Scott Pelley on His Firing and the ‘Massacre’ at ‘60 Minutes’ | The Interview

There was a thumb on the scale for the. president's version of events that I. felt was a level of political influence. that I had never seen in 37 years at CBS. News. [music]. >> I'm Lulu Garcia Navaro and this is the. interview. It's hard to overstate the. impact of 60 minutes on journalism. And. that's what cigarettes are for. Most.

certainly. It's a delivery device for. nicotine. >> Most people in this country think you. are the face of evil, don't they? >> I'm just being me. >> Since its debut on CBS in 1968, it's. been the home of some of the most famous. [music] and lauded journalists. >> I asked you. as an American. >> from Mike Wallace and Ed Bradley, >> mortar shells going off. >> to Leslie Stall, >> Anderson Cooper, and until [music] this. past week, Scott P. We don't torture. people. College Shake Muhammad, we don't. torture people. >> Water boarding. We do not I don't talk.

about techniques. >> P was fired after [music] an explosive. series of events and much turmoil at. CBS, including a controversial financial. settlement with President Trump, the. sale of the network to David Ellison and. the appointment of Barry [music] Weiss. to lead CBS News. >> She was putting a thumb on the scale on. behalf of the administration. P along. with a number of other 60 Minutes. correspondents who were fired [music]. have now accused Weiss of editorial. interference and bias, charges that CBS.

and Weiss deny. [music]. We've included a fuller statement from. CBS News at the end of the episode. This. is Scott Pelly's first sitdown interview. since he was fired. [music]. Thank you so much for coming in. Um I. know that this is a very difficult. moment. You were just fired from the. news organization which you were at the. heart of for 37 years. >> I can't believe I'm hearing those words. [laughter]. >> CBS News. >> Yes.

>> I want to actually start by just asking. you how you're feeling in this moment. before we start how you got here. Well, if we want to talk about it at an. emotional level, the best thing that I. can imagine in terms of describing it is. that it's it's like your spouse was. murdered. Um, there's some moments of the day I feel. fine. There are some moments of the day. that um I just frankly uh fall apart uh.

when I least expect it. Not that there's. any particular trigger, but I I do want. to be clear uh that I do not. feel sorry for me. I don't care about. me. I'm fine. I care about these people that I left. behind. uh the people who are still. trapped there. and this institution. that I love so much.

Um you said that I've been there 37. years. I've been married 42 years. Uh so that's the depth of my devotion. >> Let's talk about how we got to this. moment. Um, a few days before your firing, several. high-profile 60 Minutes correspondents. and leaders were fired. Leading up to. that, there hadd been a lot of reporting.

about changes that were coming to 60. Minutes. Was that the sort of change you were. expecting? [snorts]. >> I No one saw the Black Thursday massacre. coming. This is our entire senior staff. People beloved Tanya Simon, our. executive producer. She's the boss. And. this was her triumph. She's the first. woman ever to be executive producer of. 60 Minutes. And she concluded this.

season. with a growth in our audience of 9%. which is unheard of in broadcast. television and a growth in our online. presence of. 190%. Last season we had 2.5. billion. views. That's a third of humanity. M. >> so we're riding high. This management.

team has been brilliant. Tanya has the. best first year of any executive. producer and I've worked for all of. them. [snorts]. And then and and then the night before. Tanya and I and Dragon Mahalovich deputy. etc. We're all at the Emmy Awards. >> and we win two Emmy awards. Within hours, all of those people have. been wiped out. And one-third of our correspondents.

have been fired. And at the same moment that that. happens, we are informed of our new executive. producer. [gasps]. His name is Nick Bilton. I'm sure he. must be a wonderful man, but no one had. ever heard of him. He has zero. experience in television news and no. experience in management. So imagine how.

we feel. when someone like that comes into a shop. like 60 Minutes. >> Explain to me exactly how you felt. >> Um shock, dismay, uh impossible to believe, searching desperately for an. explanation. >> [snorts]. >> knowing that an explanation would be. forthcoming and then not seeing that. No. executive at CBS News, uh, our.

editor-inchief, Barry Weiss, coming over. to 60 Minutes to explain to to talk with. us, to sit with us. That's a family. at 60 Minutes. My colleagues and I have. worked together 10, 20, 30 years. We. travel together. We dine together. We go. into literal combat together. My former boss and former producer, Bill.

Owens, [snorts]. saved my life. in a firefight. in Iraq. So, Lulu, these bonds are pretty tight. And when somebody. wipes out,

murders. a large number of your family members. People are hurt and shocked in disbelief. and just desperate for some explanation. And as you and I sit here today, there. still has been none. CBS leadership says. that they tried to get in touch with you. to talk about all of those changes um. before Builton's first day.

and you didn't speak to them. Why not? >> I'm almost 69 years old and if I've. learned one thing in life, it is not to. reflexively react when you feel that. way. And I thought, you know, I'm going to um. give it. a day or something. Um I'm too. emotionally wrought up. I'm going to say. the wrong thing. I'm not going to hear.

what they have to say. This isn't the. moment. Um it was incredible to me that they did. [snorts] reach out to talk to me uh. after wiping all these people out. I. mean, within hours. So, um, we had a baby shower at the house. >> and we got through the weekend and I. learned that u Nick Bilton was going to. speak to the 60-minute staff on that. next Monday morning. [snorts]. My wife and I uh had a long planned.

hiking trip in the Canadian Rockies. planned and I wasn't going to be able to. be at the meeting. and uh she and I talked about it. Realized that this was an existential. moment for 60 Minutes so we canled the. vacation so I could be there and that. was the first time um that I had an. opportunity to uh meet Nick Bilton. At. that meeting, you. spoke up very forcefully. Um, you asked.

him why he'd taken the job knowing, and. this is a quote, that you will never be. welcome here. Why did you decide to have. that first interaction with your new. boss in public and not behind closed. doors? >> It wasn't in public. It was behind. closed doors. >> I was with my family in a closed room. None of this was meant to be public. >> Mhm. >> But Lulu, imagine I'm walking into this. room. with these people who have devoted their.

lives to 60 Minutes. They have not received any kind of. explanation. They are waiting for Barry Weiss to walk. in the room in the hope that she's going. to explain why this tragedy has occurred. and why it was so necessary. And I'm waiting to see who comes in. And. it's uh Nick Bilton and one of um.

Barry's deputies. No Barry. People are a little shocked by this. As we're standing in there, Nick makes. his way to the front of the room. and does something absolutely. jaw-dropping to me. He pulls out his phone and begins. reading a statement off his phone. in a room full of 50 heartbroken people.

the callousness, the tone deafness of that. You could hear the groan in. [clears throat] the room when that. happened. Um, they'd put out a big spread of bagels. like we were all going to feel better. And also if I can give you a little bit. of context. >> please. >> What had happened a couple of days. before the meeting was so critical. Nick.

Bilton wrote an email to the staff sort. of introducing himself. and. it was. so insulting to the staff and so. insulting uh to the history of 60. Minutes. Um he told us in that email. that um it wasn't 1968 anymore. and he helpfully noted that gasoline. doesn't cost 32 cents anymore.

>> and suggested that we had all been. frozen in amber in 1968 when the program. first went on the air and that nothing. had improved. and he said in his email. that it was quote strange. end quote that [snorts] 60 Minutes is. only on the air at 7:00 Eastern time on. Sunday once a week. >> when we've been on the air 24/7. globally online for.

well over a decade. It betrayed the fact. that Nick Bilton didn't know anything. about us, didn't know anything about our. culture, and yet was being imposed on us. um as our new executive producer, our. new leader. So, people read that memo. It's very concerning. It's. heartbreaking. It's hard to compare this to anything.

other than something that actually could. happen to your family. It's a very. uh loving. and empathetic organization. and we were met with cold, callous. indifference. to what anyone thought. Why did you feel. that you were the person that needed to. get the answers to the questions that.

you had and everyone had at that. meeting? Why did you feel compelled to. speak up? >> It was fate. First of all, our entire. senior staff had been wiped out. They're. not there. [gasps] I looked around the. room. I'm the only correspondent there, which surprised me very much. I learned. that my colleagues were out shooting. stories, as they should be in the month. of June. But I'm the only correspondent. there, which surprised me. And I looked. around at my friends and colleagues in. the room and realized I was the senior.

person. Um, only I could do it. None of them. could be asked to take that risk. So. when I saw. Nick Bilton's email and then saw him. reading to my brokenhearted people off. his phone, um I felt that somebody had to stand up. for the broadcast. Not just the.

broadcast, but the people. There are people in that room who go to. war zones when they are pregnant. News rooms are sort of like the military. or the police or. the beautiful people at the FDNY down. the street. It is a lifethreatening. job in many instances.

and um very strong bonds, very emotional. bonds are found or are developed in that. kind of setting. And to have people. running CBS News who don't know that, have never felt that, and don't. understand it. is a tragedy I never expected to see.

>> You know, Barry Weiss came into the job. with a mandate to evolve and modernize. CBS News to reinvent legacy media. In that meeting, you said Weiss was, and. I'm quoting here, murdering 60 Minutes, language that you've used here. Can you explain to me what you mean by. that? You're using words like massacre, murder. What do you mean by that? >> It was the wholesale nature of it. Our. senior staff wiped out after a triumphal.

year. Let's remember that. I if the. ratings had collapsed or there was some. journalistic scandal about a story then. okay we deserve it but we had a. triumphal year so this is incredibly. difficult to understand Cecilia Vega. Sharon Alonsi our very best. correspondents. just sumearily fired for no stated.

reason and without explanation this is. onethird third of our correspondent. corps. So, this isn't like they fired. our boss, which they did. They wiped out a large number of people. One of the things Nick Bilton said in. that uh ill- fated email to the staff. was that he was excited to tell, I'm. paraphrasing here, he was excited to. tell the staff about the new crop of. correspondents.

And when I saw that, I thought, "Okay, they're going to fire all of us. eventually. >> That's the plan." He put it in writing. for all of us to see. [snorts]. And so that's why I use these, admittedly for a journalist, hyperbolic. terms. They capture the scale of what happened. You then do have a meeting with CBS.

leadership after this very contentious. um interaction. Can you tell me about. that meeting and and if you were at that. point going in expecting to be fired? >> Oh gosh. Furthest thing from my mind. It. hadn't occurred to me. Um, the president. of CBS News, uh, Tom Sowski, sent me a. note and said, "Can you come by and talk. to us?" And I said, "Absolutely." I. scheduled about an hour on my calendar.

for the meeting. I didn't know who was. going to be there uh, in the meeting. So, I walk in the door. and I see Barry Weiss is sitting in. there and I think, "This is terrific of. her. she she's come to this meeting and and. now I'm going to be able to ask her. these questions. She's going to be able. to explain what happened. >> But it really didn't occur to you that. you could be fired after so many of your. colleagues had been let go after you'd. had this, you know, very contentious.

interaction with your new boss. >> You know, some reporter I turned out to. be. Uh I just didn't connect the dots. I. mean, was this meeting contentious? Yes. But 60 Minutes is known for two things, a ticking stopwatch and hard questions. And we ask ourselves those hard. questions in the shop because they. sharpen us and make us better. There was. a screening once with Mike Wallace. And. Mike and the executive producer and.

founder of 60 Minutes, Don Hewitt, got. into a big argument about a script. >> [snorts]. >> Wallace jumps up in the middle of the. screening, throws his script up in the. air, and yells at Don, "Well, then you. write the effing thing.". One of those pieces of paper comes down. and slices an associate producer across. the face. He's bleeding now. He's got a. paper cut on his face. That was about a story.

>> [snorts]. >> The meeting that I was in was about. whether 60 Minutes was going to even. survive or not. >> So, you walk in and what was the energy. of the room? >> Hostile. Um, dismissive. Before I could take my. seat, Tom Sowski said, "This is a firing. offense.". >> I was confused. I wasn't sure who he was. talking about in the room, but it became plain very quickly that.

they were talking about me and they were. unhappy about the meeting that had. occurred. Um, a meeting that had ended in. thunderous applause. uh for me if I may say so because. somebody had stood up for the broadcast. So So I sit down like, "Okay, well let's. talk about it.". Um, Tom accuses me of physically. abusing.

Nick Bilton. This is a lie. I didn't come within 10. ft of Nick Bilton. In my life, I have. never put my hands on anyone in anger. Not one time. And when he was caught in that lie, he. said, 'Well, okay, I take that back. And. I said, 'Great. [snorts] Conversation. proceeded a little bit. I turned to.

Barry Weiss, who was sitting to my left, and I said, but let's, you know, let's. talk about the firings. Why were the. firings necessary? I'm not answering. that question. Well, how did Tanya Simon not lead the. broadcast brilliantly? I'm not answering. that question. Okay, Sharon Alonsi, Cecilia Vega. I mean, what possible reason could there be to. take them off the air? I'm not answering.

that question. So, now I'm detecting a. pattern [snorts]. that's going to go nowhere. She is still. going to stonewall about why she took. all these people out. So, I'm thinking that the meeting's going to. carry on. We're going to have a long. conversation. I'm going to hear from. them about what they think. They're. going to hear from me about what I. think. Um, the [clears throat]. temperature in the room is low, but it's.

very hostile from their side. I'm. speaking about the way I'm speaking to. you now. Very quickly after the meeting began, Tom Sabrowski said, "This conversation. is over.". I was stunned. [snorts]. I didn't have a 60-minute stopwatch in. that room. I don't know how long it. lasted really, but I think it was about. 10 minutes. So they tell me, that is to.

say, Tom Sabrowski tells me as I'm. walking through the door, "You'll have. our answer in a few minutes.". >> I went over to my office and much to my. surprise, um, all of my guys on my team. were still there. They wanted to know. what happened in the meeting. What was. that all about? Did they explain why our. people were fired? And um, I sat down in my office. It has. a big plate glass window that looks out.

on the newsroom and there were a whole. bunch of people standing out there, but. I didn't think anything of it. I'm. waiting to find out what my fate is. I. explained to my team, I think I just got. fired, but they haven't told me that. And then I look up and all those people. are still out there and staff members. and I don't think anything of it. And. then it hits me. This is a vigil. An hour goes by, two hours go by, three. hours go by, four hours go by, and I go.

back outside and said, "I'm leaving. you." They're been standing out there. for 4 hours. I said, "I'm leaving. You. guys have got to go home to your. families right now. I doubt they're. going to tell me tonight.". So, I packed up and left just so those. people would go home. And not long after. that, the email came through and said. that I'd been uh fired. >> Just to understand your.

position in this, you would have been. open to a path forward. You wanted to. remain at 60 Minutes. >> Absolutely. A path forward to me was a. obvious. uh conclusion for what this meeting was. going to be about. That's exactly what I. thought. Um, and I expected them to say, "Look, this is why we had to fire. everybody. I mean, you your questions, Scott, are valid, and here's here's why.

we did what we did." So, uh, stay at 60. Minutes. Absolutely. I It didn't occur. to me that this could happen. But Scott, in a meeting you accused. Barry Weiss, the head of the network, of. wanting to murder the show, of coming into 60 Minutes with the. agenda to dismantle the institution, and you did not think that that was.

going to have repercussions that could. lead to your firing. >> We used to be able to have conversations. like that at CBS News. Um the the. difference today is that the people. running CBS News will not be questioned. >> I want to take a step back because of. course all this. didn't happen in a vacuum. The saga really at CBS News began when. David Ellison, the son of Oracle. billionaire Larry Ellison, took over CBS.

as part of his purchase of Paramount. Um. there was a lot of turmoil around that. sale. the longtime previous owner of. Paramount and CBS Sherry Redstone. told my [clears throat] New York Times. colleague um. that she sold the company to Ellison in. part because after Hamas's attack on. Israel on October 7th, she wanted to. devote herself to causes around Israel. I'm sure there were other reasons as. well.

Did you ever speak to Miss Redstone. about the sale and how did you feel. about it? I didn't speak uh to Sherry Redstone. about the sale. Um I felt the sale was. very necessary. Um the company was in. financial trouble. It wasn't clear what. our path forward was going to be just as. a company. Um Mr. Ellison came in with a. lot of money behind him.

uh a young man of vision. and I thought this is going to be very. good for all of us. >> The very last thing that the previous. ownership did was pay a multi. multi-million dollar bribe to the. president uh to settle this frivolous. ridiculous lawsuit. Um and very shortly. after that somehow the Trump. administration approved the sale. So.

that lawsuit against 60 Minutes had. caused a great deal of concern in 60. Minutes. Paying the bribe broke our. hearts. Um no lawyer thought that was. necessary, but they did it to get the. sale through. And at that point, my. colleagues and I thought, great, that's. behind us. we have bright new leadership. with financial resources. We're in better shape than we were.

before. That was the theory. >> Just to give the context here, President. Trump had sued 60 Minutes over an. interview of Vice President Kla Harris. during the 2024 election. Um, as you. mentioned, uh, Paramount under Sher. Redstone settled the case even though. many legal experts believed that there. was no merit to the suit. And they paid. $16 million, uh, to the president. >> Um, Paramount denied that those two.

things were linked, that payment and. then the deal going through. [snorts]. >> And correct me if I'm wrong, am I. hearing you say that you supported the. sale to Ellison? had you lost confidence. in the leadership of Sher Redstone at. that point. >> They bribed the president to get the. deal done. So yeah, there was a massive. collapse of confidence in the previous. ownership. >> So the deal goes through and Ellison. takes over. What assurances, if any, did. you get from David Ellison and the new.

leadership that there wouldn't be. interference at 60 Minutes? Did you ask. for those asurances? Did you speak with. David Ellison? >> The morning the merger was announced as. complete, I was amazed. that as far as I know, the first stop. that David Ellison made in his new. empire was 60 Minutes CBS News. First. thing in the morning, here he he's. walking through the 60 Minutes offices.

He comes and walks into my office and. extends his hand and says, "I'm proud to. meet you, sir." He called me. I guess. I'm just old, but um and I told him how. wonderful it was to meet him. He walked. out into our newsroom and made a very. nice speech about independence, about. how important 60 Minutes was to the. corporation at large, and essentially. telling everybody that they were going. to take care of us. Um, we were walking.

on air. Uh, we liked him. Uh, he had the. financial backing to back up his words. And we thought a bright new era was. coming after all the previous. difficulty. >> Ellison then hires Barry Weiss to run. CBS News. Um, Weiss, we should say, is a. former opinion writer at the New York. Times who left to start her own. publication after claiming bias in the.

Times opinion section. Uh, I never. worked with her for the record. Uh, the. free press, which she launched, is. generally pro-Israel. It builds itself. as pushing against what it sees as the. mainstream media. What did you make of. her appointment? >> I was not familiar with her name. Uh, so. I did some research and discovered those. things that you just uh outlined. She was going to be the new. editor-inchief at CBS News. There never. had been a title like that at CBS News.

It's sort of a print title. It doesn't. really uh translate to television, but. she wanted to call herself that. What. concerned me was that she had zero. television experience. uh and had never managed a large global. operation like CBS News. Those were red. flags to me. But I thought, you know, David Ellison thinks she's the right. person for the job. We are absolutely.

going to welcome her, listen to her, and. uh give her the benefit of the doubt. I I mean, I'm surprised that you hadn't. heard of her. She's a lightning rod in. journalism. >> You know, she just hadn't crossed my radar. And if. I hadn't heard of Barry Weiss at that. point in time, that probably tells you. more about me than it does her. >> So, when Barry comes in, she has a.

meeting with senior 60inut staffers. And. in that meeting, she asked, and I'm. quoting, um, why does the country think. you're biased? Is that a correct assessment of that? >> I wasn't there. >> I see. >> But that is what I've been told by my. colleagues who were there and they were. shocked. That was sort of her hello to. the staff at 60 minutes. What was the. feeling about that particular opening.

salvo to the team? >> Uhoh. She, I am told, said something to the. effect of, "Why do you think the country. thinks you're biased?". But she didn't offer any kind of a. metric. You know, what's your metric? Why do why do you think so? Uh do you. have a poll? Is there uh market. research? What what are you talking. about? because we certainly didn't. believe that. And we just felt that she was making.

statements that perhaps she couldn't. back up and was coming into the news. division with hardened preconceived. notions that didn't seem to be thought. through. >> You have now accused Weiss of injecting, and I'm quoting here, falsehoods and. bias. uh this was in your parting. statement. into at least one of your politically.

sensitive stories. Can you tell me the. nature of that um complaint? What did. she specifically ask for? What story are. you talking about? >> As I recall, that's February. and my team and I are doing a story. about the protests in Minneapolis. against the ICE crackdown there. We've. interviewed Senator Ran Paul, Republican, because he's going to hold. hearings into this. And the fact that a.

Republican was going to do that was. quite newsworthy. So, we interviewed. Senator Paul and then built out a story. about what had happened. Uh, the killing. of Renee Good, the killing of Alex Prey, the protests. I felt it was very important to. identify that the protesters themselves. were being very aggressive and that they.

were half of the these confrontations. And so I instructed my producers to find. images over the past few weeks of these. protests in which we see the protesters. acting aggressively. Uh, we found a. picture of a protester chest bumping an. officer. We found a picture of an. officer being hit in the head with a. snowball. Uh, we pulled together a lot. of video of protesters screaming in the.

faces of officers because we were going. to talk about the killing of Prey and. the killing of good. And it seemed to me. important to tell the audience about the. entire context. In fact, I remember writing a line in. the story that said that the protesters. were pushing the boundaries of what it. means to peacefully assemble, taking the. language from the First Amendment. And I thought we'd done a really good. job with this. We also included a.

picture of Alex Freddy before he was. killed uh kicking out a tail light on a. police car and made a point of saying. this is Alex Freddy and this is what he. did. So the story goes through screenings uh. it's very wellreceived. There are notes. as always uh and we do rewrites as. always. Um but this is on a very tight. deadline. It's Sunday. were going on the. air that night. And in the case of.

stories that are, as we say, crashing, meaning right against the deadline, our. deadline on Sunday is noon. So, we work on all of these things. We. get the piece uh approved by everyone. and about 4 hours after our deadline, Barry Weiss sends an email to my boss, Tanya Simon. [gasps].

Two of the things in the email include, "Can we make the protesters look more. violent?". Now, I'm paraphrasing. I don't have the. quote, but that's what was communicated. to me. And the other thing was Renee Good's. car. You need to describe her as driving. toward the officer. [snorts]. This uh is not what you see on the.

video. On the video, you see uh the officer. standing slightly. off the front of the car, and you. clearly see Miss Good's wheels turned. completely as far as they will go away. from the officer. Uh but he shoots her uh in the head, kills her, and says something about her. in that moment that I can't repeat uh in.

polite company. So. we have gone out of our way in our plan. from the very beginning to show the. protesters for the responsibility that. they had. We had already scrubbed the. video archives looking for those scenes, but it somehow wasn't enough for Miss. Weiss. The video showed that the officer wasn't.

standing in front of the car and she. wasn't driving toward him. But that's. what the president said about that and. that's the way she wanted it described. To be clear, there were lots of videos. that showed different moments of that. interaction. >> and there was a big many analyses. subsequently about what exactly through. those various videos had actually. happened, >> including an excellent one by the New. York Times. The video that I showed in. our piece uh clearly showed the.

officer's feet. So, if he's standing in front of the. car, you can't see his feet. and it very. clearly showed that the uh wheels were. turned away from him uh what. [clears throat] appeared to be the. maximum. uh turn until the wheel had stopped. >> So you get those. suggestions um feedback from the sort of. editorial chief of CBS News.

What did you do? I mean did you do as. she asked? I asked my producers, uh, look, I told you to find violent video. of the protesters so we could represent. that accurately. Now, I want you to go. back and look again. Did we leave. anything out that's important? What What. did we make a mistake here? I don't. think so, but go back and look. And then. I sat down with a video editor and I.

went over the video of the Renee Good. killing over and over and over again, stop motion, slow motion, etc. And um. realized that the uh event was not as. the president said and not the way Barry. Weiss remembered it. And so um it's late. Our deadline was. noon. It's now almost five o'clock.

Uh, that's dangerous as hell. And so I decided that I wouldn't do. those things. I wasn't going to get in a. debate about it. I wasn't going to call. Barry Weiss about it. I was just going. to refuse to make those changes. >> Did you change any language in the. broadcast? Anything? >> Not that I recall based on her notes. But, uh, as you probably are aware, uh,

when you're doing a story, especially on. deadline, a lot of things happen. There's a lot of input, and you're just. scrambling to save everybody's skin. because you're going to have a crash if. you, which is what happened. Next day, I. didn't hear anything. Nobody called, nobody said anything. It occurred to me. that maybe Barry Weiss didn't see the. broadcast and didn't realize that those. changes hadn't been made. But um that's how that happened.

There was a thumb on the scale for the. president's version of events. that I felt was a level of political. influence that I had never seen in 37. years at CBS News. >> Why was that the interpretation? I mean, could she not have been trying to be. fair to the administration at a moment. of very high tension? >> [snorts]. >> She could have been trying to be fair to. the administration, except I felt that.

the story was abundantly fair uh to the. administration and uh and to the ICE. officers and to the the um Border Patrol. officers who were caught in that moment. Um we were being told to write a version. of events that conflicted with the video. account. I couldn't understand that we. had already done in my view the. important work of journalism to balance.

the story. Finally, the story was not. out of balance. Was not out of balance, [snorts] but there was a thumb on the. scale to push the balance a little. further in another direction. >> Is it possible to see this as the system. working? She had notes. you felt they didn't make. sense to take the piece ran and there. was no retaliation. >> Well, it was the interference is a.

problem. Um especially a story that's. been approved by the top editors. Um. and. the bigger problem Lulu frankly. is not any kind of political influence. The problem was the incompetence. Um, you don't break a deadline. Now, this is 4 hours after [snorts] that. episode of 60 Minutes came within 19.

minutes of not making air. The entire. hour of 60 Minutes. Um, it was the night of the Grammys. [snorts] 60 Minutes was the lead into. the Grammys. And we almost didn't have a. broadcast. 19 minutes. I can't imagine. that's ever happened before. Uh and I. pledged to myself at that time that no. matter what Barry Weiss wanted to do in. a story, I would never break the.

deadline again because we put the entire. network in jeopardy. >> Scott, I. want to ask you point blank, what did you think was going on with. Barry Weiss? Why did you think she was. asking for these things? >> The impression that I had at the moment. was that. she was.

representing, let me try, I kind of need to be a. little bit careful here because I don't. want to be hyperbolic. My impression at the time was that she. was putting a thumb on the scale on. behalf of the administration. Um. just constantly. looking out for the views of the. president.

Uh we're reporting those views. There's. nothing wrong with reporting those. views, but it was it was never enough. always needed more from the president, from the administration, that sort of. thing. The the balance was off. We've. been working for balance for decades, and for the first time in my career, the. balance was off. >> I mean, we should say Cecilia Vega, who was.

recently fired, also alleged. interference in 60 Minutes after she was. let go. Sharon Alonsy as well. You are. now doing the same. These are three. highly respected longtime journalists. who are basically echoing um the same. claim. CBS has denied any bias or. interference, saying in a recent. statement that changes and disputes were. merely the quote normal back and forth. between editor and correspondent that. happens in every newsroom. I just want.

to pause um before we go on. A more. generous interpretation of Weiss's. tenure might be that her missteps. have been due to a lack of experience, not deliberate bias or malice. You know, just thinking again about your comment. about her murdering 60 Minutes, could. inexperience be the real problem and. less a conspiracy to do away with CBS. News? I think inexperience is the larger.

part part of the problem. Uh at a. certain point I began to think that um a. political bias was going to be our big. problem. And then later it occurred to me that it. was the inexperience, the incompetence. that was the bigger problem. Uh the. breaking of deadlines, all that kind of. thing. I will never do that again. That. was a existential experience. M. >> I mean we are required to do our jobs.

Um and so the most difficult thing I. think for the staff is trying to make up. for all of these missteps in terms of. our production and in terms of the. technical aspects of television. It's. been enormously stressful. Another. high-profile 60 Minutes host, Anderson. Cooper, uh, declined to renew his. contract, too, this year. And at the end. of his final show, he went on air and.

said, "I hope 60 Minutes remains 60. Minutes." That was seen as a swipe at. Barry Weiss. Did you talk to Anderson. about why he did not renew his contract. and his reasons for leaving? >> I did not. >> Okay. Was his declining. to renew his contract. seen as a problem for 60 Minutes or. um or a sign that something was a miss?

I mean, how did you receive that news? >> Well, correspondents don't resign from. 60 Minutes. It's for people like me. It's the. greatest job in the world. There is. nothing else to aspire to. And so if a person of Anderson Cooper's. stature. uh decides that he has to leave the. broadcast, that's a indication. um that he has found his role there.

untenable. >> It's been reported that Barry Weiss was. upset that Anderson Cooper's comments. had aired uh in that way. >> That's my understanding. >> Do you think that was part of the reason. executive producer Tanya Simon was let. go? >> Yes. Um. yes, my understanding. from people directly involved in that. interaction. uh is that uh Barry Weiss was quite. livid that Anderson Cooper was allowed.

to say those things and that she Barry. was not consulted beforehand. uh which in our normal course of. business would not have been done. anyway. way. Uh, and I believe that uh. that was part of the reason. uh Tanya was let go. Uh, but she wasn't. let go for cause. She was let go to. create a space for the new person, Nick.

Bilton, uh, to come in. [clears throat]. Tanya um was completely blindsided by. this. She was told. that she was coming into a meeting. to discuss the past season and the next. season. [snorts] Kind of a lessons. learned and planning meeting. So, she doesn't go there with a lawyer.

or with um a a witness of any kind. She. walks in, she sits down. I'm told that. Tom Sabrowski and Barry Weiss are in. there. And Tom starts the meeting with. uh the nature of this meeting has. changed. Um we're letting [clears throat] you go. Uh and just told her she was fired and. had to get out of her office by 5:00. Can I give you a little bit of. background? The Simon family is legendary at CBS.

News. her father uh was a famous. Vietnam correspondent and then Bob Simon. covered every single war everywhere in. the world throughout his entire career. I was with him uh in uh Kuwait uh during. the Gulf War in 1990. We would stand on. the roof of the hotel and watch the. missiles come in. He taught me how to be.

a war correspondent. And then Tanya Simon comes in. She's at. the broadcast 30 years. There is no respect for that. Get out of the office by 5:00. What company in the world treats their. precious people in that way?

The callousness, the inhumanity, breathtaking. Complete lack of empathy. in this management for anyone who works. there. How can you have someone who. deserves so much respect? Tanya Simon.

spent her whole childhood. waiting for the call that her father was. dead, never knowing if she would ever see him. again. her whole childhood. Get out by 5:00. Make of that what you will. >> I can hear how much this.

has hurt you. [snorts]. >> Yes. It's like your spouse being. murdered. And I I don't care about me. It's not. about me. Um, I am not emotional about this because I. have lost this job. I've done it for a. long time. [snorts]. Um, I've had the greatest experiences.

But the people I leave behind, treated in this way, that breaks my heart. Uh, and it's going. to take me a long time to get over it. To to be perfectly honest, >> one of the arguments that Barry Weiss. has made about 60 Minutes in CBS News is. that they need to be brought into the. modern era. Nick Bilton also said um, in. a staff meeting with you that broadcast. is an ice cube that is melting.

Do you think they have a point and that. 60 minutes needs to change even if it's. reaching a huge audience now? Does its. metabolism, do the kinds of correspondence that it. has have to change to reach a younger. audience that interacts with media in a. completely different way and looks at. journalists perhaps like you as. something from a different era,

>> too old. Um, of course we have to reach. out to a younger and younger audience. Um, but their argument about joining the. internet age is just disingenuous. Um, it's almost as if Barry Weiss and. Nick Bilton were sealed in a time. capsule in 1990. and it just cracked open. They've just. discovered the internet and they're. running around telling everybody how. important it is at CBS News. Yeah. Uh, join the fight. Uh, we started our first.

60 minutes. online show, 60 Minutes overtime in. 2010. I shoot Tik Tok verticals or I used to. shoot Tik Tok verticals on every. assignment. I shot material for overtime. on every assignment. We're there. We're everywhere. >> So, you don't think 60 Minutes needs to. change?

My point is that 60 Minutes is. constantly changing, constantly. innovating. So I just find the charge that we at 60. Minutes were frozen in amber in 1968 and. nothing's ever changed since then. I. find that absolutely absurd and the kind. of argument that would be made by people. who just don't know what we are.

Nick Bilton sent a very consiliatory. note to the staff um. this past uh week. >> at last. >> He promised editorial independence. He. praised some of your longtime. colleagues, Leslie Stall, Bill Whitaker, John Woreram, and I just want to say my producer just. told me that while we've been talking, >> those three released a statement that. they are staying at 60 minutes. >> How does that make you feel? same reason I was staying. Uh we felt.

like I haven't talked to them. I assume. it's the same reason and we have had. conversations before this about staying. to maintain the principles of the. broadcast. Um if we leave, we can't. help. And that was my. opinion. Um, there have been other times. when Anderson left, when others were. fired that we could have stormed into a. meeting and quit, [snorts].

but those very distinguished. correspondents and myself did have. conversations about this over time and. decided that we were better working on. the inside and that we could influence. things for the better and we did. Uh, and it was my intention to stay and do. exactly that. Do you think though they. can trust those assurances? >> No. No. I would venture to say that. trust is broken. >> Do [clears throat] you think Barry Weiss.

needs to be removed? >> Oh gosh, yes. Um, look, she's a lovely person and her free. press organization that she founded has. been very successful. She's proven that. Um, great for her, [snorts] but. television's not her thing. Um, she brings an ideology into CBS News. where that is just anathema. And so, it's a terrible fit.

It's probably not her fault, but it's. just a terrible fit. She doesn't know. television. She doesn't understand how. it works. She doesn't have management. experience for a large or organization. like CBS News. So, uh, yes, I I do think. that we would be far better off without. her. Maybe she goes back to the free. press and has a sterling career, but. this is like somebody walking up to me.

and saying, "There's a 747. There are 400 people on it. We need you. to fly it to Paris.". I'm going to decline. because I don't have a clue. And it would have been so much better if. Barry Weiss had been offered this job. and said, "Oh, that's not for me. I. don't know how to do that.". >> President Trump reacted to you being. fired. >> Did he? >> He went on a podcast and called you a.

stiff. >> I'm surprised that the president of the. United States would bother toh notice, but Okay. Please, please tell me. I I'm. not aware of this. >> He also said you were part of this gang. of stupid, crooked people that don't. care about your country. >> Um, stupid. I can uh I I I can take that. Um, stiff. Yeah, probably. Um, don't care about the country.

[clears throat]. Uh, I've never worn the uniform, but I've been in combat for this country. in Afghanistan and Iraq, [snorts] Kuwait, been shot at, spent nights in foxholes filling up with. water in the desert.

I'm not aware that the president of the. United States has ever done any of those. things for his country. Please correct. me if I'm wrong. You become a journalist. because you love the First Amendment. You become a journalist because you love. the country. And while all the other descriptions uh. that the president used about me might. be applicable,

not that one. There is no democracy. without journalism. It can't be done. And that is why I am a journalist. >> Last few questions. >> You know, on Fox News, they're going to. just run the parts where I'm crying and.

say I'm a lunatic. [laughter] It's. >> the era we live in. >> It is the era we live in. [snorts]. >> Scott, you joined CBS as a reporter in. 1989. >> Uh, proudest day of my life. You know, as I was preparing for this interview, I. was thinking about in many ways how the. story of. modern CBS is the story of your own. career, too. Um.

when you look back. because your tenure is now over, what do. you hope your departure does? Um what do. you hope will happen now? >> My hope is uh that the leadership of. Paramount will say to themselves, okay, this isn't working. Um, we have broadcasts that almost don't. get on the air. We have respected.

journalists saying that there is a thumb. on the scale for one political party. over another. Um, we have a broadcast. which is uh among the most important in. America, the most successful in the. history of all of television. It was doing great. So why are we making these changes? We need adult supervision.

and at the moment we don't have it. We. have people who have been installed in. these jobs who through no fault of their. own, have no experience in television. It's not their fault, but they don't know what they're doing. And there's a. subtle political bias that I've never. seen at 60 Minutes before. [snorts]. And so, or at CBS News before. And so, that that is my hope. Uh, a.

return to sanity, a return to honor, a. return to courage. We used to have all. of those things in abundance, and now we don't. We can. save this. It's possible to land this plane. But right now, CBS News, in my view, is. on fire.

[music] Scott P, thank you so much for. coming in today. >> [music]. [music]. [music].

[music]. >> I'm Lulu Garcia Navaro. >> and I'm David Maresy. >> and we're the hosts of the interview an. audio and video [music] podcast from the. New York Times.

>> Every week we interview fascinating and. influential people from all walks of. life. Subscribe to our YouTube channel. [music] so you'll never miss an episode.