely loved it. You eventually end up going into the. music industry. >> Yeah. >> Um doing ANR, which is basically being a. talent scout. What was it about the. music industry that you found compelling. at that point? What what why did you. think that this was a place that you. could actually kind of make your way? >> Well, uh I made a decision eventually. just to get into TV musical film. So, I. had. >> the runner job. I did actually try and.

get a job as a runner on The Shining, which they were making. And for some. reason, Stanley Kubby, don't ask me why, would never hire runners. So, it must. been some weird superstition or. something. So, I thought, okay. And then. I applied to to to be in the post room. at a TV company and got turned down. And. I'm like, how can you turn someone down. to be in the mail room? I mean, at 17 or. something, but they did. And then. fortunately my mom I think she just. wrote to EMI and said uh my son wants to.

be in the music business. And I again. you had to go for a proper job. interview. You know the guy it was. called personnel in those days. The guy. had a star on his door. I remember that. that and and it was really cool because. it wasn't just you know uh you got to. deliver mail. It was like you know what. are your ambitions? Why do you want to. be here? Blah blah blah. And I said, I. really actually want to be in the music. business. I don't know what yet, but I. just love music. So, this is just a, you.

know, I hope I get that opportunity and. I really will work hard. And when I got. the news I got the job, it was like, yeah, brilliant. >> And you were how old? >> I must have been then about 18, 19, I. guess. >> You eventually work your way up. And um. one of the things. that you become pretty astute at is. developing what is a broad view of what.

is culturally relevant back then. I mean. I read a quote that you boasted that. you'd figure out what was going on not. by going to dingy shows and basements. but by reading the sun which is of. course the storyried British tabloid. >> Yeah. And your first success came with. the singer Senita. Yeah. >> In the mid1 1980s. >> And I want to ask you about something in. particular because you were promoting. her music initially. >> um by going to gay clubs and trying to.

get it played there. >> I mean what did you understand about who. were the real cultural taste makers that. perhaps other people weren't. understanding? >> That's a good question. So when I. uh worked with Senita, I thought she's. going to become a gay icon. I could I. could see that. So we've got to find her. a record that is a crossover record that. we can break from the gay clubs. >> because you know a lot of clubs we would.

go to that you know some would they just. didn't get it right. So I kind of. thought this is fun you know. So I used. to take white labels acetates, you know, which you know, basically a vinyl. record, but um and go into the DJ booth. and just watch the reaction as the. record was played. And it was really. interesting cuz that gave me more. feedback than anything else uh as to. whether this record, you know, we were. on the right track or not. And they.

loved this first record, although I just. couldn't get it on radio. And there was. a record I heard actually it was. Senita's mom actually uh uh who recorded. a song called So many men. >> So many [singing]. little time. >> Yeah. So Little Time. It's a brilliant. song. All these songs were coming around. at the same time. And I remember. thinking. >> this is this is going to be big. >> and we've just got to just jump on this. wave somehow and use the clubs to to get.

this record into the top 40. because if. I could get the record in the top 40, then radio were forced to play it, >> you know, on the on the national. countdown. So, it eventually gone in the. top 40 and then it got played. and then more radio stations played and. then eventually it went, I don't know, number two or something. >> So, there's two things about this story. um that are interesting. The first is. you like to do an end run around. gatekeepers clearly.

And the second thing I think about the. story is that you know you ended up. becoming. well known for then sign signing acts. that you know a lot of people saw as. gimmicky. you know, you signed the Power. Rangers, Wrestlemania, you made music, you know, um, from that and you have. what I think is this sort of bottom up. approach to the business, um, which is. let's see what's popular and then. elevate it. Where do you think that that.

came from, that understanding of, you. know, let's take what's popular, not be. precious about it, and and try and put. it out into the world? Well, um, all I. was thinking was, I've just got to keep. I've got to keep a job. >> Got to keep the lights on. >> I've got to keep the lights on. Exactly. Yeah. Uh, I've got to get paid. >> and I know what it feels like to be. broke cuz I was broke and I don't I. didn't want to go back there again. So, I. >> mean, you lost your apartment at a. certain point. You lost I mean. everything. Your car you had to move in.

with your parents again. >> Yeah. Yeah. Thank god my parents were. very understanding and they were like. well just use this is a lesson Simon you. know credit cards you got to pay back. mortgages you got to pay back so you. know everything was kind of borrowed so. um I I did you know I lost everything. went back did a deal with a bank uh got. a loan got a label deal and at that. point I just thought right I don't want. to go back to there again so I'm going.

to do whatever ever I can to sell. records knowing it's the music business. because we did used to go to these ANR. meetings and a lot of the guys the ANR. people would have a job cuz they thought. they were cooler than everybody else. Actually, a lot of them were just. idiots. Uh they were they they thought. they were cool. They were just guessing. And if you dare to play something you. they didn't like you were like the you. know they they used to like sneer at me.

laugh at me. I mean I remember once you. know playing as you said that Power. Rangers record because my boss at the. time said look what's we need to look at. our last quarter. Who's got any hits? So. I held my hand up and I said well just s. the Power Rangers. Snigger, snigger, snigger. And I've signed these two. puppets. and and so she actually went to this. PowerPoint presentation, you know, this. whiteboard and wrote zero, >> i.e. zero revenue without hearing them.

So I thought, well, I'll just get on. with it myself. >> But you understood something about the. business, which is IP from things that. aren't necessarily in music. Um, it. could translate, it could be valuable, it could be sellable. people would like. it. >> Yeah. With these IPs, when I knew that. um they'd sold out Wembley Stadium, the. wrestlers in 30 seconds, that's 80,000. seats, you know, I I just went, "Well,

whoever loves wrestling, there's a lot. of music, you know, on these shows. I. think they're going to buy the record.". >> But I actually like those records. myself. So, I just thought they're. catchy, they're fun, you don't take it. too seriously, but more importantly that. we were selling millions and millions of. records. your first sort of huge hit. happens with the Irish boy band Westife.

and um you see them for the first time, you turn them down um and you tell their. sort of manager or the the person who. was heading the band that you didn't. like them because some of the boys. weren't very good-looking and they told. they took the they took the note, they. get rid of some of the boys. Um and then. when you saw them again, you signed. them. And I'm just wondering. when you're when you're looking at a. band like that back then. Um, and just. in general, are looks more important.

than talent? >> Well, the first time I saw the boys, it. was a mess. They there was no chemistry. They didn't look right together. I could. just it it didn't excite me. It was just. that. And then the second time I saw. them, the manager had styled them. better, >> had replaced them. within 30 seconds, truthfully, I just turned around to him. and I said, "I don't need to hear. anymore. We'll just do the deal. tomorrow." And we did.

>> And they can really sing, a couple of. them in particular. >> So my job now is to find them hits. It. was simple as that. >> Um, and that's when the relationship, you know, I was developing with. songwriters and producers actually was. probably more important than anything. else. no matter how good the idea is, the song is probably the most important. factor in all of this. >> So, when I heard when we got West Life. together, I heard a rumor that there was.

a song. uh that somebody else was going to. record and someone told me this song is. a killer song. And so, I called up the. two writers and I said, "Um, hey, you've. written this song. Will you come over?". It play me the demo and it's it's a. no-brainer. [music]. >> And I said, "I want the song. We we.

promised it to someone else." And I. actually locked the door. >> You what? >> I locked them in my office. And I said, "You're not leaving until [laughter]. we do a deal.". >> That's a tactic. >> Yeah. Uh I just And they looked at me. like, "You're mad?" And I'm not mad. you'll have a bigger hit with these boys. than the other artist. >> because these are better singers. >> All right. Um, we've been talking about. all your successes. Um, but you've also had plenty of flops and.

a few missed opportunities during this. particular period. >> The band Take That um obviously was a. big one. And then Kylie Mano also was. one that sort of got away. Was that your. biggest regret, do you think? >> Uh, well, I mean, my biggest regret in terms. of missing out was probably the Spice. Girls. Um, they they were mentioned in. an ANR meeting. They were called Spice. then.

>> Uh, and, uh, somebody said, um, we're. hearing about this band called Spice. Because they were they were literally. turning up at all the labels and there. was a buzz about them. Two of the ANR. guys held their hands up and said, "We're on it. I'm on it. So, I'm. thinking, okay, I'm too late. Um, and. then by chance, a few weeks later, I. went to a meeting at the people who used. to promote our records, and the girls. happened to be in a van, and they knew. who I was. I don't know why or how, but.

they just did. And they grab dragged me. into the van and played me the demo of. Wannabe. [music]. And I'm like, "Oh my god, they're going. to be huge." And got in my car, got back. to the office, called the manager, and I. said, "If they haven't signed a deal, I'll double whatever you've been. offered." He said, "We signed. yesterday." Now, I don't know whether. that was true or not, but that was.

really, really hard. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. When I saw that blow up, I'm like, "God.". So, um, but every time that, you know, something like that happens, weirdly, it. just makes you more determined, I think. >> So, let's fast forward a little bit to. American Idol. reading your. autobiography, one of the things that. sort of jumped out at me is that you. really struggled with how the public was.

initially perceiving you, you know, that. bluntness that you brought to the show. that you really pushed to sort of. incorporate. Um, once it became the mega. hit that it became, you started reading. the feedback and it caused you to kind. of doubt yourself and later be nicer on. the show for a little bit, which I don't. remember this period, by the way. I. don't think um you were ever. particularly nice on the show, [laughter] but but um but you sort of. clocked that it made the show seem. inauthentic. >> I wasn't trying to be a dick on purpose.

All I wanted with these shows was to. find successful artists to sign to the. label. So when all these people were. coming in and they couldn't sing, you. know, like we used to do off camera, I. would be like when I used to do. auditions and someone would come in and. they can't sing. We would say after 10. seconds you can't sing. Not you're going. to be brilliant and everything else. So, I was frustrated at the beginning cuz I. thought if we don't find someone good at.

the end of these shows, they're not. going to get recommissioned. >> Well, there are a lot of Simon Cal. insult compilations um from American. Idol online. Um you'll be happy to know. Um you told singers they'd invented a. new form of torture. You made some fat. jokes. You had a common one that they. [laughter] were the worst singer in. America. >> Lulu, do we have to go through this? >> Yes, we have to go through it. Um, and. then the camera would sort of cut to.

people looking absolutely crushed. I. mean, what is the line, do you think, between bluntness and humiliation? [sighs and gasps]. >> I've got to be honest with you, that's. why I did change over time. I mean, I. did realize I've probably gone too far. and I don't need to be Look, I was. honestly I was just I was frustrated. I. didn't particularly like I still don't. like audition days cuz they're long and.

boring. I would get fed up. And of. course, you know, out of a hundred nice. comments, what are they going to use? They're always gonna use, you know, me. being in a bad mood. I got that. >> What can I say? I'm sorry. >> What are you apologizing for exactly? >> Well, just being a dick, [clears throat]. you know. Um, >> but it also made good TV and it made you. into a integral part of. what made that show work.

>> Yeah. Yeah. That was then. Um, I'm not proud of it. Let's put it that. way. I don't look at this. I look, I. never look at this stuff on online or. anything, you know. I'm not someone who. particularly wants to see myself on. camera. So, when I hear about these. clips, I'm like, "Oh, god.". But then again, the upside is, I. suppose, with these clips is that uh it.

made the shows really popular worldwide. >> It also launched uh the career of Ryan. Serest. And I'll be honest, I am. mystified by how he is so ubiquitous and. so popular and I wanted you to be able. to explain it. >> I can't really answer that one if I'm. being honest with you. He does work. hard. >> Okay. >> Okay. He. >> a lot of people work hard. >> Yeah. Um I don't know actually. Um. I he was very very ambitious. Um.

and um. look, I don't follow his career if I'm. being honest with you. So I don't know. what he's done or doing. You know, we. rarely talk now if I'm being honest with. you. Um I always knew with Ryan it was. he was like very steely about, you know, his career. wanting to be famous. I mean this. massive massive desire about being.

you know very famous. Um so. >> so yeah. >> eventually of course you leave Idol to. launch XFactor in the US um which was. your own project. Uh and you recruited. Britney Spears to be a judge on the. show. >> Yeah. [snorts] and you spoke multiple. times with her to get her to agree to. that. You know, at the time, you know, she was under a conservatorship. I was wondering what you understood. about her mental state, about what was.

going on around her. >> This is a fascinating story about her. and me and the show because somebody. said Britney would be interested in. working with you. And I'm like, really? And I said, "Well, would she talk to me. on a call?" Because I thought it's never. going to happen. Yes. Friday night 8:00. Fine. She's going to call you. So, I'm. waiting on the dot. She calls and we. spoke for 2 hours. And she was like so.

fun, engaged, passionate, interesting, you know, just really, really wanted to. do it. I think for the right reasons, which was I want to be a kind of a. mentor. I'm like, brilliant. So then I. went, I want a second call cuz maybe. this was a fluke. So we have a second. call, I think two weeks later. It's even. better. I went, wow, whatever I've heard about. her, she is so smart, so nice, so.

friendly. I think we're going to get on. really, really well. Cut to we do a. press launch and Britney's there and she. doesn't look that happy. And I said, "What's the matter?" She said, "I didn't. realize there was going to be so much. press around." And I went, "Well, it is. a press launch." So, I said, "Well, it's kind of a bit too late to say you. don't really want to do the press now.". So, all I remember was there was a big. tent and we were in two golf buggies and.

I had to go right. She was ahead of me. So, as I went right, she just went. straight on and and because she didn't. want to do the press. >> And then on the show, she really. struggled with saying no to people. >> Did just didn't like it. >> So, the first day I sat with her and I. said, "Look, there's two choices. If you. really don't want to do this, I'll get. you out. I'll get you out of it. I. really will. Uh or you've got to.

understand I can't put 200 people in the. final. It's just not going to happen. It. comes down to two which means obviously. we are going to say no to people. Now. I'll say no more than you. Um but that's. what we signed up for. And I got to know. her. when she come over to my house one time. and we just talked and talked and talked. and talked because I really wanted to. get inside her head. Was she happy? Was. she unhappy? She wasn't happy. That's.

what I took away. It was like two. different people. Lulu. >> and it was a shame. >> I mean, she wrote in her memoir that she. absolutely hated doing the show. >> Did she? >> Yeah. >> That's a shame. I did say to the. network, I don't know if she wants to do. it, and if she doesn't, we've got to. give her the option of being able to. leave. No one was forcing her or. pressurizing her. >> And and actually what I she also. mentioned to me how much she didn't like. pop music. she was much more into I. don't know a different kind of music I.

think I don't think she really loved pop. music so I think she probably struggled. a bit with the whole mentoring the. artists um. I mean if I saw her I mean I would I. yeah I would talk to her about that. whole time. >> because it was her choice genuinely. >> your other huge success happens um. around this period said, "Uh, let's talk. about One Direction because you put the.

band together from a group of kids who. auditioned for the X Factor. and I just watched Liam Payne's audition. on X Factor uh when he was 16.". And now [screaming]. you say you're lonely. >> And you give him the standing ovation. and he's got this beautiful smile and. he's so excited about everything. What do you remember about about you.

know them at at the very beginning? >> Well, Liam had auditioned for me when he. was about 14 15. He was very young the. first time. And he got quite, you know, close to making the finals. >> And I remember having to say to him, uh, it's just not your time. However, there's something about you I really. like. Will you come back again? And he came back two years later. So. that second time he came back uh, and he.

nailed it on his audition. >> saying Crimea River. Yeah. Yeah. It was. just that feeling of, you know, we were. talking about the audience. You could. feel it everywhere. and this look on his. face, he was like, "This is brilliant.". Um, and then with the show, because. there's so many people you take through. to the next round and um, for whatever. reason, he and a bunch of others just. didn't do so well in the second part of. the competition.

>> And I remember having to say no to a. bunch of them, including Liam. And I. thought, Christ, having to say no to him. for the second time. Um, and then we. went actually. what if we put him with him with him. with him with him. It took about 20. minutes honestly to make the decision. I. actually remember seeing them walk. towards me and I thought, "God, they. look really good together. They just. something's gelled here and I remember. thinking I had my poker face. I please. God, please God sing. Please God sing.". >> And then and they were great. So, in.

your new show, um you're looking for a. new boy band to launch and in the midst. of filming, um you receive the news of. Liam's death in Argentina in 2024. Can you tell me how you heard and and. then what you did to sort of process the. loss? >> Um I uh one of my um. >> and I know this is painful, so thank. you. >> I mean, but of course we're going to. talk about it. um somebody who works.

with me very close um came into my uh. room. I was up in the north of England. and I could tell on the look of her face. that she was upset and you know she said. that you know sit down and she told me. and it was like wow it's a bit like I. felt when I heard the news about when my. dad passed away you know that you can't. really it's very difficult to put into. words how you feel other than it's just. a shock total shock and a surprise even.

though my dad was in his 80s I was still. really surprised. And obviously with Liam even more. surprised cuz he was so young. And um at. that point you're kind of you're not. really thinking clearly other than I. just remember saying I really need to. speak to his mom and dad. Can you get. them on the phone as soon as possible. please? Um because I know. God I mean you know. as a parent you know what that must have.

you know felt like. And I was I knew his. mom and dad and I wanted to reach out in. that moment, you know, just to say, you. know, how I felt and it was just awful, awful. And, you know, I'd seen him like. a year before in this room, you know, and I remember seeing him walk into this. room and I looked at him and God, you. look amazing, Liam. You know, you look. great. Monson, what have you done? Well, I'm going to the gym and blah blah blah. We talked about his son and you know how.

much it means to be a dad and I was. talking to him about you know there's. more to life than just music you know. you've got to a point in your life where. you've got choice now you you know etc. and I think we were just hung out as. friends that that's why I was so shocked. and surprised when I heard the news you. know. >> you know. since that happened there's been a lot. of reporting on One Direction, what. happened while they were a band, the.

sort of drugs, the alcohol. He, you. know, talked about sort of struggling. >> When we were in the band, the best way. to secure us because of how big it got. was just lock us in our rooms. And of. course, what's in the room? Mini bar. >> Did you know about that at the time? >> A little bit. Uh and we you know there. was stuff you I I never would have. spoken about you know then you know. which was private conversations I had. and advice I tried to give him um which. is what comes with fame you know etc etc.

um but you know like we mean you're. signing a lot of artists and when you. sign an artist you know my role is. essentially get them with the right. production team get the managers and try. and make them successful, but at the. same time, I probably had about 20. artists on my books at the time. And it. is a little bit like they leave the. nest. >> You know, you always say you're.

available as and when you need to be, but you can't follow them everywhere. And um if I could go back in time to. that one day when he was in my house. here, then obviously, you know, you always. think about things like that. What if. I'd said this? What if I'd said that? But you know, there's only so much you. can do with any artist. If you just have. one artist in your life, maybe you can,

you know, but I'm not a manager, which. means my job is to run the label. And. you just hope that they are, first of. all, successful and happy. But when you. sign them, they were kids. And so. it it must be that there is a different. type of relationship that they have with. someone like you who was also a judge. and you know kind of brought them.

together. Is it a complicated role that that kind. of relationship that you have with. someone who is so young? >> It's always complicated to be honest. with you. I don't know whether it's more. complicated when they're young or. someone who's had success then hasn't. had success and comes back and wants a. second chance. I mean, every time it's. different, Lulu, you know, every artist. is different. There's not a pattern you.

can say, you know, you have to work. differently with each artist. Everybody. has the same ambition, which is they. come on our shows or they want to work. with me because their dream is to be. successful. We made these shows because I understood. and still do that there's always someone. out there waiting to be discovered if. you actually look. The chances of. getting well known are just minute.

>> And then like I'm doing now, same thing. Young kids and you ask. yourself, is it a good thing or not? without this show, what I'm doing, would. they be discovered? I don't think so. Is. it something they want to do? Yes. Um, so at the end of the day, you you want people to be successful and. happy, but I. you know, that's kind of what I've you.

you set out to do. >> to sort of um. look at what happened to Liam. You know, for many people it was. a sign of [snorts] how toxic fame can. be. >> Yeah. >> And how hard it is to know at the. beginning. um of your career how it's going to. affect you? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> What is the lesson you take from it? It's very difficult because I don't. honestly know what is harder which is. trying to be famous. or managing your fame. >> Both are equally difficult. but there's obviously something you know. myself I can say this about myself. I. made my own choices. Um uh not every day. has been amazing but I would I I still. would I'm glad I did what I did. you.

know, I just made a decision to do. something different in my life and it. was, you know, it comes obviously with. pressure, lot of pressure, a lot of. stress, but I signed up for it because. obviously there was something inside of. me saying I want to be well known, I. guess. Um, and I would do it all over again. So, your new show, as we mentioned, the. premise is that you're creating a new.

boy band. I've seen you talk um about. how few new worldwide bands have been. launched lately um in the UK, in the. United States, and once I saw that, I. was like, it is actually true. Um what. do you think is going on? >> I don't know. I genuinely don't know. I. I I knew that K-pop was going to be big. I could sort of feel it and I mean. credit to them. I mean they've done an. amazing job. I mean they're like part of.

South Korea's like economy. They're so. huge. So someone has gone there's a. market for bands and they have. absolutely nailed it. >> However, from the UK and America there. hasn't been whether male or female a. breakout band. And in fact, one of my. obviously bond direction or fifth. harmony, you know, boys and girls were. probably the last two that really had a. big impact worldwide.

>> Something that also occurred to me um is. that we're now seeing the sort of. emergence of AI generated music and even. AI musicians. What do you think about. that? I mean, would you ever sign an AI. artist? >> Well, I mean, I guess so. I mean I mean. if I thought uh it would be success they. him her I don't know what you would it. yes it would be successful. Yeah. Um. I'm not thrilled at the prospect if I'm. being honest with you. It's not really.

my thing. I mean that's why I said to. the people we were making the. documentary with. I said I can't explain. to you how exciting it is when you got a. band. It's so compelling and so exciting. when you think it's starting to work and. importantly when they start to believe. it's going to work. >> You know, we all know that it is uh. harder to have your finger on the pulse. as you get older. >> Yeah. >> Uh I say this myself. Um are you worried. about that? because you know you do note. in the show that you're in your 60s.

trying to figure out what teenagers. today want and I have a teenager as as. do you a little younger than a teenager. and it seems like a different you know. generation completely in the way that. they consume things and discover things. >> Well yes I guess let me work this out. I. was in my 50s when you know I had one. direction fifth harmony whatever little. mix I had a lot of bands who were. selling I don't know whether age uh was.

a factor or not I think the biggest. thing really was the amount of time. since my last band to this time and in. between that time K-pop's arrived social. media like you said Tik Tok is. everywhere and we that wasn't really a. huge factor 10. So, so the the change in. 10 years is ginormous. >> and you just have to there's there's. just no guarantee other than I think who.

we've selected are really good. But I. never know until you put the group out. there whether they're going to be. successful or not. You just don't know. And that's part of the buzz, I suppose, not knowing cuz I don't. >> All right. This is perhaps a strange. place to end. Um, but you recently had a. very big pop culture moment when you. were on the Jennifer Hudson show. [laughter]. >> I heard about this. >> You did the spirit tunnel where you walk. down the hall while her staff does a.

little song and dance. Um, >> and it was everywhere, Simon. Uh, and. the comment seemed one, >> they were confused about the way you. were clapping. >> Yeah. and too surprised that you. actually have legs because a lot of. people have only seen you behind a. judge's podium on television. >> You're so right. [laughter]. >> But that is so funny you should ask that. question because it did occur to me. Let's say I had got hit by a bus 6. months ago. What would people know me. for? Well, my job was sitting behind a.

desk with three or four other people. pressing buttons. That's it. And I. thought, it's got to be more than that. I mean, at least I can show that I still. have that kind of work ethic and I. really do love what I do and I'm not. afraid to show it and I walk. >> Okay, but what were you doing with your. hands? >> I don't know. I haven't seen it back. >> Oh, >> tell me. >> There was some weird. >> Well, it was quite embarrassing. I.

didn't know it was going to happen. all. >> I mean, I'm married to an Englishman, so. I I I understand sometimes um dancing is. is uh. >> yeah, is a challenge. You know, I could. never watch it. I'd be I'd be mortified, but it made me laugh. >> All right. Um we're going to end here. for now. We're going to talk again. Um. and. you know, we're going to talk a little. bit about your personal life and your. family. you do get a glimpse in this new. um documentary about you know your home.

life and how much it's changed. >> and so we're going to talk a little bit. about that. >> Thank you Lulu. >> That was good. >> That brought back a lot of memories. [music]. >> on the interview. We talked to our guest. twice. So I spoke with Simon Cow again. the next day when he was at his country. home. >> Okay. Lovely. Are we good? >> Cool. >> Can you hear me? >> I can hear you. Can you hear me? >> Yeah. Where are you, Lulu? >> Um, I'm in London and you are in the.

Cotswwells at your house. >> Yes. Yeah. I'm very happy here at Lulu. >> Even though it's pissing with rain. >> It's English weather. So, there's been a. lot of discussion in the music industry. about artists owning their work. You. know, the big one being, of course, Taylor Swift. They say, you know, we're. the ones singing. We're the ones in. front of the the microphone. and. shouldn't it be ours? >> And in other conversations, I've heard. you say that you regret not owning the.

One Direction name. And so I'm just I'm. wondering how you just sort of square. that. >> I think it depends on the circumstances. if I'm being honest with you. I think if. a band have formed themselves. uh and they come to me say and just say, "Look, we want funding and you know you. to be the label like I used to do." I. get it. Uh it's it's they they did it. if I was part of putting everything. together, it's almost like you're part. of the band. >> You know, over the years there have been.

complaints about contracts with artists. and yours, especially as pertains to X. Factor where some artists said they. actually didn't make any money when they. signed with your company because of low. low royalty rates. And I'm just. wondering if you think the contracts. were all fair. Is there a way that you. look at it in terms of being a business. person and in terms of being someone who. is creating and supporting artists? >> Well, um I didn't really get involved in.

those negotiations. If you ask me what. what anyone's royalty was, I actually. couldn't tell you. Lulu. >> genuinely. >> Yeah. Um, I mean, look, I I I think. I I would have to look I from I. guess you'd have to talk to both sides. I I suppose the people who are happy and. unhappy. I mean, some people were happy,

I guess, some people were unhappy. I. mean, that's life, I guess. I don't think it was unfair, Lulu. No. >> Okay. I want to talk about your personal. life. Um, >> you know, one of the things that was for. me quite interesting about you was. reading your authorized biography which. came out in 2012 and it made it pretty. clear that you used to party pretty hard. when you were younger. You were famously. adverse to commitment. You know, you.

were a man about town. There were a lot. of different partnerships. Do you think. that that was a fair characterization of. who you were back then? Well, yeah. I mean, I had quite a lot of. long-term, you know, relationships. You. know, most of my relationships have been. pretty long. Um, I'm still friends with. a lot of my my ex-girlfriends. I mean, genuinely, >> the book The book makes the point that. surprisingly, yeah, that you don't. really. >> Can I be honest with you, Lulu? I.

haven't read it. >> Oh, wow. Well, um, >> so you know more than I do. >> Yeah. But it does make the point that. your exes are friends of yours, but it. does also make the point that back then. you were, you know, a man about town. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Probably. >> So, you're now part of this family unit. You. have a long-term partner, Lauren, and. your son now, Eric. How has that changed. you? >> Well, uh, it saved me, if I'm being. honest with you, Lulu. I think I um when.

my mom passed away in 2015, it was after. losing my dad and then losing my mom. Uh. it was like feeling like an orphan. genuinely. And thank God she my mom, you. know, even though she had, you know, dementia, uh, and it was getting pretty. bad. >> Um, she, you know, she met Eric, um, and. you know what is, uh, amazing. And he he.

he remembers her vaguely because he was. really young. And my mom gave him this. um brown blanket. um you know just probably about three or. four feet long and to this day he will. not go anywhere without that brown. blanket. >> Your your son Eric um. was a major turning point as you. mentioned and you've described it as. sort of pulling you out of this very.

dark downward spiral that you were on. after your mother died. Yeah, I just I. don't know. I always had suffered from. depression. Um uh and I'd got to a point. where, you know, life my career was. going great, but for whatever reason, I. was just unhappy. Just really unhappy. Um and um you know that expression, is. this as good as it gets? I was kind of. feeling a bit like that actually. Um it.

was kind of like everything just felt. monotonous. Um and that was sort of it. Um and then. you know he kind of like it was like my. life changed when it when you know he. was he was born everything started again. if that kind of makes sense. >> Yeah. I mean what does it look like. exactly to sort of pull yourself out of. of that? I mean, what did you do.

practically speaking to to get yourself. >> into a different place? >> I used to work genuinely up until. sometimes 7:00 in the morning. Um, there. was always stuff to do and I found it. that time from like 1 to 7 in the. morning weirdly peaceful. Um. uh I I could really focus on the shows, you know, whatever we were doing, if we. were, you know, listening to songs, what.

there was always something, right? And. then um when Eric was about two, I he. must have been about that age because I. didn't get up until the afternoon. So I. never saw the morning. I hadn't seen the. morning for years. I actually used to. think, God, how could people work in the. morning? It just felt weird to me. And. um he came in one day and it was about. 2:30 in the afternoon and he went, "Dad, what are you what are you doing asleep?". And I went, "God, he's right. What am I.

doing asleep? I've got to readjust.". >> You know, Simon, in the in the two. conversations that we've spent with each. other, um. it does appear that you've sort of. softened. Would you say that that's an. accurate reflection of how you see. yourself at the moment? >> Yeah, I would say that. Yeah, for sure. Um, I'm I'm I'm more I think more. confident in myself. Um,

now um, you know, like we spoke about. yesterday, I'm not afraid to take on new. things. I like trying new things still. Uh, I'm very curious. You know, when you. mentioned the AI, I was thinking about. this overnight, the AI thing. I was kind. of thinking, is this smart or is it. exploiting people what they've done? I. actually don't know the answer to that. question. >> I really, really don't. >> And the fact that it's happened is a.

little bit scary. At the same time, I'm. sort of intrigued by it. I don't know. how you feel about it. >> Well, I don't know either. I find AI. scary mostly and exploitative mostly. Um, but. >> can I ask you a question? All right. The. question is, if you could have a button, green or red, green being yes, red being. no, and you were able to stop the. internet, what would you have done? >> Oh god. Oh, that's a good question. What.

um stop the internet? I guess knowing. now what we know. >> Yeah. You know, the internet has has. become an extraordinary tool for. advancement, but it we're sort of. petri dishes in a way. We're we're being. experimented on in ways that are. changing us fundamentally. And I don't. know the end of that story yet. So, I. don't know. What about you?

>> It would be stop. I pressed the red. button because I you know I just I was. thinking about this the other night. Weirdly it was kind of like I like the. time when we didn't have so much choice. So when something came out like I don't. know Jaws or Star Wars or whatever. It. was such a big deal and the fact that we. knew it was coming and we had to go. somewhere to watch it. It was such a fun. amazing time.

Uh, and I personally think that people. were happier then than now. I mean, a. lot of people would disagree with that, but uh, that's how I feel. >> I don't know. It's just a personal. thing. I was just curious what you what. you would say. >> Your answer is more interesting for. sure. Um. just in our in our last few minutes. as I was sort of mentioning. you you've sort of softened and.

I wonder what you make of the fact that. the rest of the world has gotten sort of. more vicious. because we see it in our culture, we see. it in our politics. as someone who. understood the power of the bully, that. it can rally people, that you were the. most popular member. of the panel um in all these shows. because you told it like it was. Does any of your experience with that.

give you insight on this moment? Well, I think um if we're talking about, you know, um what I wish then I wish. I guess, you know, when we make Got. Talent, we all say the same thing to. each other, which is this is just how. everything should be. We all get on well. with each other, you know, genuinely. Everyone's welcome. Everyone has a great. time, a great experience. I mean, you.

sat there and you experienced it. You. know, it's very in I was thinking about. that, the fact that you saw it and then. you kind of go, that's a great bubble to. live in. So, I sort of live in a slight. bubble if I'm being honest with you. Uh, in so much as I don't have a phone and I. don't read anything online or I don't. read newspapers. >> You don't watch Tik Tok, Instagram, nothing. >> No, I don't. Nothing. I have no idea. even what social media things I have. Uh, I I'm really genuinely oblivious and.

I do it for a reason because. I'm happier that way. Um, you know, it's. my choice and it's just I decided that's. how I wanted to live. And when you asked. me about, you know, being softer now, I. think part maybe that's part of the. reason is that I just don't get caught. up in anything, you know, so, you know, I don't want to change that. All right. Before we go, I want to get your take on.

a few things. >> Mhm. >> Um, who is your favorite current artist. who has nothing to do with you. >> Chapel? >> Ran. >> Ran. Yeah, >> she's great. >> Yeah. I I heard her first song. Eric. played it to me and I went, that is one. of the best best songs I've heard in. years. Do you watch reality TV? >> Are you a housewives guy?

>> No. >> Would you go on traders, celebrity. traders? >> Never. [laughter]. >> Never. >> No. >> All right. You've said before that you. uh wanted to be cryogenically frozen. Is. that still true? [laughter]. Because the technology has gotten a lot. better. >> Okay. I'll tell you a funny story. So, yes, I did think for a while. Okay. Well, we're all going to eventually. unfortunately die. That's that's life. What if then I I'll just freeze myself.

That was before, by the way, I was, you. know, a a dad. >> Then someone told me they chop your head. off. and then basically I think your brain's. frozen. So then the idea of coming back. some kind of robot in 3,000 years time, it's like, forget it. No, I'm not. interested. >> [laughter]. >> Even if it's your full body now, not. just the head. >> No, no, I don't want to. No. Uh maybe uh.

I actually do believe I think now I'm. I'm I do believe in God and I do believe. there's something I really do hope and. believe that there's something h good. that happens afterwards. I don't know. what it is. I always think about the. power of the universe and how little we. know about that. And it's kind of that. that unknown. And my mom had a lot of. faith which you know was really. genuinely made her happy. And I'm.

starting to think a lot about that. Not. because I'm getting older or I'm going. to die tomorrow. It's just does it make. me happy. Actually, yes, it does. >> I'm Lulu Garcia Navaro. >> And I'm David Marches. >> and we're the hosts of the interview, an. audio and video [music] podcast from the. New York Times. Every week we interview. fascinating and influential people from. all walks of life. >> Subscribe to our YouTube channel so. you'll never [music] miss an episode. >> So this is actually a pajama top. I.

ordered [music] in total. 150. Sounds excessive but I'm very. sensitive to fabrics. [music].